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Thread: Too easy to get youth players from high profile countries with good youth systems.

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Too easy to get youth players from high profile countries with good youth systems.

    I have been noticing that it is way too easy to get young players from countries where there's a good level of the youth system. I find it very unrealistic to have youth players from The Netherlands go to England or Spain (and viceversa) or, God forbid, Scandinavia or Australia (not viceversa) when you may have a good youth system but the league cannot compare itself to the one from his home nation. I'm not saying it never happends but it should be far more difficult because it doesn't happen that often IRL. Parents would be against it for example and culture and tradition make it unlikely. Not to mention the scouting network that exists in these countries because they would soon know about a talented player and pick him up for their youth system.

    Basically, I'm saying that youth players from high profile countries (which are also the wealthiest nations economically) with a reputation of a good youth system wouldn't often choose to go to another country and this, I think, should also be represented in FM. You can get otherwise a wacky composition of the youth system and it should be much more traditional in the sense of scouting.

    It should be more traditional in the sense of scouting when also looking for young talent over the borders. Spanish teams would prefer to look in Latin America (exceptions are Barcelona and Real Madrid) whereas Dutch clubs would search in Scandinavia, Eastern Europe, Latin America and Africa most of the time. I hope you get the idea.

    Let me know what you think.

    (I have posted this idea already in the wishlist.)

  2. #2
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    but Man utd have bought youth from practially anywhere.
    you can look where you like, i like that, and i examine africa and my own country more then others.

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    Sure you can look where you like but you won't find many English youth players in Spanish clubs for example.

    The really big clubs are perhaps the exception but for the most part you won't see youth players from for example The Netherlands (Holland) get their education at let's say Everton or at German clubs. Simply because the Dutch system already is very good. It's the same for Spanish youth players but a little different for French players (particularly because of Arsène Wenger's Arsenal).

    There's a sort of tradition that I think should also be in the game because it makes it more believable.

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    Well, you can bet some of the star prospects get picked up eventually, even if IRL it'd wait till they're like 19-23 often. I think asking for such rules risks overcomplicating things, and when you're weighed down with such rules, there's a risk that one change can break everything.

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    Sort of see where the OP is coming from, but don't think things should be hardwired into the game too much because it makes it boring and predictable, especially on longterm games. The problem when stuff is hardwired is that the same thing happens every year, which also isn't very realistic when you think about it.

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    I was thinking this the other day. I was 20 years in to a save managing Gillingham and I had a whopping 24 scouts! That is one for each of the 22 regions in the game (so each year every country was scouted at least once) one scouting my next opponent and the last one (My best scout) would scout the under 18's in England, unless one of my other scouts really liked a player, and I was interested, then I would send my 'Chief' scout. After a season of this I had hundreds of players with 4/5 star potential and rated as potential leading premier league players.

    I filtered it by age, and signed 22 players that were 16 or under from all over the world. The real cream of the crop! I thought then that it was a little unrealistic.

    I admit the occasional youngster with really high potential and ambition would join, but 22 players in a 6 week spell from all corners of the globe? Unlikely.

    I think that players under 18 should need a higher ambition level before agreeing to leave friends and family and move to a new continent!

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    Quote Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
    Sure you can look where you like but you won't find many English youth players in Spanish clubs for example.

    The really big clubs are perhaps the exception but for the most part you won't see youth players from for example The Netherlands (Holland) get their education at let's say Everton or at German clubs. Simply because the Dutch system already is very good. It's the same for Spanish youth players but a little different for French players (particularly because of Arsène Wenger's Arsenal).

    There's a sort of tradition that I think should also be in the game because it makes it more believable.
    i've always been a fan of countries in FM having 'trade links'. so French teams maybe more likely to pick up African players from African Clubs, than other countries - if that was the case in real life, that is.
    conversely, it would be very unlikely that German youth players are likely to move to HOlland on a regular basis.

    so Countries have links with other countries, and clubs within countries can have links to other countries clubs

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    I don't know about Holland, but there's a ton of norwegians aged 14-18 in England on either long or short-term stays(trial or joining a youth team).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lermontov View Post
    Sort of see where the OP is coming from, but don't think things should be hardwired into the game too much because it makes it boring and predictable, especially on longterm games. The problem when stuff is hardwired is that the same thing happens every year, which also isn't very realistic when you think about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by LagosShia View Post
    I think asking for such rules risks overcomplicating things, and when you're weighed down with such rules, there's a risk that one change can break everything.
    I really don't think so. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to look into less-traditional regions and countries but only that it would be harder to get talent from that region if they don't speak the same language as the country where your club is located OR because they don't see the benefit of joining your club because of the overall standard of the youth system in the country. BUT you can always try to sign them and then you may have one individual that breaks all the rules and that's called chance. You'll always have the odd one out.


    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I don't know about Holland, but there's a ton of norwegians aged 14-18 in England on either long or short-term stays(trial or joining a youth team).
    That's probably because the Norwegian youth system isn't of such a high standard combined with the league not being of such a high standard either. Look at it as if it were steps of a staircase. Norway is a step below Holland and Holland a step below England except when it comes to the youth system (ask Steve McLaren ;) ***). Youth from Norway would love to come to either England or Holland. England because of the Premier League and Holland because of the reputation of the youth system, the attacking football, the reasonable level of the league and the opportunities it gives to young players to make their mark. In all honesty, I believe that if a Norwegian player would have the choice he'd rather go to Holland but if he has bad advisors (agents) telling him to go for the money, then he'd probably go to England.


