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Thread: How much would you value Mikel Arteta at start of 2013/14?

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    Default How much would you value Mikel Arteta at start of 2013/14?

    Don't like to moan about the idocy that the AI can have when determining value of a player, as I understand there is often a good reason why, say Dortmund want £90M for Gotze, as it's a 'he's not for sale, but if you're stupid enough..' price; but slightly dumfounded that Arsenal are willing to ask soo much for a 31 year old that hasn't averaged above 6.80 in the last two seasons.

    Managing Athletic Bilbao, so Arteta is a one of the best players that are available to the club despite his age, and was delighted to see him that he's now a realistic target. So I set about the negotiations with Arsenal. First off an enquiry, which has bluntly rejected, then a speculative bid of £7.5M. His market value is claimed to be £5M as you can see, with just under 2 years left on his contract, so wasn't expecting to pick up him up for anything below £10M - so wasn't too suprised that the £7.5M bid was rejected. I've been given a sizeable transfer budget this year of £32.5M and am in a strong financial position that is only going to get stronger now that I am competing in the Champions League, and with ready made first team players of Arteta's quality I was happy to pay over the odds that you would normaly settle for. So I upped the ante and went for £20M. Now I know that this is way over the odds anybody would usually be willing to pay for a 31-year old of sub-world class quality that Arteta would be. So to my suprise when this bid was rejected, as well as following bids of £25M, £30M, £40M. After £25M I pretty much gave up, he's not worth that by a long shot. But carried on to see what laughable price Arsenal are willing to sell him for, currenly up to £50M, which was rejected, and have put another bid in for £55M, and will carry on.

    He is in Arsenal's first team, so I can understand their keeness to keep hold of him, but they also have Aaron Ramsey, Jack Wilshere, Alex Song; all of whome are younger, and over the past two seasons out-perfromed Arteta by a long mile. Personally, even with a reluctance to sell the guy I'd value him at around £17.5-£25M; certainly not £50M>. Totally absurd.


    Mikel Arteta (Overview_ Attributes) by TRichardsss, on Flickr

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    Next batch of news items after the £55M bid they come back with this £153M??!!


    Tom Richards (News_ Inbox) by TRichardsss, on Flickr

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    You need to read between the lines. What Arsenal are really saying is that he's not for sale at any price.

    That being said, given Arteta's age, you'd think they'd be at least a little moved once you got towards £12m-£15m.

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    I have read the lines, and am fully aware of teams warding off interest with high sale prices. Just this seemed to be an extraordinary case, and overly unrealistic. As you say, given his age and recent perfromances, no team would value this player at such a level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tommonufc View Post
    I have read the lines, and am fully aware of teams warding off interest with high sale prices. Just this seemed to be an extraordinary case, and overly unrealistic. As you say, given his age and recent perfromances, no team would value this player at such a level.
    I wouldn't say it was unrealistic to quote a stupid price if you don't want to sell a player. Most of the time, we don't really know, in real life, what's said between clubs in private, so it's a bit of a guess.

    Like you say, it play hardball like this over an ageing Arteta does seem a bit extreme.

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    i do the exact same thing when asked by the AI for players i don´t want to sell, in fact i actually did this as Arsenal when Athletic came asking

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike7077 View Post
    I wouldn't say it was unrealistic to quote a stupid price if you don't want to sell a player. Most of the time, we don't really know, in real life, what's said between clubs in private, so it's a bit of a guess.

    Like you say, it play hardball like this over an ageing Arteta does seem a bit extreme.
    Even Dortmund and Lille don't have the tenacity to qoute anywhere near £150M for Gotze and Hazard. Now in real life, I can imagine negotiations would look at the worth and value he has to the side, the length of his contract and Arteta's age; now I'm not seeing any of these considerations being taken into account in this instance. Maybe I have found an extraordinary case; I respect the fact that Santos want £80M for Neymar etc etc. and in previous saves I've payed over the odds of my determined 'value' of a player, but there must be some actions that can be taken in the game that this sort of instance doesn't happen to such an extent. Now I didn't intend this to be another moaning thread that GD has often been filled with, but maybe the transfer system within the game could be improved somehow to real in the 'hands of fee' that clubs are sending to prespective buyers. Dortmund qouting you £90-110M for a young Mario Gotze seems a perfectly reasonable 'hands of fee', he has a good 10-15 years of service in him, but a 31-year old, that in 18months will be available to go on a free, surely something can be done here

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    Dortmund and Lille are prepared to sell both those players, though. Well, certainly Lille are. Dortmund will probably know they have to let go of Gotze eventually. No point quoting £150m for players you're prepared to sell. Both clubs will certainly do their best to get the best possible price, though.

