Steam.....AGAIN

[Wyer]

So do Steam have the right to stop me playing FM if I don't agree to their sub t&c?
How is that lawful considering I own the game!

If SI go with Steam again I'm done & dusted with FM.

[tomtuck01]

Errrr what seems to be the problem?

[Wyer]

They have a new t&c and to play your games you have to accept it.
If you refuse, you can not play your games.
Its a complete joke.

[tomtuck01]

I haven't seen this...............

[Wyer]

I tried to play it tonight.
Surely they are now allowed to do this?
We've paid for a product, not their 'service'.

[magicmastermind124]

Of course they can - you're using their service to play the game and they are in their right to amend the T&C's which you will have already agreed to previously, they have just updated them.

[Wyer]

But is my game, I have paid money to play.
Is there anything in the agreement of sale that I must accept Steams T&C to play FM?

[Michael F]

You don't own the game, you own a copy of the licence to play the game iirc

[Sikker]

You don't own the game, you own a copy of the licence to play the game iirc

As I understand that is not true according to the EU law mentioned in this thread http://community.sigames.com/showthr...e-Activation!!

[manager2012]

then you should give us a choise to use steam or as stand alone as it could misslead buyers.

[Piethief100]

If it's any consolation, the change to the T&Cs, probably isn't valid in the UK courts anyway.

The change involved a clause preventing certain types of legal action being taken against Valve. The UK Courts would be highly unlikely to endorse such a limitation of a customer's rights based on a document nobody reads!

[philly_flyer10]

Youre entitled to a refund under UK law if they alter the T&C which means you are worse off.

Good luck getting it though. I will never buy a digital copy because of the DRM and the complete lack of control you have over something you paid for.

[manager2012]

it onley says to activate it with steam "not use it with steam"on the box no warnings as i can see can we get a refund ?

[Wyer]

I wonder if this could be an issue for trading standards?
We've paid for FM, not for Steam. I am convinced they can not withhold our product the way they are doing.

[milnerpoint]

This again?
Trading standards have yet to have an issue with Steam in 10 years, they are not going to start now. Do you not think Steam and SEGA have had their lawyers check all of this before even starting this form of DRM?

[billyboyeden]

These threads are ridiculous and have been gone over again and again. If you want to play football manager, you have to use steam, if you dont want to use steam, you cant play football manager. That is your choice and due to the success that si have had with steam, I would imagine its here to stay.

[manworker]

If you bought a hard copy from a store you should not have to agree to Valves new terms. As far I know they only removed you ability to file a class action lawsuit so i dont imagine it will be a big deal but I dont like where this could be headed.

If you bought the game through Steam then you should have to agree.

[Salad Daze]

Steam is a big pile of crap with zero focus on customer service. Meanwhile the top brass at SI sit in their ivory towers rubbing their hands with glee and sticking 2 fingers up at their customers.

[billyboyeden]

Steam is a big pile of crap with zero focus on customer service. Meanwhile the top brass at SI sit in their ivory towers rubbing their hands with glee and sticking 2 fingers up at their customers.

Or use the money to employ extra staff to work on improving the game for its customers as has been stated hundreds of times !

[Reccy]

Steam is brilliant = If you dont like it, cya around

[busngabb]

I'm unable to play Football Manager because of Steam again. Their support team is absolutely useless. I won't be buying 13 if it's Steam only. It really is a horrible piece of software. I can understand it's usefulness to games who have a lot of games, it's connects them and keeps them updated like a console does. But when you've only got one game on your laptop and don't play online, it really does hamper the experience. I really do hate it with a passion now, it prevents you playing games far too much.

[magicmastermind124]

Some of you here don't know what you are talking about. If FM is the only game you play you can set it up so it is an icon to launch on your desktop and you can set Steam to offline mode meaning you barely notice Steam at all. Plus those arguing that you shouldn't need Steam should have read the part of the cover that states you need a Steam account to activate. Besides having FM on Steam stopped the game from being leaked at RTM stage and was more difficult to pirate, resulting in a sales increase and new jobs at SI to make FM better. If you don't want to be a part of it, then I doubt we will miss you. No point making a fuss about it on here though.

Regarding the ECJ statement, you still only own a licence for the game, not the game itself. The recent ruling is in regards to being able to sell that licence you own. However it is likely that software companies can still disallow the transfer of such licences, so although you can sell it to someone else you would need to be able to transfer it too, and this is not possible with Steam if you purchase the game for yourself.

[SCIAG]

If FM is the only game you play you can set it up so it is an icon to launch on your desktop and you can set Steam to offline mode meaning you barely notice Steam at all.

This isn't quite true as Steam will periodically go online. If it realises there is an update either to FM or to the Steam client, you won't be able to play until the update is installed.

I don't really see why this is causing a fuss- what is the massively objectionable change to the T&Cs?

[themadsheep2001]

This isn't quite true as Steam will periodically go online. If it realises there is an update either to FM or to the Steam client, you won't be able to play until the update is installed.

I don't really see why this is causing a fuss- what is the massively objectionable change to the T&Cs?

Valve alters Steam T&Cs to counter lawsuit threat

by Ben Parfitt
about 13 hours ago
inShare
Email

An alteration has been added the Steam’s terms and conditions that Valve hopes will help combat the threat of consumer lawsuits.

Sony introduced a similar change to its PlayStation Network back in September (in the wake of 2011’s PSN security outage) and was slaughtered by the internet games collective.

It will be interesting to see if fan-favourite Valve is subjected to anywhere near the same level of vitriol.

"It's clear to us that in some situations, class actions have real benefits to customers,” a Valve statement issued to Kotaku says. “In far too many cases however, class actions don't provide any real benefit to users and instead impose unnecessary expense and delay, and are often designed to benefit the class action lawyers who craft and litigate these claims.

"Class actions like these do not benefit us or our communities. We think this new dispute resolution process is faster and better for you and Valve while avoiding unnecessary costs, and that it will therefore benefit the community as a whole."

It’s hard to deny that the vast bulk of consumer litigation culture if hot hair and opportunistic greed. But actively eroding consumer rights is a dangerous business and risks turning a customer base away from you.


thats the article, below is the new section i believe:

12. DISPUTE RESOLUTION/BINDING ARBITRATION/CLASS ACTION WAIVER.

Most user concerns can be resolved by use of our Steam support site at https://support.steampowered.com/. If we are unable to resolve your concerns and a dispute remains between you and Valve, this Section explains how we agree to resolve it.

