Should I bother starting a save on FM 2012 or is it too broken?

[S2008]

Reading through some of the threads has made me begin to wonder whether I should bother starting a new save on this game because it sounds horrific. The team talk system is broken, there are far too many injuries and the fact that the add/remove league feature has become a game killer are the reasons that I am wondering if I should just stick to my save on FM 2011?

[mije1983]

I wouldn't say FM12 is too broken.

Team talks work depending on your rep, just as it should. Why should highly paid players care what a rookie manager with no experience says? They are bound to switch off or the talk have no effect.

Regarding injuries I 'm sure I;ve read that they are on a par with real life, the difference being that in FM injuries tend to happen in game which is why you notice it more, whereas IRL a lot of injuries are picked up on the training ground.

With the Add/Remove leagues feature, as you know it could impact your game if you add too many, then just don't add them, or add them at the beginning of the game when you start where it doesn't have an impact.. I wouldn't say it's a game killer as you just need to be sensible.

In short, go for it!

[Erimus1876]

Stick to the default database, don't use team talks, and avoid the add/remove leagues feature like the plague, and you should be good to go

[Super Bladesman]

FM12 is the least broken FM to date ffs. I've never had any problems with the add/remove league feature (though would recommend saving before a new league is actually added in just in case), team talks work perfectly well, and the game is the most polished SI have ever released.

[Erimus1876]

I wouldn't say FM12 is too broken.

Team talks work depending on your rep, just as it should. Why should highly paid players care what a rookie manager with no experience says? They are bound to switch off or the talk have no effect.

Regarding injuries I 'm sure I;ve read that they are on a par with real life, the difference being that in FM injuries tend to happen in game which is why you notice it more, whereas IRL a lot of injuries are picked up on the training ground.

With the Add/Remove leagues feature, as you know it could impact your game if you add too many, then just don't add them, or add them at the beginning of the game when you start where it doesn't have an impact.. I wouldn't say it's a game killer as you just need to be sensible.

In short, go for it!

The problem with the add/remove leagues feature isn't so much when you add them, or how many you add, its the fact that once you use it your database will eventually fill up with thousands of low PA regens. I only added 2 or 3 leagues to my starting database of 19,000 players, 8 seasons later there's 225,000 players in it now. Game is unplayable (or was until I found a 3rd party fix).

I wouldn't recommend using it all to be honest. Not until SI have fixed it.

[bleventozturk]

I critisize the game a lot, from flaws in ME to flawfull transfer system to poor AI, but it is still enjoyable if you are not looking for an A+ game.

If I must compare it to FM 2011, I would say start a new game in FM 2012 because although minor there are some improvements in the AI transfers and squad building and also minor improvements on AI's tactical choices. Those minor improvements make the game a little more challenging and realistic.

I would give FM 2011 a 'B' and FM 2012 a 'B+'.

I think the criticism is harsh because in a version where there was no new ME, people (including me) were expecting a huge improvement in other areas (especially transfer system) and it didn't come unfortunately. But it still is a good game, and to answer your question, a better game than FM2011, worth starting a new game rather than sticking with FM2011 imo.

[mije1983]

The problem with the add/remove leagues feature isn't so much when you add them, or how many you add, its the fact that once you use it your database will eventually fill up with thousands of low PA regens. I only added 2 or 3 leagues to my starting database of 19,000 players, 8 seasons later there's 225,000 players in it now. Game is unplayable (or was until I found a 3rd party fix).

I wouldn't recommend using it all to be honest. Not until SI have fixed it.

When I said add them at the beginning, I meant when you start a new game and select the leagues.

[Erimus1876]

When I said add them at the beginning, I meant when you start a new game and select the leagues.

Ah right. Yes that should be ok. The problems start once you use the feature to add to your starting database.

[AcidBurn]

Nothing wrong with team talks in my opinion, I started with a low reputation and got a job as Norwich manager the team didn't listen much at first but after a season or so they started to take in what I said. This is how it would work in real life with an inexperienced low reputation manager. Once you have a high reputation team talks are absolutely fine.

As has already been said adding leagues really messes the game up by adding tens of thousands of unneeded players. Personally I will start with a lot of leagues and then remove them the further I get in the save. For me FM12 is the best version of FM I couldn't imagine playing any of the older games now.

[RBKalle]

Team talks work depending on your rep, just as it should. Why should highly paid players care what a rookie manager with no experience says? They are bound to switch off or the talk have no effect.

For that matter, why should you walk in at Barcelona or at Man United anyway?

If I can pick up ANY club as I start a new save, the gameworld should recognize me as "good enough" regardless of my starting reputation... Otherwise as a rookie manager I shouldn't be able to choose a Top Club with automatic/sunday league reputation.