    In any case, I agree that actually being to have the £150m conversation with Arsenal might be unrealistic. I don't know - because, as I said, we don't know what is said between clubs in private - whether it ever really happens like that. The principle is right, though. But just to reiterate, I'm also with you on being surprised Arsenal would play such hardball over Arteta at that age.

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    In all honesty, with his age, I'd think that Arsenal should accept ~£25m-£30m for Arteta. By then, Wilshere and various other Arsenal kids should have been able to step up and £25m + £10.1m wages should be more than enough to snap up another younger midfielder.

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    People moaned when the AI would just flat refuse a bid as they claimed a club would listen if silly money was thrown at them, so now the AI ask for silly money when they dont want to lose a player, and people are still unhappy..............

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    It's not even a case that I'm trying to prise away thier best player. Statistcally he's been nothing more than average, which, you would like to think, make the AI Arsenal realise he isn't one of the key memebers of the side. Obviously this sort of in game infortmation isn't taken into any consideration when determining the sale value of a player. Mehh, I'll just wait 12 months and hope he doesn't sign a contract extension and I should be able to get him at least half the £150M

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    People moaned when the AI would just flat refuse a bid as they claimed a club would listen if silly money was thrown at them, so now the AI ask for silly money when they dont want to lose a player, and people are still unhappy..............
    Yeah, you're right. Spot on, as far as I'm concerned.

    However, silly money for a player in his 30s who isn't a club legend they could never part with should be lower than what he's had to go up to.

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    Arteta have been important for Arsenal this season but they would gladly sell him for 15-20M in two years.

    But i guess it's hard for the AI to reproduce human common sense.

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    All it says to me is Arsenal are not going to co-operate, so move onto another target, there will be plenty of times in real life where clubs are out priced for a player purely because the team that currently owns the player is not interested in selling, but when pushed they throw a crazy price they know no one will pay.

    There is nothing wrong with the AI wanting to hang onto Arteta, even at that age he will still be an asset for the season in the EPL, and we have no idea from the OP how the rest of their squad is coming along, have any of the other midfielders had injuries in the last season that has set them back in terms of development?

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    People moaned when the AI would just flat refuse a bid as they claimed a club would listen if silly money was thrown at them, so now the AI ask for silly money when they dont want to lose a player, and people are still unhappy..............
    I agree with you on the most part, and haven't intened this to be another thread that is just set out too moan blunty at clubs asking too much for their players. I understand that this high price is used to ward off interest, but surely the game allowing this sort of price to be qouted for the sort of player surely highlights deficiencies in the transfer system that is used in the game. Now I don't confess to have all the answers to this, but maybe some sort of valuations on determing factors such as age, performance, squad strength in position, market value, contract length etc. could be taken into consideration to arrive at a realistic valuation that could be given, even if that price is one to ward of interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    All it says to me is Arsenal are not going to co-operate, so move onto another target, there will be plenty of times in real life where clubs are out priced for a player purely because the team that currently owns the player is not interested in selling, but when pushed they throw a crazy price they know no one will pay.

    There is nothing wrong with the AI wanting to hang onto Arteta, even at that age he will still be an asset for the season in the EPL, and we have no idea from the OP how the rest of their squad is coming along, have any of the other midfielders had injuries in the last season that has set them back in terms of development?
    so your saying that arsenal wouldnt accept a bid of 55million for arteta? how much did they sell fabregas for again?.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    All it says to me is Arsenal are not going to co-operate, so move onto another target, there will be plenty of times in real life where clubs are out priced for a player purely because the team that currently owns the player is not interested in selling, but when pushed they throw a crazy price they know no one will pay.

