+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 203

Thread: Options - Making the game easier or harder.

  1. #1
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Lightbulb Options - Making the game easier or harder.

    For a while now I have been suggesting that the game needs more options, especially for those of us who are having to work silly hours and have enjoyed the game for years.

    Don't get me wrong. If I had the time then I would play the game as intended however, work must come first and I for one am finding it difficult to get into a game with reduced hours to play.

    I thought this thread could not only include ideas for making FM Easier (or less tedious and less number crunching) for those of us with not much time, but also more difficult for those of us with plenty of time who then a couple of seasons down the line are finding the game much easier.

    So I'll start the ball rolling with a simple "option".

    A standard difficulty rating could quite easily be implemented with the following...


    Very Easy (all players in your squad have +3 added to all visible attributes)
    Easy (all players in your squad have +2 added to all visible attributes)
    Helpful (all players in your squad have +1 added to all visible attributes)
    Standard (all players in your squad have no change to all visible attributes)
    Difficult (all players in your squad have -1 removed from all visible attributes)
    Very Difficult (all players in your squad have -2 removed from all visible attributes)
    Impossible (all players in your squad have -3 removed from all visible attributes)

    Obviously attributes that reach 20 or 1 will stay at that level.

    Also I would like to see in the top right hand corner of every screen the difficulty level i.e just a +3 or -1 etc to let everyone know what level you are playing at when you upload screenies.

    This option should also have the ability to be enabled or disabled for online play. So that someone who is excellent at the game and someone who is poor at the game can enjoy FM at their respective levels.

    I make this recommendation not only for those of us who have no time and sometimes just want to stroll through the game winning everything but also for those who need more of a challenge.

    Now for the fun bit - the screenies.

    So how does this work? Well let's look at Cleon's fave club Sheffield United and a player by the name of Ryan Flynn. Here he is at the start of a game.



    Now on the very easy level he is automatically given a +3 boost to his attributes like so...



    A very good player for League One indeed. Remember that this would be the player playing at YOUR CLUB on "very easy" level. Let's say Arsenal came in for him at some point. Well in that case once he transfered to Arsenal he would have the regular attributes as seen in screen one.

    Now if on the otherhand you where managing say Brighton on "very easy" level and bought Flynn from Sheff Utd as he appears in screen one then when he arrived at your club he would look like he does in screen two. So anyone who joins your club on "easy level" gets a boost of +3 on attributes but loses the +3 when they leave.

    With me so far?

    Well now for those of us who love a REAL challenge. With your level set at "impossible" you know the sack is just moments away. Here is that quality player again...



    Now don't forget at your club on "impossible" level all players get an attribute reduction of -3, which the regain when they join another club.

    Obviously few of us would play at these extreme levels with one being a virtually guaranteed success whilst the other appears to be a guaranteed failure but there are other levels in between. It's all about finding the right level for you to make the game more enjoyable.

    PS - Please don't fill the thread with remarks like "The game is perfect as it is I don't think people should have options". They are "options". Just setting your game difficulty level to "standard" would give you the same game that you've always played would it not?

  2. #2
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    I disagree horribly with any artificial ways of boosting game difficulty.

    The game should be made as hard/realistic as possible by default, and then the user is offered different layers of help, via their backroom staff and board, that makes it easier for them. That's the only acceptable way I've ever seen suggested for it to work.

  3. #3
    Third Team
    Join Date
    6th August 2007
    Posts
    8,481

    Default

    Considering that your opening premise is that the game takes too much time to play for the working man I do not see how giving players at user controlled clubs an attribute boost will change the situation.

  4. #4
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Ackter - Then obviously you'd play the game on the default (standard) level.

    Barside - I don't believe you asked that question. Just how hard would you have to work on "very easy" level?

  5. #5
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    No, I object to the whole inclusion of something like this into the game. It is completely, completely the wrong way to go about it. It's completely against what FM is​.

  6. #6
    Third Team
    Join Date
    6th August 2007
    Posts
    8,481

    Default

    You'll still need to do everything in the game & in some areas maybe even more work will be involved to keep your team together & in top form.

    Players will still need to be replaced, they'll lose form, ask for moves (attribute boost = improved performance = interest form AI clubs) & with a boosted team comes more success which will result in more games & more time spent getting through a season.

    As Ackter touched on the way to make the game more accessible for players with limited spare time is to bring in more delegation options in areas such as coaching, scouting, transfers/contracts & finances.

  7. #7
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    No, I object to the whole inclusion of something like this into the game. It is completely, completely the wrong way to go about it. It's completely against what FM is​.
    So we should ban all editors then? What do think a lot of players already do out there. They edit the game. Some to make it harder and some to make it more difficult. I don't see what the objection is. If you don't want to play the game with levels you can just play standard. Why should others have to play the game the way you want to?

    It's a suggested option.

  8. #8
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    You'll still need to do everything in the game & in some areas maybe even more work will be involved to keep your team together & in top form.

    Players will still need to be replaced, they'll lose form, ask for moves (attribute boost = improved performance = interest form AI clubs) & with a boosted team comes more success which will result in more games & more time spent getting through a season.

    As Ackter touched on the way to make the game more accessible for players with limited spare time is to bring in more delegation options in areas such as coaching, scouting, transfers/contracts & finances.
    I see no reason why we can't have both. More options and let us all decide how we play.

  9. #9
    Third Team
    Join Date
    6th August 2007
    Posts
    8,481

    Default

    Will you really enjoy a game that is based on a win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue-win-continue model?

    If you will then there's already a tool out there for you to use, FMTRE will allow you to boost/reduce attributes to your hearts content.

  10. #10
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    I still object completely to it. Next you'll be suggesting the addition of rubber banding.

  11. #11
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    You are both missing the entire point. It's an option.

    If you don't like it then you play on standard. It's exactly the same game.

    What you are doing is objecting to how OTHERS should play the game.

  12. #12
    Amateur
    Join Date
    13th November 2008
    Location
    Manchester/London
    Posts
    702

    Default

    Terrible idea.

    As has been said, the way to make the game more accessible for players who don't have the time or desire to go in so deep is to improve the AI and usefulness of backroom staff.

  13. #13
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    No, you're missing the point. The addition of an option does not automatically mean it's a good thing. An option that is fundamentally against the footballing world FM is attempting to create will never be a good thing.

    There are much better and more realistic ways to achieve a difficulty level that fits with how the gaming world works.

    I'm objecting to how the approach to the game for SI will have to be changed in order to incorporate an idea like this. That would be the first step in a very, very wrong direction.

  14. #14
    Amateur
    Join Date
    13th November 2008
    Location
    Manchester/London
    Posts
    702

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    You are both missing the entire point. It's an option.

    If you don't like it then you play on standard. It's exactly the same game.

    What you are doing is objecting to how OTHERS should play the game.
    So why not download FMRTE or give yourself a starter advantage with the editor?

    You can make the changes you want without tampering with everyone else's game.

  15. #15
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Plus you are also forgetting the legend of Football Manager Live.

    The one inescapable truth is that most people, when finding a game difficult, invariabley STOP playing it.

