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Thread: IGN member speak the truth about Football manager

  1. #1
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    Default IGN member speak the truth about Football manager

    review on football manager from a member on IGN

    "To be fair, the game isn't really all that good and SI are lucky that
    they have no competition to speak of. It's easy to slap a high rating on
    something when it's the best in its field by default. Football Manager
    is generally only fun for casual football fans, particularly among kids.
    For anyone who wants a challenging simulation, FM will never be able to
    provide that. Every single user overachieves with relative ease and
    there's no sense of accomplishment when you rack up the accolades.
    Everyone has taken small teams up the divisions and make them the best
    in the world. Everyone has won doubles/trebles/quadruples galore. It
    gets boring once you've done it so many times.

    Why is the game so easy? Simply put, the AI is awful. You don't even
    need to exploit as it will self destruct for you. With each season that
    passes, AI teams get weaker and the evidence of an extremely random
    squad management module become apparent. An AI team may not even have a
    third centreback to put on the bench, yet it will go ahead and spend its
    budget on striker #7 that probably won't even get a game until their
    contract expires, perhaps to be picked up by yourself on a free
    transfer, or maybe another AI team after several years.

    It's not just squad management. The AI can be profoundly stupid in
    matches, too. You're playing a narrow diamond? Sit back and be amused as
    the AI's 4-4-2 team attempts to construct moves through the middle.
    You're playing a 3-5-2 against a 4-5-1? No problem, the AI will very
    rarely realise that it has unmarked wingbacks to attack you with.
    Tactics are a mockery of real-world football, too. You don't see
    oldschool 4-3-3s with one striker flanked by two second strikers in real
    life anymore, but it is extremely effective on FM. Play 3 uptop and you
    can dominate.

    There are also issues with a general lack of realism. It's possible for
    strikers to score 50/60/70 goals a season. Some people even manage to
    get 100 goals out of a striker somehow. I wish this was an exaggeration,
    but it isn't. Give a striker maximum pace and 1 for everything else -
    he will still get 20-30 goals a season.

    Still, it has some redeeming qualities and I do still play the game
    occasionally. I just wish another football management simulation would
    come along and put it to shame one day."

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    Harsh. Sure it's not perfect, but it's by no means a bad game.

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    Its funny, I play football manager a lot, and really enjoy it, and have never really thought about it like this - but he is right on the money... There really are some glaring holes.

    Definitely right about the quick striker comment aswell.....

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    Oh right so because 1 IGN member comes out with this we all should sit up and listen ?? some points he make's are valid there's no denying the A.I needs to be better SI know this, but to say the game is't good is really a joke really, then there's the fact about competition hmm were do we start Fifa Manger Tries but fails miserably and lets not go down the recent Championship manager games, the competition as been there but been no way near good enough which is't SI fault and probably tells you how hard it is to make a game as complex as FM

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    While some of his comments have some substance, his overall view is very harsh as far as I am concerned.

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    On another note, if it was near enough impossible to get promoted and happened very rarely - ok that does reflect real life - then people would start to moan that the game is too difficult. Hard one for SI.........

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    Every single user overachieves with relative ease and
    there's no sense of accomplishment when you rack up the accolades.
    compared to second down thread in the GD forum today....

    every year i buy the game and get excited about playing it. but every year it results in the same story. no matter what i do, the ai always seems to do a better job. i just started a new save and in the first 5 games i lost all of them. your thinking nothin wrong with that. but when i take over spurs and lose against west brom, wolves, wigan, fulham and also everton. out of them i scored 3 and let in 15. i read that people find this easy, but i just cant seem to find out how. i always seem to struggle and just find it boring
    So IGN member does not speak the truth, he/she speaks from his/her own perspective and puts their opinion across as the way everyone thinks.

    All that is is a sensationalised review from someone who is annoyed or bored with the game, nothing more.

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    The AI is most definitely weaker than a human mind, and needs a lot of improvement.
    However, when a company with the resources of EA can't even get close to challenging FM, let alone challenging a human, it says a lot about how difficult it is to get right, and even more about the chances of a competitor ever being good enough to challenge.

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    i allways find it funny when people say the game is way too easy when there is so many people saying exactly the opposite, to me the game is kinda balanced (not extremely easy not extremely hard) at least short term, long term gets easier and is the only point i agree in that review. what is really funny to me is when guys such as that IGN user see the game is easy for them yet do nothing to make it more challenging... oh i score a lot from corner cheat...change nothing, pacey strikers are overpowered....first thing he looks on a striker is pace...and i could even go as far as saying that guy uses a downloaded classic tatic that exploits the ME.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XinaCrisp View Post
    i allways find it funny when people say the game is way too easy when there is so many people saying exactly the opposite, to me the game is kinda balanced (not extremely easy not extremely hard) at least short term, long term gets easier and is the only point i agree in that review. what is really funny to me is when guys such as that IGN user see the game is easy for them yet do nothing to make it more challenging... oh i score a lot from corner cheat...change nothing, pacey strikers are overpowered....first thing he looks on a striker is pace...and i could even go as far as saying that guy uses a downloaded classic tatic that exploits the ME.
    It's been said a million times. The user shouldn't go out their way to make the game more challenging for them or restrict their tactics or squad building. It totally kills all suspense of belief which is after all very key for a simulation such as FM.

    I like FM, but at the same time I am very disappointed that they are not focusing on developing the right areas and frankly don't see this changing either. The review definitely has a lot of merit and I completely agree with every point he makes, but despite all those qualities the game is still enjoyable.

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    It starts difficult, but if you stick at it it just gets easier and easier.

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    Nothing new here. The whole forum know that the AI and transfer system need work, lets hope this happens in the next couple of releases. If it doesn't happen then I would seriously consider not buying the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wally13 View Post
    Oh right so because 1 IGN member comes out with this we all should sit up and listen ?? some points he make's are valid there's no denying the A.I needs to be better SI know this, but to say the game is't good is really a joke really, then there's the fact about competition hmm were do we start Fifa Manger Tries but fails miserably and lets not go down the recent Championship manager games, the competition as been there but been no way near good enough which is't SI fault and probably tells you how hard it is to make a game as complex as FM
    Lolz... "it's not SI's fault"... I bet you take in an apple for teacher too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salad Daze View Post
    Lolz... "it's not SI's fault"... I bet you take in an apple for teacher too?
    Was you just taking out bits of my comment at random or did you actually read ?? were i said its not "SI fault" was about other football manager sims not been as good as there's , or are you actually saying that is SI fault ?

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    Some valid points in the review. I have always loved the game but the ME needs major work as does the transfer system. My biggest gripe is that real life basics don't work. You need a workaround in a 4-2-3-1 to get your wingers to track back, a flat 4-4-2 is pointless because CM's don't defend properly. Far too many glaring errors which makes people resort to formations that would never in a million years be used IRL.