I see there was a huge issue with teamtalks working too well and with players with Superb morale playing way above their standard... but SI just adopted the usual "overmedicating" approach, so teamtalks went from "click and win" to "don't bother, they won't listen".

With the Add/Remove leagues feature, as you know it could impact your game if you add too many, then just don't add them, or add them at the beginning of the game when you start where it doesn't have an impact.. I wouldn't say it's a game killer as you just need to be sensible.

So the long-awaited feature, the HOTTEST ADDITION to FM12 shouldn't be used the way it was supposed to be because it's too buggy...

If I have to be "sensible", basically NOT using the add/remove league feature, I'm more or less playing FM11 11.4 or something like that...

[mije1983]

If I can pick up ANY club as I start a new save, the gameworld should recognize me as "good enough" regardless of my starting reputation... Otherwise as a rookie manager I shouldn't be able to choose a Top Club with automatic/sunday league reputation.

Then what would be the point of past experience? I guess by your reply that you would be strongly in favour of SI getting rid of it then as you think you should be good enough regardless?

The starting rep is there for people who want different challenges. If you want a challenge select sunday league, if you want an easier game select international footballer. The game isn't impossible if you take over a big team with no experience (I've done it), but it does make it more of a challenge.

So the long-awaited feature, the HOTTEST ADDITION to FM12 shouldn't be used the way it was supposed to be because it's too buggy...

If I have to be "sensible", basically NOT using the add/remove league feature, I'm more or less playing FM11 11.4 or something like that...

It doesn't automatically kill your game, and I wouldn't say it's the be all and end all of whether you play FM12. I've used the feature (although only 2 leagues) and not noticed any issue , and I'm now 10 years into that save, but I know it is a problem. I'm sure if I had started with more leagues at the beginning then I would have felt it more.

[marty78]

Team talks are fine, injuries are fine but add/remove leagues is bugged i'm afraid.

[AcidBurn]

I have edited your post no need to swear on the forums.

[GazTheDoood]

Play the game and determine your own opinion, don't take what everyone says on here as gospel. Just get stuck in.

[Coentrao]

The game is fine though i never used the add/remove leagues feature so i didn't know it was bugged.

Everything else is fine in my opinion.

[AcidBurn]

Play the game and determine your own opinion, don't take what everyone says on here as gospel. Just get stuck in.

Probably the best advice so far, these forums can put people off at times but there are a lot of people that never post on here because they are happy with the game.

[marty78]

I have edited your post no need to swear on the forums.

Ooops - Apologies

[Kenco]

Probably the best advice so far, these forums can put people off at times but there are a lot of people that never post on here because they are happy with the game.

Exactly this. For every one complaint on here, there are probably 1000 satisfied customers.

[BiggusD]

Then what would be the point of past experience? I guess by your reply that you would be strongly in favour of SI getting rid of it then as you think you should be good enough regardless?

The starting rep is there for people who want different challenges. If you want a challenge select sunday league, if you want an easier game select international footballer. The game isn't impossible if you take over a big team with no experience (I've done it), but it does make it more of a challenge.



It doesn't automatically kill your game, and I wouldn't say it's the be all and end all of whether you play FM12. I've used the feature (although only 2 leagues) and not noticed any issue , and I'm now 10 years into that save, but I know it is a problem. I'm sure if I had started with more leagues at the beginning then I would have felt it more.

Yes starting as International Footballer is nice and all, but you still start out as a manager with zero prior experience so it will still take a few major titles before the largest teams in the game starts listening to you. It sounds okay in theory, but in practice the game is actively sabotaging your efforts indefinitely (if you don't win something). That is poor game design, not "difficulty". If SI truly wanted the game to be more challenging, they would have made sure that the AI managers actually use the features in the game properly instead of making the game unplayable the first 30-50 playing hours.

[milnerpoint]

I have used the add remove leagues thing to add a few leagues into my game, i havent noticed any issues 25 seasons in so far, what exactly happens?

[AcidBurn]

Adds too many players when adding leagues. It is a problem SI have acknowledged in another thread.

[milnerpoint]

I'm not denying its a problem, just i hadnt noticed it in my game or read about it. Whats the dangers, will it slow the game down too much later on? Will removing leagues make any difference?

[Apos]

Exactly this. For every one complaint on here, there are probably 1000 satisfied customers.

And this come from certified statistics I suppose?

A satisfied customer doesn't mean that a product is necessarily good. It means that is good enough for that individual. Each person has different standards on what to expect from giving away his money,so no,you don't prove that the game is good.

And if for every complaint there were 1000 satisfied customers,then that means FM has sold at least a couple million copies...Hmm,let's see...with that amount of income I'm even more unsatisfied and I expect to see much more than absolutely no fully functioning features than last year and zero polishing on the already existant features.

