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Thread: Why is the AI so much better at finishing?

  1. #501
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    average 3 goals game, not always 3+ ofc. 4 goals were conceeded on matches that ended 1-0, 1 due to dc bug, 1 corner because DC thinks it's better to not mark the player and go to top of the area even though he is instructed to mark tall men which was the player who scored, 2 due to awesome crossing near the corner even though he was tight marked and striker is alone 1 yard from the keeper who refuses to intercept the ball. the others matches were good AI corners (no complain), some good long shots without oposition (no complain), and lots of creativity and deadly shots from Villa (hate him so much).
    i have a degree in computer software, i'm well aware on how bugs can impact a product and that all software has bugs, even if tiny ones. i'm also aware that a bug that affects the core of how a product works is one of the first that should be fixed before insert new stuff into the product. i'm also aware what happens when a costumer finds out a bug that makes the product not work as it was intended to do, they will ask refund or in most games cases they won't buy next version. i'm also a costumer too so you can pretty much see the outcome.
    i wanted to cancel my account so my data would be 100% removed from your database, baning won't do that. if there is a way to erase 100% of my data feel free to use that method
    even though we disagree in lots of stuff at least you are one of the mods who have the guts to answer people so: thank you and keep up answering people doubts
    Last edited by deathspawn666; 23-04-2012 at 05:56.

  2. #502

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    You can't please everyone, all the time. The fact is, FM HAS to be able to simulate the 'bad days', other wise it would be a much poorer simulator. People aren't happy about how its presented to them, but to me, its a simulator trying to simulate a bad day!

  3. #503
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    As someone who holds a degree in computer science I am amazed at how little sympathy you appear to have towards the ME coders, surely you must understand how complex the ME is & how difficult it must be to string code that will offer an accurate representation of quite possibly the most fluid & open team sport in the world.

  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    As someone who holds a degree in computer science I am amazed at how little sympathy you appear to have towards the ME coders, surely you must understand how complex the ME is & how difficult it must be to string code that will offer an accurate representation of quite possibly the most fluid & open team sport in the world.
    Put on the box "the ME is very complex so the representation of football will not be realistic enough" instead of "new and improved ME with blah blah" and all will be fine.

    Fair, no?

  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    As someone who holds a degree in computer science I am amazed at how little sympathy you appear to have towards the ME coders, surely you must understand how complex the ME is & how difficult it must be to string code that will offer an accurate representation of quite possibly the most fluid & open team sport in the world.
    He has three issues, interpretation, perception and playing method.

    Firstly, he interprets a high percentage of goals against as bugged. He may have a valid point, despite the three goals he mentioned not seeming like any of the classic defence bugs to me. However, we'll give him the benefit of the doubt and accept they were bugged goals he shouldn't have conceded. He perceives this as being unfair, while forgetting all the bugged goals his team has scored. However, his main problem is not having a Plan B or Plan C in such situations.

    Although by now it must be obvious to him that his team has bad days when the strikers can't hit a cow's arse, he continues to play in the same manner, hoping it will get better. There is no attempt to work out whether there are mental / motivational issues stopping the strikers from scoring or to devise methods of scoring in different ways. Ultimately, there is no management outside of buying world class players. As we know from the galactico era, that is not enough in itself. Which takes us back to interpretation and perception.

    He perceives that good players are the be all and end all, whereas I believe they are important but not the only piece in the puzzle. Tactical, motivational and media management all play a part. Unless he learns this, then he'll always get frustrated and blame bugs for inevitable losses.

  6. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSH View Post
    Put on the box "the ME is very complex so the representation of football will not be realistic enough" instead of "new and improved ME with blah blah" and all will be fine.

    Fair, no?
    Should SI be the first company in the world, with perhaps the honourable exception of Ronseal, to discard market realities? Perhaps Apple should promote Macs as 'great operating system on overpriced hardware that has a tendency to overheat?' Or Microsoft should market Windows as 'a worthy attempt to copy Apple's ideas on what an OS should be on computers of all shapes, sizes and specs, so please accept the bugs. There's nothing we could do about them'. Or Toyota sell the Yaris as ' a really small car that isn't quite as much fun as Top Gear makes it seem?' Or Pot Noodles be sold as 'attempts to mimic Asian cooking that don't actually have any resemblance to the real thing. So suck it and eat up!' Or Mars 'although you will probably work, rest and play on the glucose our bar provides, the rest of it will make you fat!'

    Be real!

  7. #507
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    I think part of the problem is telling if you are conceding goals because of your tactic or because of bugs in ME, a lot of goals seem buggy to be honest and i know it's not biased towards the AI but it happens both ways.

    -Goals from throw-ins to a player free of marking near the line that just crosses the ball for an easy tap-in.
    -Goals from free-kicks where the ball is passed quickly to a guy completely alone on the left side.
    -Goals on corners where your defenders kick the ball against the goalkeeper for an own goal.
    -Goals from a long kick clearance where a header is enough to make a lightning quick counter-attack..this was somewhat fixed last patch but still happens enough to be an annoyance.
    -The number of goals scored or conceded after a kick off caused by a strategy switch(this is the worse by far)

    Either the match engine is real buggy or the graphical representations are poor and don't translate exactly what it should be happening that's probably what angers people, it's not a matter of losing or conceding goals.. it just feels cheap to lose or draw a match when any of the above occur.
    Last edited by Coentrao; 23-04-2012 at 09:32.

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    The problem with defining a bugged goal is that it's all too easy to consider a defensive error or lapse in concentration as a bug. The throw-in one is very annoying not only because it is truly dumb but also because despite having a more or less identical ME neither this or the problem of corner/throw-in takers forgetting to get onside existed in FM11 to the extent that it does on this version, it does however show that even a minor tweak to the ME can have a considerable effect on the overall gameplay.

