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Thread: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

  1. #1
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    Default Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    Something that has come under discussion across the forums recently is the wish to have somewhere on the forums for people to discuss and post updates on their games no matter who they are managing and without the restrictions that some forums have.

    Currently I can think of a few places where this is happening in some form or another:
    • FM Stories - which has a very particular style which does not fit into this.
    • LLM - again, has a very particular style which does not fit into this.
    • The OTF FM thread - seems an odd place but quite a bit goes on here, although it is restricted to the one thread.
    • Here - with the slight exception of The Career Thread the threads here all heavily structured, which is not what everyone is after.
    • GPTG - the club threads in there are used for a combination of player/team discussion and career discussion.
    I've been in discussion with Cleon from GPTG and one option would be to split the club threads from GPTG into player/team discussion (GPTG) and here (career discussion). This would mean that this forum would gain a whole load of new threads based around the popular clubs where people can discuss their careers managing them without the need for the specific focus that the other forums offer. For the not so popular clubs, a more general thread can be used, similar to the current Career Thread.

    I'm thinking ahead to FM09 here, so let me know what you think.

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    Me and Dafuge are discussing this still and wanted some general feedback

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    I'm not sure if it would be good or bad tbh

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    Why you say that? what good and bad points do you see?

    It seems logical that this forum is used for career updates and the GPTG used for discussing transfers and everything player related. If modded right, this could be very good and make threads seem less cluttered and possibly get more users doing the challenges.

    Id love to hear some of the positives and negatives from other people though

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    I put my point across in the Career thread but to reiterate really as long as it doesn't fuel abuse of the forum by rogue's who come into this forum from the GPTG/LLM and post rubbish about their one season with whoever and never post again. I like to read the progression of clubs with certain users and as long as that continues then i'm all for it and support the idea.

    Question, do you mean new thread will be started for specific teams like i.e Newcastle or Bournemouth?

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    Quote Originally Posted by ToMexico!! View Post
    I put my point across in the Career thread but to reiterate really as long as it doesn't fuel abuse of the forum by rogue's who come into this forum from the GPTG/LLM and post rubbish about their one season with whoever and never post again. I like to read the progression of clubs with certain users and as long as that continues then i'm all for it and support the idea.

    Question, do you mean new thread will be started for specific teams like i.e Newcastle or Bournemouth?
    Me and Dafuge have a pretty good idea who the idiots would be, if anyone was caught taking the mic, we'd soon sort them out. They'd only do it once trust me . But yeah, I get the feeling this appeals to the people who prefer to see progression and read it like yourself.

    And yes all the big or popular clubs would get their own threads. Smaller ones would be more generalised like league two thread etc. But I'm guessing a lot of threads would appear.

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    The only thing i'm really worried about is there being 100's of club threads cluttering it up the forum. We have a 'Lower League Management' couldn't we have a 'Bigger League Management' for people managing teams in the top 2 or 3 tiers?

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulHartman71 View Post
    The only thing i'm really worried about is there being 100's of club threads cluttering it up the forum. We have a 'Lower League Management' couldn't we have a 'Bigger League Management' for people managing teams in the top 2 or 3 tiers?
    There would be lost of threads but not all at the top of the forum. We'd have a sticky thread with all the related threads in one place, so they can be found easily. Or maybe if we got permission we could ask for a sub forum for club threads, but we'd need to check with SI. There are many things we can do and consider though, to keep it user friendly and so its less in your face, so to speak.

    Check out this thread http://www.community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=29636 this is the sort of thing we'd want, only quality threads witha good opening etc.

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    So, all the club threads will be stickies?

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulHartman71 View Post
    So, all the club threads will be stickies?
    No, there would be 1 sticky thread with links to the club threads, same as in GPTG

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulHartman71 View Post
    So, all the club threads will be stickies?
    No, there could be a stickied thread with links to all the club threads, plus all the general ones to cover all the other clubs.

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    So, the club threads wouldn't actually come up on the list of threads?

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulHartman71 View Post
    So, the club threads wouldn't actually come up on the list of threads?
    They would, unless a sub forum could be created which is something that hasn't really been looked into yet.

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    As far as I'm concerned, I think the way things are at the moment is fine. TBH, I'm not a big fan of that idea because it would end up meaning that the team thread on the GPTG would only be about discussing players and you wouldnt be able to post your whole season summaries etc on there. I'm one of those who prefers to be on just one forum (GPTG) and dont really visit the others much, if at all. And I'm sure the problems will still remain because then you'll have people posting about their careers on the wrong forum and asking for help on players on the wrong forums (if that makes sense).

    I dont know if you guys are looking for other ideas but I think the best way to handle this would to just split the good player and team guide forum tbh. Make one forum which is only about players and make one forum which is only about teams/clubs. So nobody could come into the players forum and post their teams and ask which players to sign and nobody could go onto the teams forum and ask about a particular player or players. Or atleast that is how it would work in theory.

    I know it would seem a little contradictory since the teams would obviously consist of players. But I think it could work with a few modifications. It would definitely make it less cluttered if the two things are in different areas.

    Just an idea.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Hows about a completely brand spanking new sub-forum :-D

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulHartman71 View Post
    I'm not sure if it would be good or bad tbh
    I think one of the major pros for this forum would be the fact that this would bring in a huge amount of traffic, which is something that some of the threads in here have been suffering from without.

    The major con I can see is that there will be a lot more active threads on the first page, but since the bottom half of this forum is made up of threads that haven't been posted in for ages I can't see that it would really be a big problem.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    I am all for this idea. It would increase the userbase of our forum, which can only be a good thing. Providing, of course, that it attracts a much higher proportion of good:bad users.

    Also, I forsee the same problem that Paul mentioned. If the moderating continues to be as good as it currently is, then I see no other ways why this wouldn't work.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by birdy123 View Post
    Also, I forsee the same problem that Paul mentioned. If the moderating continues to be as good as it currently is, then I see no other ways why this wouldn't work.
    Creep

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge View Post
    Creep
    Don't force me to change my mind

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by PoopyPants View Post
    Hows about a completely brand spanking new sub-forum :-D
    I think that career discussion and the challenges go hand in hand, especially the way people have taken to reporting on them in this forum. Whilst a brand new forum might be good it would probably kill off this forum completely.

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    Default Re: Expanding this forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions please

    Quote Originally Posted by theincrediblehulk View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, I think the way things are at the moment is fine. TBH, I'm not a big fan of that idea because it would end up meaning that the team thread on the GPTG would only be about discussing players and you wouldnt be able to post your whole season summaries etc on there. I'm one of those who prefers to be on just one forum (GPTG) and dont really visit the others much, if at all. And I'm sure the problems will still remain because then you'll have people posting about their careers on the wrong forum and asking for help on players on the wrong forums (if that makes sense).

    I dont know if you guys are looking for other ideas but I think the best way to handle this would to just split the good player and team guide forum tbh. Make one forum which is only about players and make one forum which is only about teams/clubs. So nobody could come into the players forum and post their teams and ask which players to sign and nobody could go onto the teams forum and ask about a particular player or players. Or atleast that is how it would work in theory.

    I know it would seem a little contradictory since the teams would obviously consist of players. But I think it could work with a few modifications. It would definitely make it less cluttered if the two things are in different areas.

    Just an idea.
    This is basically why we are trying to get everything sorted and in 1 place, rather than spread out everywhere. I want to keep GPTG forum about players and not achievments as such, as most of the threads in here cover that aspect.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    this forum is used for career updates and the GPTG used for discussing transfers and everything player related
    Before I mention my thoughts on the idea, I'd just like to ask some questions. As someone who's never, ever been in the GPTG forum, I can't say how it does or doesn't work, but the thought of Updating in one forum, then discussing my players and transfers in another ludicrous. It would be a lot of bother just to do both, and I could see people either doing one, or none of the mentioned.

    Smaller ones would be more generalised like league two thread
    I had pondered the idea, but upon though, what happens when the player gets promoted or relegated. Are they no longer allowed to post in that thread, and must switch their game into another, or would they simply stay in there, and perhaps become the only person posting, feeling alone that no one is there to appreciate that they took Redbridge FC to the Premiership?

    Check out this thread http://www.community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=29636 this is the sort of thing we'd want, only quality threads witha good opening etc.
    I notice on this thread, a lot of people are asking others for hints and tips on staff and players. Again, with players that get to 2040 and some to 2010 - would this not further seclude the threads, especially as if "Joe Bloggs FC" only has 2 posters in it, and one advances while the other is a casual player.


    And yes all the big or popular clubs would get their own threads
    Don't you think that if you secluded all the clubs to their own thread, people would be less likely to read up on your career, other than people playing the same game as them. It would damage the atmosphere in this forum, and you would be left with Arsenal supporters licking the bottom of other Arsenal supporter, and the same with any other club thread. I don't think this would benefit anything at all, and cause divide within the forum.

    I think one of the major pros for this forum would be the fact that this would bring in a huge amount of traffic,
    Do we want traffic, or quality posters? We've all seen what happens to traffic. 1,000 new sign ups, 998 of them don't even get past the sign up stage, 1 of them lasts half a season and the other goes on for the entire length of FM, while only 2 of the original sign up members still track it. IMHO, if you want traffic, then put a big red arrow and a "Free Money" sign underneath it next to the forum, because it'll attract a similar brand of posters. But if you want genuine posters, who are here to help build a community, then I can only suggest moving the forum above Bugs, Data, Translation, Editors and Skinning forums, at the very least. There is debate as to weather or not it belongs above forums such as FMS or T&TT, because all are used frequently, but for those mentioned, if people want them and don't know where they are, they generally post in GD anyway, and get directed with a link, rendering it pointless that those forums are in the position they are.

    To summarize. I'm not entirely sure this would be a great thing, based upon my own argument. however, I'm all for giving things a shot, and am honestly not 100% certain what would happen. As mentioned, I'm not a fan of GPTG, so don't know how they work, or why this needs to be done, so if someone could explain to me, with some detail what would be changing, I'd appreciate that.