  16. #16
    Third Team
    Join Date
    6th August 2007
    Posts
    8,481

    Default

    As an option it will still need to be coded for balance & stability followed by extensive testing, it's a poor use of resources for a feature that would have little or no impact on how much time you have to invest in playing the game.

    Basically you want a 'WIN MATCH' button without removing all the bits in the middle, do you enjoy playing FM or do you only enjoy playing FM when you win?
    Last edited by Barside; 12-07-2012 at 10:24.

  17. #17
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spart View Post
    So why not download FMRTE or give yourself a starter advantage with the editor?

    You can make the changes you want without tampering with everyone else's game.
    Obviously not read the article properly. Please read it again. The game is exactly the same on standard level. Doesn't affect anyone else's game at all.

  18. #18
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    Plus you are also forgetting the legend of Football Manager Live.

    The one inescapable truth is that most people, when finding a game difficult, invariabley STOP playing it.
    FML can not be compared to FM. With the exception of starting database and match engine, it was a completely different world.

  19. #19
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    Obviously not read the article properly. Please read it again. The game is exactly the same on standard level. Doesn't affect anyone else's game at all.
    Wrong, any change to how the game works can have far reaching consequences, without taking into account the resources needed that Barside touched on earlier.

  20. #20
    Third Team
    Join Date
    29th April 2003
    Location
    Feels he should be in the game
    Posts
    7,009

    Default

    Some time ago I also created a similar proposal:
    http://community.sigames.com/showthr...ficulty-levels

    My idea did not relate to attributes, but to the financial side of the game and reputation. It would affect your budgets and which players you could get or keep. Maybe nowadays it would also act like the starting rep options work as difficulty setting for your own reputation.

    I still heavily oppose any kind of influence of difficulty settings on the ME. I don't want the game to cheat against me or in my favour due to such setting. No shot which would go in should hit the post instead or vice versa.
    However, I'm as much still very much in favour of any setting which allows to customize the game experience in terms of difficulty as well, even more as nobody is forced to use it. Then it just allows the people who like to have it to make use of that which goes at nobody's expense at all.

    As long as the effect is simple, what's wrong with it?
    Therefore I like the suggestion as much as I still do like my own ideas from the other thread

  21. #21
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    FML can not be compared to FM. With the exception of starting database and match engine, it was a completely different world.
    But the principal is the same. At the end of the day we are playing a game. It's a simulation but only up to a point. Let's not get carried away by believing we are all football managers. We aren't. All of us are at the end of the day finding a way to exploit the AI and defeat it. Some to a great degree and some to a lesser but in essence that's all we are doing.

  22. #22
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    Incidentally, something as simple as adding and removing attributes won't actually have much of an effect anyway.

    People are already losing when they're Chelsea or Man City. Having boosted players won't make any difference to the difficulty for these players as it's their interaction with the game that is causing them to lose, not the abilities of the players they have.

    As for it providing difficulties, I'm already winning everything with teams full of 18-20 year olds whose attributes are considerably worse, on average, than the teams around me. Working with players a little worse again won't make much difference to me.

  23. #23
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    But the principal is the same. At the end of the day we are playing a game. It's a simulation but only up to a point. Let's not get carried away by believing we are all football managers. We aren't. All of us are at the end of the day finding a way to exploit the AI and defeat it. Some to a great degree and some to a lesser but in essence that's all we are doing.
    That proves your approach to the game is what is causing you problems, not the difficulty of the game itself.

    If you're trying to find ways to exploit the AI, you will lose most of the time. If you're trying to find ways to make your team play in a realistic manner that suits the players at your disposal, you'll get much more success.

    You don't try to break the world, you try to understand the world.

  24. #24
    Third Team
    Join Date
    6th August 2007
    Posts
    8,481

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    But the principal is the same. At the end of the day we are playing a game. It's a simulation but only up to a point. Let's not get carried away by believing we are all football managers. We aren't. All of us are at the end of the day finding a way to exploit the AI and defeat it. Some to a great degree and some to a lesser but in essence that's all we are doing.
    Never wise to speak for everybody without consulting them first.

    I never look for ways to exploit the ME or AI. I'm not even consciously looking to defeat the AI, I just play the game & get equal amounts of enjoyment from a relegation battle, a title challenge or mid-table mediocrity.

  25. #25
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Never wise to speak for everybody without consulting them first.

    I never look for ways to exploit the ME or AI. I'm not even consciously looking to defeat the AI, I just play the game & get equal amounts of enjoyment from a relegation battle, a title challenge or mid-table mediocrity.
    Perhaps exploit is the wrong word. What I meant is at the end of the day we are trying to defeat a computer programme nothing more.

  26. #26
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    6th April 2007
    Posts
    2,940

    Default

    There already is a difficulty level. You want an easy game, manage Barca, Man Utd, Man City, Real Madrid, etc. You want a hard game, pic a low div side.
    I don't understand adding/diminishing attributes based on a difficulty level. So on easy their attributes are better, but wouldn't all the rest of the clubs have the same bonus. If they don't then you are cheating. If you enjoy winning all the time then pick a team that dominates it's respective league.
    The game really isn't that difficult and to make it harder all SI need to do is improve AI squad building. Then you have a game that is equally as difficult/competitive in 2040 than it was in 2012.

  27. #27
    Banned
    Join Date
    15th June 2009
    Posts
    3,954

    Default

    I can see both points of view here and I agree with both, but at the end of the day, this is probably a waste of time for you Stephanie. I really can't see SI implimenting this, especially when you have tools like the FM Editor, FMRTE and Genie Scout available to you.

  28. #28
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryknow View Post
    There already is a difficulty level. You want an easy game, manage Barca, Man Utd, Man City, Real Madrid, etc. You want a hard game, pic a low div side.
    I don't understand adding/diminishing attributes based on a difficulty level. So on easy their attributes are better, but wouldn't all the rest of the clubs have the same bonus. If they don't then you are cheating. If you enjoy winning all the time then pick a team that dominates it's respective league.
    The game really isn't that difficult and to make it harder all SI need to do is improve AI squad building. Then you have a game that is equally as difficult/competitive in 2040 than it was in 2012.
    That's why it's called a difficulty setting. So if you play on the harder levels are you anti-cheating???

    As with making the game easier by being Man U etc... Well FM is different than other games in that we all tend to support one club and more often than not we want to manage that club. So that is a bit of a glib response.

  29. #29
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactic Master View Post
    I can see both points of view here and I agree with both, but at the end of the day, this is probably a waste of time for you Stephanie. I really can't see SI implimenting this, especially when you have tools like the FM Editor, FMRTE and Genie Scout available to you.
    You are probably right. Hence why I did ask for other options people would like to see and also asked for people NOT to post the usual "change is not good".

    It was mean't to be an idea for options thread not a lets flame every idea thread.

    The game at the moment does not lend itself well to people who don't have as much hands on their time as they used to. It's OK asking for in-game help from assistants etc but lets be honest. Staff have always been to a point irrelevant and unhelpful.

