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Thread: Aaron Ramsey - PA Spoilers

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    Default Aaron Ramsey - PA Spoilers

    Why does he have such a high PA on this game? His PA is 198 which he has reached in my save at the age of just 24 and is now the best player in the world. How is it even possible?

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    He's -10, that means he gets a random PA between 170 and 200 at the start of each save.

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    He doesn't always have it that high potential of 175 on mine.

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    -10 was allocated to him because of the fact that he has spent such a long time out injured and so the researchers couldn't determine a definite PA. This means that he will be given a PA from 170-200 upon starting a new game.

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    Ok fair enough. Thanks for the quick responses guys.

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    spoiler:
    i still find it unfair how he's the only player in FM with a PA of -10. even arsenal fans don't think he's THAT good

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    Pretty sure since the transfer update patch he has been given a fixed PA
    Last edited by Pebder88; 11-05-2012 at 21:42. Reason: spelling

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    That he was ever given -10 is ridiculous. The Arsenal user can train that guy into the best CM in the world, which he clearly never would have been. He's got a worse PA than Bale now(?who's PA is too high aswell I admit).

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    So how do you guys play him??
    I use him mostly as an Advanced Playmaker Support and rarely as a CM S/A but with little success.
    Has any of you got his attributes to shoot up?
    I'm in season 3 btw.

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    Nocuous

    The reasearchers are volunteers who do the job under guidelines and information/ review of the head researchers , so dont need this type of personal attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrazT View Post
    Nocuous

    The reasearchers are volunteers who do the job under guidelines and information/ review of the head researchers , so dont need this type of personal attack.
    He's being a tool on another thread as well. Just my opinion but I dont think these kinds of people should be allowed to stay here and get away with being abusive.

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    The reasearchers are volunteers who do the job under guidelines and information/ review of the head researchers , so dont need this type of personal attack.
    You've sacked researchers in the past haven't you? The Portuguese guy who made To Madeira. The Lazio/Cisco Roma researcher that also made up some players. So surely you're able to get rid of a researcher when they don't do their job properly. To be honest I think SI would do well to make the research team in general a more professional operation (obviously not paying each individual researcher, but perhaps hold them to higher standards, and have a team to iron out any mistakes they might make). I'm sorry but the mere fact that Ramsey can become the best player in the World on FM 12 just really should not be tolerated.

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    I am sure that reserachers are replaced if they break the guidelines given,, but much of their other input about player attributes and potential is a judgement, based on their opinion, which is usually given becaus of an in depth knowledge of the team and players involved. This opinion is already seen by other researchers and SI staff so unless it is quite blatantly an error, will be subject to one users opinion over another- so who is to say what is right and wrong, if it opinion only and not a fact? If users think that any opinion is incorrect, they can raise this in the Data Issues thread along with documentation to support their view and this will be considered by the research team at review time. By all means raise your concerns about any issue, but please do not reduce it to personal criticism of the researchers

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    With the case of Aaron Ramsey, he was seen before his leg break as a -10 PA player. Potentially a world beater. Then the leg break at Stoke happened and for the next edition he was given the same rating, simply because nobody can really say how he would recover as by that time he hadn't played. You can't make changes just on assumptions, you need to see the player play. Now that he's returned and played more often, it has been concluded that he is less likely to become a world class CM and his PA has been adjusted accordingly. That's how I see the whole thing.

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    I'd argue that his original -10 PA was very optimistic before the injury.

    This is an unqualified subjective opinion but I do tend to think that the English club researchers above all other nations in the game & in particular those of the top teams can get a little carried away when assessing the PA of young players, the problem is that it is almost impossible to call people out on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocuous View Post
    I'm sorry but the mere fact that Ramsey can become the best player in the World on FM 12 just really should not be tolerated.
    Why can't he become the best player in the world? He's playing for one of the best teams in England. He's young. Has a very bright future.

    Nobody here, or could possibly know what his future has in store for him.

    There have been players that didn't have a burst in their Curent Ability in the past. Ian Wright and David Platt both blossomed around 23 or 24 years of age.

    It would be a tragedy if young players currently getting first team football in the best teams in the world NEVER had the potential to become the best players in the world.

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    The problem is that in FM the negative influences that prevent many players from reaching their early promise have very little impact, no one is saying NEVER, just less often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Why can't he become the best player in the world? He's playing for one of the best teams in England. He's young. Has a very bright future.

    Nobody here, or could possibly know what his future has in store for him.

    There have been players that didn't have a burst in their Curent Ability in the past. Ian Wright and David Platt both blossomed around 23 or 24 years of age.

    It would be a tragedy if young players currently getting first team football in the best teams in the world NEVER had the potential to become the best players in the world.
    Oh please. Do you really believe that Ramsey has the potential ability to become as good as Xavi or Iniesta? He will go onto become a good player (baring any more major injuries), do well for Arsenal or whatever team he plays for in the future, but he will never be one of the top 10 players in the world.

