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Thread: Why is the AI so much better at finishing?

  1. #401
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    I've changed it so that the sweeper is now a centre back and I've moved the CM into the CDM position, we'll see how this tightens things up at the back.

    Thanks.

  2. #402
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    A quick question, is 2 CM's in the centre set to advanced play maker overkill or can it work?

  3. #403
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    Yeah, Biggus is absolutely right. The basic positioning for the two central defenders looks like this:



    Seeing that should set the alarm bells ringing in an instant. The first barca goal comes from this (a pass goes to the striker in acres of space):



    Now that's what you call a clear cut chance! In that amount of space he could make a coffee, drink it, read the morning papers and still have plenty of time left to finish off the chance. The other goal is due to bugged marking during throw-ins, but still.

    With that kind of set-up you absolutely do have to prevent shots altogether to stop them from scoring.

  4. #404
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    Next game against Betis they have 3 SOT and get 3 goals.

    1 close range header, a curling screamer from outside the box and a through ball to their striker who's on the edge of the box who then turns and places it into the net.

    Mmmmmmmmmmmmm.

  5. #405
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    Just play with two identical Stoppers and move the BWM to DM-Defend (no Hold up ball, Hard Tackling), and all your defensive problems will go away. I don't know if this will have any negative consequences for your attacking play, though. It seemed fine in the second attempt where I won 2-0. I set both MC's to Attacking instead of Support duties as well.

  6. #406
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    Cheers BiggusD, I'll give your recommendations a go.

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    ArsenalFan7, all I can say is what works for me defensively.


    I use the TC to set up a very fluid, highly creative, counter attacking system, and I try to out number players attacking my defence, and ditto for my forwards attacking them:




    I keep practically all settings and player instructions set to default, accept time-wasting (which can be a personal affect dependant on opponents), and I have tried CA ticked, but I prefer to try to keep the ball more. And I instruct my FBs and IFs to CROSS-BALL OFTEN and MIXED AIM:


    Hope this helps.

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    Cheers for all your help :-)

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    I've had success (in FM11) using 3 at the back, LB CB RB, but IMO it needs 3 central midfielders to support it, that allows 4 attacking players (assymmetrical 3-4-3), which more often than not for me means a LW-FW-FW-FW, because I don't have a RW nearly as good as my top 5 or 6 strikers. It does concede a few goals, esp. on the counter, but its what I use against teams I figure will set up shop, not too often against my main rivals. The fullbacks are fast, the CB is extremely dominant aerially, but I find having too high a line doesn't help my forwards, who are all quicks, so they like to have a bit of space to run into.

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    Using the advice given but the AI has still had a stupid SOT to goal conversion rate.

    I can dominate all I like, it's not much use lately.




  11. #411
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    Basically your tactic is so attacking that whenever the AI do get a half decent break they'll have all the space in the world to exploit. That's always going to be the trade off. If you want this to improve you have to sacrifice a bit of your attacking power and have more men back to help out. Alternatively, as you're doing just fine in the bigger picture, you could just accept that you can't have an awesome all-conquering attacking tactic that won't get you caught short-numbered at the back sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Äktsjon Männ View Post
    Basically your tactic is so attacking that whenever the AI do get a half decent break they'll have all the space in the world to exploit. That's always going to be the trade off. If you want this to improve you have to sacrifice a bit of your attacking power and have more men back to help out. Alternatively, as you're doing just fine in the bigger picture, you could just accept that you can't have an awesome all-conquering attacking tactic that won't get you caught short-numbered at the back sometimes.
    This is an educated guess at best. With your kind of logic, he should also score a lot more because he may not have all the space in the world but he's having many chances. Unless you want to justify this by saying that having many chances means that most of his chances are not real chances, which would be ridiculous.

    When SI fixes (not that they are going to) this yearly problem then people who try to make sense of it will come around and say, "yeah, that needed fixing.."

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSH View Post
    This is an educated guess at best. With your kind of logic, he should also score a lot more because he may not have all the space in the world but he's having many chances. Unless you want to justify this by saying that having many chances means that most of his chances are not real chances, which would be ridiculous.

    When SI fixes (not that they are going to) this yearly problem then people who try to make sense of it will come around and say, "yeah, that needed fixing.."
    Did you take a look at his tactics? Or the pkm of the Barcelona match? It's an ultra attacking 4-3-3 without wide forward players and full backs that basically hug the byline at the other end of the pitch. Only defensive players are the centre backs who have to cover all the space across the backline. It almost never concedes possession - Barca barely got out of their half in that match - but when it does there's insane amount of space for the opposition to exploit. His chances on the other end are against packed defenses - and he takes them at a league leading rate. Where's the problem exactly?

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    Next game, Almeria (relegation zone side) get one shot on target and it's a goal. (a header from a indirect free kick)

    I think I may be cursed or just insanely unlucky?




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    Quote Originally Posted by TSH View Post
    This is an educated guess at best. With your kind of logic, he should also score a lot more because he may not have all the space in the world but he's having many chances. Unless you want to justify this by saying that having many chances means that most of his chances are not real chances, which would be ridiculous.

    When SI fixes (not that they are going to) this yearly problem then people who try to make sense of it will come around and say, "yeah, that needed fixing.."
    If you go back through this thread you will realise that he does score significantly more than his opponents, his concern was for the apparent efficiency of the AI's finishing which in all likelihood can put but down to the lack of a coherent defensive structure to his tactic.

    Giving that he took the time to upload it & a few of us have had a look at it I think most of what has been said since is more than educated guesswork.

    Edit: Beaten to it.

    @ArsenalFan - it will take time for your players to adjust their new tactical instructions, I assume you have set a few extra players to a more defensive mindset?

    It is also worth remembering that the stats your team are consistently putting up are also unrealistic, you need to find a balance within your tactical approach & if that means you have half as many chances but increase your conversion rate by 3 times then that all is well.

    Edit 2: Have you tried watching the full match for a few games? I managed to nailed down & iron out a number of flaws in my tactics after switched to watching the entire match, it's very time consuming but worth it as you see so much more of what is wrong in the bits that the highlights do not show.
    Last edited by Barside; 12-04-2012 at 20:55.

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    To save you messing, ArsenalFan7, you can take a look at my tactic here: https://rapidshare.com/files/1463409196/433count.tac


    See what you make of it, and use it at your leisure.


    This is the kinda stats it can display:











  17. #417
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    I think we've reached the point where you might want to considered heading over to the tactics forum.

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    Next game, Almeria (relegation zone side) get one shot on target and it's a goal. (a header from a indirect free kick)

    I think I may be cursed or just insanely unlucky?

    I'm confused as to why you think you are cursed or insanely unlucky?

    You've already stated earlier in the thread that you've let less goals in than any other team in the league and we've already seen that your scoring ratios are similar or better than the AI.


    What do you expect to achieve?

    Are your expectations realistic?

  19. #419
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    Because virtually every shot the AI gets on target ends up in the net as a goal?

    I expect to win and I am doing this for the most part but I'm trying to get to the bottom of the issue as to why I'm constantly conceding so simply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bullybeef View Post
    To save you messing, ArsenalFan7, you can take a look at my tactic here: https://rapidshare.com/files/1463409196/433count.tac
    Cheers again, I'll give it a shot but will have to adjust the formation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    I think we've reached the point where you might want to considered heading over to the tactics forum.
    I shall take a look at some of the threads over there and further adjust tactics.

  21. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    Because virtually every shot the AI gets on target ends up in the net as a goal?

    I expect to win and I am doing this but I'm trying to get to the bottom of the issue as to why I'm constantly conceding so simply.

    But thats only your perception.

    You crunched the numbers earlier and your stats show that the AI teams are scoring 0.51 goals for each shot on target against you.

    In comparison you are scoring 0.46 goals per shot on target from your own calculations - very similar.


    Other forum members have also pointed out how your tactics are extremely attacking. The downside of using tactics like that are when the opposition do get behind and counter attack you are going to give up decent/good scoring opportunities.

    If you want to have a better defence you need to sacrifice some of the attack.