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    The game has flaws. Which game doesn't? This guys an idiot though. He's massively unfair and inaccurate with most of his comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sussex Hammer View Post
    Some valid points in the review. I have always loved the game but the ME needs major work as does the transfer system. My biggest gripe is that real life basics don't work. You need a workaround in a 4-2-3-1 to get your wingers to track back, a flat 4-4-2 is pointless because CM's don't defend properly. Far too many glaring errors which makes people resort to formations that would never in a million years be used IRL.
    Nonsense. I play flat 4-4-2 and defend just fine. CM's only don't defend properly when there is only 2 with no DM and the wide men pushed forward into AML/AMR.

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    AI squad management is poor, yes. Fast strikers do have too much effect, yes. But otherwise it's a very poor review. Every single user finds the game easy? He obviously doesn't come to these forums.

    Does having little competition mean that SI are lucky or perhaps it's because their game is too good so nobody else can even get close to them? If it was easy to produce a realistic management sim then why aren't there more of them around?

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    The game is realistic and not too easy, if played realistically. I simply do not believe that many, if any, players can get a striker to score 100 goals in a season without doing something unrealistic to deliberately alter would could happen in reality.

    Any one of these gives a significant advantage over reality, and makes the game much easier:

    • Re-starting after the very first time you set up the game – if you do this you already have knowledge of players to buy/sell and the match engine which you shouldn’t have in advance. This is true whatever level you load, and unless you are on the first and only save you created then you have made the game easier.
    • Using the editor – even if you don’t improve anything, you are getting an insight into the actual details of players/clubs that you shouldn’t have.
    • Reading the forums – this gives way too much advice and makes the game much easier, an advantage the AI doesn’t have. Without these forums for good players and especially tactics, the game is massively harder.
    • Re-loading – an obvious one but many people do it and then say the game is too easy.
    • Starting as anything other than Sunday league footballer makes the game much easier.
    • To an extent, not starting at the lowest level of club, but this is more relative and situational depending on your aspirations.


    If you just start a new game, never start another and don’t get advice that the AI can’t get from the forums, along with the more obvious cheating, then there is no way the game is too easy or you can get 100 goals a season from one player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sussex Hammer View Post
    Some valid points in the review. I have always loved the game but the ME needs major work as does the transfer system. My biggest gripe is that real life basics don't work.
    Yes they do, if they don't for you then you are doing it wrong.


    You need a workaround in a 4-2-3-1 to get your wingers to track back
    This is a classic example of doing it wrong. If you want your players to mirror the real life 451/433 hybrid formations within FM you should be setting them up as a 451 with appropriate instructions and not 4231.

    When setting formations in FM you should be viewing them from their defensive shape and not the offensive shape, this is where many FM users go wrong.


    a flat 4-4-2 is pointless because CM's don't defend properly. Far too many glaring errors which makes people resort to formations that would never in a million years be used IRL.
    I've never had any problems.

    A weakness of the flat 442 shape is the gap between defence & midfield that can be exploited by players looking for space in the hole or strikers dropping off the front. This is exactly the sort of challenge that teams IRL face when playing this shape. You need to find a way to adapt to the challenge by either issuing different orders or changing your shape slightly to counter the threat.

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    @hluraven

    I've done that without using any forum knowledge (only my own) and only the tools provided within the game itself*
    ie. I don't sign players based on previous knowledge. Most of my time playing is spent when all the real players have long retired.
    I don't use the editor. I don't need to read the forums. I don't reload.

    I don't start at the lowest level of club because that bores the hell out of me, I jump straight in the deep end with Newcastle.

    *I did alter my striker's Footedness from "Right" to "Right Only" for a test that's documented on these forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    It's been said a million times. The user shouldn't go out their way to make the game more challenging for them or restrict their tactics or squad building. It totally kills all suspense of belief which is after all very key for a simulation such as FM.
    Yet many users go out of their way to make the game easier by finding ways to exploit the ME or playing in a manner that is not realistic and then come onto the forums and complain how easy it is

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    Harsh but understandable frustration in the review. It would surprise me if most long-term fans of FM don't feel similarly to some degree or another. But it is difficult to accept a review (or snippet thereof?) like that without suggesting that such frustration is as much a characteristic of being a die-hard and long-term fan as it is with the quality of the product. The longer you play FM the more likely it is that some aspects of the gameplay are going to bore you eventually, if not outright **** you off. However, wouldn't this be true of nearly any complex process you become so familiar with?

    That isn't to suggest that there are not problems with the very things the reviewer points out, but that these problems tend to emerge for the player as they pass 100-500 hours of gameplay (just a wild estimate). We'd all love it if this were not the case I imagine, but to suggest (through omission) that these issues are out-of-the-box gamebreakers is paying to much credence to one's frustration and not enough to the likely fact that 1000s of hours of fun have been had in spite of these same issues being there the whole time.

    I think it is valuable to keep bringing these balance and design issues up year after year. One can only imagine how wonderful the game would be should these be satisfactorily addressed. While I don't think it's everyone's responsibility to balance their frustration with the long view in every post, if that was a full review then I think it was an unbalanced one.

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    "Every single user overachieves with relative ease and
    there's no sense of accomplishment when you rack up the accolades."

    That alone proves he's talking bull, obviously hasn't read these forums too much

    There's no game I can think of where the AI intuitively competes with human players, in spite of the fact you can get a degree in AI programming the fact is it's never got much better than basic and most games resort to rubber banding to make it compete.
    FM doesn't do that at least but anything they can do to improve the AI would be welcome as it does frustrate just about all of us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    "Every single user overachieves with relative ease and
    there's no sense of accomplishment when you rack up the accolades."

    That alone proves he's talking bull, obviously hasn't read these forums too much

    Or watched you play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    Or watched you play.
    You speak the truth, 14 seasons in Div2 in Argentina I do still have a job though

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenco View Post
    Does having little competition mean that SI are lucky or perhaps it's because their game is too good so nobody else can even get close to them? If it was easy to produce a realistic management sim then why aren't there more of them around?
    I have to disagree with the reasoning here. I can think of at least 3 decent reasons why there are not stronger competitors for Football Manager that have nothing to do with whether or not it is "easy to produce a realistic management sim". Just because there isn't strong competition doesn't mean that any reason we pull out of a hat is the reason.

    For example, there may be some exclusivity in the rights obtained for using certain leagues or names or trademarks, etc.. and not having these rights would undermine the sales of any potential new game.

    Another example would be the huge network of researchers that assemble data for SI to use to create their database and update it, year after year. This is a massive bootstrapping problem for any new enterprise. How do you convice people to go out and support a product with their own hard work that doesn't exist yet?