    There is nothing wrong with the AI wanting to hang onto Arteta, even at that age he will still be an asset for the season in the EPL, and we have no idea from the OP how the rest of their squad is coming along, have any of the other midfielders had injuries in the last season that has set them back in terms of development?
    He seems to be one of the main 3 midfielders in the side, along with Arteta and Song, but ahead of Wilshere; despite all the other three averaging plus 7.2 last season. Other than these four, Arsenal have Denilson, Diaby and Francis Couqelin in the midfield positions - but none of those three have featured in the first team much in the two seasons. So it is obvious that, despite his inferior ratings, he is a improtant first team player for Arsenal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ri916 View Post
    so your saying that arsenal wouldnt accept a bid of 55million for arteta? how much did they sell fabregas for again?.....
    Fabregas asked to leave, on more than 1 occasion, by the OP Arteta has not indicated he wanted to leave, not even when silly bids are being made for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Fabregas asked to leave, on more than 1 occasion, by the OP Arteta has not indicated he wanted to leave, not even when silly bids are being made for him.
    hmmm..... ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by tommonufc View Post
    He seems to be one of the main 3 midfielders in the side, along with Arteta and Song, but ahead of Wilshere; despite all the other three averaging plus 7.2 last season. Other than these four, Arsenal have Denilson, Diaby and Francis Couqelin in the midfield positions - but none of those three have featured in the first team much in the two seasons. So it is obvious that, despite his inferior ratings, he is a improtant first team player for Arsenal.
    So he is still a vital part of their team you can see why they want to keep a hold of them. BTW sorry if my first post came across as me having a go, didnt mean it like that.

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    This is ridiculous. (Even if Arsenal are one of the biggest tossers on the game for selling players)

    I think Arsenal would rather take £55 million for an aging play maker who will soon be on the decline, it just goes to show the lack of intelligence by the AI. They could easily with some intelligence accept that bid of £55million and then go on to get in a better play maker for cheaper, I'm pretty certain they could get someone with a higher CA than Arteta with that money (the AI loves anyone with a high CA after all).

    Arteta is nothing special and his CA should just be one way of proving that to the AI along with his age etc. There's NO WAY anyone would ever reject even £20million for him in real life, after an average season with the club and being bought for around £10million to replace Fabregas and failing I think Arsenal as a club would sooner profit from a failed player.

    We took just £35million for Fabregas and whilst he wanted to leave we did everything we could to stop that, Fabregas was highly regarded as one of our best ever midfielders and was the core to the team, one of the best in the world etc, is anyone seriously telling me that the AI would then reject a £55million bid for a much worse player who has little status at the club and offers much less? (afaik)

    C.Ronaldo went to Real Madrid for £80million and he's one of the best in the world, Arteta is just some aging playmaker who isn't doing much and they can make just £25million less off him, it's a huge amount of money and they would always accept it, you'd think the AI could spot what an incredible bid for a player is and draw the line between a rejectable bid and one that is too good to refuse

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    When you spoke about players values earlier on, the contract generally determines the value and is in no way an indicative of the clubs value of the player, which is kind of silly if you ask me. Which is why if you look at players on their last year of their contract then the value is in fact much more accurate. Anyway the AI normally does give you crazily high prices to ward of players and you normally play through the nose for them. In my first season with Barcelona, Arsenal wanted like 60mil for Ramsey, pages a considerably less amount of 20mil after unsettling him but that is still quite a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    This is ridiculous. (Even if Arsenal are one of the biggest tossers on the game for selling players)

    I think Arsenal would rather take £55 million for an aging play maker who will soon be on the decline, it just goes to show the lack of intelligence by the AI. They could easily with some intelligence accept that bid of £55million and then go on to get in a better play maker for cheaper, I'm pretty certain they could get someone with a higher CA than Arteta with that money (the AI loves anyone with a high CA after all).

    Arteta is nothing special and his CA should just be one way of proving that to the AI along with his age etc. There's NO WAY anyone would ever reject even £20million for him in real life, after an average season with the club and being bought for around £10million to replace Fabregas and failing I think Arsenal as a club would sooner profit from a failed player.

    We took just £35million for Fabregas and whilst he wanted to leave we did everything we could to stop that, Fabregas was highly regarded as one of our best ever midfielders and was the core to the team, one of the best in the world etc, is anyone seriously telling me that the AI would then reject a £55million bid for a much worse player who has little status at the club and offers much less? (afaik)

    C.Ronaldo went to Real Madrid for £80million and he's one of the best in the world, Arteta is just some aging playmaker who isn't doing much and they can make just £25million less off him, it's a huge amount of money and they would always accept it, you'd think the AI could spot what an incredible bid for a player is and draw the line between a rejectable bid and one that is too good to refuse
    But they want to hang on to him, which (according to some people on this forum) is the most important thing and adds £100m to a player's transfer value.