    I will say this. For people who are just looking to start a "Hey Guys, this is my career" thread and post at their own will, while others read up on there careers, I think this would be a great idea.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    If I were to continue playing my dafuge challenge with Chippenham, would I then post it in a Chippenham thread or a Dafuge challenge thread?

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Damn, that's one nice argument you have there Nep

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Thanks for your input Nep, I'll do my best to answer your questions or add to the discussion.

    Before I mention my thoughts on the idea, I'd just like to ask some questions. As someone who's never, ever been in the GPTG forum, I can't say how it does or doesn't work, but the thought of Updating in one forum, then discussing my players and transfers in another ludicrous. It would be a lot of bother just to do both, and I could see people either doing one, or none of the mentioned.
    Currently the club threads in the GPTG contain a mixture of the 'who should I sign' type stuff along with the career type updates that you are used to in this forum. The split would allow the GPTG to focus on player discussion (which is what it was designed for) while at the same time giving people a place to go to should they wish to discuss their careers. Naturally there will still be a bit of cross over where players will be discussed here but it will be something that will be up to the moderators to keep an eye on.

    I had pondered the idea, but upon though, what happens when the player gets promoted or relegated. Are they no longer allowed to post in that thread, and must switch their game into another, or would they simply stay in there, and perhaps become the only person posting, feeling alone that no one is there to appreciate that they took Redbridge FC to the Premiership?
    My idea would be that there would be club threads for people who want to manage one club only and separate threads for people taking various different general starting points, a bit like the career thread is now.

    I notice on this thread, a lot of people are asking others for hints and tips on staff and players. Again, with players that get to 2040 and some to 2010 - would this not further seclude the threads, especially as if "Joe Bloggs FC" only has 2 posters in it, and one advances while the other is a casual player.
    These types of threads would only be used for the most popular of clubs, there would be no point for example to have a Wycombe Wanderers thread.

    Don't you think that if you secluded all the clubs to their own thread, people would be less likely to read up on your career, other than people playing the same game as them. It would damage the atmosphere in this forum, and you would be left with Arsenal supporters licking the bottom of other Arsenal supporter, and the same with any other club thread. I don't think this would benefit anything at all, and cause divide within the forum.
    The other option I was considering was to have a 'big clubs' type thread, it may be the case that the individual club threads are sparse or not neeeded at all. It all depends on what sort of numbers take part in the threads.

    Do we want traffic, or quality posters?
    Obviously this sort of thing is very hard to predict. I imagine that the initial traffic will be focussed towards the sort of threads they were associated with before, I can't see them suddenly starting massive of new sign up threads for example.

    To summarize. I'm not entirely sure this would be a great thing, based upon my own argument. however, I'm all for giving things a shot, and am honestly not 100% certain what would happen. As mentioned, I'm not a fan of GPTG, so don't know how they work, or why this needs to be done, so if someone could explain to me, with some detail what would be changing, I'd appreciate that.
    The main reason this is being considered is that there currently isn't a place on the forums for people to discuss their save games, which is something that has cropped up on various forums. I've been keen on expanding the career thread idea to make it open for everyone to take part, which in turn would give the people posting in the GPTG forum somewhere to discuss their careers, since that forum isn't really designed for that.

    In a nutshell, I'm proposing that this forum changes from the challenges, sign ups and experiments forum into the challeneges, sign ups, experiments and career discussion forum. The major change in this forum would be the addition of a load of new threads where people would update on their games in the way people have done in the career thread.

    I will say this. For people who are just looking to start a "Hey Guys, this is my career" thread and post at their own will, while others read up on there careers, I think this would be a great idea.
    In a way, this is the idea, only it will not be a case of people just starting a new thread when they start a new game. It would be structured in such a way that there is always a relevant thread for people to post in, without starting a new one. With the new forum software it would even be possible to move posts from an existing thread to a new one, so for example if a big clubs thread was started and a significant number of people were managing Bayern Munich, a Bayern Munich thread could be started by moving all of their posts to the new thread.

    Obviously this is still in the ideas stage so if you've got any questions keep them coming, and if there's anything I haven't answered well enough please feel free to ask more questions.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by MikaelS View Post
    If I were to continue playing my dafuge challenge with Chippenham, would I then post it in a Chippenham thread or a Dafuge challenge thread?
    There wouldn't be a Chippenham thread as that would come under the 'dafuge's challenge thread'. The individual club threads would only be started on a needs basis if one club is dominating a particular thread and warrants its own.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    But that will still mean a LOT of club threads, I imagine all of the Premiership will need their own one, then a few from Championship, Leeds and Nottingham Forest normally have one, then you have all the big clubs abroad, at least 30/40 imo

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulHartman71 View Post
    But that will still mean a LOT of club threads, I imagine all of the Premiership will need their own one, then a few from Championship, Leeds and Nottingham Forest normally have one, then you have all the big clubs abroad, at least 30/40 imo
    By the looks of it there's about 20 on the first page of GPTG, this forum has threads on the first page that haven't been used for over a month.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    The thread in OTF is good in my opinion. There are people who want to ask something, to make stories about his/her careers, etc. without any restriction. Why would we make several threads? The only way that I see is making a "career" forum. It would contain "English leagues career", "Spanish leagues career", "French leagues career", "Other leagues career", etc.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by georginho_juventusygr View Post
    The thread in OTF is good in my opinion. There are people who want to ask something, to make stories about his/her careers, etc. without any restriction. Why would we make several threads? The only way that I see is making a "career" forum. It would contain "English leagues career", "Spanish leagues career", "French leagues career", "Other leagues career", etc.
    This is basically what I'm suggesting, only instead of making a new forum I'm suggesting it should be combined with a forum which is already catering for this sort of thing to an extent.

    This is not intended to replace the OTF thread, that is something which is up to the OTF mods.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    the idea of being able to talk about games without the restrictions of the other forums (whether LLM, FM stories or whatever else) is a good idea...should be a free as possible.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    A good idea in my opinion. We could just make a link in OTF to this forum. (Although some people would be lazy to switch.)

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Yeah I think including all of the club threads from GPTG wouldn't be a bad idea. Obviously there would be a bit of a mess at the start but after a while once it's settled down it should be fine.

    If you do it for the start of FM09 then it means that any additional half hearted challenges and signs up that are produced will just be absorbed into the mess that will happen anyway.

    I think that if the move was to happen though it would have to be made clear as to what goes where (as I'm sure it would be), but it would be more beneficial for everyone if this forum was more publicised by SI - especially if the scenario idea that has been discussed comes to fruition as well.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    One of the things I particularly like about this sub forum is that it is not frequented by many of the idiots who are so prevalent elsewhere.

    I think that creating somewhere for everyone to post "update threads" is an excellent idea, but I can think of no reason whatsoever why it should be done in CSU&E.

    If there is a demand for a forum to be created to house "Update threads", then by all means create one, but don't think for a minute that just lumping them all in here because none of the other forums want them is a good idea.

    I think this is an awful idea.

    If there is a big enough demand then create a seperate forum.

  35. #35

    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    The first question to be asked is what is the purpose of the Challenges and GP&TG Forums (what kind of posts belong/are wanted there).

    Whilst the LLM and Stories Forums are for specific methods of play, the Challenges Forum doesn't have a specific style.

    I have no problem with having all other Save Game Discussions in here - if there is more acitivity in here then any extra rubbish should just disappear down the forum - and if it gets too busy sub-forums could always be made in the future. (Though to be fair, looking through the GP&TG forum, the stuff that would go here isn't that many threads).

    The main question is what is wanted in the GP&TG forum? - Just had a quick look and the larger more popular threads seem to be the Save Game/Story/Team Guide Threads. If these are the ones that will be moved in the future, and if you have a community like say the LLM or OTF forums, then moving them may gut that forum.

    The opening post of those threads seem to be a Team Guide, that then as they go on start turning into a story - they may become disjointed in the future, if the opening post as a guide is in the GP&TG Forum, then the users progress is here, and questions and advice are over their.

    One solution is to have the GP&TP discusing the players still, and have only the Team Guide bit of the longer threads there - discussing background on club, current squad, and any stories regarding peoples progress through the game with that team posted in here.

    Then have threads for some of the popular teams, or a country thread to discuss general saves in that country. A general thread to discuss any old game you are playing on FM etc...

  36. #36
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Well said Jimbo - Heart on sleeve etc etc.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    sounds like a good idea to me - among other things it would provide a home for threads that involve lower league management, but that don't stick to the bizarre rules required in the llm forum

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    If each "major" club were to get it's own thread, then I would be completely and utterly against this as I believe it would ruin the atmosphere of CSE and create such a huge amount of clutter that it will destroy the community. Let me explain:

    With 30-40 threads on major clubs together with more general ones, and saying that there are 20 or so used quite actively, yes it would bring activity to this forum, but it would so something else. It would stop new challenges, new AI experiments, and new sign-ups from getting the exposure they need, near the top of the forum, to grab users attention and get people to look at them.

    The beauty of CSE is that threads can get attention from users when it hasn't been posted in a week. An AI Experiment, and I mean a meaningful detailed one, cannot be updated continuously, and is normally updated by one person alone. Now people will follow it, but they won't post in it that often and nor will updates come that often. It will however, under the proposed changes, quickly sink down the forum and gather little attention.

    The same can be said for new challenges, of course the established challenges like Dafuge's and Gundo's will be perfectly fine due to the volume of users, but other challenges which need to be near the top to get attention and users will be relegated down the list of threads rather quickly and be cluttered up with "Man Utd Career Games", "Liverpool Career Games", "Real Madrid career games discussion".