  22. #422

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    Its a dominating ATTACK, not a dominating tactic. Its imbalanced, and there is nothing wrong with that, but the imbalance means when the opposition gets a chance its going to be a good chance. Its a tradeoff, and even though you feel hard done by this is your choice of tactic and style of play. Another tactic could easily get you as many goals, but its unlikely to keep as much possession or generate as many half chances. If you like possession and half chances, and being scored on, on the counter, then you already have the perfect tactic

    I prefer goals. If scoring 4 means conceding 1 then I very much prefer that over scoring two, with chance of clean sheet. Thats why one of my favorite formations is using a RM, and on the other flank a LW. Decent for defending, and good for attacking as well.

  23. #423
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    Because virtually every shot the AI gets on target ends up in the net as a goal?

    I expect to win and I am doing this for the most part but I'm trying to get to the bottom of the issue as to why I'm constantly conceding so simply.
    When we were working on the TC, we tested a number of classic formations, including the totatvoetball tactic. We also tested the Pyramid, the Metodo, the Swissbolt, the Catenaccio, the Zona Mista and a few others. There were two reasons for the testing. Firstly, to see if the TC could produce realistic looking football in any formation. Secondly, to see if modern tactics got better results in the ME, which is importance for its robustness. We found that the closer the tactical shape to modern formations, the better it tended to perform. Hence, the Swissbolt tended to beat the Pyramid, the Zona Mista the Swissbolt, the totalvoetball the Zona Mista, and the modern 4-2-3-1 all of them.

    The classic tactic section of TT&F evolved out of these tests, with Millie, especially, interested in seeing whether it were possible to recreate a successful totalvoetball style and have it be competitive against modern formations. I never fully agreed with the final shape, believing that the totalvoetball formation played with a DMC and Sweeper, not a DC and Sweeper. I also believed it should never be more attacking than the Standard strategy, and that most roles should be Defend or Support. However, it was Millie's project and that was the extent of my input.

    As the OP has illustrated, the tactic obviously works, but does have some predictable issues in defence, especially if the user is playing very aggressively. As others have pointed out, the full backs play very high and wide, which, while helping keep possession by providing extra passing options, also results in the opposition, should they win the ball, having acres of space to exploit on the break. This space is not helped by the DC and Sweeper playing so close to each other, which I believe is partly a bug and partly inherent to the formation as theorised in TT&F.

    What I would suggest to the OP is that he gives up on trying to make relatively experimental tactical shapes deliver perfect football results. The ME tends to reward modern shapes better than classic ones. If one prefers to play controlled or counter attacking football, I'd recommend a 4-2-3-1 deep, the Mourinho 4-5-1/4-3-3, or the formation posted by bullybeef above. If one wants to play a little more aggressively and directly, then the 4-4-2 is a great option. Once you have mastered the basic modern formations, you can then showboat with more experimental ones such as totalvoetball, the 4-6-0, the 3-6-1 etc. Or try to recreate national styles, such as the Argentinian 4-3-1-2, with the one being an enganche. To do so, however, you need to be really comfortable with the logic of the TC and real life football tactical theory.

    Or, of course, just be happy with the football you are playing and the results you are getting, while accepting that you will concede soft goals against because of the inherent weakness of the totalvoetball shape.
    Last edited by wwfan; 14-04-2012 at 00:09.

  24. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSH View Post
    This is an educated guess at best. With your kind of logic, he should also score a lot more because he may not have all the space in the world but he's having many chances. Unless you want to justify this by saying that having many chances means that most of his chances are not real chances, which would be ridiculous.

    When SI fixes (not that they are going to) this yearly problem then people who try to make sense of it will come around and say, "yeah, that needed fixing.."
    Although this has already been replied to twice, I feel it is still worth commenting on. The AI conversion problem is one all of the users' own making, in terms of tactical approach and perception bias. The evidence gathered in this thread alone is overwhelming. You can add to this evidence all the evidence we've gathered from similar threads over the years, all, and I mean all, of which have shown that the perceived problem in conversion is always either down to perception bias or an unbalanced tactic.

    It won't be fixed as there's nothing that needs fixing. What might happen, however, is that the AI and ME becomes robust enough to stop aggressive tactics dominating the match stats so heavily. That this is possible is the issue, not that the conversion ratios are flawed. If anything, they are too liberal. It is too easy to convert.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    Although this has already been replied to twice, I feel it is still worth commenting on. The AI conversion problem is one all of the users' own making, in terms of tactical approach and perception bias. The evidence gathered in this thread alone is overwhelming. You can add to this evidence all the evidence we've gathered from similar threads over the years, all, and I mean all, of which have shown that the perceived problem in conversion is always either down to perception bias or an unbalanced tactic.

    It won't be fixed as there's nothing that needs fixing. What might happen, however, is that the AI and ME becomes robust enough to stop aggressive tactics dominating the match stats so heavily. That this is possible is the issue, not that the conversion ratios are flawed. If anything, they are too liberal. It is too easy to convert.
    the evidinces you're talking about here don't address 1 thing: player stats. you can say all you want about tactics but not all players will score 1 goal on a CA in 1 chance through a whole match. and about the evidence here it also shows that world class strikers are as good as a lower league striker. again player stats don't matter.
    and since there is no bias, why is it that when i CA through the wings the AI FR/FL are able to keep up with my winger and intercept the cross but my FBs are also able to keep up with their wingers and pressure them and yet their cross is perfect into the lonely striker that is between 2 DCs? and i'm talking about general AI teams, small big whetever, my wingers have better stats and yet in same situations the result is totally different. and morale is fine.
    EDIT:
    and regarding the statistics they prove nothing, they show that overall the conversion ratio are fine, they don't show any quality of gameplays and they don't show anything about player stats. you can cry all you want that the statistics are fine but ppl started this thread compalaining about specific matches and you are trying to make it go to overall matches because you know that will be good for your side. nothing in this discussion was answered by you or any other mods about our strikers missing 1vs1 which happens ALOT against AI meanwhile i had Casillas defend ZERO 1vs1 in 3 seasons and hardly see any AI striker missing a 1vs1 be it a good or a bad player. it's not hard to put the ME "force" the statistics and in fact it seems that our players are missing way too many goals to keep the statistics right because if they didn't waste so many shots on taget as they did the results would be unrealistic.
    Another problem is also long shots, any moron AI player will score from outside the box if they are the underdogs, now put xavi alonso, william, douglas costa, ronaldo making long shots with no opposition and see how many times they waste them...
    Another problem mods never answer is why is a 1 striker alone in the box, 2 DCs near him and noone else near the area and neither will pressure the striker. and i'm talking about world class DCs.
    you know what else the statistics show? that any AI coach is able to make a good tactic or counter us. that ain't realistic...unless you think everyone else here is a bad manager or in RL all teams have the same statistics even though they have different tactics, morale, managers and players...
    Last edited by deathspawn666; 13-04-2012 at 17:57.

  26. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    unless you think everyone else here is a bad manager
    Not everyone, but those who struggle most are usually those with the least tactical knowledge, even if they think different.

  27. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Not everyone, but those who struggle most are usually those with the least tactical knowledge, even if they think different.
    yes but that's only 1 part of the equation, you also have morale, reputation, player stats, AI manager stats (do they even matter???)), weather conditions, playing home or away, adepts, and maybe referees mistakes but this would be dangerous to put in the game...you can be a bad manager but if you get a good team and good players you should be able to at least run for the top of the table...just look at Mancini, tbh i find him a bad manager and yet he's on 2nd place in PL...is this possible in FM12? NO because players stats hardly matter and any AI manager will be better then you and able to exploit you tactics weakness and keep in mind that just because you know the opposition weakness and you know how to counter it it doesn't mean that your players should be able to do it and yet in FM12 any AI manager will be able to see the weakness and AI players will be able to do the new tactic the AI gives them
    Last edited by deathspawn666; 13-04-2012 at 18:45.

  28. #428

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    So pretty much you are in denial (saying statistics prove nothing is illogical). And you don't rate Mancini as a manager.

    If your teams weaknesses have been exposed ONE time, by one manager, then other managers can view footage of that game, and use the same exploit, if you haven't resolved the problem!

    I manage two teams simultaneously, and I've had 3 European finals AGAINST myself, in the last 5 seasons. So I am pretty sure the opposition aren't THAT clever!