  30. #30
    Banned
    Join Date
    15th June 2009
    Posts
    3,954

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    That's why it's called a difficulty setting. So if you play on the harder levels are you anti-cheating???

    As with making the game easier by being Man U etc... Well FM is different than other games in that we all tend to support one club and more often than not we want to manage that club. So that is a bit of a glib response.
    Far from the real truth, you are only speaking for people that play like you. I think you would probably get more of a positive response if you looked beyond yourself and people like you and recognised the wider range of people.

  31. #31
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Unfortunately the wider range of player doesn't frequent these forums.

  32. #32
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,670

    Default

    There are better ways of making the AI more difficult than artificially boosting things/implementing rubber-band AI.

    Would it be a good thing? If done properly, I don't see why not.

  33. #33
    sciegu
    Guest

    Default

    I don't really understand where's problem with changing difficulty of the game by boosting attributes or budget. If somebody wants to play super easy then let them have possibilty to choose it. It's like wondering why other people use downloaded tactics, for me it's ruining whole game, but others enjoy this way of playing.
    Personally i think game should be harder or more realistic and it should be implemented in standard mode.

  34. #34
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryknow View Post
    There already is a difficulty level. You want an easy game, manage Barca, Man Utd, Man City, Real Madrid, etc. You want a hard game, pic a low div side.
    That's not really true though, is it? The game mimics reality. If the game is "easier" to play with a big side, why do Real Madrid/Barcelona/Manchester United bother to hire the best managers? If it was so easy to manage these clubs, why don't they just get Paul Ince or Tony Adams?

    The reason is simple - it's actually really hard to manage top sides and it should be reflected in-game. This is why only the best managers, like Ferguson and Mourinho, manage them.

  35. #35
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sciegu View Post
    I don't really understand where's problem with changing difficulty of the game by boosting attributes or budget. If somebody wants to play super easy then let them have possibilty to choose it. It's like wondering why other people use downloaded tactics, for me it's ruining whole game, but others enjoy this way of playing.
    Personally i think game should be harder or more realistic and it should be implemented in standard mode.
    Exactly my point.

    The way I have suggest it. It doesn't affect anyone who wants to play the game as it's intended. If people thought the game was great as it was we wouldn't have so many downloading other people tactics or editing the game.

    I'm only asking for an option in MY game.

  36. #36
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    Surely you can see why the inclusion of such a feature would fly in the face of everything SI are trying to do with the game?

    FM has always been about a realistic footballing world which the user can insert themselves into and interact with.

    Everything that is added to the game has to make sense from a realism point of view. If it doesn't, then they betray their own ethos and basically become FIFA Manager.

  37. #37
    Third Team
    Join Date
    11th October 2005
    Location
    Rock>>Me<<Hard Place
    Posts
    8,219

    Default

    I think the OP is a terrible idea.

    There are already tools in the game for making it easier including using the editor, by letting your assistant manager have more control or simply by choosing a high reputation at the start of the game.

    If you want a game that takes up less time, perhaps you need the handheld version? Or for those without handheld devices, perhaps SI should release the handheld version for PC users as a kind of FM Lite version?

  38. #38
    Third Team
    Join Date
    11th October 2005
    Location
    Rock>>Me<<Hard Place
    Posts
    8,219

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    Exactly my point.

    The way I have suggest it. It doesn't affect anyone who wants to play the game as it's intended. If people thought the game was great as it was we wouldn't have so many downloading other people tactics or editing the game.

    I'm only asking for an option in MY game.
    It will affect the amount of work SI have to put in to implement it, so in turn will affect the rest of us.

  39. #39
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenco View Post
    I think the OP is a terrible idea.

    There are already tools in the game for making it easier including using the editor, by letting your assistant manager have more control or simply by choosing a high reputation at the start of the game.

    If you want a game that takes up less time, perhaps you need the handheld version? Or for those without handheld devices, perhaps SI should release the handheld version for PC users as a kind of FM Lite version?
    You cannot be serious! [/McEnroe]

  40. #40
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenco View Post
    It will affect the amount of work SI have to put in to implement it, so in turn will affect the rest of us.
    I would suggest that casual players buy the game more than the die-hards. I would also suggest that the die-hards tend to be here on the forums.

    Take too much notice of the die-hards and it becomes a cult with a lot less sales than they could otherwise achieve.

  41. #41
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    I let my assistant do most of the stuff for me, he's incredibly competent.

  42. #42
    Third Team
    Join Date
    11th October 2005
    Location
    Rock>>Me<<Hard Place
    Posts
    8,219

    Default

    I am serious. I don't like doing team talks so allow my assistant to take them. I feel he does a better job than me, therefore is making my game easier. Also saves a little time. Likewise he picks friendlies for me, handles contracts for my youth players, chooses youth candidates, etc. All makes the game easier and saves time.

  43. #43
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st January 2009
    Posts
    178

    Default

    How about the options to "disable" certain players stats aswell as attributes.

    Total attribute masking, but also for example:
    - Player Average rating (therefore scrutinizing players match performance would be critical)
    - Player morale (find other ways of monitoring this: matches, training, chat with player)
    - Player Passing, Tackling, Dribbling stats etc
    - Condition (a manager irl wouldn't be given a % showing player condition, so would need to monitor matches, training etc)

    This meaning you would not be given this information on a plate, but would have to monitor match performance, training performance etc to make the decisions in the game - would maybe make you feel more like a proper football manager, and the challenge would be greater.

  44. #44
    Third Team
    Join Date
    11th October 2005
    Location
    Rock>>Me<<Hard Place
    Posts
    8,219

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    I would suggest that casual players buy the game more than the die-hards. I would also suggest that the die-hards tend to be here on the forums.

    Take too much notice of the die-hards and it becomes a cult with a lot less sales than they could otherwise achieve.
    So are you a die-hard and therefore SI shouldn't take notice of your ideas??

    I myself am a casual gamer these days, so would much prefer my FM Lite idea to be available for the masses whilst still preferring to play the full game myself as I need the immersive experience.

  45. #45
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    6th April 2007
    Posts
    2,940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    That's not really true though, is it? The game mimics reality. If the game is "easier" to play with a big side, why do Real Madrid/Barcelona/Manchester United bother to hire the best managers? If it was so easy to manage these clubs, why don't they just get Paul Ince or Tony Adams?

    The reason is simple - it's actually really hard to manage top sides and it should be reflected in-game. This is why only the best managers, like Ferguson and Mourinho, manage them.
    If FM was that real then none of us would be able to play the game. There is a point where SI would draw a line. Why make it so realistic no one but managers in real life can play the game.

    I just don't feel attribute increases/decreases is the way forward. The editor is there for people that find the game too hard. Add a sugar daddy, increase your budget, increase your rep and you will find the game easier.

    Bad FM players will still lose on easy. Their players will be better than any other in the league but their tactics still suck at the end of the day.
    Maybe a better tutorial and guide to the tactics is needed. Or, maybe a 'no sack' option for people that struggle and don't want to start over. If SI make assistant managers more useful then there really isn't a need for a difficulty level tbh. Veteran players will simply just not allow their assistant manager to take control of most tasks.
    Last edited by Ryknow; 12-07-2012 at 13:03.