See? It's all a matter of perceptive. If 3/4 of the american citizens are satisfied with their goverments war politics,that doesn't mean it's good as well.

[hursty2]

I've had no problems adding leagues.

[AcidBurn]

I'm not denying its a problem, just i hadnt noticed it in my game or read about it. Whats the dangers, will it slow the game down too much later on? Will removing leagues make any difference?

My game started with around 50,000 players and after adding and removing a few leagues by the time I got to 2020 there were 150,000 players in the database. It made the game run too slow for my liking and the challenge I was doing would have required me to add a few more leagues. Removing them might help a little bit but I when I removed them I noticed no difference.

[milnerpoint]

My game started with around 50,000 players and after adding and removing a few leagues by the time I got to 2020 there were 150,000 players in the database. It made the game run too slow for my liking and the challenge I was doing would have required me to add a few more leagues. Removing them might help a little bit but I when I removed them I noticed no difference.

Cheers man ill keep my eye on it! I did start with a big database anyway so i might not notice it as much, plus i got an extra 2 gb or ram added not long ago so i guess i prob wouldnt notice a slow down as much as i might have done.
Does it add tons of players that will play for teams, or is it tons of very low PA players that will do nothing but clog up the database?
Sorry for the questions its not something i have read up on at all!

[marty78]

I'm not denying its a problem, just i hadnt noticed it in my game or read about it. Whats the dangers, will it slow the game down too much later on? Will removing leagues make any difference?

Yeah it will slow the game down but I by the time I noticed a difference the database had already increased significantly. It was only when I went to the player search, which I don't usually use, and noticed how long it took to load up that I realised something wasn't right. I then removed a bunch of leagues and then checked back after those leagues had become inactive but the player count remained roughly the same.

I was told that, after time, the database would decrease as players began to retire but it would not be quick. My plan was to use FMRTE to retire players but because of the spelling mistakes on the start screen I am not willing to trust that on a ten season save. Luckily for me my save is still playable if a little slow.

To be fair though, I would still add a league but in the knowledge that my database will increase.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah it will slow the game down but I by the time I noticed a difference the database had already increased significantly. It was only when I went to the player search, which I don't usually use, and noticed how long it took to load up that I realised something wasn't right. I then removed a bunch of leagues and then checked back after those leagues had become inactive but the player count remained roughly the same.

I was told that, after time, the database would decrease as players began to retire but it would not be quick. My plan was to use FMRTE to retire players but because of the spelling mistakes on the start screen I am not willing to trust that on a ten season save. Luckily for me my save is still playable if a little slow.

To be fair though, I would still add a league but in the knowledge that my database will increase.

Is it likely to slow the game to a crawl or crash it eventually? I dont really mind it processing a bit slow, and i dont use the player search feature at all anyway so as long as it doesnt crash i dont think ill notice it too much.

[marty78]

Is it likely to slow the game to a crawl or crash it eventually? I dont really mind it processing a bit slow, and i dont use the player search feature at all anyway so as long as it doesnt crash i dont think ill notice it too much.

Well, I have since started another save which I tend to play more often and there is a clear difference in processing time but I have not had any crashes as yet. I don't normally use player search either but if I did then I wouldn't anymore as it takes far too long. It is playable though but I just wish I had known the repurcussions of adding leagues a bit earlier.

[milnerpoint]

Fair enough, cheers for the info man

[RBKalle]

BTW how do you get players to retire via FMRTE?

I don't think there's an option to retire them forcibly, so the best I can come up with is either setting CA,PA and reputation to 1, or their age to 50...

[marty78]

BTW how do you get players to retire via FMRTE?

I don't think there's an option to retire them forcibly, so the best I can come up with is either setting CA,PA and reputation to 1, or their age to 50...

I was told to do it exactly how you said, changing age and CA but can't confirm it works.

[milnerpoint]

changing age should push through retirement quickly, especially if you do it before xmas by the end of that season most of them should retire.

[AcidBurn]

If you don't use the player search then you will just end up with a slow processing game. The speed of FM depends on what you are used to, I play quick and start my games with no more than 55,000 players for me that is quick enough. Some people added over 100,000 players and the speed is fine for them, that's why I dislike the how many leagues can I run on this PC threads.

[Erimus1876]

Here's what I did.

Searched for players with a maximium PA of 80.

This brought up 113,000 players out of 225,000 that were in my database.

I used the mass edit feature to make all those players 99 years old, expired all their contracts, reduced their CA & PA's to 10, and their reputations and attributes to 1 (so no one would resign them).

After 2 weeks game time over 50,000 of them had gone, making my game playable again.

