Aaron Ramsey - PA Spoilers

**davehanson** · 12-05-2012 23:53

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

Is that a fact?

Well, the Wenger part is a fact, hence I started the sentence with 'In fact'.

The more or less games part is my opinion, as I started it by saying 'I would say'.

See the difference there?

**Eugene Tyson** · 12-05-2012 23:55

I see the difference, but I don't see the facts. I see your interpreations of the facts.

I suspect a lot of youth players got their chance by lack of other options.

**Eugene Tyson** · 12-05-2012 23:57

As I say - there's not really much you can do about it now for the game. There are no more patches.

The best thing to do is bring it up in the Data thread.

I don't agree that he should be hamstrung into a career of a mediocre footballer.

I personally think he has what it takes to be the best. But that's my opinion.

**Barside** · 12-05-2012 23:58

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

Is that a fact?

Not sure about that but is does sound plausible, what I can tell you is the Arsenal fans I know who go to the games are starting to question whether Ramsey will offer enough threat in the attacking third of the pitch & that having seen him play on a more regular basis they are getting the feeling that his is just another nice solid passing midfielder who does the simple things well but can't do much more than that & certainly not when he's put under pressure.

Not sure I'm fully buying that line yet but based on the limited times I've seen him in TV he has looked tidy but rather unspectacular.

**Eugene Tyson** · 12-05-2012 23:58

And I do hope they introduce a new for youth players to be evaluated.

Opportunity for their PA to grow. It's not right it's "set".

**Eugene Tyson** · 12-05-2012 23:59

Or their pa to shrink!

**davehanson** · 13-05-2012 00:00

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

I see the difference, but I don't see the facts. I see your interpreations of the facts.

I suspect a lot of youth players got their chance by lack of other options.

You don't see that Wenger said he would play him less if he had more options?

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 00:02

[QUOTE=Barside;7811975the Arsenal fans I know who go to the games are starting to question whether Ramsey will offer enough threat in the attacking third of the pitch .[/QUOTE]

I was at the emirates 5 times last season. I'm not even an Arsenal fan. But they boo every chance they get. No matter what. WORST fans I've ever come across.

That's my opinion. But I don't see hostility towards the players. I've been to Barca, Real, Inter, AC, LFC, and a few others last season.

What I know is that the Arsenal fans are so harsh on the team. They feel the pressure as soon as they walk out. They should feel relaxed and have a 12th man.

**Barside** · 13-05-2012 00:04

If a player cannot handle pressure he will never be a great player.

Thanks for handing me that one.

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 00:04

Originally Posted by davehanson

You don't see that Wenger said he would play him less if he had more options?

And again, if there were more options, how much harder would he have worked or progressed?

It's the fact that players were out and he was the best option at the time. And he's now a brilliant option for the team.

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 00:05

Originally Posted by Barside

If a player cannot handle pressure he will never be a great player.

Thanks for handing me that one.

What??????

**davehanson** · 13-05-2012 00:07

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

And again, if there were more options, how much harder would he have worked or progressed?

It's the fact that players were out and he was the best option at the time. And he's now a brilliant option for the team.

Well, again, we are going to disagree. He is so out of form at the moment, looks a yard short of pace and doesn't, at the moment, seem to make the quick decisions correctly. And, why would he try harder if there were more options? The worlds greatest players give their all every game no matter what.

**Barside** · 13-05-2012 00:12

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

Or their pa to shrink!

PA doesn't need to shrink, teh game just needs to make better use of negative influences to ensure there are an adequate number of flops & for the AI to stop buying players based on a combination of rep & PA.

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 00:13

But a PA of 200 does not = a CA of 200

Nor does a PA of 170 - a CA of 170

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 00:14

Originally Posted by davehanson

Well, again, we are going to disagree. He is so out of form at the moment, looks a yard short of pace and doesn't, at the moment, seem to make the quick decisions correctly. And, why would he try harder if there were more options? The worlds greatest players give their all every game no matter what.

Wright didn't, nor did Platt, or Luca Toni. Or Andri Shcevenko.