  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    As someone who holds a degree in computer science I am amazed at how little sympathy you appear to have towards the ME coders
    Customers shouldn't need to sympathise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Customers shouldn't need to sympathise.
    Yes, because we live in a perfect world don't we

  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    i wanted to cancel my account so my data would be 100% removed from your database, baning won't do that. if there is a way to erase 100% of my data feel free to use that method
    even though we disagree in lots of stuff at least you are one of the mods who have the guts to answer people so: thank you and keep up answering people doubts
    Best PM Neil Brock, deleting an account is at his discretion and a bit of a pain to do

  12. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar2010 View Post
    Yes, because we live in a perfect world don't we
    I don't understand. In a perfect world, customers shouldn't need to sympathise, as the product will be perfect. In an imperfect world, customers shouldn't need to sympathise, as this doesn't drive the product to improve. Whether or not the product is perfect has no impact on whether a customer needs to sympathise or not...

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    I don't understand. In a perfect world, customers shouldn't need to sympathise, as the product will be perfect. In an imperfect world, customers shouldn't need to sympathise, as this doesn't drive the product to improve. Whether or not the product is perfect has no impact on whether a customer needs to sympathise or not...
    Sympathize is probably not the right word, more like common sense and understanding. It's probably fair to say that everyone here wants the game to be better, but because we don't live in a perfect world and the game designers aren't perfect, the game is never gonna be perfect. There are going to be bugs. Accepting that there are going to be bugs that the developers struggle to eliminate doesn't make anyone a fanboy, and it doesn't mean they don't want the game to improve or the bugs to be fixed.

  14. #514
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    I think Pep Guardiola would love this thread.

  15. #515
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    we need to understand, the game is not perfect, but i can think of more highly rated games by fantastic developers which have some terrible flaws and bugs, this game doesnt have any bar the odd strange one.
    Pep Guardiola has the excuse that he forgot to have defenders on that 2nd goal :P, i know it was torres but anyone coulda scored that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scott MUFC View Post
    we need to understand, the game is not perfect, but i can think of more highly rated games by fantastic developers which have some terrible flaws and bugs, this game doesnt have any bar the odd strange one.
    Pep Guardiola has the excuse that he forgot to have defenders on that 2nd goal :P, i know it was torres but anyone coulda scored that.
    True. I think the bugs in this game are sometimes annoying but not too bad. You just need to create the right sort of chances and not set yourself up for failure.
    And I figured if last nights game between Barcelona and Chelsea would have happened in FM some people would have gone mental, using it as evidence that the game is bugged/won't let you win/why did Messi miss a penalty/AI only has 2 chances and they score both, WTF? etc. etc.

  17. #517
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    But how many matches like that Barcelona had let's say in last 2 years ? Right now i lost three matches in a row all were unlucky, first one ok it can happen, second time - ok that's annoying but still can happen but third match was joke...chances that i created were great and i made even screens from that one but i can't upload them(it's says that i don't have right previliges or smth like that) and the worst thing is that when riged match mode is on you can be sure that AI will score aroung 90m propably from corner. This is not coincidence that so many people see this problem. Anyway i still love this game and will play but that doesn't mean i can't recognize problems and talk about them.
    Last edited by sciegu; 26-04-2012 at 22:39.

  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by sciegu View Post
    and the worst thing is that when rigged match mode is on you can be sure that AI will score aroung 90m propably from corner. This is not coincidence that so many people see this problem.
    There is no 'rigged match mode'. There is a certain way of playing that results in this type of match, but it is 100% to do with the user's tactical style being very one dimensional.

  19. #519
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    i think the problem is that people wants to win 4-0 every single time because they have the best possible players in fm, which is not possible anyway. there is bug in the ME of course, both AI and humans are victims to it. usually i just take that my team is having a bad day by doing a ramos with every single shot.
    if we look at the previous post, human players are more than likely to have better finishing than the AI, just than conceding goals randomly with a "world class defence" dont cut it out for most people. ive concede less than 10 goals per season, ive also conceded 30 odd goals. not much of a problem with the "AI 1 shot 1 goal bug" anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    There is no 'rigged match mode'. There is a certain way of playing that results in this type of match, but it is 100% to do with the user's tactical style being very one dimensional.
    Would you consider the following re-wording fair?
    "There is no 'rigged match mode'. There is a certain way of playing that results in this type of match, but it is 100% to do with the ME's inability to properly handle certain tactical styles."

  21. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by sciegu View Post
    But how many matches like that Barcelona had let's say in last 2 years ?
    Have you missed the bit where Barcelona have drawn six and lost three in La Liga this season alone?

  22. #522
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    Maybe you guys can help? I'm starting to believe in this - mainly because giant killing is so easy for AI teams. Playing in German Div 1, 2-0 won against Bayern, 1-0 Leverkusen, even beaten Barca 2-1 in Champions. The thing is, lowly Freiburg, which is at the bottom of the league, won 4/5 times (I did reload 5 times ) I played them, usually scoring their second goal or even third goals in the whole season against me!

    It's like they're in deep bottom, haven't scored against anyone for ages, the only points they have are from draws, the whole team has abysmal morale... but when I face them, they have no problem giant killing me at all. Defense that saved me against Bayern, offense that managed to test Barca so many times, midfield that didn't allow the most dangerous attacks of Leverkusen... nothing can beat Freiburg. The sad thing is, the same can be said about the other two bottom teams... I find it much harder to play bottom teams for some reason...

  23. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by sriracha View Post
    Would you consider the following re-wording fair?"There is no 'rigged match mode'. There is a certain way of playing that results in this type of match, but it is 100% to do with the ME's inability to properly handle certain tactical styles."
    Nope, I wouldn't. Unless you recognise that the problem and solution lies mainly with you, then you won't ever get anywhere.

    It is not as if your tactical style fails. Everybody who is complaining does extremely well. It is that nobody bothers developing a Plan B or Plan C when the attacking battering ram isn't working. There are so many tools with which you can change things, yet the majority of the complainers sit with their head in their hands doing nothing, then blaming the 'wrong team talk' when they lose.
    Last edited by wwfan; 27-04-2012 at 15:08.

