still confused re training

[Neil Train]

Technical default training contains intensive tactical training?

Is there a guide anywhere as to what is contained in each section? What's in tactical training, attacking training etc?

I have a couple of solid dominant midfielders but I want them to better contribute to attacking moves.

And, unlike fm for pc does tactics include getting to grips with your actual tactics?

Thx

[Dec9693]

Here is mine.

[Neil Train]

Thanks dec

[WayneRooneysHaircut]

The best way to go is to customize the trainings. The base training regimens dont work as well as tweaked ones imo. I use the following trainings...

Fitness: (Everything set to intense, except no goalkeeping, and light motivation) I use this for players 22 and under who are not in the first 11
Attacking: (Attacking + Tactics intense, fitness medium, defense and motivation light) I use this for for attack based players between 23-27, or u-23's in the starting 11
Defense: (Defense + Tactics intense, fitness medium, attack and motivation light) I use this for defense based players (DC, DR/L, DM) between 23-27, or u-23's in the starting 11
General: (Defense intense, fitness + tactics medium, attack and motivation light) I use this for any defense based players 28 or older
Technical: (Attack intense, fitness + tactics medium, defense and motivation light) I use this for any attack based player 28 or older

This tends to work for me as it is based around age based training. (Gettings stats up quick when young, perfecting stats when in the peak, and not over training the older players)

Another thing I do for some players is cycle between attacking and defending based trainings depending on what they "need". For ex. a player like Rodwell I tend to keep on attacking based training, but will cycle to a defensive based training for a third of the season to keep those stats up.

If you have a unique case, tweak one of the trainings specifically for him. Change something like the Fitness training to what you want for the player and put him on it by himself. I generally dont have to make a training for just one player, but I have before. You may want to make a training with max Attack and Defense for your midfielder, so his attack attributes increase, while not making his defense suffer.

Just one mans thoughts!

[Dec9693]

I believe in everything intensive but goalkeepers for outfield players and attacking/defending for goalkeepers. If they cannot handle it then knocking the attacking/defensive down to medium or light but as my tests proved motivation is key; not only for results but player growth and retaining stats.

[WayneRooneysHaircut]

Dec, so you keep everything maxed, regardless of age?

I tend to find with overly agressive schedules that I get more training based injuries.

Interesting about Motivation, ive never given it much thought unless I have a player that consistently gives me issues. (Whom i probably sell anyway!) I may bump up Motivation one notch on my above regimens, and see if it helps.

[Dec9693]

A lot of people do, it is called intensive training. You do get more injuries and a few players moaning but it is a lot better growth wise and if you can get the squad depth/right players or tweak it a bit (for Aber I had attacking/defending on medium to combat it) then it works really well - I am talking about 20-30 attribute raises in 3 months.

Here's a few examples-

Rabiola:


Bernd Leno:


Stefan Bell:


Fraser Fyvie:


As you can see it can make average looking attributes look brilliant quickly.

[Neil Train]

My confusion is why is technique included in tactics? Where then is dribbling? Attacking or tct? As such I have attacking and tactics maxed for almost everyone. I need pass/creat/teamwork to go up, plus technique.

[Dec9693]

Technique can be sought of as not only skill on the ball but execution which is tactical. Creativity and teamwork cannot be trained, you cannot train someone to be creative or for them to be unselfish with the ball - it is human nature.

[Neil Train]

Must admit that to me technique is, er, technical... The creativity to spot opportunities wld be tactical.

Sure ceeativty SHOULD be able to be trained as such.

Teamwork: I've had players go from a 14 to a 19 in a couple of months.

[Dec9693]

Sorry but I see no point with you as you didn't prove anything, you just said "it should".

Technique is the ability to play with the outside of the foot, do skill and generally be gifted on the ball - this can be learnt with practice.

Creativity I disagree, you cannot make someone spot a pass within a game situation with players closing in on them. It would be tactical but you CANNOT train that in my opinion due to it being a gift that is from the person and not as they've spent years perfecting it - it can go up with age but someone with 8 won't get 20 as it isn't realistic. Do you think someone can become a Pirlo when they cannot pick out a pass 5 yards away? No.

Teamwork - That happens mainly with maturity but again you cannot exactly train it. You can train a tactic which will improve this but again if a player is greedy then they won't magically become the most selfless player on the team as you've put them on a training. It is to do with personalities and you cannot alter this as a skill set that passing, tackling and shooting is.

[WayneRooneysHaircut]

My confusion is why is technique included in tactics? Where then is dribbling? Attacking or tct? As such I have attacking and tactics maxed for almost everyone. I need pass/creat/teamwork to go up, plus technique.

Creativity is sorta inherent to the individual. Some people are creative and have imagination, some dont and no matter how much they try to be creative they wont.

