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Thread: Why is the AI so much better at finishing?

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    and why is there no answer for strikers missing so many 1vs1 against small teams? all i see is ppl saying go defensive, hell i even tried 4-2-1-2-1 (2DMS and 1 MC) with control mentality and guess what still conceed in a freaking CA because apparently 2 DCs can't mark 1 lonely striker that is between them 2 and 1 meter away from them. also why is every AI crossing in CA so perfect that always goes near the AI striker? i'm yet to see 1 crossing from CA go out,meanwhile dimaria,ozil,douglas costa,william,gaitan keep doing it...i'm starting to abandon wingers tactics, they all made stupid crossing that either go out or straight into keeper
    Small teams will sit back and try to kill space deep on the pitch. How would you tactically go about overcoming that type of approach? Think holistically, rather than trying to work out what individual plays/formations work better in the ME.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candre168 View Post
    If I have 20 shots, and they're all crap, yet the opponent has one good shot and scores, I have no complaints.

    My complaints come when I have 5 CCC and the opponent has 1 or even 0 yet wins 2-0.

    I really can't recall a game in which the AI had more CCC's than me, but I won the game/got a point, even when managing lesser sides.

    I remember last year (or two years ago), someone from SI acknowledging that because it is easier to for the User to generate more CCC's, the ratio of CCC's to shots had been toned down. I don't know if this is still the case, but it would not surprise me.
    See post 293. CCCs are definitely less liberal than they used to be, but they are still awarded too often. The only thing that has changed with regard to CCCs is a slow movement towards making them less liberal. Has nothing to do with how many users might generate or how often they should be scored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    1: I just told you that the tactic knowledge of the team DOES NOT GO DOWN when you change individual player instructions. It makes no difference to tactical knowledge if you play an AMR as Defensive Forward/Support one week, then as Winger/Attack the next. You also need to take on board that match prep hits are really minimal. It is far better to increase you passing length to deal with a very wet pitch and take the minor hit than it would be not making the change.

    2: 15 is high aggression. A defender with that level of aggression will pick up yellows, no matter what.

    3: Flair is a player attribute. It is under mental attributes. Some level of CF is useful, even vital, for defenders. Doesn't have to be high, but shouldn't be set to the absolute minimum.
    1: hum i thought match prep had huge impact, thanks

    2: yes it's high but i'm using him as FB and i have players with same aggression and they behave better after having 1 yellow card. also i'm currently unable to lower his agresion, it went down 1 point when i cut his salary first time but after that it just won't go down.

    3: hum i think i mistaken (in transalation) the atributte you were talking about, my bad on that

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    2: yes it's high but i'm using him as FB and i have players with same aggression and they behave better after having 1 yellow card. also i'm currently unable to lower his agresion, it went down 1 point when i cut his salary first time but after that it just won't go down.
    It will go down if you warn/fine him for getting sent off. Constant fines for yellows will just **** him off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    It will go down if you warn/fine him for getting sent off. Constant fines for yellows will just **** him off.
    i'm only fining him when he's sent off but stat is still stuck on 15, is there any ppm that could help lower it or at least counter that stat? or any advice on training schudle for Ramos to make it lower? i'm using some that i downloaded from web and they were fine for other teams and players

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    i'm only fining him when he's sent off but stat is still stuck on 15, is there any ppm that could help lower it or at least counter that stat?
    Straight reds or two yellows? In your previous post, you said you were fining him for yellow cards. Does not dive into tackles will help, but it won't prevent it. He's always going to be slightly dirty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    Straight reds or two yellows? In your previous post, you said you were fining him for yellow cards. Does not dive into tackles will help, but it won't prevent it. He's always going to be slightly dirty.
    yeah i didn't explain very well because i was nerd raging XD. at first he got 2-3 reds and now he is getting 2 yellow cards in same game.when the red cards came out i fined him and the 1st time i did it it lowered agression 1 point but then it got stuck on 15, i'm also fining him when he gets 2 yellows . hum i'll try that PPM but he seems to get the cards because he is running with AI player and suddenly pushes or pulls the players
    Last edited by deathspawn666; 10-04-2012 at 01:59.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    yeah i didn't explain very well because i was nerd raging XD. at first he got 2-3 reds and now he is getting 2 yellow cards in same game.when the red cards came out i fined him and the 1st time i did it it lowered agression 1 point but then it got stuck on 15, i'm also fining him when he gets 2 yellows . hum i'll try that PPM but he seems to get the cards because he is running with AI player and suddenly pushes or pulls the players
    Sounds like a stretched defence issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    yeah i didn't explain very well because i was nerd raging XD. at first he got 2-3 reds and now he is getting 2 yellow cards in same game.when the red cards came out i fined him and the 1st time i did it it lowered agression 1 point but then it got stuck on 15, i'm also fining him when he gets 2 yellows . hum i'll try that PPM but he seems to get the cards because he is running with AI player and suddenly pushes or pulls the players
    I would attribute wha you are describing as a combination of the aggression and his poor decision stat. Having only an 11 for decisions and high aggression he is going to attempt tackles when he's not in a good position to do so, leading to yellow cards. You also have to consider the dirtiness attribute, which is hidden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathspawn666 View Post
    yeah i didn't explain very well because i was nerd raging XD. at first he got 2-3 reds and now he is getting 2 yellow cards in same game.when the red cards came out i fined him and the 1st time i did it it lowered agression 1 point but then it got stuck on 15, i'm also fining him when he gets 2 yellows . hum i'll try that PPM but he seems to get the cards because he is running with AI player and suddenly pushes or pulls the players
    Ramos very likely has high Temperament and Dirtiness as well as low Sportsmanship attributes (or is low Dirtiness/Temperament = bad now?). Aggression has nothing to do with red cards, so the more of it the better. I don't know why this attribute drops when you fine a player for violence, which is caused by loss of temper. Maybe the lost Aggression point is transfered to Temperament?

