+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 116

Thread: Really? [Morale problem]

  1. #1
    Amateur
    Join Date
    22nd May 2009
    Posts
    483

    Default Really? [Morale problem]





    1 defeat (against the perennial runners up) and 1 draw caused my players to go from 'superb' to 'poor'. I think there might be a little problem with the morale functionality. I don't see how anybody can justify that sort of a shift in morale in just 2 matches.

  2. #2
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th October 2008
    Location
    From Lagos to London to Chicago
    Posts
    6,057

    Default

    1 defeat and your team turn into emo teenagers

    Does look a tad excessive....

  3. #3
    Reserves
    Join Date
    8th January 2004
    Posts
    10,753

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomasmc135 View Post
    1 defeat (against the perennial runners up) and 1 draw caused my players to go from 'superb' to 'poor'. I think there might be a little problem with the morale functionality. I don't see how anybody can justify that sort of a shift in morale in just 2 matches.

    All down to their personalities and the team talks you give.

  4. #4
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    4th April 2009
    Posts
    4,144

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar2010 View Post
    All down to their personalities and the team talks you give.
    Frankly not even if he told them "I hate you, I sleep with your girlfriend and I killed your pets" such a morale drop could be justified after such a long undefeated streak.

    The token "complacency defeat" and the subsequent morale nosedive are an artificial (and very sloppy) way to keep the game difficult... Since AI teams can rarely compete in terms of transfers, players development and tactics, the easy way out is sabotaging the human player.

  5. #5
    Reserves
    Join Date
    8th January 2004
    Posts
    10,753

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RBKalle View Post
    Frankly not even if he told them "I hate you, I sleep with your girlfriend and I killed your pets" such a morale drop could be justified after such a long undefeated streak.

    The token "complacency defeat" and the subsequent morale nosedive are an artificial (and very sloppy) way to keep the game difficult... Since AI teams can rarely compete in terms of transfers, players development and tactics, the easy way out is sabotaging the human player.

    It was too easy to keep high morale within the squad and SI changed it in the last patch so it tends more to the centre. Was this right? Did they overdo it? Maybe a little but its better from a game POV and does mean the user needs to consider other factors more.

    Having seen the threads that Thomas tends to create I think its fair to say he doesn't give much thought to personality & hidden attributes. This combined with demanding team talks followed by a defeat and a draw where his team possibly played ok then I don't see an issue with the squad morale as it is.

    Its difficult to say for certain without seeing what he has done over the last few matches but there is a fair chance that his team talks are the cause of the morale as it stands.

  6. #6
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,603

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar2010 View Post
    It was too easy to keep high morale within the squad and SI changed it in the last patch so it tends more to the centre.
    It's overshot a lot more than just "the centre". The players are utterly depressed! A drop to the centre might be justified (disappointment at losing that winning streak, concern after the draw that it could be more than just a blip, etc.), but to thorough sadness?

  7. #7
    Amateur
    Join Date
    6th November 2010
    Posts
    753

    Default

    ANOTHER example of the ridiculous morale issue in FM. It IS FAR too temperamental. PLEASE, PLEASE sort it for the next game guys, I beg you. It's TOTALLY wrong.

  8. #8
    Tactics and Match Engine Moderator
    Join Date
    3rd December 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,244

    Default

    Has nobody ever worked for a godawful boss?

    In my first ever job, the regional office I worked for was putting up the best numbers it had ever achieved in its history. However, due to the total incompetence of the manager, morale was at rock bottom. After months of putting up with how we were treated despite the hard work and good results, I was hauled over the coals for not doing something on a one off occasion that wasn't, under any circumstances, anything to do with my job anyway, which only existed due to the manager's ineptitude and I'd been covering because nobody else would/could. Despite getting all the bonuses the company offered, after that meeting I walked out of his office into the car park and drove home, never to return. Within three months, the rest of the sales/marketing team had also resigned. By the end of the year, the manager was fired and the office shut down.

    Results are not the be all and end all of morale.

  9. #9
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,603

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    Has nobody ever worked for a godawful boss?

    In my first ever job, the regional office I worked for was putting up the best numbers it had ever achieved in its history. However, due to the total incompetence of the manager, morale was at rock bottom. After months of putting up with how we were treated despite the hard work and good results, I was hauled over the coals for not doing something on a one off occasion that wasn't, under any circumstances, anything to do with my job anyway, which only existed due to the manager's ineptitude and I'd been covering because nobody else would/could. Despite getting all the bonuses the company offered, after that meeting I walked out of his office into the car park and drove home, never to return. Within three months, the rest of the sales/marketing team had also resigned. By the end of the year, the manager was fired and the office shut down.

    Results are not the be all and end all of morale.
    If your boss is awful, then morale would be poor over the long-term.

    In the OP's case, they have won since forever, and morale was very good beforehand. So clearly, they are happy with their boss. Then suddenly, one or two matches with poor results, morale plummets to suicidal levels.

    While it might be a "shock to the system", the fact that the team eventually won again after the shock loss and draw (to what is probably a more superior side to the Moldovan league) would suggest to the team that it was just a bad day at the office - normal service resumed. So the morale should surely go back to at least "OK".

    The boss hasn't changed in the OP's case - it's just one bad event - perhaps a bad quarter or a big disagreement within the team that has affected the atmosphere of the company. But the company gets back to winning ways after this bad quarter and the team, while still cautious, can start to feel that it is just a blip, so morale must return to a better, if perhaps more cautious, level.
    Last edited by x42bn6; 23-05-2012 at 13:12.

  10. #10
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    From the screenshots it's only been a week since the loss & drop in morale, would be interesting to see the team morale after another week as it might show the recovery of confidence that you mention.

  11. #11
    Amateur
    Join Date
    22nd May 2009
    Posts
    483

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    From the screenshots it's only been a week since the loss & drop in morale, would be interesting to see the team morale after another week as it might show the recovery of confidence that you mention.
    It's been 16 days since the defeat (19th Feb - 6th Mar) so, I think, any drop in morale should have been negated by now.

  12. #12
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    Sorry, I was looking at the fixture list & not the team page.

    My point about monitoring the effects over a longer period of time still stands, if you pick up a small run of victories & use the correct approach in team/player interactions the morale should pick up as rapidly as it dropped.

    It might be worth keeping a note of how you interact with your players & if things do not progress in what you think is a logical manner then upload your save file to ftp as SI have said a number of times that they want details on any perceived illogical behaviour.

    Goes without saying that you'd need a save files from either before the morale hit or shortly after it happened.
    Last edited by Barside; 23-05-2012 at 13:39.

  13. #13
    Amateur
    Join Date
    22nd May 2009
    Posts
    483

    Default



    This is from an earlier position in the save (I save at different points in case I need to reference something - like now).

  14. #14
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    That's from 6 months early, you might need a save a little closer to the 19th February fixture as there will be quite a few variables in the intervening months.

  15. #15
    Amateur
    Join Date
    6th January 2009
    Location
    El Salvador
    Posts
    762

    Default

    In my experience though, low morale does not affect performance of the team that much. Form goes on pretty much the same regardless of morale. Also, a couple of good wins soon gets morale back up again.
    Tbh it is not a factor that concerns me overmuch.

  16. #16
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,603

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Sorry, I was looking at the fixture list & not the team page.

    My point about monitoring the effects over a longer period of time still stands, if you pick up a small run of victories & use the correct approach in team/player interactions the morale should pick up as rapidly as it dropped.

    It might be worth keeping a note of how you interact with your players & if things do not progress in what you think is a logical manner then upload your save file to ftp as SI have said a number of times that they want details on any perceived illogical behaviour.

    Goes without saying that you'd need a save files from either before the morale hit or shortly after it happened.
    I think it also depends on the odds for the OP against Ajax. Assuming morale is very poor after the loss (the shock at losing the aura of invincibility; more resolute players would bounce back better):

    - If the OP was expected to thrash Ajax, then I think morale should be somewhere between "Poor" and "Very Poor". The blip appears to be something bigger and the team couldn't shake it off. The subsequent 2-0 win might be a dead-cat bounce, again depending on the odds, so yes, more games is a valid ask.
    - If the OP was expected to beat Ajax, then I think morale should be somewhere between "OK" and "Poor". 2-2 is not the worst result in the world, although it doesn't help. More resolute players might spin this in a positive way and see the draw as a gutsy performance after a shock loss. Less resolute players might dread the next game. I think "Poor" to "Abysmal" is too harsh, though. A loss was a complete reversal of form, but drawing after an expected win is a step in the right direction, and for the more optimistic players, the subsequent win is a vindication of the step in the right direction.
    - If the OP was expected to draw against Ajax, then I think morale should shift to around "OK". A draw was expected, so the team is back on track. The subsequent win suggests that the loss was just a one-off so I think the morale should be somewhere between "OK" and "Good".
    - If the OP was expected to lose or get thrashed by Ajax, then I think morale should return to "Good", then somewhere between "Good" and "Very Good" after the win. It's clear that the loss really was a one-off.

  17. #17
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st May 2007
    Posts
    264

    Default

    I have the EXACT same problem with my Juventus team and also had the same problem with another save as Arsenal.

    How can a team be so low on morale having won so many games? It's absolutely RIDICULOUS.

    There's a major problem with morale on this game and it needs sorting out.

    The strangest thing i've ever seen was Junior Hoilett's morale go from superb (at the start of the game) to abysmal at the end of the game when we won 7-1 and he got a hattrick?!