  24. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macho M. View Post
    Maybe you guys can help? I'm starting to believe in this - mainly because giant killing is so easy for AI teams. Playing in German Div 1, 2-0 won against Bayern, 1-0 Leverkusen, even beaten Barca 2-1 in Champions. The thing is, lowly Freiburg, which is at the bottom of the league, won 4/5 times (I did reload 5 times ) I played them, usually scoring their second goal or even third goals in the whole season against me!

    It's like they're in deep bottom, haven't scored against anyone for ages, the only points they have are from draws, the whole team has abysmal morale... but when I face them, they have no problem giant killing me at all. Defense that saved me against Bayern, offense that managed to test Barca so many times, midfield that didn't allow the most dangerous attacks of Leverkusen... nothing can beat Freiburg. The sad thing is, the same can be said about the other two bottom teams... I find it much harder to play bottom teams for some reason...
    We'll need to know your tactical settings. I can make some assumptions, but I'm getting fed up of being aggressively attacked if I get the smallest thing wrong. Not by you, but by others that I've tried to help out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    We'll need to know your tactical settings. I can make some assumptions, but I'm getting fed up of being aggressively attacked if I get the smallest thing wrong. Not by you, but by others that I've tried to help out.
    http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/footb...re-2012-a.html

    Everything is just like here except that my striker's a poacher. Do you need anything else?

  26. #526
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    That tactics is ripe for being counter-attacked.

    The team instructions alone will cause all manner of problems as you're more or less telling your players to leave 40-50 yards of space behind them & to dive in as soon as they get near an opponent then factor in that none of your players are fulfilling a support role it is no surprise that you are having problems.

    I'd imagine that most of the goals you concede are due to a missed tackle that leaves your opponent with acres of space to run in.

    IMHO you should never use an anchor man when playing such a high line, the space that he normally operates in doesn't exist & as he's the only defensive minded midfield player it makes you very weak in the centre of the park.
    Last edited by Barside; 27-04-2012 at 17:06.

  27. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macho M. View Post
    http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/footb...re-2012-a.html

    Everything is just like here except that my striker's a poacher. Do you need anything else?

    A narrow, aggressive, direct attacking tactic which attempts to overload the centre of the opposition defence.

    My advice would be scrap it and build a proper tactic based on playing football rather than trying to beat the ME.

  28. #528
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    The funny thing is that the tactic would probably work really good without any of the tweaks it shows on the team instructions, maybe having a support striker instead of an advanced forward or poacher but everything else looks like what you would expect from a standard 433.

    It can be easier to just make a tactic based on real footballing sense instead of tweaking sliders.

  29. #529
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    I don't get it though - how should a tactic be responsible for the amazing finishing the A.I. possesses? If an A.I. is scoring from everywhere, (the wings, centre of the field, corners, fks) a tactic can't change it, it's a bug inherent in the match engine.

  30. #530
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    Well.. the thing is.. it works well against big teams. Really well. Should I assume it is so because major teams don't employ counter based tactics? I've noticed that quite a few of my goals are from counters, cause this formation allows to feed the ball to the front incredibly fast.

    The weak teams, however, hurt me a lot. The goals usually come from crosses to the penalty area where my guys always seem to leave someone free while double teaming some other players. Screamers too...

    Also, I found the anchor man to be really useful, because when I tried another downloaded tactic, JP Woody's Wenger style (http://sadpanda.us/images/936718-20RTDVC.jpg), I was soaking goals through the middle faster than scoring them. All the time too, not just against the bottom teams. Maybe a sweeper or libero would work better than anchor man? I'm already trying a DM with def duty and it seems to be working ok.

    By the way, sadly, I have no footballing sense . While I did try making some tactics, the game was never as free-flowing and effective as I have it now.
    Last edited by Macho M.; 27-04-2012 at 19:50. Reason: typos

  31. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by L0calbloke View Post
    I don't get it though - how should a tactic be responsible for the amazing finishing the A.I. possesses? If an A.I. is scoring from everywhere, (the wings, centre of the field, corners, fks) a tactic can't change it, it's a bug inherent in the match engine.
    Mainly because the chances that the AI gets are gift wrapped & handed on a silver platter, in most cases it would be harder for them to miss.

  32. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macho M. View Post
    Well.. the thing is.. it works well against big teams. Really well. Should I assume it is so because major teams don't employ counter based tactics? I've noticed that quite a few of my goals are from counters, cause this formation allows to feed the ball to the front incredibly fast.
    Yes, big teams come and attack you leaving space at the back whereas smaller teams close down that space leaving you to bang your head against a wall so to speak while they counter attack.



    Also, sadly, I have no footballing sense . While I did try making some tactics, the game was never as free-flowing and effective as I have it now.
    You'll never learn if you don't try.

    Have a look in the tactics forums, put a basic one together then post it up if you want advice on how to improve it.

  33. #533
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    Just re-emphasising what the other posters said. When is the last time you saw a top team set out to play the super fast, super aggressive British style game against weaker sides. Let alone try and battering ram them down the middle. In such matches, the better team tends to play a controlled, patient game, waiting for and working their chances. All you need to do is develop a tactic that does that and employ it in those type of matches.


    I don't get it though - how should a tactic be responsible for the amazing finishing the A.I. possesses? If an A.I. is scoring from everywhere, (the wings, centre of the field, corners, fks) a tactic can't change it, it's a bug inherent in the match engine.
    I think this thread has pretty conclusively proved that this doesn't happen due to anything ME related, but is all down to user tactics and perception bias.

  34. #534
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    why not close it then ? if I attack a team like barcelona I get 20 shots at goal, most of them half chances.
    if I try to counter and use their weak spots, I get 5 shots in and 2 goals. it´s called counter attacks.
    if they have more creativity then you counter by having a strong defence and hit them down the flanks. I had Cavani he scored 3 goals in the two ch. semi finals against them , bot of them where him getting the ball down the right flank and scoring, when they were non stop attacking me.
    I won 2-0 . 3 shots at goal, and they had 36. they AI is not better at it , perhaps it´s a better manager than you !