I have always looked Teamwork as individual versus team. 0 being the ultimate individual (selfish) and 20 being the ultimate team player. (selfless service) Again, this is not something people train at, they either are or arent. Balotelli may go into matches trying to be a team player, but how often does he revert back to his individual self?

Passing and technique are very much traininable. You can work on those things on the training ground.


As far as the games training options, my assumption is they are addressed as follows... (perhaps Marc can comment)

Fitness = Pace, Stamina, Strength
Tactics = Crossing,Dribbling,Passing, Technique
Attacking = Shooting, Heading, Technique
Goalkeeping = Obvious
Defensive = Tackling, Heading, Technique
Motivation = Morale, (Perhaps mental attributes)

[Dec9693]

Totally agree with you WRH, glad someone agrees .

Also check my link out, I did tests on several players of different poisitons then did the average to find out what is what.

[WayneRooneysHaircut]

Totally agree with you WRH, glad someone agrees .

Also check my link out, I did tests on several players of different poisitons then did the average to find out what is what.

Good stuff.Very interesting.

I would be curious what, if any, variance there would be over a 12 month period as opposed to 3.

Interesting that heading only improved with defensive training. I always assumed Attacking would help that attribute for strikers.

Also,somewhat surprised that tactics dont have a discernable affect on Crossing, Dribbling and Corners,rather only tactics. I have generally always put Tactics on intense assuming that was needed for those attributes.

Im going to tweak my trainings (above) to...

Fitness: (Attack + Defense + Tactics + Fitness intense, Motivation medium) All players 22 and under who are not in the first 11
Attacking: (Attacking + Tactics intense, Fitness + Motivation + Defense to medium) Attack based players between 23-27, or u-23's in the starting 11
Defense: (Defense + Tactics intense, Fitness + Motivation + Attack to medium) Defense based players between 23-27, or u-23's in the starting 11
General: (Defense intense, Fitness + Tactics + Motivation medium, Attack light) Defense based players 28 or older
Technical: (Attack intense, Fitness + Tactics + Motivation medium, Defense light) Attack based player 28 or older

Will see if this doesnt over train the squad or cause excessive injuries.

Will report back!

[Dec9693]

3 in my opinion is the average it takes for a player to get used to a training regime. When doing training sometimes there is a massive increase in the first month then little over the third or the opposite way around (see my pictures) but then it seems to die down and level out with only 1 or 2 increases until the end of the season. Next time have a look and you'll notice this .

If you like I can upload the spreadsheet for you?

[WayneRooneysHaircut]

Yeah I would be interested to look at it Dec!

[Dec9693]

Here you are. You will need Excel 2007+ to open it.

[Neil Train]

Not entirely sure why you're berating me Dec. I'm just trying to understand.

Can't remember how creativity increases in the pc version but age and attacking training are meant to increase creativity. Will experiment with a midfielder with 13 creativity see if I can get it to around the 15-16 mark. Most of the midfielders whoalready possess good creativity don't have the other attributes I need to create a very solid, dominant midfield

[Dec9693]

I am not berating you, you're just not putting your points across in a convincing way (rule of thumb on the internet is to always back up your points) and you are just saying "I believe this".

Attacking training doesn't increase creativity as I've proved. It comes with age, default skill and position being played in (if he is an APM he will more likely to improve his creativity though he has to have the natural creativity to allow him to). Creativity not unlike real life is a skill that cannot be trained. It is inherited from genes and you either have it or don't that is why Pirlo, Mata and Silva are praised so much in the footballing world. You cannot train someone to be buisness minded in real life and the same applies to creativity in football.

[Neil Train]

I wasn't really trying to put points across. Just stating how I'd be liked to see it. In the pc version creativity can be trained, but if not in fmh then so be it.

[Dec9693]

I believe this is because creativity in FM means far less but in FMH it combines several of FM's attributes into that attribute I believe. I don't really delve into FM deep enough to know about the training though like FMH I'd imagine they need a solid base to train for it and be the right age.

[Neil Train]

Yep Dec you're right. I was playing fm 10 yrs before having my laptop pinched and then getting into fmh.

Creativity in fmh, I forget, includes parts of flair ( as does technique)

thanks for reminding me!

[tylerazevedo]

Creativity should be able to be trained.

It's defined like this:

Creativity is all the available moves a player can make at a given time.
Decisions is the likelihood that a player will pick the right move from his given set of available moves due to his creativity.
Technique is the players ability to pull it off, which is then governed by the specific move a player is trying to do...dribble/pass/shoot/etc.

So a player with a 20 for all three would be a nearly unstoppable player at his position. Add tackling for defenders, passing/dribbling for midfielders, and shooting for forwards, and you have a dominant player.

Training creativity would be the equivalent of watching game film, or learning about a new skill move (still need the technique/dribbling/flair to pull it off).