YOU AND VALVE AGREE TO RESOLVE ALL DISPUTES AND CLAIMS BETWEEN US IN INDIVIDUAL BINDING ARBITRATION. THAT INCLUDES, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, ANY CLAIMS ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO: (i) ANY ASPECT OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN US; (ii) THIS AGREEMENT; OR (iii) YOUR USE OF STEAM, YOUR ACCOUNT OR THE SOFTWARE. IT APPLIES REGARDLESS OF WHETHER SUCH CLAIMS ARE BASED IN CONTRACT, TORT, STATUTE, FRAUD, UNFAIR COMPETITION, MISREPRESENTATION OR ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY.

However, this Section does not apply to the following types of claims or disputes, which you or Valve may bring in any court with jurisdiction: (i) claims of infringement or other misuse of intellectual property rights, including such claims seeking injunctive relief; and (ii) claims related to or arising from any alleged unauthorized use, piracy or theft.

This Section does not prevent you from bringing your dispute to the attention of any federal, state, or local government agencies that can, if the law allows, seek relief from us for you.

An arbitration is a proceeding before a neutral arbitrator, instead of before a judge or jury. Arbitration is less formal than a lawsuit in court, and provides more limited discovery. It follows different rules than court proceedings, and is subject to very limited review by courts. The arbitrator will issue a written decision and provide a statement of reasons if requested by either party. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU AND VALVE ARE GIVING UP THE RIGHT TO SUE IN COURT AND TO HAVE A TRIAL BEFORE A JUDGE OR JURY.

You and Valve agree to make reasonable, good faith efforts to informally resolve any dispute before initiating arbitration. A party who intends to seek arbitration must first send the other a written notice that describes the nature and basis of the claim or dispute and sets forth the relief sought. If you and Valve do not reach an agreement to resolve that claim or dispute within 30 days after the notice is received, you or Valve may commence an arbitration. Written notice to Valve must be sent via postal mail to: ATTN: Arbitration Notice, Valve Corporation, P.O. Box 1688, Bellevue, WA 98004.

The Federal Arbitration Act applies to this Section. The arbitration will be governed by the Commercial Arbitration Rules of the American Arbitration Association (“AAA”) and, where applicable, the AAA's Supplementary Procedures for Consumer Related Disputes, as modified by this Agreement, both of which are available at http://www.adr.org. The arbitrator is bound by the terms of this Agreement.

The AAA will administer the arbitration. It may be conducted through the submission of documents, by phone, or in person in the county where you live or at another mutually agreed location.

If you seek $10,000 or less, Valve agrees to reimburse your filing fee and your share of the arbitration costs, including your share of arbitrator compensation, at the conclusion of the proceeding, unless the arbitrator determines your claims are frivolous or costs are unreasonable as determined by the arbitrator. Valve agrees not to seek its attorneys' fees or costs in arbitration unless the arbitrator determines your claims are frivolous or costs are unreasonable as determined by the arbitrator. If you seek more than $10,000, the arbitration costs, including arbitrator compensation, will be split between you and Valve according to the AAA Commercial Arbitration Rules and the AAA's Supplementary Procedures for Consumer Related Disputes, if applicable.

YOU AND VALVE AGREE NOT TO BRING OR PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, PRIVATE ATTORNEY GENERAL ACTION OR COLLECTIVE ARBITRATION, EVEN IF AAA's PROCEDURES OR RULES WOULD OTHERWISE ALLOW ONE. THE ARBITRATOR MAY AWARD RELIEF ONLY IN FAVOR OF THE INDIVIDUAL PARTY SEEKING RELIEF AND ONLY TO THE EXTENT OF THAT PARTY'S INDIVIDUAL CLAIM. You and Valve also agree not to seek to combine any action or arbitration with any other action or arbitration without the consent of all parties to this Agreement and all other actions or arbitrations.

If the agreement in this Section not to bring or participate in a class or representative action, private attorney general action or collective arbitration should be found illegal or unenforceable, you and Valve agree that it shall not be severable, that this entire Section shall be unenforceable and any claim or dispute would be resolved in court and not in collective arbitration.

Notwithstanding this Section, you have the right to litigate any dispute in small claims court, if all the requirements of the small claims court, including any limitations on jurisdiction and the amount at issue in the dispute, are satisfied.

This Section 12 shall apply to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law. If the laws of your jurisdiction prohibit the application of some or all of the provisions of this Section notwithstanding Section 11 (Applicable Law/Jurisdiction), such provisions will not apply to you.

[SCIAG]

Thanks themadsheep, I'm surprised that's legal. Basically "we can't sue each other, except for these things which we like to sue for".

I'm not planning on suing Valve any time soon though, and I imagine in any situation I did want to that the T&Cs would somehow be null and void.

[Neil Brock]

Steam is a big pile of crap with zero focus on customer service. Meanwhile the top brass at SI sit in their ivory towers rubbing their hands with glee and sticking 2 fingers up at their customers.

That's a completely unfounded statement, we have towers made of Gold not ivory.

Seriously though, as everyone has said in this thread the use of Steam has allowed us to make sure the game was not pirated before release and that the pirates are right now not playing the latest version of FM12 available. If you look in our support forums we try to get every single user up and running if we can. We have great respect for our community and all we ask in return is respect back. Statements like yours aren't constructive or useful on these forums, it just comes across as abusive.

[Bradley21]

Steam is a phenomenal piece of software, if you take exception to using it then either grow up or don't play FM. There isn't a single legitimate reason to dislike it.

[Lawlore]

Steam is a phenomenal piece of software, if you take exception to using it then either grow up or don't play FM. There isn't a single legitimate reason to dislike it.

That's just as silly a statement as the extreme haters on the other end of the argument.

There are strengths and weaknesses to platforms like Steam, and there are strengths and weaknesses to Steam specifically. From SI's perspective, the benefits of using it outweigh the drawbacks of it, so it makes business sense to carry on using it.

