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Thread: How am I able to win everything with a 1-6-3?

  1. #1

    Default How am I able to win everything with a 1-6-3?

    on my red star I decided to make the most extreme attacking tactic possible because I was bored+too many amazing AMC regens coming in, so I created a 1-6-3

    To my surprise instead of losing, my team got better. i have now won the European cup 3 times in a row using this tactic. and done a quadrouple 2 years in a row.

    It is

    --------------SK(A)-----------------
    ---------------DC(D)---------------
    ---------------DM(D)--------------
    DW(S)---------DLP(S)---------DW(S)
    -----------AM(A)---AP(S)-----------
    W(A)------------TM(A)---------IF(A)

    I dont play high work rate defenders in the DW positions, I play guys with all out winger stats and little defensive prowess.

    with short passing set on everyone, and little risks, DW hug touchline, W and IF cut inside.
    How can I describe this-the formation plays like barcelona only 3x as dominant, even against much more talented teams they are getting dominated.

    Surely a formation with one defender should get demolished, and yes the opposing team often gets 3-4 breakaways a game. However, the way the match engine works is for some reason if a play runs with the ball all they way from midfield they usually sky it over or miss the chance, no matter his stats or how easy the opportunity.

    My keeper is not godly. Aleksandar Kirovski is below average I'd say even, compared to other top Champions League keepers.

    Is this this a mistake in the engine? a 1-6-3 should be getting destroyed by everyone and instead the opposite is happening.

  2. #2

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    I presume you have so many people up front and you're holding on to so much possession the opposition just sits in their box and has no idea what to do against you. Just like all the teams that lost in the World Cup vs Spain. They sat back and had a panic attack.

    That's my assumption though, I can't tell without watching a game highlights.

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    Indeed, please upload a PKM!

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    I'm currently using this, and having good success with it. I like to think of it as a 3-7-0 as the ST and AMC swap positions very often, with the ST dropping rather deep - with end of game heat maps showing the position of the ST in line with the attacking midfielders. It's the closest I've replicated to the Spanish/Barcelona style of midfield domination and short passing, and can reguarly achieve goals from upwards of 25 passes after being played out from the keeper.

    I'd suggest your going to struggle with the formation you have, as you aren't necessarily filling the midfield with players - of which helps in terms of ball retention, making space for full backs to give width and get forward, and aids in the pressurizing of the ball when relinquished, forcing the opponents into rushed clearances. You have Inside forwards, where I'd suggest that central attacking midfielders operate in a similar position your looking for, and will move into the channels - this will therefore help you to stretch teams by packing the midfield and leaving room for the 'out ball' out to the full backs, or in this case the defensive wingers.

    It would be very interesting to see a PKM of one of the matches, as I'd think that you could maximize the efficiency of the system by moving the inside forwards in, for them then be able to venture out - so instead of wide to come inside, they would play inside to move wide - this would then allow for the wide midfielders room to work with.

    I've allowed my full backs, who are actually sweepers high mentalities with forward runs, often they will stretch the opposition by providing an overlap from deep, whilst the other sweeper of the opposite flank will sit deeper - with the SW and DM sort of staying back. I'm able to keep clean sheets with ease against lesser sides, despite it showing such frailty at first sight - much like your set-up is doing.


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    I would love to try this out. Not sure I could manage to make a tactic like this to workout, even with the stuff you just said. So an upload or yours so I could check it out would be most appreciated.

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    Isn't it more of an exploit of the ME? Atm the AI simply can't handle the number of attacking options you have, and don't know how to mark what would turn into 3 men up front. Or is that just 3 striker tactics?

    Interesting tactics though. I would prefer the 3-7-0 as more men in midfield and I can see the 1-6-3 getting ripped apart by good counter attacking sides. You would think a fast counter diagonal ball to a pacey forward would find acres of space.

    I normally don't take risk and stay with my 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, but I might create one of these tactics as a tester.

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    You have found a weakness in the ME. Basically, if you do certain extremely unrealistic things to the engine, you may get extremely unrealistic results.

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    The "Spain" argument is not vaild in any way. Spain didn't play with one defender.

    The OP is simply ridiculous and shows how limited is the A.I. in adapting to even the most obvious tactical faults, like for example having one defender.

    It's not the first time this has appeared either. It has been endlessly discussed over the years in these forums but without any advancements from SI.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by tommonufc View Post
    I'm currently using this, and having good success with it. I like to think of it as a 3-7-0 as the ST and AMC swap positions very often, with the ST dropping rather deep - with end of game heat maps showing the position of the ST in line with the attacking midfielders. It's the closest I've replicated to the Spanish/Barcelona style of midfield domination and short passing, and can reguarly achieve goals from upwards of 25 passes after being played out from the keeper.