    ***Steve McLaren about the youth system: http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/73598.html
    Last edited by longtimefan; 22-06-2012 at 02:53. Reason: added URL

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWR15 View Post
    I was thinking this the other day. I was 20 years in to a save managing Gillingham and I had a whopping 24 scouts! That is one for each of the 22 regions in the game (so each year every country was scouted at least once) one scouting my next opponent and the last one (My best scout) would scout the under 18's in England, unless one of my other scouts really liked a player, and I was interested, then I would send my 'Chief' scout. After a season of this I had hundreds of players with 4/5 star potential and rated as potential leading premier league players.

    I filtered it by age, and signed 22 players that were 16 or under from all over the world. The real cream of the crop! I thought then that it was a little unrealistic.

    I admit the occasional youngster with really high potential and ambition would join, but 22 players in a 6 week spell from all corners of the globe? Unlikely.

    I think that players under 18 should need a higher ambition level before agreeing to leave friends and family and move to a new continent!
    This would ruin the save for me. Yes, it should be far harder to pry a youngster away from a developed footballing nation, and it should be very difficult to identify reliably how good the kids will be. Attitude of the player should play a bigger role. Andy Carroll has an example.....dud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siambluebird View Post
    This would ruin the save for me. Yes, it should be far harder to pry a youngster away from a developed footballing nation, and it should be very difficult to identify reliably how good the kids will be. Attitude of the player should play a bigger role. Andy Carroll has an example.....dud.
    At the time it seemed like a good idea, but I have now left Gillingham and manage Bayern as my U18's won their league conceding 5 goals and scoring 96 and winning every game. I played the U18's in the league cup and lost in the Semi Final to Manchester Utd. One of the keepers is wanted by Barcelona, Sevilla and Real Madrid (signed from Malaga) he is rated as a potential leading premier league goal keeper and is two stars LESS than my German youngster who plays most the game for the U18s.

    It was after looking at this I realised I had actually lost interest in managing Gillingham and I moved to Bayern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWR15 View Post
    At the time it seemed like a good idea, but I have now left Gillingham and manage Bayern as my U18's won their league conceding 5 goals and scoring 96 and winning every game. I played the U18's in the league cup and lost in the Semi Final to Manchester Utd. One of the keepers is wanted by Barcelona, Sevilla and Real Madrid (signed from Malaga) he is rated as a potential leading premier league goal keeper and is two stars LESS than my German youngster who plays most the game for the U18s.

    It was after looking at this I realised I had actually lost interest in managing Gillingham and I moved to Bayern.
    Do I understand from what you're saying that in some ways you'd still like Gillingham to stay a bit like Gillingham? That everything just comes a little more difficult for you than when you're managing Man Utd for example?

    By the way, I think you're going to get the same problem with Bayern. You're probably going to scout many terrific youngsters from all over the world (even from England, Italy, Spain, France and The Netherlands), have them win everything in their U18 league and be in the same position as you were with Gillingham. Or is it going to be a bit harder for you being Bayern Munich?

    Quote Originally Posted by siambluebird View Post
    This would ruin the save for me. Yes, it should be far harder to pry a youngster away from a developed footballing nation, and it should be very difficult to identify reliably how good the kids will be. Attitude of the player should play a bigger role. Andy Carroll has an example.....dud.
    I agree with you. Your idea sounds like it'll make the game a little more challenging.
    Last edited by longtimefan; 22-06-2012 at 18:41.

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    No more comments? No total disagreements?

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    Wait so your complaining about signing all the best youngsters, that in turn ruined your experience at Gillingham?
    Why don't you use self control and not sign them?

    I see where the OP is coming from but anything hard coded and distinct could distort long term saves. Maybe just an individual variable hidden attribute(att), 0-20 that is 'Youth Loyalty'. Like normal loyalty, but only given to newgens that come through club youth systems. The att only applies to the club they are produced at, and is only active until a random date between 18-20yrs old. So a young newgen with 'Youth Loyalty' 20 won't sign for any club as he feels he can learn everything at his home grown club. As he reaches 18-20 he may be more willing to sign for another club depending on what currently happens, eg. Loyalty, favoured club, etc. Whereas a player with 'Youth Loyalty' 0 would act as normal (What currently is happening).
    There should to be a direct relation between the 'Favoured Club' stat and the 'Youth Loyalty' hidden attribute as well, but of course not in all case. Nothing in FM should be fixed, but newgens with the club as their favoured on creation, should generally have a high 'Youth Loyalty' att. For example, the player has grown up supporting this club and is in no hurry to suddenly miss the chance of playing in the first team.

    Currently though, youngsters on youth contracts generally don't want to sign until they get a pro contract, especially when at reputable clubs. Also, most youth ask for stupid wages as they don't really want to move but will if you offer. It won't stop AI clubs snatching them up, but you can prevent it at your club by simply not signing them on stupid wages. I have a large transfer/wage budget but won't over pay for under17s and especially won't give them over £4k pw. Self control can make a long term save more enjoyable and/or realistic.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by siambluebird View Post
    This would ruin the save for me. Yes, it should be far harder to pry a youngster away from a developed footballing nation, and it should be very difficult to identify reliably how good the kids will be. Attitude of the player should play a bigger role. Andy Carroll has an example.....dud.
    This is a major problem for 2 reasons.

    1. We are all under the impression this game is supposed to be realistic. So we limit the functions of the game as an FU to the developers. Except...

    2. The Game already knows everything. If you don't make the right moves, the CPU will. It knows the potential of its players, yours and others.

    This is where the ratings system vs self righteous FM player is completely ridiculous. Whats the difference between signing a scout or just using Genie Scout? Theres ZERO difference.

    The point is, there should be no rating system based on a number value. The only rating system should be their regarded talent level vs all other variables. Then, when you "discover" a player it'll feel more genuine and his success/failure will link to you more so than just signing the guy with the most stars.

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