  11. #311
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    I think I'm just massively unlucky or a tactical disaster at times.

    Relegation candidates in horrific morale get one shot on target (from a corner) and it goes in. My players are motivated, playing with confidence and yet they still can't convert chances, so frustrating.

    I think I'll just accept these as pure luck from now on, cbf anymore.



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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    Ramos very likely has high Temperament and Dirtiness as well as low Sportsmanship attributes (or is low Dirtiness/Temperament = bad now?). Aggression has nothing to do with red cards, so the more of it the better. I don't know why this attribute drops when you fine a player for violence, which is caused by loss of temper. Maybe the lost Aggression point is transfered to Temperament?
    I think high aggression as well as dirtiness/sportsmanship together can cause this. I know what your saying about aggression but I have always presumed that if if a player was dirty, unsporting and has high aggression he will be a bit of a nutter. However if a player is not dirty and has good sportmanship attribute then aggression is a positive. Other things such as decisions, tackling etc also play their part IMO.

  13. #313
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    and i concede another 2 goals in a match, one of which was some buggy own goal, from a cross.
    every cross of mine is magically caught or cleared,

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott MUFC View Post
    and i concede another 2 goals in a match, one of which was some buggy own goal, from a cross.
    every cross of mine is magically caught or cleared,
    No offence mate but you do come out with some rather random comments and then, in other threads, post screenshots were you haven't been beaten for a season and a half. Why don't you upload PKM's so people can see all these random events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marty78 View Post
    I think high aggression as well as dirtiness/sportsmanship together can cause this. I know what your saying about aggression but I have always presumed that if if a player was dirty, unsporting and has high aggression he will be a bit of a nutter. However if a player is not dirty and has good sportmanship attribute then aggression is a positive. Other things such as decisions, tackling etc also play their part IMO.
    Yes to be very thorough here, what determines the degree to which a player will risk his own health or a yellow card in order to win possession of the ball, and success rate in doing so, are these attributes:

    Acceleration, Pace, Agility, Work Rate, Team Work, Determination, Aggression, Bravery, Decisions and Tackling
    + (attacking) mentality, closing down and tackling instructions
    + morale and motivation

    What determines a player's ability to avoid unnecessary yellow and red cards, including violent "tackles" are the following:

    Decisions, Temperament, Sportsmanship, Dirtiness
    + (attacking) mentality, tackling instructions
    + morale and motivation

    To be fair, high Aggression makes tackles more likely, which is necessary to commit a foul in the first place. However, a player who constantly gets himself booked because he can't contain himself does not have an aggression problem - that is a matter of Temperament and Dirtiness. Ramos is that kind of player so if that is a problem, sell him.

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    well yea because i won 3-2.
    no reason for a cross to be whiped in and to bouce off a defender while the keeper stands there, none.
    wouldn't the red cards also be caused by fluidity? tracking back and making late tackles etc.

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    I tell you what I am sick unto death of...its the damn AI putting in a cross and having their FW/Winger come in and do the little slide with a toe touch putting the ball past my keeper. In my first 2 league games of my new season I've giving up 4 goals ALL by this same damn sequence. 4 shots on target all 4 goals all 4 sliding toe touch goals. Enough All Ready!

  18. #318
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    yea that happens to me.
    my team did it in the previous season, but now the keeper or defenders get to them.

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    I did go on to win this tie in extra time but IDK, just doesn't feel realistic.




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    It seems like bias at times.

    Of course it probably isn't but I destroyed them and yet they still go onto get that fluky goal with just 2 shots on target all game.

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    Very funny run of events, I suppose this is a bit different as their goal comes from a penalty (felt a bit scripted that part.. a sending off and then a magical penalty, ok then!) but it sure is lucky for the AI again.

    My goal was from a free kick as well




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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    It seems like bias at times.

    Of course it probably isn't but I destroyed them and yet they still go onto get that fluky goal with just 2 shots on target all game.
    looking at that screenshot, the quality of their one chance seems better than all of yours.

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    Well what immediately jumps out at me from those stats is how you had 21 shots against Malaga, but only 2 clear cut chances. Sounds like your tactic is giving you loads of shots but very few good chances.

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    What the hell can I do though if I'm losing out because of the AI's ability to take one chance all game that I can't stop?

    There's tactics and there's there is this, IDK how you stop that one chance, it's hard to prevent them shooting all game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    What the hell can I do though if I'm losing out because of the AI's ability to take one chance all game that I can't stop?

    There's tactics and there's there is this, IDK how you stop that one chance, it's hard to prevent them shooting all game.
    Your problem is that you aren't making good chances and scoring goals, you are not killing games off so opposition teams will keep going and have the chance to nick a goal back.

    You need to make your tactic better so you make better chances so you will score more.

    And remember this is football, luck does play a part. You can be the best team in the world and have an off day. You can do lots to reduce the chance of it, but you can never prevent bad teams from scoring against you occasionally.