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    That's not what I said, I never mentioned Xavi or Inestia

    And you don't know if he'll be a good player or a World class player. The game has him as a -10, that's giving him a potential of between 170 and 200.

    He in some games you start he'll be a world class player, and others he'll be a good player. Depending on where the roullette lands for him.


    I think that's fair to give a young player playing for a top club in the world that in some Game Saves he'll be good and others he'll be very good and in others he'll be world class.


    What's wrong with that? And there's nothing to say that he will ever reach that PA.


    In regards to the comparison to Xavi or Inestia - I never mentioned them.

    But now that you have, take a look at their career stats up to the age of 21 and then make a comparison to Ramsey's stats up to the age of 21.


    Similar - aren't they...

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    I'm sure in the next version of the game that he'll be given a solid PA - that can be disputed then.

    At the moment, he does have the potential to be a good player (PA 170+) or a very good player (PA 180+) or a world class player (PA 190+).

    The game reflects this by randomising it with a PA of -10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    Oh please. Do you really believe that Ramsey has the potential ability to become as good as Xavi or Iniesta? He will go onto become a good player (baring any more major injuries), do well for Arsenal or whatever team he plays for in the future, but he will never be one of the top 10 players in the world.
    Can you guarantee it?

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    What about Claude Makele - he played with Celta Vigo and was largely unknown until he signed for Real Madrid, at the age of 27. Then joining Chelsea for 16.5m at the age of 31. Undoubtly one of the best central midfielders of his generation.

    He stood out in the Real Madrid side as one of the best in Spain - that's playing alongside Zinédine Zidane, Luís Figo, Raúl, Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Steve McManaman, and Guti.

    Still not good enough reason to give a young player a high PA?


    What about Forlan, Berbatov, Wright, Platt.


    Tony Adams was 23 before he became an unstoppable force for Arsenal's defence.

    Luca Toni?

    Ferenc?

    Stanley Matthews?



    ALL players who had the potential to become world class players - and did so fairly late in their careers.


    There's no reason why a young player cannot have the potential to be the best player in the world.


    There is nothing to say that Ramsey will not become the best player in the world in 4 or 5 years time.

    And there's nothing to guarantee that he will - he could just as well turn out to be an average Joe.


    And the game reflects this - by giving him a random PA of 170 - 200 at the start of each game.

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    Makele was unheralded in his early career because his abilities didn't fit with the style of play, there's a reason why the deep holding midfield role is referred to as the Makele role.

    Ian Wright was passed by because he lacked discipline, once he grew up his talent for scoring goals came to the fore but he did get a lucky break in signing for Crystal Palace.

    Forlan had an excellent record as soon as he left Manchester United & moved to more a more familiar culture, he wasn't too bad before the move to United either.

    Berbatov was considered a very good talent in his early 20's, wiki has him scoring 16 goals in a season as a 20 year old at B.Leverkusen & he managed the feat twice at Sofia as a scrawny teenager, definite late bloomer there.

    Tony Adams was at the time the youngest ever captain of Arsenal so hardly a late bloomer.

    Luca Toni? You're having a laugh.

    Stanley Matthews & I assume you're referring to Puskas, both true legends of the game & are players from a very different era which is exemplified by the fact Matthews was still playing at the age of 50, neither however were late bloomers.

    btw I don't disagree that some players reach the top tier of the game later in their careers, you just picked some really, really bad examples.

    I will give you David Platt as a fairly good example although I do not think he was that old in 1990 & is a better examlpe of one club missing his talent at a young age.
    Last edited by Barside; 12-05-2012 at 18:31. Reason: wiki stat check

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    Luca Toni isn't a joke. He was a fairly average Serie A striker until 2004, when his goal tallies then skyrocketed to 30 in 47, 21 in 36, 33 in 42 and 16 in 29, earning him a move to Bayern Munich, where he scored 39 in 46. If that isn't a late-bloomer, then I don't know what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post

    btw I don't disagree that some players reach the top tier of the game later in their careers, you just picked some really, really bad examples.
    I did not - I picked the best examples.

    Some players reach the top of their game, some do it early, some do it late, some do it for a small span of their career.

    Like Ronaldinho, clearly one of the best players ever, until he suddenly stopped being great before he even turned 30.


    The whole point was - some players who were not really on peoples radars, either young, or later on in their careers, suddenly were at the top of the world of footballers.

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    The reason I scoffed at Luca Toni is that Italian clubs have a history of holding back their youth players, unless you're a truly prodigious talent the chances of breaking into a Serie A side before you're 23/24 was & still is quite low.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    I did not - I picked the best examples.

    Some players reach the top of their game, some do it early, some do it late, some do it for a small span of their career.