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    Just wanted to thank you guys - after consider all you've said, I've made a slightly different tactic with a few minor tweaks and changed attacking to control. While I'm not even close to major teams' scores against the weaklings, it's good enough to win by a goal or two, and that's all I needed

    I really appreciate your help.

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    Thought a little thread resurrection was in order as my game has reached a comical point in respect to how other teams approach matches against my side.

    My reputation & dominance is such that every side starts out playing so deep that even using a standard/counter team mentality resulted in my players overloading the attacking third & getting in each others way. The only way to solve this was to change to a defensive team mentality yet we still create 15+ chances per match & it's fairly common for us to create 25+ chances.

    Might be time to quit this team as it goes against all logic that the only way to maintain our attacking threat is to go out with a defensive mindset, before I know it I'll have to send the players out using the 'contain' team instruction.

  37. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar2010 View Post
    A narrow, aggressive, direct attacking tactic which attempts to overload the centre of the opposition defence.

    My advice would be scrap it and build a proper tactic based on playing football rather than trying to beat the ME.
    Agree with this, exploit the space and weaknesses you see during the match.

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    Our most recent match using my current defensive mindset, should be pointed out that this is week 17 & after 16 matches Osnabruck are 8th in the league.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    My reputation & dominance is such that every side starts out playing so deep that even using a standard/counter team mentality resulted in my players overloading the attacking third & getting in each others way. The only way to solve this was to change to a defensive team mentality yet we still create 15+ chances per match & it's fairly common for us to create 25+ chances.

    Might be time to quit this team as it goes against all logic that the only way to maintain our attacking threat is to go out with a defensive mindset, before I know it I'll have to send the players out using the 'contain' team instruction.
    Maybe you feel a bit like Barca do in real life :P (Or did - maybe their invincibility aura has lessened a little, although it remains to be seen for how long)
    I'm certainly a believer that it's good to give weaker teams a bit of possession, and hope they hang themselves on their own rope, so to speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hugo_rune View Post
    I'm certainly a believer that it's good to give weaker teams a bit of possession, and hope they hang themselves on their own rope, so to speak.
    I would love to give my opponents possession to draw them out & open up space at the back but as I've posted even when using a contain or defensive mentality we still dominate possession & pitch camp in the opposition area.

    This is a good example of my tactic dilemma, the match is the Champions League final & even with our defensive mentality we utterly dominated proceedings in a manner that could hardly be described as defensive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    I would love to give my opponents possession to draw them out & open up space at the back but as I've posted even when using a contain or defensive mentality we still dominate possession & pitch camp in the opposition area.

    This is a good example of my tactic dilemma, the match is the Champions League final & even with our defensive mentality we utterly dominated proceedings in a manner that could hardly be described as defensive.
    That's because retaining possession and passing aimlessly amongst each other in safety is a defensive strategy in FM.

    If you want to lose possession, play quick, attacking football and direct passing, with attacking mentalities (so that they shoot rather than backpass).

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    Using the attacking mentalities is suicide, all that happens is that the defence pushes up & is more aggressive in attacking defensive clearances which creates the counter attacking chances for the opposition, in attack the team will either camp in the opposition area only this time they will take more high risk pot shots that get blocked leading to the counter attacks or the midfield & attack are unable to retain possession & you end up being camped in your area as the opponents keep winning the midfield battle.

    As things stand I am winning & winning well so there is no need to change things, what I'm showing is that reputation has resulted in an illogical tactical situation. If you look at the image you will see that our possession is pretty much all in the opposition half & we are creating a decent number of chances which goes against what you would expect from a safety first passing game that has you retaining possession in your own half.
    Last edited by Barside; 24-05-2012 at 10:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Using the attacking mentalities is suicide, all that happens is that the defence pushes up & is more aggressive in attacking defensive clearances which creates the counter attacking chances for the opposition, in attack the team will either camp in the opposition area only this time they will take more high risk pot shots that get blocked leading to the counter attacks or the midfield & attack are unable to retain possession & you end up being camped in your area as the opponents keep winning the midfield battle.

    As things stand I am winning & winning well so there is no need to change things, what I'm showing is that reputation has resulted in an illogical tactical situation. If you look at the image you will see that our possession is pretty much all in the opposition half & we are creating a decent number of chances which goes against what you would expect from a safety first passing game that has you retaining possession in your own half.
    Isn't that exactly what you want? When retaining possession indefinitely leads to a situation where the opposition has complete control, having midfield domination is worthless. I just ignore the whole midfield battle thing and concentrate on the areas of the pitch which matters, and I don't have problems with ultradefensive opponents at all. So when the goal is to draw the opponents out, which is what you are trying to do when using the preset mentality settings, going counter/defend/contain only increases possession domination - the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve. It is better with 55/45 than 70/30 when it comes to goalscoring. It is also better with 15/10 shot/s.o.t. ratio than 30/20, since the chance of scoring 20 goals is almost zero, and the same could be said for 10 in both cases. I would estimate that the chance of scoring 5 goals is virtually the same in both cases, so 5 of 6 shots in the latter case were worthless, compared to 2/3.

    I think that most of the frustration in threads like these would dissipate like vodka in the sun if FM users would just realize that football is not about having the most shots and the most passes in a game, but scoring more goals. Am I the only one who thinks that Bayern Munchen played boring, unimaginative football in 120 minutes on Saturday? The only thing they did was giving Robben the ball, who then cut inside and shot from some distance? Chelsea won deservedly. The match stats surely looks like the above CL final, though.

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    Everything you say is spot on & you're right that my team is playing in exactly the manner I want them to, the problem I have is that the current situation is due to the fact that every* team we face has given up before the game has started because they have looked at our reputation & decided to play in the most defensive way possible even if they play an attacking style in every other game.

    Other than gradually drawing back the attacking mentality of the team over the last 10 seasons I have not had to change the structure of my formation or player roles & it is very rare that I need to adjust things during the match, this is imo solely due to my club reputation increasing as 10 years ago I used an attacking mentality with equal effectiveness but now that approach would result in a heavy loss.