  46. #46
    Amateur
    Join Date
    13th November 2008
    Location
    Manchester/London
    Posts
    702

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    Exactly my point.

    The way I have suggest it. It doesn't affect anyone who wants to play the game as it's intended. If people thought the game was great as it was we wouldn't have so many downloading other people tactics or editing the game.

    I'm only asking for an option in MY game.
    The option is there. Use an editor.

  47. #47
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    11th October 2007
    Posts
    1,779

    Default

    Wouldn't this affect player values/reputation etc? If you had cheat mode enabled and all your players have +3, they are likely to be very good in the league they're in, leading to out of the ordinary high rating displays, causing rep and value to increase. So you sell them when they receive interest for being very good (when they're not really as good), make a profit, and then buy some lowly player who's not very good, but when he signs his attributes are pushed up +3? Then do it all again? A good money making scheme I suppose.

  48. #48
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryknow View Post
    If FM was that real then none of us would be able to play the game. There is a point where SI would draw a line. Why make it so realistic no one but managers in real life can play the game.
    This is always a nonsense argument point, and it's only used by people who are unable to argue the point any further.

  49. #49
    Third Team
    Join Date
    6th August 2007
    Posts
    8,481

    Default

    Unfortunately the OP is indicative of modern life, I want it easy.

    There is a less time consuming FM on the market, it's called FMH.

  50. #50
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    15th November 2008
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    2,876

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    I disagree horribly with any artificial ways of boosting game difficulty.

    The game should be made as hard/realistic as possible by default, and then the user is offered different layers of help, via their backroom staff and board, that makes it easier for them. That's the only acceptable way I've ever seen suggested for it to work.
    I agree completely. A strategy game such as FM has to be realistic, it's the player that makes the game easier or harder as he plays it.

  51. #51
    Third Team
    Join Date
    11th October 2005
    Location
    Rock>>Me<<Hard Place
    Posts
    8,219

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Dunbar View Post
    How about the options to "disable" certain players stats aswell as attributes.

    Total attribute masking, but also for example:
    - Player Average rating (therefore scrutinizing players match performance would be critical)
    - Player morale (find other ways of monitoring this: matches, training, chat with player)
    - Player Passing, Tackling, Dribbling stats etc
    - Condition (a manager irl wouldn't be given a % showing player condition, so would need to monitor matches, training etc)

    This meaning you would not be given this information on a plate, but would have to monitor match performance, training performance etc to make the decisions in the game - would maybe make you feel more like a proper football manager, and the challenge would be greater.
    This would just make it a lot more time consuming. Things like condition are there because we can't see them first-hand in training like a real manager could, so how else would we tell how tired a player is?

    Passing / tackling / etc stats are just stats which have been collated for us to save time, not to make the game easier. Otherwise we would have to go through each game and add up all the passes made / completed, which would take forever. Real managers have all these stats readily available to them, whether they look at them or not I couldn't say, but I'd (eden) hazard a guess that they do.

  52. #52
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    11th June 2010
    Posts
    1,343

    Default

    I demand a win button so all I has to do is hammer my head to the space key. Actually any key should be viable as I have a rather large head...

    Seriously OP, you aren't going to more successful (or even speeding up the game) by adding a few points to players attributes. The way FM is put together you need to know how to put together a tactic that suits your players. Also you need to handle man management but that can be taken care of by a decent assistant manager.

    I don't think it's your lack of time that's the problem but your lack of understanding on how FM works. I suggest you to post less in here and spend the extra time on learning the FM basics. I don't write this to be mean but as an honest advice.

    The best of luck on your future FM career!

  53. #53
    sciegu
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjericho View Post
    I agree completely. A strategy game such as FM has to be realistic, it's the player that makes the game easier or harder as he plays it.
    And it will be realistic on standard mode. Can't you guys understand that this will be just option for people who are willing to play easier version ? It won't affect standard mode.

  54. #54
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    It won't be realistic on any mode because an unrealistic function will be present within the gaming world. If one unrealistic function makes it through, any number of others could make it through as well. It's a slippery slope that needs to be kept WELL away from.

  55. #55
    Moderator
    Join Date
    2nd November 2009
    Posts
    6,040

    Default

    Bit of a non starter for me. Requires huge amounts of coding and going in a direction that SI are unlikely to take anyway. A much simpler way is to increase the quality of advice given by the the asssiants and get much more delegation. That then allows for the people who don't have time, to leave much more in the hands of the computer, while not needing a massive overhaul for little benefit.

  56. #56
    Third Team
    Join Date
    6th August 2007
    Posts
    8,481

    Default

    I'm not sure why people would need the game to be any easier, it's easy enough as it is.

    All you need is a modest understanding a football & basis motivational techniques along with an ability to do simple maths & you're perfectly set for a successful career in FM.

    A better tool-tip system & advisor's wouldn't go amiss for those who are daunted by the depth of the game.
    Last edited by Barside; 12-07-2012 at 14:01.

  57. #57
    sciegu
    Guest

    Default

    Did you played Silent Hunter ? You can choose numerouse options which makes game more realistic or less realistic(easier) and tha't all. If you are hardcore player you can set 100% realism and enjoy game. If you are casual gamer you can set 50% realism and still enjoy game. Those options don't affect each other, it's still thesame game which can be easier or harder depending on options you choose. I must addmit that personally i want FM be harder, lot more realistic but i understand people who want just enjoy winning matches without much effort.

  58. #58
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sciegu View Post
    Did you played Silent Hunter ? You can choose numerouse options which makes game more realistic or less realistic(easier) and tha't all. If you are hardcore player you can set 100% realism and enjoy game. If you are casual gamer you can set 50% realism and still enjoy game. Those options don't affect each other, it's still thesame game which can be easier or harder depending on options you choose. I must addmit that personally i want FM be harder, lot more realistic but i understand people who want just enjoy winning matches without much effort.
    The inclusion of such a feature would destroy the SI ethos for realism.

    That is the real problem with introducing a feature like this. It's the first step to undo the realistic world SI have built. Every single thing that SI add to the game has had a basis in realism. Everything.

  59. #59
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    2nd October 2011
    Posts
    2,672

    Default

    An interesting thread and yeah no harm in having "options" and its no different to say editing say all players attributes/budget etc which you can do that now anyway. All he's saying is to have an easy/hard setting so lets say someone like Spurs would then be on par with likes of man u hence a great chance to win the league or could set them to hard so would be challenging to finish higher than the likes of Stoke etc.

    I agree with the idea and yeah on normal I guess if I still got to xmas in real life or into the new year (game out october) and still not got to the CL with say Spurs then id "switch" to easy to beable to do it hence more.
    However worse than that was FM11, I actually won the CL in 2nd season with Spurs (like 3 days after game was purchased) hence I was actually a bit gutted cos I just thought well that's then it was a bit of a downer in terms of what to then do with them. Enabling me to switch to hard would at least be another option.