    Like Ronaldinho, clearly one of the best players ever, until he suddenly stopped being great before he even turned 30.


    The whole point was - some players who were not really on peoples radars, either young, or later on in their careers, suddenly were at the top of the world of footballers.
    You're post came across as if you were using those players as examples of people who bumbled about before their careers took off in their late 20's.

    Sorry if I misunderstood the context of what you wrote although most of the players you mentioned were at the top of their game for their entire career.
    Last edited by Barside; 12-05-2012 at 18:43.

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    Still though Luca Toni is a good example.

    Stanley Mathews didn't win his first major honours until 1953 - when he was 38.

    FWA Footballer of the Year: 1948, 1963

    European Footballer of the Year: 1956


    That's extremely late in your career to be winning world best players awards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Still though Luca Toni is a good example.

    Stanley Mathews didn't win his first major honours until 1953 - when he was 38.

    FWA Footballer of the Year: 1948, 1963

    European Footballer of the Year: 1956


    That's extremely late in your career to be winning world best players awards.
    I think a certain little scuffle that got out of hand stalled a good part of Matthew's career & I'm not sure how much early the awards you mention were given out.

    We'll agree to disagree on Luca Toni.

    Wiki update: Matthews was the first ever winner of the European Footballer of the Year & Football Writer's Footballer of the Year awards, talk about trying to portray the facts in a way to suit your position & of course his lack of winners medals is largely down to the way people approached a career in football before the 1960's.
    Last edited by Barside; 12-05-2012 at 18:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    The reason I scoffed at Luca Toni is that Italian clubs have a history of holding back their youth players, unless you're a truly prodigious talent the chances of breaking into a Serie A side before you're 23/24 was & still is quite low.
    Luca Toni wasn't held back. He bumbled about in the lower leagues as a first-teamer early-on in his career, before moving to Serie B and Serie A and displaying solid, if unspectacular performances. Then he hit 30 in 47 in Serie B and never looked back.

    He never was at a big club as a youngster.

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    I guess my reason for scoffing, much like your post about him being an average Serie A player prior to 2004 was off base in terms of Luca Toni, might be a better example than I initially gave credit for, possibly similar to Ian Wright were the talent was there but the attitude was not right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    I think a certain little scuffle that got out of hand stalled a good part of Matthew's career & I'm not sure how much early the awards you mention were given out.

    We'll agree to disagree on Luca Toni.

    Wiki update: Matthews was the first ever winner of the European Footballer of the Year & Football Writer's Footballer of the Year awards, talk about trying to portray the facts in a way to suit your position & of course his lack of winners medals is largely down to the way people approached a career in football before the 1960's.
    NO weird portrayl of the facts at all. He was born in 1915 and didn't win a majorly recognised award until his late 30's. I know he had a bizzarre career.

    But still. It's a good point.

    Who knows, Ramsey could have a career of average unrecognised ability and when he hits 30's he might get an award who knows.

    He might not ever get a balon d'or or writers players of the year or anything.

    But he certainly has the potential to.
    Last edited by Eugene Tyson; 12-05-2012 at 19:29.

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    But you seem, most of you to be missing the point. What, in all honesty, have we seen in Ramsey that would lead anyone to believe that he has the potential to become the very best, the absolute best, player in the world? That is what a -10 PA is for. I mentioned Xavi & Iniesta as they are the benchmark. They are the best midfielders in the world right now.

    A -10 is, or at least should be, reserved for a player that has the potential to be the best player in the world. I don't see how anyone can argue that Ramsey has ever shown that potential. He never has. He played a year in the championship championship and has then spent the large parts of his career out injured.

    All the players you have listed, should any of them ever have been given a -10? Platt, Berbatov, Adams etc, all good ​players, perhaps even great players. None of them, not one, could or would be classed as potentially the best player in the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Can you guarantee it?
    Can you highlight what he has done to demonstrate the fact that as to why he is given a -10 (potentially the best player in the world)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    But you seem, most of you to be missing the point. What, in all honesty, have we seen in Ramsey that would lead anyone to believe that he has the potential to become the very best, the absolute best, player in the world?
    He has very similar stats to that xavi and iniesta exhibited up to when they were 21.

    And there's nothing saying he will become the very best. He has the potential to though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    I mentioned Xavi & Iniesta as they are the benchmark. They are the best midfielders in the world right now.
    Really? What about Messi, Ronaldo, Robben, Alonso, Di Maria, Gerrard, Lampard - and another 30 other players?

    Somoene makes it to the top.

    Why not Ramsey? I'm not saying he will, but he has the potential to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    All the players you have listed, should any of them ever have been given a -10? Platt, Berbatov, Adams etc, all good ​players, perhaps even great players. None of them, not one, could or would be classed as potentially the best player in the world.
    You're telling me that Wright was not the best striker of his generation? Or Platt not the best midfielder of his?