    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    yes but that's only 1 part of the equation, you also have morale, reputation, player stats, AI manager stats (do they even matter???)), weather conditions, playing home or away, adepts, and maybe referees mistakes but this would be dangerous to put in the game...you can be a bad manager but if you get a good team and good players you should be able to at least run for the top of the table...just look at Mancini, tbh i find him a bad manager and yet he's on 2nd place in PL...is this possible in FM12? NO because players stats hardly matter and any AI manager will be better then you and able to exploit you tactics weakness and keep in mind that just because you know the opposition weakness and you know how to counter it it doesn't mean that your players should be able to do it and yet in FM12 any AI manager will be able to see the weakness and AI players will be able to do the new tactic the AI gives them

  29. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    yes but that's only 1 part of the equation, you also have morale, reputation, player stats, AI manager stats (do they even matter???)), weather conditions, playing home or away, adepts, and maybe referees mistakes but this would be dangerous to put in the game...you can be a bad manager but if you get a good team and good players you should be able to at least run for the top of the table...just look at Mancini, tbh i find him a bad manager and yet he's on 2nd place in PL...is this possible in FM12? NO because players stats hardly matter and any AI manager will be better then you and able to exploit you tactics weakness and keep in mind that just because you know the opposition weakness and you know how to counter it it doesn't mean that your players should be able to do it and yet in FM12 any AI manager will be able to see the weakness and AI players will be able to do the new tactic the AI gives them
    The AI can't exploit anything. It's extremely basic in it's nature - it can only see reputation, match odds and the shape of your tactic. It can also do basic reactins to some specific conditions like going a goal down or taking a lead. If you use a balanced TC tactic you are on a level playing field and you absolutely can take Man City to 2nd in the league with hardly any extra effort.

  30. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    yes but that's only 1 part of the equation, you also have morale, reputation, player stats, AI manager stats (do they even matter???)), weather conditions, playing home or away, adepts, and maybe referees mistakes but this would be dangerous to put in the game...
    Which are tied into each other, if you have a good tactic and good control over your players moral will be good, reputation will increase and eventually you will be top dog. Good tactics breed success, which breeds happiness. Bad tactics encourage threads like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    you can be a bad manager but if you get a good team and good players you should be able to at least run for the top of the table...just look at Mancini, tbh i find him a bad manager and yet he's on 2nd place in PL...is this possible in FM12? NO because players stats hardly matter and any AI manager will be better then you and able to exploit you tactics weakness and keep in mind that just because you know the opposition weakness and you know how to counter it it doesn't mean that your players should be able to do it and yet in FM12 any AI manager will be able to see the weakness and AI players will be able to do the new tactic the AI gives them
    There is a big difference to you thinking someone is poor and them actually being poor, Mancini is a good manager, otherwise City would not be 2nd and pushing for the title. You should not be able to succeed at this game if your terrible at it, same goes for every game out there.

    The AI does not attack ME weaknesses and i think your giving the AI too much respect. Its not this all seeing AI that will pick you appart unless your a tactical genius, it uses the same tools we do, and usually much worse than we can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles-the-victorious View Post
    So pretty much you are in denial (saying statistics prove nothing is illogical). And you don't rate Mancini as a manager.

    If your teams weaknesses have been exposed ONE time, by one manager, then other managers can view footage of that game, and use the same exploit, if you haven't resolved the problem!

    I manage two teams simultaneously, and I've had 3 European finals AGAINST myself, in the last 5 seasons. So I am pretty sure the opposition aren't THAT clever!
    hahaha denial? you are the one who doesn't know what an average statistic mean...average doesn't show the the maximum, neither minimum and neither other things that are important to analyze something. making assumptions based only on average goals ratio is dumb, it doesnt say if you had 4 shots and 2 goals or 8 shots and 4 goals and neither does say about the quality of those shots so using them to say that ME is fine is pure fail. and from your point of view the ME could even make the stats even if they didn't make any sense for the tactic you're using and you would still accept it lol.
    also about the part of the weakness, by our logic once a tactic shows a weakness everyone can see it and will be able to counter it. do you even watch football??? just beacuse you know the weakness and theorical aproach to counter it it doesnt mean you will be able to do it, it doesn't mean your players wil be able to do it...in FM they WILL be able to do it always. yeah it's realistic alright.
    and i don't rate mancini as manager? wait what? i can't have my opinion? if he's such a good manager why didn't he win the champs with the same team as mourinho did? right mancini is really good and mourinho just sucks.
    Last edited by wwfan; 13-04-2012 at 22:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Äktsjon Männ View Post
    The AI can't exploit anything. It's extremely basic in it's nature - it can only see reputation, match odds and the shape of your tactic. It can also do basic reactins to some specific conditions like going a goal down or taking a lead. If you use a balanced TC tactic you are on a level playing field and you absolutely can take Man City to 2nd in the league with hardly any extra effort.
    and why should i use a balanced tactic? how many games do you see big team playing defensive against smallt teams? very few times. how many times small teams win due to CA tactics and other team going too offensive? very few. now try that in FM...

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Which are tied into each other, if you have a good tactic and good control over your players moral will be good, reputation will increase and eventually you will be top dog. Good tactics breed success, which breeds happiness. Bad tactics encourage threads like this.



    There is a big difference to you thinking someone is poor and them actually being poor, Mancini is a good manager, otherwise City would not be 2nd and pushing for the title. You should not be able to succeed at this game if your terrible at it, same goes for every game out there.

    The AI does not attack ME weaknesses and i think your giving the AI too much respect. Its not this all seeing AI that will pick you appart unless your a tactical genius, it uses the same tools we do, and usually much worse than we can.
    i am already the big dog, playing with RM, thrashing Barcelona every time we face off with at least 3 goals difference because my players actually play good on that match. then comes the small team and suddenly players have even better oportuneties due to lower pressure from AI and now they can't hit the nets, shots go way off the GK... same tactic, morale good, teamtalk didn't do any problem and yet they play like morons. if it was 1 game i could live with it, in RL if that happens once manager will talk to players, explain situation, tell them what was bad and if they're good they will learn. now let's go to FM, you have stupid teamtalks that will only affect morale but not fix their attitude in future games against small teams...

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    So did you see Wigan vs Man U the other day, by any chance?

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    You are asking players to fix their attitudes towards small teams. You just admitted you play small teams pretty much the exact same way you would play Barcelona, and win 3-0.

    The game is telling you that the matches against small opponents require a different approach, but you are being stubborn, or you are just not a fast learner.

    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    i am already the big dog, playing with RM, thrashing Barcelona every time we face off with at least 3 goals difference because my players actually play good on that match. then comes the small team and suddenly players have even better oportuneties due to lower pressure from AI and now they can't hit the nets, shots go way off the GK... same tactic, morale good, teamtalk didn't do any problem and yet they play like morons. if it was 1 game i could live with it, in RL if that happens once manager will talk to players, explain situation, tell them what was bad and if they're good they will learn. now let's go to FM, you have stupid teamtalks that will only affect morale but not fix their attitude in future games against small teams...

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    and why should i use a balanced tactic? how many games do you see big team playing defensive against smallt teams? very few times. how many times small teams win due to CA tactics and other team going too offensive? very few. now try that in FM...
    How often do you see any team going all gung ho from start to finish against anyone? Do you think a high tempo kick and rush approach is effective against stacked defenses? Of course big teams will be more attacking in their approach against smaller teams but that does not mean they don't have to know how to be patient in their build up.

    And by balanced tactics I meant a logical set up of roles and duties, not defensive mentality. Why do you have to you use a balanced tactic? You don't. It's your choice. Just as it is your choice to be frustrated if your approach fails against a team defending well and getting their share of good fortune against you. Your ranting here serves no useful purpose though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    the evidinces you're talking about here don't address 1 thing: player stats. you can say all you want about tactics but not all players will score 1 goal on a CA in 1 chance through a whole match. and about the evidence here it also shows that world class strikers are as good as a lower league striker. again player stats don't matter.
    Statistical variations between levels do not exist. World class strikers in top leagues convert at exactly the same ratio as a good striker for the level at any level. Studies on this have measured conversion levels between the World Cup and US Ladies College Soccer. There are no recorded instances of any striker, anywhere converting any type of chance other than penalties at a better ratio than 1 goal in 3 shots over the course of a career. And even that is pretty much unheard of.


    and since there is no bias, why is it that when i CA through the wings the AI FR/FL are able to keep up with my winger and intercept the cross but my FBs are also able to keep up with their wingers and pressure them and yet their cross is perfect into the lonely striker that is between 2 DCs? and i'm talking about general AI teams, small big whetever, my wingers have better stats and yet in same situations the result is totally different. and morale is fine.
    EDIT:
    and regarding the statistics they prove nothing, they show that overall the conversion ratio are fine, they don't show any quality of gameplays and they don't show anything about player stats. you can cry all you want that the statistics are fine but ppl started this thread compalaining about specific matches and you are trying to make it go to overall matches because you know that will be good for your side. nothing in this discussion was answered by you or any other mods about our strikers missing 1vs1 which happens ALOT against AI meanwhile i had Casillas defend ZERO 1vs1 in 3 seasons and hardly see any AI striker missing a 1vs1 be it a good or a bad player. it's not hard to put the ME "force" the statistics and in fact it seems that our players are missing way too many goals to keep the statistics right because if they didn't waste so many shots on taget as they did the results would be unrealistic.
    This is all perception bias. Over the years I've been sent and watched many pkms in which the user has complained the ME/AI is against him. In every one, the user's chances were extremely one-dimensional and nowhere near as good as they had stated in their complaint. Moreover, they usually relied on the corner exploit to score their first goal (which the AI doesn't and can't do), after which they tended to score more as the AI team was forced to open up more in search of an equaliser.