Let's see - who else - oh Stanley Mathews - well over 30 before recognition.

**Barside** · 13-05-2012 00:18

Remind me, when was WW2? How old would Sir Stanley Matthews have been during that time?

As I pointed out earlier he didn't receive any honours until his 30's because they didn't exists before then & if you knew your football history you would understand why he doesn't have anywhere near the number of league titles or cup winner's medals you'd expect of a player with his talent to have.

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 00:20

Stanley Mathews is a bad example based on whatever criteria you hold players to be.

I've cited many other players. Go pick on them.

**davehanson** · 13-05-2012 00:20

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

Wright didn't, nor did Platt, or Luca Toni. Or Andri Shcevenko.

Let's see - who else - oh Stanley Mathews - well over 30 before recognition.

Sorry, I am completely lost now. What in gods name are you on about now?

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 00:24

Let's get back on topic.

Ramsey is 21. He's got every chance of becoming a world class player than anyone else who plays regular first team football for a club of of top stature.

**Barside** · 13-05-2012 00:25

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

Let's get back on topic.

Ramsey is 21. He's got every chance of becoming a world class player than anyone else who plays regular first team football for a club of of top stature.

So why is he the only one who has a -10 PA? Either other players need to be brought up to his level or he needs to be pegged back to theirs.

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

Stanley Mathews is a bad example based on whatever criteria you hold players to be.

I've cited many other players. Go pick on them.

You mentioned Sir Stanley Matthews.

You'll be pleased to know that I am no longer bothering with you.

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 00:26

Oh no! Whatever will I do?

**davehanson** · 13-05-2012 00:33

I'll tell you who is probably the most high-profile simlar-ish type of player to Ramsey that we can use. Ozil.

Okay, so Ozil is a few months older than Ramsey, but has achieved so much more in his career to date than Ramsey. Why is he not a -10? Why does Ramsey (potentially) have a higher PA than him?

**Nocuous** · 13-05-2012 00:38

Personally I'd give Ramsey a PA of 160.

I'd also like to point out that davehanson is speaking a lot of sense, and that various other members are speaking the exact opposition of that.

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 00:40

In that regard why do you hold Ozil to such high esteem?

Ozil? What's he done?

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 00:41

Originally Posted by Nocuous

Personally I'd give Ramsey a PA of 160.

I'd also like to point out that davehanson is speaking a lot of sense, and that various other members are speaking the exact opposition of that.

Nope. Incorrect.

**Nocuous** · 13-05-2012 00:43

Ozil is idolised by Real Madrid fans, who are notoriously incredibly hard to please. He's had over 20 assists for 4 seasons straight. He's one of the best players in the World. Ramsey is barely a Premier League standard player.

**davehanson** · 13-05-2012 00:45

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

In that regard why do you hold Ozil to such high esteem?

Ozil? What's he done?

Are you kidding?

World cup semi-final. One of the best players of the 2010 world cup. Played in every single game at the world cup. Scored goals at the world cup and assisted numerous times. Was nominated for the golden ball at the world cup.

This year has won the La Liga with Madrid. Has more assists in Spain than anyone else and was on the shortlist of Ballon D'or.

Quite simply his performances in the games he has played have been outstanding.

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 00:47

yeh - something at Wales that Ramsey won't get to experience.

**davehanson** · 13-05-2012 00:50

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

yeh - something at Wales that Ramsey won't get to experience.

So why is he not doing it for Arsenal either?

**Bababui** · 13-05-2012 00:57

Originally Posted by Barside

Also & this is aimed at both you & davehanson, since when did the definition of a players ability boil down to their stats? As has been mentioned in the Moneyball thread football is probably one of the least stat friendly sports out there & all this comparing of player X at 21 to player Y at 21 based on goals/appearances is if I'm honest quite laughable.

Ramsey has bags of natural talent but a -10 PA player? Nope, -9 at best & even then I'm probably being rather generous.

Football is not one of the least stat friendly sports out there. Its simply that the right stats have yet to be invented. Baseball had been around 100 years before some of the modern stats were invented.