    The beauty of this forum is watching a sign up, an experiment, or a challenge which is quite small build up a following over time, build up discussion, and build up interest. This will be lost if there are dozens of non related threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by NepentheZ
    Don't you think that if you secluded all the clubs to their own thread, people would be less likely to read up on your career, other than people playing the same game as them. It would damage the atmosphere in this forum, and you would be left with Arsenal supporters licking the bottom of other Arsenal supporter, and the same with any other club thread. I don't think this would benefit anything at all, and cause divide within the forum.
    I completely agree with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge
    The other option I was considering was to have a 'big clubs' type thread, it may be the case that the individual club threads are sparse or not needed at all. It all depends on what sort of numbers take part in the threads.
    It could be sparse but if it is, it defeats your major pro for implementing this "I think one of the major pros for this forum would be the fact that this would bring in a huge amount of traffic,"

    Thus making the change worthless.

    I also believe, that despite whatever moderating or rules laid down, that any clubs thread will just turn into club discussions on who to buy, sell, keep from the youths and will be become less and less a career trajectory and more a club discussion.

    Furthermore, how does club threads or even league/country threads account for career progression and moves.

    To me, this can all be better handled by the career thread.


    I'd also like to add that if the demand is there for club career threads, then create a separate sub-forum, I don't want them in here. A better way to increase users and attention for this forum is to position CSE, FMS and dare I say it (cos I think most of them are arrogant and insular) LLM higher up the list of forums and certainly above bugs, languages and editor forums!

    We build communities and keep people interested, we add to FM and give SI's customers reasons to keep playing, keep buying, and keep improving the game by involving them.

    People who frequent the bugs forum, the editor forum, data issues, and the guides will go looking for them, they know what they want. Users find the community forums by chance, or out of interest. I know I didn't discover CSE until a while after I joined, because it is so far down.

    So please, don't implement this. Create a separate forum for them, and move the community forums of CSE, FMS, and LLM further up and see the difference, because it would be huge.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbokav1971 View Post
    One of the things I particularly like about this sub forum is that it is not frequented by many of the idiots who are so prevalent elsewhere.

    I think that creating somewhere for everyone to post "update threads" is an excellent idea, but I can think of no reason whatsoever why it should be done in CSU&E.

    If there is a demand for a forum to be created to house "Update threads", then by all means create one, but don't think for a minute that just lumping them all in here because none of the other forums want them is a good idea.

    I think this is an awful idea.

    If there is a big enough demand then create a seperate forum.
    One of the arguments for including them here is that this forum already caters for this type of thing to a certain extent already, moving them to a brand new forum could potentially render this forum extinct. Since the split from GQ, the threads in this forum have suffered from a lack of access of people regularly visiting, expanding the forum to cater for something that is wanted across the forums could kill two birds with one stone.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeltmurrayuk View Post
    The first question to be asked is what is the purpose of the Challenges and GP&TG Forums (what kind of posts belong/are wanted there).

    Whilst the LLM and Stories Forums are for specific methods of play, the Challenges Forum doesn't have a specific style.

    I have no problem with having all other Save Game Discussions in here - if there is more acitivity in here then any extra rubbish should just disappear down the forum - and if it gets too busy sub-forums could always be made in the future. (Though to be fair, looking through the GP&TG forum, the stuff that would go here isn't that many threads).

    The main question is what is wanted in the GP&TG forum? - Just had a quick look and the larger more popular threads seem to be the Save Game/Story/Team Guide Threads. If these are the ones that will be moved in the future, and if you have a community like say the LLM or OTF forums, then moving them may gut that forum.

    The opening post of those threads seem to be a Team Guide, that then as they go on start turning into a story - they may become disjointed in the future, if the opening post as a guide is in the GP&TG Forum, then the users progress is here, and questions and advice are over their.

    One solution is to have the GP&TP discusing the players still, and have only the Team Guide bit of the longer threads there - discussing background on club, current squad, and any stories regarding peoples progress through the game with that team posted in here.

    Then have threads for some of the popular teams, or a country thread to discuss general saves in that country. A general thread to discuss any old game you are playing on FM etc...
    The main purpose of the GPTG was to discuss players and particular players which may be good for certain teams. Currently it is being used by people to discuss their careers at those clubs, which isn't really what it was designed for. I've got no doubt that moving the career discussion element from that forum would ruin it, in fact I think it would have a positive effect on the forum focussing it towards what it was designed for.

    I think if a split was to happen, we would have to make it perfectly clear well in advance what sort of things were expected in the different forums.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    I think having threads for each club defeats the point dafuge initially raised in the career thread earlier on - people would then just be charting thier progress with a specific club whereas the Career Thread was originally intended to get people playing games where they moved around to take on new jobs/challenges in the same save game.

    I think the best thing to do would be to create a few different career threads with different starting points. Then you would have the 'Work Your Way Up From The Bottom Career Thread' for those who want to start unemployed with Sunday League rep as well as the 'In At The Deep End Career Thread' for those who want to start with a pro/international footballer rep. I guess it would be up to the mods to monitor and make sure people are starting out in the right thread. In addition to those, we could have an 'International management career thread' and regional threads such as 'The Asian Careers Thread' etc.

    Individual club threads would overwhelm the forum too much and actually create less interest in the challenges and other threads. Players would just start up their Man U/Barca game and ignore some of the really interesting smaller challenges like the San MArino Double and Britain/India Challenge. In my opinion, if threads based on saves played at one club are really desired, a seperate forum would be the best way to go. However, if 'career' discussion is desired, the threads should be more general and could easily fit in here.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Wegason, thanks for your input, I'll try to respond to some of your points.

    If each "major" club were to get it's own thread, then I would be completely and utterly against this as I believe it would ruin the atmosphere of CSE and create such a huge amount of clutter that it will destroy the community. Let me explain:

    With 30-40 threads on major clubs together with more general ones, and saying that there are 20 or so used quite actively, yes it would bring activity to this forum, but it would so something else. It would stop new challenges, new AI experiments, and new sign-ups from getting the exposure they need, near the top of the forum, to grab users attention and get people to look at them.

    The beauty of CSE is that threads can get attention from users when it hasn't been posted in a week. An AI Experiment, and I mean a meaningful detailed one, cannot be updated continuously, and is normally updated by one person alone. Now people will follow it, but they won't post in it that often and nor will updates come that often. It will however, under the proposed changes, quickly sink down the forum and gather little attention.

    The same can be said for new challenges, of course the established challenges like Dafuge's and Gundo's will be perfectly fine due to the volume of users, but other challenges which need to be near the top to get attention and users will be relegated down the list of threads rather quickly and be cluttered up with "Man Utd Career Games", "Liverpool Career Games", "Real Madrid career games discussion".

    The beauty of this forum is watching a sign up, an experiment, or a challenge which is quite small build up a following over time, build up discussion, and build up interest. This will be lost if there are dozens of non related threads.
    I would be aware that allowing such a large number of club threads could swarm the forum, swamping out the challenge, sign up and experiment threads. Perhaps one way to combat this would be to initially restrict everything to a small number of threads, then expand to individual threads when the need occurs. The current forum software allows us to move posts and merge threads so this would be a possibility to keep the potential large number of club threads down.

    One other way of promoting the challenges, sign ups and experiments is the stickied index threads, which we had in the old forum but don't currently have. I think this forum could benefit from a stickied thread indexing all the relevant threads from each area for easy access, which is something I intend on working on.

    It could be sparse but if it is, it defeats your major pro for implementing this "I think one of the major pros for this forum would be the fact that this would bring in a huge amount of traffic,"

    Thus making the change worthless.
    What I meant by that was that certain club threads would not be needed (for example Bayern Munich) since the demand would be low, so these sorts of clubs could be combined into one thread. This was one way which the potentially large number of club threads could be curbed (as mentioned previously).

    I also believe, that despite whatever moderating or rules laid down, that any clubs thread will just turn into club discussions on who to buy, sell, keep from the youths and will be become less and less a career trajectory and more a club discussion.

    Furthermore, how does club threads or even league/country threads account for career progression and moves.

    To me, this can all be better handled by the career thread.
    My suggestion was to have separate threads for various starting points and aims, so if your aim was to start with a particular club and move around you knew exactly which was the relevant thread. One of the things which I think should be a rule in each thread is that you state your starting situation (reputation, leagues loaded etc.) and your aims, so it is clear which thread is appropriate.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    I intended on just staying out of this conversation but I like the way it is now. If this is part of the overall changes then I'm not too keen on them.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by DodgeeD View Post
    I think having threads for each club defeats the point dafuge initially raised in the career thread earlier on - people would then just be charting thier progress with a specific club whereas the Career Thread was originally intended to get people playing games where they moved around to take on new jobs/challenges in the same save game.

    I think the best thing to do would be to create a few different career threads with different starting points. Then you would have the 'Work Your Way Up From The Bottom Career Thread' for those who want to start unemployed with Sunday League rep as well as the 'In At The Deep End Career Thread' for those who want to start with a pro/international footballer rep. I guess it would be up to the mods to monitor and make sure people are starting out in the right thread. In addition to those, we could have an 'International management career thread' and regional threads such as 'The Asian Careers Thread' etc.

    Individual club threads would overwhelm the forum too much and actually create less interest in the challenges and other threads. Players would just start up their Man U/Barca game and ignore some of the really interesting smaller challenges like the San MArino Double and Britain/India Challenge. In my opinion, if threads based on saves played at one club are really desired, a seperate forum would be the best way to go. However, if 'career' discussion is desired, the threads should be more general and could easily fit in here.
    The different career starting points with relevant threads was the starting point of this discussion, but the thinking was that the 'big clubs' thread would be overwhelmed with discussion about Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool etc. in the way it currently is in GPTG.

    Perhaps if it started as just a 'big clubs' thread, then moved to individual club threads when the need occured, it wouldn't consume the forum?

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by Frazza Pee View Post
    I intended on just staying out of this conversation but I like the way it is now. If this is part of the overall changes then I'm not too keen on them.
    This is nothing to do with the 'overall changes'. This is a discussion about how the load between two forums could be split to fit the needs of the forums in general.

    Nothing has been decided yet, this truly is a consultation and we are desperate to hear everyone's views.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge View Post
    This is nothing to do with the 'overall changes'. This is a discussion about how the load between two forums could be split to fit the needs of the forums in general.