    Indeed, in one match I was forwarded, the user complained he only won 2-1 in ET after dominating the shot count by circa 35-8. However, on viewing the pkm, it was patently obvious that maybe only 3 (maximum) of the 35 shots were of the same quality as any of the AI's eight. The user was actually very lucky in winning. In another experiment, I proved that the "best super-tactic" massively underperformed a dynamic TC-style tactic in which users were making logical, in-match decisions, with the former having a very poor open play goal conversion (again relying on the corner exploit) whereas the latter scored open play goals from all angles. A similar experiment in FML illustrated how logical in-match decision making nearly always beat "super-tactics", having roughly a 70%-20%-10% WDL record against them.

    The AI cannot make decisions with anywhere near this level of sophistication. However, it does use the same basic logic, which at least keeps it competitive against any form of exploitive tactic.


    Another problem is also long shots, any moron AI player will score from outside the box if they are the underdogs, now put xavi alonso, william, douglas costa, ronaldo making long shots with no opposition and see how many times they waste them...
    It will be down to the space they are in, which will be a tactical issue (often down to users playing 4 attacking mentality players in the AM/F strata, defensive mentality defenders, and only two MCs protecting the middle). In contrast, AI tactics built on TC logic do not leave this space.


    Another problem mods never answer is why is a 1 striker alone in the box, 2 DCs near him and noone else near the area and neither will pressure the striker. and i'm talking about world class DCs.
    There is a bug in defensive tracking, which can leave strikers in too much space. However, it affects user and AI alike.


    you know what else the statistics show? that any AI coach is able to make a good tactic or counter us. that ain't realistic...unless you think everyone else here is a bad manager or in RL all teams have the same statistics even though they have different tactics, morale, managers and players...
    The TC guarantees some level of structural logic, which means none of the AI tactics will be inherently bad. However, the AI cannot make sophisticated in match decisions, giving the proactive user a massive, massive advantage. As the stats illustrate, the user manager has a huge conversion advantage, even when he thinks he hasn't. As long as the user isn't doing anything stupid, he'll always have the edge.


    i am already the big dog, playing with RM, thrashing Barcelona every time we face off with at least 3 goals difference because my players actually play good on that match. then comes the small team and suddenly players have even better oportuneties due to lower pressure from AI and now they can't hit the nets, shots go way off the GK... same tactic, morale good, teamtalk didn't do any problem and yet they play like morons. if it was 1 game i could live with it, in RL if that happens once manager will talk to players, explain situation, tell them what was bad and if they're good they will learn. now let's go to FM, you have stupid teamtalks that will only affect morale but not fix their attitude in future games against small teams...
    This is not a morale issue. It is a tactical one common to users who play with big sides and expect to dominate every match without working hard at it. As you've summed up here...


    and why should i use a balanced tactic? how many games do you see big team playing defensive against smallt teams? very few times. how many times small teams win due to CA tactics and other team going too offensive? very few. now try that in FM...
    ... you don't have a good grasp of real life tactical theory or how FM interprets it. Only the Defend and Contain strategies are "defensive". All the other strategies are focused on beating the opposition. Counter Attack is somewhat defined by the notion of "Attack", keeping the ball deep then striking ruthlessly as space opens up. Standard and Control are all about trying to patiently break the opposition down. Attacking is about trying to dominate in the final third (Overload more so), which is obviously difficult to do if the opposition are packing bodies into it. You simply have to play more patiently against packed defences. If you don't, you start to rely on the ability of high quality players to convert difficult chances at pace and under pressure. Only the individual quality of the player begins to matter. In this instance, a player's form and morale begin to be key.

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    can you link the study please? (not doubting you btw, would really like to pu my eyes on it)
    about the long shots, when i have 1 DC or DM right in front of the AI player less then 1 meter from him and he still shoots like he's free and scores then there is clearly a problem and the GK is not advanced. my long shot players need to be completely alone to be able to score from a long shot.
    about the dcs bug, hum would you then agree that teams playing with 1 striker that gets between 2 dcs have an advantage over teams with 2 strikers? goes both ways ofc (AI and human). i usually play with 2 strikers and usually don't have the "advantage" of the bug and that might give me the feeling that is biased.
    about the AI tactics, i've seen AI change tactics in the half time and i've had conceed goals in the first minute of the 2nd half without being able to do any tactic adjustment after the match starts. even if it's not biased my advice for future improvement would be to "avoid" those situations on the ME because we aren't able to see the AI tactic changes effects in the 1st minute. i know this can happen in RL but i never was able to do it.
    about underdogs, no i don't expect to dominate the match against small teams however my problem is i actually do dominate but strikers just go dumb mode and miss CCC, i would rather not dominate, create less chances and score. and yes the goal chances are good, lots 1vs1, how better can you get??...should i avoid that? btw i noticed GKs never goes out of the net to try to reduce the angle, maybe a future improvement for the game?
    intereristing statement about the CA tactic on FM interpretation, i thought it was mainly defensive

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    I am now 11 league games into my new season and I have scored 40 whilst only conceding 2, 1 of those being a penalty, so I believe with your help and a few defensive, tactical adjustments the issue is no longer there, at least from what I've seen from the opening to the season.

    So yes, thanks all, I guess that's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    can you link the study please? (not doubting you btw, would really like to pu my eyes on it)
    about the long shots, when i have 1 DC or DM right in front of the AI player less then 1 meter from him and he still shoots like he's free and scores then there is clearly a problem and the GK is not advanced. my long shot players need to be completely alone to be able to score from a long shot.
    about the dcs bug, hum would you then agree that teams playing with 1 striker that gets between 2 dcs have an advantage over teams with 2 strikers? goes both ways ofc (AI and human). i usually play with 2 strikers and usually don't have the "advantage" of the bug and that might give me the feeling that is biased.
    about the AI tactics, i've seen AI change tactics in the half time and i've had conceed goals in the first minute of the 2nd half without being able to do any tactic adjustment after the match starts. even if it's not biased my advice for future improvement would be to "avoid" those situations on the ME because we aren't able to see the AI tactic changes effects in the 1st minute. i know this can happen in RL but i never was able to do it.
    about underdogs, no i don't expect to dominate the match against small teams however my problem is i actually do dominate but strikers just go dumb mode and miss CCC, i would rather not dominate, create less chances and score. and yes the goal chances are good, lots 1vs1, how better can you get??...should i avoid that? btw i noticed GKs never goes out of the net to try to reduce the angle, maybe a future improvement for the game?
    intereristing statement about the CA tactic on FM interpretation, i thought it was mainly defensive
    Yes 1-on-1 striker vs gk chances in FM aren't really good chances. Trying to create other types of chances (especially the ones where you outplay the opponent by squaring inside the box; or diagonal passes to a striker who runs from the edge of the area to a position 1-2 meters to the right or left from the penalty kick spot and then shoots first time) is highly advised.

    If you get a 1-on-1 you need the player to come in from a certain angle and have no-one nearby. So you want either one-touch-shots or tap-ins, or you want more than enough time and space to trick the keeper into making the move first and stuff like that. Anything in-between and the odds are stacked against the attacker. I don't know if that is realistic, but that's quite frankly irrelevant. SI, when plumbing ME holes, has made sure that just cramming everyone in the centre and throughballing like crazy won't work - so it doesn't.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbDw4...1&feature=plcp

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFA4J...xHnwvCIMtJU%3D

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    This is about as good as it gets when playing against a weaker side, it shows how effective a balanced & patient attacking approach can be.