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    I wanted to keep a 29 year old Fernando who was the core to my team, but when City came in with a £25million offer it was too good to refuse, I knew I could get in a cheaper replacement with more years in him and the money would be good for the club.

    Just feels like excuses for a poor AI.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    As usual whats being said is being twisted around, no one is saying Arsenal value Arteta at £150m, they see him as invaluable to their team, he has made no indication he wants to leave despite several bids being rejected for him so they are in no pressure to sell him. They would rather not sell him at all, but are willing to listen to extreme prices, like i said people moaned years ago when clubs flat our refused £200m bids for players, SI change it so clubs will come back when they dont want to sell with a silly price, which by the way you will be able to negotiate, and people moan. I do exactly what the AI has done in this instance, when i dont want to sell i go back with a value sometimes 200-300% higher than his on screen value, usually it puts them off altogether, other times they make a crazy bid that grabs my attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    As usual whats being said is being twisted around, no one is saying Arsenal value Arteta at £150m, they see him as invaluable to their team, he has made no indication he wants to leave
    Although you will never know, given the fact that Arsenal reject £55m for him. All you know is that he isn't unhappy enough to make a fuss about it. And we all know that you can sell players that don't get upset when you initially say no.

    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    despite several bids being rejected for him so they are in no pressure to sell him. They would rather not sell him at all, but are willing to listen to extreme prices
    £50m is extreme.

    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    like i said people moaned years ago when clubs flat our refused £200m bids for players, SI change it so clubs will come back when they dont want to sell with a silly price, which by the way you will be able to negotiate, and people moan. I do exactly what the AI has done in this instance, when i dont want to sell i go back with a value sometimes 200-300% higher than his on screen value, usually it puts them off altogether, other times they make a crazy bid that grabs my attention.
    SI incorrectly fixed it, then. SI should basically have done something like "Arsenal aren't interested in selling Arteta. Your assistant suggests that your bid hasn't captured their attention, and should try something a lot higher, like £30m." Which would have solved both issues.

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    He hasnt asked for a transfer so he is not unhappy about it all, FM is simple in those terms. The rest is you arguing semantics as always.

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    Yes, 200-300% of his shown value would be reasonable as a "Pay this crazy sum or bugger off" move by Arsenal. That would be...10m-15m, right?

    I agree that it is something of an improvement that clubs come back with at least some fee they'd be willing to start with, but $153,400,000 is pretty much indefensibly huge, don't you think?

    On the other hand, if Arsenal don't think they can get a replacement in and are financially solid and Arteta doesn't want to go anywhere then why not indicate that he's worth say "A champion's league spot and 2 places in the league, or ~$50,000,000".... or suggest "Bring us a better player and we'll talk. We need Arteta or better for the upcoming season and all our scouts have recently gone blind. Sorry." Maybe the buyer could act as matchmaker and (re)introduce Arsenal to better players around the world who would jump at the chance to play for such an esteemed club. I wonder if that happens in real life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    He hasnt asked for a transfer so he is not unhappy about it all, FM is simple in those terms. The rest is you arguing semantics as always.
    He's not unhappy, but it doesn't mean he doesn't want to leave.

    For example: You bid £1m for some Manchester United reserve who has no future at the first-team of Manchester United. He doesn't complain when you turn down the offer, but he doesn't get upset when you accept a £1.5m bid instead. He then signs a contract with his new team.

    Arteta's theoretical transfer could work exactly like that - Arsenal reject £5m, but Arteta is happy to stay, so doesn't complain. Arsenal later accept £25m-£30m (which is obscene enough), and Arteta is happy to move.

    The issue is that Arsenal seem compelled to produce a return figure, when they shouldn't really need to. Arsenal simply need to be able to say, "Show me the money!" (and not in a quasi-ambiguous way like the somehow exact £153,400,000 - what about £153,350,000?), and the buying club simply needs to realise that because Arsenal don't want to weaken their bargaining position by setting a value, and because Arsenal are in a position to do so, it is up to the buying club to do something special.

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    Every game is different, I signed him for Bilbao for £10 million in the second season. Wanting £153 million is very strange.