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 00:58

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 00:59

Originally Posted by davehanson

So why is he not doing it for Arsenal either?

Same stats as Xavi and Iiestisa...

**davehanson** · 13-05-2012 01:02

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

Same stats as Xavi and Iiestisa...

Oh lord. Have you been drinking? I mean I have had 3 cans, but I can still think correctly.

Are you honestly saying that because Ramsey has played as many games, perhaps even more, than either Xavi or Iniesta at the same age (21), that is the reason, and the sole reason, you are suggesting that he keeps his -10 and deserves to be thought of as a potentially world class player?

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 01:03

I haven't got anything to weigh against him???

At 21 - he's played same and performed same...

**davehanson** · 13-05-2012 01:05

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

I haven't got anything to weigh against him???

At 21 - he's played same and performed same...

How do you know he has performed the same?

I have just given you someone to weigh him against - Ozil. Do that. Use your stats and weigh him against Ozil. I dare you.

**Eugene Tyson** · 13-05-2012 01:16

I've dared you... nothing

**davehanson** · 13-05-2012 01:18

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

I've dared you... nothing

What? What haven't I answered that you have asked?

**Gee_Simpson** · 13-05-2012 01:28

I'm sure Ramsey had been given a fixed PA of 175 after the January update instead of the -10. Can anyone confirm?

**Nocuous** · 13-05-2012 01:28

You're not Welsh by any chance Eugene?

Originally Posted by Gee_Simpson

I'm sure Ramsey had been given a fixed PA of 175 after the January update instead of the -10. Can anyone confirm?

Yeah it's true. Should be even lower in my opinion, but at least they did something about what was a pretty massive mistake.

**davehanson** · 13-05-2012 01:35

Well, I am off to bed now.

But Eugene, if you are struggling to compare Ramsey to Ozil, you could try:

Tomas Muller
Mario Gotze
Toni Kroos
Iker Muniain
Eden Hazard

Any of the above should give you a good idea of how great Ramsey is at this stage of his career. Night.

**Gee_Simpson** · 13-05-2012 01:48

I would have to agree with davehanson & Nocuous etc. regarding Ramsey. I haven't seen the potential in him IRL that his PA in the game suggests he has. Even 175 is too high imo but I guess its opinions at the end of the day.

**x42bn6** · 13-05-2012 02:58

None of this would have happened if PA were ditched as a limit.

**AcidBurn** · 13-05-2012 09:50

Originally Posted by x42bn6

None of this would have happened if PA were ditched as a limit.

For a long time I would have disagreed with you but the more I think about it recently the more I believe that there needs to be big changes in players potentials, not sure what but the current system is too limited.

**Menion** · 13-05-2012 11:06

Stop feeding the troll. He obviously puts more weight to stats which have far too many variables to use as solid evidence.

Will Ramsay become one of the best midfielders of his generation? Doubtfull. He probably won't even be the best midfielder at Arsenal.

As has been said, if he's worthy of -10 then a lot of other players are as well.

**typenamehere** · 14-05-2012 03:06

His -10 rating was due to his injury, personally at Cardiff he was a -9 at best.

**TwinsFan86** · 14-05-2012 09:08

Originally Posted by Gee_Simpson

I'm sure Ramsey had been given a fixed PA of 175 after the January update instead of the -10. Can anyone confirm?

I just looked at it. It's a 175 now, with the January Update database (12.2)

**!.m.!** · 14-05-2012 10:23

Yes. 175. Well nice football chat guys, but the researchers seem to be on top of it.

Besides I would actually prefer fixed PA be scrapped for 'real' players and they all be given a -9, 10 potential. I would like to see the range of - potentials be reduced to a maximum of 20 points so -10 would be from 180-200. This would add a sense of individuality to every new game.

Newgens could be fixed for obvious reasons.

**ilCuoreDiRoma** · 14-05-2012 15:13

Originally Posted by Menion

Stop feeding the troll. He obviously puts more weight to stats which have far too many variables to use as solid evidence.