    A third reason could be that there are other programmatic hurdles to creating such a simulation that have nothing to do with the issues raised in the review that we have no clue about. It is a pretty big assumption to make to suggest that the issues we choose are the ones that preclude someone else from making a better product that happens to address these issues. How can one possibly know that? We aren't talking about making a better pizza here. You know, one with anchovies AND pineapple. Its a massively complex programming and human enterprise. Just because you can't find such a pizza doesn't mean that it is the toppings that are so difficult to assemble. I suggest that that is far too much induction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    The AI is most definitely weaker than a human mind, and needs a lot of improvement.
    However, when a company with the resources of EA can't even get close to challenging FM, let alone challenging a human, it says a lot about how difficult it is to get right, and even more about the chances of a competitor ever being good enough to challenge.
    Bang on the money!! The problem is that we expect that what is a relatively small computer program in the grand scheme of things to be able to simulate a footballing world which is made up of hundreds of thousands of individual humans. Of course it's going to have flaws!! If someone's prepared to come up with an annual £100m budget and bring in the world's top AI experts then I'm all ears! Otherwise I'll settle for the FM games.

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    But then all of those points come under the bracket of it not being easy to make a football managment sim. Exclusivity is a hurdle to overcome, SI manage it themselves. Building a network has been part of SI's main successes, in order to do this you have to build trust with your fansbase, its part of building a great franchise. Champ manager didnt manage to do it, EA sports have not managed to do it.

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    he is kinda right though, once you get to a dominating position, nothing can challange that, and the AI building is awful and takes alot of fun out of the game when you actually keep track what they are doing, but i dont think most people pay much attention after 10-15 years cauz all the "real" guys are gone anyway

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    Although the reviewer brought up some valid criticisms they are exaggerated to a ridiculous degree, and it is very one-sided. It is a poor review, I don't know why we are all discussing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    But then all of those points come under the bracket of it not being easy to make a football managment sim. Exclusivity is a hurdle to overcome, SI manage it themselves. Building a network has been part of SI's main successes, in order to do this you have to build trust with your fansbase, its part of building a great franchise. Champ manager didnt manage to do it, EA sports have not managed to do it.
    I'd point out here that Miles started as a researcher (unpaid too ) that shows the kind of commitment needed to grow a game like this from humble beginnings and develop it over years.

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    The three most useful reviews on Amazon UK describe it in a similar way.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Football-Man.../dp/B005HGG006

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    The AI is most definitely weaker than a human mind, and needs a lot of improvement.
    However, when a company with the resources of EA can't even get close to challenging FM, let alone challenging a human, it says a lot about how difficult it is to get right, and even more about the chances of a competitor ever being good enough to challenge.
    if by EA you mean Fifa Manager, its actually done by a very small studio called Bright Future in germany every year, their manpower is less than SI, their database editor are fans around the world, its been this way for years now, i know it because i edited the polish database couple years ago.. so just because it has the "EA" logo on it, doesnt mean their got more ressources than SI, i guess thats what iam trying to say

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    I'd point out here that Miles started as a researcher (unpaid too ) that shows the kind of commitment needed to grow a game like this from humble beginnings and develop it over years.
    You can bet that paul c and his brother had no exclusive rights to anything when they started. Most companies now would hae a huge advantage over what they started with purely because of the easniess of gathering information thanks to the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by haunted1234 View Post
    if by EA you mean Fifa Manager, its actually done by a very small studio called Bright Future in germany every year, their manpower is less than SI, their database editor are fans around the world, its been this way for years now, i know it because i edited the polish database couple years ago.. so just because it has the "EA" logo on it, doesnt mean their got more ressources than SI, i guess thats what iam trying to say
    It become that way because they've been unable to compete. At the start they threw loads of money in an attempt to establish themselves.

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    The review is terrible, im not breaking it down because its pointless.

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    Spertz, did you actually read all of that review or just the start of it? It gets pretty daft a couple of paragraphs in.

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    Most the stuff in that review as been talked about to death anyway lets be right, as i said in early post there are valid points i 100% agree about the A.I Needing to be better,but all these things have been brought up many many of times and the thread will probably end up going same way as the others
    Last edited by wally13; 18-07-2012 at 15:29.

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    There are legitimate criticisms of Football Manager to be made, and the IGN guy has a couple of really good points - although I would argue that his expectations are unreasonable given the limitations of technology and realistic algorithims, and I think most people are actually pretty damn happy to have a football simulation that feels as real as FM does, AI squad building issues and all.

    But that Amazon review's a right laugh. AI cheating by scripting in mistakes for the human player? Laughable claim, there's no evidence for it and it would be harder for SI to program that in, if they even had any motivation to - which they don't.

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    Tbf the op article is boring to read and is using writing techniques like social proof,looking for guidance from others as to what to do and what to accept. Many would accept what it says so lets say it. Appalling and you see it in most of acticles

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    Out of curiosity has anyone ever tried giving a striker maximum pace and 1 for everything else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marty78 View Post
    Nonsense. I play flat 4-4-2 and defend just fine. CM's only don't defend properly when there is only 2 with no DM and the wide men pushed forward into AML/AMR.
    If there is two and a DM that's not a flat 4-4-2!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar2010 View Post
    Yes they do, if they don't for you then you are doing it wrong.




    This is a classic example of doing it wrong. If you want your players to mirror the real life 451/433 hybrid formations within FM you should be setting them up as a 451 with appropriate instructions and not 4231.

    When setting formations in FM you should be viewing them from their defensive shape and not the offensive shape, this is where many FM users go wrong.




    I've never had any problems.

    A weakness of the flat 442 shape is the gap between defence & midfield that can be exploited by players looking for space in the hole or strikers dropping off the front. This is exactly the sort of challenge that teams IRL face when playing this shape. You need to find a way to adapt to the challenge by either issuing different orders or changing your shape slightly to counter the threat.
    There is a thread somewhere here that if I am correct even Cleon states that there is an ME issue with CM defending and it's better to play with DM's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AcidBurn View Post
    Out of curiosity has anyone ever tried giving a striker maximum pace and 1 for everything else?
    Yes. It worked brilliantly around FM2005-2007 iirc, but then it became less and less useful with each release.

    You'd still be able to perform better than you should be able to, but not in the way he states.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sussex Hammer View Post
    There is a thread somewhere here that if I am correct even Cleon states that there is an ME issue with CM defending and it's better to play with DM's.
    That was specifically referring to 2 MCs in a 4-2-3-1, where they have no protection behind (no DM) or to the sides (no MR/ML). A flat 4-4-2 is different because the MR/ML mean they are less isolated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sussex Hammer View Post
    If there is two and a DM that's not a flat 4-4-2!!!
    I clearly state NO DM

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenco View Post
    That was specifically referring to 2 MCs in a 4-2-3-1, where they have no protection behind (no DM) or to the sides (no MR/ML). A flat 4-4-2 is different because the MR/ML mean they are less isolated.
    Kenco's post explains what I mean. 2 CM's with NO DM and advanced wide men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenco View Post
    That was specifically referring to 2 MCs in a 4-2-3-1, where they have no protection behind (no DM) or to the sides (no MR/ML). A flat 4-4-2 is different because the MR/ML mean they are less isolated.
    I have a 4-2-3-1 and my midfield duo defend just fine. It might help that I always play at least one as a Ball winner on defend though and he's sick for Marking, Tackling and Stamina so he's bounding left/right/centre and nothing gets through him.