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    Since using the tactic:

    3-0 win vs Celta (8 CCC's)
    3-0 win vs Espanyol (2 CCC's)
    1-0 win vs PSG (3 CCC's)
    3-0 win vs Valencia (6 CCC's)
    3-0 win vs At.Madrid (4 CCC's)
    7-0 win vs Sevilla (5 CCC's)
    4-0 win vs Getafe (4 CCC's)
    2-1 win vs PSG (6 CCC's)
    1-1 draw vs Malaga (2 CCC's)

    9 games = 40 CCC's

    I am using the totalvoetball tactic and for the most part it is working extremely well and the finishing has been good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    Since using the tactic:

    3-0 win vs Celta (8 CCC's)
    3-0 win vs Espanyol (2 CCC's)
    1-0 win vs PSG (3 CCC's)
    3-0 win vs Valencia (6 CCC's)
    3-0 win vs At.Madrid (4 CCC's)
    7-0 win vs Sevilla (5 CCC's)
    4-0 win vs Getafe (4 CCC's)
    2-1 win vs PSG (6 CCC's)
    1-1 draw vs Malaga (2 CCC's)

    9 games = 40 CCC's

    I am using the totalvoetball tactic and for the most part it is working extremely well and the finishing has been good.
    So you have generally been doing really well, but one draw and suddenly its an AI conspiracy against you? Your team was unlucky, and Malaga got lucky. It happens.

    Do you have a link to the thread with the totalvoetball tactic in it?

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    Edit: Just seen the post with your recent results, you have nothing to moan about.

    Also it's been mentioned time & time again but just to reiterate, ignore the CCC stat, it's flawed.
    Last edited by Barside; 10-04-2012 at 15:38.

  29. #329
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    My tactic is based upon the totalvoetball tactic found in the Tactical Theorems 10 guide.

    http://www.fm-britain.co.uk/tactics-...l-theorems-10/

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    Since using the tactic:

    3-0 win vs Celta (8 CCC's)
    3-0 win vs Espanyol (2 CCC's)
    1-0 win vs PSG (3 CCC's)
    3-0 win vs Valencia (6 CCC's)
    3-0 win vs At.Madrid (4 CCC's)
    7-0 win vs Sevilla (5 CCC's)
    4-0 win vs Getafe (4 CCC's)
    2-1 win vs PSG (6 CCC's)
    1-1 draw vs Malaga (2 CCC's)

    9 games = 40 CCC's

    I am using the totalvoetball tactic and for the most part it is working extremely well and the finishing has been good.
    So you have scored 27 goals for 40 clear chances created and conceded 2 goals in 9 games. What is the issue then? Also against Malaga why was their player able to play a ball into 20 yards of space leading to your defender to panic and make a professional foul indicating he stopped a goalscoring opportunity and therefore conceding a penalty and seeing red?
    Last edited by marty78; 10-04-2012 at 15:41.

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    Wasn't wwfan involved in writing that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    My tactic is based upon the totalvoetball tactic found in the Tactical Theorems 10 guide.

    http://www.fm-britain.co.uk/tactics-...l-theorems-10/
    Not too dissimilar to one I'm using at the moment, what strategy do you use? Are you playing with a back 4 or with an actual sweeper? Very good attacking tactic, but if it's like the one I'm playing with vulnerable to fast counter attacks at times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cemendur88 View Post
    Not too dissimilar to one I'm using at the moment, what strategy do you use? Are you playing with a back 4 or with an actual sweeper? Very good attacking tactic, but if it's like the one I'm playing with vulnerable to fast counter attacks at times.
    No actual sweeper as of yet, no one currently is accomplished in the position yet but I shall use a libero soon.

    I always start with a controlling strategy but towards the later part of that game as you would I usually go into a more defensive approach to try and prevent the opponent sneaking in a late goal.

    I would agree it is susceptible to the counter attack and this led to the two goals in the games I mention.

  34. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by marty78 View Post
    So you have scored 27 goals for 40 clear chances created and conceded 2 goals in 9 games. What is the issue then? Also against Malaga why was their player able to play a ball into 20 yards of space leading to your defender to panic and make a professional foul indicating he stopped a goalscoring opportunity and therefore conceding a penalty and seeing red?
    It was a through ball played from the midfield, the striker got ahead of Zouma who then made a idiotic decision to wipe him down. I guess he felt taking him down in the late stages would be better than for him to get a clear cut chance and attempt to score.

    The issue here is that it is not realistic, it is not common for an opponent to get a goal from so few chances on target, especially when they're being battered. I don't see just how the fact that I've been doing well means this is completely acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    No actual sweeper as of yet, no one currently is accomplished in the position yet but I shall use a libero soon.

    I always start with a controlling strategy but towards the later part of that game as you would I usually go into a more defensive approach to try and prevent the opponent sneaking in a late goal.

    I would agree it is susceptible to the counter attack and this led to the two goals in the games I mention.
    Do you have one of your CDs set to Cover then? I personally never change my strategy late one if things are going well, don't let up the pressure on my opponents as doing so just invites them to have a late push for a goal. My tactic uses Attacking so is even more focused on getting the ball upfield than yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    It was a through ball played from the midfield, the striker got ahead of Zouma who then made a idiotic decision to wipe him down. I guess he felt taking him down in the late stages would be better than for him to get a clear cut chance and attempt to score.

    The issue here is that it is not realistic, it is not common for an opponent to get a goal from so few chances on target, especially when they're being battered. I don't see just how the fact that I've been doing well means this is completely acceptable.
    Yes it is quite rare, and it has happened rarely to you, but it does happen in real life. It happens, sometimes you draw games you dominate othertimes you'll win a game you've struggled in. Nothing is certain or guaranteed.

  36. #336
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    No both set to defend, I only use cover if the other defender is able to be played as a stopper, that way they compliment each other more.

    I don't necessarily go defensive every game, usually I'll just go to a more standard approach in the final moments but most of the time if I'm clearly in the lead I'll leave things as they are.

    I don't really like starting in an attacking strategy as i feel too vulnerable to conceding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    No both set to defend, I only use cover if the other defender is able to be played as a stopper, that way they compliment each other more.

    I don't necessarily go defensive every game, usually I'll just go to a more standard approach in the final moments but most of the time if I'm clearly in the lead I'll leave things as they are.