    *the only time I do not face a wall of 10 is when playing English sides away from home, for some reason they go hell for leather at the start.

    Edit: I also agree with you about the outcome of the real life CL final although Chelsea didn't 'deserve' to win because they were the better team, they won because Bayern failed to rectify their failings, Robben having 15 shots, mostly when off balance & Gomez once again showing the world that he's not a big game player.
    Last edited by Barside; 24-05-2012 at 11:10.

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    I have played the game on full and watched how the opposition are playing against me and I can't work out how to stop them. I notice they overlap so I try to exploit the flanks and play wider but that doesn't work. I watch how they scored and most of the time I just feel that it is what it is. I couldn't think of a way of how I could have stopped them even if I mark their wingers or full backs it doesn't prevent them from scoring. I try counter attack or defensive and it doesn't work. Tighten up with only minutes to go and the opposition still score.

    I've noticed that any team in that are struggling all of a sudden have players that can launch balls into to penalty box, even teams that don't have throwers who can throw long. In past editions I've seen teams desperately needing a goal scoring from a long way out constantly. The game is there to beat you and we need to find ways of beating it so I do believe the game will try any trick to make it hard for us and to be fair, it wouldn't be much of a challenge if we could just make a super-tactic and win everything (although it would save me getting p*ssed off a lot).

    The only thing that keeps me going is that there are people that have been successful at the game and understand how it works and maybe one day I might be like that. But it does seem like there's an awful lot of reading needed and probably spending an hour just to analyse one game, which is great if you're a casual gamer.

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    Keep tweaking, it can be done & more importantly it can be done without the aid of folk from the T&T forum.

    Once I started watching full matches it became clear where the AI was vulnerable & what player roles worked at making the most of those vulnerabilities,

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrdorf View Post
    I have played the game on full and watched how the opposition are playing against me and I can't work out how to stop them. I notice they overlap so I try to exploit the flanks and play wider but that doesn't work. I watch how they scored and most of the time I just feel that it is what it is. I couldn't think of a way of how I could have stopped them even if I mark their wingers or full backs it doesn't prevent them from scoring. I try counter attack or defensive and it doesn't work. Tighten up with only minutes to go and the opposition still score.

    I've noticed that any team in that are struggling all of a sudden have players that can launch balls into to penalty box, even teams that don't have throwers who can throw long. In past editions I've seen teams desperately needing a goal scoring from a long way out constantly. The game is there to beat you and we need to find ways of beating it so I do believe the game will try any trick to make it hard for us and to be fair, it wouldn't be much of a challenge if we could just make a super-tactic and win everything (although it would save me getting p*ssed off a lot).

    The only thing that keeps me going is that there are people that have been successful at the game and understand how it works and maybe one day I might be like that. But it does seem like there's an awful lot of reading needed and probably spending an hour just to analyse one game, which is great if you're a casual gamer.
    That is not necessary. No analysis is necessary at all - just watch the Key Highlights and see if your players make the right decisions. Then everything is ok. The central thing to realize when making (Classic) tactics in FM is that the more - and the more specific - things you tell your players to do, the more will rely on your skills as a tactician. If you tell your wingers to cut inside and try through balls and not go out wide and cross, you have deprived them of a good and very valid option and thus limited your chances of success.

    In every situation there is a correct choice and a wrong choice. Make sure your player chooses the right one, and you won't have any problems with either good or struggling teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    That is not necessary. No analysis is necessary at all - just watch the Key Highlights and see if your players make the right decisions. Then everything is ok. The central thing to realize when making (Classic) tactics in FM is that the more - and the more specific - things you tell your players to do, the more will rely on your skills as a tactician. If you tell your wingers to cut inside and try through balls and not go out wide and cross, you have deprived them of a good and very valid option and thus limited your chances of success.

    In every situation there is a correct choice and a wrong choice. Make sure your player chooses the right one, and you won't have any problems with either good or struggling teams.
    I'm thinking about starting a new tactic. I'm not going to mess with the Sliders, although there are somethings that I like to tweak a little bit, unfortunately I tend to mess with the mentality and closing down as I'm afraid of my players running around like headless chickens trying to close down the oppo. I probably should leave them well alone as I still have poor understanding of them no matter how much I read up, I just can't get my head around them.

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    Can't believe how much posts this has. The AI isn't even better I bone the AI regularly. Maybe you're not making the right chances. The game has different types of chances and highlights, You always know if the ball will go in or not because you have seen that type of chance. Some look really good chances but you know that type doesn't go in. You need to make sure you make they types that do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrdorf View Post
    I'm thinking about starting a new tactic. I'm not going to mess with the Sliders, although there are somethings that I like to tweak a little bit, unfortunately I tend to mess with the mentality and closing down as I'm afraid of my players running around like headless chickens trying to close down the oppo. I probably should leave them well alone as I still have poor understanding of them no matter how much I read up, I just can't get my head around them.
    Meh - load a bog standard flat 442, convert it. Just set the Mentality, Closing Down, Width, Passing Style and Defensive Line sliders perfectly aligned with each other somewhere between 11 and 15 (first click of Attacking) for the entire team. Put Long Shots to Rarely for all players, set the tempo to somewhere between 5 and 10 and leave the rest alone.

    Now, play the first friendly match and see if the following happens:
    1. The midfielders are caught in nowhere land and the opponent exploit space between defense and midfield in the middle.
    2. The strikers start their forward runs too early.
    3. You struggle to regain possession after losing it, and the midfield and defense are backing off when run at.
    4. The wingers are helpful in defense but will only help the attack when you have been in possession for a while.
    5. You are countered upon.