    Then again, if they don't have the ball who cares about midfield defence? >_>

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    I do feel it gets easier as you go through the seasons. Once you reach the top, you can pretty much sustain it.

    AI squads at times are laughable, I've seen highly rated players join teams and then barely play as they don't fit in with the formation.

    However. I do enjoy the game, I can get quite into the game but I do wish it was harder to dominate. I also feel its easier in the top leagues to keep hold of your stars, maintain a healthy bank balance. I usually end up with so much money but nothing to do with it as I can keep my players without any fuss.

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    The ai needs to be improved but the game is fun and enjoyable and his examples were exagerations

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    Problem with reviews like those posted above, is they are hard to take serious unless their a balanced argument of positives and negatives. Those 'reviews' are no more than users posting their grievances with the games.

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    I agree with the review but i find that with most games i soon find a way to adapt and beat it every time. With one of my FM12 games i've resorted to trying my best to make things harder for me but when i have to try and beat myself to make the game more challenging then you can safely say it's time for something to change. Once you hit a certain point then you can't really do anything wrong... However the whole striker thing i don't agree with. Messi and Ronaldo (both in the 50's to 60's) say it all really but while were on that subject, they never really reach the same heights in terms of goals per season in the game as they do in real life which is annoying, i've never managed either of them but it seems the only way i'll ever see either of them reach to sort of tally they get in real life is if i was their manager.

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    The biggest problem is that any criticism seems to be ignored by SI like it's some sort of whiny minority.

    I, and many others, have said this a million times; if SI one year focused all their energy on cleaning up the legacy code, fixing bugs, fixing flaws and balancing the AI without adding any new fluff features, I'm 100% convinced the game would sell more than just a traditional yearly iteration, regardless of what marketing experts at SEGA says.

    The review at the top has at least one good point: there is no competition to push SI to create a superior product, because there is nothing to be superior against. Someone brought up FIFA Manager, but I wouldn't even put that game in the same category as FM. SI only competes against itself and the previous release, and as long as a new release has more features it automatically becomes superior.

    For every new version released it makes less sense to keep building and adding things on top of legacy code stretching many years into the past. I wish there was courage from SI and trust from SEGA to completely re-write FM from scratch and aim to create a product so flawless that even IF there was competition it would take them years to catch up.

    The argument against would be that SI couldn't afford skipping a year, but releasing a database update in September for £10 could cover a lot of costs, and when the re-written product is done, it would sell more than the old one anyways.

    I do enjoy playing FM, but it is frustrating when the game still (after 15 years) has AI issues. I would trade almost every new feature in the last five years for a good AI that can keep me entertained and challenged in a 30 year career save.

    What is the reason for not improving the AI? Do SI think the AI is good as it is? Are they not capable of improving it? Is there not enough money to budget improving the AI?

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    What is funny with FM is that it seems to be in a reverse parallel universe with real life management. 20 years ago IRL Managers did everything from buy players to sort out contracts to taking the training. These days they have other people running the training, agents and advisors sorting out contracts and I would be surprised if even Fergie has the same responsibility he used to. Whereas in FM world back at the start you bought players, picked a team and off you went, now it's all down to the Manager from allocating staff in training, sorting out contracts yourself and it's gone haywire with all the gimmicks. Personally I agree with the above, I would happily take the game of 4 or 5 years ago but with a top class ME and AI.

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    I think the game is fine the way it is. Given the amount of work that goes into making the product, perhaps it is unrealistic to want all of the sun, moon, stars and planets.

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    There are issues but this is the best game out there by miles(pardon the pun)

    a few things I consider addressing do not get a mention by OP ....so things bug some users more than others

    perhaps there should be an easy/moderate/hard option

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantralux View Post
    I'm 100% convinced the game would sell more than just a traditional yearly iteration, regardless of what marketing experts at SEGA says.
    Based on what?

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    The review is harsh but sometimes it's better to get an in-your-face opinion, albeit brash and not entirely fair, than keeping on getting verbal fellatio from adoring fans who are so loyal to the franchise they'd gladly pay for anything with the X name/logo on it.


    I know SI don't have trillions to spend on the development of the game, but let's be fair here... SEGA aren't a fourth rate developer either... The lacking part here is a mix of will and motivation.

    If you hear "oh the product is great" and "best game ever" every single time, you're bound to get lazy especially when there's no competition to keep you on your toes. FIFA Football needed PES to kick their predictable ass for almost a full decade before they were able to come back with a comparable product... But FIFA had been nothing short of "meh" from 99 til the late 00s.

    FM is getting like the Simpsons' trashcan. They keep on adding stuff on the top of a structure in deperate need of a fresh start. There's just so much they can do to balance things because the transfers and squad building parts are either too outdated or based on less than great dynamics.
    That creates the "overmedication" effect we've seen over the years with AI being too aggressive on the market, then in the following edition it's too conservative. Morale went from constant happiness to schizophrenia etc.


    As said by another guy above, they can't tweak/patch the same code forever. At one point they're going to have to rewrite it from scratch, possibly to solve some longterm issues and to go for a more modern gameworld.

    The reputation-based system has run its course, for a couple of years already, and the more features they add the more that system shows its age.

    In other genres any game still using the basic code of 10-15 years ago would get slaughtered by reviewers and laughed at by customers... Yet FM gets positive reviews and great sales every single year.

    Is it because it's really "good as it is" or is it because it's basically a walkover?


    P.S. and we all agree FM is still enjoyable (otherwise we wouldn't be here), DESPITE all its unresolved issues. But it's equally fair to say it could and should be so much better.
    Nobody expects a 100% realistic simulation, because it'd be impossible and it'd require insane processing power.

    All we ask is a competent AI which can give the human player a run for his/her money... I want my rise to European glory to be an actual feat, not just something I know I can do in 5 or 10 years depending on where I start and how good I am.
    As things are now all you need to do is waiting for AI clubs to sabotage themselves...

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Based on what?
    That's my guess:

    * SEGA could rebrand FM09, sell it as FM2013 and plenty of fans (fanboys, FM-addicts etc) would still buy it and say it's great
    * There's still no competition so it's not as if the football management game junkies could switch allegiance during the time there's no new FM
    * Imagine the anticipation for the FINALLY NEW Football Manager 201x

    The £10 data update would keep the fans playing the existing version while they wait for the revolutionary new game.
    The new game would probably attract disgruntled long-time fans, former fans and potentially new fans who'd be curious to see how this new game will be.