    I don't really like starting in an attacking strategy as i feel too vulnerable to conceding.
    Setting one of your CDs to cover can help to deal with counter attacks as he will be deeper and better able to cover the back line. My tactic is very attacking and scores fairly easily so I don't mind conceding the odd goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    The issue here is that it is not realistic, it is not common for an opponent to get a goal from so few chances on target, especially when they're being battered. I don't see just how the fact that I've been doing well means this is completely acceptable.
    How is it unrealistic?

    The striker in your game managed to catch a break in your defensive line & was then aided when your defender cut him down, this can happen at any time to any team.
    Last edited by Barside; 10-04-2012 at 16:17.

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    I thought that a cover/defend partnership didn't complement well but I'll give it a shot, cheers.

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    It just happens, a couple of days ago Newcastle scored with pretty much their first shot on target and Swansea went on to dominate the entire game and Newcastle even got a second goal on the break.

    It's one draw in 8 games.. it will happen, it's football, if you set out your teams to defend you will also have games where you score from one or two shots target while the AI can't break you down.
    Last edited by Coentrao; 10-04-2012 at 16:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    I thought that a cover/defend partnership didn't complement well but I'll give it a shot, cheers.
    Used it for about seven seasons on an Athletic Bilbao save, certainly helps provide a bit of extra defensive strength to the attacking play I favour.

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    I can see from reading 5 posts that Speakie's just created a mass GD war between the fanboys, try-hards, haterz, the furious and chilled tribes and the 'itz ure tacticz' clan, brilliant!

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    Until you are up 3-0 no one is being battered. Shots don't demoralize the opposition, runs and dribbles don't demoralize the opposition. Being scored on repeatedly, yeah, thatll demoralize them right quick. So if you lose 1-0 defence wasn't the problem! You need to score to win ANY game, and most games you should aim to score 2 or 3 before setting up shop or thinking the game is in the bag.


    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    It was a through ball played from the midfield, the striker got ahead of Zouma who then made a idiotic decision to wipe him down. I guess he felt taking him down in the late stages would be better than for him to get a clear cut chance and attempt to score.

    The issue here is that it is not realistic, it is not common for an opponent to get a goal from so few chances on target, especially when they're being battered. I don't see just how the fact that I've been doing well means this is completely acceptable.

  44. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Wasn't wwfan involved in writing that?
    Co-author with Millie IIRC

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    Quote Originally Posted by marty78 View Post
    Lets say for example that you are a newly promoted team in the EPL and most opposition will see you as cannon fodder but that is often not the case and the reason many people over achieve in the first season after promotion. The next year after finishing, lets say, seventh teams are aware that you are a side capable of punishing them if they all out attack you. This means they will be more conservative and keep more men behind the ball.
    Does the game really do this? Is it that dynamic? I've not really seen much evidence of this.

  46. #346
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    I'm fairly certain it is one of the core mechanics behind AI tactics & it's roots are in the reputation system.

    When AI managed teams get promoted it doesn't show up as much as AI managers who are expected to be cannon fodder make all their decisions on that basis but a Human manager can demonstrate much greater ambition which leads to the over-achievement marty78 mentions.

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    The AI will use match strategies from the TC and the starting strategy will normally depend on the match odds that are generated from reputation, so yes it's dynamic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangeboy View Post
    Does the game really do this? Is it that dynamic? I've not really seen much evidence of this.
    The AI bases their tactical strategy on Reputation and some other things, like form. If they are underdogs they will play more defensively. Counter-attack strategies employed by the AI are generally better than the attacking strategies imo.

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    So, for people who defend this, is it ok if I get 20-25 chances almost per game?

    Does that ever happen in real life, per game?

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    Liverpool & Man City consistently create 20+ scoring chances, I'd dare say there are plenty more teams who could be found with a little research.

    That said it is a fairly commonly held opinion that the ME is flawed but somehow remains balanced.
    Last edited by Barside; 10-04-2012 at 20:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Liverpool & Man City consistently create 20+ scoring chances, I'd dare say there are plenty more teams who could be found with a little research.

    That said it is a fairly commonly held opinion that the ME is flawed but somehow remains balanced.
    Yup, still a few too many in game though, but not as outlandish as people think. Spurs are averaging like 16 a game IIRC, just of the top of my head.

    EDIT: United have had 20+ chances in 4 of their last 6 games. Though I still believe it happens more in FM than IRL.
    Last edited by themadsheep2001; 10-04-2012 at 21:12.

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    Recently my team had a nice winning streak going, maybe 6 games, and we face Udinese (away, in Udine), who is 14th (predicted: 10th). They score from a corner, the attacker tracking him is nowhere to be seen, the midfielder in that region 'misjudged the header'. We push and push and push. Chances, chances, chances. By now their goalie is hot, even though it was only maybe 5 or 6 shots on target that he had stopped. Finally we get one in! We don't manage the win, but the opposition were VERY happy to settle for the draw, the goalie was playing well, but everyone else was having a shock-horror. The moral of the story? We are still top of the league, we beat the no. 2 team 6-0 the week earlier, and I got to give my striker who missed the most chances a good tongue lashing!

    Sometimes you just have to make the most out of a bad situation! Clearly the tactics are good, clearly the players are good (based on the showing against the 2nd best team in the league) but also, clearly small teams are a very different proposition from a team that is actually trying to beat you, and win the game!