    Nothing has been decided yet, this truly is a consultation and we are desperate to hear everyone's views.
    Ok. I didn't really understand it anyway to be honest with you.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge View Post
    The different career starting points with relevant threads was the starting point of this discussion, but the thinking was that the 'big clubs' thread would be overwhelmed with discussion about Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool etc. in the way it currently is in GPTG.

    Perhaps if it started as just a 'big clubs' thread, then moved to individual club threads when the need occured, it wouldn't consume the forum?
    The good side to a general 'big clubs' thread is it gives the scope to move around have a 'career'. On the down side, there would probably be a lot of discussion/clarificaiton needed over what makes a big club - would someone starting at Lazio for example be able to contribute?

    Whatever the changes are, I think the need for clear but flexible guidelines is great. The sıtuation to avoid is becoming too strict with the criteria for posting in a thread, thus defeating the point of a free discussion of current games.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Thanks for your response dafuge, I do still however believe this would destroy the community, or at least damage it, and the best option would be rearranging the order of the forums in the forum display.

    Does anyone else agree with my belief that the community forums (as I call them) of FMS, CSE, and LLM add more to the game, and improve and enhance user's experience of the game and keep people coming here, and therefore deserve greater prominence.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by DodgeeD View Post
    The good side to a general 'big clubs' thread is it gives the scope to move around have a 'career'. On the down side, there would probably be a lot of discussion/clarificaiton needed over what makes a big club - would someone starting at Lazio for example be able to contribute?

    Whatever the changes are, I think the need for clear but flexible guidelines is great. The sıtuation to avoid is becoming too strict with the criteria for posting in a thread, thus defeating the point of a free discussion of current games.
    Yes, I completely agree with you there. If we try and pigeon-hole every club with weak guidelines and then try and enforce them it would be a nightmare. It would just encourage people to argue over who deserves to post in which thread.

    If these changes go ahead, we would need to think very carefully about how we brand the various threads to make things as user friendly as possible, but that's a discussion for later on if this goes ahead.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by Wegason View Post
    Thanks for your response dafuge, I do still however believe this would destroy the community, or at least damage it, and the best option would be rearranging the order of the forums in the forum display.
    This is exactly the reason I want to consult with people from both communities before committing to anything. Personally, I think the effect on the community is unpredictable. I don't think it would be fair to say that it would benefit or hinder it, but I think it must be made clear that this is something which could affect users from all over the place, not just CSE and GPTG. This move could potentially bring people in from all over the place, I know that this sort of thing would certainly interest people from the OTF.

    This forum has a relatively low number of regular users compared to many other forums, increasing it can have unpredictable outcomes but if the people we are bringing to this forum are of similar mind (as in they like playing FM and discussing it) is it that big a risk?

    Does anyone else agree with my belief that the community forums (as I call them) of FMS, CSE, and LLM add more to the game, and improve and enhance user's experience of the game and keep people coming here, and therefore deserve greater prominence.
    Unfortunately this sort of thing is beyond me, there's not a lot I can do about it. However if someone more important is reading...

  51. #51
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    GPTG forum is for discussing players, if this is happening in here, then its the wrong forum sadly and should be moved to the correct one. If not, its confusing and defeats the object of having a GPTG forum at all, if the discussions are happening elsewhere. This is something that all forums should do, make people use the correct forums. Lets get interacting with each other and be open to accepting new users who could enchance the forum you enjoy the most.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by Wegason View Post
    Does anyone else agree with my belief that the community forums (as I call them) of FMS, CSE, and LLM add more to the game, and improve and enhance user's experience of the game and keep people coming here, and therefore deserve greater prominence.
    Agree completely with this. SI are really missing a trick if they don't recognise it. I've said before, beyond Ter starting the San Marino double challenge, I can think of no instances of the SI staff coming up with new challenges or otherwise truly adding to the experience of playing the game. Surely, that is what the whole purpose of the forums is. I can appreciate the input they give to various disussions and probems in GQ, but not particularly of demonstrating ways of getting more out the game.

    There's some really interesting ideas floating about in the CSE forum that I'm sure they could look at and give more input to.

    I have no real bones with the basic idea; I think people have raised the main issues already regarding the risk of it turning into a good player discussion, and therefore becoming absolutely something to avoid if you want to feel it an achievement to have accomplished success of your own accord.

    The other main problem would be, where exactly do you start posting if you move clubs within the game? Would you have a situation of people suddenly posting in the Man Utd thread asking who they should buy in 2018 because they just got the job? "Oh and by the way if you want to know how I got on at Celtic and Lyon to get the Man Utd job take a look in those threads...." It could be messy.

    The thing I would however really like to see in part because it would bring some decent posters out of 'FM related' exile in OTF would be just a general LLM-without-the-LLM-guidelines thread. It is of course, effectively what the career thread already is, but I guess there is maybe a call for (an even less) structured way of doing it.
    Last edited by bermybhoy; 26-07-2008 at 23:12.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by bermybhoy View Post
    Agree completely with this. SI are really missing a trick if they don't recognise it. I've said before, beyond Ter starting the San Marino double challenge, I can think of no instances of the SI staff coming up with new challenges or otherwise truly adding to the experience of playing the game. Surely, that is what the whole purpose of the forums is. I can appreciate the input they give to various disussions and probems in GQ, but not particularly of demonstrating ways of getting more out the game.

    There's some really interesting ideas floating about in the CSE forum that I'm sure they could look at and give more input to.

    I have no real bones with the basic idea; I think people have raised the main issues already regarding the risk of it turning into a good player discussion, and therefore becoming absolutely something to avoid if you want to feel it an achievement to have accomplished success of your own accord.

    The other main problem would be, where exactly do you start posting if you move clubs within the game? Would you have a situation of people suddenly posting in the Man Utd thread asking who they should buy in 2018 because they just got the job? "Oh and by the way if you want to know how I got on at Celtic and Lyon to get the Man Utd job take a look in those threads...." It could be messy.

    The thing I would however really like to see in part because it would bring some decent posters out of 'FM related' exile in OTF would be just a general LLM-without-the-LLM-guidelines thread. It is of course, effectively what the career thread already is, but I guess there is maybe a call for (an even less) structured way of doing it.

    Id like a LLM like that too, maybe thats something me and Dafuge can give you all then and expand on? see how it went for a while and go from there, if it was popular imo you'd have claims to have your own specific space on the forum. Especially now you have the spoiler tags etc.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Really there are two issues up for discussion here. Firstly the issue of carer topics, and where they should be. Secondly, what seems to have been an ongoing issue since we changed forums, the activity of the CSE forum. I'm not sure that if carer threads are in the CSE forum it will solve this problem in any way, in fact i think it would make it worse.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    I started off thinking it's a good idea. However as the thread continued I just got more confused as to what the makeup of the new propsed forum would be.

    One idea I do like though is having seperate threads for each team. e.g. everyone who plays as York City has a "York City" thread.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    bermybhoy - another one of those multi quote responses coming up here, sorry.

    Agree completely with this. SI are really missing a trick if they don't recognise it. I've said before, beyond Ter starting the San Marino double challenge, I can think of no instances of the SI staff coming up with new challenges or otherwise truly adding to the experience of playing the game. Surely, that is what the whole purpose of the forums is. I can appreciate the input they give to various disussions and probems in GQ, but not particularly of demonstrating ways of getting more out the game.

    There's some really interesting ideas floating about in the CSE forum that I'm sure they could look at and give more input to.
    I completely agree with you here and this is something that I am intending on working on. Myself and Cleon have been discussing a big project involving short term situation based challenges and if I get my way then the people at SI will be involved one way or another.

    I have no real bones with the basic idea; I think people have raised the main issues already regarding the risk of it turning into a good player discussion, and therefore becoming absolutely something to avoid if you want to feel it an achievement to have accomplished success of your own accord.
    That's where the job of myself and Cleon come in, we need to make it perfectly clear to users what is expected in both forums before it potentially happens. Hopefully we can make it perfectly clear from the start but if things start to cross over we can always use the 'move posts' function to move things between the threads.

    The other main problem would be, where exactly do you start posting if you move clubs within the game? Would you have a situation of people suddenly posting in the Man Utd thread asking who they should buy in 2018 because they just got the job? "Oh and by the way if you want to know how I got on at Celtic and Lyon to get the Man Utd job take a look in those threads...." It could be messy.
    Thw 'who should I sign' posts would be exclusive to the GPTG forum. I think people should post in the thread relative to their starting point, so you could get someone posting about their achievements with Man Utd in the lower league thread because they have worked their way up and earnt their right to do so.

    The thing I would however really like to see in part because it would bring some decent posters out of 'FM related' exile in OTF would be just a general LLM-without-the-LLM-guidelines thread. It is of course, effectively what the career thread already is, but I guess there is maybe a call for (an even less) structured way of doing it.
    This was really the thing that started all this off, I wanted a place on the forums for people to discuss their game whoever they are managing without the restrictions of the various forums.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by weeeman27bob View Post
    Really there are two issues up for discussion here. Firstly the issue of carer topics, and where they should be. Secondly, what seems to have been an ongoing issue since we changed forums, the activity of the CSE forum. I'm not sure that if carer threads are in the CSE forum it will solve this problem in any way, in fact i think it would make it worse.
    What do you mean by 'the activity of the CSE forum' as an issue and how these proposals could make it worse?

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis Cole View Post
    I started off thinking it's a good idea. However as the thread continued I just got more confused as to what the makeup of the new propsed forum would be.

    One idea I do like though is having seperate threads for each team. e.g. everyone who plays as York City has a "York City" thread.
    In a nutshell, there is no new proposed forum. The proposal is that this forum absorbs the current need for a place for people to discuss their games.

    The separate thread idea is still just an idea, currently I think the best move would be to have general threads that cover groups of teams then move to individual threads when the need occurs.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    I completely agree with you here and this is something that I am intending on working on. Myself and Cleon have been discussing a big project involving short term situation based challenges and if I get my way then the people at SI will be involved one way or another.
    Aye and its something I've done on and off in the tactics forum for 2 years. They appeal to a lot of people, but it would be much more fun giving them to a wider audience. Until I spoke to Dafuge I didn't really think any of the other mods would want to assist in maybe setting something up and helping run it.