    The current yearly release plays it safer than safe, but how long can that last? The guys at EA Sports thought they were going to sell the same boring FIFA Football iteration every year, and suddenly they found themselves trailing PES from so far behind because they had been coasting for many years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBKalle View Post
    That's my guess:

    * SEGA could rebrand FM09, sell it as FM2013 and plenty of fans (fanboys, FM-addicts etc) would still buy it and say it's great
    * There's still no competition so it's not as if the football management game junkies could switch allegiance during the time there's no new FM
    * Imagine the anticipation for the FINALLY NEW Football Manager 201x

    The £10 data update would keep the fans playing the existing version while they wait for the revolutionary new game.
    The new game would probably attract disgruntled long-time fans, former fans and potentially new fans who'd be curious to see how this new game will be.


    The current yearly release plays it safer than safe, but how long can that last? The guys at EA Sports thought they were going to sell the same boring FIFA Football iteration every year, and suddenly they found themselves trailing PES from so far behind because they had been coasting for many years.
    Would everyone pay for a data update just to keep SI in business? I would certainly think twice, i only enjoy FM when the real players start to retire, and i know there are quite a lot who play the same way, what benefits would we get from a £10 data update? Its a fallocy to think that SI will make enough from a datapatch to cover the running costs of a studio who's busniess plan revolves around a yearly release. It just wont happen and the likely hood is, with Sega struggling financially, that we would never see another FM game. Your right Sega are not a 4th rate developer, but they are in real financial trouble and FM is one of their best sellers, people need to accept there will not be a missed year for a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmobande View Post
    You don't see oldschool 4-3-3s with one striker flanked by two second strikers in real life anymore

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Would everyone pay for a data update just to keep SI in business?
    Haven't we been doing that already? ;)

    Seriously though, I know it's not that easy and it won't likely happen because in the end a glorified patch+data update still sells plenty of copies so they see no benefit in skipping a year.

    However they could (should?) have had a plan B, say starting to develop a brand new code while still churning out the yearly "old and improved" iteration to keep the studios going.
    It would have taken several years, basically working on almost two projects, but frankly they can't keep on tweaking and retweaking the same stuff year after year.

    It's been 4 iteration based on the 3D match engine, which is, to this day, the latest game-changing [albeit mostly cosmetic] innovation. The core of the game is how old now?

    So while I totally understand why SEGA/SI aren't willing/able to "waste" one year for a greater good, I still maintain they'll have to do something sooner or later... and sooner will be better, as they can still operate on what is almost a monopoly. Still better than having to rush things not to get buried by Random Games "Manager of Football 2015", don't you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBKalle View Post
    Haven't we been doing that already? ;)

    Seriously though, I know it's not that easy and it won't likely happen because in the end a glorified patch+data update still sells plenty of copies so they see no benefit in skipping a year.

    However they could (should?) have had a plan B, say starting to develop a brand new code while still churning out the yearly "old and improved" iteration to keep the studios going.
    It would have taken several years, basically working on almost two projects, but frankly they can't keep on tweaking and retweaking the same stuff year after year.

    It's been 4 iteration based on the 3D match engine, which is, to this day, the latest game-changing [albeit mostly cosmetic] innovation. The core of the game is how old now?

    So while I totally understand why SEGA/SI aren't willing/able to "waste" one year for a greater good, I still maintain they'll have to do something sooner or later... and sooner will be better, as they can still operate on what is almost a monopoly. Still better than having to rush things not to get buried by Random Games "Manager of Football 2015", don't you think?
    Hahaha touche!!

    Seriously tho, do you know that they are not working on a new code? Or is it an assumption? We know for certain they are working on a new ME, that may provide a huge amount of difference to the game play. It is possible they are also working on other major changes, but are not ready to announce anything about them. I would disagree on the 3D being the last game changing innovation, the add/remove leagues (although doesnt work spot on yet) is a huge change, especially for myself, i like playing one save through a version of FM, having the ability to add and change which leagues are avaliable has added 50 seasons onto my game.

    Like everyone else i want a perfect FM, or at least as close as is possible with a piece of software, but i understand the business side of things, people moan that SI have stopped doing exactly what their customers want, but the truth is, they make a game for us to buy, nothing more, SI do not owe us anything for our years of playing their game, they make a game, we decide if we want to buy it or not, nothing more. SI are not our friends, they just make the game we enjoy playing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Hahaha touche!!

    Seriously tho, do you know that they are not working on a new code? Or is it an assumption? We know for certain they are working on a new ME, that may provide a huge amount of difference to the game play. It is possible they are also working on other major changes, but are not ready to announce anything about them. I would disagree on the 3D being the last game changing innovation, the add/remove leagues (although doesnt work spot on yet) is a huge change, especially for myself, i like playing one save through a version of FM, having the ability to add and change which leagues are avaliable has added 50 seasons onto my game.

    Like everyone else i want a perfect FM, or at least as close as is possible with a piece of software, but i understand the business side of things, people moan that SI have stopped doing exactly what their customers want, but the truth is, they make a game for us to buy, nothing more, SI do not owe us anything for our years of playing their game, they make a game, we decide if we want to buy it or not, nothing more. SI are not our friends, they just make the game we enjoy playing.
    They already had an add/remove leagues (you could select as view only at start and switch between them) in the CM games. Removing and then re-adding a part of the game is hardly innovation.

    FM does have flaws but I still enjoy it. That's the main part, the game is still enjoyable. Like has alreayd been said, if SEGA are in trouble financially, do we want to potentially break SI just to have a more well rounded game? I would rather have a slightly broken game than still be playing the same game for the next 10 years!

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    Everyone is entitled to their own opions, but at the end of the day my opinions is all that matters. And I decree that FM is ace. End of story.

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    ..It's the AI's tactics! ;)

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    Some of the points in the first review are valid - the AI's squad building isn't that great and AI managers do sign too many players for no reason (i.e. who never play). It's still by far the best football management game out there though.

    Second review is laughable - there's no scripting or AI cheating - if you believe that you'll believe anything (btw I just saw Elvis).

    We also all know that each year FM is an evolution not a revolution - has been ever since the Eidos split and the rebranding. It's your choice as to whether you want to buy the game each year or wait a few iterations until it's really changed. I played FM 2006 for about five years before buying 2011 (which I'm still playing). There's quite a lot of changes between 2006 and 2011. I might not like them all, but I appreciate that there's been a lot of effort put into it. If you buy the game each year expecting it to be radically different from the previous iteration, you're obviously going to be disappointed. You don't need to be Nostradamus to know that.

    I feel absoultely no urge to go out and buy FM2012, I probably won't buy a new version until 2014/2015. You really can't complain about SI/Sega's business model and then hand over your cash each year when you know full well how it works.