    If so, which I expect you will see, do the following:
    A. Set one or both central midfielders to run with ball and run from deep rarely.
    B. Set one or both strikers to run from deep rarely.
    C. Depending on where you set mentality and defensive line, increase closing down on all but the defenders. If in vicinity of 15, max it out. Hard tackling on all four midfielders.
    D. Set both wingers to run from deep often. If still not enough, increase mentality. If still not enough, run with ball often and through balls often, increase creative freedom.
    E. Set both full backs to run from deep rarely. (I assume no CDs are ever told to run forward or anything)

    Now you should have the framework of a balanced 442. Using sliders is easy if you keep things simple (aka avoid Often settings on runs with or without the ball, crossing and through balls - when it is not necessary). The instructions for these central midfielders, for instance, can allow you to play both a deep-lying playmaker type and a hard-working tenacious midfielder type together without changing anything. The high passing skill and creativity of the former will make him play a more advanced passing game than his more simple-minded partner, so both will choose correctly precisely because you have not told him to do or not do anything (besides waiting with the forward runs). The same with the strikers; if you give them a bit more creative freedom they will choose to run forward quickly when that is the correct choice to make, despite being told to do so rarely. While a target man with no skill on the ball and no speed should of course be told to not run with the ball, if he is strong and has decent technique he will function nicely as a target man with these settings because he is strong and good in the air and he comes deep. If you don't have fast strikers, you will play differently, but it will still work because they will choose what is best on their own.

    Why try to outsmart the opponent with lots of tactical changes and whatnot when you can have your players do it for you?

    I think people who don't believe they know enough tactical theory to succeed in this game have just veered off on the wrong path. There is no need to read page upon page on tactical theory at all - there's so many variables in football (and in FM) that the very idea that there's a correct tactical choice for every situation is ridiculous. The answer to the question "what do I do now; I am overrun on the flanks and the cross on me all the time" is simply let your players have the options available to them that would let them stop the doubling-up on the flanks. Maybe their closing down is too low, so they back off, or maybe their mentality is too high so they tackle when they should have stayed on their feet, maybe you should drop deeper to deny them the space, maybe you should play narrower to plug holes between the CD and the DR/L, maybe wider to make the distance to close down smaller, maybe it has nothing to do with flank play at all but that you can't keep the possession, maybe it is nothing tactical at all - your team talk made them nervous or confidence is low because you are over your head as a rookie-reputation manager and your players don't trust you. Reading giant articles about this will probably confuse you more than help you, since when to do what require more than what can be written down in them.

    So, make it simple; don't tell them what to do in every situation. Avoid elaborate game-plans and the reliance on specific players doing specific things. Give them the option to do what must be done, but restrict them when it is necessary.

    If your slow, lumbering target man must be a quick poacher because a through ball was played in his direction, why not let him try? You might be surprised...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    Meh - load a bog standard flat 442, convert it. Just set the Mentality, Closing Down, Width, Passing Style and Defensive Line sliders perfectly aligned with each other somewhere between 11 and 15 (first click of Attacking) for the entire team. Put Long Shots to Rarely for all players, set the tempo to somewhere between 5 and 10 and leave the rest alone.

    Now, play the first friendly match and see if the following happens:
    1. The midfielders are caught in nowhere land and the opponent exploit space between defense and midfield in the middle.
    2. The strikers start their forward runs too early.
    3. You struggle to regain possession after losing it, and the midfield and defense are backing off when run at.
    4. The wingers are helpful in defense but will only help the attack when you have been in possession for a while.
    5. You are countered upon.

    If so, which I expect you will see, do the following:
    A. Set one or both central midfielders to run with ball and run from deep rarely.
    B. Set one or both strikers to run from deep rarely.
    C. Depending on where you set mentality and defensive line, increase closing down on all but the defenders. If in vicinity of 15, max it out. Hard tackling on all four midfielders.
    D. Set both wingers to run from deep often. If still not enough, increase mentality. If still not enough, run with ball often and through balls often, increase creative freedom.
    E. Set both full backs to run from deep rarely. (I assume no CDs are ever told to run forward or anything)

    Now you should have the framework of a balanced 442. Using sliders is easy if you keep things simple (aka avoid Often settings on runs with or without the ball, crossing and through balls - when it is not necessary). The instructions for these central midfielders, for instance, can allow you to play both a deep-lying playmaker type and a hard-working tenacious midfielder type together without changing anything. The high passing skill and creativity of the former will make him play a more advanced passing game than his more simple-minded partner, so both will choose correctly precisely because you have not told him to do or not do anything (besides waiting with the forward runs). The same with the strikers; if you give them a bit more creative freedom they will choose to run forward quickly when that is the correct choice to make, despite being told to do so rarely. While a target man with no skill on the ball and no speed should of course be told to not run with the ball, if he is strong and has decent technique he will function nicely as a target man with these settings because he is strong and good in the air and he comes deep. If you don't have fast strikers, you will play differently, but it will still work because they will choose what is best on their own.

    Why try to outsmart the opponent with lots of tactical changes and whatnot when you can have your players do it for you?

    I think people who don't believe they know enough tactical theory to succeed in this game have just veered off on the wrong path. There is no need to read page upon page on tactical theory at all - there's so many variables in football (and in FM) that the very idea that there's a correct tactical choice for every situation is ridiculous. The answer to the question "what do I do now; I am overrun on the flanks and the cross on me all the time" is simply let your players have the options available to them that would let them stop the doubling-up on the flanks. Maybe their closing down is too low, so they back off, or maybe their mentality is too high so they tackle when they should have stayed on their feet, maybe you should drop deeper to deny them the space, maybe you should play narrower to plug holes between the CD and the DR/L, maybe wider to make the distance to close down smaller, maybe it has nothing to do with flank play at all but that you can't keep the possession, maybe it is nothing tactical at all - your team talk made them nervous or confidence is low because you are over your head as a rookie-reputation manager and your players don't trust you. Reading giant articles about this will probably confuse you more than help you, since when to do what require more than what can be written down in them.

    So, make it simple; don't tell them what to do in every situation. Avoid elaborate game-plans and the reliance on specific players doing specific things. Give them the option to do what must be done, but restrict them when it is necessary.