  18. #18
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    I think it also depends on the odds for the OP against Ajax. Assuming morale is very poor after the loss (the shock at losing the aura of invincibility; more resolute players would bounce back better):

    - If the OP was expected to thrash Ajax, then I think morale should be somewhere between "Poor" and "Very Poor". The blip appears to be something bigger and the team couldn't shake it off. The subsequent 2-0 win might be a dead-cat bounce, again depending on the odds, so yes, more games is a valid ask.
    - If the OP was expected to beat Ajax, then I think morale should be somewhere between "OK" and "Poor". 2-2 is not the worst result in the world, although it doesn't help. More resolute players might spin this in a positive way and see the draw as a gutsy performance after a shock loss. Less resolute players might dread the next game. I think "Poor" to "Abysmal" is too harsh, though. A loss was a complete reversal of form, but drawing after an expected win is a step in the right direction, and for the more optimistic players, the subsequent win is a vindication of the step in the right direction.
    - If the OP was expected to draw against Ajax, then I think morale should shift to around "OK". A draw was expected, so the team is back on track. The subsequent win suggests that the loss was just a one-off so I think the morale should be somewhere between "OK" and "Good".
    - If the OP was expected to lose or get thrashed by Ajax, then I think morale should return to "Good", then somewhere between "Good" and "Very Good" after the win. It's clear that the loss really was a one-off.
    It's not just the expected result that is a factor but also how the match unfolded, if he took a 2-0 lead only to see Ajax fight back to grab a late draw then that too should have a negative effect.

    If it was a close game where the result could have gone either way against a strong Ajax side then you're looking at a good chance to boost morale by focusing on the positives in the post match teamtalk & the same goes for a fightback from a 2 goal deficit, if it's a comparatively weak Ajax side then a 2-2 draw is a bad result in the context of the low morale after the last league game.

    Morale above all other areas is relative & has a number of influencing factors, whether FM goes this deep is another question.
    Last edited by Barside; 23-05-2012 at 14:10.

  19. #19
    Amateur
    Join Date
    22nd May 2009
    Posts
    483

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    That's from 6 months early, you might need a save a little closer to the 19th February fixture as there will be quite a few variables in the intervening months.
    What, in their personality?

  20. #20
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    I was referring to every match you've been involved in, each interaction with your squad either on a group or individual basis, your interactions with the media & of course player acquisitions.

  21. #21
    Amateur
    Join Date
    22nd May 2009
    Posts
    483

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    I was referring to every match you've been involved in, each interaction with your squad either on a group or individual basis, your interactions with the media & of course player acquisitions.
    I haven't bought anyone since, but the purpose of the screenshot was to show the squad's personality.

  22. #22

    Default

    Still playing Fm11, haven't had any problems with morale personally.

    I manage a huge squad of players and am able to keep them in line. Are you going to give everyone a new contract to get them back in a good mood?

    So what did you tell your players pre-game, half time and post match, for those two results? Seems like either they are sensitive, or they didn't like what you had to say, LOL.

  23. #23
    Tactics and Match Engine Moderator
    Join Date
    3rd December 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,244

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    If your boss is awful, then morale would be poor over the long-term.

    In the OP's case, they have won since forever, and morale was very good beforehand. So clearly, they are happy with their boss. Then suddenly, one or two matches with poor results, morale plummets to suicidal levels.

    While it might be a "shock to the system", the fact that the team eventually won again after the shock loss and draw (to what is probably a more superior side to the Moldovan league) would suggest to the team that it was just a bad day at the office - normal service resumed. So the morale should surely go back to at least "OK".

    The boss hasn't changed in the OP's case - it's just one bad event - perhaps a bad quarter or a big disagreement within the team that has affected the atmosphere of the company. But the company gets back to winning ways after this bad quarter and the team, while still cautious, can start to feel that it is just a blip, so morale must return to a better, if perhaps more cautious, level.
    The problem in FM is that the level of communication between boss and players isn't deep enough. As long as the manager praises wins and the team is winning, morale is high. Consequently, if the manager cocks up his reaction when things aren't hunky dory, morale needs to drop sharply. That is the outcome of poor man management in a high performing team. It can be compensated for by a return to winning ways, which might not necessarily be the case in the real world.

    My real issue with the OP is it is almost something he's done to cause the extensive morale drop, not a hard coded reaction to a sudden loss.

  24. #24
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,603

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    The problem in FM is that the level of communication between boss and players isn't deep enough. As long as the manager praises wins and the team is winning, morale is high. Consequently, if the manager cocks up his reaction when things aren't hunky dory, morale needs to drop sharply. That is the outcome of poor man management in a high performing team. It can be compensated for by a return to winning ways, which might not necessarily be the case in the real world.
    Did you not see the win after the draw against Ajax?

    I'm not against morale dropping, although I think Superb to Suicidal is too harsh after a win.

  25. #25
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    Which is why wwfan suggests that there has to be another influence besides the defeat to cause the drop in morale & I have to agree with him.

    For the last decade my team has dominated the domestic scene but I am yet to go through an entire season unbeaten & to date I have not suffered any instant drop in team morale following a defeat. I can only put this down to the fact that I attend almost every press conference & regularly chat with my players about their recent performances.

    Obviously you are going to argue differently even though you've not experienced the current morale system.
    Last edited by Barside; 24-05-2012 at 01:02.

  26. #26
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,603

    Default

    I'd've thought that the team would be more relieved than anything to get back to winning ways. Maybe a little sour at a possible bad team-talk - but they've won!

    If it was a particularly bad team-talk, wouldn't there be "Slt" icons beside their names, anyway?

    It doesn't make sense if reconciled to reality.

  27. #27
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    That only tends to comes up after prolonged use of aggressive teamtalks, after more than 1500 matches on FM I'm more or less happy with the current system & if anything I feel that low morale or player confidence has too little impact on match performance.

    I'd've??? That's a horrible contraction.

    Edit: Just had another look at the OP's squad page & it looks like his team is very reliant on the performance of 4 players, he uses the same starting 11 in every match & there is a hint that he's using the corner exploit.

    The lack of squad rotation & the over-reliance on just a few players is imo a prime situation for a defeat to have an enhanced negative impact on morale, moving this to reality even before the defeat he should have had a number of disgruntled players on his books & team confidence built on the shoulders of a small group can be very fragile.
    Last edited by Barside; 24-05-2012 at 10:11.

  28. #28
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,603

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    That only tends to comes up after prolonged use of aggressive teamtalks, after more than 1500 matches on FM I'm more or less happy with the current system & if anything I feel that low morale or player confidence has too little impact on match performance.

    I'd've??? That's a horrible contraction.

    Edit: Just had another look at the OP's squad page & it looks like his team is very reliant on the performance of 4 players, he uses the same starting 11 in every match & there is a hint that he's using the corner exploit.

    The lack of squad rotation & the over-reliance on just a few players is imo a prime situation for a defeat to have an enhanced negative impact on morale, moving this to reality even before the defeat he should have had a number of disgruntled players on his books & team confidence built on the shoulders of a small group can be very fragile.
    I don't get the last bit. Why would a squad with a few niche players be that more more susceptible to morale drops than a squad with simply lots of equally-good players? It might be safer as performances not dependent on the form of their top players, but how does that affect the morale of the whole squad in a big way?

    Yes, there will be a few disgruntled players due to the lack of rotation but those shouldn't really poison the squad to the extent shown above. After all, every team has unhappy players because not everyone can play.

  29. #29
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    I don't get the last bit. Why would a squad with a few niche players be that more more susceptible to morale drops than a squad with simply lots of equally-good players? It might be safer as performances not dependent on the form of their top players, but how does that affect the morale of the whole squad in a big way?

    Yes, there will be a few disgruntled players due to the lack of rotation but those shouldn't really poison the squad to the extent shown above. After all, every team has unhappy players because not everyone can play.
    He's only using 11 though, the rest are not getting a look in which from my perspective increases the chances of having a fractious dressing room.

    As for the total reliance on 4 players this is a problem for me as the rest are not gaining confidence in their own abilities, they are simply being carried along by the other 4.

    The OP is complaining about a perceived unrealistic turn of events whereas I would suggest that the OP could be using unrealistic, maybe exploitative methods to achieve his results which in turn could cause unexpected behaviour.

    All this is however pure speculation as neither of us have access to the OP's save file or the ability to accurately monitor what the game is doing, I can see what happens in my game & how I deal with team morale issues, you are restricted to seeing occasional screen images & the opinion of a disgruntled third party.

  30. #30
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,603

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    He's only using 11 though, the rest are not getting a look in which from my perspective increases the chances of having a fractious dressing room.
    The OP mentioned that the morale of his squad was "Superb". I'm guessing this means that it's "Superb" on "average", which suggests there are no major fractions dressing room, if perhaps a few unhappy players (i.e. di María).

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    As for the total reliance on 4 players this is a problem for me as the rest are not gaining confidence in their own abilities, they are simply being carried along by the other 4.
    I don't see that as an issue. Manchester United weren't miserable when Ronaldo was carrying the club through bad results. Arsenal aren't miserable even though van Persie is a one-man team.

    Players can be confident in their own abilities and still accept that there are some players that are simply better than them. As long as they are contributing to the team well and the team is getting the required results, they should be happy.