In the main game, attacking trains creativity & ball control trains flair & technique. It's not so cut and dry with the handheld game, but they should be able to be trained, just not as much as other attributes. However, flair and creativity do not train very quickly, but they are trainable. I believe that is the case in the handheld game as well.


Also, teamwork can be trained in the main game as part of 'tactical'. In the handheld, teamwork includes the work rate attribute from the main game. Work rate is trained by the strength category in the main game, so it must be a part of the fitness category in the handheld game.... which means that teamwork can be trained, probably very little (like a point or two over their career), by fitness.

[Dec9693]

Creativity has flair and possibly similar FM attributes mixed in, hence why it cannot be trained or if it can then very slowly and in accordance to position playing/age/natural ability. You will never make a player with creativity of 8 though have 20. I personally don't believe creativity can be trained like a normal attribute though (such as shooting) as this can be practiced wihout natural talent but because FMH has flair in creativity and just creativity in general this has to be done by a player with a skill of creativity (you cannot make a person an amazing artist just through practice).

[tylerazevedo]

Creativity has flair and possibly similar FM attributes mixed in, hence why it cannot be trained or if it can then very slowly and in accordance to position playing/age/natural ability. You will never make a player with creativity of 8 though have 20. I personally don't believe creativity can be trained like a normal attribute though (such as shooting) as this can be practiced wihout natural talent but because FMH has flair in creativity and just creativity in general this has to be done by a player with a skill of creativity (you cannot make a person an amazing artist just through practice).

Agree on the point that you can't take a player with 8 to a 20. But you can take a player with 17 to a 20. That's what I was trying to say, it is trainable. It's just the rate of increase is much slower and can look like "natural progression" because of it (or maybe it was intended to model natural progression?). Part of it has to do with the flair piece. I've never had anyone in the main game gain more than 5 points of flair in their career no matter how hard I train their ball control skills, yet I routinely take players from 5 to 20 in finishing/long shots in the main game. The training rate is just much higher on the attributes you are referring to as "trainable" attributes. The truth is they are all trainable, just some grow much quicker than others due to the nature of the attribute. This translates to the handheld game, but is somewhat masked due to the combining of attributes.

Edit: I believe bravery/aggression/influence/determination are the only attributes that are not able to be trained in the main game. So whatever attributes in FMH contain those three shouldn't be able to be trained, at least to some % of the attribute. In other words, aggression shouldn't be able to be trained and should only be natural progression...if any. Influence is natural progression, which corresponds to leadership. Determination is probably contained in leadership, and can only be trained through tutoring (which isn't in the handheld game). Therefore, leadership is truly untrainable. However, I have no idea where bravery is contained in FMH, but it does improve slowly over time naturally in the main game.

[Dec9693]

I don't think it is determined by your training regimes as much as it is natural progression in age, form and position played (a player who's a playmaker getting 30 assists a season at 21 may grow). I also believe vision is in creativity though it may be in decisions and I cannot see "attacking training" or "tactical training" influencing this. IF you can set a training regime to boost it then as you say it is slow though I think it is more natural progression than what you select for his training.

The difference between FM and FMH is on FM you can say "train to improve your creativity" so he will have a tailored regime for this where as on FMH it is just attacking.

[tylerazevedo]

I don't think it is determined by your training regimes as much as it is natural progression in age, form and position played (a player who's a playmaker getting 30 assists a season at 21 may grow). I also believe vision is in creativity though it may be in decisions and I cannot see "attacking training" or "tactical training" influencing this. IF you can set a training regime to boost it then as you say it is slow though I think it is more natural progression than what you select for his training.

The difference between FM and FMH is on FM you can say "train to improve your creativity" so he will have a tailored regime for this where as on FMH it is just attacking.

I'm trying to be as factual and objective as possible here, so I will just lay this out.

Main game attributes (omitted the set pieces attributes such as corners and long throws):

Crossing
Dribbling
Finishing
First Touch
Heading
Long Shots
Marking
Passing
Tackling
Technique

Aggression
Anticipation
Bravery
Composure
Concentration
Creativity
Decisions
Determination
Flair
Influence
Off the Ball
Positioning
Teamwork
Work Rate

Acceleration
Agility
Balance
Jumping
Natural Fitness
Pace
Stamina
Strength


There are 7 training categories in the main game (GK categories excluded):
Strength
Aerobic
Tactics
Ball Control
Defending
Attacking
Shooting


These 7 categories train the following attributes:

Strength - Jumping/Natural Fitness/Stamina/Strength/Work Rate
Aerobic - Acceleration/Agility/Balance/Pace
Tactics - Anticipation/Composure/Concentration/Decisions/Teamwork
Ball Control - Dribbling/First Touch/Heading/Technique/Flair
Defending - Marking/Tackling/Positioning
Attacking - Crossing/Passing/Creativity/Off The Ball
Shooting - Finishing/Long Shots


This leaves Bravery, Aggression, Determination, & Influence as the only attributes that cannot be trained in the main game.