From an end-user perspective, you're free to like it or dislike it. If you want to play FM, you have to use it. If you dislike Steam enough, then you won't play FM. Personally, I am very much in the "tinfoil hat" brigade that thinks Steam and other platforms like it are a very dangerous direction for the industry to be headed, especially from a consumer's perspective. But the situation and software is neither "phenomenal" nor is it "a complete joke". Let's use realistic terms here.

[TheFiesty_One]

What was the Steam update to T&Cs about anyway? Why such a big problem with agreeing to it?

[themadsheep2001]

What was the Steam update to T&Cs about anyway? Why such a big problem with agreeing to it?

Check my big post above, that was the change.

[Jedaye]

That's just as silly a statement as the extreme haters on the other end of the argument.

There are strengths and weaknesses to platforms like Steam, and there are strengths and weaknesses to Steam specifically. From SI's perspective, the benefits of using it outweigh the drawbacks of it, so it makes business sense to carry on using it.

From an end-user perspective, you're free to like it or dislike it. If you want to play FM, you have to use it. If you dislike Steam enough, then you won't play FM. Personally, I am very much in the "tinfoil hat" brigade that thinks Steam and other platforms like it are a very dangerous direction for the industry to be headed, especially from a consumer's perspective. But the situation and software is neither "phenomenal" nor is it "a complete joke". Let's use realistic terms here.

As above........

No one should be required to have 3rd party software installed to run a game. Any game. If you buy something through steam that is your choice. If you buy something else where you should not be required to use it or be required to sign another ToU other then the software I have paid money for. AFAIK I know fm have put in hooks that have effected cracked versions of the game for at least 5 years.

I used to quite active around here and only re-activated my account to agree with the above post.

[La Furia Roja]

Just to add 2c.

My biggest gripe, last night I wanted a game 'Could not connect to steam' took me 25 minutes to play a game I own?

For one of the mods to say all we own is a licence is ridiculous, I own a disk full of software, which I have installed on my computer. I don't log in remotely to play the game or anything like that, I do exactly the same as I did before steam.

I just think it is unfair to force this on to people, I know you say its for DRM etc, but there are other ways, not every game runs through steam and I am sure they have just as much, more than likely alot more, people trying to pirate it. As a consumer it feels like Stam was the easy answer and I am sure the best financially, which I know as you are running a business is very important. Its a fine line between making a profit and keeping some very loyal fans happy, I think this has crossed it.

I am normally one of the people sticking up for the game when everyone says how bad it is, but FM11 in my eyes was quite poor as I think across the board alot agreed with, however, most of us still went out and got 12 even though we were forced to get steam. But, again me personally, have found myself several times complaining to myself sitting at my pc about steam not working or waiting for steam to update, I really do not see me getting 13 or any others until its gone.

I agree with the feeling that if I buy a game on a disk I should not have to run through another program to play it. It states nowhere on the box etc before I buy it that I need to, it just says steam is required to activate it not that I need it constantly running to play.

But unfortunately it seems its here to stay, the only real way to stop it isn't to whinge and moan on the forums, its to vote with your feet. If sales drop dramatically I am sure Steam will be gone, the down side we need to give up a game we love to be able to do so. A no win really. A shame that SI/SEGA have forced this upon its consumers with no market research that I have seen anyway as you think this board would be where it would have been done.

[ongy2k3]

This thread is just hilarious. I'm guessing no one actually read the SSA? Just to amuse myself further, I'm going to reply to some.

So do Steam have the right to stop me playing FM if I don't agree to their sub t&c

If you bought a hard copy from a store you should not have to agree to Valves new terms

We've paid for FM, not for Steam. I am convinced they can not withhold our product the way they are doing

it just says steam is required to activate it not that I need it constantly running to pla

It's the same as pretty much every service; don't agree with the T&Cs = no service. And it does state on the retail case "product offered subject to Steam Subscriber Agreement. You must activate this product... and accept the SSA. If you do not agree... return this game unopened to your retailer".

For one of the mods to say all we own is a licence is ridiculous, I own a disk full of software

You don't own the game, you own a copy of the licence to play the game iirc

As a software developer, this is true. You don't own the game, the game is Sport Interactive's/SEGAs intellectual property. You don't own the code. You don't own the copyrighted material licensed to this game. Same with other software & multimedia. Somewhat similar too to items, such as cards, that state "This property belongs to Company X", even though you posses it.

Youre entitled to a refund under UK law if they alter the T&C which means you are worse off.

You're entitled to a refund of £0 as Steam had nothing to do with the transaction. The license to the game was bought from SI/SEGA, not Valve.

I know you say its for DRM etc, but there are other ways

There are other ways, you're right. But they're all worse. Either having the disc present in the drive (what happens when your disc becomes corrupted?) or having to be connected to the internet all the time (if you're connection drops, the games force closes). No names. UbiSoft. Tell me a better alternative to the Steam/Origin way?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


But the best thing about Steam is the ability to push patches out. Why should the developers have to put up with hundreds more bug threads because not everyone's up-to-date. And hopefully sometime in the future we'll be able to take advantage of Steam and make network games easier.

[Salad Daze]

That's a completely unfounded statement, we have towers made of Gold not ivory.

Seriously though, as everyone has said in this thread the use of Steam has allowed us to make sure the game was not pirated before release and that the pirates are right now not playing the latest version of FM12 available. If you look in our support forums we try to get every single user up and running if we can. We have great respect for our community and all we ask in return is respect back. Statements like yours aren't constructive or useful on these forums, it just comes across as abusive.

Fair enough, I will refrain from making comments in such a tone in future.

[Cougar2010]

That's a completely unfounded statement, we have towers made of Gold not ivory.

Seriously though, as everyone has said in this thread the use of Steam has allowed us to make sure the game was not pirated before release and that the pirates are right now not playing the latest version of FM12 available. If you look in our support forums we try to get every single user up and running if we can. We have great respect for our community and all we ask in return is respect back. Statements like yours aren't constructive or useful on these forums, it just comes across as abusive.

Whilst I can understand the positives of Steam (pirates & patching) it still has negatives. Despite having Steam it is the single, only reason that I haven't purchased FM12 which is the first time ever I haven't bought a SI game.

Having used Steam which I'll happily admit works 99% of the time for large % of users it still has issues with offline mode, they have T&Cs which are arguably illegal under UK law and their customer service is quite frankly poor which is far below the standard that SI set.