  60. #60
    Third Team
    Join Date
    5th June 2011
    Location
    Call me Mark not Marky
    Posts
    7,562

    Default

    This really is a horrible idea

  61. #61
    Third Team
    Join Date
    14th November 2008
    Location
    Sarajevo
    Posts
    8,437

    Default

    If any difficulty option(s) would be included in the game I would just stop playing Football Manager.
    www.fmbosnia.com - The game starts here

  62. #62
    Third Team
    Join Date
    11th October 2005
    Location
    Rock>>Me<<Hard Place
    Posts
    8,219

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Andyh21 View Post
    An interesting thread and yeah no harm in having "options" and its no different to say editing say all players attributes/budget etc which you can do that now anyway. All he's saying is to have an easy/hard setting so lets say someone like Spurs would then be on par with likes of man u hence a great chance to win the league or could set them to hard so would be challenging to finish higher than the likes of Stoke etc.

    I agree with the idea and yeah on normal I guess if I still got to xmas in real life or into the new year (game out october) and still not got to the CL with say Spurs then id "switch" to easy to beable to do it hence more.
    However worse than that was FM11, I actually won the CL in 2nd season with Spurs (like 3 days after game was purchased) hence I was actually a bit gutted cos I just thought well that's then it was a bit of a downer in terms of what to then do with them. Enabling me to switch to hard would at least be another option.
    There is plenty of harm, as has already been posted.

    If FM want to appeal to the young, lazy generation who don't want to learn how to play the game and would rather have an easy mode then they will do it.

    If they want to stay true to what they've always done and the true FM fans, then they'll stay well clear.

  63. #63
    Amateur
    Join Date
    25th May 2002
    Posts
    126

    Default

    I have to say i'm not a fan of this particular idea either, however I would personally like to see the game get more difficult. I would like to see at least two things to help this, firstly improve the way the AI builds it's squads (I know it improves every year but it still has a long way to go) as right now for me it's just too easy to build better squads after just a few seasons and then watch as these other teams get older and do little about it. Also, kind of factoring into my first point I would like to see my scouts get it wrong every now and again, it feels like if my scout tells me 17 year old player x will be a world class player then he will be. I want to see my scout get it wrong but also just have highly rated youngsters flop every now and again, even wonderkids as right now it just feels way too easy to build that quality squad in next to no time.

  64. #64
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    22nd November 2008
    Posts
    1,111

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenco View Post
    There is plenty of harm, as has already been posted.

    If FM want to appeal to the young, lazy generation who don't want to learn how to play the game and would rather have an easy mode then they will do it.

    If they want to stay true to what they've always done and the true FM fans, then they'll stay well clear.
    I do believe the 'true fm' fans mostly dissed certain games as too difficult. Particularly the last few years.

    12 is easy though, surprisingly so.

    Anyway, I disagree with the options provided because a +/- stat boost isn't going to do anything at the end of the day. You can have a team of world beaters and they'll do awful if they can't win. If there is going to be difficulty options it's going to be a mathamatical number adjustment for the match engine that heavily puts the chances of victory and 50/50 chances etc in the player's favour, or a removal of the obvious 'pressure' crap that causes your players to flunk at crucial times.

    Stat boosting isn't the way imho.

  65. #65
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    2nd October 2011
    Posts
    2,672

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenco View Post
    There is plenty of harm, as has already been posted.

    If FM want to appeal to the young, lazy generation who don't want to learn how to play the game and would rather have an easy mode then they will do it.
    2 points I'll correct you on, firstly why then bother having the editers then where you could put messi/ronaldo in same team, edit attributes budget etc i.e. making it "easy". I mean yes you could call it "cheating" but at least a official "option" would for me be a better thing. Secondly as I said, I was "gutted" to win the CL with Spurs in only 2nd season of fm11. Ok not like as I did it but say a week later sort of thing after reflecting on it, like oh well thats that then, "too easy".

    I really dont think its a bad idea at all and why should everyone choose easy, I mean your only kidding yourself in terms of "showing" off to others or thinking to yourself winning prem with spurs in 1st year is amazing. End of day you pay for a game, you should beable to decide what to do (i.e. like you can with edit) hence for me the idea is getting better and better as I read/post about it.

  66. #66
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    The editor doesn't destroy the rules of the game world, it just feeds information in to it.

    The integrity of the game world is paramount.

  67. #67
    Amateur
    Join Date
    27th March 2007
    Location
    clinging to a rubber duck in the middle of a raging sea....
    Posts
    668

    Default

    I want to understand what the OP means by making the game easier. Do they mean simply winning more games or understanding how the mechanics work in order to have a better chance at winning games?

    If the latter then a better tutorial tool could be implented, maybe like the annoying miscroft one that questions evertyhing you are doing and offers alternatives.

    With regards to speeding up I don't see how it can be, the whole sucess of the game is based on the fact we the consumer have demanded more and more depth!

  68. #68
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    Offering a director of football-style mode would speed it up considerably. It's how I play at the moment, but it would work better if the assistance I set up was built into the game from the start because it would work in a better and more realistic way.

  69. #69
    Third Team
    Join Date
    11th October 2005
    Location
    Rock>>Me<<Hard Place
    Posts
    8,219

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Andyh21 View Post
    2 points I'll correct you on, firstly why then bother having the editers then where you could put messi/ronaldo in same team, edit attributes budget etc i.e. making it "easy". I mean yes you could call it "cheating" but at least a official "option" would for me be a better thing. Secondly as I said, I was "gutted" to win the CL with Spurs in only 2nd season of fm11. Ok not like as I did it but say a week later sort of thing after reflecting on it, like oh well thats that then, "too easy".

    I really dont think its a bad idea at all and why should everyone choose easy, I mean your only kidding yourself in terms of "showing" off to others or thinking to yourself winning prem with spurs in 1st year is amazing. End of day you pay for a game, you should beable to decide what to do (i.e. like you can with edit) hence for me the idea is getting better and better as I read/post about it.
    Please don't correct me on something you clearly know very little about. If you went into the editor's hideaway you'd see a lot of threads which having nothing to do with editing attributes of players. They are creating alternative league structures (I have a thread there myself which certainly doesn't make the game easier) or releasing extended leagues or transfer updates. That is what the editor is designed for. Sure, you can also edit attributes if you wish, so why not do this to make the game easier? No need for an easy mode in the game as it already exists via the editor.

    But I guess even that is too much work for some people. Let's just have an instant WIN button and be done with it!

  70. #70
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    6th April 2007
    Posts
    2,940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    This is always a nonsense argument point, and it's only used by people who are unable to argue the point any further.
    What are you on about? Did you even read the posts I made or the ones they were relating too.
    If SI made the game as realistic as possible the amount of casual gamers would decline due to the difficulty level and steep learning curve. But, as I said above if they implement the assistant manager properly as new features and difficulty increases then there is no need for gimmicky 'options' as stated by the OP.
    SI are already making it more realistic every year, and with more features comes the need to have 'help' from our assistant and coaching staff. No manager does everything IRL, so options for your assistant to cover areas allow casual gamers to do what they want, while allowing people, like myself, to not have help and micromanage.