  53. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Wasn't wwfan involved in writing that?
    Millie wrote most of this one, although a lot of it was taken from stuff I wrote in previous versions. It was written in parallel with the development of the TC, so Millie had access to all the ideas and mechanisms it tried to incorporate. As a technical document towards understanding how the TC works, it is unsurpassed. However, many of the strategic threads in the tactics forum better illustrate how you can use the TC strategies and shouts to deal with specific in-match situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles-the-victorious View Post
    Recently my team had a nice winning streak going, maybe 6 games, and we face Udinese (away, in Udine), who is 14th (predicted: 10th). They score from a corner, the attacker tracking him is nowhere to be seen, the midfielder in that region 'misjudged the header'. We push and push and push. Chances, chances, chances. By now their goalie is hot, even though it was only maybe 5 or 6 shots on target that he had stopped. Finally we get one in! We don't manage the win, but the opposition were VERY happy to settle for the draw, the goalie was playing well, but everyone else was having a shock-horror. The moral of the story? We are still top of the league, we beat the no. 2 team 6-0 the week earlier, and I got to give my striker who missed the most chances a good tongue lashing!

    Sometimes you just have to make the most out of a bad situation! Clearly the tactics are good, clearly the players are good (based on the showing against the 2nd best team in the league) but also, clearly small teams are a very different proposition from a team that is actually trying to beat you, and win the game!
    Well I think it is unfortunate that so many experience the exact same thing; to crush the other title candidates, the good teams trying to attack, but to really really struggle to win against the small teams even though you do score a goal or two. While it is true that a solid defense and a good counter-attacking strategy is a sensible overall strategy if the team is lacking in player skill, it is not more efficient than dominating the game and pushing the other team deep into their own half. For many users, the opposite seems to be the case in FM - the best teams in the world hardly create anything at all and is easy to stop, while poor teams in poor form seems godlike in their ability to put away their chances. It is arrogant to say that there is something wrong with a tactic that limits the opposition to one or two shots per match over time. That is complete defensive control. This thread has been all about how conceding 50-100% of the chances created by the opposition upsets users because there is nothing that can be done to prevent this from happening, simply because the game does not communicate what is wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    Millie wrote most of this one, although a lot of it was taken from stuff I wrote in previous versions. It was written in parallel with the development of the TC, so Millie had access to all the ideas and mechanisms it tried to incorporate. As a technical document towards understanding how the TC works, it is unsurpassed. However, many of the strategic threads in the tactics forum better illustrate how you can use the TC strategies and shouts to deal with specific in-match situations.
    I wonder how many people who have that document scoff at your input on here?

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    Well, to be fair I don't usually struggle against the small teams, its often a 4-0 or 6-0, but the odd game does come along, maybe 3 or 4 times a season at most, where the backup strikers (who are good, mind you) forgets how to score. I take it as a sign that my tactics were slightly off, or more likely my prematch press conference or team talk somehow left the team complacent still. Its not that difficult to imagine.

    But I specifically scout for big game players, and play them in the big games, so from that perspective I always feel that a win over a top team is hard-earned, given that we have signed players over the years specifically world class, AND big game players. And I usually have a tactic designed specifically to deal with my more pesky rivals, like playing an additional defensive midfielder where I would normally play a right winger or another forward against a smaller team.

    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    Well I think it is unfortunate that so many experience the exact same thing; to crush the other title candidates, the good teams trying to attack, but to really really struggle to win against the small teams even though you do score a goal or two. While it is true that a solid defense and a good counter-attacking strategy is a sensible overall strategy if the team is lacking in player skill, it is not more efficient than dominating the game and pushing the other team deep into their own half. For many users, the opposite seems to be the case in FM - the best teams in the world hardly create anything at all and is easy to stop, while poor teams in poor form seems godlike in their ability to put away their chances. It is arrogant to say that there is something wrong with a tactic that limits the opposition to one or two shots per match over time. That is complete defensive control. This thread has been all about how conceding 50-100% of the chances created by the opposition upsets users because there is nothing that can be done to prevent this from happening, simply because the game does not communicate what is wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Yup, still a few too many in game though, but not as outlandish as people think. Spurs are averaging like 16 a game IIRC, just of the top of my head.

    EDIT: United have had 20+ chances in 4 of their last 6 games. Though I still believe it happens more in FM than IRL.
    I can understand it if I'm ManU or Barca or Real or any of the top teams that are in a top condition have these kind chances for some games.

    But in FM you can do it with mediocre teams or plain good teams, which is crazy. It has been the bane of the ME for years. If you add the fact that the ME does not represent true action you get a game that shows you an amazing number of quality chances but players are not scoring as they would in rl. It's only logical as a player to complain. As a manager you have to create a tactic that beats the opposition and have chances to score. But in FM you seem to get punished for doing so, unless you know some of the "esoteric"knowledge.

    Mind you, I win all the time, that's not my problem. But I want to do it with as much a realistic fashion as possible. Not bombarding teams games after game with chances that in rl could produce 7-0 scores more often than not.

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    Man Utd have created loads of chances due to the fact the opposition have just parked the bus. so they create a lot, but not much room for scoring.
    FM imo tries to balance stuff out, but does it in such a way it annoys the hell out of everyone. a team camping in thier half for half an hour, concedes to some fluky freak defending?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSH View Post
    Mind you, I win all the time, that's not my problem. But I want to do it with as much a realistic fashion as possible. Not bombarding teams games after game with chances that in rl could produce 7-0 scores more often than not.
    But that's easy - don't play a gung ho tactic as a starting point. It is not that hard to overload the opposition with this ME - get fast players to attack through the middle and have everyone else feed through balls to them. This is what most of the plug and play tactics intend to do. It's not hard to create a ton of shots and win most of these games, a match engine weakness no doubt. If you look to play that way you will get certain type of matches and these include the ones where you'll get 30 shots and no goals when the attacking players are off.

    Personally I only use attacking and overload strategies only as a desperate resort when I need to score, I play old school wingers instead of inside forwards with full backs overlapping, I don't restrict crosses, long shots and my tactics don't rely on strikers. Playing that way I usually get realistic results with believable match statistics.