It seems if I can keep my database below 200,000 players my game works fine, anything over that and it crashes everytime I try to play a match.


I'd only use this method if you're unable to play your game because of constant crashes. Basically use it as a last restort because I don't know if there will be any side effects further down the line yet, its too early to tell.

Back up your saved game first!

[milnerpoint]

Were most of those players attached to clubs or free agents?
The only thing i would be worried about would be getting rid of tons of lower league squads and the game trying to replace them, but im not quite sure how the game would handle that. I might have a look later on at my save.
I dont think the processing speed will bother me too much, as long as it doesnt indefinitely keep adding tons of players.....

[Erimus1876]

Cheers man ill keep my eye on it! I did start with a big database anyway so i might not notice it as much, plus i got an extra 2 gb or ram added not long ago so i guess i prob wouldnt notice a slow down as much as i might have done.
Does it add tons of players that will play for teams, or is it tons of very low PA players that will do nothing but clog up the database?
Sorry for the questions its not something i have read up on at all!

It seems to add players to teams in countries you never even added.

For example, teams from countries like Kazakhstan (I've never added them) have proper players in them on my game, not just the "grey" players like they should. These proper players all have histories that seem to be constantly updated, along with their attributes too. If you can imagine all these players taking up processing time to update their histories and attributes its easy to see big problems will be inevitable sooner or later. It makes no sense to have proper players in leagues that were never loaded, either in your original start database, or added later.

I mentioned this on another thread but I suspect the add/remove leagues feature is adding thousands of players to teams not even in your starting database or added by you at a later date. Surely it should only add players to clubs from the nations you add?

[Erimus1876]

Were most of those players attached to clubs or free agents?
The only thing i would be worried about would be getting rid of tons of lower league squads and the game trying to replace them, but im not quite sure how the game would handle that. I might have a look later on at my save.
I dont think the processing speed will bother me too much, as long as it doesnt indefinitely keep adding tons of players.....

The players were a mixture, some were attached to clubs, some were free agents etc. I think its a case of plugging the dam as best you can. You're effectively removing a large chunk of players from the game but the game will eventually replace them anyway.

Like I said, if you can use this method once a season to keep the number of players below the recommended threashold (175K I think) then everything seems ok... at least it has on mine so far.

[milnerpoint]

Cool ill have a look later on tonight, i dont suppose the smaller teams not having players makes a huge difference, i just play in scotland and when you get to the third division a PA of 80 is quite good so i dont want to take all the players away from them, but at the same time if its going to avoid any problems further on it will be worth it. I actually have no idea how many players are in my game i havent looked at the player search in about 10 seasons, ive always found that page a bit of a nightmare to work through.

[Erimus1876]

Here's an example of what I mean.

I picked a club at random.

This is a club from San Marino (a nation not in my starting db, or added later).

They should be made up of virtual "grey" players that have very little impact on processing times.

But as you can see, they are proper players whose stats, history, and attributes, are "real" and constantly being updated week after week...




And this is this clubs sole contribution to my gameworld this season....




They played 2 games.

Yet for the rest of this season all their players stats etc will be constantly updated with make-believe statistics.

That team (along with 1000's of others not in loaded leagues in my game) should be full of grey players that don't take up processing time by having their stats constantly updated week after week.

[milnerpoint]

Any idea why it activates certain clubs and not others? I have come across loads of teams full of grey players but i dont look that often so what your describing is prob happening in my save as well.

[Erimus1876]

I don't know why its activating players from teams not even loaded, or why some have full squads of real players and some only half and half.

I'd like others to check their own games though and post here if its the same on theirs, so I know for sure its not just my saved game this is happening on.

[dafuge]

That club is also full of real players for me, but I've not added/removed any leagues.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah ill have a look through some teams tonight bud and let you know what i find, i cant believe its just your game tho, it must be spread across anyone who has used the add/remove feature.

[Erimus1876]

That club is also full of real players for me, but I've not added/removed any leagues.

Was it like that on FM11? I'm sure these type of smallish non-loaded clubs were full of grey players?

Maybe this is unrelated to the mass-generated low PA players the add/remove league feature seems create then.

[Mark67539]

How do you find out how many players are currently in your game's database?

[Erimus1876]

Yeah ill have a look through some teams tonight bud and let you know what i find, i cant believe its just your game tho, it must be spread across anyone who has used the add/remove feature.

Cheers

[milnerpoint]

What did you use as a set up for your game? Did you tell the game to load any players or anything like that?

[Erimus1876]

No. I just used the standard medium database and England was the only nation ticked.

10 seasons later I've added and removed Holland, Italy, and Spain (1st divisions), and removed leagues from England below the conference and I have/had 225,000 players in the game - 10 times more than when I started yet with less leagues active now. With many non-active clubs like the San Marino one posted above full of proper players too. But going by what dafuge says, its possible the smaller non-loaded clubs have real players anyway, so that could be unrelated to the add/remove league feature creating too many players.