I fully understand why SI used Steam for FM12 and why you'll probably continue to use Steam in the foreseeable future but until they can improve the negatives above I would like to suggest a compromise: An initial Steam release and then once the final patch is released another release that is not Steam restricted (Perhaps even download only to keep costs down).

[FrazT]

Salad Daze- please take your own advice from your last post.

[Wakers]

Fwiw, in the EU you can't sign away your rights to legal action just by clicking "Accept" on a T&C for any service.

[steve_r]

To read, digest and understand the pages and pages of T&C's that Stream put up on my screen would have taken hours and hours, or possibly days and days. Why not just hi-light the changes they made? Severe lack of common sense.

All this legal bull to play a football game is frankly ridiculous.

Unfortunately this seems to be the way with every piece of software these days.

[Wakers]

I think the problem that SI have is that a game like FM is one of those rare pieces of software that have fans who only play FM and not other games.

So when you use a platform like Steam, which is geared towards people who play lots of different games, the two situations don't mesh together parituclarly well. The FMers won't really understand or care to learn why Steam is so complex and it is indeed a convoluted way to play the only game that you own.

Where Steam excels is for those that play lots of games, that like to have them all managed by one piece of software that can keep save files through hardware upgrades / relocation.

[Sir_Liam]

I've kept Steam in offline mode (except when patching) and I've not had any issues.

Someone on these forums a while back suggested that SI recommend keeping Steam in offline mode to avoid these problems, which sounds like a good idea as a lot of FM players (myself included) have no need for Steam apart from playing FM.

[SCIAG]

Tell me a better alternative to the Steam/Origin way?

The activation used for FM09.

You had a choice:
Digitally download the game
Activate through Steam
Activate via the internet (one time only connection)
Activate via the phone

Unfortunately there was a DDoS attack on Soft Anchor (the company running the internet activation) the day the game was released, so some people had to wait a couple of days to play. Also, it was hard to tell the difference between some characters in the code (e.g. 0 and O). Massive storm of hate directed at SI as a result, so they stopped using it and the company went out of business. In comparison, the fury about compulsory use of Steam is practically jubilant.

[postal postie]

[I]

YOU AND VALVE AGREE NOT TO BRING OR PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, PRIVATE ATTORNEY GENERAL ACTION OR COLLECTIVE ARBITRATION, EVEN IF AAA's PROCEDURES OR RULES WOULD OTHERWISE ALLOW ONE. THE ARBITRATOR MAY AWARD RELIEF ONLY IN FAVOR OF THE INDIVIDUAL PARTY SEEKING RELIEF AND ONLY TO THE EXTENT OF THAT PARTY'S INDIVIDUAL CLAIM. You and Valve also agree not to seek to combine any action or arbitration with any other action or arbitration without the consent of all parties to this Agreement and all other actions or arbitrations.

i'm sure that would be considered an Unfair Clause in a contract and wouldn't be enforceble - in the uk, at least.

of course, STEAM could just cancel your account and you would lose access to all your games. then it depends on if you would really want to fight that possibility, as to whether you would get your account reinstated or get compensation.

[randomale]

Interesting to note that Valve have stated that Windows 8 is a catastrophe for Steam (and some gaming in general) http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2407662,00.asp

The real issue with a Steam only option is lack of choice for the consumers who are getting more and more tired of corporate greed and there are other much better and bigger oportunities to tackle piracy which will hit the pirates at the point of origin rather than just make it more difficult to crack the game or an updated version of it.

Add on the fact that you have to be 13 or over to sign up for a Steam account and that their T&C's, if you refuse them, mean you can't play FM12 it really is a poor option for the consumer.

[Wakers]

Valve owner Newell only came out and said that because he's worried that MS will try and close off the Windows platform with their own store and thus take money from Steam. In actual gaming terms Windows 8 will be even better than Windows 7, from a performance stand point.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah what windows are trying to do is make windows like an Iphone platform where you have to buy anything you want to install through their own store, which would mean things like games on steam would become more expensive as windows would want a cut for anything designed for their platform.

[tomtuck01]

Why wouldn't you just accept the T&C's? I'm baffled.

[milnerpoint]

Because we all want to sue Valve at some point in our life and this takes away our right, damm the man, long live the empire.

[fcunitedfan]

You should all do what I do. Don't read that kind of stuff, and just click to say I accept it. I want to play the game, and as long as I can do so, I don't care about all the legal stuff. If Steam being involved means pirated copies are harder to come by, I'm happy to be using Steam to play FM12.

[randomale]

Why wouldn't you just accept the T&C's? I'm baffled.

Range of reasons I guess, mainly for me it is the fact that I'm not agreeing with them and one of the terms state if you break the T&C's then your membership/account can be deleted.

So lets say an under 13 year old opens an account, just as an example, thats against the T&C's and if they found out they would have the option of deleting the account and that person would lose all their games on Steam.

A range of other examples also mean that agreeing to T&C's can be problematic, ask yourself this more important question.......why do companies ask you to tick to say you have read, understand, and agree to them?!!!!!

[Jops14]

Its interesting to note what impact steam has actually had in terms of sales?

Its often argued in many areas of piracy that the pirates aren't "true" consumers, and therefore without pirating wouldn't purchase the item at all. Obviously the developers don't see it this way and see any pirate as a lost sale, however it would be interesting to look at incremental sales figures over a 5 years and see if the introduction of steam has significantly raised sales with pirates being forced to purchase the game, or if its continued on the same trends.

[themadsheep2001]

Range of reasons I guess, mainly for me it is the fact that I'm not agreeing with them and one of the terms state if you break the T&C's then your membership/account can be deleted.

So lets say an under 13 year old opens an account, just as an example, thats against the T&C's and if they found out they would have the option of deleting the account and that person would lose all their games on Steam.

A range of other examples also mean that agreeing to T&C's can be problematic, ask yourself this more important question.......why do companies ask you to tick to say you have read, understand, and agree to them?!!!!!

An under 13 can have the account opened by someone over 13 and given access to This has been brought up before in one of the many threads on Steam.

Your final question is a very good one though.

[randomale]

Its interesting to note what impact steam has actually had in terms of sales?

Its often argued in many areas of piracy that the pirates aren't "true" consumers, and therefore without pirating wouldn't purchase the item at all. Obviously the developers don't see it this way and see any pirate as a lost sale, however it would be interesting to look at incremental sales figures over a 5 years and see if the introduction of steam has significantly raised sales with pirates being forced to purchase the game, or if its continued on the same trends.