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    Which is already in the game when a player would want to move, you bid £5m for a top player and it wont unsettle him, offer £50m and it can do, in this instance no matter what the OP has offered it has not upset Arteta so he does not want to move, thats not to say if Arsenal accepted he would say no, but that then opens a different situation.

    You would argue with the Egyptians that there are no pyramids if you could twist the words around enough.

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    Interesting reading through these posts, have to admit I'm taking rather a back seat in the discussions after I said what I needed to at the time further up; but does seem I have opened a can of worms.

    I shall try again to bring him to Bilbao in the January transfer window, and see how that goes. I did continue another round of negotiations, with Arsenal budging as low as £113M! - It's a deal, it's a steal, it's the Sale of the f'in century!

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Which is already in the game when a player would want to move, you bid £5m for a top player and it wont unsettle him, offer £50m and it can do, in this instance no matter what the OP has offered it has not upset Arteta so he does not want to move, thats not to say if Arsenal accepted he would say no, but that then opens a different situation.
    I'd argue that Arteta not wanting to move is a red herring. The crux of the issue is that Arsenal are rejecting bids upwards of £30m for Arteta. Whether or not Arteta gets upset is meaningless - he may still be happy to accept his new club (even if he doesn't get upset).

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    The problem is not that Arsenal are rejecting bids like this.

    The problem is that your board are letting you make those bids in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    The problem is not that Arsenal are rejecting bids like this.

    The problem is that your board are letting you make those bids in the first place.
    Possibly both? I don't think a board should really restrict you. I don't think a game where the board vets your transfers would be particularly fun. Imagine cheaper transfers getting rejected by the board.

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    I really want the boards to be a lot nastier in it - if it doesn't make financial sense (and £30m for a 31 year old slightly above average Premiership player will never make sense) the board should step in.

    Of course in order for this to not be horribly annoying, the financial/transfer system in FM needs a damn good improving.
    Last edited by Ackter; 05-04-2012 at 16:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    I really want the boards to be a lot nastier in it - if it doesn't make financial sense (and £30m for a 31 year old slightly above average Premiership player will never make sense) the board should step in.
    I think a lot of modern-day transfers don't make sense (Bébé, Carroll, selling Ibrahimović at a loss, Milner, a lot of Anzhi's transfers, etc.). I think £30m for Arteta would not be the worst step in the world for another Manchester City scenario, where they end up purchasing fairly average players for lots of money.

    It would also stop the scenario where a user tries to financially ruin a club and raise them up through the ranks again after a few years.

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    While Man City are a special case, did they actually spend big money on older players?

    Pretty much everyone was younger than 28 (except Vieira iirc)

    Think Chelsea had a habit of spending massive money on 30 year olds though.

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    What did they pay for Shevchenko?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike7077 View Post
    What did they pay for Shevchenko?
    £30M

    (10 Char)

  41. #41
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    Too add to the pure lunacy that was Arsenal's valuation on him, I manage to sign him less than six months later for a mear fraction of £153M. Certainly had the last laugh there didn't I Arsenal - He who laughs last, last longest.

    Tom Richards (News_ Inbox) by TRichardsss, on Flickr

  42. #42
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    Lucky you didn't bid 153M then!

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommonufc View Post
    Too add to the pure lunacy that was Arsenal's valuation on him, I manage to sign him less than six months later for a mear fraction of £153M. Certainly had the last laugh there didn't I Arsenal - He who laughs last, last longest.

    Tom Richards (News_ Inbox) by TRichardsss, on Flickr
    So you got him for £8.25m in the end? Everyone's a winner then.

  44. #44
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    He should have had him 6 months earlier though.

    Why has the AI suddenly gone from £153million and rejecting amazing bids to 6 months later accepting way less? Because it's stupid and needs to be looked at.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    He should have had him 6 months earlier though.

    Why has the AI suddenly gone from £153million and rejecting amazing bids to 6 months later accepting way less? Because it's stupid and needs to be looked at.
    Did I say anything less? I simply made I light hearted comment.

  46. #46
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    I don't care if he's not for sale if you bid 30m on a 31 year old Arteta you are always going to sell fact, possibly even 15m despite being a key player. Embarassing and I do feel for you mate

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gee_Simpson View Post
    Did I say anything less? I simply made I light hearted comment.
    Not aimed at you

    Just generally!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    Not aimed at you

    Just generally!
    Alright, no problem

  49. #49
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    "Had been a loyal servant for the past a day" eheheheheheheh

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