  31. #31
    Amateur
    Join Date
    22nd May 2009
    Posts
    483

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    The problem in FM is that the level of communication between boss and players isn't deep enough. As long as the manager praises wins and the team is winning, morale is high. Consequently, if the manager cocks up his reaction when things aren't hunky dory, morale needs to drop sharply. That is the outcome of poor man management in a high performing team. It can be compensated for by a return to winning ways, which might not necessarily be the case in the real world.

    My real issue with the OP is it is almost something he's done to cause the extensive morale drop, not a hard coded reaction to a sudden loss.
    I didn't do anything to cause this. I leave the team talks and the press conferences to my AM.

  32. #32
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    Leaving press interaction & teamtalks to your assman is fraught with danger, had you dealt with these yourself you probably would have kept control of your team.

  33. #33
    Amateur
    Join Date
    22nd May 2009
    Posts
    483

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    He's only using 11 though, the rest are not getting a look in which from my perspective increases the chances of having a fractious dressing room.

    As for the total reliance on 4 players this is a problem for me as the rest are not gaining confidence in their own abilities, they are simply being carried along by the other 4.

    The OP is complaining about a perceived unrealistic turn of events whereas I would suggest that the OP could be using unrealistic, maybe exploitative methods to achieve his results which in turn could cause unexpected behaviour.

    All this is however pure speculation as neither of us have access to the OP's save file or the ability to accurately monitor what the game is doing, I can see what happens in my game & how I deal with team morale issues, you are restricted to seeing occasional screen images & the opinion of a disgruntled third party.
    I have a few gripes with this response.

    Firstly, how can you accuse me of 'relying' on 4 players? As the average ratings patently show, I have a squad of players who are all performing exceptionally well. Yes, my strikers are the players with the most goals, but you expect that in any decent team. What about my two midfielders who are in world-class form, but don't have many goals? What about my goalkeeper who doesn't concede many? You can't just say that I'm reliant upon 4 players when it's clear that the squad is performing as a whole. My bench is mainly made up of younger players who are learning their trade.

    Secondly, I don't appreciate you accusing me of "exploiting" the game? How do teams win in real life? By exploiting their opponents weaknesses. Why am I not allowed to use a corner routine that I used before anyone raised the issue? I'm not in the business of handicapping myself, so don't criticise me for using something that is in the game. Next, you'll be belittling my achievements because I dared to sign somebody.

    Thirdly, this is the Moldovan league. The teams are not great, so obviously a human-controlled team will win the majority of matches. My team is ranked 4 stars, whilst the next highest is 2. Is that my fault? No. My team started off at a similar level to the rest, but I've progressed like any human-controlled team would.

    So, please, don't make unsubstantiated statements about how I'm playing the game. The fact is, their morale dropped after two defeats. I didn't tell them that their pets would be murdered, I didn't threaten to sell them and my AM didn't upset them with any team talks.
    Last edited by Thomasmc135; 24-05-2012 at 19:36.

  34. #34
    Amateur
    Join Date
    22nd May 2009
    Posts
    483

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Leaving press interaction & teamtalks to your assman is fraught with danger, had you dealt with these yourself you probably would have kept control of your team.
    Right, because for the other 9 months that they were happy, I wasn't doing the same things.

    Are you so intent in denying that a problem exists that you're willing to claim everything else? Let me guess, I clicked the mouse incorrectly? I only waited 3 seconds, instead of 4, before I clicked 'confirm team'?

  35. #35
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    If you think that what happened in your game is illogical then upload your save file to ftp for the guys at SI to have a look.

    If you don't then STF up.
    Last edited by Barside; 24-05-2012 at 19:49.

  36. #36
    Reserves
    Join Date
    8th January 2004
    Posts
    10,753

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomasmc135 View Post
    I have a few gripes with this response.

    Firstly, how can you accuse me of 'relying' on 4 players? As the average ratings patently show, I have a squad of players who are all performing exceptionally well. Yes, my strikers are the players with the most goals, but you expect that in any decent team. What about my two midfielders who are in world-class form, but don't have many goals? What about my goalkeeper who doesn't concede many? You can't just say that I'm reliant upon 4 players when it's clear that the squad is performing as a whole. My bench is mainly made up of younger players who are learning their trade.

    Secondly, I don't appreciate you accusing me of "exploiting" the game? How do teams win in real life? By exploiting their opponents weaknesses. Why am I not allowed to use a corner routine that I used before anyone raised the issue? I'm not in the business of handicapping myself, so don't criticise me for using something that is in the game. Next, you'll be belittling my achievements because I dared to sign somebody.

    Thirdly, this is the Moldovan league. The teams are not great, so obviously a human-controlled team will win the majority of matches. My team is ranked 4 stars, whilst the next highest is 2. Is that my fault? No. My team started off at a similar level to the rest, but I've progressed like any human-controlled team would.

    So, please, don't make unsubstantiated statements about how I'm playing the game. The fact is, their morale dropped after two defeats. I didn't tell them that their pets would be murdered, I didn't threaten to sell them and my AM didn't upset them with any team talks.

    I have to disagree with Barside in terms of the first point - For your formation I think you have a fair spread around your team and don't really look heavily reliant on a narrow band of players.

    However 23 goals between your two DCs certainly looks iffy despite how dominant you are in the division. What have other teams scored from FKs/corners?

    By all means play the game how you want but don't expect others to agree with your style of play.

  37. #37
    Amateur
    Join Date
    22nd May 2009
    Posts
    483

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    If you think that what happened in your game is illogical then upload your save file to ftp for the guys at SI to have a look.

    If you don't then STF up.
    How about you close the thread if you don't like what is being said? I'm allowed to discuss what I perceive to be an error.

  38. #38
    Amateur
    Join Date
    12th July 2008
    Location
    Perth Australia
    Posts
    158

    Default

    I also think there is an issue with morale in the game.

  39. #39
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st May 2007
    Posts
    264

    Default

    I actually give up as far as morale goes. It's an absolute ****ing shambles.

    Once again, for no reason at all, the entire squad's morale is on the floor from 1 defeat in 11 games (won the other 10).

    I'm absolutely sick to death of seeing players with abysmal morale and "playing without confidence" HOW?! YOU ARE TOP OF LEAGUE AND IN AMAZING FORM!!!


  40. #40
    Tactics and Match Engine Moderator
    Join Date
    3rd December 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,244

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomasmc135 View Post
    I didn't do anything to cause this. I leave the team talks and the press conferences to my AM.
    Therein lies the rub, my friend.

    If you don't take responsibility for managing morale and the media, you can't complain when things go pear shaped. As with almost every other complaint you read about on these forums, it is down to something you are doing. In 900+ games in my current save, I haven't once had the low levels of morale you saw, even during a desperate relegation battle. It is not difficult to keep morale above average if you pay attention to it, irrelevant to results.

    I suspect your AM gave a series of very poor team / media communications, which resulted in morale plunging, as the team felt it was being unnecessarily pressured or unfairly punished prior to / after one bad result. They were then still peeved after winning a match, again likely to be down to the poor response of your AM. Over time, this won't matter, as morale will rise simply down to a winning streak. However, in the short-term, bad communicative practice can wreck confidence and happiness.

  41. #41
    Amateur
    Join Date
    22nd May 2009
    Posts
    483

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    Therein lies the rub, my friend.

    If you don't take responsibility for managing morale and the media, you can't complain when things go pear shaped. As with almost every other complaint you read about on these forums, it is down to something you are doing. In 900+ games in my current save, I haven't once had the low levels of morale you saw, even during a desperate relegation battle. It is not difficult to keep morale above average if you pay attention to it, irrelevant to results.

    I suspect your AM gave a series of very poor team / media communications, which resulted in morale plunging, as the team felt it was being unnecessarily pressured or unfairly punished prior to / after one bad result. They were then still peeved after winning a match, again likely to be down to the poor response of your AM. Over time, this won't matter, as morale will rise simply down to a winning streak. However, in the short-term, bad communicative practice can wreck confidence and happiness.
    The AM didn't say anything that upset anybody. The only reason the morale dropped was because of the unexpected defeat and draw.

  42. #42
    Amateur
    Join Date
    22nd May 2009
    Posts
    483

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    The OP is complaining about a perceived unrealistic turn of events whereas I would suggest that the OP could be using unrealistic, maybe exploitative methods to achieve his results which in turn could cause unexpected behaviour.
    These 'exploits' of mine have been very effective (!)





    When you consider that my players are far superior to that of other teams, I don't score many. If anything, I'm restoring a level playing field.

  43. #43
    Tactics and Match Engine Moderator
    Join Date
    3rd December 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,244

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomasmc135 View Post
    The AM didn't say anything that upset anybody. The only reason the morale dropped was because of the unexpected defeat and draw.
    Nonsense. If I can stop it from dropping like that, then so can you. Stop blaming the game and learn how to play it.

  44. #44
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    29th July 2008
    Location
    http://thebetterhalf.freeforums.org/
    Posts
    2,610

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellisio View Post
    I actually give up as far as morale goes. It's an absolute ****ing shambles.

    Once again, for no reason at all, the entire squad's morale is on the floor from 1 defeat in 11 games (won the other 10).

    I'm absolutely sick to death of seeing players with abysmal morale and "playing without confidence" HOW?! YOU ARE TOP OF LEAGUE AND IN AMAZING FORM!!!

    I also get these reactions in the dressing room just after à loss, just like everone can be on superb in the same room just after à great win away from home and that is what is expected Of them. Are you saying that are still on abysmal morale the next day becaue mine are not as for me,these reactions are just in the heat Of the moment.