    A poor manager IRL will get more help off his coaching staff, he won't suddenly expect for all his players to go up a level because he wants it easy.

  71. #71
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    The game world should be made as realistic as possible, and then the human will be inserted in to that world with as many realistic aids as possible in order to offer different levels of difficulty and experience.

    This is the only way that the game can work and still remain as being fundamentally FM.

  72. #72
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    6th April 2007
    Posts
    2,940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kieronbrown73 View Post
    I want to understand what the OP means by making the game easier. Do they mean simply winning more games or understanding how the mechanics work in order to have a better chance at winning games?

    If the latter then a better tutorial tool could be implented, maybe like the annoying miscroft one that questions evertyhing you are doing and offers alternatives.
    This tutorial would be your assistant manager. As it is already, tickable options for help in areas people either don't understand or don't want to do.
    Just far more useful insight, so he's helpful to beginners and experienced FM players, instead of repeating the same advice constantly.

  73. #73
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    7th July 2010
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    2,490

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    I let my assistant do most of the stuff for me, he's incredibly competent.
    Yes, but just think how utterly brilliant you would be if you did everything yourself.

  74. #74
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    Surely you can see why the inclusion of such a feature would fly in the face of everything SI are trying to do with the game?

    FM has always been about a realistic footballing world which the user can insert themselves into and interact with.

    Everything that is added to the game has to make sense from a realism point of view. If it doesn't, then they betray their own ethos and basically become FIFA Manager.
    To be honest difficulty levels don't really fly in the face of realism. The difficulty level is a level of "metadata" above the game that determines how users interact with the game.

    An example might be an AI that takes longer to think about its tactical moves, or an AI that uses a more accurate algorithm when determining signings on higher difficulty levels. The core functionality - that the AI can change tactics and sign players - is not diminished.

  75. #75
    Amateur
    Join Date
    13th November 2008
    Location
    Manchester/London
    Posts
    702

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    To be honest difficulty levels don't really fly in the face of realism. The difficulty level is a level of "metadata" above the game that determines how users interact with the game.

    An example might be an AI that takes longer to think about its tactical moves, or an AI that uses a more accurate algorithm when determining signings on higher difficulty levels. The core functionality - that the AI can change tactics and sign players - is not diminished.
    Of course it does. On one difficulty Alan Pardew (for example) would sign some great new talents from France while on another he'd move to slowly or not at all, gifting the players and other managers an advantage.

    How does that not impinge upon a game's realism?

    An "easy" difficulty should come from skilled staff who less involved players can delegate to.

  76. #76
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    To be honest difficulty levels don't really fly in the face of realism. The difficulty level is a level of "metadata" above the game that determines how users interact with the game.

    An example might be an AI that takes longer to think about its tactical moves, or an AI that uses a more accurate algorithm when determining signings on higher difficulty levels. The core functionality - that the AI can change tactics and sign players - is not diminished.
    The core functionality is modified in an unrealistic way.

    This is basically advocating a Civilization style stat modifier instead of actually programming the AI properly.

  77. #77
    Sports Interactive Marc Vaughan's Avatar
    Join Date
    5th January 2000
    Location
    Melbourne, FL
    Posts
    5,723

    Default

    Not to be pedantic - but surely you can already do this to some extent if you REALLY want a challenge?

    For instance start at a club with no training facilities and don't sign any staff - your players won't train well and so won't perform as well as they could under normal circumstances.

    If you want 'this effect' with a big favourite club then edit their training facilities etc. in the editor?

    (just saying)

    PS - Regardless of that I'm inherantly also against difficulty levels; it just screws up the entire game simulation and makes the game less enjoyable to users imho. For instance how would you go about signing players if you know they won't perform the same with your club as with others because they're artificially inflated or crippled ... how would other clubs judge your players for signing them if they always do better at your club etc. ....

  78. #78
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    2nd October 2011
    Posts
    2,672

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenco View Post
    Please don't correct me on something you clearly know very little about. If you went into the editor's hideaway you'd see a lot of threads which having nothing to do with editing attributes of players. They are creating alternative league structures (I have a thread there myself which certainly doesn't make the game easier) or releasing extended leagues or transfer updates. That is what the editor is designed for. Sure, you can also edit attributes if you wish, so why not do this to make the game easier? No need for an easy mode in the game as it already exists via the editor.

    But I guess even that is too much work for some people. Let's just have an instant WIN button and be done with it!
    You still dont get it hence its you that has very little clue. Im saying an "option" is way better than so called editing players etc for people who may want to have it easier. What's worse is my main point is that I was disappointed that fm11 was too easy i.e. winning CL with Spurs in 2nd season so was left wondering what to do next so yeah to have a HARDER option wouldnt be a bad thing. This is the 3rd time now I've written this so yeah maybe third time lucky I will get it into your head that err no I dont want a push a button to win type thing. The suggestion of having standards of game as additional OPTIONS isnt a bad idea, understand?

  79. #79
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Go away for 5 mins and the thread explodes.

    Look guys it's not rocket science. Silly statements like "I'm not buying it if it has difficulty levels" just proves a lack of understanding of what I am trying to say.

    Playing on what I originally called "standard" level is exactly the same game you have now. No advantage or disadvantage. So why would you not buy "the same game"??? It sounds like the same people who said "if we have 3D I'm not playing it".

    My lack of time to play the game properly means that I play it the same way as Ackter i.e. a Football Director. It's the only way I can now get into a long term game. Previously I'd have the time and would play every part of the game myself, teamtalks, press, etc and study the transfer market and players in depth and be very successful at it. My last long term game was FM12 with Vauxhall Motors eventually winning everything by the 2020's.

    Does artificially increasing the attributes on an easy level mean players are worth more than on the standard level and have higher reps? Well yes of course. By the same token on the harder level players would suffer the reverse.

    I believe FMH has little Easter Eggs you can earn such as "tycoon" for your club. Why? Because it will appeal to the casual player perhaps? All I'm asking for is the same kind of treatment for the PC version.

    I've enjoyed playing FM since the days of CM2 but now that I lack the time to do it justice it's just not as enjoyable anymore. Hence my request.

  80. #80
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th April 2005
    Location
    Mankind is the only creature smart enough to know its own history, and dumb enough to ignore it.
    Posts
    29,118

    Default

    Sounds like FMRTE was made for you, hey presto! all the ease/difficulty you need.


    \edit/ I think SI should make a real time editor and sell it as DLC, pretty sure it would be cost effective.
    Last edited by Kriss; 12-07-2012 at 18:53.

  81. #81
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    Sounds like FMRTE was made for you, hey presto! all the ease/difficulty you need.
    Not helpfull especially from a mod.

    The forum and SI ask for constructive criticism yet when someone posts something like I have here the mods don't show the same courtesy and are dismissive.