However, Determination & Influence can be trained through tutoring, which does not exist in the handheld game.

Bravery & Influence progress naturally on their own.

Aggression does not change.




For FMH the attributes are as follows:

Crossing
Dribbling
Heading
Passing
Shooting
Tackling
Technique

Aggression
Creativity
Decisions
Leadership
Movement
Positioning
Teamwork

Pace
Stamina
Strength


There are only 4 training categories as well (not including motivation, still not sure it applies to actual attribute training):
Fitness
Tactics
Attacking
Defending


Since we have been told by the developers that FMH compresses the 32 main games attributes into these 17 attributes and the 7 training categories into the 4, it follows that the only way to know for sure is to determine what main game attributes correspond to FMH game attributes as well as what of the 4 training categories correspond to the 7 main game categories. From there we can determine exactly what trains what.

Some of these are tricky, such as work rate. I used to think it was a part of the strength category in FMH until one of the Dev's (can't remember which) recently told me it is actually part of the team work category. This means that training fitness and tactics should train a player's teamwork.

However, the thing is that all attributes have a different rate of training, which makes it hard to determine if an attribute is being trained at all...such as the case with teamwork and creativity.

Edit: Also, some players just wont train a certain category for one reason or another. I have players who are 5'11" in the main game who wont train their jumping past a 5, yet I have players who are 5'10" who will train their jumping from 4 to 10. I have yet to figure out why this happens, but it has a bearing on the discussion and must be kept in the back of your mind when trying to determine what trains what.

[Dec9693]

Totally agree with that, cannot argue with it as that was the point I was getting at.

I think Neil expects it to grow like shooting but that is impossible though creativity training may be more down to natural growth and "base" talent, but you can train it a bit though it is very slow and won't grow a lot compared to playing a player consistently in a creative role.

[Ceirdiff]

I am yet to see any evidence for long-term success in intensive training, that is, all of your evidence presented to us is short-term taking place over a month or two. Furthermore, for things to be more accurate then the player should not play in games as we know that attribute fluctuation can be attributed to form.

To really look at the benefits long term of intensive training then surely one should take a player, put him in reserves and train him on intensive for two full seasons. Then reload and repeat but with him on standard training. In a spreadsheet keep track of all attribute changes and keep specifics of every injury. Preferably if time is not an issue repeat this 3 times and take the average (haven't really thought which would be most ideal yet).

Next cancel out any changes between the control and the experiment to leave us with a (depending on how you recorded) a month by month improvement caused by IT, and the potential resultant increased likelihood of injury.

[Dec9693]

It isn't that simple, it never will be. 1000s of people since FMH2009 have tried it and it has had numerous amount of praise, I think this is proof enough.

Reserves are generated games so your test would be null from that, yes injuries are increased but we can counteract that with squad depth or modifying the training to suit the player's levels. For example I used a modified version for Aber Town as the players didn't cope with full IT, it was still IT in essence but modified for the team.

Oh and I cannot stress this bit enough - I don't want to spend so much time proving all this to one person as to be honest it is your choice whether you use it but a lot of people do and are happy with it, for me that's good enough. If you don't want to try it and don't trust a lot who recommend it that is your problem. Test it yourself if you wish.

[Ceirdiff]

It isn't always possible to have cover; when I'm taking my teams up through the leagues then I rarely have anymore than 3 or 4 players who aren't regularly played. Relying on others advice isn't always a great idea, but anyway, I doubt 1000s have tried it

I was just suggesting some statistical analysis to back up your claims...

[Dec9693]

You can buy bosmans and frees pretty easily. You should always have team depth anyway (I use 2n+1 rule - N = number of people in that position (keeping in mind splitting up of players such as strong/fast strike partnerships.))

I don't, I've been on forums, Youtube videos and Facebook pages and seen people recommend "intensive training" just like that, Vibe has 7000 members and gets 3k new visitors a day! I think since November 2010 it is a good bet that 1000s have tried it, even more so when it was created in 2009.

I don't believe I need any, there's a lot of proof about growth on people's scout reports and careers on Vibe where they use this training and also loads of people praising it saying how it has worked wonders. I think to me that is proof enough without spending hours doing something to prove something to one person.

[Ceirdiff]

Don't ever work in advertising then if you can't use statistics to back up your arguments, the ASA will soon be onto you

I never find massive team depth a necessity, instead preferring to have players who can play in multiple positions so in the case of a mass injury I just edit my tactics...

[Dec9693]

Bit different doing it for a job with researchers and having to prove something that'll take hours of my time (which I deem to be wasted by doing this) as someone won't try something out for themselves though a lot of other people recommend it.

Depends what training you use and how many games you play, my formulae can deal with this (the 5th player may be a DRC).