  45. #45
    Third Team
    Join Date
    6th December 2005
    Location
    Lamela! Eriksen! Goldado!
    Posts
    9,388

    Default

    Whilst I appreciate what wwfan and barside are saying and understand that the OP is coming across as a whiner, it is clear that the morale model has been tweaked too far. Cougar is one of the biggest apologists for the game going (and is usually very eloquent in being so) but even he admits in his first post here that it's probably been tweaked too far. Undoubtedly there are things the manager can do to mitigate these scenarios but a lot of the time morale will just take a rapid swing towards bad and it can become very difficult to rescue the situation.
    99% of the threads started in this forum about the various conspiracy theories are absolute nonsense, but it does no one any good to deny that there is a problem with morale. Hopefully it's one that SI will address for FM13.

  46. #46
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st May 2007
    Posts
    264

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBetterHalf View Post
    I also get these reactions in the dressing room just after à loss, just like everone can be on superb in the same room just after à great win away from home and that is what is expected Of them. Are you saying that are still on abysmal morale the next day becaue mine are not as for me,these reactions are just in the heat Of the moment.
    The thing is, although we have lost the game, we haven't lost the tie. It's 3-3 going into extra time. Nothing that went on during this game warranted that huge reduction in morale, ridiculous.

    To answer your other question, no the morale drop is usually not as extreme after exiting the dressing room, but what i'm pissed off about is how the morale in the team is still low after 1 defeat in 11 games, it just doesn't fly with me and is completely unrealistic.

    I could understand that team reaction in the dressing room if we were at the bottom of the league with no wins in 11 but this is just daft.

  47. #47
    Reserves
    Join Date
    8th January 2004
    Posts
    10,753

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edgar555 View Post
    Whilst I appreciate what wwfan and barside are saying and understand that the OP is coming across as a whiner, it is clear that the morale model has been tweaked too far. Cougar is one of the biggest apologists for the game going (and is usually very eloquent in being so) but even he admits in his first post here that it's probably been tweaked too far. Undoubtedly there are things the manager can do to mitigate these scenarios but a lot of the time morale will just take a rapid swing towards bad and it can become very difficult to rescue the situation.
    99% of the threads started in this forum about the various conspiracy theories are absolute nonsense, but it does no one any good to deny that there is a problem with morale. Hopefully it's one that SI will address for FM13.
    Just to be clear I didn't say that morale has or hasn't been tweaked too far, I just posed the question that maybe it has been. Personally I haven't played anywhere near enough of FM12 to draw any conclusions myself.

    But from reading the forums I do know that SI wanted morale to be more volatile and harder to keep at high levels for long periods. I also know from talking to friends (experienced FM players) that despite the changes morale isn't causing them any real concerns.

  48. #48
    Tactics and Match Engine Moderator
    Join Date
    3rd December 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,244

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellisio View Post
    The thing is, although we have lost the game, we haven't lost the tie. It's 3-3 going into extra time. Nothing that went on during this game warranted that huge reduction in morale, ridiculous.

    To answer your other question, no the morale drop is usually not as extreme after exiting the dressing room, but what i'm pissed off about is how the morale in the team is still low after 1 defeat in 11 games, it just doesn't fly with me and is completely unrealistic.

    I could understand that team reaction in the dressing room if we were at the bottom of the league with no wins in 11 but this is just daft.
    How much expectation did the media / team talks put on the team prior to the match? If the team were put under intensive pressure to win comfortably or were told they merely needed to turn up, a loss could result in widespread morale loss. Everything is contextual. Nothing is isolated.

  49. #49
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,430

    Default

    I don't think that the morale system has been tweaked too far in general. Mostly, it functions just alright. But watch the date of that Juventus-Parma match; it's the 1st of April. He is likely to be in the last 10 league matches of the season, and when you go into that period things like this happens frequently.

    Too frequently and too severly in my opinion.

    There is no doubt in my mind that these incredible swings in morale and sudden loss of confidence, extreme nervousness and/or complacency, are hard-coded to begin in the 28th league match. 27th you're fine, 28th and all hell breaks loose.

  50. #50
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st May 2007
    Posts
    264

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    How much expectation did the media / team talks put on the team prior to the match? If the team were put under intensive pressure to win comfortably or were told they merely needed to turn up, a loss could result in widespread morale loss. Everything is contextual. Nothing is isolated.
    From what I can remember, none. It's the Italian Cup, the board basically cast off the competition as Mickey Mouse. I told the team passionately to do this for the fans, all responded well, morale was sky high.

    Once again, we battered the opposition, yet struggled to score. It gets to half time and the team's morale is on the floor, no idea why, the game is still there for the taking. I didn't do any press conferences.

  51. #51
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st May 2007
    Posts
    264

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    I don't think that the morale system has been tweaked too far in general. Mostly, it functions just alright. But watch the date of that Juventus-Parma match; it's the 1st of April. He is likely to be in the last 10 league matches of the season, and when you go into that period things like this happens frequently.

    Too frequently and too severly in my opinion.

    There is no doubt in my mind that these incredible swings in morale and sudden loss of confidence, extreme nervousness and/or complacency, are hard-coded to begin in the 28th league match. 27th you're fine, 28th and all hell breaks loose.
    The problem is though, I also have massive drops in morale in January for no reason also (I brought this up in another thread).

  52. #52

    Default

    LOL "My AM didn't upset them" "I didn't do anything to cause this"

    All I know is from my experience (of what, a mere 2500 games on FM11) morale is not an issue once you know your players, and how to get the best out of them. There are even times when you wouldn't want all your players to have superb morale! Not saying you want them pissed off or angry, but even when your best player plays a 6 there is still an upside. Even when a player gets sent off there is still an upside. If you are dealing with professionals you tell them what was expected, and you fine them!

  53. #53
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th October 2008
    Location
    From Lagos to London to Chicago
    Posts
    6,057

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellisio View Post
    I actually give up as far as morale goes. It's an absolute ****ing shambles.

    Once again, for no reason at all, the entire squad's morale is on the floor from 1 defeat in 11 games (won the other 10).

    I'm absolutely sick to death of seeing players with abysmal morale and "playing without confidence" HOW?! YOU ARE TOP OF LEAGUE AND IN AMAZING FORM!!!

    Well thats unfortunate mate.

  54. #54
    avine
    Guest

    Default

    Quite mental to have so abysmal moraled players tbh

  55. #55
    First Team Squad Member
    Join Date
    27th November 2005
    Location
    Enter the dragon, exit Johnny Clarke
    Posts
    16,094

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellisio View Post
    I actually give up as far as morale goes. It's an absolute ****ing shambles.

    Once again, for no reason at all, the entire squad's morale is on the floor from 1 defeat in 11 games (won the other 10).

    I'm absolutely sick to death of seeing players with abysmal morale and "playing without confidence" HOW?! YOU ARE TOP OF LEAGUE AND IN AMAZING FORM!!!

    Whenever I get that sort of morale after a loss it never ever stays that low and jumps up once I exit the match.

    To the OP did you hold a team meeting after the draw, might have helped bump their morale up a bit. It does seem to be too much of a drop in my opinion.

  56. #56
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default




    A disappointing draw away in the Champions league & a shock defeat at home, when handled correctly & with the right group of players these little bumps in the round can be taken on the chin.

  57. #57
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,603

    Default

    Nobody is denying it's possible to handle it better. It's the sheer magnitude of the OP's team's morale drop that is the issue.

  58. #58
    Reserves
    Join Date
    8th January 2004
    Posts
    10,753

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Nobody is denying it's possible to handle it better. It's the sheer magnitude of the OP's team's morale drop that is the issue.
    So are you saying that the user shouldn't be punished for handling the situation badly?

  59. #59
    Third Team
    Join Date
    6th December 2005
    Location
    Lamela! Eriksen! Goldado!
    Posts
    9,388

    Default

    I don't think anybody is saying that at all. It's the magnitude of punishment that is being contested. Personally I feel morale was too easy to control before, unrealistically so. Now it's been tweaked and as with so many of SI's tweaks it's gone too far the other way. This presents a challenge for sure and one that a good manager can get their head around BUT just because it's manageable that doesn't mean SI have got it right.

  60. #60
    Tactics and Match Engine Moderator
    Join Date
    3rd December 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,244

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edgar555 View Post
    I don't think anybody is saying that at all. It's the magnitude of punishment that is being contested. Personally I feel morale was too easy to control before, unrealistically so. Now it's been tweaked and as with so many of SI's tweaks it's gone too far the other way. This presents a challenge for sure and one that a good manager can get their head around BUT just because it's manageable that doesn't mean SI have got it right.
    I still think it is 100% user related. I have never, in 900+ 2012 matches, had any issue with morale and have never seen it drop to abysmal across the board, either in or between matches. I rarely have any players below OK (2-3 at most). The rest of the squad tends to be good to very good.

  61. #61
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st May 2007
    Posts
    264

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    I still think it is 100% user related. I have never, in 900+ 2012 matches, had any issue with morale and have never seen it drop to abysmal across the board, either in or between matches. I rarely have any players below OK (2-3 at most). The rest of the squad tends to be good to very good.
    Neither have I in any past Championship Manager/Football Manager series. Just FM2012.

  62. #62
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st May 2007
    Posts
    264

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aderow View Post
    Well thats unfortunate mate.
    Unfortunate?

    I felt like sacking them all and shooting myself in the mouth ha ha.