    From the start I reigned in the attacking instincts of my players, once we had the 3 goal lead did I slowly start to give them more freedom when in possession & I never felt the need to use the attack or overload mentality instructions whereas a year ago I would have started with an all out attack assault & ran the risk of coming unstuck early on.







    The one aspect that I have compromised on is width but there isn't a tactic out there that doesn't have some form of compromise & it's all about ensuring that your weaknesses are not alarming obvious & more to the point problematic when defending, the one saving grace in my style is that if things are getting too crowded in the middle I can easily push players out wide without drastically altering the overall shape of the team.

    Thinly veiled bragging
    Last edited by Barside; 14-04-2012 at 10:05.

  42. #442
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    Yep, that's common logic pretty much. It's important to not give the smaller sides any encouragment. If you come out guns blazing, missing shots everywhere and letting the opponent know there are opportunities to break the chances are your players will get nervous when they don't score and the opposition can grow in confidence. If you deny them the ball and patiently work to find a good opening it demoralizes them.

    I don't think you necessarily have to fully compromise, I like to make sure that my tactics enable crossing opportunities, shooting opportunities, chances to break while still being built around possession build-up. You need to be able to shift the focus though.

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    ""Not everyone, but those who struggle most are usually those with the least tactical knowledge, even if they think different.""

    I have to say I find comments like this do get my goat a bit. I have managed and played for 25 years and as a Manager at both Youth and Adult levels have won Cups and League Championships and yet I am at present struggling with the new patch in FM. First two patches were fine and in fact my first season and a half of the new patch was ok but the wheels have now fallen off and it is very frustrating. In this incarnation tactics (mine at least) seem to fall apart after a very successful 10 games or so and yet in FM for years I have never had any major issues with building a good tactic or two. So I apparently according to some who post on here tactically inept.

    Maybe it's because I play the game as a Sunday League Footballer in which your players take 25 years to become motivated to play for you but maybe it's also because quite honestly in FM you cannot 100% replicate real life football. It's already been admitted that defensive tracking back doesn't work too well and your wingers have never heard of helping out your fullbacks, and I have Adebayor up top who IRL wouldn't scuff his 5 chances a game feebly wide.

    IRL I play a 4-4-2 and a 4-5-1 very successfully but you cannot as far as I can see replicate that in this years FM because IRL players do close down, do mark properly from time to time and cross the ball with a reasonable success rate and big strong forwards can hold the ball up as instructed. And one defeat after a good run of wins doesn't always send your players running in tears to a phsycologist.

    I am not a master FM tactitian and can certainly do better and understand the ME better but at the same time some people need to acknowledge that there are quite a few serious issues in the game that need addressing before you can seriously claim that FM is realistic and not just fob off people who are struggling as "those with the least tactical knowledge."

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    Well, I've played Football Managers and Championship Managers since the 90s and beyond what the eternal optimists claim, the AI always scores more goals per shots on goal and probably always will. Through the years it has been pretty much the same for me no matter the tactics; I need, on average, 3 shots on goal to score and the AI needs 2. Individual games have differences, but that's how it evens out for me in the long run.

  45. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rouge77 View Post
    Well, I've played Football Managers and Championship Managers since the 90s and beyond what the eternal optimists claim, the AI always scores more goals per shots on goal and probably always will. Through the years it has been pretty much the same for me no matter the tactics; I need, on average, 3 shots on goal to score and the AI needs 2. Individual games have differences, but that's how it evens out for me in the long run.

    Did you even read the thread, or indeed look at the stats posted on the previous page. The OP actually has the best shots to goal in ratio in the league, and quite comfortably so. Its only againt him, because of the hole his approach that made them or clinical again him on the counter.

    Anything the AI can do, you can do better. The question you should be asking yourself is why are you a worse finisher than the AI.

  46. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sussex Hammer View Post
    ""Not everyone, but those who struggle most are usually those with the least tactical knowledge, even if they think different.""

    I have to say I find comments like this do get my goat a bit. I have managed and played for 25 years and as a Manager at both Youth and Adult levels have won Cups and League Championships and yet I am at present struggling with the new patch in FM. First two patches were fine and in fact my first season and a half of the new patch was ok but the wheels have now fallen off and it is very frustrating. In this incarnation tactics (mine at least) seem to fall apart after a very successful 10 games or so and yet in FM for years I have never had any major issues with building a good tactic or two. So I apparently according to some who post on here tactically inept.

    Maybe it's because I play the game as a Sunday League Footballer in which your players take 25 years to become motivated to play for you but maybe it's also because quite honestly in FM you cannot 100% replicate real life football. It's already been admitted that defensive tracking back doesn't work too well and your wingers have never heard of helping out your fullbacks, and I have Adebayor up top who IRL wouldn't scuff his 5 chances a game feebly wide.

    IRL I play a 4-4-2 and a 4-5-1 very successfully but you cannot as far as I can see replicate that in this years FM because IRL players do close down, do mark properly from time to time and cross the ball with a reasonable success rate and big strong forwards can hold the ball up as instructed. And one defeat after a good run of wins doesn't always send your players running in tears to a phsycologist.

    I am not a master FM tactitian and can certainly do better and understand the ME better but at the same time some people need to acknowledge that there are quite a few serious issues in the game that need addressing before you can seriously claim that FM is realistic and not just fob off people who are struggling as "those with the least tactical knowledge."
    Hence why he said, not everyone.

  47. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Did you even read the thread, or indeed look at the stats posted on the previous page. The OP actually has the best shots to goal in ratio in the league, and quite comfortably so. Its only againt him, because of the hole his approach that made them or clinical again him on the counter.

    Anything the AI can do, you can do better. The question you should be asking yourself is why are you a worse finisher than the AI.
    Oh, I've read most of the thread, but the claims about AI not being better are already well known for me from previous years. Tactics do influence on how many shots on goal the AI gets, but in the long run, on average, the AI does the same amount of goals per chance. So, yes, limiting chances influences how many goals you let in, but it doesn't change the rate on which the AI converts it's chances, which stays on the same level and that level is higher than which the players can achieve.

  48. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rouge77 View Post
    Oh, I've read most of the thread, but the claims about AI not being better are already well known for me from previous years. Tactics do influence on how many shots on goal the AI gets, but in the long run, on average, the AI does the same amount of goals per chance. So, yes, limiting chances influences how many goals you let in, but it doesn't change the rate on which the AI converts it's chances, which stays on the same level and that level is higher than which the players can achieve.
    The best AI team in my last save scores 1 goal every 6.88 shots.

    I score 1 every 5.47 shots.

    Even the OP had a scoring ratio that outstripped anything the AI did.

    Entirely possible, and actually relatively easy to be more clinical than the AI over the long run.

  49. #449
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    Shots on goal or shots overall? I guess those are shots overall. I'm talking about shots on goal, those which would go in without a goalkeeper saving them or a player blocking the shot.

  50. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rouge77 View Post
    Shots on goal or shots overall? I guess those are shots overall. I'm talking about shots on goal, those which would go in without a goalkeeper saving them or a player blocking the shot.
    He out does them on both (see http://community.sigames.com/showthr...=1#post7731641 and scroll down for the rest of the teams he's up against.

    His ratio for goals from shots on target is 0.43 goals per shot. No side gets better than that, and only one side gets above 0.4 (0.402).

    I'll have to load my save up to check mine, and ill post it later.

  51. #451
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    Lucky I decided to check my divisional stats yesterday.

    Last season my team managed a ratio of 0.358 goals per shot on target which was the 4th highest in the division, Bayern Munich managed the best ratio of 0.374.

    Most teams were between 0.3-0.33, 4 were lower than 0.3 & the last placed side in the division had a meagre 0.076 goals per shot on target.

    Edit: Seeing some interesting statistics for the current season, it's too early to tell as I'll need to complete this season & the next plus a third with me no longer managing in the division to get a meaningful sample of statistics but I might have stumbled across a pattern that is not supposed to exist.
    Last edited by Barside; 14-04-2012 at 22:12.

  52. #452
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    It's never necessarily been about how good the AI is finishing in the league, it was always the incredible AI conversation rate against me in games.