    In the few chats we had, me and Dafuge seemed to agree on everything and had basically the same ideas on which way we'd want any sort of 'scenario' challenges to go.

    And at the same time, we wanted to intergrate both this forum and the GPTG and moderate the content closely and make clear any rules we decided upon and ensure everyone followed them and that they are clearly visible. If we keep the player discussions of the team threads for the GPTG and the career aspects in this forum, then this forum gets the better discussion prospects and the hardcore users who like to follow a teams progression.

    I know it might sound comlicated and I figure we confused a few people with our wordings, so if thats the case I do apologise, as its not easy trying to type what you think at times

    But keep the feedback coming and we not gonna make any rash decisions or radical changes, we just put the idea out to you lot, to get opinions

  60. #60
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    I'm against it. Not 100% against it, because the publicity raised to both forums would be valuable. Give me some time and I'll have a good argument. I'll also need to fish through some of the GPTG.
    Not to trivialise anyone's efforts here but I think this is just too simple an attempt at a solution. Really thinking it through can bring us to a much better one.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Ok well now I have started from the beginning of this thread with an open mind, but after having read all the points and then having a glance over at GPTG seen as I have never ever been there. I really don't like the idea of moving all the stuff from there to here. My first look suggested that some of the threads were really career discussion, but when you look into them they seem to be career discussion for the benefit of showing Good Players for teams. This to me is in part in the GPTG forum and should probably stay there.

    Now moving on from that we currently have at least one thread discussion players directly...Nep's Youth Player Project. Now this is clearly not supposed to go to the GPTG, it is part of a challenge and none of the players discussed really exist at all. As for in general, all the threads in here have discussions about players, Super Kyle, and Patrik Burda to name 2 everybody knows. These are part of the challenge they are in and grow as such. So should when we want to discuss a player in a challenge thread direct it to GPTG? That seems crazy.

    Now for the idea of general career discussion I have no problem with it coming here, but I want a clear structure to it. And there is NO way I want a thread for every major club that is played. I think there are a couple of simple solutions, a Career thread for each major nation (England, Italy, SPain, France, Germany, Scotland) and then a series of other thread for other areas, European Careers, Asian Careers: Including Oceania, American Careers: Including South Africa, And a final Career thread like we have now for discussing any games that do not fit the set-ups above.

    This would be fine, but most of the threads in GPTG (I couldn't seem to read all of them) will then be full of links saying go here to see why you should get this player. And then we would have the opposite going the other way, "I had this great player Tom Burton go look at him at this link." It just seems to be redirecting traffic in circles.

    So to lay it out.

    1) Keep any career discussion that is for discussion players in GPTG
    2) Keep any player discussion related to CSE in CSE
    3) Create a series of Career threads that have no rules on career progression posting

    I think that should make it all work the best I can see and it should prevent a lot of the clutter, if it is seen after having only the 9 threads for careers that there might be something to pull out then it is a good idea. But otherwise i say as few threads as possible.

    So my mind is not so open to the actual moving threads idea anymore

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge View Post
    In a nutshell, there is no new proposed forum. The proposal is that this forum absorbs the current need for a place for people to discuss their games.

    The separate thread idea is still just an idea, currently I think the best move would be to have general threads that cover groups of teams then move to individual threads when the need occurs.
    Yeah I like that idea too, as some clubs might not become popular until someone sees someone else doing well, or fancy a change.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lower Leagues Rule View Post

    So my mind is not so open to the actual moving threads idea anymore
    Maybe I didn't explain my ideas completely, I don't want to move any threads directly between the two forums. I'm suggesting that an alternative for the career discussion element of the GPTG threads should be available in this forum.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    An alternative? So the similar threads are going on in both forums?

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Ok well now I have started from the beginning of this thread with an open mind, but after having read all the points and then having a glance over at GPTG seen as I have never ever been there. I really don't like the idea of moving all the stuff from there to here. My first look suggested that some of the threads were really career discussion, but when you look into them they seem to be career discussion for the benefit of showing Good Players for teams. This to me is in part in the GPTG forum and should probably stay there.
    Don't be too put off by what you see, that forum isn't properly moderated atm and I have to take the blame for that. I am the only mod for it and was away for a few months a while back and things sorta got just left.

    All the player stuff would be staying over there, don't worry. But the people who do want to post their career updates ( and believe me there are a fair few who would, but just dont atm) would be directed here. It wouldn't turn into a 'naming players' or a 'show off' in this forum, as thats what GPTG bit is for.

    So to lay it out.

    1) Keep any career discussion that is for discussion players in GPTG
    2) Keep any player discussion related to CSE in CSE
    3) Create a series of Career threads that have no rules on career progression posting
    Basically thats what we wanna do and our ideas/proposals are not disimliar

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by canvey!! View Post
    An alternative? So the similar threads are going on in both forums?
    Thats already happening and imo and Dafuge's its kinda pointless/a shame that its happening. I might aswell redirect the people who want to write career stuff to here.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge View Post
    bermybhoy - another one of those multi quote responses coming up here, sorry.
    No, thanks - I really need to learn how to do a bit of multiquoting myself.

    Regarding the short challenges, I'm more than willing, if I can make the time, to get involved in any project you have on the go. I think it's a great idea that could really change the way people go about the game. It's something you see in other strategy games (well, I'm thinking the likes of Civ, I haven't played anything else for years) and FM could truly benefit.

    Back to the main point, I hope this would be initially at least restricted to just a few threads, and allowing them to develop. Otherwise it would possibly engulf the existing forum and the existing challenges may be slightly lost. As you indicated earlier, it might however in fact lead to more people coming to the forum and therefore increasing participation in the challenges and sign ups...that's really impossible to say, hence, keep the number of threads down to start with and let it evolve.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge View Post
    Maybe I didn't explain my ideas completely, I don't want to move any threads directly between the two forums. I'm suggesting that an alternative for the career discussion element of the GPTG threads should be available in this forum.
    Ok that sounds good to me, now I am going to test multi-quoting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
    Don't be too put off by what you see, that forum isn't properly moderated atm and I have to take the blame for that. I am the only mod for it and was away for a few months a while back and things sorta got just left.
    Ok that explains the chaos then, thanks for pointing that out.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
    All the player stuff would be staying over there, don't worry. But the people who do want to post their career updates ( and believe me there are a fair few who would, but just dont atm) would be directed here. It wouldn't turn into a 'naming players' or a 'show off' in this forum, as thats what GPTG bit is for.
    Ok I think my main problem here was that there will end up being a lot of links back and forward between the two which will just result in huge numbers of posts to player links etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
    Basically thats what we wanna do and our ideas/proposals are not disimliar
    Ok, glad we are on a similar wavelength, the only issue I have left is a massive restriction on the number of threads. I think clearly we cannot have too many to start with, maybe even start with one for each continent and expand a bit at a time slowly from there, with one thread which is for career games encompassing more than one continent.


    WOOHOO my multiquote with different posts worked how I wanted it too
    Last edited by Lower Leagues Rule; 27-07-2008 at 00:45. Reason: Extra point to add

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    Thumbs down Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    At current there are 61 linked club threads in the GPTG. Short answer: don't do this. All these threads will clog up the CSE Forum and they seem to be the thing that one can identify about the GPTG at the moment. I think the route you want to be taking is to make the GPTG Forum an environment more suited to this sort of thing.

    *(References to he in this post are purely for simplification and can represent a he or a she)*

    Taking all these threads to the CSE Forum will undeniably have an impact on both forums. Let's look at the impact on the Good Player and Team Guide. People at the moment can stay in that forum for a good while reading up on how people are doing with the different clubs. Take this away and people pop in, ask a question about a player/who to sign, etc., wait for an answer, and then leave, making the forum an as-you-need-it forum, other than those who hang about to answer people's questions.

    Then you've got those who go to the GPTG just to read up on the threads for their favourite team, and post their own updates, ask about good players etc. All of these people go over to the CSE Forum where the thread now is and see no further use for the GPTG: they are only playing with the one team and any questions they may have can be answered in the club thread.

    So this in turn may mean that people asking good-old fashioned questions on players wait longer for a response, and some of those best fit to help them are elsewhere. For example, someone comes onto the GPTG having just been appointed as manager of Manchester United in 2012. They are asking who they should sign, but all of the people that know who is best to get for Manchester United are off in the Manchester United thread in the CSE Forum and not paying any attention to the GPTG. This person either doesn't know about this thread or doesn't feel apt to post in this thread because the opening post describes Manchester United in the here and now and the Manchester United he is managing are distinctly different. If he were to want to post his progress he may not feel that he should start four years after the game begins. If he doesn't, where does he post? People who are experienced in signing players for Manchester United are off in the Manchester United thread and if the rookie poster asks in the Manchester United thread who they should sign, they are told to go to the GPTG as this is just a career-style update thread, or they are told to provide more detail if they want to be taken seriously in their request for help.

    So, will there be two Manchester United threads? One in the GPTG where people ask who they should sign, etc. and one in the CSE Forum where people update their progress, and people post who they want to buy there knowing they are posting in the wrong place but also knowing that's where they are going to get the best answer. If you ask me, that defies the logic of this whole idea.

    So, let's move onto the effect on the Challenges, Sign-ups and Experiments Forum.

    No matter how you do it, at some point there will be significantly more club threads in the forum than actual challenges, sign-ups and experiments. And even if you decide to phase it so you start out with e.g., Big Four Thread, Other Premiership Thread, Championship Thread, when a team becomes so popular it requires a thread of its own what do people do. Does the person who has posted 20 seasons worth in the Big Four Thread on their Manchester United thread have to repost it all in the Manchester United thread? If there is a way to individually move posts to the new thread, consider how much work, time and effort this takes on the part of the moderators, especially if it takes a while for people to realise there is another thread. And you can't move them all in bulk. That would mean this poster with 20 seasons worth will have all of his Manchester United posts in a row in the new Manchester United thread which pretty much covers everything he's done in such a short space of time.