  63. #63
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,430

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    I still think it is 100% user related. I have never, in 900+ 2012 matches, had any issue with morale and have never seen it drop to abysmal across the board, either in or between matches. I rarely have any players below OK (2-3 at most). The rest of the squad tends to be good to very good.
    Yeah, but you have seen AI clubs on an incredible winning streak with low morale and lots of yellow and red arrows yes? The OP said he left team talks to the AM, and the result was really clear. It is very rare for me to encounter AI teams with good morale. They are usually in the Abysmal to Fairly poor range. Since they play well anyway, I usually skip that screen very quickly...

    So yes it is user related - we maintain a good morale, while the AI, including the assistant manager, fails to do so. I have this feeling that if SI could program good AI managers to maintain good morale, they wouldn't have to tune down the importance of good morale as much as they have done now. Before, when Superb morale and max confidence was the norm, I said that I wish that OK/Fairly Good morale should be the default. Now it is impossible to keep Suberb morale for more than a day or two, and players quickly rise from Abysmal morale. But it is still too fragile. Morale should fluctuate much more slowly than it is now - I'm speaking weeks or months to rise from Ok go Fairly good (and stay there).

  64. #64
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st May 2007
    Posts
    264

    Default





    Couldn't do anything but laugh...

  65. #65
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    Surely you'd be deflated after being eliminated from the cup? That said I do believe there is a problem with FM being unable to treat each leg of a two-legged tie in isolation, the questions in press conferences & the available team talk options are a dead give away of this, so a battering in the first leg leaves too much residual effect on your players for the second leg.

    The key aspect is how they react once you leave the match & use the tools provided to try & pick their spirits up after the loss.

  66. #66
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st May 2007
    Posts
    264

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Surely you'd be deflated after being eliminated from the cup? That said I do believe there is a problem with FM being unable to treat each leg of a two-legged tie in isolation, the questions in press conferences & the available team talk options are a dead give away of this, so a battering in the first leg leaves too much residual effect on your players for the second leg.

    The key aspect is how they react once you leave the match & use the tools provided to try & pick their spirits up after the loss.
    Deflated yes, suicidal no. Don't get me wrong i'd expect low morale after a defeat like that but come on, for the entire team to have abysmal morale like that is crazy. Once again this happens after a run of games being unbeaten, I think it was 9 this time. Then we go on a run of 4 games without a win and the first game after this one we are drawing 1-1 away from home at Roma at half time, once again the team has no confidence?!

    This happens every single season and is becoming tiresome. The morale system is far too tempremental.

  67. #67
    Amateur
    Join Date
    1st February 2009
    Location
    Tromsø, Norway
    Posts
    501

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    Nonsense. If I can stop it from dropping like that, then so can you. Stop blaming the game and learn how to play it.
    I think it is a weakness of the game if this happens and people are unable to find out what caused it. I'm not saying it is impossible to find out the cause now, but it should be obvious from a quick glance at the player information. If squad morale drops like a rock in real life, everyone will know why, including the manager. Why not have the reason for recent morale change be listed under player happiness?

  68. #68
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vlobben View Post
    I think it is a weakness of the game if this happens and people are unable to find out what caused it. I'm not saying it is impossible to find out the cause now, but it should be obvious from a quick glance at the player information. If squad morale drops like a rock in real life, everyone will know why, including the manager. Why not have the reason for recent morale change be listed under player happiness?
    I don't think that is true, of course there will be instances where the reason for a drop in morale is a fairly obvious single event but there are other times when it will not be easy to identify as the cause will be a number of small isolated incidents over a long period of time that has resulted in the manager beating down the teams confidence & even if the cause is known should there really be a magic button that puts everything right?

    The is some merit to having additional options to find out why morale is low, possibly some interaction options with staff or club captain to ask for their opinion with a range of feedback including a simple; 'the players do not like you because you spend too much time ranting'.
    Last edited by Barside; 30-05-2012 at 12:56.

  69. #69
    Amateur
    Join Date
    1st February 2009
    Location
    Tromsø, Norway
    Posts
    501

    Default

    No magic button to put it right, but you shouldn't have to browse through press conferences and other logs to find out something you would probably get information about by simply asking a player.

    I just had all my players except five or six drop to "poor" morale. The ones who wasn't affected kept their "superb" morale. I still haven't figured out what caused this sudden drop as i didn't lose a match and no other significant events occured (that i could tell). My squad morale looked really strange with the entire team on unhealthy orange morale with a few exceptions on healthy green . A few matches later (with supportive teamtalks, more so than i usually would have done) they are back to high morale, so my squad morale is under control. It still puzzles me though.

  70. #70
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    You've sort of answered your own question really, the information is to an extent already there & if it is not blindingly obvious what you've done to upset folk then you have to go back over what you have done in the past that could have caused the problem.

    It's a bit like being in a relationship, never ask a women why she's upset.

    Edit: I would highly recommend using the 'rest player' option in the player interaction section, if you have a lad who has played a large number of games simply offering him the chance of a break for a week or two can work wonders. I also keep an eye on players who have low value contracts, if they are an important player but are earning well below my squad average I offer improved terms as this is what I would expect to happen irl.

    Unfortunately keeping morale in check is all about micro-management & trying to spot problems before they happen. I take my approach from real life experiences after more than 20 years of working & picking up lessons from the people I've worked or had working for me in that time.
    Last edited by Barside; 30-05-2012 at 13:36.

  71. #71
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,603

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    I don't think that is true, of course there will be instances where the reason for a drop in morale is a fairly obvious single event but there are other times when it will not be easy to identify as the cause will be a number of small isolated incidents over a long period of time that has resulted in the manager beating down the teams confidence & even if the cause is known should there really be a magic button that puts everything right?

    The is some merit to having additional options to find out why morale is low, possibly some interaction options with staff or club captain to ask for their opinion with a range of feedback including a simple; 'the players do not like you because you spend too much time ranting'.
    Where did that come from? Nobody has suggested a magic button.

  72. #72
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,430

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    You've sort of answered your own question really, the information is to an extent already there & if it is not blindingly obvious what you've done to upset folk then you have to go back over what you have done in the past that could have caused the problem.

    It's a bit like being in a relationship, never ask a women why she's upset.
    You're supposed to know yes heheheh!

    Girls are weird...

  73. #73
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Where did that come from? Nobody has suggested a magic button.
    It was a pre-emptive statement, imo having every single problem listed in a player profile is one step removed from a magic button as it takes away the need to learn what went wrong so that you can try to avoid the same mistake in the future & of course makes putting things right that much easier.

  74. #74
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,603

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    It was a pre-emptive statement, imo having every single problem listed in a player profile is one step removed from a magic button as it takes away the need to learn what went wrong so that you can try to avoid the same mistake in the future & of course makes putting things right that much easier.
    Something should be listed if a real-life manager should know about it. A manager in-game should not need to blunder round trying to create a plausible explanation when a real-life manager would know fairly quickly.

    To me, a manager should roughly know (or have an idea on) why the morale is so high or low, possibly "helped on" by a helpful assistant email ("I note that the players are fairly tense after your team-talks. While it's OK in the league because we smash fellow league teams 10-0 all the time, it might not be a good way of approaching the Europa League."). So some form of "morale explain" should exist in-game. Does it make the game easier? Not really - you just have more information to go on - and it makes the game deeper, since it is your actions to fix the morale issue that are important, and it matches reality better.

  75. #75
    Third Team
    Join Date
    6th December 2005
    Location
    Lamela! Eriksen! Goldado!
    Posts
    9,388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    It was a pre-emptive statement, imo having every single problem listed in a player profile is one step removed from a magic button as it takes away the need to learn what went wrong so that you can try to avoid the same mistake in the future & of course makes putting things right that much easier.
    No one is asking for everything to be listed, just some logical way of figuring out what went wrong and where. At the moment, it's a case of trawling through loads of press/team talks/player interaction and thats BS as far as I'm concerned. As suggested earlier we should have the option to have a conversation with the captain/coach/assman/etc and ask them 'so whats up with x/y/z? why are they sulking?' And that gives the manager a chance to put things right.
    Player interaction is so obviously mashed up, I really don't see why you see the need to defend it. It needs fixing, has done for years.
    An example, recently I was asked in a press conference 'xxxx has again said that he's unhappy with the way you handle team talks, what are you going to do about it?' In fact xxxx hadn't complained about my team talks for 6 months, but lo and behold I look at his profile and it says he's unhappy and had talked to the press. But he hadn't had any bad team talks or had any adverse reaction to a team talk for a looooooooooong time. Basically, the game decided it wanted to spice things up and did so. I'm happy to deal with managing squad morale, but shouldn't have to deal with the complete randomness/brokenness of it.

  76. #76
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Something should be listed if a real-life manager should know about it. A manager in-game should not need to blunder round trying to create a plausible explanation when a real-life manager would know fairly quickly.

    To me, a manager should roughly know (or have an idea on) why the morale is so high or low, possibly "helped on" by a helpful assistant email ("I note that the players are fairly tense after your team-talks. While it's OK in the league because we smash fellow league teams 10-0 all the time, it might not be a good way of approaching the Europa League."). So some form of "morale explain" should exist in-game. Does it make the game easier? Not really - you just have more information to go on - and it makes the game deeper, since it is your actions to fix the morale issue that are important, and it matches reality better.
    The game already has a feature where you get feedback from your assistant on player match performance & this will include potential morale issues, it's not perfect but it is helpful. As I said earlier there is certainly scope for more interaction with key personnel at your club to help identify any issues & this is something that I hope is worked on for future releases.