    If your slow, lumbering target man must be a quick poacher because a through ball was played in his direction, why not let him try? You might be surprised...
    I'll have another go. I started again last night and felt I was getting somewhere but then the had two games where I "should" have won but didn't. I know it was two games but I hadn't a clue what I was doing wrong. Looked like just bad defending to be honest and you can't stop a player defending badly. I pretty much raged quit as I hate having to play the game over again to win. This game is so frustrating! As it's hard to work out what went wrong, which is why I get annoyed because nothing I do can prevent a loss, if I can't identify the problem. I do appreciate the help, though! Cheers!
    Last edited by mrdorf; 25-05-2012 at 14:44.

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    I think the thing that annoys me most about finishing in general is that my teams very rarley square the ball for a simple tap in. Over the course of my two saves I have maybe seen it once or twice, yet I concede those types of goals from the AI much more often. I am yet to work out a formula to get my payers to square the ball for a tap in rather then try a shot from a extremely tight angle. The 'look to pass' PPM doesn't seem to help a great deal. I don't mind when I am 3-0 up my players trying their luck, but in a tight game when I have a player free to receive a square ball and tap it in to an empty net, my team almost always elect to shoot instead.

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    Sorry, I didn't understand anything because I don't speak english correctly. In this thread, Does anyone find a solution for the finishing problem with the last patch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFrancesco10 View Post
    Sorry, I didn't understand anything because I don't speak english correctly. In this thread, Does anyone find a solution for the finishing problem with the last patch?
    Your English seems fine.

    Solution: Improve your tactics as this thread has proven.

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    I'm italian, I have a basic preparation for the english language, but i can't understand 6 pages of this thread, this is too difficult for me.

    So, I have to work on the tactic? I tried many solutions about the tactic, but the problem is that my players aren't able to shot on target, they shot off target even when the goalkeeper there isn't

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    *national football stereotype warning*

    If anything a classic Italian catenaccio style will work wonders on the current match engine.

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    check this how i beat wigan 6-0 and then couldn't beat sunderland west brom and chealsea
    Last edited by manager2012; 21-06-2012 at 20:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    He perceives that good players are the be all and end all, whereas I believe they are important but not the only piece in the puzzle. Tactical, motivational and media management all play a part. Unless he learns this, then he'll always get frustrated and blame bugs for inevitable losses.
    That is that. Perfectly put

  59. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by iFrancesco10 View Post
    I'm italian, I have a basic preparation for the english language, but i can't understand 6 pages of this thread, this is too difficult for me.

    So, I have to work on the tactic? I tried many solutions about the tactic, but the problem is that my players aren't able to shot on target, they shot off target even when the goalkeeper there isn't
    The solution is to lower the attacking mentality, lower tempo and play wider football.

    However, misses like that can be motivational too. If they are overconfident they won't be focused enough, and will make mistakes - also in front of goal. If they are wound-up or nervous they will also lose focus and make mistakes. The motivational gadget will not necessarily inform you about either situation, and neither will green motivation arrows pre-match and at half-time.

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    Parma shots one time. And wins the match.


    Sampdoria never shots, but the match finishes 0-0. I'm in 2019, when I will win a Serie A if about the 60% of matches are like those!

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    Some players, I find, panic under pressure. Jelavic does this when I tell the team: "I expect a win."

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFrancesco10 View Post
    Parma shots one time. And wins the match.

    Sampdoria never shots, but the match finishes 0-0. I'm in 2019, when I will win a Serie A if about the 60% of matches are like those!
    Actually, 19/5 and 11/3 shots/shots on target are evidence of very poor attacking play. You had a lot of possession, but failed to create enough big chances. Less than 50% shot/shot on target ratio is a problem because it means your players are shooting when they shouldn't, so this is a case of either poor tactics, poor man management or team building - not poor programming.

    In other words, when the outcome is as you show here, FM is functioning as intended. However, if statistics and tactical instructions cannot explain why the user team is hyperinefficient while the AI is hyperefficient, then the user becomes a passenger of his own game and we have a problem. I think I showed such a case earlier in this thread, but changing tactics fixed the problem, so it seems like it was all user-created... although I think that the ME shouldn't respond in ways that makes it impossible to locate the tactical mistake, no matter what.

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    I completely understand Rangers being better at finishing than Caley Thistle. However they only had one clear cut chance, 3 half chances and scored 5 goals. Were they infused by the spirit of Pele and Van Basten?

    It's just this happens soo often on FM. It seems almost every game, the AI's first shot on target goes in. Doesn't matter if it's close in or far out, if it's an attack that isn't "X shoots" on the commentary, it's a goal. Kills any joy, when you know the AI is the ultimate finishing machine, with any player regardless of division or quality difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aderow View Post
    For the love of all that is good, stop looking at CCCs.

    Its pointless pointing out possession because its obvious that wigan sat back and let you have your way on most of the pitch.

    I'm not saying I have no issues with the ME, I just think that people focus too much on CCCs and get all mad because of it. (My main is the amount of shots a team can take when they are dominating the match greatly. I don't think I've ever seen a team take 45 shots in a match before).

    I've had plenty of matches where I've had 1 recorded CCC and have scored 4 goals.

    The reason I dislike that stat is because it is such an objective one.
    I think CCC must just mean 'one-on-one' with the keeper.... seems sensible idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawd View Post
    I think the thing that annoys me most about finishing in general is that my teams very rarley square the ball for a simple tap in. Over the course of my two saves I have maybe seen it once or twice, yet I concede those types of goals from the AI much more often. I am yet to work out a formula to get my payers to square the ball for a tap in rather then try a shot from a extremely tight angle. The 'look to pass' PPM doesn't seem to help a great deal. I don't mind when I am 3-0 up my players trying their luck, but in a tight game when I have a player free to receive a square ball and tap it in to an empty net, my team almost always elect to shoot instead.
    That was one of my bugbears about the FM12 m.e.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
    1 shot 1 goal http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/1.png

    9 shots, 7 on target 3 clear chances http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/2.png

    Low number of shots but all quality http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/3.png

    Same as above http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/4.png

    http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/5.png

    I'm the AI in your game http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/6.png

    As you can see we can easily do what the AI does.