    And then, there's the idea of clubs in the same thread that would be unworkable. Perhaps this wouldn't be such an issue at Championship level or below mainly due to there being less players, and more players playing for the lower league experience rather than being a supporter of the club. But if there were a Premiership thread, and say Manchester United and Manchester City or Everton and Liverpool are the two most popular teams being managed. There's no way that would co-exist. And a big four thread, that would be so volatile it would explode. Arsenal fans dislike all other Big Four fans, Chelsea fans dislike all other Big Four fans, Manchester United fans dislike all other Big Four fans and Liverpool fans dislike all other Big Four fans. And every other fan dislikes all Big Four fans meaning that those who were to post in the Big Four thread are actual fans, die-hard or not, of the clubs being managed. This wouldn't be a question of adding one, two or three more moderators; it would mean adding five or six moderators so that the forums are covered by at least two moderators round the clock. It would be far too much work, even though there is a high standard of moderation in the CSE Forums at present.

    But there is a prosperity for the CSE Forum to gain from this. A greater number of users hitting the CSE Forums means that the current threads get more attention, and there is potential for more ideas to be generated once people realise the wonders of the CSEs. However, is this neccesarily a good thing? Of course it is, but metaphorically, if you have a banana crop, a certain number of your bananas are going to be bad bananas. If you increase the size of your banana crop by buying the land of the neighbouring banana farmer, you will have more good bananas, yippee, but you will also have more bad bananas. This metaphor can work in two ways: users and ideas. Let's look at ideas.

    Currently, I see that there are a few ideas that are being repeated. Basically, they are "Create your player to go in this new team", and there is also "Create your striker: let's see how he does" which is relatively new but is already starting to do the rounds. I have to say, the first scenario is one of the most boring ideas for a sign-up, and has been done so many times and generally doesn't even make it to the third season. I think it's excellent now that people are creating sign-ups with managers and assistant managers because that adds so much more variation and IMHO is going to be a lot more exciting than creating players no matter what the situation is.

    There is of course the infamous AI Experiment "Let's flip the English leagues on their head and see how they do", or "Let's put the Big Four in the BSN/S" and see what happens. These don't tend to last very long either, and personally I'd like someone to do this really well so that it lasts, and others can look at it and realise that it has already been done. I have no doubt that if there were a significant new influx of users to this forum, these AI Experiments would crop up, and flop.

    Now, let's look at the banana crop scenario in terms of users. Right now we have very little trouble in the CSE Forum. All we have is some maturity issues, with people posting for no apparent reason other than perhaps to boost their post count. This flares up when they are close to reaching a posting milestone. I'm not going to name and shame (even though it is really tempting) them but I am going to say that people generally know who these people are and these people know themselves. However, do this big merger and we get more bananas. So some will be good, nay, a lot will be good, but there will be bad, and that means more work for the moderators. One large city of population 3,000,000 has a greater crime rate than two smaller cities of population 1.5m each. In the cities paragon, the police forces are also working seperately, and put them together and no one knows what they are doing: what they are supposed to be covering and what the others are. Strong communication links between moderators and also between members to moderators are essential if this thing is to even think about succeeding without massive problems.

    I'm getting way to in-depth and philosophical here (hands up if you're still reading), but here I will remind you and myself of what I have mentioned so far. I don't want to repeat it all. Ideas are repeated and created, particularly the bad ones. There are more users, which generally means there are more abusive/immature users.

    Now, if we end up having 61 threads on clubs, and a further 20 or so on leagues, all active of course because they wouldn't have split from the main thread if they weren't a popular club, that leaves 19 spaces by my settings for Challenges/Sign-ups and Experiments. The forum becomes much harder to navigate and access, and over time people give up trying to read up on the quirkier challenges which have dropped to the second page in favour of playing the Manchester United club thread which they know will always be very near the top (sorry for using Manchester United so much here as an example, I'm actually a Liverpool fan ). So these challenges/sign-ups/experiments flop. The other threads, e.g. the Lyon thread, the Legia Warsaw thread, the Russia thread, all die because they are also being superceded by the Big Four threads. The forum stagnates and dies. The craze of the moment is popular before the user decides his Manchester United game (seriously, I can't help it), is more important, and the thread dies (hooray for hyperbole).

    And people here are saying that they are going to only allow a club thread when it becomes so major that it needs to split from the main thread. But what if a user posts a sensational post (rather like this one to open their Newport County thread. Do the moderators close it? The user is well-known on the forum (of birdy's calibre) and we all know he's going to stick with it and post regularly, but only a handful of other people will. Do the mods close it? Seems a bit harsh, but what happens if they don't? If it is just one user posting their progress match-by-match say, why not put it in the FM Stories forum (I'll move onto redirecting later. That's right, there's more!). The policy will have to be extremely strict, and even then, go to page 5 or something, you see a bunch of club threads that have all been closed over time and their hanging there like rotting fish. Also takes up a lot of forum storage space.

    And as NepentheZ mentioned before, say someone manages Canvey Island in the Conference thread (covering both level 5 and 6), but gets them up to League 1. Do they continue posting in the Conference thread or do they go to the Football League thread? If they post in the Conference thread, you'll have them posting there while in the Premiership, which could encourage others, but then could discourage others. If they post in the Football League Thread, when they get to the Premiership they'll be posting there, as will everyone who is managing in the Premiership. Everyone. That's a lot of people. It's a lot to handle. Loads.

    And finally, lets have a look at the impact on moderation. So, we'll need new moderators. And we'll need an ultra-strong infrastructure for moderators to communicate with each other. I'd even say we would need some power-users, not having the rights of moderators but being able to control the forum when the moderators aren't there. Those who attempt to control abuse would have the weight behind their actions that they need (that's actually a good idea: perhaps I'll go into more detail about that one day). And the teething period would be immense: it would take a long time, and I mean metaphorical eons for the threads to be sorted out so that we know which teams are going in their own threads and which in the league threads. Sure, you could give people editing rights/modship temporarily to handle all this, but that's toying with feelings, and confusing. It's also dangerous (more people with editing rights = more chance someone will cause irrepreble damage). All these new power-users will need to be looped in on the communications system. Of course this is theoretical, it's either this or trying to cope with the current moderators and those appointed in the coming weeks on their own merit.

    Then there is the endless redirecting. So, good player talk goes in the GPTG, and updates go here. Not only could club threads deteriorate into one or two lonely users (lonely as there's no help in the GPTG) asking about who they should sign, but whenever a thread goes off topic or onto signings, does it have to be redirected? As said above, this would mean a thread in each forum on a club (which in itself confuses people - what gets put in which thread?), but it's work for those doing the redirecting. It also makes people seem arrogant and snappy, which is entirely the wrong forum ethos. However, if it isn't done, it makes the moderators seem lazy, not just lenient.

    A lot more moderators will be needed. As Cleon already said, the GPTG is understaffed. If this wasn't done, but there was a sudden change in attitude and mentality in this forum, a second moderator would be needed. But mixing them both and keeping the GPTG means extra extra moderators. As said, that could be dangerous and confusing. It also makes the strong communications paramount.

    So that's that. As you can tell, I'm against this change. I'm surprised I was able to write this much, but it's kept me up until 1:40am. Please read it. <- Begging emoticon.

    WORD COUNT: 2,457 CHARACTER COUNT: 13,580 - and I've only just reached the maximum allowed images (wink)
    Last edited by canvey!!; 27-07-2008 at 01:41.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Can't say I'm a big fan of the idea as I understand it.

    Whilst I think having somewhere to post general save game updates is a good idea I'm not sure if this forum is the place for all of them. I can't see many of the threads being particulary 'healthy' and I can't see them improving activity in other threads.

    This is just an idle observation, and as such isn't proof in anyway, but big club save games tend to have a fairly limited shelf life. Personally I tire of winning everything with just one big club and I know the same is true with some others. So I think you may find many threads will be quite stop start, and low quality. One of the great things about alot of the challenges and threads (dafuges, Gundo's, the career thread) is the diversity of teams and experiences with them. You won't get that with threads devoted to single teams.

    I think they'll become quite insular as fans congregate to their own team's thread. There'll be Man U fans patting each other on the back and bemoaning other teams, and the same will be true in the Chelsea thread, Liverpool etc. I don't see there being much venturing of users from their own thread to other challenges. I can however see more cases of wind ups and idiotic arguements. Even, or especially, if there was one 'big club' career thread.
    As an example, have you seen the average exchange between users on the BBC's 606? I think thats what we could end up with except with the occasional update.

    I think the current career thread should be protected too. I mean, I'm big fan of the current Career Game thread (thanks Birdy123!) but it's a slightly different kettle of fish to just general save game updates. Although the rules are few what seems to have become important, at least unofficially, is an attempt at realism and an actual career. So you don't get people starting at hugely successful clubs, or at their favourite clubs. You get a hard earned and varied career as people work their way from one club to another. If we suddenly get people posting in it who just start at a top flight club not only would I be a little irritated but it would also bore me.

    I like Challenges and Sign Ups as it is really. It might not be overwhelming in terms of activity but it is a case of quality over quantity. Also it does allow the more esoteric ideas to flourish, or at least have a chance of being spotted. If there's a sudden influx of individual or big team threads it could push some really good ideas and threads out of contention before they have a chance to be noticed properly.


    And....sorry I'm rambling a bit, if we do get more activity from the single team save game users on other challenges then I'm not sure whether the quality of their posting will be up to standard. I know, it's a long winded and sweeping generalisation but a User who's experience is drawn from a limited game experience with their favourite team would be one I'd probably find boring and pretty useless. I know it's quite snobbish of me but someone who has had a fairly sheltered FM experience has little to say that I'd actually care about.

    Can there not just be a seperate forum, or subforum for the single team updates? The people who want them will go to them regardless of where they are. Those who want to broaden their horizons and do some of the challenges here will come here eventually anyway.