I think you would need to review the sales over a 5 year period from Steams introduction to gauge the impact as I think the bad press is more likely to affect future versions rather than FM12 as many didn't really realise the whole Steam saga and what it actually meant.

Some unoffical stats are:
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/57526/f...-manager-2012/

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/43886/f...-manager-2011/

I think to then have FM13,14 and 15 stats (unsure how accurate those stats are) would give a good indication as to the benefit if any of the decision making process (although other things would need to be taken into account as well not just sales).

[randomale]

An under 13 can have the account opened by someone over 13 and given access to This has been brought up before in one of the many threads on Steam.

Your final question is a very good one though.

The Steam T&C's actually state that you cannot open an account for another person or allow them access to it other wise you will break the T&C's I believe.

EDIT: You may not reveal, share or otherwise allow others to use your password or Account. You agree that you are personally responsible for the use of your password and Account and for all of the communication and activity on Steam that results from use of your login name and password. You may not sell or charge others for the right to use your Account, or otherwise transfer your Account, nor may you sell, charge others for the right to use, or transfer any Subscriptions other than if and as expressly permitted by this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use).

Taken from Steam subscriber agreement that you have to agree to on T&C's so unsure if the workaround you suggested is actually 'legal' and if found out I suppose could lead to the Steam account being closed.

[milnerpoint]

This has been covered, Steam will not ban any account opened by a parent for their child under 13, as long as the parent accepts full responsibility for their childs actions whilst using the account, but what does it matter, do you think Steam check everyone who signs up to their service? Have you read a single report of any under 13 person having their account closed because they were found to be under 13?

Infact, here we go, from the horses mouth so to speak,

Valve(TM) accepts that parents will let their children use their Steam® accounts and that young siblings are each likely to use common or household accounts.

[randomale]

This has been covered, Steam will not ban any account opened by a parent for their child under 13, as long as the parent accepts full responsibility for their childs actions whilst using the account, but what does it matter, do you think Steam check everyone who signs up to their service? Have you read a single report of any under 13 person having their account closed because they were found to be under 13?

Infact, here we go, from the horses mouth so to speak,

That's interesting, wonder why they haven't changed their T&C's as those are what are legally binding (within reason) and a statement from someone unfortunately isn't.

[Jops14]

I think you would need to review the sales over a 5 year period from Steams introduction to gauge the impact as I think the bad press is more likely to affect future versions rather than FM12 as many didn't really realise the whole Steam saga and what it actually meant.

Some unoffical stats are:
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/57526/f...-manager-2012/

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/43886/f...-manager-2011/

I think to then have FM13,14 and 15 stats (unsure how accurate those stats are) would give a good indication as to the benefit if any of the decision making process (although other things would need to be taken into account as well not just sales).

Well it look like there has been an increase on sales over the previous version unfortunately its meaningless without other years! As you say it would be a good idea to look at figures over a year year period after the introduction of steam, though it would be better if those could then be compared to years prior to steam to actually compare the impact.

Perhaps the extra advantage for SI lies in the wider distribution selling through steam gives them, you could argue even without the protection offered by steam Fm going onto that platform would have been inevitable with wider distribution.

id love to be able to look at the official data though! Also sales of CM03/04 appear to be at the same level of this years game, so i wonder what impact the split had to sales figures too...

[milnerpoint]

That's interesting, wonder why they haven't changed their T&C's as those are what are legally binding (within reason) and a statement from someone unfortunately isn't.

There is no need to, the legal standing is uner 13's cannot sign up with their own details because of privacy laws in the USA, if a parent accepts responsibility then there is no issue. If the child was to sign up on their own and put in their real DOB valve would email and ask for their parents to confirm they accept this, otherwise, yes they will shut the account down.

But like i say, has this ever happened? How would valve catch anyone underage? Why do you care?

[Neil Brock]

Interesting to note that Valve have stated that Windows 8 is a catastrophe for Steam (and some gaming in general) http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2407662,00.asp

The real issue with a Steam only option is lack of choice for the consumers who are getting more and more tired of corporate greed and there are other much better and bigger oportunities to tackle piracy which will hit the pirates at the point of origin rather than just make it more difficult to crack the game or an updated version of it.

Add on the fact that you have to be 13 or over to sign up for a Steam account and that their T&C's, if you refuse them, mean you can't play FM12 it really is a poor option for the consumer.

I'm really interested to hear what these are. Please, go on.

[randomale]

Well it look like there has been an increase on sales over the previous version unfortunately its meaningless without other years! As you say it would be a good idea to look at figures over a year year period after the introduction of steam, though it would be better if those could then be compared to years prior to steam to actually compare the impact.

Perhaps the extra advantage for SI lies in the wider distribution selling through steam gives them, you could argue even without the protection offered by steam Fm going onto that platform would have been inevitable with wider distribution.

id love to be able to look at the official data though! Also sales of CM03/04 appear to be at the same level of this years game, so i wonder what impact the split had to sales figures too...

Yeah I did go back to FM10 on that site but it said 0.2 million sales which seemed a bit out of whack so assumed it wasn't to be trusted any further back!

I think SI/Sega have admitted that piracy is only one reason for Steam and that there are a myriad of other advantages and costs cuts that it gives them. I like the idea of firms actually tackling the sites that advocate and allow piracy and going after the people that have downloaded pirated copies as this is possible and is starting to be done by some.

That would tackle the issue at source a lot better and firms could get together to help push this through and then the innocent wouldn't be 'punished' due to the pirates abuse of the laws.

[randomale]

I'm really interested to hear what these are. Please, go on.

As per my last post Neil.

You tackle the pirates at their source, you try to take the website down through EU and Internatioanl law and probably the easier route is that you use the existing EU laws to make the ISP's provide data to you of who has illegally downlaoded the game content and threaten them with legal action.

This is already being looked at by some firms and tackles the pirates only, not the innocents.

[randomale]

There is no need to, the legal standing is uner 13's cannot sign up with their own details because of privacy laws in the USA, if a parent accepts responsibility then there is no issue. If the child was to sign up on their own and put in their real DOB valve would email and ask for their parents to confirm they accept this, otherwise, yes they will shut the account down.