    Some other points are also quite clearly not true - the match engine is nothing like the one in CM 1, 2 and 3. I mean, sure there's probably been code reused et al, but even the difference between CM4 - the first version with a 2D match - and the latest versions is immense. In CM4, players weren't even able to take a throw in properly... You might not notice the gradual changes if you play every version. You don't really notice that a kid is growing when you see him every day, but when that kid meets his long-lost Aunt, it's "my, look how you've grown!" It's the same with FM. The changes between successive versions are not massive, and a lot is under the surface anyway, but wait a few versions and you might find you're pleasantly surprised at the amount of changes. And mostly the changes are for the better. I still want arrows back though

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    'IGN member speaks the truth about Fm'
    Yeah sure from a certain point of view.
    A couple of points are relevant and valid. But so much of it is only relevant to certain players, as these forums prove there are plenty of people who find the game a massive challenge.
    As for that second review, thats laughable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjm View Post
    Some of the points in the first review are valid - the AI's squad building isn't that great and AI managers do sign too many players for no reason (i.e. who never play). It's still by far the best football management game out there though.

    Second review is laughable - there's no scripting or AI cheating - if you believe that you'll believe anything (btw I just saw Elvis).

    We also all know that each year FM is an evolution not a revolution - has been ever since the Eidos split and the rebranding. It's your choice as to whether you want to buy the game each year or wait a few iterations until it's really changed. I played FM 2006 for about five years before buying 2011 (which I'm still playing). There's quite a lot of changes between 2006 and 2011. I might not like them all, but I appreciate that there's been a lot of effort put into it. If you buy the game each year expecting it to be radically different from the previous iteration, you're obviously going to be disappointed. You don't need to be Nostradamus to know that.

    I feel absoultely no urge to go out and buy FM2012, I probably won't buy a new version until 2014/2015. You really can't complain about SI/Sega's business model and then hand over your cash each year when you know full well how it works.


    Some other points are also quite clearly not true - the match engine is nothing like the one in CM 1, 2 and 3. I mean, sure there's probably been code reused et al, but even the difference between CM4 - the first version with a 2D match - and the latest versions is immense. In CM4, players weren't even able to take a throw in properly... You might not notice the gradual changes if you play every version. You don't really notice that a kid is growing when you see him every day, but when that kid meets his long-lost Aunt, it's "my, look how you've grown!" It's the same with FM. The changes between successive versions are not massive, and a lot is under the surface anyway, but wait a few versions and you might find you're pleasantly surprised at the amount of changes. And mostly the changes are for the better. I still want arrows back though
    That sir, is a very good post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    "Every single user overachieves with relative ease and
    there's no sense of accomplishment when you rack up the accolades."

    That alone proves he's talking bull, obviously hasn't read these forums too much
    You can make FM a lot easier for yourself by using a established clubs like Man U, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Barcelona, R. Madrid etc. When you start off with a team with really terrible players, you have to completely rebuild the squad and that can sometimes take years to fully accomplish, during these years of rebuilding bigger clubs usually end up declaring their interest in your best players, these players get unhappy and either leave when their contract expires or you sell them on causing you to have to replace them, which then increases the length of time taken to fully rebuild the squad.

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    FM is like WWE. No competition and the desire to push on erodes over time. Back when WWE were at their most popular, they had WCW pushing them and challenging every week. Now WWE has nobody to offer a vaible alternative. FM and SIgames is the same. How many of you prefer WWE now to then?

    There are serious issues with FM that never improve or get fixed.
    The match engine is tedious to watch and often shows no likeness to real life footie.
    The transfer system has been the same for YEARS and lacks any realism or enjoyment. Explain to me why if I have a striker of ok ability who is scoring for fun has nobody interested in him, yet a youth player with potential to be the next whomever has every one chasing him. The game considers potential ability more than form, which cannot happen in real life, so why in the game?
    The development of youth players is quite frankly a joke and how I miss the development that you got from players in FMLive.
    The constant repeatition of news items often means constant clicking to just get through the day, without actually reading them. Who wants to read the same thing every other game day? Subscsribe to an award and shortlist a player and you can get over 20 messages saying 'Messi is favourite for world player of the year'.
    Then we get onto the AI, which is pretty poor. The ability to maintain a competitive squad is poor. Even in my game Rangers and Celtic have fallen towards the bottom of the SPL.

    Unfortunately I am at the age where priorities change (it will happen to you all) and buying and having the time to play computer games is not a must do activity. I may miss out FM this year and the next. But I don't really worry... if I come back to it in a year or 5 nothing much will have changed, except maybe I will be able to do something fancier with the editor or maybe tell a player in a conversation the reason he hasn't been picked was because he was 'bloody injured' and not dropped.

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    If you think none of those things* you mention there have not been improved over the years then you really must not pay real attention to what's going on.


    *except for the news items. FML had the perfect system for dealing with this and it really needs to be implemented into FM.

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    "Everyone has taken small teams up the divisions and make them the best "

    Thats a lie. I've never been able to do that, I've always got stuck in the BSS/N playoffs....

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    Ok, perhaps in some instances, "never improved" should be replaced by "rarely improved" or "minimal improvement".

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    Meh, opinions are like you know whats. Everyone has one, most of them stink etc.

    I find both the match engine and player interaction bordering on lazy and appalling, but I'm sure many love these features.

    Why start a thread claiming an opinion as fact?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bearsy2 View Post
    Even in my game Rangers and Celtic have fallen towards the bottom of the SPL.
    In real life Rangers have fallen to div3 ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    In real life Rangers have fallen to div3 ;)
    Yeah, not through poor squad maintenance. How many times in 20 years have they finished outside the top 2? Twice perhaps, if that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bearsy2 View Post
    Ok, perhaps in some instances, "never improved" should be replaced by "rarely improved" or "minimal improvement".
    Again I still completely disagree. The amount of work and change that has actually gone into those features you've singled out is much larger than you're giving credit for.

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    Amusing thread this. No right or wrong answer and if there is it will never be agreed on in these forums lol The basic thing is that SI's sales increase year on year so they must be doing something right. Both reviews are pretty laughable to be honest, I work with about 5-6 people who love the game and never come on these forums (which I know a lot of people dont because they just want to play the game and enjoy it. They don't even notice 90% of the bugs on this game until I point them out (yeah they love me lol). The same people who complain about the game are still the same people who buy it year in year out.

    As me dear old mum would say , you cant have your cake and eat it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    Again I still completely disagree. The amount of work and change that has actually gone into those features you've singled out is much larger than you're giving credit for.
    The amount of work that goes into something like the transfer system, or the match engine, is not really an issue for the consumer. I don't really care how long it took them to code or develop a feature. What I care about is that is it an accurate, enjoyable representation of the real world. in my opinion the fact a shot can curl in one direction then veer off at almost 80-90 degrees to be wholey unrealistic. The fact that Messi dribbles in the same way as Ronaldo is bizarre. Why can we only instruct the players to make forward runs?