  71. #71
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Ok, I fell asleep half way through that, but thankfully I woke up and read the second half.

    What about if I threw a curve ball and said there may be the possibility of a brand new forum?

  72. #72
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Short answer (who's breathing sighs of relief?): That's all that needs to be done if there's a current problem with the GPTG. I don't see that there's any problem at all, but I may be wrong. I'm guessing a GP forum and a TG forum? (Good Players, Team Guide).

    EDIT: I'm off now, I deserve a sleep.
    Last edited by canvey!!; 27-07-2008 at 01:55.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Good post Canvey I read it all and now have an odd craving for Bannanas.

    I think a new forum would work. That would keep Challenges and Sign Ups relatively safe and still give people a place to post about their save games if they wanted to.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    I haven't worked out how to quote with tis new forum yet, so I agree with the idea dafufe and I think that a seperate "Update Forum" is a good idea. (insert thumb up smiley here ffs!)

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    I must admit I am liking the idea of a brand new forum, but this is something which is out of my control...

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by Wegason View Post
    So please, don't implement this. Create a separate forum for them, and move the community forums of CSE, FMS, and LLM further up and see the difference, because it would be huge.


    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge
    I must admit I am liking the idea of a brand new forum, but this is something which is out of my control...

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    i'm sure i could write a lot on this subject, but i'm going to try and keep it brief:

    As someone who does go into bothe forums, i do like the idea of club specific threads, and have created a couple myself. if i am playing a game as a specific team, i like to have somewhere i can post updates on my game. this sort of thread deserves it's place for sure.

    now i'm not a 'veteran' of the CSE forum, having only really discovered and immersed myself in it for FM08. i have to say that i think it's a great little forum, pretty much free of the 'idiots' that can be found in general discussion and a little in GPTG, which i like. the main challenges here are great, and offer the player a varied option of games to play. an influx of new users to the thread could be good for certain challenges, but to lump club threads in here, say for lower league games in england, would surely detract players form Dafuge's game. is this a good thing?

    if it was to have the club threads transferred here, it would have to be heavily moderated IMO, as i can envisage a lot of people who have games in the club threads posting general messages into the main forum. this could well be despite then knowing not to, as they may be too lazy to jump to another thread to ask people who they should buy for "Wycombe in League 1 in 2012...." one thing i do notice in the GPTG thread is that on an almost daily basis, a new person will ask for good players to buy for a certain team. almost without fail, the player will be given the same names every time, as they are the 'known great young players'. with the user doing a quick search, there would be no need for their own post. i do not want this sort of pointless thread littering up this good thread.

    i could go on, but i'm going to draw this to a conclusion.

    i suggest giving the club threads a forum of their own, should that be possible. if it has to be in here, then it must be via a sticky link at the top of the page, linking through to a list of threads. i fear that if the club threads moved into CSE, and went in the main body, it could be the first act in the slow death of dafuge's, Gundo's et al's challenges, as they would be suffocated by the club threads.

    not exactly short as promised, and it went a bit stronger than i had imagined, but hey ho. it's how i feel i guess.

  78. #78
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Again, I'm all up for the idea as long as the new threads are patrolled and are to the guidelines of the forum. If posters are asking questions on how to improve their team/tactics etc they need to be moved on to the Good Players/Tactics forums. These new threads if they go ahead should be for sharing season experiences and updating their progression with a particular club.

    Maybe a trial period is in order? Lets say give it 2 weeks and then see how things have gone...

  79. #79
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Just wack it on here im loving the saved threads plus this is the busiest forum bar general discussion so my ipinio is put it in here

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by Terras-FM View Post
    Just wack it on here im loving the saved threads plus this is the busiest forum bar general discussion so my ipinio is put it in here
    When you say 'here' do you mean the challenges forum or GPTG?

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    GPTG! Defauge

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    i think a brand new subforum would be best as with a lot of new threads for clubs and various leagues we could quite easily see some of the challenges and sign ups dropping lower down the list and therefore maybe being used less

  83. #83
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    In response to your PM, dafuge (I'm posting it here as this is a public opinion), there isn't a problem with the CSE Forum that this could solve. If there is a problem with the GPTG, doing this would not be the way to solve it.

  84. #84
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    There isn't a problem with GPTG. The problem is, people using other forums for certain discussions, when a forum for almost everything already exists. All player discussions should be in GP forum, all tactics in tactics forum and so on. At the minute its too spread out imo and defeats the purpose of specific forums, if people are allowed to post wherever.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    I'd agree with that. But I always feel arrogant when I try to redirect people. I think some sort of education needs to be done. New users need to know where to post and there needs to be a zero tolerance policy meaning that in time everyone will post in the correct forum. Watch this space.

  86. #86
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by canvey!! View Post
    In response to your PM, dafuge (I'm posting it here as this is a public opinion), there isn't a problem with the CSE Forum that this could solve. If there is a problem with the GPTG, doing this would not be the way to solve it.
    It wasn't long ago that people were complaining that a lack of activity in the forum was killing the challenges, sign ups and experiments.

    I think you're right in that this possibly isn't the best way to do it, perhaps the plans for the short term challenges could be the thing to boost the popularity in the way that would best benefit the forum.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by canvey!! View Post
    I'd agree with that. But I always feel arrogant when I try to redirect people. I think some sort of education needs to be done. New users need to know where to post and there needs to be a zero tolerance policy meaning that in time everyone will post in the correct forum. Watch this space.
    I don't see anything wrong with politely pointing a new user to the correct forum with a link to help them on their way.

    The last thing we want though is a situation we had a while ago in GQ with the 'forum police' who would just post something like 'wrong forum' within seconds of a thread being started. Pointing someone to a new forum is great, but if it's done in the wrong manner it does more harm than good.

  88. #88
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge View Post
    It wasn't long ago that people were complaining that a lack of activity in the forum was killing the challenges, sign ups and experiments.
    I acknowledge that, but I wouldn't say they were killing them, and I certainly wouldn't say that this would help: probably quite the opposite. The way this debate has been structured implies to me that the main reason for this is to help the GPTG, which a new forum could do and leave us alone (), and of course it's NIMBY. I'd welcome anything that I think has a good chance of fixing the quoted issue. Sorry for sounding so argumentative, I just want you to know that I know about the issue you quoted and that I don't think this will solve it.

  89. #89
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by canvey!! View Post
    I acknowledge that, but I wouldn't say they were killing them, and I certainly wouldn't say that this would help: probably quite the opposite. The way this debate has been structured implies to me that the main reason for this is to help the GPTG, which a new forum could do and leave us alone (), and of course it's NIMBY. I'd welcome anything that I think has a good chance of fixing the quoted issue. Sorry for sounding so argumentative, I just want you to know that I know about the issue you quoted and that I don't think this will solve it.
    The main reason for this idea was that there isn't currently an official place for people to go to discuss their games, and I think there should be. Adapting this forum to take that on was my idea since it is an area of the forums that I am interested in and I thought it could fit in here quite well. After some of the great arguments put up here, I'm starting to think that this forum perhaps isn't the best place to host it.

    Keep the argument/debate coming though, it's what we were hoping for by opening up this idea to the members of the respective forums.

  90. #90
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by canvey!! View Post
    I acknowledge that, but I wouldn't say they were killing them, and I certainly wouldn't say that this would help: probably quite the opposite. The way this debate has been structured implies to me that the main reason for this is to help the GPTG, which a new forum could do and leave us alone (), and of course it's NIMBY. I'd welcome anything that I think has a good chance of fixing the quoted issue. Sorry for sounding so argumentative, I just want you to know that I know about the issue you quoted and that I don't think this will solve it.
    It wasn't structured to help GPTG, its just this forum atm covers some stuff that belongs in GPTG. All me and Dafuge wanted to do, wa smake sure stuff goes in the right place where it belongs, thats why we decided to ask for feedback before anything hapepned to see what response we got and work from that. As the careers threads could be classed same as the club threads and maybe should be an extension of the club threads already. But we are just looking at ideas/solutions

    As for the scenario's idea, thats something I will push for too as I've done it for a couple of years now in the tactics forum. So if a new forum was created for that, I'm sure I could contribute loads for FM09
    Last edited by Cleon; 27-07-2008 at 19:20.

  91. #91
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    I have to admit as an initial idea it was good. The threads seem to be the sort of quality and style that fit in with current challenge updates, particularly those in the career thread. But you let us pick holes . It would fit in, but there are so many other issues it isn't worth it. If the objective is to find a place for people to post general updates on their game create a forum, it's distinct enough to be given one. But then in terms of us here at the CSE it's a NIMBY so that's something Cleon should be most concerned about.

  92. #92
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge View Post
    I think that career discussion and the challenges go hand in hand, especially the way people have taken to reporting on them in this forum. Whilst a brand new forum might be good it would probably kill off this forum completely.
    This would be perfect for my liking. What I really dont like is the challenges forum since 99% of them are just "stupid" to put it politely and unrealistic e.g. win world cup with San Marino or something.

    The way this thread sounds is that you'll have each team and people discussing how they have done etc and within it challenges could be set e.g. Win Champions league in first season with ..., get soem low premier league team into europe etc etc. At least these would be worth a shot at.

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by Andyh60 View Post
    This would be perfect for my liking. What I really dont like is the challenges forum since 99% of them are just "stupid" to put it politely and unrealistic e.g. win world cup with San Marino or something.

    The way this thread sounds is that you'll have each team and people discussing how they have done etc and within it challenges could be set e.g. Win Champions league in first season with ..., get soem low premier league team into europe etc etc. At least these would be worth a shot at.
    the "stupid" challenges, such as 'winning the world cup with san marino or something" are exactly that - challenges. that's why these challenges are popular in here. i, for one, would much rather thake on a difficult challenge like this, thus proving myself as a good manager, over playing for 10 years at Manchester United winning everything every year because i buy all of the best players, who i heard about on the GPTG forum. This way, you find your own players, achieve the 'impossible' and get much more enjoyment from it.