    Or perhaps at some point that something didn't click in Luca Toni's career to make him the best player in Italy?


    There's a difference of becoming a good player, a very good player, a world class player, and a legend.


    A lot of people I mentioned never went down as legends. Some did though. And those who did, were kinda late to the party.


    So who knows what Ramsey has to offer? Perhaps we'll see a 170 or a 200 PA in reality.

    But for now, we have no way to tell. He's definitely not an average player. He's got something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    He has very similar stats to that xavi and iniesta exhibited up to when they were 21.

    And there's nothing saying he will become the very best. He has the potential to though.
    Really?

    By the time Xavi was 21 he had already played 97 league games for Barcelona and had played in the Olympics and the World cup.

    Iniesta had played 87 league games and was the best player for the spannish under-16 team that won the European championship. He also played for the under-19 tournament a year later. He was also in the Spain full squad at the world cup at 21.

    So tell me how he has exhibited simlar stats please?

    He has shown no evidence of having the potential to be the very best. He should go onto become a good, perhaps even a very good player (baring injury and illness), but not the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    You're telling me that Wright was not the best striker of his generation? Or Platt not the best midfielder of his?

    Or perhaps at some point that something didn't click in Luca Toni's career to make him the best player in Italy?


    There's a difference of becoming a good player, a very good player, a world class player, and a legend.


    A lot of people I mentioned never went down as legends. Some did though. And those who did, were kinda late to the party.


    So who knows what Ramsey has to offer? Perhaps we'll see a 170 or a 200 PA in reality.

    But for now, we have no way to tell. He's definitely not an average player. He's got something.
    I am telling you for certain that Ian Wright and David Platt were not ever the best players of their generation. Jesus, are you for real, or is this a wind-up?

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    In your opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    Really?

    By the time Xavi was 21 he had already played 97 league games for Barcelona and had played in the Olympics and the World cup.

    Iniesta had played 87 league games and was the best player for the spannish under-16 team that won the European championship. He also played for the under-19 tournament a year later. He was also in the Spain full squad at the world cup at 21.

    So tell me how he has exhibited simlar stats please?

    He has shown no evidence of having the potential to be the very best. He should go onto become a good, perhaps even a very good player (baring injury and illness), but not the best.
    Spain/Wales

    Argument 1 quashed


    Ramsey has played 67 league games for Arsenal

    Xavi had played 61 games for Barcelona "SENIOR" team by age 21.



    And goals and assists were sparse between both of them.

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    You're comparison to Xavi and Ramsey is insane. It's like comparing Mozart to Handel.

    Players of different generations, skills and style.

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    Okay, so David Platt and Ian Wright were better than:

    Paolo Maldini
    Roberto Baggio
    Romario
    Ronaldo
    Oliver Kahn
    Raul
    Dennis Bergkamp
    Zinedine Zidane

    If that is what you are saying, well, I think I know how you can come to the conclusion that Ramsey should be a -10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    Really?

    By the time Xavi was 21 he had already played 97 league games for Barcelona and had played in the Olympics and the World cup.

    Iniesta had played 87 league games and was the best player for the spannish under-16 team that won the European championship. He also played for the under-19 tournament a year later. He was also in the Spain full squad at the world cup at 21.

    So tell me how he has exhibited simlar stats please?
    Ramsey has played 67 league games for Arsenal, 27 for other clubs, and has spent a year out injured (probably equivalent to about 15 league matches given Fabregas was there last year- doubtless he'd have been used to rest Wilshire a bit though). He is the captain of his country and arguably Wales' best player. On the other hand, Wales are not Spain. Frankly international achievements are irrelevant because the nations they represent are so different.

    I don't know about goals or assists or whatever

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    You're comparison to Xavi and Ramsey is insane. It's like comparing Mozart to Handel.

    Players of different generations, skills and style.
    Players of different generations? Iniesta is 27. Ramsey is 21. Would hardly call them different generations.

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    Left back
    Stirker
    Striker
    Striker
    Goalkeeper
    Stiker
    Striker
    Midfielder

    Will Ramsey be better than Zindane???

    Who knows?

    By 21 Zidane had

    League 91 appearances and 17 goals.


    I can't get a list of assists or match ratings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    Players of different generations? Iniesta is 27. Ramsey is 21. Would hardly call them different generations.
    Eugene was clearly talking about comparing Xavi and Ramsey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    Players of different generations? Iniesta is 27. Ramsey is 21. Would hardly call them different generations.
    Oh on the Iniesta bandwagon now.

    Ok

    Iniesta, by age 21m league appearances 54 appearances and 3 goals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCIAG View Post
    Eugene was clearly talking about comparing Xavi and Ramsey.
    Thought it was clear there myself

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Left back
    Stirker
    Striker
    Striker
    Goalkeeper
    Stiker
    Striker
    Midfielder

    Will Ramsey be better than Zindane???