    I'd suggest your going to struggle with the formation you have, as you aren't necessarily filling the midfield with players - of which helps in terms of ball retention, making space for full backs to give width and get forward, and aids in the pressurizing of the ball when relinquished, forcing the opponents into rushed clearances. You have Inside forwards, where I'd suggest that central attacking midfielders operate in a similar position your looking for, and will move into the channels - this will therefore help you to stretch teams by packing the midfield and leaving room for the 'out ball' out to the full backs, or in this case the defensive wingers.

    It would be very interesting to see a PKM of one of the matches, as I'd think that you could maximize the efficiency of the system by moving the inside forwards in, for them then be able to venture out - so instead of wide to come inside, they would play inside to move wide - this would then allow for the wide midfielders room to work with.

    I've allowed my full backs, who are actually sweepers high mentalities with forward runs, often they will stretch the opposition by providing an overlap from deep, whilst the other sweeper of the opposite flank will sit deeper - with the SW and DM sort of staying back. I'm able to keep clean sheets with ease against lesser sides, despite it showing such frailty at first sight - much like your set-up is doing.

    The defensive wingers hug the touchline and provide the width that your wingbacks do, only they play higher up the field and provide more pressure. The team is set to play extremely narrow so the inside forwards start in the channels and then cut inside providing attacking runs for the target man to pass to. I experimented with more AMCs, but playing inside forwards instead I found lead to many more great goal scoring opportunities a match, thusly much higher scorelines, compared to when I used AMCs and they would just pass pass pass outside the box all game long.

    I experimented in the beginning with having a DLF/Trequartista who drops deep all the time like you described but too often it would just lead to millions of passes culminating in a shot outside the box. I stuck a good old fashioned physical target man up front instead and the formation just became unplayable for the AI seemingly.

    Just beat Jose Mourinho's Man City 5-0 in the Marakana. I have beaten man city 4 years in a row in the knockout rounds. This is abit ridiculous.
    Last edited by HELP ME WITH FM PLS; 30-07-2012 at 15:15.

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    The problem is your attacking the ME with a very unrealistic set of tactics that dont follow any real kinda logic, which clearly the ME cannot handle. Yes it is something we would like to see improved upon, but i always say if you input unrealistic data, dont expect realistic results. The AI will clearly never use anything like this so you will never experience this against your team, but it would work in the same way if the AI used it.

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    To be honest i've created a few tactics like the ones posted here and the results weren't that good so unless you have a pretty complex team instruction i don't see how this could be an exploit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSH View Post
    The "Spain" argument is not vaild in any way. Spain didn't play with one defender.

    The OP is simply ridiculous and shows how limited is the A.I. in adapting to even the most obvious tactical faults, like for example having one defender.

    It's not the first time this has appeared either. It has been endlessly discussed over the years in these forums but without any advancements from SI.
    Er, no but when the had possession their fullbacks pushed right up resulting in them only having 2 defenders in their own half. Plus because opposing teams (bar Italy for example) sat right back in their own box, then in those particular games Spain could afford to play with literally one bloke as a cover defender.

    My comparision was, the match engine can't compensate for so many people going forward that the AI tracks back and you can get away with the one defender. Exactly the same reason why if you put no one in the box to defend your own corners (or attack whichever) you'll have a better chance of scoring from both. The ME is rudimentary and basic in its desire to match everything man to man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isignedupfornorealreason View Post
    if you put no one in the box to defend your own corners (or attack whichever) you'll have a better chance of scoring from both.
    Is it actually true?

    You mean if you instruct all your defenders to "stay forward" you won't concede on every single corner AND your players will still stay forward as you told them to?

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    Still waiting for that PKM, please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EVH5150 View Post
    Still waiting for that PKM, please.
    Same here. Without the PKM it's a bit difficult to believe.

  16. #16

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    Players after taking 3 touches are less likely to score. This is coded in the ME, I believe? Its supposed to cut down on the amount of mazy runs ending in wonder goals, I believe, but this tactic seems to exploit that pretty ruthlessly, letting every attack consist of a player taking more than 3 touches (due to being in acres of space) and thus reducing his chances to score.