  94. #94
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by Andyh60 View Post
    This would be perfect for my liking. What I really dont like is the challenges forum since 99% of them are just "stupid" to put it politely and unrealistic e.g. win world cup with San Marino or something.

    The way this thread sounds is that you'll have each team and people discussing how they have done etc and within it challenges could be set e.g. Win Champions league in first season with ..., get soem low premier league team into europe etc etc. At least these would be worth a shot at.
    I think what you've said here is a good example that backs up the reasons a lot of people have put forward for not combining them. I think a lot of people here like the 'stupid and unrealistic' challenges and would much rather play a game that has a challenging (maybe even impossible) aim than one with a much shorter lifespan.

  95. #95
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    I think that's what the challenges are about. Anyone can win 20 odd premier leagues with Manchester United, but not everyone can take a previously unplayable team to Premier League and Champions League glory

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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    It's quite refreshing to come back here afre so long and find such a reasoned and balanced argument/duscussion continuing with very different views and yet not turning into a slag-fest.

    I wonder is there another forum in all of the SI boards where this would have been the case also.

    I've commented a couple of times already, (and refrained from doing so another couple of times while I considered the recent responses.

    I seem to be completely on the other end of the FM playing spectrum to Andyh60, (not that that's an issue), because I absolutely love the "impossible" style challenges like the dafuge and Gundo ones. That I have never completed either of them, (or am likely to), makes not one bit of difference to me.

    I get as much enjoyment out of the "camaraderie" generated in each of these threads as I do my game itself, and I struggle to do one without the other.

    Playing FM can be a pretty boring and isolated past-time and theses threads really help the "growth" of a save game during the early stages.

    With that in mind, I can completely understand why someone not playing in any of the challeneges would like to post info about their progress somewhere, and how this woudl benefit not only them, but also others doing a similar thing with the same team, (or just in the same league or part of the World).

    My initial reaction was that I did not want these new update threads in this forum, however I would like to take this point to clarify that I am also against stopping updates being posted in the likes of the dafuge and Gundo threads. These 2 threads, (along with the kipfizh thread), are probably the 3 most valuble threads in terms of posters/readers/content/return visits across any of the SI forums that I frequent, (ie not T&TF/GPG/Editors Hideaway).

    I gather that the reason for this is that there is significant "crossover" in terms of content between various forums. I understand and agree that this neds to be adressed.

    Cleon I think, (I'm not 100% sure about this so apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick), that as updates are an important, (even vital), part of this forum, then we should keep all the "updates" together in here. (That point, if true, was lost on me earlier in this thread so apologies). The best thing about the dafuge/Gundo threads is the "team ethos" and "community spirit" that is engendered by the regular posters in these threads and they are just about the most helpful places I have come across on the forums for anything from Tactics to Graphics and everything in between.

    If it is being suggested that the content of these threads be limited to discussing the progress of your save within the challenge, and comments such as Tactics/Graphics etc etc be limited to their specialised forum, then I am absolutely and completely 100% against this idea.

    I hope that I have just got the wrong idea about this and apologies if that is indeed the case.

    Basically, I would like to see the following.

    1. CSE forum to remain as is. Threads such as the dafuge & Gundo threads to continue as is and all content related to that challenge, (including players/tactics/graphics), should be allowed.

    2. A new forum created specifically for "update threads" who do not have a position elsewhere. ie any team or Nation or Competition that doesn't come under an existing challenge.

    Player names and tactics should be allowed to be discussed, (in general terms) in here, but that in depth discussion should be made in T&TGF & GPGF.

    Rather than 1 thread for each new update, it could be done in the following, (similar to that used in the Data forum). Unfortunately I have just gone to look at and post a link to the system used in the Data forum but it is no lonoger in place. I am guessing that when the new forum was started it had to be scrapped.

    It basically worked as follows.

    1 Thread, (stickied), at the top of the forum which has the following links to the following individual threads.

    England
    --------

    Premiership. When clicking on this you are taken to another thread which lists all Premiership teams individually.

    If a thread is yet to be created, then it can be created and a MOD advised to update the "Premiership thread" with the link to the relevant teams thread.

    Then you do the same thing for the following.

    Championship.

    Leagues 1 & 2.

    Conference Nat, North or South.

    There could be 1 thread created for all of the big/popular nations and some of the more obscure Nations lumped together for ease.

    This would stop multip;e threads being opened for the same club/nation/league and it would be easy to find what you are looking for.

    Anything else would be a disaster in the making with thread after thread after thread cloggging up the forum with no way of finding what you are looking for.

    Even with the system in place as described above, (which is probably time consuming to start off with and takes man ghours to moderate which is something we should be trying to avoid), then it will still be a bit of a mess and not very easy on the eye.

    If these threads were allowed to be posted in CSE forum, (even with a well moderated systen as described above), the sheer numbers of threads would mean that many of the existing challenges. sign-ups would be relegated to obscurity lower down the page.

    That is my main reason for being so opposed to these type of threads being allowed in CSE.

  97. #97
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbokav1971 View Post

    My initial reaction was that I did not want these new update threads in this forum, however I would like to take this point to clarify that I am also against stopping updates being posted in the likes of the dafuge and Gundo threads. These 2 threads, (along with the kipfizh thread), are probably the 3 most valuble threads in terms of posters/readers/content/return visits across any of the SI forums that I frequent, (ie not T&TF/GPG/Editors Hideaway).

    I gather that the reason for this is that there is significant "crossover" in terms of content between various forums. I understand and agree that this neds to be adressed.

    Cleon I think, (I'm not 100% sure about this so apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick), that as updates are an important, (even vital), part of this forum, then we should keep all the "updates" together in here. (That point, if true, was lost on me earlier in this thread so apologies). The best thing about the dafuge/Gundo threads is the "team ethos" and "community spirit" that is engendered by the regular posters in these threads and they are just about the most helpful places I have come across on the forums for anything from Tactics to Graphics and everything in between.

    If it is being suggested that the content of these threads be limited to discussing the progress of your save within the challenge, and comments such as Tactics/Graphics etc etc be limited to their specialised forum, then I am absolutely and completely 100% against this idea.
    The content of the current threads in here is not an issue and I would not want to move any of it elsewhere. The original idea was to give people somewhere to discuss their games if they were not following the strict rules and aims of a challenge, a bit like the career thread is at the moment.

  98. #98
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Great to see that people understand my point of view but not necessarily agree with it. End of day yes of coruse there should be some near impossible challenges but I cant spend 24 / 7 trying to acheive them Id just love say a weekly challenge of something that may or may not be done.

    e.g. qualify West Ham for UEFA cup, Spurs for Champions league, win the league with Liverpool, keep Hull in premiership etc etc

    I mean lets face it if any of these came true for season 08/09 in real life Id be amazed would you?

  99. #99
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbokav1971 View Post

    Basically, I would like to see the following.

    1. CSE forum to remain as is. Threads such as the dafuge & Gundo threads to continue as is and all content related to that challenge, (including players/tactics/graphics), should be allowed.

    2. A new forum created specifically for "update threads" who do not have a position elsewhere. ie any team or Nation or Competition that doesn't come under an existing challenge.

    Player names and tactics should be allowed to be discussed, (in general terms) in here, but that in depth discussion should be made in T&TGF & GPGF.

    Rather than 1 thread for each new update, it could be done in the following, (similar to that used in the Data forum). Unfortunately I have just gone to look at and post a link to the system used in the Data forum but it is no lonoger in place. I am guessing that when the new forum was started it had to be scrapped.

    It basically worked as follows.

    1 Thread, (stickied), at the top of the forum which has the following links to the following individual threads.

    England
    --------

    Premiership. When clicking on this you are taken to another thread which lists all Premiership teams individually.

    If a thread is yet to be created, then it can be created and a MOD advised to update the "Premiership thread" with the link to the relevant teams thread.

    Then you do the same thing for the following.

    Championship.

    Leagues 1 & 2.

    Conference Nat, North or South.

    There could be 1 thread created for all of the big/popular nations and some of the more obscure Nations lumped together for ease.

    This would stop multip;e threads being opened for the same club/nation/league and it would be easy to find what you are looking for.

    Anything else would be a disaster in the making with thread after thread after thread cloggging up the forum with no way of finding what you are looking for.

    Even with the system in place as described above, (which is probably time consuming to start off with and takes man ghours to moderate which is something we should be trying to avoid), then it will still be a bit of a mess and not very easy on the eye.

    If these threads were allowed to be posted in CSE forum, (even with a well moderated systen as described above), the sheer numbers of threads would mean that many of the existing challenges. sign-ups would be relegated to obscurity lower down the page.

    That is my main reason for being so opposed to these type of threads being allowed in CSE.
    I think what you've described here would be my first choice as well after this discussion. Originally I hadn't thought a new forum would be a viable option, but if it is possible it could be an ideal solution.

  100. #100
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    Default Re: Expanding the challenges forum to cover all save game discussion - opinions pleas

    Quote Originally Posted by Andyh60 View Post
    Great to see that people understand my point of view but not necessarily agree with it. End of day yes of coruse there should be some near impossible challenges but I cant spend 24 / 7 trying to acheive them Id just love say a weekly challenge of something that may or may not be done.

    e.g. qualify West Ham for UEFA cup, Spurs for Champions league, win the league with Liverpool, keep Hull in premiership etc etc

    I mean lets face it if any of these came true for season 08/09 in real life Id be amazed would you?
    To me that's kinda just playing the game as opposed to a 'challenge' per se. I mean, if you start as Hull, of course your aim would be to keep them up. By nature most of the challenges are long term efforts with very distant goals. Dafuge and others have spoken already about setting up short term challnges, which may or may not take the form you're suggesting; I would think however they'd be more specific and situation based. I think what you're talking about would be better suited to the 'club threads' that have been discussed above.

    That's not intended as a criticism at all, it's interesting to see what different people get from the game.

    With all that said, I'm now very much coming round to thinking that if a seperate forum can be made, that's the best place for this kind of thing.

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