    I don't necessarily see myself conceding so much anymore but when I do it's usually the AI scoring about 1 in 2 of their shots on target but there's not anything I can do about that so I've just learnt to accept it now and ignore it.

  53. #453
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    AI teams had a lower than average goals to shots on target ratio when playing against me, the end of season figure came in at 0.243 goals per shot on target.

    My starting keeper is amazing & is brilliant at saving penalties which does help & having the German #1 as backup is an added bonus.

    Two examples of his fine work.

    Last edited by Barside; 14-04-2012 at 23:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    It's never necessarily been about how good the AI is finishing in the league, it was always the incredible AI conversation rate against me in games.

    I don't necessarily see myself conceding so much anymore but when I do it's usually the AI scoring about 1 in 2 of their shots on target but there's not anything I can do about that so I've just learnt to accept it now and ignore it.
    Did you actually look at all the stats of the games you've played, or are you just guessing that they score every 1 out of 2 shots on target? I've looked through all the stats for the games I've played this year (43 games) and the AI's numbers are 34 goals, 114 shots on target, and 377 shots. That comes out to 3.35 shots on target per goal, and 11.09 shots per goal. The stats for my team are 62 goals, 160 shots on target and 466 shots, which is 2.58 shots on target per goal, and 7.52 shots per goal. I'm playing a pretty standard 4-5-1, balanced/standard, no change in team instructions and only minor changes to player instructions.

    Many people have already mentioned this but I'll say it again since echoing is fun, but you have to make sure you're not just suffering from perception bias. I had a 3 game stretch in the league where i gave up 4 goals on 6 shots on targets, which is rather unfortunate, but then again I also had a 4 game stretch where I had 0 goals on 11 shot on targets. Average the two, and I gave up 4 on 17 which seem pretty good to me. Every team will have games where the other team pretty much makes every shot on target, but forgetting about the good times while remembering all the bad times is not the right thing to do

  55. #455
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    This season in league games I have conceded so far (minus penalty goals and own goals):

    22 Games:

    2 SOT: 1 goal
    3 SOT: 1 goal
    3 SOT: 1 goal
    4 SOT: 3 goals
    3 SOT: 1 goal

    So that's 15 SOT and 7 goals, so not quite 1 in 2 but almost there.
    Last edited by ArsenalFan7; 15-04-2012 at 00:41.

  56. #456
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    What about the other 17 games?

  57. #457
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    I thought we were only doing games in which I have conceded but I shall take a look at the rest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    I thought we were only doing games in which I have conceded but I shall take a look at the rest.
    You can only work out the AI's conversion ratio against by looking through all your games. You can then compare with your conversion ratio for in those games.

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    1 SOT: 0 goals
    3 SOT: 1 goal
    3 SOT: 0 goals
    0 SOT: 0 goals
    0 SOT: 0 goals
    0 SOT: 0 goals
    1 SOT: 0 goals
    1 SOT: 0 goals
    2 SOT: 0 goals
    1 SOT: 0 goals
    4 SOT: 0 goals (Scored a penalty)
    1 SOT: 0 goals
    4 SOT: 3 goals
    3 SOT: 1 goal
    1 SOT: 1 goal (Own goal)
    2 SOT: 0 goals
    2 SOT: 0 goals
    0 SOT: 0 goals
    3 SOT: 1 goal
    0 SOT: 0 goal
    0 SOT: 0 goal
    2 SOT: 1 goal

    34 SOT: 7 goals (I don't know if you minus that SOT for the penalty?)

    So 34/7 = a goal every 4.86 SOT

  60. #460
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    And from your previous stats, you score a goal every 2.33 shots on target. You are twice as efficient as the AI. Might not be as good in your current season, of course. However, I doubt it has dropped so much as to be worse than 1 in 4.86.

    You've provided a fantastic example of perception bias in this thread. Thanks for being open to be proven wrong and for taking the time to post all of your stats. It's been a very illuminating thread and one that should be a "must read" for anybody thinking the AI gets an unfair advantage.

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    My goals scored (minus OG's and penalties):

    14 SOT: 5 goals
    6 SOT: 3 goals
    3 SOT: 3 goals
    5 SOT: 1 goal
    6 SOT: 5 goals
    10 SOT: 3 goals
    4 SOT: 2 goals
    10 SOT: 0 goals
    11 SOT: 7 goals
    13 SOT: 8 goals
    5 SOT: 3 goals
    10 SOT: 3 goals
    10 SOT: 2 goals
    6 SOT: 3 goals
    5 SOT: 3 goals
    11 SOT: 3 goals
    10 SOT: 2 goals
    10 SOT: 2 goals
    11 SOT: 3 goals
    7 SOT: 1 goal
    8 SOT: 4 goals
    4 SOT: 1 goal

    179 SOT: 67 goals = a goal every 2.7 SOT

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    Awkward for me

  63. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    Awkward for me
    Not in the slightest. You've spent the time and effort to help make this thread massively instructional. I'd go as far to say that it is the most useful thread I've seen in General Discussion this year. Perhaps ever.

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    Well I'm glad this has been cleared up.

    Thank you and goodbye.

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    i have seen that odd liverpool formation before.. liverpool used it against me.
    holy smoke... this formation is immence with my fast wingers and striker O.O lowest rating 6.9 - keeper
    outfield 7.6.
    fantastic, i'll show you the match stats


    this doesnt close down free kicks at all in another match i tried it on.
    Last edited by scott MUFC; 15-04-2012 at 03:09.

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    After all this tactic discussion I feel that I need to tinker with my tactics now.

    How the hell do you put up a significant challenge against teams, when you're underdogs for every game of the season? And for the most part the players you have are quite poor compared to the rest of the league.

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    I think this thread shows that there might a need for a guide on how to create quality chances in varying circumstances (favourite vs underdog etc).

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    Aw man, I love these threads, as it was the exact sort of thing I'd whinge about when I was 11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocuous View Post
    Aw man, I love these threads, as it was the exact sort of thing I'd whinge about when I was 11.
    Thanks for that excellent insight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocuous View Post
    Aw man, I love these threads, as it was the exact sort of thing I'd whinge about when I was 11.
    I read through 460+ posts and then I get to this brilliant assertion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    Not going to go into detail but we all know this is the case, we see it all the time, the AI with barely any shots and scoring whereas we take 20 and don't score.

    Here's just one very recent example ...
    "Barcelona enjoyed 72% of the possession, making 24 shots at goal, and yet still conceded from Chelsea's only effort on target. "That's football," said Guardiola"

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    Yes, very good, alias?

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    Second alias I've seen since the match.

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    yes it does happen, but not as often as it does on FM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scott MUFC View Post
    yes it does happen, but not as often as it does on FM.
    But does it?

    In this example you are Barcelona and Barcelona produce similar match stats in real life every match, the only difference is that Barcelona in real life possibly win more games and I would put that down to those FM managers not being as effective as Pep is in choosing the tactic/getting the players to make the most of it.

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    Between the Wigan - Man U match a couple days ago and now the Chelsea - Barca match you would think FM would be praised as a very realistic football simulator.

    Quote Originally Posted by scott MUFC View Post
    yes it does happen, but not as often as it does on FM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles-the-victorious View Post
    Between the Wigan - Man U match a couple days ago and now the Chelsea - Barca match you would think FM would be praised as a very realistic football simulator.
    Calm down it was only 2 matches lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by aderow View Post
    Second alias I've seen since the match.
    They could be a little less obvious.

    Clearly made it after this thread was created and were waiting for a good example.

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    Between the Wigan - Man U match a couple days ago and now the Chelsea - Barca match you would think FM would be praised as a very realistic football simulator.
    But you're talking about one match from EPL and other from CL and diffrent teams while in FM you are playing one team and i bet that you will have at least 5-8 wigan -manu matches What's annoying for me is disproportion of lucky wins and draws, AI seems just have a lot more luck then human
    Last edited by sciegu; 20-04-2012 at 00:29.

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    yes that is the point, you get it more times then twice, just against you alone. let alone the other matches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sciegu View Post
    But you're talking about one match from EPL and other from CL and diffrent teams while in FM you are playing one team and i bet that you will have at least 5-8 wigan -manu matches What's annoying for me is disproportion of lucky wins and draws, AI seems just have a lot more luck then human
    Have you read the evidence in this thread?


    Simply put, the majority of people who complain about this issue either design or download tactics that ensure they generate lots of possession and shots. Guess what, if you achieve this in every match you play, every match you lose will seem statistically unfair. You can only lose matches when you dominate the stats.