[milnerpoint]

I assuming it works differently now to what it used to, because your right in previous versions these teams would not have real players in them unless you told the game to load them. Is it maybe a case of if they are in a european comp at any level they will get a full team of players?

[tomtuck01]

My god this thread has the most ridiculous OP i've read on these forums in a long time.

Yes the game issues, as does every other game that is ever made. You're only going found out if it's worth it if you try it yourself.

Also i wouldnt believe most of the people who bang on about problems with the game. Those people are usually just in denial about how rubbish they are at the game and would claim it is "fixed" than admit the obvious truth.

[Erimus1876]

I assuming it works differently now to what it used to, because your right in previous versions these teams would not have real players in them unless you told the game to load them. Is it maybe a case of if they are in a european comp at any level they will get a full team of players?

It could be new for FM12 then, as I don't think it was like that in last years game. I'm actually glad if thats the case then as it makes European matches better and more competative if these little clubs use real players from now on, but only if the add/remove option is fixed, otherwise its just another burden on processing times.

[marty78]

I picked two african clubs at random from different nations and both have full squad lists and no greys.

[dafuge]

Was it like that on FM11? I'm sure these type of smallish non-loaded clubs were full of grey players?

I've no idea, but my initial database had a few extra players loaded which could be a reason for me having them.

My initial database was about 44k, my player search now shows 40k so it doesn't look like it has expanded at all (which makes sense seeing as I've not added/removed any leagues).

[milnerpoint]

My god this thread has the most ridiculous OP i've read on these forums in a long time .

Yes the game issues, as does every other game that is ever made. You're only going found out if it's worth it if you try it yourself.

Also i wouldnt believe most of the people who bang on about problems with the game. Those people are usually just in denial about how rubbish they are at the game and would claim it is " fixed" than admit the obvious truth.

Yeah its a good point, you will notice the same posters in all of these threads making the problems seem bigger than they are, i honestly have played this game every day since it came out, im yet to have a mental breakdown because my centre back was 5 yards out of position, or because Ronaldo doesnt score every 30 yard shot he attempts. Its a game, a very good game, but its always going to have issues and things not quite right, if your looking for a perfect game, i would give up playing video games and find monopoly.

[Erimus1876]

How do you find out how many players are currently in your game's database?

You'll need something like fmrte, or possibly genie scout (never used the latter so can't say for sure).

[milnerpoint]

It could be new for FM12 then, as I don't think it was like that in last years game. I'm actually glad if thats the case then as it makes European matches better and more competative if these little clubs use real players from now on, but only if the add/remove option is fixed, otherwise its just another burden on processing times.

Haha this thread has inspired me to walk home in the rain for lunch and check it out!

[Erimus1876]

I picked two african clubs at random from different nations and both have full squad lists and no greys.

Cheers marty.

Have you used the add/remove leagues option in your game?

[scott MUFC]

you can only load south africa.
game puts random players in, newgens etc at the start.
it gets interesting when you get random U20 internationals at no club whatsoever

[Kenco]

And this come from certified statistics I suppose?

A satisfied customer doesn't mean that a product is necessarily good. It means that is good enough for that individual. Each person has different standards on what to expect from giving away his money,so no,you don't prove that the game is good.

And if for every complaint there were 1000 satisfied customers,then that means FM has sold at least a couple million copies...Hmm,let's see...with that amount of income I'm even more unsatisfied and I expect to see much more than absolutely no fully functioning features than last year and zero polishing on the already existant features.

See? It's all a matter of perceptive. If 3/4 of the american citizens are satisfied with their goverments war politics,that doesn't mean it's good as well.

Seriously??

No I wasn't quoting actual statistics as that would be nigh on impossible, it was just a general theory that the people complaining about certain features are in the minority, whilst the majority of customers don't post on here. Perhaps I should have said 1 vs 10,000 or even 1 vs 100,000. If you want the actual figures, I suggest doing a survey.

Also, I think you mean perspective rather than perceptive.

[milnerpoint]

You'll need something like fmrte, or possibly genie scout (never used the latter so can't say for sure).

how do you check with FMRTE?

[Marinho]

how do you check with FMRTE?

upon loading the game look at the bottom of the screen, it will show how many players (and staff and clubs) are in the game

[milnerpoint]

haha id never noticed that.
Strange, my game says i only have 70246 players and 20982 staff, i started with England to league 2, scotland to division 3, spain to league 2, germany to league 2 and italy to league 2 loaded at the start, i have since added croatia to league 2 then took off league 2 when my feeder team was promoted, same with romania and i added and removed portugal and holland, then added the top league in holland again, so it doesnt seem like its messed up my numbers, id have expected a lot more than that by what ive read on here, would also explain why my game hasnt slowed down at all.