    Where discussions on morale get side tracked is that people focus on what they perceive to be an irrational, unexplained & immediate drop in morale which from my experience playing FM12 is about as rare as it is in real life, there is without question room for improvement in how performances & personal interactions dictate morale & vice-versa but any potential for discussion on how this can be done is drowned out by folk ranting that morale is broken or that it's illogical or that the game is hard-coded to drop your morale just for kicks.

    If you have a look at the bugs section the manager/player interaction & tones is the least active sub-fora & there are very few threads about odd morale behaviour, now SI have said a number of times that if people see odd morale events in the game they should post in the bugs section & upload save files with details on what they did yet what we see over in that section is that this is the least reported event in FM.

    People are all too happy to rant & rave in GQ but it appears they are less willing to help with any sort of solution or long term development, this game above many others is heavily reliant on community involvement & is usually all the better for it.
    Last edited by Barside; 30-05-2012 at 15:46.

  77. #77
    Amateur
    Join Date
    3rd November 2011
    Location
    I exist only in dreams
    Posts
    37

    Default

    I agree the swing for morale is a bit weird....... i've had similar thing adn the slightest thing you say or do wrong as a manager and thats it... poor morale despite winning the league and cup and givign them a new better contract.. its daft...

  78. #78
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bonna112 View Post
    I agree the swing for morale is a bit weird....... i've had similar thing adn the slightest thing you say or do wrong as a manager and thats it... poor morale despite winning the league and cup and givign them a new better contract.. its daft...
    I really hope that this post was intentionally packed with irony.

  79. #79
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,603

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    The game already has a feature where you get feedback from your assistant on player match performance & this will include potential morale issues, it's not perfect but it is helpful. As I said earlier there is certainly scope for more interaction with key personnel at your club to help identify any issues & this is something that I hope is worked on for future releases.
    The question would be whether a manager innately knows, or relies on their assistant. I think the greatest managers are those who are excellent man-managers and cannot do this without being able to read their players.

    Or put more frankly, if you had no backroom staff, including no assistant, a manager should be able to (somewhat?) read a player's morale drops and the reasoning behind them.

    Therefore there is an argument that the morale explanations should not be delivered through assistant advice, but placed on, say, the player's profile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Where discussions on morale get side tracked is that people focus on what they perceive to be an irrational, unexplained & immediate drop in morale which from my experience playing FM12 is about as rare as it is in real life, there is without question room for improvement in how performances & personal interactions dictate morale & vice-versa but any potential for discussion on how this can be done is drowned out by folk ranting that morale is broken or that it's illogical or that the game is hard-coded to drop your morale just for kicks.
    It's not always ranting and people calling the game illogical are not necessarily wrong.

    If something is perceived to be wrong, then there is a misunderstanding and that could easily be the fault of the game.

    After all, if wwfan (an expert) needs to come into a thread to explain, then it's a sign that there is something wrong with the way the game is displaying information (or not displaying adequate information). The best games are self-documenting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    If you have a look at the bugs section the manager/player interaction & tones is the least active sub-fora & there are very few threads about odd morale behaviour, now SI have said a number of times that if people see odd morale events in the game they should post in the bugs section & upload save files with details on what they did yet what we see over in that section is that this is the least reported event in FM.
    Not really relevant though, right? Maybe there are just one or two things wrong with interaction and tones. Maybe there are too many bugs that nobody is bothered to post them. There's plenty of reasons why two different forums have different numbers of threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    People are all too happy to rant & rave in GQ but it appears they are less willing to help with any sort of solution or long term development, this game above many others is heavily reliant on community involvement & is usually all the better for it.
    Anyone who raises what they perceive to be an issue is helping to improve the game.

    Anyone who claims something is illogical isn't necessarily wrong.

    If the game is hard to understand or seems illogical, there's an argument for improving the level of detail around the feature to promote understanding. It all depends on the level of information that is realistically available to a real-life manager, of course.

  80. #80
    Third Team
    Join Date
    6th December 2005
    Location
    Lamela! Eriksen! Goldado!
    Posts
    9,388

    Default

    It should also be pointed out that anyone who says player interaction (including morale) isn't broken and in need of an overhaul is deluding themselves. SI don't need me to fill up a bug forum. They need to go back to square one with player/press interaction and start over.

  81. #81
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edgar555 View Post
    It should also be pointed out that anyone who says player interaction (including morale) isn't broken and in need of an overhaul is deluding themselves. SI don't need me to fill up a bug forum. They need to go back to square one with player/press interaction and start over.
    The reason why posting in the bugs forum & uploading is important is that SI cannot hope to reproduce every possible scenario related to morale, they just don't have the resources to simulate the number of active games required to cover so many eventualities, this is why providing saves is so useful & will only serve to help speed up any tweaks & adjustments to improve the feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    The question would be whether a manager innately knows, or relies on their assistant. I think the greatest managers are those who are excellent man-managers and cannot do this without being able to read their players.

    Or put more frankly, if you had no backroom staff, including no assistant, a manager should be able to (somewhat?) read a player's morale drops and the reasoning behind them.

    Therefore there is an argument that the morale explanations should not be delivered through assistant advice, but placed on, say, the player's profile.
    Just going to pick up on this point as everything else is tit for tat stuff.

    You mention that the very best managers tend to be very good man-managers & on that we are in agreement, the difficulty is having this represented in the game as surely you cannot just give the user an ability to read a player instantly.

    In the interest of separating the wheat from the chaff player interaction/morale will have to be somewhat cryptic & maybe even a little confusing at first but once the black arts of player psychology are mastered by being able to pick up where the information is spread in the game & how it is delivered on screen you then have a better chance of keeping morale on an even keel.
    Last edited by Barside; 30-05-2012 at 19:45.

  82. #82
    Tactics and Match Engine Moderator
    Join Date
    3rd December 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,244

    Default

    After all, if wwfan (an expert) needs to come into a thread to explain, then it's a sign that there is something wrong with the way the game is displaying information (or not displaying adequate information). The best games are self-documenting.
    This takes us into very tricky territory. In FM12, I have never had an issue keeping squad morale high, generally across the board, but certainly for the majority of the players. One element of this is winning matches, but another element is man and media management. However, many others have illustrated their total failure in keeping morale high.

    Based on my experiences, it is possible to maintain morale at a good average across the squad. Based on others' experienes it is hard to do. However, as it is possible, we have to reject the hypothesis that the morale system is fundamentally broken. The questions are 'is it too hard to keep morale high' and 'if so, what should be done about it?'

    x42bn6 suggests more in-game documentation to help users work out why morale suddenly falls, arguing that 'a manager in-game should not need to blunder round trying to create a plausible explanation when a real-life manager would know fairly quickly.' I don't agree with that. In my experience as a management researcher, I would argue that examples of a manager recognising exactly what the problems with staff morale are and being able to quickly fix them are somewhere between rare and non-existent. I'd argue that FM has got this pretty much spot on from a real world perspective.

    However, we then more into a different conceptual argument. Is the way morale is modeled in FM good game design? Further, is FM a game or a simulation? If it is conceptually a management simulation, I'd be prepared to argue that it is still too easy to keep morale high. In real life, morale can drop like a stone and can be very difficult to rebuild. If conceptually a game, then perhaps a different approach is needed, a step-by-step method of generating good squad morale.

    I know which way I'd lean, but I'm not arrogant enough to claim it is the best way or that another model wouldn't be better. However, I don't think bleating about specific examples is helpful.

  83. #83
    Amateur
    Join Date
    15th July 2011
    Posts
    45

    Default

    Want to share some experiences about morale here.

    *** Story begins ***
    First of all, I don't play cleanly and ALWAYS create a superplayer Messi-like player to my team. This is how I would like to play because of my obsession in a perfect player.
    I hope this does not undermine my experience.
    Of course I have played cleanly, but really become bored whether I lose or win, since my obsession in perfection.

    Recently I managed an expected midtable team, Lazio, having won 8 out of 9 games and draw 1 against Inter. The next game was against H.Tel Aviv. There was no press conferences.
    I thought having won recently will continue and made me not prepare for the match.
    My style is to have two squads of 11 players so I sent my second squad of 'weaker' players.
    It's just press continue
    What happened was within 10 minutes my team lose 0-2 due to fluke goals.
    Therefore I went attacking mentality and direct passing since about 40-50 minutes and changes 3 players (including one superhuman player). Starting from 60-min mark, overload mentality.
    Well, the result is 0-3, at away. Morale drops from superb to okay/fairly poor level.

    Team talk is (roughly) :
    I expect to win
    I expect better second half
    (Aggresively) losing those matches are unacceptable.

    The next game, I put more pressure to the team, it's away against Chievo. I put my strongest team expect the team to win and losing 1-2... I forgot the details about the match, but what I remember is I put some even more pressure, blaming Klose in the public in press conferences.
    Morale was at poor/very poor level.

    Then I won against Cagliari 2-1 starting to learn my mistake. In that game I went quite cautious since I know that putting the team into pressure by giving attacking mentality would make my team slump even more. I told the team I still having faith with them and praised them at the end of the game.

    Morale recovered one step up until I beat Roma 4-0 the next game, telling the team to relax, I don't care what your result is. Go and play what you are capable of (your natural game).