    Who knows?

    By 21 Zidane had

    League 91 appearances and 17 goals.


    I can't get a list of assists or match ratings.
    No.You said Ian Wright was the best striker of his generation. You also said David Platt was the best midfielder. Just highlighting better Strikers and Midfielders. Okay a couple of full backs and a goalkeeper, but the rest stand. Wright and Platt were never the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Oh on the Iniesta bandwagon now.

    Ok

    Iniesta, by age 21m league appearances 54 appearances and 3 goals.
    You need to check again please.

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    Iniesta Born: 1984

    League Appearances

    2002–03 6 Apps
    2003–04 11 Apps
    2004–05 37 Apps

    2005-1984=21


    Checked

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCIAG View Post
    Eugene was clearly talking about comparing Xavi and Ramsey.
    Yeah, sorry Eugene, I didn't see you just mention Xavi there.

    But, even still, what does it matter if they are from a differnet generation or skills? It is still a fact that FM, potentially, rates Ramsey above Xavi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    No.You said Ian Wright was the best striker of his generation. You also said David Platt was the best midfielder. Just highlighting better Strikers and Midfielders. Okay a couple of full backs and a goalkeeper, but the rest stand. Wright and Platt were never the best.
    They were World Class, after a bad start to their careers.

    Deny they were World Class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Iniesta Born: 1984

    League Appearances

    2002–03 6 Apps
    2003–04 11 Apps
    2004–05 37 Apps

    2005-1984=21


    Checked
    My maths way out then, sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    Yeah, sorry Eugene, I didn't see you just mention Xavi there.

    But, even still, what does it matter if they are from a differnet generation or skills? It is still a fact that FM, potentially, rates Ramsey above Xavi.
    No - it rates Ramsey as a -10. Between 170 and 200.

    A different save will result in different PA.


    He's certainly not below 170? Given the standard in the game.


    But time will tell if he is. He could be a 165-170. But we don't know yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    They were World Class, after a bad start to their careers.

    Deny they were World Class.
    Best of their generation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    No - it rates Ramsey as a -10. Between 170 and 200.

    A different save will result in different PA.


    He's certainly not below 170? Given the standard in the game.


    But time will tell if he is. He could be a 165-170. But we don't know yet.
    Does it potentially rate him above Xavi? Even Messi.

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    Look - I doubt after such late start to their careers that either Wright or Platt actually reached their potential.

    I reckon I took them a long time to reach their peak, which in my view would be around 180 in FM terms.

    But it wasn't until they were 23/24 that they reached their CA of this value (in FM terms). And was unlikely given their development to reach their true potential.


    Ramsey, he's just one player in the game.


    I just know that some players are known more for their performances than they are for their goals or assists.

    Like Xavi and Iniesta, a fine example. But they didn't play regualarly until they were 21.


    Ramsey is at that age now. He might not get goals, or assists. But he MIGHT be as good as Xavi or Iniesta.


    I'm not saying he will. But the game doesn't either.

    Some players reach potential, some don't. Some have a high Potential that they never reach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    Best of their generation?
    Top 10 I reckon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Top 10 I reckon.
    Sorry, no don't agree with you in either case. I could name 20 stirkers of the same generation that were much better. Better not say anything about Pratt as I never rated him anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Look - I doubt after such late start to their careers that either Wright or Platt actually reached their potential.

    I reckon I took them a long time to reach their peak, which in my view would be around 180 in FM terms.

    But it wasn't until they were 23/24 that they reached their CA of this value (in FM terms). And was unlikely given their development to reach their true potential.


    Ramsey, he's just one player in the game.


    I just know that some players are known more for their performances than they are for their goals or assists.

    Like Xavi and Iniesta, a fine example. But they didn't play regualarly until they were 21.


    Ramsey is at that age now. He might not get goals, or assists. But he MIGHT be as good as Xavi or Iniesta.


    I'm not saying he will. But the game doesn't either.

    Some players reach potential, some don't. Some have a high Potential that they never reach.
    I will agree to disagree with you. But I will bookmark the page for 10 years time (if we and SI are still here).

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    Go for it. It's likely we'll disagree. It's like you saying you like one set of music, and I don't.

    It's not that you're wrong. It's just I don't agree with your taste in music. I'd never tell anyone their music choice was crap. I'd just say "It's not for me".

    But we'd likely agree on some songs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    I will agree to disagree with you. But I will bookmark the page for 10 years time (if we and SI are still here).
    How can you disagree with a fact?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    Does it potentially rate him above Xavi? Even Messi.
    It potentially potentially rates him above Messi, it potentially potentially rates him as no better than Carrick or Cambiasso.