    It's quality what counts not how many.

    haha Fulham had 5 clear cut chances against you. You were probably just lucky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lampuiho View Post
    haha Fulham had 5 clear cut chances against you. You were probably just lucky.
    Necrobump of the year?

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    I was going to post about the number of User vs AI goals scored from goalmouth scrambles, but whats the point? FM14 is done and dusted and I hold out very little hope of the core issues of the game being addressed.

    Instead we can no doubt look forward to even more irrelevant press conference responses that have nothing to do with the questions being asked...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    Necrobump of the year?
    Indeed lol

    Though since this is back, I wouldn't be surprised if the AI cheats abit, it has to or the game gets too easy to fast for non-hardcore players (hell, something simple like a 3rd party scouting tool gives the player a massive advantage)
    Infact, AI cheating (or being given a 'balancing factor') is common in most games using them
    Frustrating? Yes
    End of the world? Nah
    Just remember, despite all the progress in the past many decades, game AI is still weak against a human player, limits of development times and available technology will hold it back for sometime yet
    Last edited by DeadZone; 02-09-2013 at 02:34.

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    AI isnt always better at finishing...


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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadZone View Post
    Indeed lol

    Though since this is back, I wouldn't be surprised if the AI cheats abit, it has to or the game gets too easy to fast for non-hardcore players (hell, something simple like a 3rd party scouting tool gives the player a massive advantage)
    Infact, AI cheating (or being given a 'balancing factor') is common in most games using them
    Frustrating? Yes
    End of the world? Nah
    Just remember, despite all the progress in the past many decades, game AI is still weak against a human player, limits of development times and available technology will hold it back for sometime yet
    There is no cheating, artificial bias or rubber-banding in the match engine, at all - it's just a (very complex and sophisticated) tool that processes the information fed into it.

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    Paul C, had said... so many times, that the ME is the same for AI and human teams. So it's impossible to have some sort of cheating. Simple as that.

  73. #573
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    Part of me feels like the game tries to create certain scenarios all too often, goals in injury time, teams scoring from there only shot and having only 23% possession, crosses drifting in....maybe i'm wrong and i'm just REALLY ANGRY that i'm 11 points behind city and am going to finish second AGAIN !!!!!!!

  74. #574
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    Human nature is to remember all those things that go against us, no matter how small, while forgetting about all but the biggest victories.

    In short: we all love being miserable.

  75. #575
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    I win most matches, and the AI has mostly most shots... So the AI is not mucht better in finishing.

  76. #576
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    I'm routinely watching my players get in each others way, tap ins go over the cross bar, players ruining tap ins by taking an extra touch with an open goal mouth... the list of atrocities goes on and on. I built this tactic from scratch and it works, i'm regularly placing highly in the premier league with a quality team, but results like the ones mentioned here are what's really killing this game for me. These regular occurrences are what costs me a genuine shot at the title every season.

    Essentially my game is based around possession and creating 10 odd chances a game, 2-3 ccc's and a half dozen or so half chances. It took me a while to get it right but that's what i've created and it works perfectly, the massive issue i have is my players refuse to finish off. Earlier on when i was less of a threat, i was creating the EXACT SAME chances and scoring goals, the only difference being i would cop more due to poor defence so i wasn't too phased then. But now, my defense is superb and my strikers who've matured and got better just refuse to score from the same chances. I don't even get excited when a player gets in behind for a 1 on 1 now because they NEVER finish it. I've tweaked my dead ball routine's to the point where i get a free header or 2 nearly every game and i don't get excited about them either because they always end up over the cross bar. Opposition keepers routinely make 3-4 saves of the year while mine (4 star keeper) regularly parries his one straight forward on target save for the game into the net.

    It's extremely frustrating the way that this game forces my players to waste chances. I'm routinely seeing players (no matter their preffered foot/side) shooting into the side netting rather than trying to put it across the keeper (finishing 101, right?) and the once or twice a game they do actually do it, it usually ends up near the corner flag. headers from a dead ball are over the bar, free or not, that is a given to me now. I'm genuinely shocked every time (and by every time i mean the 3 times it's happened in the last 100 odd games) that a player heads the ball down rather than blasting it over the bar into the 8th row.

    And the more i've played it, the more i've realised what it is: it's SI doing their best FIFA impersonation. The better your players/team are, the worse they play. The ammount of times i've had 25 shots to 3 or 4 and had a 1-1 draw despite creating 4-5 goals that have been butchered by the game is astonishing.
    Last edited by Jonesy_NT; 04-07-2014 at 19:30.

  77. #577
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    Results liked the ones mentioned here were, for one thing, based on a much earlier version of the Match Engine, since this thread is almost a year old.

    Having said that, the same points that other mentioned in the previous few posts still apply:

    There is no cheating, artificial bias or rubber-banding in the match engine, at all - it's just a (very complex and sophisticated) tool that processes the information fed into it.
    Paul C, had said... so many times, that the ME is the same for AI and human teams. So it's impossible to have some sort of cheating. Simple as that.
    The ME is not perfect, and I'm not going to pretend it is. But some of what you've said sounds like it's tactical. If you are genuinely interested in making your team work better, in taking those chances, head over to the Tactics Forum, get as much information up there about what you're doing and people who know the game inside out, including those who worked on the tactical side of the game, are happy to analyse and suggest where your tactic could be more effective.

  78. #578
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    and of course none of that is your fault

    Your first problem is expecting the same tactic to work all the time against different opposition & your second is saying that your tactic is "Perfect" despite being unhappy with its results.

    You need to learn there is no "Perfect" tactic and you need to be able to identify when yours isn't working + be able to make the chances which allows you to gain those extra points.

  79. #579
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    Damn. My strikers didn't get the memo then. They're very good and scoring at a better rate than the best strikers IRL.

  80. #580
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    Do you OFTEN tweak your tactics according to the opponent you´re facing?

  81. #581
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    Me? No. Same tactic for most games. I only use a different tactic against the big 3 teams in the league.

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