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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles-the-victorious View Post
    Players after taking 3 touches are less likely to score. This is coded in the ME, I believe? Its supposed to cut down on the amount of mazy runs ending in wonder goals, I believe, but this tactic seems to exploit that pretty ruthlessly, letting every attack consist of a player taking more than 3 touches (due to being in acres of space) and thus reducing his chances to score.
    What? Can anyone confirm this? If this is indeed hard-coded into the game, it is basically the exact opposite to what is true in the real world.

  18. #18

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    What's PKM, how do I find it and send it?


    Just beat real madrid for 4th straight european cup

    Ronaldo, Hulk, Schurlle, those players in the early rounds, all had 3-4 wide open runs from midfield they skied over the bar per game

    Opposing teams have their tactics set now where they got 3 attackers waiting at midfield line with my one defender.

    This should wind up loads of 3v1 breakaways but that happens maybe once every 5 games

    My DM is 19 tackling fast+good work rate, seems to win every 1v1, but it works when I put less strong DMs in too.
    Last edited by HELP ME WITH FM PLS; 04-08-2012 at 19:56.

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    I tried to do an awkward formation after I read this thread and I just finished my game against QPR and I'm Swansea

    I played a 2-5-3 with 1 DC 1 DM 3 MC 2 AM 2 Wingers and 1 striker

    It resulted in a 2-0 win but since my real striker was injured I couldve scored a lot more.
    My possession was around 70% whole game long and passing in midfield and attack was 90%

    My MC's are dropping deep when defending which looks like I've got 4 defenders when defending. It worked well for me.

    DM and DC were my most important men on the pitch as my DC won a lot of headers and made some important interceptions and my DM (anchorman) Was just dominating the midfield
    Last edited by iLikeTrains; 04-08-2012 at 21:45.

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    So I did a second game with the tactic and I won against a strong Wolves side at home. 2-1.
    It suprises me that this works. Just like my other post, you're almost dominating the whole time. I had like 20 shots and 10 went on target, could've score more if my striker did a better job upfront.
    Only thing is that you can concede from very long passing counters but if you have a fast DM and DC it won't be such a problem. And when I was up I took one of my MC's of for a DC so I had more balance in the defence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HELP ME WITH FM PLS View Post
    What's PKM, how do I find it and send it?


    Just beat real madrid for 4th straight european cup

    Ronaldo, Hulk, Schurlle, those players in the early rounds, all had 3-4 wide open runs from midfield they skied over the bar per game

    Opposing teams have their tactics set now where they got 3 attackers waiting at midfield line with my one defender.

    This should wind up loads of 3v1 breakaways but that happens maybe once every 5 games

    My DM is 19 tackling fast+good work rate, seems to win every 1v1, but it works when I put less strong DMs in too.
    Save a PKM; Finish a game > Information screen > Match controls > Save game.
    Find the PKM; The save game file will be saved onto your desktop, 'My Documents, Sports Interactive, matches'
    Upload PKM; Go to a file sharing site, such a mediafire.com, following on site instructions, it's all pretty simple, then upload the file onto site and link on here.

    Should take no more than 2/3mins in total.

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    http://www.mediafire.com/?5kcc6sabxvd0n68
    ok this is from a game with alot of new guys I just bought and some 2nd and 3rd stringers.

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    Threads like this make me cry and put the game away
    One defender...holy hell.

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    Tbh the guy is right! I the exact formation tommonufc posted above. I beat bolton with chelsea 3-0 and dominated the game, beat congo with ghana 6-2 and drew with brazil 1-1 with big named players misssing lol. Also when i use this formation it seems like average goalkeepers turn into amazing ones and save nearly anything that comes at them and the 1 person in defence usually has a match rating above 7.0

    Edit: African cup of nations quarter final and just beat a good tunisia side who are favourites to win 3-0 with a 2-6-1 formation dont think the ME handles unusual tactics well
    Last edited by tjblackstar; 05-08-2012 at 14:02.

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    Can the OP post a screen of his tactic please. It sounds interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambo95 View Post
    Can the OP post a screen of his tactic please. It sounds interesting
    how do I do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles-the-victorious View Post
    Players after taking 3 touches are less likely to score. This is coded in the ME, I believe? Its supposed to cut down on the amount of mazy runs ending in wonder goals, I believe, but this tactic seems to exploit that pretty ruthlessly, letting every attack consist of a player taking more than 3 touches (due to being in acres of space) and thus reducing his chances to score.
    I'd like this clarified by someone from SI.


    Quote Originally Posted by siambluebird View Post
    Threads like this make me cry and put the game away
    One defender...holy hell.
    Ditto.

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    Just got round to watching the game, would have referred to see a game against notable quality opposition, pheraphs you could sort out a link for one of your CL wins and post it up?