    I don't think Ramsey is very likely to be a genuine great like Xavi. There is a small possibility, but more likely he'll just be very, very good. I like negative PAs because they give a range of possible PAs, I'd like it even more if the likes of Ramsey were more likely to receive a PA at the low end of their range, and if players were less likely to come close to their PAs.

    When Van Persie was Ramsey's age, did anyone think he'd be the second best striker in the world? Not counting Ronaldo as he is still more of a winger. Maybe some people did, but he was largely overshadowed by Arsenal's other attacking players, aside from one brilliant goal against Charlton. Maybe he had a 1/20 chance of being as good as he is now, maybe 1/10, maybe even 1/5. He made it. For that reason, I'd like talented players like Ramsey but also others around the world to have the chance to become 180-ish players rather than have a PA set in the 160s or 170s. The problem now is that as well as the system not being ideal, Ramsey is the exception rather than the rule.
    Last edited by SCIAG; 12-05-2012 at 22:56. Reason: Added quote

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    How can you disagree with a fact?
    Which part did you feel was a fact?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCIAG View Post
    It potentially potentially rates him above Messi, it potentially potentially rates him as no better than Carrick or Cambiasso.

    I don't think Ramsey is very likely to be a genuine great like Xavi. There is a small possibility, but more likely he'll just be very, very good. I like negative PAs because they give a range of possible PAs, I'd like it even more if the likes of Ramsey were more likely to receive a PA at the low end of their range, and if players were less likely to come close to their PAs.

    When Van Persie was Ramsey's age, did anyone think he'd be the second best striker in the world? Not counting Ronaldo as he is still more of a winger. Maybe some people did, but he was largely overshadowed by Arsenal's other attacking players, aside from one brilliant goal against Charlton. Maybe he had a 1/20 chance of being as good as he is now, maybe 1/10, maybe even 1/5. He made it. For that reason, I'd like talented players like Ramsey but also others around the world to have the chance to become 180-ish players rather than have a PA set in the 160s or 170s. The problem now is that as well as the system not being ideal, Ramsey is the exception rather than the rule.
    Couldn't agree more but at the moment it is the reason I think Ramsey having a -10 is wrong. If he has it then there should be a whole load more youngsters given a -10.

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    Eugene, can I point out that David Platt was playing Division 1 football by the time he was 21, this was after his spell at Crewe following his release from Manchester United, he was hardly late in getting to the top tier of English football & you need to get past the myth that he was rescued after a decade on the football scrapheap.

    Also & this is aimed at both you & davehanson, since when did the definition of a players ability boil down to their stats? As has been mentioned in the Moneyball thread football is probably one of the least stat friendly sports out there & all this comparing of player X at 21 to player Y at 21 based on goals/appearances is if I'm honest quite laughable.

    Ramsey has bags of natural talent but a -10 PA player? Nope, -9 at best & even then I'm probably being rather generous.
    Last edited by Barside; 12-05-2012 at 23:03.

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    There's a small possibility that a player was going to be as good as Pele but it happened.

    Can't you see - some players excel way past their expectations sometimes.

    Why can't Ramsey?

    And he has NOT got the potential to be better than Messi in EVERY game. He has a PA of -10 which is between 170 and 200.

    No surprise Messi is 199.

    In every save, Ramsey will not be better or have the potential to be better than Xavi, Iniesta, or Messi.


    Only in some saves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Eugene, can I point out that David Platt was playing Division 1 football by the time he was 21, this was after a 3 year spell at Crewe after his release from Manchester United, he was hardly late in getting to the top tier of English football

    Also & this is aimed at both you & davehanson, since when did the definition of a players ability boil down to their stats? As has been mentioned in the Moneyball thread football is probably one of the least stat friendly sports out there & all this comparing of player X at 21 to player Y at 21 is if I'm honest quite laughable.

    Ramsey has bags of natural talent but a -10 PA player? Nope, -9 at best & even then I'm probably being rather generous.
    He was a late bloomer to the top division, Platt.

    All we have is a player stats. Appearances is really what I'm getting at. Nobody knew Iniesta or Xavi would be top players. But Ramsey has played roughly identical if not more league games than them. Ramsey might be a world class player, he might not. All I know is he's playing for a top team at Arsenal.


    Why not a -10? What makes you say that. Maybe his performances in the next few years will change that up or down or whatever. But for now, he's doing as well "statiscally" as Xavi and Iniesta.



    Can I point out - I don't think he'll be a world class player. Or better than Xavi or Iniesta. But I don't see why potentially he cannot be?