But like i say, has this ever happened? How would valve catch anyone underage? Why do you care?

I don't know if it has ever happened.

How would they catch them?....not sure either.

Why do I care?......mainly due to the fact that being asked to sign up to T&C's when you know you are going to breach them immediately is dishonest and could lead to the account being deleted if they did manage to find out.

[RiverReveal666]

This is the way I thought about accepting the new T&Cs:

Have I ever taken a large corporation to court....the answer was no.

Have I ever taken legal advice about a taking a large corporation to court....the answer was no.

Is it worth not playing FM right now, just in case, one day, I did want to take this particular large corporation to court....the answer was still no.

I ticked the box.

One day Steam may screw me over, one day if I leave my house it may get burgled, one day if I stay in my house the roof may collapse, one day I may just tick another box and play another game, such is life.

[milnerpoint]

As per my last post Neil.

You tackle the pirates at their source, you try to take the website down through EU and Internatioanl law and probably the easier route is that you use the existing EU laws to make the ISP's provide data to you of who has illegally downlaoded the game content and threaten them with legal action.

This is already being looked at by some firms and tackles the pirates only, not the innocents.

Do you mean like they have tackled pirate music and film sites? You do know that war has been going on for 10 years now and neither the music or film industry is any closer to shutting them down? They will never ever win that war, ever.

[milnerpoint]

I don't know if it has ever happened.

How would they catch them?....not sure either.

Why do I care?......mainly due to the fact that being asked to sign up to T&C's when you know you are going to breach them immediately is dishonest and could lead to the account being deleted if they did manage to find out.

Are you under 13?
Which part of the T&C's are you planning on breaching? Are you planning a law suit against Valve any time soon? If you did would you have the financial backing to take on Valve?

[randomale]

Do you mean like they have tackled pirate music and film sites? You do know that war has been going on for 10 years now and neither the music or film industry is any closer to shutting them down? They will never ever win that war, ever.

I think the tide is turning, ISP's for the first time in the UK have been issued court orders forcing them to disclose users who have downloaded pirated copies.

This is relatively recent but is a landmark case and thiscase law now enables a host of other companies to individually or collectively consider this type of action against the sites/users ofthem.

If the users realise that they will be potentially found out in downloading a pirated copy then they may just decide to buy a 'clean' copy instead. It is in the infancy but I certainly don't agree with they will never win the war.

This strategic way of tackling the issue is nice to see as it only punishes the people who have committed the 'crime'. Time will tell I suppose.

[randomale]

Are you under 13?
Which part of the T&C's are you planning on breaching? Are you planning a law suit against Valve any time soon? If you did would you have the financial backing to take on Valve?

Me personally no I'm over 13 but know people who are under and got the game brought for Xmas, went onto Steam and started crying when they realised they couldn't play the game as they couldn't legally create a Steam account and no other user legally could create one for them.

I'm not planning on breaching any I don't think.

Lawsuit isn't planned no but I kinda like that option left open to be honest, or lets have it both ways, I can't sure them they can't me! (by the way if suing them was so remote why add it to their T&C's!!)

Anyway just my take on the situation, we all like different things.

[milnerpoint]

Me personally no I'm over 13 but know people who are under and got the game brought for Xmas, went onto Steam and started crying when they realised they couldn't play the game as they couldn't legally create a Steam account and no other user legally could create one for them.

I'm not planning on breaching any I don't think.

Lawsuit isn't planned no but I kinda like that option left open to be honest, or lets have it both ways, I can't sure them they can't me! (by the way if suing them was so remote why add it to their T&C's!!)

Anyway just my take on the situation, we all like different things.

So your under 13 friends read all of the T&C's of Steam? Or did you point that out to them? Did you do any research into the situation or did you just read the T&C's and gave up from there? Like i say, if anyone even bothered to get intouch with Valve, your friend wouldnt have had to cry, they would have been given instructions from Valve and would be happily playing the game now.

Massive companies have every base covered, thats just the nature of them.

[Jops14]

Yeah I did go back to FM10 on that site but it said 0.2 million sales which seemed a bit out of whack so assumed it wasn't to be trusted any further back!

I think SI/Sega have admitted that piracy is only one reason for Steam and that there are a myriad of other advantages and costs cuts that it gives them. I like the idea of firms actually tackling the sites that advocate and allow piracy and going after the people that have downloaded pirated copies as this is possible and is starting to be done by some.

That would tackle the issue at source a lot better and firms could get together to help push this through and then the innocent wouldn't be 'punished' due to the pirates abuse of the laws.

Yes but as milnerpoint pointed out that is a battle that has been going on for years and though industry action has stepped up there are so many people its unlikely to ever be shut down through these routes.

The issue is as many problems and irratations it can cause for the end users, it really is the best option for a business as a whole at this point in time. Only time will be able to tell of its impact on sales.

[busngabb]

The thing with Steam is that it refuses to let you play the game at just the moment you want to play it most. I play the game sporadically through the year, events in real life football will get my interest and I'll play a career for five or six seasons. I'll then get bored and leave it a while. Whenever I come to play it, there is always a problem with Steam. I've never been able to get it's offline mode to work properly, the updates always cause problems, I've had my account suspended without any reason. Steam's customer support is awful. As I've said in this thread I only play one game on my laptop and it's so annoying having bought it to be denied the chance to play it by a third party piece of software I never wanted. It really is incredibly frustrating as I don't want or use any of Steam's features.

I wouldn't mind getting the game late and paying double just to avoid using Steam. It's scandalous that you can't avoid it.

[chrismarkham1982]

Has anyone actually bothered to read the bit that states 'the new addition to the terms and conditions most likely, will not apply to anyone outside the US'.
Its there in plain sight next to the 'AGREE' + 'DISAGREE' box's.

[Barkermush]

Actions speak louder than words imo.

Will be interesting to see if FM13 is as succesful as FM12, now people will now know for sure, that Steam is a must if they want to play the game.
I've known of quite a few people who don't use these forums, who buy the game every year, I wonder how many of them will opt out on the next FM?
Only time will tell I guess.

Like somebody posted further in this thread, all it said on the box, was that Steam was needed to activate the game. (Not that Steam/ a Steam account is needed at all times to be able to play FM etc)

Anyway, I've just encountered this, I just tried loading FM but it wouldn't let me, saying I must agree to the new terms and conditions.