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    i just won a game 6-1 spent nearly a half bombarding them with corners O.o
    i always play attacking, fluid football. i want to have my united team playing like the one in the 8-2 against arsenal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Äktsjon Männ View Post
    Personally I only use attacking and overload strategies only as a desperate resort when I need to score, I play old school wingers instead of inside forwards with full backs overlapping, I don't restrict crosses, long shots and my tactics don't rely on strikers. Playing that way I usually get realistic results with believable match statistics.
    I rarely use attack mentality also as play is rushed and good possesion too often wasted for my liking, I much prefer standard but using shouts such as play wider, exploit flanks, looks for overlap, pass into space and work ball into box. I find my chance creation in general is better when I set up like this against weaker sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    The AI bases their tactical strategy on Reputation and some other things, like form. If they are underdogs they will play more defensively. Counter-attack strategies employed by the AI are generally better than the attacking strategies imo.
    Agree, this is the very nature of football. To break down an opposition, you need to commit players forward, and expose space behind. It is subsequently easier for the opposition to exploit that space should they win back possession and counterattack quickly.

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    Games in which I've conceded this season so far:

    2 SOT - 1 goal
    3 SOT - 2 goals
    3 SOT - 1 goal
    2 SOT - 1 goal
    1 SOT - 1 goal
    1 SOT - 1 goal
    2 SOT - 1 goal
    3 SOT - 1 goal
    9 SOT - 2 goals
    4 SOT - 2 goals
    1 SOT - 1 goal
    1 SOT - 1 goal
    3 SOT - 1 goal
    4 SOT - 3 goal
    2 SOT - 1 goal
    4 SOT - 2 goals
    1 SOT - 1 goal
    1 SOT - 1 goal

    18 games - 47 SOT - 24 Goals

    24/47 = A goal every 0.51 SOT for the AI against me this season.

    Is that normal or a worrying rate? Genuine question.
    Last edited by ArsenalFan7; 12-04-2012 at 00:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    Games in which I've conceded this season so far:

    2 SOT - 1 goal
    3 SOT - 2 goals
    3 SOT - 1 goal
    2 SOT - 1 goal
    1 SOT - 1 goal
    1 SOT - 1 goal
    2 SOT - 1 goal
    3 SOT - 1 goal
    9 SOT - 2 goals
    4 SOT - 2 goals
    1 SOT - 1 goal
    1 SOT - 1 goal
    3 SOT - 1 goal
    4 SOT - 3 goal
    2 SOT - 1 goal
    4 SOT - 2 goals
    1 SOT - 1 goal
    1 SOT - 1 goal

    18 games - 47 SOT - 24 Goals

    24/47 = A goal every 0.51 SOT for the AI against me this season.

    Is that normal or a worrying rate? Genuine question.
    I dont know to be honest, dont know the context in which lies regarding rest of your games, but if the manner of the goals are like the one I said earlier (the one that was better than all of your chances) then that points to an issue where you are constantly giving away good chances.

    I would probably be concerned, but then i would look at how the goals were actually scored.

    We already know that your tactic can be susceptible to the counter.

    How many clean sheets have you had?

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    Overall Woj has only 6 clean sheets in 23 games this season which is not good, he concedes a goal a game going by stats. A disappointing season for him and he is not in the form he has been before.

    I've noticed quite a few of the goals have been that usual cross the AI smashes into the box and then they tap in, how do you stop that?

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    Games in which I've scored this season:

    5 SOT - 1 goal
    2 SOT - 0 goal
    9 SOT - 2 goals
    11 SOT - 5 goals
    8 SOT - 4 goals
    12 SOT - 5 goals - 47 SOT - 17 goals - A goal every 0.36 SOT
    10 SOT - 5 goals
    6 SOT - 4 goals
    6 SOT - 5 goals
    11 SOT - 4 goals
    4 SOT - 1 goal
    5 SOT - 2 goals
    7 SOT - 5 goals
    8 SOT - 2 goals
    4 SOT - 2 goals
    11 SOT - 3 goals
    10 SOT - 5 goals
    4 SOT - 3 goals
    10 SOT - 5 goals
    8 SOT - 4 goals
    4 SOT - 3 goals
    2 SOT - 2 goals
    3 SOT - 1 goal

    160 SOT - 73 Goals

    73/160 = A goal every 0.46 SOT

  67. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    Overall Woj has only 6 clean sheets in 23 games this season which is not good, he concedes a goal a game going by stats. A disappointing season for him and he is not in the form he has been before.

    I've noticed quite a few of the goals have been that usual cross the AI smashes into the box and then they tap in, how do you stop that?
    OK that is an issue. a successful counter attack ( in my experience) usually has a very high goal rate, because of course you have bypassed most of the opposition. I'm not a tactical expert (leave that to the likes of Cleon and wwfan among others) but while you are doing well, you seem to be suffering from 2 issues: creating a high number of not so good quality chances, and being punished by good quality chances after getting hit on the counter.

    EDIT: Looks like you've partly got over that first issue.

    To try and stop that cross, you need to try and prevent your full back getting skinned. Is that cross from their counter? or is from a possession based move?

  68. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    Games in which I've scored this season:

    5 SOT - 1 goal
    2 SOT - 0 goal
    9 SOT - 2 goals
    11 SOT - 5 goals
    8 SOT - 4 goals
    12 SOT - 5 goals - 47 SOT - 17 goals - A goal every 0.36 SOT
    10 SOT - 5 goals
    6 SOT - 4 goals
    6 SOT - 5 goals
    11 SOT - 4 goals
    4 SOT - 1 goal
    5 SOT - 2 goals
    7 SOT - 5 goals
    8 SOT - 2 goals
    4 SOT - 2 goals
    11 SOT - 3 goals
    10 SOT - 5 goals
    4 SOT - 3 goals
    10 SOT - 5 goals
    8 SOT - 4 goals
    4 SOT - 3 goals
    2 SOT - 2 goals
    3 SOT - 1 goal

    160 SOT - 73 Goals

    73/160 = A goal every 0.46 SOT
    How many total shots have you had?