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    I always thought that 150 was the mark of an excellent top division player, giving someone a 170-200 range pretty much guarantees that they will be a world class player in FM, with a -10 he's pretty much nailed on to be a 176-194 player as he is equally unlikely to be a 170-175 as he is to be a 195+

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    He was a late bloomer to the top division, Platt.
    No he wasn't & any suggestion otherwise is utterly ludicrous, since when was making your Div 1 (top division in 1988) debut at the age of 21 a late start? Were you even around & watching the game on a regular basis in the late 80's?
    Last edited by Barside; 12-05-2012 at 23:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    There's a small possibility that a player was going to be as good as Pele but it happened.

    Can't you see - some players excel way past their expectations sometimes.

    Why can't Ramsey?

    And he has NOT got the potential to be better than Messi in EVERY game. He has a PA of -10 which is between 170 and 200.

    No surprise Messi is 199.

    In every save, Ramsey will not be better or have the potential to be better than Xavi, Iniesta, or Messi.


    Only in some saves.
    Oh my head hurts. He has the potential to be the best player on the game. Regardless of what the game will set him up as when you load it up. That can't be right.

    You ask why can't Ramsey? I would say I have seen nothing of him in an Arsenal shirt that would justify him having the potential to be a great player. I have seen honest, solid play, and based on that I would say his ability will lead him to become someone like Carrick/Milner/Parker. I would also say he has got so many games due to Arsenal's lack of options in central midfield.

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    Nope - giving them a PA of 170-200 means they can make it to that mark.

    It doesn't mean they will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    his ability will lead him to become someone like Carrick/Milner/Parker.
    Those players, imo, are ajoke. Carrick, Milner, Parker?

    Ramsey is already better than those. That's my opinion.

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    Carrick imo had the potential. But he never reached it.

    Milner, same

    Parker. Ha.

    Seriously?

    Ramesy is better than all 3 put together.

    I'm not an Arsenal fan. I'm not English and I'm not Welsh. I'm not biased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Those players, imo, are ajoke. Carrick, Milner, Parker?

    Ramsey is already better than those. That's my opinion.
    Okay-dokey then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Carrick imo had the potential. But he never reached it.

    Milner, same

    Parker. Ha.

    Seriously?

    Ramesy is better than all 3 put together.

    I'm not an Arsenal fan. I'm not English and I'm not Welsh. I'm not biased.
    Carrick, who has run United's midfield this year and been one of their best players.

    Parker who has captained England and Spurs, and been bloody good for both.

    Milner hasn't been great this year I'll admit. But, then you said Wright was the best player of his generation when he didn't start at Arsenal til he was what? Milner is only 25 so going by that he could have a PA of 200 as well? Don't see why not.

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    Carrick? Sweet jeebus. Part-time footballer

    Parker? Once captained England under a dismal time for England, no manager, and a part-time manager afraid to pick a real captain.
    31 years of age - 11 caps - JOKE


    Milner started playing at top level when he was 16! At the time he was heralded as the next best thing. Far from where Wright or PLatt started.

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    But sounds very similar to Ramsey.

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    Dave,

    I've not heard one iota that would sway why Ramsey does not deserve a decent PA in FM12?

    Not one iota.

    I've defended to the hilt, examples of players, from 1915 - Present day.

    Please give some evidence to WHY he shouldn't have a high PA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    But sounds very similar to Ramsey.
    And Walcott, and Pele...

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    He shouldn't have a -10 because other players of similar ability do not have -10. In my opinion either Ramsey doesn't get it or a load of other players are given -10 to match him.

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    Walcott & Pele placed together in context, Walcott is a one trick pony who will be no better that Shaun Wright-Phillips who himself is a very, very lucky boy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Carrick? Sweet jeebus. Part-time footballer

    Parker? Once captained England under a dismal time for England, no manager, and a part-time manager afraid to pick a real captain.
    31 years of age - 11 caps - JOKE


    Milner started playing at top level when he was 16! At the time he was heralded as the next best thing. Far from where Wright or PLatt started.
    Right, well I ain't gonna keep going at this, arguing with someone who thinks:

    Carrick is a part time footballer

    Platt stated his carrer late in the lower divisions (he spent 3 years outside the top flight BEFORE he was 21. He made his England debut at 21/22)

    Platt and Ian Wright were the best footballers (in their respective positions) of their generation.

    Anything I have left out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AcidBurn View Post
    He shouldn't have a -10 because other players of similar ability do not have -10. In my opinion either Ramsey doesn't get it or a load of other players are given -10 to match him.
    Who says their ability is similar? Name 21 year olds in top 4 Prem teams with similar ability?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Walcott & Pele paced together in context, Walcott is a one trick pony who will be no better that Shaun Wright-Phillips.
    Exactly - it's not a good match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    Anything I have left out?
    Yeh, that you're wrong that a player of 21 years of age can't at sometime, based on relative stats to both Xavi and Iniesta, to be a world class player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Dave,

    I've not heard one iota that would sway why Ramsey does not deserve a decent PA in FM12?

    Not one iota.

    I've defended to the hilt, examples of players, from 1915 - Present day.

    Please give some evidence to WHY he shouldn't have a high PA?
    I have already said that he deserves a PA of about 160 ish. That IS a decent PA. What he doesn't deserve is a PA that potentially makes him the greatest player on the game.

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    Jack Wilshere, Phil Jones and Danny Welbeck. That's just in the EPL, I am sure there are many more across Europe, do you think Ramsey is the most talented player under 21 in the game?

    Personally I would give Ramsey a -9.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    I have already said that he deserves a PA of about 160 ish. That IS a decent PA. What he doesn't deserve is a PA that potentially makes him the greatest player on the game.
    WHY though?

    He has the same stats as Xavi and Iniesta at that age.

    Would you say the same of Xavi and Iniesta 10 or 6 years ago?

    WHY?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AcidBurn View Post
    Jack Wilshere, Phil Jones and Danny Welbeck. That's just in the EPL, I am sure there are many more across Europe, do you think Ramsey is the most talented player under 21 in the game?
    Wilshere, he's good, no reason why he can't be best player in the World.

    Jones, another player capable of making it

    Welbeck - nah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Yeh, that you're wrong that a player of 21 years of age can't at sometime, based on relative stats to both Xavi and Iniesta, to be a world class player.
    You ask why can't Ramsey? I would say I have seen nothing of him in an Arsenal shirt that would justify him having the potential to be a great player. I have seen honest, solid play, and based on that I would say his ability will lead him to become someone like Carrick/Milner/Parker. I would also say he has got so many games due to Arsenal's lack of options in central midfield.


    Tell me what you see in Ramsey that leads you to believe he will be world class.

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    I asked you first.

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    It doesn't matter how his appearance statistics compare to players of 5, 10 or 50 years ago, it's about how he compares to his peers today & on that front he is overrated by FM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Wilshere, he's good, no reason why he can't be best player in the World.

    Jones, another player capable of making it

    Welbeck - nah.
    That's what I am saying, in my opinion if Ramsey is a -10 then other youngsters should be as well. Because they are not a -10 then Ramsey shouldn't be.

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    I already said why he has the ability.

    He has already played the same amount of games for Arsenal as Xavi and Iniesta has played for Barca, by the age of 21.

    Fact he keeps getting picked? Because he's good?

    I've said this already.

    AGAIN, not heard why you think he's not good enough?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AcidBurn View Post
    That's what I am saying, in my opinion if Ramsey is a -10 then other youngsters should be as well. Because they are not a -10 then Ramsey shouldn't be.
    I've said before (if you search the forums) that I think PA shouldn't be so precise.

    But it is. And Ramseys PA is set at -10.

    But only for a few more months. If someone thinks it shouldn't be then it should be brought up in the Date forums.

    But for now - he has a good potential.

    It's only for a few more months. New game arrives November/December.


    Bring up issues with players in Data forums. But I've not heard a solid argument to why his PA should be lowered.

    Or why other players PA's should be hired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    I already said why he has the ability.

    He has already played the same amount of games for Arsenal as Xavi and Iniesta has played for Barca, by the age of 21.

    Fact he keeps getting picked? Because he's good?

    I've said this already.

    AGAIN, not heard why you think he's not good enough?
    Okay, he is good. I don't think anyone has said he isn't. But he is getting games for Arsenal who don't exactly have the greatest midfield, at the moment, in the world.

    If Arsenal had Viera, Overmars, Pires, Ljunberg & Gilberto do you think he would have played as many games as he had done? Games to be honest are irrelevant, it is what you do in them, the ability and potential you show that deifnes how people percieve you.

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    If you're insistent on comparing past with present how strong was the Arsenal midfield this season in comparison to the Barcelona midfield that Xavi & Iniesta broke into?

    As you're using match appearances then you need to consider the standard of players at the Catalan club compared to the pool Arsene has to choose from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davehanson View Post
    Okay, he is good. I don't think anyone has said he isn't. But he is getting games for Arsenal who don't exactly have the greatest midfield, at the moment, in the world.

    If Arsenal had Viera, Overmars, Pires, Ljunberg & Gilberto do you think he would have played as many games as he had done? Games to be honest are irrelevant, it is what you do in them, the ability and potential you show that deifnes how people percieve you.
    Do you think he might have tried harder? Or less hard to break into the team?

    It's an impossible question to answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Do you think he might have tried harder? Or less hard to break into the team?

    It's an impossible question to answer.
    I ain't sure ain't that has to do with ability to be honest. On current ability would he have played more or less games with that kind of midfield compared to now? I would say definately less. In fact Wenger said that he played more games than he would have liked him to play since coming back from his injury due to a lack of other options.

  100. #100
    Youth Team
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    2nd August 2009
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    Is that a fact?

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