I was wondering if people who have set there Steam to offline mode, can still play the game without having to agree to the uptodate terms and cons?
It will be bad if they can't, say if somebody doesn't have any internet.. they've already done all the messing about of moving there PC to somewhere with interenet, then installing/registering Steam, logging in, and then switching it to offline mode, hoping that was it, and never having to mess about with it all again.

[CLS]

This really is ridiculous. Having Steam as a requirement for the game is one thing, people can see the condition before they make the purchase. I don't agree with it but SI are within their rights to do that. Changing the condition after the game has been paid for is unacceptable: when the game was purchased, we had no way of knowing our access to it would be withdrawn unless we gave up our rights. If the conditions are changed, all customers who disagree with them should be entitled to a full refund.

[chestermike]

I dont have a problem with steam, and I havent really delved into the depths of the platform. One quick little point though, I find it interesting that SI will pay for a platform to minimise the pirate copies, but will not entertain the idea of dedicated servers to improve online play.

[tomtuck01]

Still yet to see a sensible explanation for not agreeing to the amedments to the T&C's.

[scott MUFC]

no one reads T&C, and why would you need to file lawsuits against valve anyway
steam has plenty of problems login is buggy, the steam browser is buggy, some games on steam do stupid things.
our rights? the EU has been eating those for years, and anything they can't uphold cant be upheld, if this change was found to be illegal in a country, could you still file a lawsuit?
but steam should have the same rules as a shop, as that what it is mainly for. which is why i dislike the fact you cant take the games you bought OFF steam, so they ban you or you get hacked, you lose access to your paid for games.

interstingly i did one close steam down while playing FM (via task manager) and FM still ran

[Charlie_B]

Its interesting to note what impact steam has actually had in terms of sales?

Its often argued in many areas of piracy that the pirates aren't "true" consumers, and therefore without pirating wouldn't purchase the item at all. Obviously the developers don't see it this way and see any pirate as a lost sale, however it would be interesting to look at incremental sales figures over a 5 years and see if the introduction of steam has significantly raised sales with pirates being forced to purchase the game, or if its continued on the same trends.

Indeed. When I was younger there used to be a market stall that sold copied Playstation games for a couple of quid. Eventually it was shut down, but that didn't send hordes of people running to Electronics Boutique. People i knew either made do with the games they had, played on their Playstation less, or started buying old copies of demos from PSX magazine from a second hand shop down the road. It's basic economics that a low price point significantly increases demand and my feeling is that you'd have to go through many thousands of people who got something because it was free before you found one who would have been happy to pay full price for it.

I've also always been perplexed by SI's trumpteting of the fact that Steam stopped the game being cracked pre-release. For one thing that's not necessarily true - SI can't possibly know that, they only know that it wasn't widely avaialble before release, but more importantly it strikes me as bizzare to suggest that large numbers of people who would usually pirate a game instead ran to the shops rather than wait 10 days for it to be cracked.

As people say, it will be interesting to see how this pans out in the long run. After enduring Steam for FM 2012 I certainly won't be buying another game that forces me to use it.

[Charlie_B]

Still yet to see a sensible explanation for not agreeing to the amedments to the T&C's.

It's immoral to prevent people from playing a game they've already bought unless they agree to sign away consumer rights that they were entitled to when the original contract was agreed.

It's also nidicative of a worrying trend - powerful companies trying to shirk their responsibilities by coercing customers. Sega have forced us embrace Steam in order to play FM. As a result Steam are building up value that they can leveage against us - and they're doing so. What will we have to give up next?

Do you not think Steam and SEGA have had their lawyers check all of this before even starting this form of DRM?

Do you not think SONY had their lawyers check everything out before installing rootkit DRM on people's computers? Yeah, they probably did. Still got sued over it - and lost.

[Boltman]

it strikes me as bizzare to suggest that large numbers of people who would usually pirate a game instead ran to the shops rather than wait 10 days for it to be cracked.

It seems that SI view the trade off between the lost custom from people who refuse to be compelled to install Steam, and the reduction in piracy, as entirely worthwhile.

Understandable from a financial point of view, but the unalterable fact is that in order to reduce piracy they have also alienated a proportion of their formerly loyal and perfectly honest customer base, which is clearly in contradiction to the repeated talk from SI bods we see about 'respect' and valuing their FM user base.

I have not bought FM12, and I will never consider buying any version of FM which compels me to install Steam. I can understand SI's policy, but it just saddens me that they make no provision at all for people who have no desire to use Steam. It's just a matter of choice, and my desire to play FM does not outweigh my dislike of publishers foisting an entirely unwelcome and superfluous third party program upon people wishing to buy their product, therefore SI will miss out on my custom for however long they persist with Steam activation.

Sucks, but hey ho, I'll live.

I've overcome my aversion to digital download, and I'd be quite happy to pay for a non-physical copy of FM, but SI don't seem to want to give me that option, so I can only assume they don't want my money. Odd, but there you go.

[themadsheep2001]

It seems that SI view the trade off between the lost custom from people who refuse to be compelled to install Steam, and the reduction in piracy, as entirely worthwhile.

Understandable from a financial point of view, but the unalterable fact is that in order to reduce piracy they have also alienated a proportion of their formerly loyal and perfectly honest customer base, which is clearly in contradiction to the repeated talk from SI bods we see about 'respect' and valuing their FM user base.

I have not bought FM12, and I will never consider buying any version of FM which compels me to install Steam. I can understand SI's policy, but it just saddens me that they make no provision at all for people who have no desire to use Steam. It's just a matter of choice, and my desire to play FM does not outweigh my dislike of publishers foisting an entirely unwelcome and superfluous third party program upon people wishing to buy their product, therefore SI will miss out on my custom for however long they persist with Steam activation.

Sucks, but hey ho, I'll live.

I've overcome my aversion to digital download, and I'd be quite happy to pay for a non-physical copy of FM, but SI don't seem to want to give me that option, so I can only assume they don't want my money. Odd, but there you go.

Its not really in contradiction, and not really a lack of respect or valuing either. It's not something they did lightly, just because some might not like the decision doesnt mean its a lack of respect. Taking a decision that you don't agree with isn't a lack of respect. And subjective as to whether its unwelcome, some like it some don't, some don't care in either way. And it worked well enough for them to hire more staff to improve the game.