    A couple of chances should have really been put away by the opposition, and I can tell anyone that is claiming fix on the ME making the opposition miss these on purpose that they don't - I've been put to the sword on many occasions during the development of my tactic that you can quite easily ship 4/5 goals in a game if you allow such space. Saying that, I'd declare that opposition would have been better than what was faced in the game posted.

    Not sure what to really say tbh, it's an interesting set-up and is obviously working for you - I notice that you make good use of your center back heading balls clear inside your box, something that seems to nullify the opposition treat, much like I have set-up.

    Like I say, would prefer to see a game against quality opposition, for example your CL win over Real Madrid you stated - also interesting to think how it would fair in a top division week in week out where near enough every team has at least one player that could capitalise on any attacking space found.

    Have been meaning to post up a match with my system used, one above - if any ones interested I could post it in here; of course that's if the OP doesn't mind, as I don't wish to hi-jack the thread

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    post away

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    Would be quite interested to see your save game so we can investigate the tactic and look into why it's so successful. If you could upload your save game to the FTP I can pass it onto the coding team. FTP details are here - http://community.sigames.com/showthr...P-Instructions

    If you do upload it please let me know via PM so I can begin to investigate it. Many thanks

  31. #31

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    Ok I'll try to do that!

    The other teams often get loads of breakaways from midfield, they just sky it over the bar or get chased down and stopped 99.9% of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommonufc View Post
    Just got round to watching the game, would have referred to see a game against notable quality opposition, pheraphs you could sort out a link for one of your CL wins and post it up?

    A couple of chances should have really been put away by the opposition, and I can tell anyone that is claiming fix on the ME making the opposition miss these on purpose that they don't - I've been put to the sword on many occasions during the development of my tactic that you can quite easily ship 4/5 goals in a game if you allow such space. Saying that, I'd declare that opposition would have been better than what was faced in the game posted.

    Not sure what to really say tbh, it's an interesting set-up and is obviously working for you - I notice that you make good use of your center back heading balls clear inside your box, something that seems to nullify the opposition treat, much like I have set-up.
    My most ridiculous victory was 6-1 away at city, next time that crap happens I'll post up the game. Serbian league still isn't amazing, but because I've been doing so well in the CL other teams have gotten more money from CL spots and are bringing in 4.5 star quality regens for the past two years.
    Last edited by HELP ME WITH FM PLS; 06-08-2012 at 23:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramie View Post
    post away
    Here's the link for the pkm here; http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8428/7...f59d8dd6_c.jpg and this is the match; http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8428/7...f59d8dd6_c.jpg

    Your notice between the two that this is a lot more conservative with possession, but is similar I feel in the offensive numbers it uses at times.

    Edit; I must say the forth scored by Rooney for his hattrick is one of my favorite goals in recent memory scored on FM! Just lovely passing from a short set-piece dissecting the Stoke rigid lines
    Last edited by tommonufc; 07-08-2012 at 02:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles-the-victorious View Post
    Players after taking 3 touches are less likely to score. This is coded in the ME, I believe? Its supposed to cut down on the amount of mazy runs ending in wonder goals, I believe, but this tactic seems to exploit that pretty ruthlessly, letting every attack consist of a player taking more than 3 touches (due to being in acres of space) and thus reducing his chances to score.
    What? Can anyone confirm this? If this is indeed hard-coded into the game, it is basically the exact opposite to what is true in the real world.
    it's not coded in the ME. It is a real life fact. The chance of conversion falls significantly if you aren't shooting on your first or second touch, mainly because you are going to get closed down. I am not sure quite how true this is in relation to one on ones, but I would still assume that the more touches the player has, the better chance the keeper has of getting in a good position to block the shot. You've also got the increased opportunity of a mistake in the control of each touch.

    As for the one defender: as much as possible, players try to behave as if they would in real life. Consequently, you are more likely to get players quickly tracking back if you only have one cover player than you would if you had lots of cover. Given the OP has a world class side, you'd expect the quality of this cover to be excellent. As a poster mentioned:

    My MC's are dropping deep when defending which looks like I've got 4 defenders when defending. It worked well for me.
    This is an example of the problems of trying to get ME players to behave as if they would in real life. In reality, in such situations, you'd expect the players to behave as they are in the ME (i.e. trying to cover). However, people equally expect the positions in the tactical module to be absolutes rather than semi-notational, concluding that such a system shouldn't be defensively sound. That would only necessarily be the case IF the remaining players were not acting relatively naturally and were completely tied to their absolute position. A world class team getting destroyed day in, day out when using such a system would be evidence of a very bad ME.