  82. #82
    Amateur
    Join Date
    15th October 2008
    Posts
    603

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    Obviously attributes that reach 20 or 1 will stay at that level.
    And obviously this is why it is a completely nonsense.
    Think of a player with all 1, one with all 2, one all 3, and one all 4. Think at what happens with difficulties from standard to impossible: simply nosense.
    If it's just a matter of attributes, just manage crap teams.
    You can think of modifiers on financial aspects (income/costs), on negotiations, on injuries or whatever, but this thing isn't working from the beginning, sorry.

  83. #83
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Funk View Post
    And obviously this is why it is a completely nonsense.
    Think of a player with all 1, one with all 2, one all 3, and one all 4. Think at what happens with difficulties from standard to impossible: simply nosense.
    If it's just a matter of attributes, just manage crap teams.
    You can think of modifiers on financial aspects (income/costs), on negotiations, on injuries or whatever, but this thing isn't working from the beginning, sorry.
    Why would you play on that level then?

    Wouldn't you play on standard?

    You seem to be forgetting "standard" level would be the game you have now.

    Anyway I've commented enough now. It's for others to discuss this or any other options they would like to see. I just thought I'd throw it out there.
    Last edited by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover; 12-07-2012 at 19:20.

  84. #84
    Amateur
    Join Date
    15th October 2008
    Posts
    603

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    Wouldn't you play on standard?

    You seem to be forgetting "standard" level would be the game you have now.
    The fact is that you can end with a player with all 1 without modification and a player with all 4 who became like the other. I can't find a true logic behind, I mean these things are useful for RTS like Warhammer for example, but FM is kind an environment simulation, if I can explain myself. You touch one variable and there are much other consequences than you may think. What about AI actions/reactions with your player? When and how would they be interested? And when they leave the club will they still be important with a -3 (if you play on easy) or getting listed immediately?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    I just thought I'd throw it out there.
    You did right.

  85. #85
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Funk View Post
    The fact is that you can end with a player with all 1 without modification and a player with all 4 who became like the other. I can't find a true logic behind, I mean these things are useful for RTS like Warhammer for example, but FM is kind an environment simulation, if I can explain myself. You touch one variable and there are much other consequences than you may think. What about AI actions/reactions with your player? When and how would they be interested? And when they leave the club will they still be important with a -3 (if you play on easy) or getting listed immediately?
    Wow. Constructive criticism.

    You do make a good point there mate. I don't for one moment think my idea is perfect, just a starting point but bear this in mind. What actually happens in the game when a club buys a player and he clearly isn't good enough and ends up in the reserves? I haven't noticed any player immediately transfer listed (I could be wrong), so I believe the game already gives players some grace before the club transfer lists them.

  86. #86
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th April 2005
    Location
    Mankind is the only creature smart enough to know its own history, and dumb enough to ignore it.
    Posts
    29,118

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    Not helpfull especially from a mod.

    The forum and SI ask for constructive criticism yet when someone posts something like I have here the mods don't show the same courtesy and are dismissive.
    It was a serious comment, from what I understand a properly working real time editor is by far the most effective way to create difficulty levels and is also least likely to impact seriously on all the other variables.

  87. #87
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    19th August 2000
    Location
    Ramos - Manager of the Psychotic Teddy Bears
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    It was a serious comment, from what I understand a properly working real time editor is by far the most effective way to create difficulty levels and is also least likely to impact seriously on all the other variables.
    In that case mate my apologies. Been a long day.

  88. #88
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th April 2005
    Location
    Mankind is the only creature smart enough to know its own history, and dumb enough to ignore it.
    Posts
    29,118

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover View Post
    In that case mate my apologies. Been a long day.
    No prob, I'm at a disadvantage because I've never used it but I was thinking that you could speed up your game by not bothering with contract negotiations for example (just extend all the contracts)
    Things like that which are the time consuming parts.

  89. #89
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spart View Post
    Of course it does. On one difficulty Alan Pardew (for example) would sign some great new talents from France while on another he'd move to slowly or not at all, gifting the players and other managers an advantage.

    How does that not impinge upon a game's realism?

    An "easy" difficulty should come from skilled staff who less involved players can delegate to.
    We don't know how fast or slow Pardew would move in reality, though. It could be that Pardew scouted Cabaye 5 years ago but didn't want to make a move.

    The "realism" required is that, say, good managers with an eye for talent sign gems that nobody else spots. That does not change with a difficulty level. Indeed, the current level of "difficulty" could be unrealistic right now. For example, say the AI looks five years into the future when signing a player. It could be that, on average, the average manager only looks at four years in advance - i.e. the level of "realism" is not true on the current level of difficulty.

    Remember that you can reload your game and different things will happen, too - i.e. it is entirely possible that even the most difficult AI won't choose the same players Pardew does. Is that realistic? Maybe even Pardew himself won't pick the same players if he could relive his life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    The core functionality is modified in an unrealistic way.

    This is basically advocating a Civilization style stat modifier instead of actually programming the AI properly.
    If done properly, then there is nothing wrong with difficulty levels. An more complex AI that does not use bias nor rubber-banding would be a good AI to use in difficulty levels.

  90. #90
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post

    If done properly, then there is nothing wrong with difficulty levels. An more complex AI that does not use bias nor rubber-banding would be a good AI to use in difficulty levels.
    A good AI shouldn't be a difficulty level, it should be part of the game by default.

    Why would you want to introduce unrealistic limitations or boosts to the AI when you can implement difficulty in a realistic way by making your backroom staff a lot more useful so that you can delegate when required? Make the AI as clever and difficult as you can and you kill two birds with one stone - unaided you're in for a real fight, but if needed that improved AI is also available to you to use.

    Considering your usual stance on the game, this is baffling me. You're usually all about do it the way you think is best, no shortcuts. But here you're advocating the king of all shortcuts.

  91. #91
    Amateur
    Join Date
    5th October 2010
    Posts
    392

    Default

    How would changing attributes of player stats speed up game time in any way? You still have to do the same things to get through a season so it should take the same amount of time anyway, just make it easier to win games.

    I agree with those saying no to this whole idea and Ackter makes a good point - the stats are there to represent a realisitic approach to how good the players are and shouldnt be seen as a difficulty level, it's just default. If you use the tools within the game it can be easy to get everything to go your way. You can use editors to improve the stats of players in an editor, but it isnt going to speed the game up in any way. And if you play with masked attributes (or visual, star based attributes) and use scouts only as opposed to player search, then you get a harder game.

    Ultimately, what it appears you want is not about changing the attributes to make it easier/harder, but a way in which to streamline the entire process of the game to make it quicker to play.

  92. #92
    First Team
    Join Date
    22nd July 2003
    Location
    croydon, uk \'THE master of muppets\' JUST CALL ME POSTAL PROGRAMMER
    Posts
    23,229

    Default

    making the game arbitrarily easier/harder by boosting stats is not the right way to go about things.
    i also dont see how droopping the stats back to how they were when another club buys the player will work. Surely that will seriously destabilise the transfer market as you will be able to sell your 'boosted' players for lots of money and then when the other team get them, they're crap!
    also, how will promotion and relegation for your boosted tem work? will your players continue to get their stats-boosted every time they get promoted? what would be the point in scouring the market for good players then? any crap will do well for you!

    the game-balancing problems are enormous and are completely unreasonable for the perceived benefits.