    It's not even superb anymore even after 4-0 win, but I get a decent run afterwards and everyone's morale recover one by one


    *** Story ends ***


    Lesson learnt (about morale, there are others I learnt) :
    1. Putting too much pressure in the team is the slippery slope when defeat comes.
    2. When the defeat comes, it is likely to cause multiple defeats if the first one is not handled correctly. (I was lucky to have the 2-1 win)
    3. The way to recover from that is not expecting the win but to trust them. (Imagine as a player)
    4. A win does not recover the morale instantly, it takes 4 to 5 wins.

    All of those makes sense in real life, isn't it?

  84. #84
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,603

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    This takes us into very tricky territory. In FM12, I have never had an issue keeping squad morale high, generally across the board, but certainly for the majority of the players. One element of this is winning matches, but another element is man and media management. However, many others have illustrated their total failure in keeping morale high.

    Based on my experiences, it is possible to maintain morale at a good average across the squad. Based on others' experienes it is hard to do. However, as it is possible, we have to reject the hypothesis that the morale system is fundamentally broken. The questions are 'is it too hard to keep morale high' and 'if so, what should be done about it?'

    x42bn6 suggests more in-game documentation to help users work out why morale suddenly falls, arguing that 'a manager in-game should not need to blunder round trying to create a plausible explanation when a real-life manager would know fairly quickly.' I don't agree with that. In my experience as a management researcher, I would argue that examples of a manager recognising exactly what the problems with staff morale are and being able to quickly fix them are somewhere between rare and non-existent. I'd argue that FM has got this pretty much spot on from a real world perspective.
    In the corporate world, I think it's something like 60-70% of employees who are unhappy with the level of recognition of their achievements (can't remember which study I read though). However, you have to remember that football managers at the top level have a whole team of staff, including psychologists, to help them. In addition, they may well get dialogue with the players themselves, possibly via the team's captain or representative.

    Nor does it necessarily imply a manager needs to know immediately, nor does it suggest a manager needs to quickly fix them. In practice, it could be a slight annoyance that eventually builds up to annoying levels. In practice, it might only show up when the manager does a monthly talk of sorts with the team captain. In practice, the manager might only be able to read this over time.

    However, with the OP, the implication has been that the OP has given wrong team-talks ("too demanding") for a while, so when morale finally slips, it slips a lot. If team-talks were too demanding, why would the players have Superb morale beforehand? The euphoria of winning would quickly wear off as the OP looks like he could easily go an entire league season unbeaten with a goal difference in the +150 to +200 region.

  85. #85
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th March 2007
    Location
    Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.
    Posts
    6,603

    Default

    There's precedent, anyway. If you do a particularly-bad team-talk, then you can get Slt icons along the lines of "Unhappy with recent team-talks given by the manager" or something to that effect. Which suggests that it is possible for a manager or the combined management team to gauge a player's overall happiness in some detail.

  86. #86

    Default

    This is EXACTLY the issue I was talking about after 12.2.2 came out. Top of the league and unbeaten with Liverpool in the first season and suddenly everyone became depressed because of one defeat, and it was impossible to make them happy again.

  87. #87
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    11th November 2007
    Location
    Germoney
    Posts
    1,759

    Default

    This looks more like a genuine bug to me rather than an inherent "feature" of the morale system. Playing Munich, I've had my fair share of unbeaten runs, though not quite as excessive as the ones in the opening post. One being abruptly ended by going down 1-4 in Piräus in the CL. But I have yet to see anything like this on FM 2012 myself. Not that I wanted to, heh.

    I also have a hard time imagining any assistant manager screwing up your squad this badly. AI managers on all levels of success screw up themselves accordingly to their personal traits, it's part of the game's set-up, which has it that in-game data tries to roughly emulate human behavior. But you can hand over talks and press conferences to your ass man for a reason - and unless he's a complete monkey, I cannot see anything like this happening. I often let the press conferences handle my assistant myself, in particular during bog standard Bundesliga match days.

  88. #88
    Amateur
    Join Date
    27th February 2003
    Location
    Richmond, N.Yorkshire, England
    Posts
    407

    Default

    I've always thought that the loss and gain of morale was too severe, both ways, and that morale should be gained and lost at a more steady pace.

    And yes, there is a lack of ingame info on how a player lost morale.

    I always use team meetings when i can, i always do press conferences and am ccareful with teamtalks because thy all affect morale in a big way......the thing is this isn't fun for me and i expect isnt fun for a lot of people........and we all play games for fun...right?

    Remember the majority of FM customers will be casual gamers who, no doubt, would like more info on why morale just dropped massively in wierd situations, and if morale massively affects the game experience, then the game loses some of its fun (imo). Not everyone is a FM expert and understands every aspect of the game, especially the non and poorly explained parts of the game.

  89. #89
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    17th July 2008
    Posts
    1,081

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellisio View Post
    Deflated yes, suicidal no. Don't get me wrong i'd expect low morale after a defeat like that but come on, for the entire team to have abysmal morale like that is crazy. Once again this happens after a run of games being unbeaten, I think it was 9 this time. Then we go on a run of 4 games without a win and the first game after this one we are drawing 1-1 away from home at Roma at half time, once again the team has no confidence?!

    This happens every single season and is becoming tiresome. The morale system is far too tempremental.
    Well if you take into account the teams playing and the result, id say the drop in morale is just about right! now lets put this into context.

    I mean, juventus is always going to be favorite to win against Galatasaray and specially on their own turf. They were pressured to win at home after 4:1 away leg disaster, and they didn't manage to get a goal, let alone get through the next round.

    Don't know what was the initial team talk but if it wasn't "no pressure just play your own game" i bet players got afraid to touch the ball not to make a mistake and after they didn't meet the expectations - they simply fell apart by the end of the match.

  90. #90
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    17th July 2008
    Posts
    1,081

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edgar555 View Post
    No one is asking for everything to be listed, just some logical way of figuring out what went wrong and where. At the moment, it's a case of trawling through loads of press/team talks/player interaction and thats BS as far as I'm concerned. As suggested earlier we should have the option to have a conversation with the captain/coach/assman/etc and ask them 'so whats up with x/y/z? why are they sulking?' And that gives the manager a chance to put things right.
    Player interaction is so obviously mashed up, I really don't see why you see the need to defend it. It needs fixing, has done for years.
    An example, recently I was asked in a press conference 'xxxx has again said that he's unhappy with the way you handle team talks, what are you going to do about it?' In fact xxxx hadn't complained about my team talks for 6 months, but lo and behold I look at his profile and it says he's unhappy and had talked to the press. But he hadn't had any bad team talks or had any adverse reaction to a team talk for a looooooooooong time. Basically, the game decided it wanted to spice things up and did so. I'm happy to deal with managing squad morale, but shouldn't have to deal with the complete randomness/brokenness of it.
    I was working as a journalist and was following top tier in my country and from that experience id say game got it really well there If it happened in press conference. it is quite common that journalists bring things up from past, specially if it is some controversy, and especially when there are no other topics to talk about. it could be completely miss timed question that creates WTF moment (at this times managers usually decline to comment which you should do in game as well), but there are those managers who get upset fairly easy and react wrong getting into the argument possibly lowering morale of player(s).

  91. #91
    Third Team
    Join Date
    6th December 2005
    Location
    Lamela! Eriksen! Goldado!
    Posts
    9,388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MBarbaric View Post
    I was working as a journalist and was following top tier in my country and from that experience id say game got it really well there If it happened in press conference. it is quite common that journalists bring things up from past, specially if it is some controversy, and especially when there are no other topics to talk about. it could be completely miss timed question that creates WTF moment (at this times managers usually decline to comment which you should do in game as well), but there are those managers who get upset fairly easy and react wrong getting into the argument possibly lowering morale of player(s).
    I get that, I just don't think it's applicable in this case. When my players did have a problem with my team talks it was dealt with. 6 months later they ask 'xxxxx has again said he's unhappy.........'

  92. #92
    Amateur
    Join Date
    3rd November 2011
    Location
    I exist only in dreams
    Posts
    37

    Default

    The morale is an issue...... as other have now said and many of them at that I experienced similar thigns as suzy said a few replies earlier..

    into season 8 pr 9 after a couple of seasons winning everything with Newcastle and having team morale pretty much as high as you can get .. losing 1 game or the terrible replies offered to press confrences can seriously break morale..

    I wouldnt mind and yes if you lose a game morale should be affected slightly but be able to regain it after some more wins but thats not the case...

    It seems far easier to lose morale than it is to gain it..

    There is also the suggestions above which are very good to include more interaction with captains or actual players where you can address issues far better....... I've had players who have been uphappy due to lack of gameplay etc but you then play them in 10 games in a row and they are still unhappy.. its stupid..

    There should be more options to chastise / praise players and there should be more interaction with your assistant who can advise on whether or not to say certain things.. EG your assistant thinks you should have a 1-to-1 with playr X and playr X responds well to stern authoritative talks.. or responds to calm assurances...

    stuff like that....

    There is so much you can do with this area but it looks like it's just thrown together at the last minute just so they can say its included in the game.

  93. #93

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    I don't think that the morale system has been tweaked too far in general. Mostly, it functions just alright. But watch the date of that Juventus-Parma match; it's the 1st of April. He is likely to be in the last 10 league matches of the season, and when you go into that period things like this happens frequently.

    Too frequently and too severly in my opinion.