    There have been changes, of course there have. But for me there are issues that have been around for a long time that have not recieved the attention they need to. Let me paint the scene... a player comes to me saying that he wants first team football. I agree and say i will sell as soon as I can. I then transfer list the player and offer him to clubs at his value, then a lot less than his value but still no bites. I get the reminder from my Ass. Man saying I promised to sell the guy, yet not my fault nobody wants him. In the end the player gets pissed off as I havent sold him, despite me trying. Its not my fault nobody wanted to buy the guy. The player should be annoyed at the transfer system. Now i am not talking about an Alan Smith who is on 60k a week, but a squad player at a middle of the way club. There generally is a club for every player that wants to play, they just have to keep dropping down the leagues until someone wants him. This is not reprsented in FM at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by billyboyeden View Post
    The same people who complain about the game are still the same people who buy it year in year out.
    Because there aren't any options. There is no competition.

    And it's not like the game is unplayable. I still enjoy it, but it could be so much better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bearsy2 View Post
    The amount of work that goes into something like the transfer system, or the match engine, is not really an issue for the consumer. I don't really care how long it took them to code or develop a feature. What I care about is that is it an accurate, enjoyable representation of the real world. in my opinion the fact a shot can curl in one direction then veer off at almost 80-90 degrees to be wholey unrealistic. The fact that Messi dribbles in the same way as Ronaldo is bizarre. Why can we only instruct the players to make forward runs?

    There have been changes, of course there have. But for me there are issues that have been around for a long time that have not recieved the attention they need to. Let me paint the scene... a player comes to me saying that he wants first team football. I agree and say i will sell as soon as I can. I then transfer list the player and offer him to clubs at his value, then a lot less than his value but still no bites. I get the reminder from my Ass. Man saying I promised to sell the guy, yet not my fault nobody wants him. In the end the player gets pissed off as I havent sold him, despite me trying. Its not my fault nobody wanted to buy the guy. The player should be annoyed at the transfer system. Now i am not talking about an Alan Smith who is on 60k a week, but a squad player at a middle of the way club. There generally is a club for every player that wants to play, they just have to keep dropping down the leagues until someone wants him. This is not reprsented in FM at all.
    I won't argue that the issues aren't still there, they clearly are. But I can see the progress that's being made towards them, which a lot of people seem to be blind to. I wouldn't be able to go back to FM10, as an example, just because the step backwards in so many areas, including those you've mentioned, would be glaring to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantralux View Post
    Because there aren't any options. There is no competition.

    And it's not like the game is unplayable. I still enjoy it, but it could be so much better.
    I understand what you are saying but giving the time constraints and the pressure they are under to meet deadlines, I think it is the best that they can do under the circumstances. Surely no-one believes that would put out an inferior product because they can get away with it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    I won't argue that the issues aren't still there, they clearly are. But I can see the progress that's being made towards them, which a lot of people seem to be blind to. I wouldn't be able to go back to FM10, as an example, just because the step backwards in so many areas, including those you've mentioned, would be glaring to me.
    Agreed. Perhaps Changes would be more noticeable to me had I not played every iteration. A year or two off may revitalise my passion for the game.

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    since SI has only around 7-8 month time to develop a "new game" for the series, the changes are minimal every year, in order to really make huge step forwards they would need to take a break for at least 2-4 years in order to make a really really good game

    if you tweak the AI and such, you need very much time testing it etc. thats just not possible within the short timeframe from season to season if you wanna release a "new game" every year... thats why most "complicated" features are relativly poorly, which is kinda sad, but understandable, because sega needs to make profit with the series, probably cant afford to take a break for 4 years just to make 1 manager series game

    same goes for the fifa manger series, just not enough time to add big features and test it till release

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    People seem to forget that we play the game as well. We want the best possible product that we can produce. To claim "The biggest problem is that any criticism seems to be ignored by SI like it's some sort of whiny minority" isn't only baseless it's downright insulting. We always accept constructive feedback and take it all on board. That's what these forums are for, to give our community the chance to raise their voice.

    Anyone who thinks the AI hasn't been worked on over the last few years is mistaken. It's a massive task and even the tiniest tweak can have rather major knock-on effects on the rest of the game. We're aware that the AI as the game advances can let it down somewhat, but that doesn't mean it's being ignored. We have people for specific areas of the game, so if say someone is spending time working on Press Conferences, that doesn't mean time is being taken away from working on the AI. It's different coders and different teams working on different modules.

    I love the fact that the 'review' criticises the fact strikers can score 50/60/70 goals a season. You're right, it should be 73 like Messi got this season.

    I'm not being serious by the way, we're aware these are extremes in the game, not the norms. Anyway, we'll continue to work on the game and our userbase will continue to find things within the game that they love which others hate. I had a guy telling me today about how he absolutely loved the way you could add your own text to press conferences. Not every aspect of the game is appreciated by everyone. But yes, we're all aware the AI isn't perfect, but in all honesty, even with thousands of coders working on it I'm not sure it ever could be. A couple of years ago we logged a bug where Andy Carroll moved for over £20m. The next summer in real life he moved for £35m. That kind of stuff we just can't compete with. We just strive to make it the best possible game we can.

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    Its not a question of how long it takes to rewrite the match engine. Its a question of how long does it take to balance the gameplay in the new match engine? I don't think people appreciate how difficult this is.

    Still playing FM11, played it over 2000+ hours, manage two teams simultaneously, and still really enjoy player development and the tactical side of the game.

    There are AI squads out there that are competitive, but teams seem to ebb and flow, with AC Milan for e.g. being weak (3rd to 10th best in Serie A) for the better part of the last decade in my save, and now are 2nd best in Italy once again. Lazio got taken over by a tycoon a decade ago and had a VERY strong run, but now their squad is aging and they have moved down the pecking order. In Spain Real Madrid had a long rebuilding period, but are one of the top teams in Spain again (finishing w/ 92 points in 2040/41). The thing is, there are now about 7 competitive teams in Spain, Sevilla, Mallorca, Atletico Madrid, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Valencia, Numancia.

    IMO La Liga 2040/41 is A LOT more fun than La Liga 2011-2016, when Messi and Co were absolutely rampant (entertaining, and a challenge to play against, tho) and it was strictly a 2 horse race, year in, year out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    People seem to forget that we play the game as well. We want the best possible product that we can produce. To claim "The biggest problem is that any criticism seems to be ignored by SI like it's some sort of whiny minority" isn't only baseless it's downright insulting.
    I wish it was baseless, but unfortunately not. Prime example: Steam. I don't think I have to quote Miles (because we all know what he said when addressing the issue), but the general attitude was that the people who had problems with Steam were a "vocal minority", and could therefore be ignored as whiners without SI having to deal with the problem. And it's quite insulting to call it insulting, especially since we both know (as you've confirmed to me) that SI don't really take criticism well. ;)

    Anyone who thinks the AI hasn't been worked on over the last few years is mistaken.
    Don't think anyone believes it hasn't been worked on. But the problem is that it never seems to become balanced. That's why it would be interesting to know why. Is it a matter of not knowing how to solve it? Is it a matter of being content with how it works? Is it a money thing?