Will Ramsay become one of the best midfielders of his generation? Doubtfull. He probably won't even be the best midfielder at Arsenal.

As has been said, if he's worthy of -10 then a lot of other players are as well.

this. couldn't have said it better myself

i have no problem with aaron ramsey being a -10. i DO have a problem with ONLY aaron ramsey being a -10

what about the other leagues? how come aaron ramsey gets a -10 but players like federico viviani don't?

-10 guarantees a player future world class status (170+ is good enough to start for any team in the world, even barca). i don't think it should be given to one single player. either give it to several, or don't give it to anyone

**Eugene Tyson** · 14-05-2012 15:48

I do think Ramsey will be a very good midfielder. He's already a starter for one of the best teams in Europe.

What more do you want?

If 170+ is good enough to start at Barca, surely it's good enough to start at Arsenal?

He's not below 170, I tell you that.

**Eugene Tyson** · 14-05-2012 16:06

And I wasn't the one that brought up the other players.

People were saying that he is no Xavi or Iniesta. But he's played roughly the same amount of games for Arsenal at the age of 21 as they did for Barcelona.

He's got some good skills. He's young. And he has a very high potential. If he didn't then he wouldn't be playing first team football at Arsenal, one of the best teams in the world.

**x42bn6** · 14-05-2012 16:35

There's nothing wrong with Eugene's thoughts... He is perhaps just a "little" more optimistic than most of us.

But then again, that comes with the issue that none of us have a crystal ball...

**davehanson** · 14-05-2012 16:36

Is this still going? My word.

No you didn't bring up the case of other players, but you actually still haven't answered if you feel he has shown as much potential in the games he has played as the players I mentioned a few posts up. I don't think he has. I think he is very lucky that Arsenal have a relatively weak midfield (either through players being sold/loaned ala Fabreagas & Asharvin, or out through injury). I think if Arsenal had a stronger midfield then he wouldn't have got half the game time that he did this season. In the games he has played he has looked slow, not good at making decisions when he was put under pressure and quite shy in taking responsibility for trying to put his stamp, for trying to dominate the opposition. To me that is not a sign of a great future player.

On current form and current showing I would argue that he hasn't done enough to warrant anything more than a PA of 160 (which still makes him a good player in the future). If you start bumping him up to 170+ you are getting into the fact that he could be potentially as good as Mascherano, Busquets or even Xavi Alonso are at the moment, and I would say he has shown nothing to suggest he has that kind of potential ability.

**Ranquelme** · 14-05-2012 16:41

Stats and performances are two different things. Arshavin was Arsenal's top assists player a couple of seasons back depsite being woeful for the most part. But most people know this

**Bababui** · 14-05-2012 17:42

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

I do think Ramsey will be a very good midfielder. He's already a starter for one of the best teams in Europe.

What more do you want?

If 170+ is good enough to start at Barca, surely it's good enough to start at Arsenal?

He's not below 170, I tell you that.

Originally Posted by x42bn6

There's nothing wrong with Eugene's thoughts...

Until the above.

Mr Tyson has still yet to articulate what specific skills Ramsey has that merit him having a -10 potential in relation to the rest of the footballing world.

**FrazT** · 14-05-2012 19:22

This thread is just going round in circles now, so keep on topic, without the personal comments or it will be closed.

**ilCuoreDiRoma** · 15-05-2012 00:15

Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson

He's got some good skills. He's young. And he has a very high potential. If he didn't then he wouldn't be playing first team football at Arsenal, one of the best teams in the world.

spoiler:
so do players like pjanic, de jong (ajax), and the bender brothers. so why does ramsey get a -10 whereas pjanic gets a locked PA of a mere 160

why do thiago and eriksen get -9 and ramsey get -10?

again, i'm not saying ramsey's overrated, i think he's as talented as the likes of pjanic/dejong/thiago/eriksen. i'm just asking why ramsey gets singled out as the only player in the game with a -10 PA. if more players were given -10, or if no players were given the -10, we wouldn't be having this discussion

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