    Most of these tactics rely on one player scoring lots of goals. If he is having a bad day, there is no second scoring option and the team begins to risk conceding as frustration grows.

  82. #482
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    Simply put, the majority of people who complain about this issue either design or download tactics that ensure they generate lots of possession and shots. Guess what, if you achieve this in every match you play, every match you lose will seem statistically unfair. You can only lose matches when you dominate the stats.

    Most of these tactics rely on one player scoring lots of goals. If he is having a bad day, there is no second scoring option and the team begins to risk conceding as frustration grows.
    Well im very happy with my tactic it generates very good results and quality chances and possesions is about 50/50 , i play 451/433 and three up front scored about 60 from 90 goals so i don't rely on one striker. I'm not complaining about finishing ratio i'm just saying that i don't have as much luck as AI have(90+ own goal, super long shot, gk mistake, late goal from corner or free kick, those things are reserved for AI)
    Last edited by sciegu; 20-04-2012 at 01:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sciegu View Post
    Well im very happy with my tactic it generates very good results and quality chances and possesions is about 50/50 , i play 451/433 and three up from scored about 60 from 90 goals so i don't rely on one striker. I'm not complaining about finishing ratio i'm just saying that i don't have as much luck as AI have(90+ own goal, super long shot, gk mistake, late goal from corner or free kick, those thing are reserved for AI)
    If you keep conceding late goals, the problem probably lies with loss of concentration in the defence, which can relate to temperament or tiredness. Do you do anything to see out tight games (i.e. sub off tired defensive players, stop being aggressive, reduce through balls, deepen the d-line to keep more players behind the ball, sub in an extra midfielder)? Further, are the defenders very young, which makes them prone to costly mistakes, no matter how good they are?

    I can guarantee the AI is not "luckier" than you. All you need to do is work out why you have the tendency to concede late goals and develop a strategy to prevent it.

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    One thing which i don't do is reducting through balls, i always thought that when switching to counter or defensive it can even help in launching quick attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sciegu View Post
    One thing which i don't do is reducting through balls, i always thought that when switching to counter or defensive it can even help in launching quick attack.
    It can, but it can also result in the loss of possession, which isn't what you are after when you are trying to hold onto a slender lead. The question you need to ask is when you should stop pushing for the game killer and start holding onto what you have.

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    using the tactic, i am still conceding to the regular silly stuff, corners, those random O.G.s bu it does force them to shoot from range. taken liverpool apart at anfield using it this time they went to attack after i scored and put another 5 past them when they pushed more men for a goal, looked quite good.

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    Did you mods see the Barcelona - Real madrid? did you see RM playing CA and Barcelona going offensive? did you notice that it was needed 1 of the best coaches in the world and 1 of the best teams with some of the best finishers in the world to be able to win in CA against barcelona? now go watch the whole season of barcelona and tell me how many small teams managed to do that against Barcelona. now go watch small teams doing it in FM. tell me how is FM12 realistic when any small team with 1-2 chances in CA always score.

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    To counter that how many teams do you see irl playing the same way as Barcelona or indeed regularly putting up the same sort of attacking statistics as them?

    In FM it is far too easy to equal & in many cases better real life, the imbalance in the ME is two-way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    To counter that how many teams do you see irl playing the same way as Barcelona or indeed regularly putting up the same sort of attacking statistics as them?

    In FM it is far too easy to equal & in many cases better real life, the imbalance in the ME is two-way.
    The day it becomes impossible to overperform in FM will be the day I will find something else to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    To counter that how many teams do you see irl playing the same way as Barcelona or indeed regularly putting up the same sort of attacking statistics as them?

    In FM it is far too easy to equal & in many cases better real life, the imbalance in the ME is two-way.
    two way? huh no. if you play with small teams you won't be able to do it easily. if you play with big teams your players will go ****** mode and if AI has good morale you will conceed goals no matter how much defensive you go. plus AI teams usually use 1 striker only and will take advantage of the 2 defenders bug. can i exploit it too? sure bit i don't like winning by exploiting. does AI knows it is exploiting? NO, wwas anything done to prevent it? NO. bias or not the AI has advantage unless we also exploit it

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    Did you mods see the Barcelona - Real madrid? did you see RM playing CA and Barcelona going offensive? did you notice that it was needed 1 of the best coaches in the world and 1 of the best teams with some of the best finishers in the world to be able to win in CA against barcelona? now go watch the whole season of barcelona and tell me how many small teams managed to do that against Barcelona. now go watch small teams doing it in FM. tell me how is FM12 realistic when any small team with 1-2 chances in CA always score.
    Well if you look at the current La Liga table we can see from 34 matches Barcelona have W25, D6 & L3.

    Given that only two of those matches were against Real its fair to say other teams have got results against them as well.

    In fact the stats tell us that Barcelona drop points in 26% of league games or one out of four on average. The question is how does that stat compare for those users that feel they have a problem?

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    two way? huh no. if you play with small teams you won't be able to do it easily. if you play with big teams your players will go ****** mode and if AI has good morale you will conceed goals no matter how much defensive you go. plus AI teams usually use 1 striker only and will take advantage of the 2 defenders bug. can i exploit it too? sure bit i don't like winning by exploiting. does AI knows it is exploiting? NO, wwas anything done to prevent it? NO. bias or not the AI has advantage unless we also exploit it
    I guess only conceding 15 leagues goals in my last season didn't happen or indeed the last 4 seasons where my team conceded less than a goal a game.

    Teams concede goals because they are not as good as their manager thinks they are & I thought this thread went some way to disproving the misconception of an uber-efficient AI.

    As for this two defender bug I've never heard of it & I spend a lot of time posting in the bugs forum, maybe you should post your debut comment in the bugs forum & supply a few match pkm's.
    Last edited by Barside; 22-04-2012 at 20:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    I guess only conceding 15 leagues goals in my last season didn't happen or indeed the last 4 seasons where my team conceded less than a goal a game.

    Teams concede goals because they are not as good as their manager thinks they are & I thought this thread went some way to disproving the misconception of an uber-efficient AI.

    As for this two defender bug I've never heard of it & I spend a lot of time posting in the bugs forum, maybe you should post your debut comment in the bugs forum & supply a few match pkm's.
    The thread did disprove it, some people just choose to ignore it.

    I repeatedly end up scoring the most goals and conceding the least. My shots to goals and shots on targets to goals were the best of any team in the top 5 leagues, even though i could say there were on paper 4-5 side who were better. Last season i conceded 16 goals on the league.

    Also not heard of this bug, or seen it, but if its there it should be reported.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    I guess only conceding 15 leagues goals in my last season didn't happen or indeed the last 4 seasons where my team conceded less than a goal a game.

    Teams concede goals because they are not as good as their manager thinks they are & I thought this thread went some way to disproving the misconception of an uber-efficient AI.

    As for this two defender bug I've never heard of it & I spend a lot of time posting in the bugs forum, maybe you should post your debut comment in the bugs forum & supply a few match pkm's.
    there is no need to post PKM, wwfan (MODERATOR) already admitted there is a bug and that post is in this thread, if you don't believe then just start reading on page 4.
    i never said hat AI scored in all CA, what ppl are complaining about is matches where our strikers go ****** mode, we dominate the whole game as in prrevious macthes and then AI has 1 chance in a 1vs1 and they score. now go try having your strikers score all 1v1 in a match...ffs i'm tired of watching benzema, higuain, ronaldo wasting 3 or 4 1vs1 because they either think it's cool to shoot straight at keeper all send the ball to the clouds. do they go dumb mode on all games? no. do i score lots of goals? yes more then 100 goals each season and average of 3+ goals each game including barcelona and conceed around 10 goals. however without any explanation they will be morons on a specific games . none of the strikers will score and might have luck if score from corner or long shot and go defensive and still conceed goal because apparently 2 DCs and 2 DMs can't take care of 1 striker and so either end up drawing or loosing which guess what, screws morale for a couple of games. i even tried reload those games with different tactics, especially more defensive approach and guess what, i created less chances, still missed a lot and the quality of the play was the same and the AI miraculous goal still happened and if i was lucky i would be able to draw. was it batter then loosing? yes. does it make me happy? nop just feels like i was never supposed to win. can i win if i reload many times? yes, can i kep reloading and win again with the same tactic that jsut made me win? hardly
    Last edited by deathspawn666; 22-04-2012 at 21:48.