[marty78]

Cheers marty.

Have you used the add/remove leagues option in your game?

Yes, I have added/removed quite a few leagues over 10 years and have gone from 30k(IIRC) to 170k.

[bolulu]

This game is not broken. It runs very well with surprisingly few bugs.
I add & remove leagues (never add more than I delete) & have nnever had any problems.
Sure there are too many goals from corners, but that's always been there.
Sure the team talks/press conferences are a waste of space, so don't use them!
Play the game OP, it's fine!

[AcidBurn]

I know this test is not complete proof I started a game with a small database and only England loaded this told me there would be 7,000 players in my game. I managed Man United and went to the player search which told me there was 6451 players and 3190 staff. I then added Brazil, MLS, South Africa and Spain using the add/remove league feature when I go to the player search there are now 40,746 and 7,544 staff.

If I start a new game with England, small database and the leagues I added there are only 16,451 players and 5,467 on the staff or 27,000 according to the starting screen.

Like I said I know this is not definitive proof but adding the leagues mid game add a hell of a lot more players than it does if you load these leagues in the first place.

[RBKalle]

Yeah its a good point, you will notice the same posters in all of these threads making the problems seem bigger than they are, i honestly have played this game every day since it came out, im yet to have a mental breakdown because my centre back was 5 yards out of position, or because Ronaldo doesnt score every 30 yard shot he attempts. Its a game, a very good game, but its always going to have issues and things not quite right, if your looking for a perfect game, i would give up playing video games and find monopoly.

Oh come on...

Stop pretending those who complain do so just because they suck at FM or are nitpicking about marginal aspects of the game.

Here we're talking about the Top New Feature being broken to the point of making a savegame unplayable when used! And then there are problems we've been dealing with for years despite having reported them over and over again. (AI transfers, AI managers appointments etc)


So I find dishonest lumping all those legit criticism together with trivial stuff like "I can't win, the game is cheating".

The OP asked for advice, and some gave a honest and not-so-flattering opinion. The game IS playable, enjoyable and everything, but it has flaws, HUGE flaws that can't be ignored.

[milnerpoint]

Are people with huge databases adding leagues in different continents? I'm just thinking all the leagues i had added and removed have been in Europe, but maybe adding from other continents are adding huge numbers of players because of that?

[marty78]

Are people with huge databases adding leagues in different continents? I'm just thinking all the leagues i had added and removed have been in Europe, but maybe adding from other continents are adding huge numbers of players because of that?

Yes but only Brazil and Argentina from outside Europe.

EDIT - I must add that I abused this feature somewhat in that I changed leagues around every season for about 5 seasons without realising the impact. That is probably why I'm not more annoyed by it.

[AcidBurn]

Are people with huge databases adding leagues in different continents? I'm just thinking all the leagues i had added and removed have been in Europe, but maybe adding from other continents are adding huge numbers of players because of that?

I think adding different continents could be part of the problem if you start a save with a large database and Brazil only the player will differ from a large database and only England loaded. When adding a new league the game should only add players from that league my example above proves that is not what is happening.

I was looking forward to playing FM12 mainly because of this feature. I do a challenge where I move from continent to continent trying to win the Champions League on each. When I heard this feature I thought it would enhance my game meaning I could start with 10 leagues in Asia and upon winning the Asian CL could remove those leagues and add a bunch of South American ones. This is impossible without using FMRTE which I do not want to use, I have never been as disappointed with a feature in any FM as I am with this poorly implemented joke of a feature.

[Marinho]

haha id never noticed that.
Strange, my game says i only have 70246 players and 20982 staff, i started with England to league 2, scotland to division 3, spain to league 2, germany to league 2 and italy to league 2 loaded at the start, i have since added croatia to league 2 then took off league 2 when my feeder team was promoted, same with romania and i added and removed portugal and holland, then added the top league in holland again, so it doesnt seem like its messed up my numbers, id have expected a lot more than that by what ive read on here, would also explain why my game hasnt slowed down at all.

did you add them from scratch of were they "view only" leagues at the start ? Did you load any aditional players at the start ? What number did you start with ?

Might help get to the bottom of this.

I started with England 1-3, Germany 1+2, Spain 1+2, France 1, Italy 1 as playable, a bunch of europeans countries and brazil/Argentina as view only. Loaded all top division players from europe as well as argentina/brazil as well as all national team players from Europe and South America. DB size was about 65k, then it went down to about 60k and stayed there until 2015. Then i saved my game and created a backup to test it out by adding the netherlands and 2 months later DB size was allready up to 80K, am going to run a holiday later tonight till april (regen dates passed) to see where it then stands.