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    OK that is an issue. a successful counter attack ( in my experience) usually has a very high goal rate, because of course you have bypassed most of the opposition. I'm not a tactical expert (leave that to the likes of Cleon and wwfan among others) but while you are doing well, you seem to be suffering from 2 issues: creating a high number of not so good quality chances, and being punished by good quality chances after getting hit on the counter.

    EDIT: Looks like you've partly got over that first issue.

    To try and stop that cross, you need to try and prevent your full back getting skinned. Is that cross from their counter? or is from a possession based move?
    How is it you prevent a full back from getting skinned? I've always had that come up in the assistant advice but had no idea how you're supposed to counter it.

    It's a mix of both really, at times I'll have many men back but a cross finds it's way into the box and they score from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    How is it you prevent a full back from getting skinned? I've always had that come up in the assistant advice but had no idea how you're supposed to counter it.

    It's a mix of both really, at times I'll have many men back but a cross finds it's way into the box and they score from it.
    I try to stand up the winger, my young full backs aren't the best positionally, so i try to stay on feet, hold him up rather than stay tight and dive in, use a deeper line if need be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    How many total shots have you had?
    Just found this:



    163/381 = a SOT every 0.43 shots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    Just found this:



    163/381 = a SOT every 0.43 shots.
    Your conversion rate is actually very good, one goal every 5.44 shots.

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    Not bad, I guess I just have to try and stop teams from countering me but the AI is so good at converting their chances against me. I mean hell they're getting pretty much a goal every 2 shots on target, just need to find the weak link.

    It's especially more frustrating given I usually dominate the teams.

  74. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    Not bad, I guess I just have to try and stop teams from countering me but the AI is so good at converting their chances against me. I mean hell they're getting pretty much a goal every 2 shots on target, just need to find the weak link.

    It's especially more frustrating given I usually dominate the teams.
    The weak point in my view is that tactic is inherently susceptible to the counter, and counters are usually (again in my view) good chances that get converted (hence the 1 in 2). Could be worth putting up some some PKMs of the goals, but it may well be that you might have to sacrifice some attacking verve for some stability. Whether you want to do that is up to you though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    Just found this:



    163/381 = a SOT every 0.43 shots.
    Can you do a comparison with all the AI teams in your division?

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    you can check each teams individually but not all at once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scott MUFC View Post
    you can check each teams individually but not all at once.
    Yes. I know that. I was asking if he could check, not if it were possible.

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    You can probably stop there. As you can see, none of the AI teams are anywhere near your conversion ratio. You are scoring at 1 goal per 5.44 shots. The best the AI can do is 1 goal per 6.78 shots. You can check the other teams, but I doubt any will touch your conversion ratio.

    We can now conclude a few things:

    1: The AI is not so much better at finishing.
    2: There is no issue at all with your attacking play (in your current tactic).
    3: If you are conceding goals at a ratio of greater than 1 in 5.44 shots against, you have a defensive issue.
    4: If you aren't, you are a victim of perspective bias.

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    Excellent, I guess we conclude it all there.

    Nice chatting to you wwfan Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    You can probably stop there. As you can see, none of the AI teams are anywhere near your conversion ratio. You are scoring at 1 goal per 5.44 shots. The best the AI can do is 1 goal per 6.78 shots. You can check the other teams, but I doubt any will touch your conversion ratio.

    We can now conclude a few things:

    1: The AI is not so much better at finishing.
    2: There is no issue at all with your attacking play (in your current tactic).
    3: If you are conceding goals at a ratio of greater than 1 in 5.44 shots against, you have a defensive issue.
    4: If you aren't, you are a victim of perspective bias.
    Well, this is fine and all, but the interesting statistic would be the AI goal/sot ratio against him, not in the fairly randomized matches against each other. This is what the OP and others in this thread have observed, after all. I don't remember if this is the thread where I posted a screenshot of my friend's Chelsea fixtures (using a well-known 4-1-2-3 tactic downloaded from here) where for a month or two every AI shot at goal ended in the net. The first season of this savegame of ours Chech had 20 or so clean sheets in 36 matches and this continued into the second season until 12.2 came about. After that he had like 2 or 3 clean sheets in 20 matches before we discontinued the save. He restricted the opponent to max two or three shots in total per game, but the only way to keep the sheet clean was to prevent shots altogether.

    Now, even though it is not an universal issue, the fact that many people experience that their team is in total control of the match, creating dozens of huge chances while restricting the opponent to zero or a few chances but still lose, and that this happens so much that the idea of rubber-banding manifests itself, should set about a bleeping alert message in the heads of the SI game designers and programmers. You are right that these are management issues that could be (and are) avoided, but that is useless information because regardless of the faults of any game the player can overcome them doing the right things. As an analogy imagine a chessboard where one of the squares is a gaping hole and people keep putting a piece there expecting it to stay on the board, but it disappears every time of course. How helpful is it to say "don't put it there, then"? This isn't to say that there is a programming error or game design fault of FM that so many customers experience AI hyperefficiency, but the failure to communicate what is wrong is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    Well, this is fine and all, but the interesting statistic would be the AI goal/sot ratio against him, not in the fairly randomized matches against each other.
    Only if it is far better than 1 goal per 5.44 shots. We already know the AI has a worse goal / shots on target ratio than him (see post # 363).

    Unless the AI is scoring at a better rate than 1 in 5.44 against him, the latter half of your post carries no weight, as the feeling that the AI has a better conversion ratio in user matches is completely illusory and merely perception bias. The only issue is that sometimes the AI wins matches in which it has fewer shots, which is a total non-issue in my book. It happens sometimes in real life and it happens sometimes in FM. 'Nuff zed.