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    The thread title gets me every time My first thought is: The AI is better at finishing off chances? Really?

    Not my experience at all.

    These threads are silly without at least rudimentary analysis and testing. The thread title should be: 'IS the AI better at finishing off chances?'.

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    @deathspawn

    Go through the stats for all your matches (not just where the AI scored) & overall team stats for all clubs in your division, I am confident that you will find the figures will not back up your opinion of this efficient AI goal scoring machine when presented with a 1v1 chance.

    Also watch a selection of full matches as the highlights system can give you a false sense of how efficient teams are in front of goal, unless your tactic is mess of conflicting instructions & roles the ME will not consistently produce the events that you claim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    two way? huh no. if you play with small teams you won't be able to do it easily. if you play with big teams your players will go ****** mode and if AI has good morale you will conceed goals no matter how much defensive you go. plus AI teams usually use 1 striker only and will take advantage of the 2 defenders bug. can i exploit it too? sure bit i don't like winning by exploiting. does AI knows it is exploiting? NO, wwas anything done to prevent it? NO. bias or not the AI has advantage unless we also exploit it
    But what you're talking about isn't an AI-specific advantage. You're describing the complacency/pressure system and that affects both the AI and player. I agree that the effects of complacency are too predictable and over-the-top, it is silly how playing Barnsley in the Carling Cup is often a greater challenge than playing Barcelona in the Champions League... but this isn't an issue of the AI giving itself special advantages. The effect that makes Barnsley so challenging is often what makes Barcelona and Real occasionally seem so easy... due to their extremely high reputation and constant involvement in high-pressure situations, their players are prone to going into ****** mode too!

    Ideally, I would like to see less results dictated by the extremes of pressure and complacency, but this is an entirely separate issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    i never said hat AI scored in all CA, what ppl are complaining about is matches where our strikers go ****** mode, we dominate the whole game as in prrevious macthes and then AI has 1 chance in a 1vs1 and they score. now go try having your strikers score all 1v1 in a match...ffs i'm tired of watching benzema, higuain, ronaldo wasting 3 or 4 1vs1 because they either think it's cool to shoot straight at keeper all send the ball to the clouds. do they go dumb mode on all games? no. do i score lots of goals? yes more then 100 goals each season and average of 3+ goals each game including barcelona and conceed around 10 goals. however without any explanation they will be morons on a specific games . none of the strikers will score and might have luck if score from corner or long shot and go defensive and still conceed goal because apparently 2 DCs and 2 DMs can't take care of 1 striker and so either end up drawing or loosing which guess what, screws morale for a couple of games. i even tried reload those games with different tactics, especially more defensive approach and guess what, i created less chances, still missed a lot and the quality of the play was the same and the AI miraculous goal still happened and if i was lucky i would be able to draw. was it batter then loosing? yes. does it make me happy? nop just feels like i was never supposed to win. can i win if i reload many times? yes, can i kep reloading and win again with the same tactic that jsut made me win? hardly
    You have achieved end-of-season statistics that outstrip anything ever achieved in reality, scoring more per game and conceding less per game than Barca and Real have managed even this season and you are complaining that the AI scoring is unrealistic!!!! I'd suggest you get your head out of the clouds and start taking the odd loss on the chin.

    If you have designed a tactic and developed a team that guarantees you will dominate every match statistically, the ONLY WAY YOU WILL EVER LOSE is when your forwards have an off day and the AI catches you on the counter. That's life. Get over it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    You have achieved end-of-season statistics that outstrip anything ever achieved in reality, scoring more per game and conceding less per game than Barca and Real have managed even this season and you are complaining that the AI scoring is unrealistic!!!!
    oh really? atm RM has 109 goals and 30 conceeded. as far as i can tell the difference is i conceeded less and the spanish league aint over so they can score more and conceed more. and why you keep talking about season statistics when i'm talking about specific matches? just because average goal ratio is fine doesn't mean the whole matches were fine. if i scored 20 goals in a match and still have 100 overall does that mean the match was fine? so if i scored 20 of those as own goals how is that my tactic fault?


    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    if you have designed a tactic and developed a team that guarantees you will dominate every match statistically, the ONLY WAY YOU WILL EVER LOSE is when your forwards have an off day and the AI catches you on the counter. That's life. Get over it.
    also you keep talking about numbers and not how the goals happen? you admitted that there was the 2DCs bug, so if i exploit it my tactic will start produce unreal stats but ME has to keep it real so FM will just screw me over?
    i can understand having 1-2 strikers on dumb mode but not 4 or 5. is it realistic to have 4-5 world class strikers? no. is it my fault? no. should i be punished for it? no.
    do i want game to be realistic yes? do i want to loose ONLY due to RANDOM stuff that makes sure it stays realistic? sorry but no. is my tactic invincible? no. does it exploit ME? the hell i know, i dunno ME code and weaknesses unless i read all forum threads. also keep in mind ppl have different views on football. i for example thought the DCs problem was tactil, tried many stuff, same results so unless i came here i would never know it is a bug. how do you think i felt that whole time?
    if i remember correctly there is also a flaw, told us by moderators, where AM on wings won't go back to help MCs even if they were told to, that is a ME flaw, how do you expect ppl that don't come here know it was ME problem and not bug? that pretty much renders some winger formation useless.
    i'm tired of this random game. don't bother answering it unless someone knows how to delete an account, would appreciate if someone told me how to
    Last edited by deathspawn666; 23-04-2012 at 02:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    oh really? atm RM has 109 goals and 30 conceeded. as far as i can tell the difference is i conceeded less and the spanish league aint over so they can score more and conceed more.
    Let's be specific. Are you scoring 3+ a game or averaging 3 a game? Yes, Real can and probably will average just over three goals per game, but they've conceded almost a goal a game, not 1 in 4. You seem to want to score 3+ a game and concede none. That just isn't going to happen, no matter how good your tactic and players.


    and why you keep talking about season statistics when i'm talking about specific matches? just because average goal ratio is fine doesn't mean the whole matches were fine. if i scored 20 goals in a match and still have 100 overall does that mean the match was fine? so if i scored 20 of those as own goals how is that my tactic fault?
    Because ***** happens in football. The best team doesn't always win and goals conceded can be totally against the run of play and extremely comical. The ME might have some minor bugs that cost you a goal or two, but stupidity, mistakes and randomness afflict every football match, even those played by world class footballers.


    also you keep talking about numbers and not how the goals happen? you admitted that there was the 2DCs bug, so if i exploit it my tactic will start produce unreal stats but ME has to keep it real so FM will just screw me over?
    That's not what happens. You lose because you lose. The ME does not decide you will lose. It just processes data. It is perfectly possible to stop these losses from happening if you know how to change things around when the team is struggling to score. Do you sit and watch the match with your head in your hands, or do you implement Plan B or Plan C?


    i can understand having 1-2 strikers on dumb mode but not 4 or 5. is it realistic to have 4-5 world class strikers? no. is it my fault? no. should i be punished for it? no.
    I agree. It is completely unrealistic for any team to have 5 world class strikers in its squad.


    do i want game to be realistic yes? do i want to loose ONLY due to RANDOM stuff that makes sure it stays realistic? sorry but no. is my tactic invincible? no. does it exploit ME? the hell i know, i dunno ME code and weaknesses unless i read all forum threads. also keep in mind ppl have different views on football. i for example thought the DCs problem was tactil, tried many stuff, same results so unless i came here i would never know it is a bug. how do you think i felt that whole time?
    Random stuff happens in football all the time. You are never going to eliminate all randomness from FM, no matter what tactic you try, because if you do, then the match simulation will be worth absolutely nothing. You might concede some goals from bugs, but all of them? I doubt it. I'm also 100% sure that you score more through bugs than you concede.


    if i remember correctly there is also a flaw, told us by moderators, where AM on wings won't go back to help MCs even if they were told to, that is a ME flaw, how do you expect ppl that don't come here know it was ME problem and not bug? that pretty much renders some winger formation useless.
    i'm tired of this random game. don't bother answering it unless someone knows how to delete an account, would appreciate if someone told me how to
    Computer games always have bugs. I suggest you stop playing everything if bugs annoy you so much. Not good for the blood pressure. In fact, it is probably best you don't even turn on a computer.

    If you wish, I will permanently ban your account.

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