But this has been done to death and isnt relevant to the change in T and C.

[Boltman]

Its not really in contradiction, and not really a lack of respect or valuing either. It's not something they did lightly, just because some might not like the decision doesnt mean its a lack of respect. Taking a decision that you don't agree with isn't a lack of respect. And subjective as to whether its unwelcome, some like it some don't, some don't care in either way. And it worked well enough for them to hire more staff to improve the game.

But this has been done to death and isnt relevant to the change in T and C.

How is 'Steam, or get stuffed' not showing a lack of regard for your customers? As I said, I'm not a pirate, I've always paid SI for their products in the past and would happily do so again, but not if they're going to insist that I must install Steam in order to use their product.

Again, I'm not raging at SI, nor do I have any axe to grind with people who are perfectly happy to use Steam, I'm just disappointed that SI don't seem interested in providing a non-Steam option.

And I'd argue that it's entirely relevant to the changes in T&C, since it's not only the technical or functional side of Steam I have issues with, it's also the continuing blatant disregard for the rights of the customer. They way publishers are going with DRM is utterly contemptuous of the customer, and it seems to be increasingly so. They now take the line that the money you pay is for a licence, which entitles you to nothing at all in reality, because they reserve the right to change T&C's on a whim after the purchase is made but do not offer you the choice to back out and have a refund, they reserve the right to remove your access to the product you thought you'd bought at any point they choose and with no explanation, they refuse to allow you to sell the licence on, and on top of this, they expect you to accept this all by asking you to click 'yes' to a deliberately vague and meaningless EULA.

Pretty much boils down to 'we're taking your money, and in return we're going to have no obligation to you at all, and you're going to have to waive your rights before we even permit you to use the product you believe you've paid for'. Sorry, but I'm not willing to enter into a contract which is so obviously and blatantly designed to screw the user and absolve the seller of all obligations and responsibilities.

This is why I mentioned respect. SI want me to respect their hard work by paying for their product, but the publishers clearly have no respect for my rights as a consumer. It goes both ways.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Its not really in contradiction, and not really a lack of respect or valuing either. It's not something they did lightly, just because some might not like the decision doesnt mean its a lack of respect. Taking a decision that you don't agree with isn't a lack of respect. And subjective as to whether its unwelcome, some like it some don't, some don't care in either way. And it worked well enough for them to hire more staff to improve the game.

But this has been done to death and isnt relevant to the change in T and C.

You can't possibly know that unless you work for the company and/or witnessed the decision making process, but it doesn't matter, the bottom line, is they did it.

I think it is relevant to the T&C changes as it is yet one more thing that prevents people from playing their game when they want to. SI/SAGA were pretty pleased with themselves when Steam achieved what they were after as regards preventing pre-release piracy, but they may have been a bit premature in patting themselves on the back as the real effects of the inclusion of Steam in FM may not be felt until FM13. I don't know one player who hasn't, at some time, been prevented from playing FM12 because of Steam and if this is as common as it seems - and the negative reaction to it - then there could be a decline in sales this year should FM13 include Steam.

[themadsheep2001]

You can't possibly know that unless you work for the company and/or witnessed the decision making process, but it doesn't matter, the bottom line, is they did it.

I think it is relevant to the T&C changes as it is yet one more thing that prevents people from playing their game when they want to. SI/SAGA were pretty pleased with themselves when Steam achieved what they were after as regards preventing pre-release piracy, but they may have been a bit premature in patting themselves on the back as the real effects of the inclusion of Steam in FM may not be felt until FM13. I don't know one player who hasn't, at some time, been prevented from playing FM12 because of Steam and if this is as common as it seems - and the negative reaction to it - then there could be a decline in sales this year should FM13 include Steam.

Considering this was something they came out and said, then yes I can know it. Unless you believe they were lying when they said (check the inital steam thread).

It isn't relevant, unless you live in the US and plan on suing Valve anytime soon, otherwise said amendment, which i posted above in post 24, has practically no impact and does not prevent you from playing the game when you want.

'the new addition to the terms and conditions most likely, will not apply to anyone outside the US'

[Barkermush]

Still yet to see a sensible explanation for not agreeing to the amedments to the T&C's.

Maybe not.

But what about the people who may not have internet acess, and have a PC computer at home?
It's aload of messing about for them, having to move there PC to somewhere with an internet connection, to be able to agree to the new terms and conditions.. just so they can play FM12 again.

I'm not sure how many of these people they are, but I know a guy at work (in his late 30's) who's played CM since the early 90's. And he just has a PC computer at home, that he uses to play some FM in his free time. He has no internet, and I remember him going on about all the hassle he had with the latest FM, by having to take his PC to his nephews house, to register Steam etc so he could play FM.
He had hassle because (not having to disconnect all his wires, for the monitor/keyboard/mouse and driving to his nephews) but because his nephew only had wifi broadband, and his PC didn't have any built in wifi reciever.. so he made a couple of wasted trips, before having to end up buying a usb plugin wifi thing for his PC.
I've not seen him since this new terms and condition thing has just come in, so I've no idea how he will have got on with this.

Also, one of women I work with, I told her I play Football manager, and she got telling me about her husband and that he plays FM too (he's in his late 40's) I've asked her if he plays FM12.. and when she came back the next day, she said no, he plays one of the older games.
A few days later, after going back and forth.. she said he plays one of the older CM's (CM01/02 she thinks) because he can't play the new one because it needs the internet, and they don't have internet. She said he prefers that game (cm01-02) more than any of the other recent FM games he's gotten, so he plays that every now and then.

I think it's mainly the older generation (the ones in there early 40's etc) who will suffer. Because most of these don't have internet, some probably barely know how to use a computer, and just use it to play Football manager. So I doubt they would have the slightest idea about using pirate software, nevermind be interested in it.

The younger generation are fine with Steam though (knowing how to use it that is, they may all not be happy about having to use it though) because having internet access is the norm.

[vlobben]

Most (all?) newer cellphones can be used as a modem to gain temporary access to internet. This saved me when going to an isolated place for vacation without setting steam in offline mode before i left

[Kriss]

Too much deja vu here, and when people over 40 get tarred as the great unwashed of technology it's definitely time to close it