[milnerpoint]

Acid can you do me a favour, since im back at work and not at my fm, can you load a game with the set up i have further up and tell me how many players it should load? If you cant be bothered its cool ill do a comparison later on, just really out of interest. I would have used a large database as well when starting up.

[milnerpoint]

did you add them from scratch of were they "view only" leagues at the start ? Did you load any aditional players at the start ? What number did you start with ?

Might help get to the bottom of this.

I started with England 1-3, Germany 1+2, Spain 1+2, France 1, Italy 1 as playable, a bunch of europeans countries and brazil/Argentina as view only. Loaded all top division players from europe as well as argentina/brazil as well as all national team players from Europe and South America. DB size was about 65k, then it went down to about 60k and stayed there until 2014. Then adding the netherlands and 2 months later DB size was allready up to 80K, am going to run a holiday till april (regen dates passed) to see where it then stands.

The leagues at the start were full detail and the leagues added were not loaded at the start, Holland maybe was i cant quite remember, i messed around with the feature when it was first out just to see how it worked. Croatia and Romania and Portugal were def not added at the start. I didnt load any players and used a large database, but i dont know what numbers that gives. In summary:

Scotland to division 3
England to league 2
Spain to league 2
Italy to league 2
Germany to league 2
Holland division 1 (maybe at the start then removed then added back in)
Portugal to league 1 added then removed
Romania to league 2 then just league 1
Croatia the same
Large database
no players added.

Game is sitting around 70k players right now and 20k staff, almost every player will be regen staff will be mixed.

[Erimus1876]

The add/remove feature only becomes a problem once your database exceeds the recommended amount, which I think is 175,000 players. So some people who haven't reached that point yet won't experience the problems others have.

Thats my take on it anyway.

What will become a problem for everyone is if the game keeps generating players for leagues you've removed. If that happens, it doesn't matter wether you start with a small, medium, or large db, or never add more than you remove, you'll eventually end up with a bloated db that grinds to a halt, or crashes often.

Thats the question I'd like answering. Are players being constantly generated for leagues that were once added, but then removed? I haven't played long enough since edting my db with fmrte to say one way or the other yet. I hope not as it'll mean I'll have to use fmrte every season to strip out thousands of low PA regens.

[AcidBurn]

Acid can you do me a favour, since im back at work and not at my fm, can you load a game with the set up i have further up and tell me how many players it should load? If you cant be bothered its cool ill do a comparison later on, just really out of interest. I would have used a large database as well when starting up.

England to league 2, scotland to division 3, spain to league 2, germany to league 2 and italy to league 2 at the start has 29,000 players with a large database. Even if you add Holland, Romania, Croatia and Portugal at the start you would only start the game with 46,000 players.

So loading the leagues with the add/remove feature means a lot more players are added to the game then if you start with the leagues loaded.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah so it has still added a lot of extra players, for some reason i thought that set up would have had more players in it. Ill need to keep an eye on how the database size is for the next few seasons.

[AcidBurn]

Yeah so it has still added a lot of extra players, for some reason i thought that set up would have had more players in it. Ill need to keep an eye on how the database size is for the next few seasons.

It just really annoys me, England with a large database is 12,000 players at the start, if I add Brazil at the start it goes to 17,000. If I added Brazil with this feature it would go to 25,000.

[milnerpoint]

One other quick question, does the database numbers at the start include staff? If not my game will have added about 40,000 extra people altogether.

[AcidBurn]

Not sure, I think it might be just players.

[Marinho]

The number at the start is only players, checked that early on myself. From what i can tell the number of staff doesn´t go up when using the feature as by default there´s a lot of staff added (especially if you tick the box to add them), that looks to be a non issue.

[milnerpoint]

Not sure, I think it might be just players.

Still its a hell of an increase for adding small nations if it is.
I honestly hadnt noticed this until today, my game runs slower than it did at the start but thats to be expected 25 years in, its not any slower than i would have expected by now. I have had the leagues added for the best part of 15 seasons now as well, not touched it since i got my last feeder club in Croatia.

[milnerpoint]

One other thing actually, sorry for all the posts, at what point of the season are people checking on the database size? Will it make a difference if its around the time regens are made?

[Marinho]

Still its a hell of an increase for adding small nations if it is.
I honestly hadnt noticed this until today, my game runs slower than it did at the start but thats to be expected 25 years in, its not any slower than i would have expected by now. I have had the leagues added for the best part of 15 seasons now as well, not touched it since i got my last feeder club in Croatia.

that´s actually semi-encouraging to me as 46K---->70K 25 years in with a couple of added/removed leagues seems at least manageable. I only want to add the Netherlands (as i took over the national team and plan to manager there in a couple years as well), it went from 60K to 80K. If that´s all it is and/or it regulates itself (your numbers seem to suggest one or the other compared to numbers we had in different topics where it was often a massive short-term spike in numbers that was worrisome, for me as well in an earlier save).
So there´s at least some hope for me personally, maybe throw in a couple thousand forced retirements via fmrte.