    This type of behaviour extends throughout player decisions in the ME. For example, a world class player with no cover behind is more likely to look for a non-risky pass than one with a lot of cover behind. As the midfield is packed, then he'll have a lot of options and you should get high possession percentages. You'd expect a low level team in the same position to make bad decisions, constantly lose the ball and thus get ripped apart on the counter.

    The only conclusions we can make about the realism of the system must be based on the dynamic positions the players take up during the match. If, as some have suggested, they will regularly move into a shape similar to Spain's Euro winning one, then there's not much of a problem. We know world class teams using such a shape are successful. If they don't, then we still don't know much. If the regular shapes are unseen in real world football, then we have nothing to compare it to and thus have no way of determining how successful such patterns would be in reality. The only thing we would know is, if a world class team was losing heavily week in, week out with such a system, that there is a serious weakness in the defensive and pass decision logic in the ME. If a very average team was massively overachieving with such a system, then we could conclude there was a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    The chance of conversion falls significantly if you aren't shooting on your first or second touch, mainly because you are going to get closed down.
    To simulate this surely you need to code for the effect of getting closed down, not just count the touches. I would have thought this is easy, just base it on proximity of nearby defenders.

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    I am not sure quite how true this is in relation to one on ones, but I would still assume that the more touches the player has, the better chance the keeper has of getting in a good position to block the shot.
    Again, you seem to be coding the wrong thing. Make it harder to score if the keeper is in a good position, which is more to do with time taken than the number of touches. In fact, a player who takes many light touches can get a better position relative to the keeper than a player taking two heavy touches. If there really is a three touch limit before penalties kick in then I can see it being an advantage at times to have poor first touch and dribbling in situations where these skills would be vital IRL.

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    You've also got the increased opportunity of a mistake in the control of each touch.
    Should be taken care of by a test on skills such as first touch, dribbling, technique, with the striker being forced out wide by a poor touch.

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    As for the one defender: as much as possible, players try to behave as if they would in real life. Consequently, you are more likely to get players quickly tracking back if you only have one cover player than you would if you had lots of cover.
    What I feel the game fails to simulate is how tired players get if they have to do things like this constantly. Having midfielders tracking back to cover the defence whenever there is a break should lead to them being caught out of position often and being shattered by the end of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromley Raven View Post
    To simulate this surely you need to code for the effect of getting closed down, not just count the touches. I would have thought this is easy, just base it on proximity of nearby defenders.

    Again, you seem to be coding the wrong thing. Make it harder to score if the keeper is in a good position, which is more to do with time taken than the number of touches. In fact, a player who takes many light touches can get a better position relative to the keeper than a player taking two heavy touches. If there really is a three touch limit before penalties kick in then I can see it being an advantage at times to have poor first touch and dribbling in situations where these skills would be vital IRL.

    Should be taken care of by a test on skills such as first touch, dribbling, technique, with the striker being forced out wide by a poor touch.
    Pretty much sums up how it does work. And, as I thought I made clear, there is no three touch penalty. A player in the FM ME is less likely to score after two touches for exactly the same reasons a player in real life is less likely to score after two touches. He's closed down, rushed, the keeper's moved into a good position etc. However, if he's made three or four perfect touches that have outwitted defensive movement, he might well have an open goal.


    What I feel the game fails to simulate is how tired players get if they have to do things like this constantly. Having midfielders tracking back to cover the defence whenever there is a break should lead to them being caught out of position often and being shattered by the end of the game.
    I agree. However, with 70% possession due to the packed midfield and quality of the team, this is a relatively moot point.
    Last edited by wwfan; 07-08-2012 at 08:03.

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    Well, in my eyes at times Barca do play like 1-6-3 when trying to break teams that park the moon infront of their goal.

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    Could someone upload a tactic that applies to this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tommonufc View Post
    Here's the link for the pkm here; http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8428/7...f59d8dd6_c.jpg and this is the match; http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8428/7...f59d8dd6_c.jpg

    Your notice between the two that this is a lot more conservative with possession, but is similar I feel in the offensive numbers it uses at times.

    Edit; I must say the forth scored by Rooney for his hattrick is one of my favorite goals in recent memory scored on FM! Just lovely passing from a short set-piece dissecting the Stoke rigid lines
    Both links are to the jpg. No pkm here.

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    14th November 2008
    Location
    Sarajevo
    Posts
    8,111

    Default

    The OP clearly needs no help with FM.
    www.fmbosnia.com - The game starts here

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