    We have people for specific areas of the game, so if say someone is spending time working on Press Conferences, that doesn't mean time is being taken away from working on the AI. It's different coders and different teams working on different modules.
    Yes, but surely logic suggests that if SI pays wages for a person who codes press conferences, that money could instead be used to hire someone able to code AI functionality. So of course it takes away something when focusing on certain areas.

    But yes, we're all aware the AI isn't perfect, but in all honesty, even with thousands of coders working on it I'm not sure it ever could be.
    So you're basically saying that the coders working at SI are the best coders in the world, since no amount of coders would be able to do it better? Many games have excellent AI, so maybe the problem is that the people working on the AI at SI aren't good enough to code an intuitive AI? I mean surely you'd agree that it's a possibility among many?

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    Many games have excellent AI you're right, I very much doubt any have perfect AI as I said, because perfect AI would have to replicate actual human intelligence/emotions etc, which isn't really feasibly possible given the scope of this game and the restrictions in place. And we're not talking about Steam, nobody in this thread even mentioned Steam until you did - that's not really relevant to this conversation about the game itself. And let's be honest, there's not many people who take outright criticism that well, that's why we only ask for constructive criticism. If you think I've said to you in the past that 'SI don't really take criticism well' then you've clearly misunderstood what I've said.

    And yes, the coders at SI are the best coders in the world.

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    The guy has his points but some are harsh. I agree 100% that FM needs competition, CM was flopping last I heard and a solid effort at football management simulation would perhaps get SI's heads outta their cooloo's. Or, maybe, they could do it for us - the people who have kept buying this title for the last 8 years. I like to think I buy it because its the best but if CM was out on PC, (dunno if it is) I'd try it. Simply put, FM is kinda like your new gf - wonderful and exciting in the beggining and then when you get to know her......out the door she goes. I still love it, but if CM reaches a 2013 title, I'll buy that before FM. I'd also like to argue a point he made from the AI side, dominating games n such. I made a possesion tactic, flawless at times. I went 2 seasons without losing and won everything. I did this with Crawley on a long career. I got promoted back to back into the Championship but it took 3 attempts to get in the EPL. Once there, I pluckily survived and eventually made it n won the league - 7 seasons after promotion. I was very happy with that. Dominating after this point was enjoyable too. I dont find it boring winning, or making a small side the best in the world. I truthfully will never ever get bored of doing that. I cant see how you could either!

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    Quote Originally Posted by markyosullivan View Post
    You can make FM a lot easier for yourself by using a established clubs like Man U, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Barcelona, R. Madrid etc. When you start off with a team with really terrible players, you have to completely rebuild the squad and that can sometimes take years to fully accomplish, during these years of rebuilding bigger clubs usually end up declaring their interest in your best players, these players get unhappy and either leave when their contract expires or you sell them on causing you to have to replace them, which then increases the length of time taken to fully rebuild the squad.
    Setting a players asking price very high (100 million would do) stops this, which is useful. (but not very realistic)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantralux View Post
    So you're basically saying that the coders working at SI are the best coders in the world, since no amount of coders would be able to do it better? Many games have excellent AI, so maybe the problem is that the people working on the AI at SI aren't good enough to code an intuitive AI? I mean surely you'd agree that it's a possibility among many?
    That wasnt what was said at all, you have twisted that part. He said no amount of coders would make it perfect, which is true for almost every single piece of software around.

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    There's no such thing as an intuitive AI, some can be made to appear somewhat intuitive dependant on the scenario but they all have to respond to triggers and it's the variety of responses that defines how intuitive they appear to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markyosullivan View Post
    You can make FM a lot easier for yourself by using a established clubs like Man U, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Barcelona, R. Madrid etc. When you start off with a team with really terrible players, you have to completely rebuild the squad and that can sometimes take years to fully accomplish, during these years of rebuilding bigger clubs usually end up declaring their interest in your best players, these players get unhappy and either leave when their contract expires or you sell them on causing you to have to replace them, which then increases the length of time taken to fully rebuild the squad.
    Disagree about the players leaving piece - it's so easy to keep your stars at a smaller club. I have only ever had to sell one player because a bigger club was sniffing about and that is because the chairman stepped in. Even when a player gets unhappy that I turn down an offer, they don't force their way out...they just end up happy again after a couple of months.

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    "I just wish another football management simulation would
    come along and put it to shame one day."
    this is disgusting, who thinks like this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    And we're not talking about Steam, nobody in this thread even mentioned Steam until you did - that's not really relevant to this conversation about the game itself.
    I know, but you said my claim about SI treating criticism like a whiny minority was baseless, and I was just using the Steam discussion as an example of the claim not being baseless, seeing as "vocal minority" was the exact phrase Miles used to avoid having to deal with criticism (regardless of topic).

    And let's be honest, there's not many people who take outright criticism that well, that's why we only ask for constructive criticism.
    Yes, but it's easy dismissing some criticism as destructive just because it's uncomfortable to deal with.

    Many games have excellent AI you're right, I very much doubt any have perfect AI as I said
    You're right, no game has perfect AI. But I don't think that's what people are asking for either. I think they at the very minimum would like to be able to play a long career save without AI controlled teams making outrageous decisions like buying seven strikers when there's only two full-backs in the squad. One would assume such behaviour would have been solved years ago.

    Simply hardcoding into the game that every team always aims to have at least two players for every position would solve such behaviour (yes, I know it's not just that simple, but something along those lines).

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    Newcastle United have only had one left back for the last 5 seasons now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by avine View Post
    "I just wish another football management simulation would
    come along and put it to shame one day."
    this is disgusting, who thinks like this?
    Interesting question :P

    I think if a football management simulation came out that was significantly better than Football Manager, I'd be rapt, because it would represent something new and improved. Not out of any loathing for SI, quite the contrary. But out of the potential personal enjoyment I would get from it.

    But to be frank, I don't see it happening. FM is an established brand, experienced, and with significant assets inherent in their code and networks. They're not the only company out there doing football management sims, but they're the one that do it in the most detailed and realistic way, they make it fun and capture some of the drama of real football. That's not something anyone could top overnight and I doubt it will ever be attempted. Good luck to anyone who tries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    Newcastle United have only had one left back for the last 5 seasons now.
    nitpicking extreme examples doesnt help the problem

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantralux View Post
    Simply hardcoding into the game that every team always aims to have at least two players for every position would solve such behaviour (yes, I know it's not just that simple, but something along those lines).
    I think the problem is that it is, in fact, much more complex than that. The AI's poor squad building frustrates me. If it aggressively went after good players, like I (and I think most other humans) do, and used intelligent rotation and youth development rather than overloading squad depth, it would be able to develop much stronger and tighter squads. But there's no easy fix. I'm certain they've tried tweaking it in this manner - and probably found that it created problems worse than the status quo.

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