Like i said, i´ll try to run a holiday save tonight from 2015 on to see how it develops adding 1 country.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah my game could maybe suggest that the increase is a short term spike and not a long term thing that gradually increases. From what i remember the game tries to keep a level number of players as it progresses, so if that still works then in the long term my database maybe wont expand any further, but the increase would have happened when i added the leagues 15 seasons ago. Im just at the start of a new season, so ill have a look at the end of the season, prob by this weekend and see what the numbers say.

[AcidBurn]

I think the it's more of a problem adding countries from other continents.

[Marinho]

some interesting initial numbers, taken in June and then directly after the new league was added (dutch first division)

total players before after 61424/72783

regens before after 30638/30304 (so there´s less regens now after initially adding the league)

england : regens 2476 ---- 2566 real players 1817/ 2652

netherlands : 471 --- 641 / 718 --- 1952

brazil : 465 --- 540 / 1114 --- 1566 (!)

russia : 684 --- 704 / 460 --- 471

why does the game "regenerates" 800 english players when i add the dutch Erdivisie ?


total players through the months (allways on the 7th), major regen dates stated :


september 76441 (sweden and asian countries)
october 84245 (brazil and african countries)
november 84719 (no league i´ve loaded)
december 84670 (no league i´ve loaded
january 84672
february (middle america) 85631
march (smaller europan countries) 87315
april (most major european countries and argentina) 111059

june 15th : 106867
July 15th : 106843

regen players before adding and after april 5th : 30636/72343

it´´s distributed pretty much in line with the initial numbers, it seems as if the game adds regens for every country, basically acting as if you´ve added every possible league (f.e. the number of english regens went up from 2600 to 4600)

so basically the initial adding of players somewhat works (except that it adds too many in nations where it shouldn´t do that) but after that it just goes haywire ... And remember, this is just 1 league added ! And not from scratch, but view only with all players loaded.


on the positive side of things, it didn´t apear to slow down the sim. Of course that was a holiday sim with me jobless and everything on no detail, but still.

[Marinho]

simming a 2nd season now to see how it looks after that.

[Bababui]

My god this thread has the most ridiculous OP i've read on these forums in a long time.

Yes the game issues, as does every other game that is ever made. You're only going found out if it's worth it if you try it yourself.

Also i wouldnt believe most of the people who bang on about problems with the game. Those people are usually just in denial about how rubbish they are at the game and would claim it is "fixed" than admit the obvious truth.

What does this have to do with the OP? You are trolling.

[Marinho]

the game keeps on adding players in season 2.

september 110k
october 116k

so basically the same sort of increases than in the first year.

[marty78]

I'm watching my game carefully and have gone from 172,000 to 182,000 from september to december. If anymore players are added in Jan I fear for my save. I've only got a laptop.

[AcidBurn]

The only benefit of this feature is to remove leagues from what I can see.

[marty78]

Sad but true. I'm trying to edit out loads of players and I think that is my last chance for this save.

[Erimus1876]

Would be nice if SI commented on this.

Will it be fixed, or is 12.2.2 the last ever patch for this years game?

If its not going to be fixed I may as well start a new game and avoid using the add/remove leagues feature altogether. Having to relying on a third party program to salvage our saves is a real let down considering one of the biggest selling points of FM12 for some people was this feature.

[Barside]

I doubt there will be any further patching of FM12, SI will be deep into the final development of 13 by now.

[tomtuck01]

What does this have to do with the OP? You are trolling.

Please, don't embarrass yourself.

[BiggusD]

Please, don't embarrass yourself.

Look who's talking. What are you even talking about?

[tomtuck01]

Look who's talking. What are you even talking about?

Read what I initially posted, the clue is in there.

[Cleon]

Let's not ruin another thread please. Cut it out.

[Landris]

I load all the players from all the continents at the start of the game, 305000, so am I correct in assuming that adding/removing leagues will have no drawbacks for me?

[BiggusD]

Read what I initially posted, the clue is in there.

What you initially posted was off-topic and nonsense. Have you even read the discussion? What the hell has success to do with anything?

The OP asked three questions, really. Are team talks broken, are there too many injuries and is the add/remove leagues feature broken. The answers are yes (as a result of the silly starting reputation feature), no and yes.

Do you have arguments, or are you just going to stick your head in the sand and mumble rubbish?