  93. #93
    Third Team
    Join Date
    11th October 2005
    Location
    Rock>>Me<<Hard Place
    Posts
    8,219

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Andyh21 View Post
    You still dont get it hence its you that has very little clue. Im saying an "option" is way better than so called editing players etc for people who may want to have it easier. What's worse is my main point is that I was disappointed that fm11 was too easy i.e. winning CL with Spurs in 2nd season so was left wondering what to do next so yeah to have a HARDER option wouldnt be a bad thing. This is the 3rd time now I've written this so yeah maybe third time lucky I will get it into your head that err no I dont want a push a button to win type thing. The suggestion of having standards of game as additional OPTIONS isnt a bad idea, understand?
    Funny how you ignored my comments about the editor.

    If you want a hard mode there are already plenty of ways to do it, inlcuding those pointed out by Marc Vaughan earlier. Get a club with poor training / youth facilities (or edit them to lower values), small stadium, loads of debt, poor staff, only buy players of a certain nationality or just use youth players.

    And yes, having difficulty levels is a bad idea as has been pointed out by myself and others more than 3 times in this thread but you don't seem to understand how much it will disrupt the game.

  94. #94
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    A good AI shouldn't be a difficulty level, it should be part of the game by default.

    Why would you want to introduce unrealistic limitations or boosts to the AI when you can implement difficulty in a realistic way by making your backroom staff a lot more useful so that you can delegate when required? Make the AI as clever and difficult as you can and you kill two birds with one stone - unaided you're in for a real fight, but if needed that improved AI is also available to you to use.
    Because I'm not advocating a "boosting" or "limiting" AI. I'm advocating a more intelligent AI that, for example, thinks longer or shorter.

    Compare it to chess AIs. There could be one chess algorithm where "easy" looks ahead 3 moves, "medium" 10 moves, "difficult" 30 moves and "Carlsen" 50 moves. No artificial boosts or limitations as such. It just changes how the AI thinks.

    Delegation is not just a difficulty level modification but makes gameplay quicker as well, as a manager doesn't need to do everything. It's a bigger implication than difficulty changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    Considering your usual stance on the game, this is baffling me. You're usually all about do it the way you think is best, no shortcuts. But here you're advocating the king of all shortcuts.
    You misunderstand my stance. My stance is that this game has to be an awesome game that suits as many people as possible, including myself. Being able to tinker with the difficulty is a positive thing because sometimes you might want to try different things. For example, I might start tinkering with some tactic at the easiest level to ensure it at least basically works, before moving onto the normal difficulty level or higher. Newcomers get to experience the easier difficulty levels while veterans who like tactical battles to the last second might opt for more difficulty levels.

    To me, a difficulty level, as long as it is done right, is nothing more than changing the AI (and it just so happens that some AIs are harder than others). It's not a question on whether realism is compromised because an AI might not be as "difficult" nor "easy" as real-life.

  95. #95
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    I agree that being able to adjust the difficulty is important, but I'm still adamant that it has to be done in a way that is realistic to the gameworld. Any kind of artificial cuts or boosts, for example to the length of time it takes an AI manager to think, is just 100% the wrong way to do something for this game.

    If you start introducing things like that to the game, the game is no longer Football Manager. It may as well be FIFA Manager. It is a very, very important line that should not under any circumstances be crossed. If it was introduced, it would completely destroy the validity of the world that SI have created and the game would no longer appeal to me.

  96. #96
    Amateur
    Join Date
    13th November 2008
    Location
    Manchester/London
    Posts
    702

    Default

    Wasn't there a management game/series a few years back where you could choose from four levels (coach, manager, director, chairman) of job at the start of a save?

    The coach role meant players only dealt with tactics, training and matches; the director role meant players only dealt with transfers, staff contracts etc; and managers covered both sides while chairmen had some other duties and couldn't be sacked (can't remember how it was for sure since I never actually played it).

    Going back to the idea of streamlining the game for players who don't have the time to play, maybe there could be a coach/manager toggle at the start of saves? Coaches could send their directors of football wishlists or a request for a certain type of player (much like how we can currently request our assman's to find loanees), while managers could delegate tactics, training or matches if they so wished.

  97. #97
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,797

    Default

    Yup, that was FIFA manager and it was a very good idea in theory, but as is usual they implemented it badly.

  98. #98
    Amateur
    Join Date
    13th November 2008
    Location
    Manchester/London
    Posts
    702

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    Yup, that was FIFA manager and it was a very good idea in theory, but as is usual they implemented it badly.
    Ah right ok - bar Ultimate Soccer Manager '98 i've always been a CM/FM man!

    I'm sure if SI got working on such a concept for FM though they'd make a good job of it. Seems like a good way of offering people a more hands on/hands off experience while also replicating the DoF/Coaching management model.

  99. #99
    Amateur
    Join Date
    31st October 2009
    Posts
    263

    Default

    I believe it's important to make our starting reputation reliable. It's one of the flaws right now. If that problem solved by SI I don't think we need a difficulty slider... Because of this flaw Kazakhstan U21 team or Frigg could be jumping for hiring you... or same 8-9 team for every starter manager...

    If I want my starting reputation ("1") I must not need any secondary apps. Even sunday league don't give me this number for reputation.

  100. #100
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    I agree that being able to adjust the difficulty is important, but I'm still adamant that it has to be done in a way that is realistic to the gameworld. Any kind of artificial cuts or boosts, for example to the length of time it takes an AI manager to think, is just 100% the wrong way to do something for this game.
    Well, it has to be a different AI of sorts. It's logical that a harder AI will have to think harder (if two AI engines take the same amount of time to produce different results of different difficulties, it makes the "easier" AI a less efficient and less-well-written AI, full-stop).

    It might not even be noticeable to the user. It clearly does not take 20 real-life minutes to simulate an entire match (otherwise AI-AI fixtures would take forever). It is entirely possible that an AI simply takes longer to process (so there will be a higher CPU requirement) but you may never actually see it during a match, because it could take seconds to actually simulate a full AI-AI match.

    You are asking for two AIs that take the exact same amount of time to think but produce different results, one of which is "harder" to play against than the other. You can't do that without handicapping the inferior AI (which is like boosting/inflating attributes, in a negative way).

    If a harder AI cannot take longer to think, and we cannot boost/inflate attributes, you cannot implement difficulty levels. I argue the latter is bad, but the former is good, and is how a lot of difficulty level AIs are implemented.

    Chess AIs that look ahead 3, 5, 10, 20 or 50 moves don't affect the "realism" of the game - because there are so many aspects beyond the AI's algorithm that dictate how realistic it is. It just reflects a skill level the player is comfortable with. The same applies here. If we had an AI that was parameterised in a similar way, it would work.

    An AI that "takes longer to think" does not affect the gameworld in the sense that players' attributes are unchanged. The AI's thinking ability is encapsulated in itself. This is a good AI. Certainly, it affects the results, but then again, that is the point - if the results are the same, there is no AI change!

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts