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Thread: Lower leagues are unrealistic. This is not a rant.

  1. #1
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    Default Lower leagues are unrealistic. This is not a rant.

    Okay so I'm talking about lower league management my focus is on England particularly the blue square leagues. I find that these leagues can become very unrealistic and therefore very easy. Of course the reason they can become unrealistic is due to the human.

    A particular area of focus is the transfers.

    I can very easily create a far superior squad to any of my rivals in these leagues within a couple of weeks. (Game time). Players with a CA coming around 30 points higher than most players in the league.

    The reason the transfers are unrealistic is because these players all tend to be foreign. In real life the blue square leagues are predominantly made of local British players. You will find teams such as Welling and say Dartford are likely to be made up of young English players from the London/Kent area possibly having played for team such as Leyton Orient or West Ham before not making the cut.

    For a non-contract or a £100 a week contract it is very unlikely anybody will move that far from home. Unless they have a football only orientated mind-set which may happen and player may travel from a home in Newcastle to venture into the south put this isn't that common.

    The problem is a human manager with a bit of attribute searching can easily find players far above the general league ability on free transfers. Often these are French/Spanish/Italian players and convince them to up and leave their home countries and since some are slightly older their family, or to relocate their family to a country they have never visited in a 15 year career, for £200 a week, not enough money to support a family at all.

    Players such as Esposito
    Rufete
    Guayre
    Bobson
    Crossa

    Are all examples these a re foreign players with no English ties who were prepared to join the Blue square south. On limited money, this is entirely unrealistic.

    The reason they make the move, as far as I can see is to do with their Current and World reputation being fairly low, usually a lower reputation than the club, so they seem content to join. This in my opinion proves the transfer system in football manager to be far too simplistic as their is far more than reputation that comes into making these decisions for players. Of course the higher you go the more money is paid out and the less unrealistic it appears but at the bottom this is problematic.

    So the crux of what I am saying is the transfer system and reputation needs an overlook to add to the realism. Very few people I know would leave their home and move to a country they don't know to play out the last few years of their ending career. Simply put it's not worth it.

    Another player, Counago however I don't see too much problem with. Many of you know he tends to be the first player a scout recommends when you are in the north/south leagues and he usually joins, although foreign, his case is different since he has played a career for Ipswich has lived in England for many years.

    Of course some of you will say 'dont sign them then' which yes okay that is a way to cover up the problem but it doesn't fix it. There is nothing to really stop the manager doing this.

    A measure that is in place is scouting restrictions but it is very easy to go to the transfer system put in finishing 11, composure 11 etc and find these players.

    In my opinion the transfers players are willing to make in the lower leagues not to be looked at for future versions of the game.

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    Personally, I choose not to use the Player search function at all and rely purely on scout recommendations, backroom advice, news items etc. However I appreciate that some people won't like to play with this self-imposed restriction and I would like to see SI implement an option to play with these more challenging rules.

    I'm sure if they did however there would be 100's of people complaining about it....! Dare I suggest the need for an easy / difficult rating?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chile_paul View Post
    Personally, I choose not to use the Player search function at all and rely purely on scout recommendations, backroom advice, news items etc. However I appreciate that some people won't like to play with this self-imposed restriction and I would like to see SI implement an option to play with these more challenging rules.

    I'm sure if they did however there would be 100's of people complaining about it....! Dare I suggest the need for an easy / difficult rating?
    It doesn't address the root issue that foreigners who are not "world-class" are too willing to pack up and move to a new country where it might take ages for them to settle down.

    Top-tier players don't have this issue as they are wealthy so if the move doesn't work out, they can always move back with few issues. However, the average person on the street can usually not afford to move country, and moving back is a very expensive waste of money (not to mention annoying due to constant resettling).

    I can only see transfers like this happening at the lower levels if the players ask for a lot of money up front to make up for it, which would quickly render the OP's strategy infeasible (but leaves it open if there is an outstanding player that you can sign who will definitely be worth the money). This is akin to a housing bonus of sorts if you join certain companies (at least in the UK).

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    But they surely can't complain about the game imposing something that doesn't happen. I mean we don't complain Messi won't move to my Swansea team.

    I do recognise you can self-impose your restrictions and many of us do, but it's a cover up it's not a fix. The game needs surgery not make-up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    It doesn't address the root issue that foreigners who are not "world-class" are too willing to pack up and move to a new country where it might take ages for them to settle down.

    Top-tier players don't have this issue as they are wealthy so if the move doesn't work out, they can always move back with few issues. However, the average person on the street can usually not afford to move country, and moving back is a very expensive waste of money (not to mention annoying due to constant resettling).

    I can only see transfers like this happening at the lower levels if the players ask for a lot of money up front to make up for it, which would quickly render the OP's strategy infeasible (but leaves it open if there is an outstanding player that you can sign who will definitely be worth the money). This is akin to a housing bonus of sorts if you join certain companies (at least in the UK).
    This is very much what I am getting at, in a summaries form. And reputation being a sole factor as far as I can see is the main cause.

    There are no foreign players in the Blue square either which doesn't give much prevention, but of course in real life, there is no need for it.

    It would be nice to see a better transfer AI, which can incorporate more factors into player decisions and demands.

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    I've built a dominating squad in my first season as Corby relying only on scout reports, never using player search and won the league by 25 points. Martin Grehan was just too good for the league.

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    Don't buy from outside the UK. I romped the BSS with Cadbury Heath with 2 foreigners both signed from BSP clubs just down the road.

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    Well, do you play with attributed masking on? most BSS/BSN sides cant scout outside of the UK, although they might be able to scout in france. If you've got attribute masking on and dont scour outside of your scout range, surely not that many foreign players would show up?. I don't think there's that much of a problem of being able to tempt these players - after all, leagues like the northern ireland top division which are about BSP quality would be boring if they couldnt tempt players from abroad to it. Any changes to these lower rep leagues may radiate to other leagues if not implemented properly so they have to be cautious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krald View Post
    Well, do you play with attributed masking on? most BSS/BSN sides cant scout outside of the UK, although they might be able to scout in france. If you've got attribute masking on and dont scour outside of your scout range, surely not that many foreign players would show up?. I don't think there's that much of a problem of being able to tempt these players - after all, leagues like the northern ireland top division which are about BSP quality would be boring if they couldnt tempt players from abroad to it. Any changes to these lower rep leagues may radiate to other leagues if not implemented properly so they have to be cautious.
    I thought FMs main focus was to provide a realistic simulation of football management, not to ensure certain leagues are not boring. Very, very few players from abroad play in Northern Irish football, the game should reflect that.

    Another issue with lower league football across the UK is the silly number of part time players who go from England to Ireland, or vice versa to play for £50 a week. Sure, there could be one or two who get a job and cross the Irish Sea, but a few years down the line about 50% of players in most Irish clubs are English, Scottish or Welsh.

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    I have noticed all of the above and couldn't agree more. Day one for any BSS team is to list all of the current players as you can get (much) better players on lower wages on free transfers - mostly from Ireland/NI/Scotland/Wales. In real life, the idea of a player moving home for a part-time wage is ludicrous.

    The point that using scouts should help make it more realistic is also wrong, most BSS teams don't have scouts IRL so how could that be more realistic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnhughthom View Post
    Another issue with lower league football across the UK is the silly number of part time players who go from England to Ireland, or vice versa to play for £50 a week. Sure, there could be one or two who get a job and cross the Irish Sea, but a few years down the line about 50% of players in most Irish clubs are English, Scottish or Welsh.
    That is the larger issue IMO. THe foreign player thing, while silly, is not as bad as the above. What I would like to see is regional coding. Not sure how it would look, but if you manage a part-time club, then the bulk of your player should have to come from within a reasonable radius of your town...25 miles or less? 20? Not sure what would be totally realistic. For higher wage players this could be removed, but that would stop a large chunk of the problem right there. It might be a bugger to do, though.

    On the foreign players bit, noticed Salibury in the BSP in my current save signing several Latvians. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot I thought. I looked, and they had a Latvian coach, signed on out of the Championship after he retired. In another instance, a BSS club had an Austrian coach, same deal. Could explain some of the instances at least

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    I am playing a game now where I took over a newly promoted BSS team and cannot sign any players, I can only rely on my youth intake for new players. This makes the game play quite realistic, I have avoided relegation by a combined 3 points in 2 seasons, which is quite realistic I feel.

    BUT

    Obviously playing the way I do is not that realistic, so I get the right result but with the wrong method.

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    Regional coding wouldn't work. There's hundred's of players in lower league football (right down to pub football) that play for teams no where near their birth place as quite a few people move house for professional jobs / with their parents as kids, therefore if SI implemented regional coding it would be far more unrealistic than it is now.

    I do agree with the OP that too many foreign players can be signed though but with attribute masking it does lower the amount of foreign players you buy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hluraven View Post
    I have noticed all of the above and couldn't agree more. Day one for any BSS team is to list all of the current players as you can get (much) better players on lower wages on free transfers - mostly from Ireland/NI/Scotland/Wales. In real life, the idea of a player moving home for a part-time wage is ludicrous.

    The point that using scouts should help make it more realistic is also wrong, most BSS teams don't have scouts IRL so how could that be more realistic?
    You can make this as realistic as you want. He may have accepted the move and rejected the others as he's also found himself a new job near his new club. I can't see a problem at all with people moving around the UK/Ireland area. Loads of English players play in Scandanavia for p/t wages IRL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJackLester View Post
    Regional coding wouldn't work. There's hundred's of players in lower league football (right down to pub football) that play for teams no where near their birth place as quite a few people move house for professional jobs / with their parents as kids, therefore if SI implemented regional coding it would be far more unrealistic than it is now.

    I do agree with the OP that too many foreign players can be signed though but with attribute masking it does lower the amount of foreign players you buy.
    I fail to see the problem. There is already a "based" specified for all players. Just make it so that "based" sometimes changes for amateur and semi-professional players (they find job in other countries), at least for those not under any type of contract. At the same make people unwilling to move abroad for anything less than a typical salary of the country they come from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJackLester View Post
    You can make this as realistic as you want. He may have accepted the move and rejected the others as he's also found himself a new job near his new club. I can't see a problem at all with people moving around the UK/Ireland area. Loads of English players play in Scandanavia for p/t wages IRL.
    I think you're being overly kind here, if you look at the calibre of player I originally mentioned, players such as Esposito, Guayre and Bobson, have international caps. Esposito is a former AS Roma player. He has done the hard work already, probably made his fortune in football from a career in the Serie A, it makes no sense that when already set he would change his life to play as a part-timer in England, in the next database in FM13 you wont find him playing in the Blue Square. If he goes to another club I would expect possibly a C1 Italian team. It's not the same as 19 year old moving to further their career. For a teenager it's different they may see it as a last chance to launch a career.

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    Quote Originally Posted by !.m.! View Post
    I think you're being overly kind here, if you look at the calibre of player I originally mentioned, players such as Esposito, Guayre and Bobson, have international caps. Esposito is a former AS Roma player. He has done the hard work already, probably made his fortune in football from a career in the Serie A, it makes no sense that when already set he would change his life to play as a part-timer in England, in the next database in FM13 you wont find him playing in the Blue Square. If he goes to another club I would expect possibly a C1 Italian team. It's not the same as 19 year old moving to further their career. For a teenager it's different they may see it as a last chance to launch a career.
    I agree with you. I was just pointing out to another poster that flitting between UK / Ireland for P/T wages is quite satisfactory in my books.

    Totally agree with former Serie A players signing for Blue Square teams though. Totally unrealistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJackLester View Post
    I agree with you. I was just pointing out to another poster that flitting between UK / Ireland for P/T wages is quite satisfactory in my books.

    Totally agree with former Serie A players signing for Blue Square teams though. Totally unrealistic.
    Yes and I would say there is less of a problem here, admittedly in real life it doesn't happen as much as it does on the game, but it is a plausible move, finding players in a country that shares borders (More or less) and speaks the same language (Again more or less if they have a strong accent :P) is entirely plausible.

    The AI rarely signs or even attempts these transfers so it doesn't wreck the league but there is nothing to prevent the human other than self-restraint, and I believe there should be.

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    tbh I have no issue with this.

    If players from abroad would reject such moves no matter what it would certainly make the game more realistic, but I doubt it would make it more fun.

    The actual issue behind this is the deficiencies in AI squad building imho. That is what makes it too easy for you to accumulate a better squad than the rest.
    Then however, I couldn't imagine managing in the lower league for any other purpose than leaving them asap. Consecutive 13th places in the Conference North would certainly make me start a new career...

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    There should be a hidden wage cap, I believe that a football player in Bulgaria is willing to come and play for 1000 € a month on a semi-pro contract and for 2500 € on a Pro contract, as the life standards in the UK and countries in the north are much better. Maybe there could be a hidden stat like prudency, because I can assume that not everybody would have the guts to make such a drastic decision.

    I live in Belgium and the lower leagues are crowded with foreigners (Mostly East-Europeans and Africans, as they know that if they live in Belgium, they and their children/family are set for life in comparison with the conditions in their home country).

    Should they fail then they can rely on our derailed social welfare system. 1 Year work is 6 months of social security at the highest level and then it degrades in time.

    Here there are also lots of teams that offer part-time jobs thanks to their sponsors.

    I’m not English but I hear that also England is a desirable place for foreigners, even though I need to admit that maybe the Blue Square South/North is not very sexy, but for a foreign player it could be a great stepping stone and if they fail, the majority will have a chance to make it in a better economy.

    Why did I provide this information?

    Because if SI is going to fix this, I’m scared for the repercussions this solution will have for other countries, like Belgium. The biggest example would be the artificial difficulty implemented with the Starting Manager reputation, that has unbalanced the whole reputation dynamic for everybody just to satisfy a few.
    Last edited by fabioke; 08-05-2012 at 12:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayahr View Post
    tbh I have no issue with this.

    If players from abroad would reject such moves no matter what it would certainly make the game more realistic, but I doubt it would make it more fun.

    The actual issue behind this is the deficiencies in AI squad building imho. That is what makes it too easy for you to accumulate a better squad than the rest.
    Then however, I couldn't imagine managing in the lower league for any other purpose than leaving them asap. Consecutive 13th places in the Conference North would certainly make me start a new career...
    Why has finishing 13th every season have anything to do with signing foreigners? You can get a BSN team promoted by signing all homegrown players. We're just saying that signing a ex Serie A player directly from Italy for Forest Green is stupidly unrealistic.

    One thing i have noticed is that very, very few English players go abroad unless they have a second nationality (eg Trinidad or Nigeria). This needs to be looked at, as more and more English players are moving to foreign clubs then ever before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJackLester View Post
    One thing i have noticed is that very, very few English players go abroad unless they have a second nationality (eg Trinidad or Nigeria). This needs to be looked at, as more and more English players are moving to foreign clubs then ever before.
    No that's definitely not something that needs looking at, sure, it happens, but it's still rare IRL.

    Edit:

    Anyway, to respond to an earlier comment, I'm not talking about northern ireland as it is now - I mean, as the league rises in rep using the system, there should be players willing to dip down for some european football if a team is managing a few runs. Basically, the more you try to iron down the system and add all sorts of exceptions and rules to make it more "realistic" the more you have the potential to ruin longer term play, as it's hard to test the changes fully in the long term.
    Last edited by Krald; 08-05-2012 at 17:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJackLester View Post
    Regional coding wouldn't work. There's hundred's of players in lower league football (right down to pub football) that play for teams no where near their birth place as quite a few people move house for professional jobs / with their parents as kids, therefore if SI implemented regional coding it would be far more unrealistic than it is now.

    I do agree with the OP that too many foreign players can be signed though but with attribute masking it does lower the amount of foreign players you buy.
    I don't think that birthplace needs to be the criteria, unless for regens that come through a team's youth scheme. Rather, it could be based on the last team played for. Surely the players would live in that area. Each city/town in FM has lat/long coordinates in the db. Someone better at the math than I could certainly create a span around each location. It could work after that fashion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fabioke View Post
    There should be a hidden wage cap, I believe that a football player in Bulgaria is willing to come and play for 1000 € a month on a semi-pro contract and for 2500 € on a Pro contract, as the life standards in the UK and countries in the north are much better. Maybe there could be a hidden stat like prudency, because I can assume that not everybody would have the guts to make such a drastic decision.
    There is a field in the city codes in the db (As I recall from the EHM db) that assigns an attraction/livability value, so to some extent what you refer to should already be working.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hook View Post
    There is a field in the city codes in the db (As I recall from the EHM db) that assigns an attraction/livability value, so to some extent what you refer to should already be working.
    That is interesting, at the point you made in the above post, makes sense to me as well, which is why I never had problems with the Counago move, he had definitely spent years in England already.

    If what you say here is true, I would expect that England particularly clubs around the London area are highly attractive, and so bring in a variety of players. What I would suggest from that is should players be more attracted to their own country to give it the advantage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJackLester View Post
    Why has finishing 13th every season have anything to do with signing foreigners? You can get a BSN team promoted by signing all homegrown players. We're just saying that signing a ex Serie A player directly from Italy for Forest Green is stupidly unrealistic.
    I'm not saying that you need foreigners to finish any better than 13th.
    My point was that while there seems to be an issue with AI squad building (if foreigners will join you, they will also join your league competitors and thus they should also try to get them and their failure to do so causes a balance problem), any solution would make the game more difficult at these stages. And I assume that to many users the ability to have unrealistic success is part of the fun.Irl there is no way that any L2 club would reach the Prem without a sugardaddy within 10 years (exceptions may exist, but are extremely rare) and just this is what people just love to achieve in their saves.

    My example was just meant to state that I'm on the same page with these people and therefore would be frustrated by managing in such a low league with no progression.
    A comment on the realism/fun balance, really.

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    You make a good point. I manage Port Talbot in the Welsh Premier League and can't help but notice how easy it is to sign Irish players. When I look through the squad lists of the Welsh sides in real life, there are barely any Irish and Scottish players which is understandable considering that most sides in the Welsh Prem are from Mid Wales, a remote area that doesn't offer up many career prospects for a part-time footballer.

    In this case, I feel that the scouting itself is the problem. Even the professional sides don't tend to scout further afield than England yet in the game even crap teams such as Port Talbot let scouts look around the UK and Ireland to discover talent. It may be easy to sort out the scouting issues, but it's much harder to sort out the issue of players moving countries for part-time contracts. There are so many variables to consider, and these change over time. For example, due to the severe economic crisis in Ireland, more Irish men and women of working age are having to leave their homeland to find work, and maybe some of those will also happen to be semi-pro footballers. To create a game that takes into accounts such intricacies is an impossible task and I can see why the FM staff haven't approached this so far.

    For the next game, there does need to be restrictions on the amount of Irish and Scots (and other foreigners) who will move to England or Wales for semi-pro contracts. Such restrictions may leave out certain random real-life factors but that's not something that can be programmed into a game. I am ok with a few random factors being ignored for the sake of a Welsh league that is made up of predominantly Welsh players as is the case in real life.

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    Part of the fun for a lot of people, is living a little fantasy. If they want to try signing a United Nations XI for an pretty obscure 6th tier English side, then chances are, they can.

    If that's how they want to play the game... they can do so.

    Part of the fun for a lot of people, is attempting to simulate a more realistic environment. Limiting themselves with scouting and experiencing situations perhaps more akin to lower league football.

    If that's how they want to play the game... they can do so.





    See what I did there? ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by heathxxx View Post
    Part of the fun for a lot of people, is living a little fantasy. If they want to try signing a United Nations XI for an pretty obscure 6th tier English side, then chances are, they can.

    If that's how they want to play the game... they can do so.

    Part of the fun for a lot of people, is attempting to simulate a more realistic environment. Limiting themselves with scouting and experiencing situations perhaps more akin to lower league football.

    If that's how they want to play the game... they can do so.

    See what I did there? ;)
    While true to an extent, it has to be plausible. If every Level 6 team was given £1,000,000,000 but didn't have to use it, anyone could play how they wanted, but it would still be ridiculous. Signing players from amateur clubs abroad for £20 a week is as implausible as so many other things that just shouldn't be in the game.

    I only play one way, I get the game, start as Bromley, and play as realistically as I can until the next version. If I can sign a great player for less than my current player, I will do so. It just makes the starting squad an irrelevance as dumping them all as quickly as possible and replacing them with cheaper better players from around the UK (and then youth players on £5 a week at the end of season 1) is a much better option.

    The trouble is, the English semi-pro levels play just like the pro levels with less money, no 7-day approaches, dual contracts, players released and re-signing soon after, groups of players following certain managers and much more just are not in the game when they are integral to a real life experience of this level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heathxxx View Post
    Part of the fun for a lot of people, is living a little fantasy. If they want to try signing a United Nations XI for an pretty obscure 6th tier English side, then chances are, they can.

    If that's how they want to play the game... they can do so.

    Part of the fun for a lot of people, is attempting to simulate a more realistic environment. Limiting themselves with scouting and experiencing situations perhaps more akin to lower league football.

    If that's how they want to play the game... they can do so.





    See what I did there? ;)
    But you have avoided the issue of the game being marketed as a football manager simulation a United Nations XI is not so.

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    As a supporter of a Conference North club I hope I can provide a little bit of insight.

    My club is Birmingham-based. The vast majority of our players live in and around the West Midlands and will have played for other midland clubs. However, there is a second factor. Because we play in a northern league (well, it was northern, then the likes of Gloucester and Bishop's Stortford were forced to come and play with us...) we have had players from places like Derby, Stoke, and Nottingham play for us, because it's easy for them to get picked up as the club coach travels north to away games. Likewise, geographically isolated clubs like Workington and Boston train elsewhere. Workington train in Penrith and therefore can attract players from slightly further afield. I believe Barrow train in Salford and thus attract lots of Manchester-based players.

    I too have noticed the lack of realism with signing players from the lower leagues. This would be my proposed solution:

    We now have the 'region' in-game (suspiciously introduced after I'd done an in-depth post on lack of realism in away attendances and suggested adding them). Players who have played for a club within that region are more likely to accept part-time terms in that region. We could also use the lat/long system as a fall-back for clubs on regional borders (e.g. Nuneaton/Hinckley).

    Add a 'training base' location for clubs. Clearly for most clubs this would be the same as their home city, but would add an element of realism to the regional element.

    Have a setting for leagues to have this sort of regionalisation. On the competition screen, have a check box to turn on or off 'part-time contracts more likely to attract local players'. This solves the problem that our Belgian friend highlighted. Immigration laws seem to be a lot more lenient in Belgium, and clubs play part-time football at a higher level, so obviously they don't need to be subject to such tweaking.

    I think that would go some way to make it more realistic.

    The other serious issue is players expecting more than a 12-month contract with a part-time club. No non-league club would offer a contract for more than a single season. Half of the squad at any given club will be on a rolling contract and clubs will be able to poach them at 7 days notice. It's not a massive deal to implement these kind of contracts, but at least stop part-time clubs offering more than single-season contracts, because anything else is massively unrealistic. I feel that more players should be attracted to part-time clubs on amateur contracts, too.

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    I'm a regular at Southport games and can honestly say that, from the moment the game starts, the AI manages them totally unrealistically. Everything from the way the board treat the manager to the way the club signs the players is totally unrealistic. Makes me wonder if anyone really researches them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robot (SMFC) View Post
    As a supporter of a Conference North club I hope I can provide a little bit of insight.

    My club is Birmingham-based. The vast majority of our players live in and around the West Midlands and will have played for other midland clubs. However, there is a second factor. Because we play in a northern league (well, it was northern, then the likes of Gloucester and Bishop's Stortford were forced to come and play with us...) we have had players from places like Derby, Stoke, and Nottingham play for us, because it's easy for them to get picked up as the club coach travels north to away games. Likewise, geographically isolated clubs like Workington and Boston train elsewhere. Workington train in Penrith and therefore can attract players from slightly further afield. I believe Barrow train in Salford and thus attract lots of Manchester-based players.

    I too have noticed the lack of realism with signing players from the lower leagues. This would be my proposed solution:

    We now have the 'region' in-game (suspiciously introduced after I'd done an in-depth post on lack of realism in away attendances and suggested adding them). Players who have played for a club within that region are more likely to accept part-time terms in that region. We could also use the lat/long system as a fall-back for clubs on regional borders (e.g. Nuneaton/Hinckley).

    Add a 'training base' location for clubs. Clearly for most clubs this would be the same as their home city, but would add an element of realism to the regional element.

    Have a setting for leagues to have this sort of regionalisation. On the competition screen, have a check box to turn on or off 'part-time contracts more likely to attract local players'. This solves the problem that our Belgian friend highlighted. Immigration laws seem to be a lot more lenient in Belgium, and clubs play part-time football at a higher level, so obviously they don't need to be subject to such tweaking.

    I think that would go some way to make it more realistic.

    The other serious issue is players expecting more than a 12-month contract with a part-time club. No non-league club would offer a contract for more than a single season. Half of the squad at any given club will be on a rolling contract and clubs will be able to poach them at 7 days notice. It's not a massive deal to implement these kind of contracts, but at least stop part-time clubs offering more than single-season contracts, because anything else is massively unrealistic. I feel that more players should be attracted to part-time clubs on amateur contracts, too.
    Would love some of these idea to be in. I doubt they would as it's probably only an issue for a niche section of forumites and SI's strategy seems to be focused on winning securing new customers.

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    So would it be unrealistic for a side lower than even the BSS or BSN to sign a former Brazilian International????

    Would that player play for that side IRL ?????


    Ummmm it happens/

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    I imagine this is a tough one for SI as less than 10% of people who buy FM will ever even play in the lower leagues. And then even then, less than 20% of those people will even care about how it is to be able to sign players on part-time contracts who aren't local. So while I do personally agree it's a problem and would like to see it resolved in some way. I know I'm in the >1% of people who buy FM that even care about this issue. So I can't imagine it's too high on the priority list at SI. I think if they did make it more realistic, they'd just end up with more complaints than people happy for the change.
    Last edited by Nocuous; 11-05-2012 at 06:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wardog View Post
    So would it be unrealistic for a side lower than even the BSS or BSN to sign a former Brazilian International????

    Would that player play for that side IRL ?????


    Ummmm it happens/
    Missing the point. The point is that it should not be possible to sign players from foreign clubs/countries for £20 a week, as they quite obviously could not afford to live on that. Players IRL move country for work and are fine on a part-time contract, but it is much rarer than in FM where they do it solely for football. One-off publicity stunts with Socrates should not mean that it is ok for every lower level team to end up 100% implausible within 6 months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike7077 View Post
    I'm a regular at Southport games and can honestly say that, from the moment the game starts, the AI manages them totally unrealistically. Everything from the way the board treat the manager to the way the club signs the players is totally unrealistic. Makes me wonder if anyone really researches them.
    As said repeatedly, it has nothing to do with the research as you (and the AI) cannot do many of the things that make this level what it is. For the human, as the players you can bring in are way better than the players you start with, as well as cheaper, the problem is signing players much better than your current ones, who are willing to accept 10% of the wages they should for the level.

    A combined problem is that the AI does not sign these players, so not only is it unrealistic that you can, but it gives you a huge jump on the competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hluraven View Post
    A combined problem is that the AI does not sign these players, so not only is it unrealistic that you can, but it gives you a huge jump on the competition.
    This is a big impact of the problem, which really does effect you, by taking advantage of this you can be playing with players with a CA of about 30 higher than your opponents. Most teams at the level have 60's at best you can have high 90's on half the money, this is effectively meaning a BSS/N team can have a top end League 2 squad almost instantly. To me that is a problem. Unless you self restrict there is no challenge.

    Attribute masking (of which it's implementation is another issue entirely) helps hide some of these players, but as I repeatedly say that is not a fix. They still come.

    Whether on or it's the main concern of their target audience or not it is a problem. There have been suggestions in here of how to counteract this and half of what they need is already in the game.

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    I can understand where everyone is coming from. but by the same token i enjoyed trawling through international sides U19 and u21 teams to look for players who had bene out of contract for a year or so and were willing to take one last chance at getting a career started (having spent the previous year refusing to negotiate with me) and from signing for my team they have all forged solid careers from the championship to league 2 (a couple even got to the premiership). So i think in that case its not entirely unrealistic, it should probably factor in boards as often in real life a team would pay for accomodation. I play American Football and have known clubs to pay for americans housing when they come across to play as well as helping them get a job (it works the other way, i know a guy who goes to play in spain during winter) and really that sport is at the same level as the BSS/N.

    Its not the most realistic, but the people who dont like this feature tend to ignore it and play by their own rules anyway. So i fail to see a problem other than to give about 15 people their peace of mind.

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    After doing a bit of research on the location of players who play in the Welsh premier league, I can offer a few suggestions to make the transfers in that league more realistic:

    - There are one or two Scottish or Irish players based in their respective countries initially who play in the league. The fact that Scottish and Irish players move to Wales with so little hesitation in the game is a bit silly to say the least and needs to be rectified. I would go as far to suggest that Scottish and Irish players born in Scotland and Ireland should not even be considering a move unless it's a very attractive full time contract with a livable wage. As a part time side, Port Talbot should definitely not be able to attract players from either country as I was able to.

    - English players from areas such as East Anglia or Newcastle or even London very rarely decide to move to Wales to play part time football. From looking at the location of the English players in the league, most live near the border. There are a good number of players from Liverpool, Shrewsbury, Chester, Bristol and more northern cities such as Manchester, but there are none that I know of from areas as far away as East Anglia. Of course, there are exceptions. For example, Aberystwyth and Bangor are university towns and attract students who may arrive from anywhere in Britain or even from a foreign country, but towns in the South such as Llanelli, Neath and Port Talbot will not attract many non-Welsh players despite their proximity to the big cities in the country.

    There are even more variables. Airbus UK are based in Flintshire on the border so have a predominantly English side; TNS are actually based in England and are professional so will be more likely to be able to attract English players near the border. The Mid Wales towns are actually pretty easy to get to on a train from the Midlands hence why you see Newtown and Bala having more English players on their books than Neath, Llanelli or Port Talbot.

    My initial proposals:

    - Drastically limit the number of Scottish and Irish players that will join Welsh sides.

    - Limit the players from the northern border towns in England that will join the South Welsh sides (Port Talbot, Carmarthen, Llanelli)

    - Limit the players from South Wales that will move up North.

    - The Flintshire sides (Connah's Quay and Airbus) should attract more English players from the Northern border towns while having a very limited number of Welsh players not from the immediate area.

    - Allow more flexibility for the university towns (Aberystwyth and Bangor), with more young midland players being more open to move to Aberystwyth especially.

    I appreciate how difficult it must be to make such intricate changes to the transfer system but any movement to ensure a higher level of realism in the transfer system in the lower leagues will be much appreciated.

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    I really cant help but think how incredibly un-enjoyable that would be for me. Not to mention how hard it'd be to relax those restrictions if the welsh league became more successful in europe and grew in reputation. All these calls for "realism" have some sense to them, however it's very easy to risk slipping from "fun, somewhat realistic" into "hyper-realistic, but fun only to a select few enthusiasts".

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    Surely the solution for that is a tick/untick option to implement regional factors affecting transfers? I'm not saying that everyone should have to play by the same rules that I do, but a game claiming to be a realistic simulation of football management should offer the option of a more realistic simulation to those that want it.

    With more realistic transfers happening in the league, the growth in reputation almost certainly would not happen. By limiting the players who would viably join a Welsh premier league side, there would be a natural limit to how far even the best players could take a side from the league. I know this doesn't apply to most, but I wouldn't even enjoy taking my local side to champions league glory. For me, the group stages would be the achievement that would make me the most proud, but after that I would naturally want to move on to a better league and a better club.

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    I'm currently managing Altrincham in the BSN at the moment and I have only signed players on free transfers from the lower divisions or from the Greater Manchester area. While I agree with the OP I think it should be up to the human managers's discretion whether or not they wish to sign those players. At the same time though I sure as hell wouldn't want the CPU manager taking advantage of this! ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by WelshWizard View Post
    Surely the solution for that is a tick/untick option to implement regional factors affecting transfers? I'm not saying that everyone should have to play by the same rules that I do, but a game claiming to be a realistic simulation of football management should offer the option of a more realistic simulation to those that want it.

    With more realistic transfers happening in the league, the growth in reputation almost certainly would not happen. By limiting the players who would viably join a Welsh premier league side, there would be a natural limit to how far even the best players could take a side from the league. I know this doesn't apply to most, but I wouldn't even enjoy taking my local side to champions league glory. For me, the group stages would be the achievement that would make me the most proud, but after that I would naturally want to move on to a better league and a better club.
    Well, that's a fair enough point to look at it with, but in my experience (I havent played much FM2012, but played lots of 2011 and 2010) it does seem like foreign transfers (like spaniards to BSP) are hard to make due to both scouting reasons, and reluctance of people to move. In terms of people not wanting to move to the other side of the UK, well that's where you go to an iffy area for me. I mean, It's easy to look at nationality and instantly know that one's from "your country" or an adjascent one, which makes it feel manageable even to one who isnt an expert, but to look at birthplace, and they'd have to add a "resides at" field for people who live further afield and guestimate interest based on that isn't that easy, you'd find a lot of people sifting through players, trying to sign them, but getting frustrated at the mass amount of refusals.

    Sure, they could attempt to implement a "based within x miles" filter but that could be quite complicated to implement. All in all it'd be a lot of work to not only implement this "option" but make it something that's engaging to play with. Sure, you can say half-arse it and leave it for enthusiasts, but if you're going to do something, surely you should do it well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by !.m.! View Post
    But you have avoided the issue of the game being marketed as a football manager simulation a United Nations XI is not so.
    But you have missed the issue that the game is already filled with absurdity. A 20 year old from Brighton can never coach Man United. The game doesnt simulate lots of the negative side of the ...wait for it....the.....GAME.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WelshWizard View Post
    I appreciate how difficult it must be to make such intricate changes to the transfer system but any movement to ensure a higher level of realism in the transfer system in the lower leagues will be much appreciated.
    Not by me nor many others. You can do this yourself in your own game..just sign players by your own rules. Coding these nightmare restrictions would be extremely difficult and would cause many an unforeseen problem. Many people enjoy using the transfer market as their favorite part of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WelshWizard View Post
    Surely the solution for that is a tick/untick option to implement regional factors affecting transfers? I'm not saying that everyone should have to play by the same rules that I do, but a game claiming to be a realistic simulation of football management should offer the option of a more realistic simulation to those that want it.

    With more realistic transfers happening in the league, the growth in reputation almost certainly would not happen. By limiting the players who would viably join a Welsh premier league side, there would be a natural limit to how far even the best players could take a side from the league. I know this doesn't apply to most, but I wouldn't even enjoy taking my local side to champions league glory. For me, the group stages would be the achievement that would make me the most proud, but after that I would naturally want to move on to a better league and a better club.
    Areas like Glasgow, Merseyside and Lancashire didn't become footballing "hotbeds" overnight. It took decades of "footballing culture" for them to produce multiple professional football clubs.

    The ideal game should be able to do the same thing for Welsh sides, over many decades possibly, and one club cannot do it alone.

    The reality is that if a Welsh side started doing very well, the reputation of the club would rise, the reputation of the league would rise (albeit likely much slower) and the reputation of the country would rise (albeit even slower). As these rise, the regional "limitations" would drop away as playing for the Welsh leagues would be more financially-appealing.

    So I don't think there's a real natural limit (except perhaps a team of Messis), but it will take you a while before you get there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Areas like Glasgow, Merseyside and Lancashire didn't become footballing "hotbeds" overnight. It took decades of "footballing culture" for them to produce multiple professional football clubs.

    The ideal game should be able to do the same thing for Welsh sides, over many decades possibly, and one club cannot do it alone.

    The reality is that if a Welsh side started doing very well, the reputation of the club would rise, the reputation of the league would rise (albeit likely much slower) and the reputation of the country would rise (albeit even slower). As these rise, the regional "limitations" would drop away as playing for the Welsh leagues would be more financially-appealing.

    So I don't think there's a real natural limit (except perhaps a team of Messis), but it will take you a while before you get there.
    You talk about footballing hotbeds but really there is a lot to it, and the fact is if you look around the premiership or the successful clubs across the country they all are from cities. Areas where there is a much bigger populations, more saturated with footballing facilities and scouting networks. Compare the population of London or Manchester with that of Welsh town and there is a big difference. A higher population, means there are more young players in the region as well as a bigger fanbase. In real life it's very unlikely to see a small town football side become successful for these reasons.

    Then when dealing with countries like Ireland and Wales. You have to consider also how important is football. Compared with England for example. I would argue in those countries Rugby is a more important sport. It's almost a matter of pride. These factors make a difference to the interest in you successes, the players who want to play in those areas.

    Real life football until you are at the top, isn't we can sign anyone good enough for the team, and it's a huge area of squad building in lower leagues.

    We create dominating sides because this isn't taken into account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krald View Post
    Well, that's a fair enough point to look at it with, but in my experience (I havent played much FM2012, but played lots of 2011 and 2010) it does seem like foreign transfers (like spaniards to BSP) are hard to make due to both scouting reasons, and reluctance of people to move. In terms of people not wanting to move to the other side of the UK, well that's where you go to an iffy area for me. I mean, It's easy to look at nationality and instantly know that one's from "your country" or an adjascent one, which makes it feel manageable even to one who isnt an expert, but to look at birthplace, and they'd have to add a "resides at" field for people who live further afield and guestimate interest based on that isn't that easy, you'd find a lot of people sifting through players, trying to sign them, but getting frustrated at the mass amount of refusals.

    Sure, they could attempt to implement a "based within x miles" filter but that could be quite complicated to implement. All in all it'd be a lot of work to not only implement this "option" but make it something that's engaging to play with. Sure, you can say half-arse it and leave it for enthusiasts, but if you're going to do something, surely you should do it well?
    I can't imagine there are many Scottish and Irish semi-pro footballers on the FM database who happen to live in Wales or England. The few that do play in Wales and England tend to be found by scouts when scouting those countries rather than their own so I don't see a massive problem there. I'm not mental enough to expect 100% accuracy; I just want a higher level of realism and a few tweaks would genuinely help a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bababui View Post
    Not by me nor many others. You can do this yourself in your own game..just sign players by your own rules. Coding these nightmare restrictions would be extremely difficult and would cause many an unforeseen problem. Many people enjoy using the transfer market as their favorite part of the game.
    How I play isn't the problem; it's when Neath, TNS and Llanelli start bringing in loans from the SPL and high quality (for the Welsh league) Irish players who would not consider signing in real life. I know of many South Sea Islanders who have moved to Wales to play for part-time Rugby Union clubs, but that's a different story altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Areas like Glasgow, Merseyside and Lancashire didn't become footballing "hotbeds" overnight. It took decades of "footballing culture" for them to produce multiple professional football clubs.

    The ideal game should be able to do the same thing for Welsh sides, over many decades possibly, and one club cannot do it alone.

    The reality is that if a Welsh side started doing very well, the reputation of the club would rise, the reputation of the league would rise (albeit likely much slower) and the reputation of the country would rise (albeit even slower). As these rise, the regional "limitations" would drop away as playing for the Welsh leagues would be more financially-appealing.

    So I don't think there's a real natural limit (except perhaps a team of Messis), but it will take you a while before you get there.
    You're obviously not from Wales. The three biggest cities in Wales have clubs that play in the English system. From there, Wales is littered with small towns that have small populations, and most small towns in Wales, especially in the more densely populated South, are towns where Rugby Union is the main sport and always will be.

    Due to the reality of Wales, there is a definite limit to how much better the Welsh Premier League can become. Unlike almost every other league in the world, the teams in Wales with the biggest fanbase located in the highest populated areas of the country do not compete in the Welsh leagues. Now, I have been to or actually have lived in four areas where Welsh Premier League sides reside (Neath, Port Talbot [Afan Lido also reside in Port Talbot], Llanelli and Aberystwyth), and can tell you that there isn't the population or the interest for a side to gain any real support base or continental success. In fact it's impossible, and I would like the option for that reality to be included in the game. Of course, this doesn't mean that I want to prevent anyone from doing what they want with the game. I shouldn't have to state this yet again but too many FM players see any calls for realism as a personal attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by !.m.! View Post
    You talk about footballing hotbeds but really there is a lot to it, and the fact is if you look around the premiership or the successful clubs across the country they all are from cities. Areas where there is a much bigger populations, more saturated with footballing facilities and scouting networks. Compare the population of London or Manchester with that of Welsh town and there is a big difference. A higher population, means there are more young players in the region as well as a bigger fanbase. In real life it's very unlikely to see a small town football side become successful for these reasons.

    Then when dealing with countries like Ireland and Wales. You have to consider also how important is football. Compared with England for example. I would argue in those countries Rugby is a more important sport. It's almost a matter of pride. These factors make a difference to the interest in you successes, the players who want to play in those areas.

    Real life football until you are at the top, isn't we can sign anyone good enough for the team, and it's a huge area of squad building in lower leagues.

    We create dominating sides because this isn't taken into account.
    Well said.

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