    If, of course, someone does post a conversion ratio illustrating the user being unfairly disadvantaged, we can then identify what might cause it by looking at tactical settings and pkms, and look at tactical solutions. The OP has already switched to one of "my" tactics, which might be causing a bias in conversion in his favour that wasn't there previously. He might well have been suffering a horrible ratio prior to the switch. If he has an earlier save game, he could check. However, again, it will merely prove there is a tactical solution.

    As for your last few comments, I'd agree that the commentary and stats could be made better to help the user understand why he isn't converting. However, the ultimate evidence that something is wrong is the consistent failure to win. For me, that is largely enough in itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    Only if it is far better than 1 goal per 5.44 shots. We already know the AI has a worse goal / shots on target ratio than him (see post # 363).
    Looking at post #363 & the screen grabs the AI has a statistically significant improved goal per shots on target ratio when playing ArsenalFan.

    They also show that his is creating at it's closest point nearly 50% more scoring chances the AI teams over the course of the season so far, in my mind this would indicate a significant imbalance in the match engine due to the tactics he is employing, thankfully for him the imbalance over the whole piece is in his favour.

    Edit: Can't believe I never looked at these stats beyond my own team, getting some interesting comparative figures from my game.
    Last edited by Barside; 12-04-2012 at 11:02.

  88. #388
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    I have to add, with much credit to wwfan, I have played a number of games using my CA system, but I have now set all my attacking players to the default mentalities for this system.


    I have since recorded a great run of results, including scoring 6 goals at home against Newcastle and Man Utd! So, in a paradoxical way, attacking mentalities can have an adverse affect on a players ability to score goals.
    Last edited by bullybeef; 12-04-2012 at 11:48.

  89. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Looking at post #363 & the screen grabs the AI has a statistically significant improved goal per shots on target ratio when playing ArsenalFan.

    They also show that his is creating at it's closest point nearly 50% more scoring chances the AI teams over the course of the season so far, in my mind this would indicate a significant imbalance in the match engine due to the tactics he is employing, thankfully for him the imbalance over the whole piece is in his favour.

    Edit: Can't believe I never looked at these stats beyond my own team, getting some interesting comparative figures from my game.
    Agree that the stats suggest the OP has some serious defensive issues, which he compensates for with his efficiency in attack.

    I aso posted while he was uploading his last screenshot, which has an AI team with a 1 in 5.88 conversion ratio, so my original post was slightly misleading. Even so, the OP converts at a better rate than any AI team.

    Worth noting that these ratios are better than you'd expect in real life.

  90. #390
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    OK, I want to leave the issue alone but I just don't get it.

    You'd think I'd have a conference level goalkeeper and a league 2 standard defence the way I concede so simply. When in fact I have quite the opposite, one of the greatest goalkeepers in the world and easily one of the best defences.

    Watching me concede like this is like seeing Barcelona in real life hit on the break and simply conceding every 1 in 2 shots that are on target.




  91. #391
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    So what, basically I have to just prevent shots altogether to stop conceding?

  92. #392
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    We'd need to see clips of the goals, for all we know the majority of goals you concede could be from counter attacks when you're chasing a needless 3rd or 4th goal & set-pieces.

    Context is everything.
    Last edited by Barside; 12-04-2012 at 16:40. Reason: mis-read image

  93. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7 View Post
    So what, basically I have to just prevent shots altogether to stop conceding?
    You have to design a tactic that isn't vulnerable to counterattacks. What tactic are you using now? I mean formation + team and individual instructions.

    Edit: if you upload it I can try it in a match to get first impressions.

  94. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    We'd need to see clips of the goals, for all we know the majority of goals you concede could be from counter attacks when you're chasing a needless 3rd or 4th goal & set-pieces.

    Context is everything.

    Edit: One thing I have noticed is that you do not get all that many corners, for such an attacking team this is somewhat surprising.
    I'm trying to upload their goals but it's not letting me atm.

  95. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    You have to design a tactic that isn't vulnerable to counterattacks. What tactic are you using now? I mean formation + team and individual instructions.

    Edit: if you upload it I can try it in a match to get first impressions.
    http://www.mediafire.com/?j7bjnjz51n1bg55

  96. #396
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    Could you upload the pkm of that Barca match?

  97. #397
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    I haven't seen a formation like that since the old left-sided sweeper.

    It looks like you must at all costs retain possession of the ball otherwise your defence will get overrun, who've actually only got 3 players on the field in primarily defensive positions & one of those is your keeper.

  98. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Äktsjon Männ View Post
    Could you upload the pkm of that Barca match?
    http://www.mediafire.com/?twjlnrm3pubx2cj

    Obviously the thing that stands out for the goals is the horrific defending and it's self explanatory how they're able to score, albeit lucky that those were there only 2 chances that were on target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    I haven't seen a formation like that since the old left-sided sweeper.

    It looks like you must at all costs retain possession of the ball otherwise your defence will get overrun, who've actually only got 3 players on the field in primarily defensive positions & one of those is your keeper.
    It is a bit of an insane formation, based upon that totalvoetball tactic.

    Alright, I'll give that a shot, cheers.

  99. #399
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    And fwiw we have conceded the least in the league, 17 in 25.

    Whilst we score the most with 78 in 25.

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    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    This is why you concede goals. Why on earth use a Libero behind ONE defender? They just stand on each other's toes without doing anything worthwhile the whole match. You are sluicing their strikers into the two channels where their chances of scoring are the highest. No wonder the defending is terrible. The attacking play is really good, though, although I think that central MC should have very defensive tasks if he is not dropped into the DMC position. The poor CD's will be keeping the fort alone all day...

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