    There is no doubt in my mind that these incredible swings in morale and sudden loss of confidence, extreme nervousness and/or complacency, are hard-coded to begin in the 28th league match. 27th you're fine, 28th and all hell breaks loose.
    Noticed that myself. 10-15 points on top, in amazing form beating teams 6-0 all around for fun. Epic season obviously, then as the 'final run in' comes along, despite the massive massive points lead, everyone seems to crack under pressure (playing nervously) and every game is labelled as the 'biggest game of the season'. Seriously? Get out of it -_-

  94. #94
    Amateur
    Join Date
    31st October 2009
    Posts
    284

    Default

    Meh, just do what i did, have a team meeting and wind up with the captain going at it with one of the squad players yelling "If you've got a problem with me why don't you just say it to my face?" Everyone else on the team thought it was fantastic, bought morale right back up... ....

  95. #95
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st May 2007
    Posts
    264

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MBarbaric View Post
    Well if you take into account the teams playing and the result, id say the drop in morale is just about right! now lets put this into context.

    I mean, juventus is always going to be favorite to win against Galatasaray and specially on their own turf. They were pressured to win at home after 4:1 away leg disaster, and they didn't manage to get a goal, let alone get through the next round.

    Don't know what was the initial team talk but if it wasn't "no pressure just play your own game" i bet players got afraid to touch the ball not to make a mistake and after they didn't meet the expectations - they simply fell apart by the end of the match.
    That's just sounds like one big contradiction. You are saying to tell the players "no pressure" when clearly there is a huge amount of pressure. Juventus at home to Galatasaray the fans will be expecting victory as you have said. This is another flaw about the game, any Juventus players would be under huge pressure every single game to win, it's the nature and stature of the club, yet the option is there to tell the players no pressure when we have just been knocked out of the Champions League and got battered in the first leg. Baffles me.

    My problem isn't with morale alone, it's the fact that a similar series of events happens EVERY SINGLE SEASON. I go on a mega run of wins, top of the league, morale sky high, then suddenly I start hitting the woodwork arond 3/4 times a game, morale suffers a MASSIVE hit and we go on a losing streak and all players are "playing without confidence" from the first defeat? Absolute madness.

  96. #96
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,430

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellisio View Post
    That's just sounds like one big contradiction. You are saying to tell the players "no pressure" when clearly there is a huge amount of pressure. Juventus at home to Galatasaray the fans will be expecting victory as you have said. This is another flaw about the game, any Juventus players would be under huge pressure every single game to win, it's the nature and stature of the club, yet the option is there to tell the players no pressure when we have just been knocked out of the Champions League and got battered in the first leg. Baffles me.

    My problem isn't with morale alone, it's the fact that a similar series of events happens EVERY SINGLE SEASON. I go on a mega run of wins, top of the league, morale sky high, then suddenly I start hitting the woodwork arond 3/4 times a game, morale suffers a MASSIVE hit and we go on a losing streak and all players are "playing without confidence" from the first defeat? Absolute madness.
    I would be interested in knowing how you deal with this pressure in your team talks.

    You must be aware that if you tell your players that you expect them to win/perform, it WILL result in a massive loss of morale and confidence if they do not. That's how the game works. That's how psychology works. Your job as a manager is -not- to praise wins and criticise defeats, it is to maintain high confidence and focus.

    In other words, the morale of a team will be influenced by two extremes; nervousness and complacency. When you push them, you reduce complacency but increase nervousness. When you pull them (up), you reduce nervousness and increase complacency. In the middle of those two is the zone of focused confidence, where you want to be. That is all the team talks do, just forget about the green arrows and the "looking motivated" or "fired up" nonsense - that's just a smoke-screen. Your players can be both nervous and complacent even though the motivation gadget tells you they are fired up.

    Once your players are shooting too early, regularly hits the woodwork or an opponent, when they back off a challenge or just stand around doing nothing... then you know that you have either put too much pressure on them or too little. In the former case, given that you are drawing or behind and that morale is still good, comfort/encourage them in the break. If you are in the lead, tell them you are displeased (but not necessarily aggressively). In the latter case, the hairdryer treatment may be the only way to fix things.

    Based on your description in the quote above, I'd say you fail to notice the signs of the team losing it under the pressure in the first half, then tell them to sort it out at half-time. You then have a 10-minute window after the break to score, and if you do not the whole team shatters. You then rage at them after the match, and before the next match you tell them to go ahead and win this for the fans or expect a win as usual. The result of that, of course, is a disaster. If my assumptions here are wrong, please tell me.

  97. #97
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st May 2007
    Posts
    264

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    I would be interested in knowing how you deal with this pressure in your team talks.

    You must be aware that if you tell your players that you expect them to win/perform, it WILL result in a massive loss of morale and confidence if they do not. That's how the game works. That's how psychology works. Your job as a manager is -not- to praise wins and criticise defeats, it is to maintain high confidence and focus.

    In other words, the morale of a team will be influenced by two extremes; nervousness and complacency. When you push them, you reduce complacency but increase nervousness. When you pull them (up), you reduce nervousness and increase complacency. In the middle of those two is the zone of focused confidence, where you want to be. That is all the team talks do, just forget about the green arrows and the "looking motivated" or "fired up" nonsense - that's just a smoke-screen. Your players can be both nervous and complacent even though the motivation gadget tells you they are fired up.

    Once your players are shooting too early, regularly hits the woodwork or an opponent, when they back off a challenge or just stand around doing nothing... then you know that you have either put too much pressure on them or too little. In the former case, given that you are drawing or behind and that morale is still good, comfort/encourage them in the break. If you are in the lead, tell them you are displeased (but not necessarily aggressively). In the latter case, the hairdryer treatment may be the only way to fix things.

    Based on your description in the quote above, I'd say you fail to notice the signs of the team losing it under the pressure in the first half, then tell them to sort it out at half-time. You then have a 10-minute window after the break to score, and if you do not the whole team shatters. You then rage at them after the match, and before the next match you tell them to go ahead and win this for the fans or expect a win as usual. The result of that, of course, is a disaster. If my assumptions here are wrong, please tell me.
    I know how the game works and I know how team talks work. I've played the game every year since CM 97/98.

    My issue is that morale is far far too sensitive. Every single season we go on a mega run of games unbeaten, usually all wins, morale is through the roof. We then either lose a game or draw a game and suddenly morale is lowest of the low. I do NOT give the hairdryer treatment and basically never tell the team I expect them to win unless we are evens favourites and even then I say it calmy. What's wrong with that? It's perfectly understandable.

    A modern say example is Sir Alex at United. Everyone knows his management style yet when have we seen United in the past 10-15 years ever have a shocking set of results over a prolongued period? When have we ever seen United's players playing without any form of confidence and swagger?

    Sorry, it just doesn't add up to me.

  98. #98
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st May 2007
    Posts
    264

    Default

    Oh, and as far as hitting the woodwork goes I do this most games reglardless of what is said. This has been raised by a fair few people. Hitting the woodwork 3/4/5 times per game is far from normal and again this is linked to morale form what I can tell.

  99. #99
    Tactics and Match Engine Moderator
    Join Date
    3rd December 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,244

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellisio View Post
    I know how the game works and I know how team talks work. I've played the game every year since CM 97/98.

    My issue is that morale is far far too sensitive. Every single season we go on a mega run of games unbeaten, usually all wins, morale is through the roof. We then either lose a game or draw a game and suddenly morale is lowest of the low. I do NOT give the hairdryer treatment and basically never tell the team I expect them to win unless we are evens favourites and even then I say it calmy. What's wrong with that? It's perfectly understandable.

    A modern say example is Sir Alex at United. Everyone knows his management style yet when have we seen United in the past 10-15 years ever have a shocking set of results over a prolongued period? When have we ever seen United's players playing without any form of confidence and swagger?

    Sorry, it just doesn't add up to me.
    Might Sir Alex just be a better manager than you?

    I never have prolonged periods of bad form and I never struggle to keep morale reasonably high across the board. So, it must be something you are doing.

  100. #100
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th August 2007
    Posts
    8,473

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellisio View Post
    Oh, and as far as hitting the woodwork goes I do this most games reglardless of what is said. This has been raised by a fair few people. Hitting the woodwork 3/4/5 times per game is far from normal and again this is linked to morale form what I can tell.
    Chances are that's more of a tactical issue than anything to do with team morale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellisio View Post
    I know how the game works and I know how team talks work. I've played the game every year since CM 97/98.

    My issue is that morale is far far too sensitive. Every single season we go on a mega run of games unbeaten, usually all wins, morale is through the roof. We then either lose a game or draw a game and suddenly morale is lowest of the low. I do NOT give the hairdryer treatment and basically never tell the team I expect them to win unless we are evens favourites and even then I say it calmy. What's wrong with that? It's perfectly understandable.

    A modern say example is Sir Alex at United. Everyone knows his management style yet when have we seen United in the past 10-15 years ever have a shocking set of results over a prolongued period? When have we ever seen United's players playing without any form of confidence and swagger?

    Sorry, it just doesn't add up to me.
    After Man City lost to Arsenal United were comfortably clear & had what appeared to be a fairly easy run to the title yet they still managed to miss out thanks to some lacklustre performances or poor decision making, their performance in the Derby certainly lacked confidence & swagger.

    Had either Manchester clubs drop in form happened in FM there would have been cries of morale bug & I suppose the same could be said of what happened to Spurs' results after January.
    Last edited by Barside; 08-06-2012 at 10:31.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts