Why is the AI so much better at finishing?

**Apos** · 07-04-2012 16:23

Originally Posted by wwfan

The remainder of your post is total nonsense. This thread won't be closed unless people start wading in being personal. The thread about the game being too easy posted prior to 12.1 resulted in a concerted effort from developers, moderators and users to discover what the issue was. A successful concerted effort too. If I think somebody has discovered a genuinely new and big bug, I'll personally report it to Paul.

Oh really? Is it?

Because other moderators agree with the exact opposite things of you. They would say that the woodworks is because I create a lot of CCC and try to fool the ME,nothing is said about the own goals and the only thing they agree about is the defense. Which they'd better agree with,because the defense of the PC controlled team is just crap,and no,it's not anyone tactics that the defenders will forget to play football at the worst times.

Injuries are bugged as well. The amount of injuries is not bugged,I agree,it's "close to real numbers",like other moderators would say. What's wrong is how much close those injuries are to each other. Instead of giving as sporadic injuries,the game just bombards the player with injuries every few months. Having 1-2 injuries is really rare. Players either find themselves with a clean sheet or with having 6 of their basic players injured. And there's nothing we can do about it. And please spare me the "it's my tactics or training",my training is medium on intensity and my players always start with 100% condition and end with around 60-70%. And I always give a 1 day rest after each match as well! And when playing below the top division it's even worse,since you will have players with lower physical stats.

My post is total nonsense? I got a ban because I told a moderator that something he was calling a "bug" is not,but no,I continuously had my posts deleted and myself censored. Then I get banned because I took it personal against him? I got banned because I reacted to being treated like sending letters from Alcatraz?

While I was banned I saw a post about a problem being reported and the exact same moderator said that "if you got any problems,report it to the bugs forum". The exact same problem was reported by me personally a week ago and he had no clue about it,yet the only excuse he had was "the bugs forums"? Yet I'm the one being illogical?

**achilles-the-victorious** · 07-04-2012 18:30

What about lacking consistency, lacking composure, making a bad decision, getting complacent against a smaller team. Whenever a result goes against me (Fm11) I try to think that the result is what the simulator is trying to get me to respond to. So if I lose against smaller teams, yeah, I will look at whether we created chances, did we close them down, but just as important, are my players determined and professional enough to not get complacent, and not switch off. Was my team talk and press conference appropriate (in terms of telling my players its not going to be a walk in the park, for e.g.).

Any way, if you lose 1-0 the problem isn't only that you were scored on in ridiculous fashion, its that your club was unable to get the goals flowing. How many times I have tried to attack teams down to 10 men I couldn't tell you, but has it worked? Rarely. So is FM *****? I don't think so, the team down a man takes a defensive mentality and camps in front of goal. If you are in a hurry to score you will create lots of 1/2 chances and take shots from all over, but are they actually quality chances? A more patient approach seems to work for me (and my tactics) almost every time I find myself unable to break down the opposition with my standard attacking play.

**bullybeef** · 07-04-2012 22:26

I can completely understand both sides of the argument here.

When things are going wrong, we can analyse it and spot the problem, sometimes we can't. Sometimes if we miss chances, there is something wrong with our tactics, sometimes it maybe a lack of luck.

I test many different tactics many times in practice games, and I'll win one, and loose the next, against the same team, yet the only difference between the two games was just one player's reaction during the team talk; it wasn't my tactics, because I kept them identical. I wouldn't have known this had I not practised. It isn't always our tactics, there could be innumerate reasons, and only we can either try to solve them, or accept them, no one really has the perfect solution.

But I also understand the intensity at loosing after having many chances, yet this does occur IRL, whether we like it or not (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17570800). But I do understand how difficult it is to accept this occurring on a computer game. We're used to having umpteen lives on game, and even if we die, an autosave gives us another opportunity. Whereas in we loose on FM, we loose, and it could mean the end of a full season, and that's hard to take, but I suppose this is as close to RL footy management we can get, and if we wish to feel the highs, we have to accept the lows.

I will confess though, I really struggle to accept this on a computer game, and I know now it is a question of accepting the game as it is. We can't change it. What I would suggest is maybe SI include a difficulty level for novice (or impatient) gamers (like me

). Or maybe the goal conversion rate could even be manually adjusted when you select a new game, to suit everyone's acceptable goal conversion rate level.

I suppose one could question that if there is such a conversion rate within the game, is a player's ability to actually score a chance taken into account, or does the conversion rate override their attributes? Is it the conversion rate that forces a player to miss?

Lastly, once we've bought the game it's all ours, to play with how we please, and if you feel you've lost a game by hook or by crook, you can always save it beforehand and replay it. And what a better way to learn how not to loose? And trial and error is the most natural way how to learn something anyway. No one has any right to say how the game should be played, it's all yours.

**Loversleaper** · 07-04-2012 23:07

I am pretty sure that the AI is not "so much better at finishing", it might appear that it does - but this can be explained as there is some form of logic behind it. I think that if the AI does appear to be able "to finish better" then it most likely will be because the AI usually is very good at using the correct strategies (for the match), so if the Human User is not (so good at it) then you will get some of the type of results that I have seen in this thread.

I think that many people haven't understood this part of the game as it has more influence than one might think. The CONTROL Strategy (for example) in many ways has a misleading aspect, the Strategy does not mean that you will necessarily "control" the game (other strategies can easily control just as much or even more - especially if you use the correct one for the match). In reality this type of tactic if used at home to a much weaker opponent does not possess enough "overpowering" values to actually break down this type of opponent - even if the Match Stats indicate that you do. Using the wrong type of Strategy usually throws your games more into the 'random' reality which is not always the best way to have good result form over a longer periode of time. I'm not saying that it won't work, but my experience is that using the (more or less) correct strategies will help you do better than worse in the long run. There are always going to be some form of random aspects in the game, but will argue that these types of things happens less frequently when you start using the strategy reality in the game to your advantage.

The better your team gets and the better results you acheive will actually make your opponents play more defensively, in the FM world that means that the AI will emphasize more on the defensive values that the sliders create making it harder for your team to overpower them, this explains why people's tactics seem to 'dry up' over a course of time. You have to understand how to use the values to 'overpower' your opponents (either defensively or offensively) and you can do this by using the ingame strategies...

**marty78** · 07-04-2012 23:16

Thats a more balanced post from you Bullybeef

.

I think the biggest problem is people expecting to win just because they are the better team or on better form. We all know that, both in real life and in FM, this is not always the case. Sometimes it can just be bad luck and the bad luck factor is the reason I rarely believe those that claim to have gone the season unbeaten.

I think trying to judge what is happening in a match just from the stats can also be an issue. People seem to think that because they have more possession and are having more shots that they are playing well when actually watching the matches will show your teams wasting chances and losing possession in dangerous areas. The quality of chances, as has been stated many times, is more important than the quantity.

There is a difficulty level of sorts and that is your starting rep as a manager. I have personally tried starting as "International footballer" and this definately makes things easier in the short term.

**bullybeef** · 07-04-2012 23:23

I know marty78, I've changed (being a LFC supporter helps

)!!

I just played a great quality game of pass and move away in a tricky European Champions League game. Missed an loads of chances (2 one on ones and 2 penalties!!!), scored with a 25 yrd FK, and absolutely pass them off the park, but I still refused to change my tactics because we were playing so well. I have to put the misses down the the fickle fate of FM luck, and hope another team will pay the price!

**marty78** · 07-04-2012 23:33

A Liverpool fan eh? Well then I'm sure you'll know about failing to win matches you are favorite for given their home record this season. I am a Leicester fan so i feel your pain.

Edit - Only just seen Loverleapers post and it is very well put.

**scott MUFC** · 08-04-2012 01:42

really getting annoyed, every away game, my players miss every tap in or get one dissalowed wrongly, or are offside. then they score near the end on thier first shot.
FM luck, doesnt come into it, just plain rediculous especially as i have to rest decent players because of one dumb friendly that was thrown into a week where i have a midweek game

**ArsenalFan7** · 08-04-2012 02:12

Originally Posted by Apos

Injuries are bugged as well. The amount of injuries is not bugged,I agree,it's "close to real numbers",like other moderators would say. What's wrong is how much close those injuries are to each other. Instead of giving as sporadic injuries,the game just bombards the player with injuries every few months. Having 1-2 injuries is really rare. Players either find themselves with a clean sheet or with having 6 of their basic players injured. And there's nothing we can do about it. And please spare me the "it's my tactics or training",my training is medium on intensity and my players always start with 100% condition and end with around 60-70%. And I always give a 1 day rest after each match as well! And when playing below the top division it's even worse,since you will have players with lower physical stats.

I think you may be on to something here, here's my most recent example:

Robin has just returned from injury. Next game Hanousek and Teffera (Only other remaining strikers) go off injured and they're out for 3-4 weeks and 3-4 months, convenient. Not suspect at all, Teffera is especially interesting considering he is never injured.

So now with 1 striker left for the majority of the season remaining a 4-6-0 may have to take use at times.

And then earlier on in the season just had a region where I was barraged with injuries and couldn't even put 7 on the bench, then there's other times I have barely any injuries.

**scott MUFC** · 08-04-2012 02:20

it isn't helped by the fact you get a one week international break, i see squad for next match, only 3 players at 100% 100%, ALL left and right backs below 95% bar one newgen. which is what i call, an injury magnet
there is also far to many offsides in this game. correct ones, and the rediculous ones.
players seem to be able to chip the keeper easier then score from a free kick, which is very strange.

**wwfan** · 08-04-2012 03:12

Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7

I think you may be on to something here, here's my most recent example:

And then earlier on in the season just had a region where I was barraged with injuries and couldn't even put 7 on the bench, then there's other times I have barely any injuries.

If you have so many injuries you can't field a full bench, then your squad management is suspect. Seems to me that you don't have enough players. Furthermore, if you only have three forwards in the squad, you will end up over playing them, which results in a higher likelihood of them being injured.

While I'd agree that there is slightly too high an occurrence of players getting injured in match, in general it is very possible to manage your squad so injuries rarely become a major issue.

**deathspawn666** · 08-04-2012 05:47

just had a game where all my 4 world class defenders (who play together for 2 years in Real Madrid and had superb morale) playing like kids and AI had 4 targets on shot and made 4 goals, that's a 100% ratio. Oh and the tactic is the same for 2 years and destroys even Barcelona. No AI BIAS? yeah right i guess some ****** manager from a lower team can obviously be a better manager then all the other AI world class teams...
currently replaying the game, AI 1st crossing of the game and shot = 1 goal, 2nd shot on target = goal, defenders once again not marking ppl inside penalty area.

**wwfan** · 08-04-2012 05:58

Why can't people just accept losses as "one of those things"? There's no conspiracy, no rubber banding, no AI cheats. You just lost a virtual football match.

**deathspawn666** · 08-04-2012 06:03

Originally Posted by wwfan

Why can't people just accept losses as "one of those things"? There's no conspiracy, no rubber banding, no AI cheats. You just lost a virtual football match.

because people buy a game to have fun and loosing due to players being bad against lower rep teams isn't definition of fun and there is almost nothing we can do to change those players attitudes. and no teamtalks only won't fix their attitude on the field. and i don't see big team players being bad against my low rep teams.

**wwfan** · 08-04-2012 06:26

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

because people buy a game to have fun and loosing due to players being bad against lower rep teams isn't definition of fun and there is almost nothing we can do to change those players attitudes. and no teamtalks only won't fix their attitude on the field. and i don't see big team players being bad against my low rep teams.

What would you like fixing? That you never lose to teams worse than you?

**deathspawn666** · 08-04-2012 06:42

Originally Posted by wwfan

What would you like fixing? That you never lose to teams worse than you?

i would like the loose because a better manager from AI was able to beat me and not because of the stupid reputation thing or because 1 bad teamtalk screws half the team or because my AM who isn't agressive suddenly decided to play karate in a champs league and getting a sent off.
i seriously dunno why SI decided to make a new match engine in fm11 and tweak it a bit and put it again on fm12. fm10 also had it's problems but was way more realistic then what we have today.

here's the problems i see with fm12:
players missing too many 1 vs 1
defenders are bad when it comes to marking
too many balls hitting the bar/post
lower team reputation vs big team reputation is one sided, always works bad for the big team. smaller team players nervous or afraid of big team ? don't see that
the karate attitude of a player who has less then 10 points in agression and has superb moral
the fact that player stats and reputation seems to have no effect on how easy they can get nervous if you make a bad teamtalk.
AI players always determined to score a goal even if they are loosing 3-0 or more meanwhile our players go ape mode

all those previous problems when put into an offsensive tactic makes the game seen as Biased because that will happen way more often to us. the shot on target/goals ratio is fine though.

now about what i want, i want to not struggle everytime i face a small team, i want not to steam roll big teams that makes them looklike amateurs. on my 1st game as manager with Real Madrid against Barcelona i steam rolled them 4-0, i was happy sure but then with same tactic on next game i loose against a small team the only thing that comes to mind is WTF why are they missing so many goals, why cant Ronaldo score a freaking 1 vs 1

**wwfan** · 08-04-2012 06:46

Sometimes **** happens and players get sent off.

Out of interest, what changes do you make when playing weak teams? How do you approach these matches in terms of motivation and tactics?

**deathspawn666** · 08-04-2012 07:03

Originally Posted by wwfan

Sometimes **** happens and players get sent off.

Out of interest, what changes do you make when playing weak teams? How do you approach these matches in terms of motivation and tactics?

i don't like teamtalks so Assistant manager takes care of it, he has 18 in group management and players either react good or just stay the same.
big teams: DCs defending, DL/DR support, MC defensive, MC offsensive, AML/AMR wingers, 2 strikers
small teams: i change MC offensive to either defensive or winning ball, AML/AMR usually go inside forwards however if center is too crowded they stay wingers.
i always play in attacking mentality, if i go lower then that my team will just start giving way too many posession and eventually conceed a goal. oh and the slider for defensive line is always in the middle

even though i understand noone is a perfect manager it doens't make sense for Ronaldo or Messi go ape mode against small teams...

**wwfan** · 08-04-2012 07:09

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

i don't like teamtalks so Assistant manager takes care of it, he has 18 in group management and players either react good or just stay the same.
big teams: DCs defending, DL/DR support, MC defensive, MC offsensive, AML/AMR wingers, 2 strikers
small teams: i change MC offensive to either defensive or winning ball, AML/AMR usually go inside forwards however if center is too crowded they stay wingers.
i always play in attacking mentality, if i go lower then that my team will just start giving way too many posession and eventually conceed a goal. oh and the slider for defensive line is always in the middle

Your unwillingness to play more patient football says a lot. You are inviting the counter. Especially so with a 4-2-4.

**deathspawn666** · 08-04-2012 07:15

Originally Posted by wwfan

Your unwillingness to play more patient football says a lot. You are inviting the counter. Especially so with a 4-2-4.

from my experience in fm12 patient football = more relaxed players. i tried and all my players did were shooting less scoring less and still conceeding in counter attacks.
and as for those CA it's usually because some player went ape mode and missed a easy tackle or messi/ronaldo missed a drible against some AMC...
off to bed now, thanks for your responses

**wwfan** · 08-04-2012 07:21

Yu have very little cover with an attacking 4-2-4, so missed tackles are to be expected. I'd also be wary of playing more patiently with a 4-2-4. I'd look to be keeping more players behind the ball. Perhaps a 4-3-3/4-51 or a 4-2-3-1 Deep.

By playing an attacking 4-2-4, you will win some games by big scorelines, but you risk losing goals from counter attacks, which plays into the hands of weaker sides.

**bullybeef** · 08-04-2012 10:53

Playing Devil's advocate here, I do think there's is more of an issue when a lower rep team, particularly one that is in poor form, and only has a small squad, seems to overcome moral and fitness issues when they play a human player.

If moral can hit the human team so drastically that they suddenly can't string two passes together, when they have done so against other teams, yet a lower rep opponent suddenly passes them off the park, that can seem to be a little one sided.

Why does low moral and poor condition not affect the AI teams?

**TheBetterHalf** · 08-04-2012 11:47

Originally Posted by bullybeef

Playing Devil's advocate here, I do think there's is more of an issue when a lower rep team, particularly one that is in poor form, and only has a small squad, seems to overcome moral and fitness issues when they play a human player.

If moral can hit the human team so drastically that they suddenly can't string two passes together, when they have done so against other teams, yet a lower rep opponent suddenly passes them off the park, that can seem to be a little one sided.

Why does low moral and poor condition not affect the AI teams?

In all My saves, AI teams DOES get affected by their poor morale, especially if I manage to get ahead or use OIs on those players acting nervouse, playing poorly etc. Not all teams struggling have poor morale though, hence they dont suffer from it.

**The Hand of God** · 08-04-2012 15:21

Originally Posted by Äktsjon Männ

He just got caught out. You're playing a 4-1-2-2-1 with attacking wingers who in this ME basically play as strikers and never track back (especially on attacking mentality), leaving your full backs constantly one on one with the opposition wingers.

Yes, if you play with AML/AMR, their mentality should be mid-normal at most for your baseline tactic. In fact, as a general rule, the more naturally "attacking" your formation, the more you should tone down overall mentality as AMC/AML/AMR mentality settings correspond to significantly higher MC/ML/MR mentalities (meaning they will not contribute to the defensive phase if their mentality is high-normal or attacking).

And since the 12.1 morale changes, ultra-attacking tactics have lost their previous advantage. Players no longer get a huge, long-term morale boost from obliterating smaller opposition, so you now need a more balanced standard tactic. This is the reason why many popular plug-and-play tactics no longer work, and it's also why many AI managers that were good in FM11 are very poor in FM12. As you may recall, Arsenal under Wenger typically came to dominate the EPL in FM11 whereas, in FM12.1 and beyond, Wenger's high attacking attribute and very offensive formation typically get him sacked within two seasons. On the other hand, AI managers like Rafa Benitez, who use a generally offensive formation (4231 Deep) but a balanced mentality, tend to find much more success in FM12 than they did in FM11.

**deathspawn666** · 08-04-2012 15:29

Originally Posted by wwfan

Yu have very little cover with an attacking 4-2-4, so missed tackles are to be expected. I'd also be wary of playing more patiently with a 4-2-4. I'd look to be keeping more players behind the ball. Perhaps a 4-3-3/4-51 or a 4-2-3-1 Deep.

By playing an attacking 4-2-4, you will win some games by big scorelines, but you risk losing goals from counter attacks, which plays into the hands of weaker sides.

it's not really a 4-2-4, it's more like 4-2-2-2

**BiggusD** · 08-04-2012 15:56

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

it's not really a 4-2-4, it's more like 4-2-2-2

If the central midfielders are not DMC's, WWfan is right about that tactic being risky. The wingers will behave like strikers both in the AMRL position and the FRL position. In fact, AMRL players are natural in FRL as well even though it doesn't look like that in the Positions screen. I don't think it is possible to achieve good defending using TC role and duties only in this formation; the defense will be too passive and aggression and decisiveness is essential. The moment one of your defenders or midfielders close down a player and doesn't manage to either win possession right then and there, or to stress him to do a defensive pass, you basically have one half of a football field of space littered with randomly placed players who can do little to prevent the opponent to do whatever they want. The four guys up front certainly score the goals, though!

It helps moving the MC's to DMC position because they are more correctly positioned both when attacking and defending then. The four guys up front manage fine on their own. The problem when using pure TC is that you can't set defenders and defensive midfielders to be attacking (aggressive) enough so you end up with a six-man defense that hesitates and withdraws from challenges when that is the worst thing they could possibly do. Maybe setting the entire team to "Overload" and then make the four forwards as defensive as possible would do the trick...

No wonder your world class defenders play like kids

**bullybeef** · 08-04-2012 16:02

Missing good quality chances will always be inflammatory, maybe because there doesn't seem to be a feasible solution. The way I play is to create numerous good quality chances, and I have tried many different tactical connotations. And I even changed my tactics prior to a reserve game or youth game to see how they get on.

But it seems nothing prevents my players from missing decent chances. I just beat Barca 1-0, and hammered them on chances, and without any question, they have to be the luckiest side I have faced. One one occasion the ball trickled across the goal line whist their defender and GK desperately tried to clear without scoring an own goal - how they managed this I don't know.

In my investigation to remedy missing good quality chances, I have tried.

High CF - Low CF - Balanced CF for my Att/Creative players = The only visual difference was the amount of chances I create; the lower the CF, the fewer the chances, but quality chances are still missed.

High Tempo - Low Tempo - Balanced Tempo = A higher tempo seems to move the ball around swifter, a lower tempo seems to create fewer chances, but quality chances are still missed.

High Att Mentalities - Low Att Mentalities - Balanced Att Mentalities = Again the lower the Att Mentalities, the fewer chances I create, but quality chances are still missed.

Rare Time Wasting - High Time Wasting - Balanced Time Wasting = Fewer chances created with high time wasting, but quality chances are still missed.

I really crave a simplified solution to this problem. Having exhausted all possibilities, I find scoring the first goal absolutely vital, then I tend to experiment on improving my shots to goals ratio, with little consistency (I seem to score more half chances). Luckily I seem to have understood a decent defensive structure, but I'm afraid it's making the game very dull, and the lack of reward for some great attacking endeavour is highly frustrating.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

**deathspawn666** · 08-04-2012 18:17

Originally Posted by BiggusD

If the central midfielders are not DMC's, WWfan is right about that tactic being risky. The wingers will behave like strikers both in the AMRL position and the FRL position. In fact, AMRL players are natural in FRL as well even though it doesn't look like that in the Positions screen. I don't think it is possible to achieve good defending using TC role and duties only in this formation; the defense will be too passive and aggression and decisiveness is essential. The moment one of your defenders or midfielders close down a player and doesn't manage to either win possession right then and there, or to stress him to do a defensive pass, you basically have one half of a football field of space littered with randomly placed players who can do little to prevent the opponent to do whatever they want. The four guys up front certainly score the goals, though!

It helps moving the MC's to DMC position because they are more correctly positioned both when attacking and defending then. The four guys up front manage fine on their own. The problem when using pure TC is that you can't set defenders and defensive midfielders to be attacking (aggressive) enough so you end up with a six-man defense that hesitates and withdraws from challenges when that is the worst thing they could possibly do. Maybe setting the entire team to "Overload" and then make the four forwards as defensive as possible would do the trick...

No wonder your world class defenders play like kids

but my MCs are on defensive midfield duty. I'm using khedira and javi garcia on MC position but with defensive midfield defensive option. i don't put them in DM position because that usually makes center too crowded because de DR/DL will also be helping if AI is going through the middle. my problem with defending is always having 1 DC missing a tackle and a DR/DL covering him and miss the freaking tackle too even tough the AI player isn't good at dribling
about the AML and AMR yeah they do behave a lot like strikers.
btw i'm using zone marking, could that be the problem? i'm using opposition instructions also for the most dangerous players, usually fast strikers.
currently playing a champs match and moved 1 MC to DM position and now it's worst, the DM completely ignores AMC players running their direcction and DC has to try cover up his mistakes and obviously leaves strikers alone. 2 goals conceeded because DM wouldn't mark AMC. meanwhile all opposition players were able to tackle Ronaldo and Neymar from behind. DR/DL NEVER tried to tackle the AMC even though they had no yeallow card and were running with the AMC until he gets 3 meters from the GK...

**Sussex Hammer** · 08-04-2012 18:24

It's definitely not tactics IMO as before the last patch my right sided striker was scoring regularly and whilst the left struggled at times I am sure that's down to right footed players on the left not being very good!!

Same tactics new patch and my top scorer is Carlton Cole with 6 goals by January. I brought in Adebayor at the start of the season and he has scored a pathetic 2. He is getting chances but he usually hits them with the power of a wet flannel and they pee roller wide, this by an apparently decent striker.

Plus just been on a great run and only a few games ago played Arsenal off the park and yet I have just lost 2-0 to botrtom of the table Blackpool with yep you have guessed it them scoring their only two chances of the game. I batter them and yet my usually reliable left back short changes a pass back and it's the best pass Blackpool's striker gets all game.

You will be told that it's overconfidence (rather than wins breeding confidence) and your players got sloppy but that's not football management that's luck, especially when both start of game and half time team talks get a positive green response. So you literally are left with just having to accept that on this occasion you will just not win no matter what you do.

**scott MUFC** · 08-04-2012 19:16

the thing is, a top quality player when through on goal has more chance to score then someone who is at a lower team. this isn't adressed. i'm getting sick of conceding 2 goals to the boltons, west broms and birminghams because they score from 2 passages of play, usualy from kick offs.
the odd time maybe but so far this season, it has happened in a good 11 games.

**deathspawn666** · 08-04-2012 19:37

Originally Posted by scott MUFC

the thing is, a top quality player when through on goal has more chance to score then someone who is at a lower team. this isn't adressed. i'm getting sick of conceding 2 goals to the boltons, west broms and birminghams because they score from 2 passages of play, usualy from kick offs.
the odd time maybe but so far this season, it has happened in a good 11 games.

and dont forget to add the super AI crossing that never goes near keeper meanwhile our AML/AMR cross straight into the keeper when they had lots of space
or the AI tackles from behind inside penalty area that 99% of the time are sucesseful meanwhile our defenders won't tackle or it will be a penalty

**achilles-the-victorious** · 08-04-2012 20:36

All I can suggest to those not happy with FM12 is try FM11, I am still playing it because I think its a very good game, well balanced, fun, rewarding. Its not as easy to improve a game as people think. You can change something to please one group of gamers (hardcores) and upset another (newbies).

**ArsenalFan7** · 08-04-2012 20:51

Originally Posted by wwfan

If you have so many injuries you can't field a full bench, then your squad management is suspect. Seems to me that you don't have enough players. Furthermore, if you only have three forwards in the squad, you will end up over playing them, which results in a higher likelihood of them being injured.

While I'd agree that there is slightly too high an occurrence of players getting injured in match, in general it is very possible to manage your squad so injuries rarely become a major issue.

No, no, I have 22 outfield players registered and then 3 or so youngsters who don't have to be registered. (I'm in Spain so it's a max squad size of 23 outfielders)

And I have 4 strikers currently in my first team, previously 5 but one talented young striker was sent out on loan before the whole injury saga begun as he wanted first team football and anyway, my fourth striker has been injured for a while now, he had a 3-4 month injury which he suffered in February iirc.

And anyway sure Teffera has played a lot but he has a high natural fitness attribute and is not injury prone, he was last injured for a small time of 3 weeks around 3 seasons back and played 37 of 38 games last year only missing one through suspension. He's one of the most injury free players ever for me.

Where this random long term injury pops up from FM only knows! There's too many players being injured in game and you already admit this so fair enough I say.

**ArsenalFan7** · 08-04-2012 21:29

And fwiw Robin has just gone off injured in a game. I have no strikers. Turned out to be only a concussion but still so many going off injured.

There's an issue there.

**BiggusD** · 08-04-2012 21:37

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

but my MCs are on defensive midfield duty. I'm using khedira and javi garcia on MC position but with defensive midfield defensive option. i don't put them in DM position because that usually makes center too crowded because de DR/DL will also be helping if AI is going through the middle. my problem with defending is always having 1 DC missing a tackle and a DR/DL covering him and miss the freaking tackle too even tough the AI player isn't good at dribling
about the AML and AMR yeah they do behave a lot like strikers.
btw i'm using zone marking, could that be the problem? i'm using opposition instructions also for the most dangerous players, usually fast strikers.
currently playing a champs match and moved 1 MC to DM position and now it's worst, the DM completely ignores AMC players running their direcction and DC has to try cover up his mistakes and obviously leaves strikers alone. 2 goals conceeded because DM wouldn't mark AMC. meanwhile all opposition players were able to tackle Ronaldo and Neymar from behind. DR/DL NEVER tried to tackle the AMC even though they had no yeallow card and were running with the AMC until he gets 3 meters from the GK...

Players running after (or by the side of) opposition players just ballwatching is a result of too defensive mentalities, and/or possibly poor form and lacking confidence. Lack of tactical familiarity could also have the same result. If you want them to make the tackle you will have to increase your defenders' mentalities to highish Normal or even Attacking.

I use Tight Man Marking in my tactic (the defenders, the rest are zonal). I like that they are as close as possible to their designated opponent, so that when they get the ball they have no time to do anything with it. This causes all six men in the back to run out of position continuously, including he central defenders - but when they do the DMC runs in and covers him so it is mostly fine. How could it possibly be too crowded in the centre when they play narrowly? That is exactly what you want! As many men as possible where it counts the most...

The MC's in a 424 (4222) tactic are virtually useless as they don't cover space in front of the defense and they don't join the attack and help out there either. Because of the large gaps between the defending and attacking four, the two MC's will constantly be lost in the middle unable to influence anything of substance. On defensive duties they will track back well but be too passive, and on attacking duties they will be aggressive but not track back. On balanced duties they will neither cover space nor help out with the attacks. This was why I moved them both back to DMC position, where they at least helps the defense very well, and they link the full backs and the wingers really nicely as well as regaining possession after clearances. The problem is that the TC settings with the roles and duties can't replicate what I did, and so they can't replicate that tactic. It won't work. As I said in the previous post I don't think it is possible to create a defensively sound 424 tactic using the duties and roles in the TC. What you experience is therefore completely natural considering the nature of the formation and the limitations of the TC.

**Apos** · 08-04-2012 22:31

Most of the comments above pretty much sum a big part of my own grudges against the game.

Injuries are a bit too close together to be looked upon as an unfortunate occurense. And the fact that a stubbed finger is enough a reason to swap a player mid-match and then lose him for a couple weeks doesn't help either.

And then we have morale and dedication. I can understand that professional players are better for that,but how is it possible that every single lowlie team that has been on a run of 15+ loses,with players of abysmal morale and surely not professional players just happens to find their lust for football against the player's team out of nowhere? Every single one of them. And it's almost always someone "scoring their first goal of the season" or even "of their career" as well.

Deathspawn has given a few really accurate things that seem biased against the player,key word being "seem" here. Some of them might be,some of them not.

It doesn't have to be that the game is programmed to act like that,just that it happened to turn out like that in practice.

Like it's been said before,the AI seems to do everything close to spotless. Their marking,their crossing,everything seems perfect,whereas PC players seem to forget about what football is about.

And the "change your tactics" is a bit tiresome. It makes most of us feel like we're being mistaken for players that took a random tactic,put some players there and expected to win. Trust me,I've tried a lot of things,most of them in vain though.

The match preparation system doesn't help either. The game practically punishes us for trying new things,whereas the AI seems to be able to change tactics and perform well with them with ease.

This is a question that I always had since the introduction of this feature in FM11, do the AI teams have any penalties from changing tactics? Does the match preparation system affect them at all? If not,then this is clearly a big part of what's causing all these bizzare situations that seem to be biased towards the user.

**bullybeef** · 08-04-2012 22:41

Originally Posted by Apos

This is a question that I always had since the introduction of this feature in FM11, do the AI teams have any penalties from changing tactics? Does the match preparation system affect them at all? If not,then this is clearly a big part of what's causing all these bizzare situations that seem to be biased towards the user.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there....never thought of that.

I must add though, not all the game is biased, sometimes I score 'jammy' goals, although it does occur in games were I've made my own luck (had lots of other chances that missed, hit the post etc). Sometimes it is like the ME is tormenting you, and I wouldn't put it past a programmer sticking these little annoyances in for their own amusement [only joking of course].

What else would we do if we couldn't have a good old moan; you wanna go and have at look at some RL LFC forums, boy does the team and manager get it when they lose.

**themadsheep2001** · 08-04-2012 22:56

Originally Posted by bullybeef

I think you've hit the nail on the head there....never thought of that.

I must add though, not all the game is biased, sometimes I score 'jammy' goals, although it does occur in games were I've made my own luck (had lots of other chances that missed, hit the post etc). Sometimes it is like the ME is tormenting you, and I wouldn't put it past a programmer sticking these little annoyances in for their own amusement [only joking of course].

What else would we do if we couldn't have a good old moan; you wanna go and have at look at some RL LFC forums, boy does the team and manager get it when they lose.

Yes the AI also have match prep. ( you can see it if you use FMRTE) so they would suffer similar penalities. Think it was pointed out on another thread that they didnt seem to be ulitising it as well as human players.

Though I dislike match prep entirely to be honest.

It may seem like there is bias, but the FACT is that is no bias in the ME, or in how the AI reacts you on the pitch, or your injuries in relation to AI injuries.

**wwfan** · 08-04-2012 23:33

Originally Posted by bullybeef

High CF - Low CF - Balanced CF for my Att/Creative players = The only visual difference was the amount of chances I create; the lower the CF, the fewer the chances, but quality chances are still missed.

High Tempo - Low Tempo - Balanced Tempo = A higher tempo seems to move the ball around swifter, a lower tempo seems to create fewer chances, but quality chances are still missed.

High Att Mentalities - Low Att Mentalities - Balanced Att Mentalities = Again the lower the Att Mentalities, the fewer chances I create, but quality chances are still missed.

Rare Time Wasting - High Time Wasting - Balanced Time Wasting = Fewer chances created with high time wasting, but quality chances are still missed.

I really crave a simplified solution to this problem. Having exhausted all possibilities, I find scoring the first goal absolutely vital, then I tend to experiment on improving my shots to goals ratio, with little consistency (I seem to score more half chances). Luckily I seem to have understood a decent defensive structure, but I'm afraid it's making the game very dull, and the lack of reward for some great attacking endeavour is highly frustrating.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Best advice I can give is the same as the advice I've already given. Stop fiddling around with individual sliders in the mistaken belief that they'll make a significant difference, sort your mentality structure out, and think about how the formation you are employing should create goals. As soon as you start thinking slider numbers, you are going into a world of pain. Think about how the formation you wish to employ should play. For example, a 4-2-4 needs to be direct and high tempo enough to feed its front players when they are in space whereas a 4-2-3-1 Deep should keep possession deep on the pitch and attack on the counter. That is the most basic thing to thing about.

**wwfan** · 08-04-2012 23:35

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

btw i'm using zone marking, could that be the problem? i'm using opposition instructions also for the most dangerous players, usually fast strikers.
currently playing a champs match and moved 1 MC to DM position and now it's worst, the DM completely ignores AMC players running their direcction and DC has to try cover up his mistakes and obviously leaves strikers alone. 2 goals conceeded because DM wouldn't mark AMC. meanwhile all opposition players were able to tackle Ronaldo and Neymar from behind. DR/DL NEVER tried to tackle the AMC even though they had no yeallow card and were running with the AMC until he gets 3 meters from the GK...

For Pete's sake! How on earth is a 4-1-1-4 formation going to work? Stop looking for gamey solutions and you might begin to find the answer.

**wwfan** · 08-04-2012 23:36

Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7

And anyway sure Teffera has played a lot but he has a high natural fitness attribute and is not injury prone, he was last injured for a small time of 3 weeks around 3 seasons back and played 37 of 38 games last year only missing one through suspension. He's one of the most injury free players ever for me.

Where this random long term injury pops up from FM only knows! There's too many players being injured in game and you already admit this so fair enough I say.

That you play a striker in 37 out of 38 games should be telling you something. Your players are getting injured because you are overplaying them / not rotating enough. If you are overtraining or playing players not match fit as well, then that will also add to your problems.

**wwfan** · 08-04-2012 23:43

Originally Posted by Apos

Most of the comments above pretty much sum a big part of my own grudges against the game.

Injuries are a bit too close together to be looked upon as an unfortunate occurense. And the fact that a stubbed finger is enough a reason to swap a player mid-match and then lose him for a couple weeks doesn't help either.

And then we have morale and dedication. I can understand that professional players are better for that,but how is it possible that every single lowlie team that has been on a run of 15+ loses,with players of abysmal morale and surely not professional players just happens to find their lust for football against the player's team out of nowhere? Every single one of them. And it's almost always someone "scoring their first goal of the season" or even "of their career" as well.

Deathspawn has given a few really accurate things that seem biased against the player,key word being "seem" here. Some of them might be,some of them not.

It doesn't have to be that the game is programmed to act like that,just that it happened to turn out like that in practice.

Like it's been said before,the AI seems to do everything close to spotless. Their marking,their crossing,everything seems perfect,whereas PC players seem to forget about what football is about.

And the "change your tactics" is a bit tiresome. It makes most of us feel like we're being mistaken for players that took a random tactic,put some players there and expected to win. Trust me,I've tried a lot of things,most of them in vain though.

The match preparation system doesn't help either. The game practically punishes us for trying new things,whereas the AI seems to be able to change tactics and perform well with them with ease.

This is a question that I always had since the introduction of this feature in FM11, do the AI teams have any penalties from changing tactics? Does the match preparation system affect them at all? If not,then this is clearly a big part of what's causing all these bizzare situations that seem to be biased towards the user.

AI mechanisms are exactly the same as user ones. The user has many advantages, being able to be far more creative in the use of shouts, more flexible in transfers, or be able to develop a unique playing style. However, users can also break things by moving beyond the mechanical limits that the AI works within. If the user does that, then weird events are likely to happen.

As the saying goes, "garbage in, garbage out!"

**Barside** · 08-04-2012 23:46

Originally Posted by wwfan

That you play a striker in 37 out of 38 games should be telling you something. Your players are getting injured because you are overplaying them / not rotating enough. If you are overtraining or playing players not match fit as well, then that will also add to your problems.

Have another read of what he said, the 37 game striker is the exception rather than the norm & he's already qualified why he has played all but 1 league (high natural fitness).

You're point about ensuring the fringe players are relatively fit is valid but not being 'match fit' does not excessively increase the risk of injury as it generally relates to mental fitness such as anticipation & timing, I will confidently say that the ME is not sophisticated enough to replicate the sort of injuries that carry an increased risk due to a lack of match practice.

**wwfan** · 08-04-2012 23:50

Originally Posted by Barside

Have another read of what he said, the 37 game striker is the exception rather than the norm & he's already qualified why he has played all but 1 league (high natural fitness).

You're point about ensuring the fringe players are relatively fit is valid but not being 'match fit' does not excessively increase the risk of injury as it generally relates to mental fitness such as anticipation & timing, I will confidently say that the ME is not sophisticated enough to replicate the sort of injuries that carry an increased risk due to a lack of match practice.

There's a reason why he suffers major injury streaks and I don't. From everything he's said, lack of rotation seems to be the most likely issue, although it might be further generated through a tactical style that requires players to work very hard and stretch for balls/tackles and/or a training regime that overworks them.

I'd agree that the nature of the actual injury is not sophisticated enough, but not that there are no mechanisms to reduce the likelihood of in-game injuries.

**Barside** · 09-04-2012 00:00

Thankfully like you I do not tend to suffer from frequent large scale injury problems, I'll get the occasional knock or strain/pull & at most I might have 4 or 5 players unavailable at any one time which is more than manageable. Maybe I'll try to do the opposite of what I usually do at some point in the future to see if there really is a correlation.

I might add that I do not think the injury/fitness model is anywhere near accurate enough & if anything there are not enough fitness problems, at this time of year I'd imagine that most squad's have a large number of players nursing minor injuries or niggles yet this is not replicated by FM & as for having most of your squad at 100% fitness unless officially injured that is & always has been a nonsense.

**wwfan** · 09-04-2012 00:09

Originally Posted by Barside

Thankfully like you I do not tend to suffer from frequent large scale injury problems, I'll get the occasional knock or strain/pull & at most I might have 4 or 5 players unavailable at any one time which is more than manageable. Maybe I'll try to do the opposite of what I usually do at some point in the future to see if there really is a correlation.

I might add that I do not think the injury/fitness model is anywhere near accurate enough & if anything there are not enough fitness problems, at this time of year I'd imagine that most squad's have a large number of players nursing minor injuries or niggles yet this is not replicated by FM & as for having most of your squad at 100% fitness unless officially injured that is & always has been a nonsense.

I believe that the overall numbers are lower than they should be and that in-match versus training injuries are incorrectly balanced, with too many of the former and too few of the latter. Saying that, the balance has got better in recent years, a trend I'd expect to continue. Would also agree that long term niggles should be included in the game.

I still don't think the condition element of the ME works well enough, with certain positions being over-penalised whereas others barely get a hit. It seems to be related to the speed at which forwards, wingers and attacking midfielders run, especially with the ball, which causes a major hit to condition. Perhaps users struggling with injuries rely too much on high speed dribbles. That would be consistent between the inability to score (far less likely to score after a player has touched a ball twice prior to shooting) and high injury counts (penalisation for RWB). If the user has lots of RFD/FWRs for front players as well, then the problem will be further accentuated.

**Barside** · 09-04-2012 00:14

Just for kicks you can also add the occasional injury not tallying up with what happened on the pitch, I've had a player break a rib after trapping a ball & passing it, the nearest other person to him was 10 yards away.

**wwfan** · 09-04-2012 00:27

Originally Posted by Barside

Just for kicks you can also add the occasional injury not tallying up with what happened on the pitch, I've had a player break a rib after trapping a ball & passing it, the nearest other person to him was 10 yards away.

I especially enjoy players playing on with what turns out to be a pulled hamstring.

**scott MUFC** · 09-04-2012 01:56

yes i know, yet come off for a bruise

**themadsheep2001** · 09-04-2012 01:59

Originally Posted by Barside

Just for kicks you can also add the occasional injury not tallying up with what happened on the pitch, I've had a player break a rib after trapping a ball & passing it, the nearest other person to him was 10 yards away.

That's a personal favourite of mine...

**Äktsjon Männ** · 09-04-2012 06:27

Yeah, one of mine recently suffered a strained neck while simply standing in the centre circle with no-one near him. The match report claimed it was a result of an aerial challenge yet the statistics showed him having 0 headers attempted. Go figure..

**bullybeef** · 09-04-2012 08:25

Has anyone ever noticed the 1-on-1 scenario, were the player is clean through on their GK, he sidesteps him to create an empty goal shooting angle, but then kicks it back towards the GK. Bizarre isn't the word.

**bullybeef** · 09-04-2012 08:46

Originally Posted by wwfan

Best advice I can give is the same as the advice I've already given. Stop fiddling around with individual sliders in the mistaken belief that they'll make a significant difference, sort your mentality structure out, and think about how the formation you are employing should create goals. As soon as you start thinking slider numbers, you are going into a world of pain. Think about how the formation you wish to employ should play. For example, a 4-2-4 needs to be direct and high tempo enough to feed its front players when they are in space whereas a 4-2-3-1 Deep should keep possession deep on the pitch and attack on the counter. That is the most basic thing to thing about.

Thanks for the reply, wwfan, it is appreciated. I can imagine it is frustrating for you guys when you try to advise and it seems we are set in our ways so much we don't take it.

As you may recall, I do play a deep, defensive 42121 system (2 def mids (1 Achman, 1DLPM,); 1 CM (APM); 2 AIF; 1 GP). Are you saying to stick with the pre-set default mental settings for my CA tactic, rather than manually set them? And as much as I have tried toggling CA to on, I don't seem to notice if it makes any difference other than I keep the ball better. Would you suggest beginning the game with CA ticked, and maybe un-toggle it once I am winning to maybe keep the ball better?

Cheers!

**Apos** · 09-04-2012 09:50

Originally Posted by themadsheep2001

Yes the AI also have match prep. ( you can see it if you use FMRTE) so they would suffer similar penalities. Think it was pointed out on another thread that they didnt seem to be ulitising it as well as human players.

Though I dislike match prep entirely to be honest.

It may seem like there is bias, but the FACT is that is no bias in the ME, or in how the AI reacts you on the pitch, or your injuries in relation to AI injuries.

You can see it where? On the team data? Because if it is on the team then it means absolutely nothing and the AI doesn't suffer from match preparation.

Why? Because match preparation has been proven plenty of time to be tied with the manager and not the team. Don't believe me? Do this: Take a team and pick a tactic,anything, then holiday 3-4 months and return(have the ass.manager to use that tactic). Retire,add new manager and try getting the players to play the exact same tactic,with zero changes.Bizzare how they will have forgot everything within a single day,right?

In the meantime, manager changes don't affect AI teams as much. Their tactics won't be crap on their first games after a new manager signing as long as the players are good,so it is unlikely that AI is affected at all by match preparation.

Even their motivation is dubious. Like I said on my previous reply,I find it extremelly hard to believe that every team of the league that has abysmal morale,bad players and a streak of 10 loses in a row somehow got to find their lust for football against the very same team every single season. It doesn't matter of what team it is anymore really,if I see a streak of LLLLLL I know what's my next game's outcome will be. Their first W of the season.

**themadsheep2001** · 09-04-2012 12:53

Originally Posted by Apos

You can see it where? On the team data? Because if it is on the team then it means absolutely nothing and the AI doesn't suffer from match preparation.

Why? Because match preparation has been proven plenty of time to be tied with the manager and not the team. Don't believe me? Do this: Take a team and pick a tactic,anything, then holiday 3-4 months and return(have the ass.manager to use that tactic). Retire,add new manager and try getting the players to play the exact same tactic,with zero changes.Bizzare how they will have forgot everything within a single day,right?

In the meantime, manager changes don't affect AI teams as much. Their tactics won't be crap on their first games after a new manager signing as long as the players are good,so it is unlikely that AI is affected at all by match preparation.

Even their motivation is dubious. Like I said on my previous reply,I find it extremelly hard to believe that every team of the league that has abysmal morale,bad players and a streak of 10 loses in a row somehow got to find their lust for football against the very same team every single season. It doesn't matter of what team it is anymore really,if I see a streak of LLLLLL I know what's my next game's outcome will be. Their first W of the season.

Really? proven where? The AI do use from match prep, you should ask Riz of SI. And how do you know that their tactic wont be as good, maybe they are just better at compensating that you? But there isn't much point going on with this, I've tried to give you advice before, as did several others, even though you decided to be pretty rude to people. But it seems its wasted. You've already decided that game is is stacked against you (which isnt true), and anyone who says otherwise (even those who actually work on the game) is lying.

Everything the AI can do, you can do better.

If I see a streak of LLLL coming, i know what the outcome its, usually a 4-0 win for me.

**milnerpoint** · 09-04-2012 12:56

Originally Posted by themadsheep2001

Really? proven where? The AI do suffer from match prep, you should ask Riz of SI. And how do you know that their tactic wont be as good, maybe they are just better at compensating that you? But there isn't much point going on with this, I've tried to give you advice before, as did several others, even though you decided to be pretty rude to people. But it seems its wasted. You've already decided that game is is stacked against you (which isnt true), and anyone who says otherwise (even those who actually work on the game) is lying.

Everything the AI can do, you can do better.

If I see a streak of LLLL coming, i know what the outcome its, usually a 4-0 win for me.

Well said that man.

**themadsheep2001** · 09-04-2012 13:22

Originally Posted by milnerpoint

Well said that man.

There are plenty of flaws in FM12, some have been there far too long, but some of the misinformation that gets spun out is actually ridiculous. I don't think some of the inherent flaws in the ME and lack of feedback help combat this, but its the same people being told over and over. They cant seem to accept they might not be as good as they think, and that their preconceptions are holding them back. More important, it sidetracks the debate about the real issues in the game, such as the limitation of the AI, where the TC can be expanded, the areas the new ME fix/focus on.

**Apos** · 09-04-2012 13:28

Originally Posted by themadsheep2001

Really? proven where? The AI do suffer from match prep, you should ask Riz of SI. And how do you know that their tactic wont be as good, maybe they are just better at compensating that you? But there isn't much point going on with this, I've tried to give you advice before, as did several others, even though you decided to be pretty rude to people. But it seems its wasted. You've already decided that game is is stacked against you (which isnt true), and anyone who says otherwise (even those who actually work on the game) is lying.

Everything the AI can do, you can do better.

If I see a streak of LLLL coming, i know what the outcome its, usually a 4-0 win for me.

Ye,if you are managing milan or barca maybe. Try some other team and leagues and you might see some different results.

And it seems you fail at reading as well,because I didn't say that the game is stacked against me. I said it "seems", want me to expand on that word so that you understand it better?

If the AI suffers from match prep then how can they change so many tactics throughtout matches without any effect on their performance? Last time I checked there is a limit of 3 tactics on preparation,yet they can change from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1,then 4-2-4,and then whatever and get away with it with no performance penalty? And I'm talking about the same penalty the player has when doing something like that,aka absolutely ******** football from their players.

And unless you can prove otherwise yourself,there is not much truth in your words either. There is no feedback provided that proves that the AI is affected by the same parameters as the player. And ask Riz of SI? You mean ask the same people that said that the greek and turkish leagues were fixed in 12.2 even though absolutely nothing was taken care of? Erm...no thanks,I prefer to trust what I see myself and complaints of other players that have the same experiences as mine.

"Everything the AI can do,you can do better"

Ok then,I'd like to see you take over a squad of bad players,none of them professional,all of them on abysmall morale,on a streak of 10+ loses, and win against a superior team that has suberb morale and much better players on every single stats,technical,physical and mental.

And did I mention that their managers have a motivating of 8-10 most of the time? And yet they manage to motivate their players to do the impossible every time? To put it bluntly: "Slim ******* chances!"

I've tried all the advice that was given to me,from you and everyone else. The outcome is the same, outcomes that seem unbelievable, streaks that can't be stopped for anything (wasn't this "supposedly" fixed in 12.2 as well? Go figure!) and generally stupid football from my players. The only thing that was fixed was my injuries for 2 seasons. But that's just like I said before. You either have no injuries or end up renting a hospital floor just for your squad. Start of the next season and 4 injuries on the first friendly. 2 on the second. One of them being 9 months long.

**milnerpoint** · 09-04-2012 13:33

Originally Posted by themadsheep2001

There are plenty of flaws in FM12, some have been there far too long, but some of the misinformation that gets spun out is actually ridiculous. I don't think some of the inherent flaws in the ME and lack of feedback help combat this, but its the same people being told over and over. They cant seem to accept they might not be as good as they think, and that their preconceptions are holding them back. More important, it sidetracks the debate about the real issues in the game, such as the limitation of the AI, where the TC can be expanded, the areas the new ME fix/focus on.

Again spot on. The ME and game in general has its problems and weaknesses buts its not a disaster zone like it gets made out to be. I dont frequent any other FM forums but the biggest issue i see every day is as you say, the amount of mis-information, usually spread in threads like this, usually by the same 10-15 posters. They drop into every thread you can find making basically the same post each time and point blank refuse to accept it any other way, and your right it takes the focus away from the actual issues, like the lack of ingame feedback on your tactics and such like.

**themadsheep2001** · 09-04-2012 13:39

Originally Posted by Apos

Ye,if you are managing milan or barca maybe. Try some other team and leagues and you might see some different results.

And it seems you fail at reading as well,because I didn't say that the game is stacked against me. I said it "seems", want me to expand on that word so that you understand it better?

If the AI suffers from match prep then how can they change so many tactics throughtout matches without any effect on their performance? Last time I checked there is a limit of 3 tactics on preparation,yet they can change from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1,then 4-2-4,and then whatever and get away with it with no performance penalty? And I'm talking about the same penalty the player has when doing something like that,aka absolutely ******** football from their players.

And unless you can prove otherwise yourself,there is not much truth in your words either. There is no feedback provided that proves that the AI is affected by the same parameters as the player. And ask Riz of SI? You mean ask the same people that said that the greek and turkish leagues were fixed in 12.2 even though absolutely nothing was taken care of? Erm...no thanks,I prefer to trust what I see myself and complaints of other players that have the same experiences as mine.

"Everything the AI can do,you can do better"

Ok then,I'd like to see you take over a squad of bad players,none of them professional,all of them on abysmall morale,on a streak of 10+ loses, and win against a superior team that has suberb morale and much better players on every single stats,technical,physical and mental.

And did I mention that their managers have a motivating of 8-10 most of the time? And yet they manage to motivate their players to do the impossible every time? To put it bluntly: "Slim ******* chances!"

I've tried all the advice that was given to me,from you and everyone else. The outcome is the same, outcomes that seem unbelievable, streaks that can't be stopped for anything (wasn't this "supposedly" fixed in 12.2 as well? Go figure!) and generally stupid football from my players. The only thing that was fixed was my injuries for 2 seasons. But that's just like I said before. You either have no injuries or end up renting a hospital floor just for your squad. Start of the next season and 4 injuries on the first friendly. 2 on the second. One of them being 9 months long.

You've just proved my point. Both with the insults and with your attitude, as i said to bullybeef, it may seem like it's stacked against you, but it isn't. You think you somehow know the game better than the creators and the people who work there. I've played from United, to Alaves, to Real Union, to Maccelsfield, to Hayes and Yeading, and dozens of teams in between. Some saves a harder than others, but you are far better equipped than AI. Which is why I can take Doncaster to the CL in 6 seasons and the AI can't. Which is why I can do a backs to the wall job as Torquay against Man City (depsite having lost my previous 4 games in a row) and win 2-0.

We play the same game, if you are getting humped by poor morale sides constantly, you're doing something/somethings wrong.

Trying to create a strawman argument that because an issue wasnt dealt everything SI say is wrong doesn't wash. If you put as much work into trying to take in what people say and dropping your misconceptions as you did making jibes at people who have done nothing but try to help you, you might be less frustrated.

**bullybeef** · 09-04-2012 13:41

Can someone pls explain how the goal conversion rate works? If the CCC conversion is 1 in 3 (and I understand now that some CCC are exaggerated on the game), could this explain why some CCC are missed, to keep within this rule?

If I recall correctly, I score more half chances than CCC.

I just wanted to question about the AI tactics, each individual AI manager has a specific tactical preference on their profile, yet they are adept at numerous tactics. Could this also be a questionable advantage?

**Apos** · 09-04-2012 13:41

Originally Posted by milnerpoint

Again spot on. The ME and game in general has its problems and weaknesses buts its not a disaster zone like it gets made out to be. I dont frequent any other FM forums but the biggest issue i see every day is as you say, the amount of mis-information, usually spread in threads like this, usually by the same 10-15 posters. They drop into every thread you can find making basically the same post each time and point blank refuse to accept it any other way, and your right it takes the focus away from the actual issues, like the lack of ingame feedback on your tactics and such like.

Lack of feedback is the cause of both sides. And until we actually get that feedback,neither side is correct. Sorry to burst your bubble of being the good and saint forum member. It's not the same 10-15 posters either, I'm the only poster pretty much that has a continuous grudge with the game,pretty much because nothing changes no matter what I try. And that includes advices from anyone here. But I guess people are too cocky of themselves,aren't they? How could my game not improve with their advices,right?

If "it's my tactics", like the saying goes around these parts by what I call fan-boys, I'll never know thanks to no feedback.

If I'm right though and those who defend the game just happen to be lucky on the right times, once again we can't tell, thanks to close to no feedback.

The game is about "here's a random outcome,either you like it or not". The information around that is minimal and also hard to approach as well. (analysis panel,etc) And even if someone checks the analysis panel,the information is still not enough to make a good decision on what to fix, chances are the player might end up making things worse as well.

**themadsheep2001** · 09-04-2012 13:51

Originally Posted by bullybeef

Can someone pls explain how the goal conversion rate works? If the CCC conversion is 1 in 3 (and I understand now that some CCC are exaggerated on the game), could this explain why some CCC are missed, to keep within this rule?

If I recall correctly, I score more half chances than CCC.

Not to "keep within the rule" as such, but simply based on the all the variables in the game, that its usually 1 in 3. You could easily take all 3 chances, or none.

But I would write off half the "CCC" i create as not being CCCs. Its a small issue but one with big ramifications if people are using it as a guide to how well their play is going.

If you create 10 CCC, you would hope (all things being equal) to put away 3-4 of them. But the problem is 4-5 of this may not actually be CCC's ( this is averaging for the sake of the argument, of course they could all be actual CCC's or they could be badly interpreted ones). Now if you put away one or none from 10, you're going to be livid as a manager. Especially if you feel its happening toooften ( and the AI hits a 25 yarder).

**milnerpoint** · 09-04-2012 14:10

Originally Posted by Apos

Lack of feedback is the cause of both sides. And until we actually get that feedback,neither side is correct. Sorry to burst your bubble of being the good and saint forum member. It's not the same 10-15 posters either, I'm the only poster pretty much that has a continuous grudge with the game,pretty much because nothing changes no matter what I try. And that includes advices from anyone here. But I guess people are too cocky of themselves,aren't they? How could my game not improve with their advices,right?

If "it's my tactics", like the saying goes around these parts by what I call fan-boys, I'll never know thanks to no feedback.

If I'm right though and those who defend the game just happen to be lucky on the right times, once again we can't tell, thanks to close to no feedback.

The game is about "here's a random outcome,either you like it or not". The information around that is minimal and also hard to approach as well. (analysis panel,etc) And even if someone checks the analysis panel,the information is still not enough to make a good decision on what to fix, chances are the player might end up making things worse as well.

Point proven twice with your post. No one in here is being cocky, especially not anyone who has tried to help, and your not the only poster who does what i described, not at all, but until you accept you are doing something wrong, no one will ever be able to help you.

I frequent other forums, one a music forum with a fantastic FM thread going, these guys can accept when they are wrong and are open to advice, even if the game is letting them down slightly, they dont rant on and on about every minor detail, and guess what, they love the game. One of FM's biggest problems is the mis-information that comes out from the GD forum.

**milnerpoint** · 09-04-2012 14:12

Originally Posted by bullybeef

Can someone pls explain how the goal conversion rate works? If the CCC conversion is 1 in 3 (and I understand now that some CCC are exaggerated on the game), could this explain why some CCC are missed, to keep within this rule?

If I recall correctly, I score more half chances than CCC.

I just wanted to question about the AI tactics, each individual AI manager has a specific tactical preference on their profile, yet they are adept at numerous tactics. Could this also be a questionable advantage?

There isnt really a rule as such because until recently no body kept a record of CCC's because they are too subjective and can depend on the player as much as the chance. If your scoring around half your doing well but i wouldnt read too much into them, you can win without creating any or lose creating 50.

**Äktsjon Männ** · 09-04-2012 14:40

Originally Posted by Apos

If "it's my tactics", like the saying goes around these parts by what I call fan-boys, I'll never know thanks to no feedback.

No, you'll never know because you refuse to accept it. I don't suffer from the problems you seem to. And I've played FM 2012 as Enköpings SK, Hannover 96, Chelsea, Notts County and now Truro City over three different save games adding up to around 20 seasons so I doubt it's anything to do with the teams I choose.

There's plenty wrong with the ME in its current state. But there's no such area in the game where the AI gets an advantage over a clued up human manager. If you want to stop getting beat by teams on long losing runs and be more efficient yourself then give people details about your tactics, upload pkms and there will be plenty of people willing to help you. If you stop your ranting and insulting people of course.

**milnerpoint** · 09-04-2012 14:47

In this version i have played as Aberdeen, a poor team in a poor league, so i dont listen to any of this nonsense that the people who are not struggling are playing with the worlds best teams and players and i dont experience the problems being described in this thread.

**Äktsjon Männ** · 09-04-2012 15:30

My last match being a case in point. Form of my opponent:

Match stats:

By no means an efficient shooting night for my team really. But the opponent shot 6 times so by that 'every shot goes in' theory must have scored 6 right? Or at least once? Well no. The result:

Couldn't have been more comfortable. And that's the norm, not an exception. Could have gone for more if I felt like it but I like to keep things tight throughout and not take unnecessary risks.

Now either I'm playing a different game to those that lose every game against an opponent on poor form - or it's something they're doing that's causing this to happen.

**milnerpoint** · 09-04-2012 15:42

Exactly! Anyway moral is only a part of the overall picture!! Always has and always will be.

Last night i was playing the end of a season, lost my last 5 league games and lost the league on the last day of the season to Celtic, moral was all on very poor or below, had the champs league final to look forward to as well, so i changed my approach for the game to suit how my team was playing and feeling, tightened things up a bit and changed a few bits and pieces to make the team solid first and foremost and able to score second, encouraged the players a bit, got through the first half 0-0, moral went up a bit because we had played well, so gave them a bit of praise and a bit more attacking freedom and won the game 2-0 despite both strikers playing without confidence for the first 60 minutes, but because my team made 4 very very good chances and kept things tight at the back we won the game, was it luck or because of the changes i made? I know which one ill go with.

**Apos** · 09-04-2012 17:46

Originally Posted by milnerpoint

Point proven twice with your post. No one in here is being cocky, especially not anyone who has tried to help, and your not the only poster who does what i described, not at all, but until you accept you are doing something wrong, no one will ever be able to help you.

I frequent other forums, one a music forum with a fantastic FM thread going, these guys can accept when they are wrong and are open to advice, even if the game is letting them down slightly, they dont rant on and on about every minor detail, and guess what, they love the game. One of FM's biggest problems is the mis-information that comes out from the GD forum.

Yes,indeed,you have proven twice that these forums are divived with blind fan boys and unsatisfied customers.

If you were better at reading you'd notice that I did not claim that I do everything correct.I have really often admit that I'm doing something wrong and I'm asking for advice. Guess what,that advice doesn't help either. The same crap keeps happening,I don't care if it happens to you or not,it happens to me and that's what I care about. You know,enjoying the game,like for instance...before FM11 appeared.

But since you are so eager to defend your "perfect game" , then so be it. You keep supporting it,I won't. I already feel robbed for 2 years in a row and a game that is being developed according to the standards similar to yours is not a game I will support. Keep the crap defence,the mass of injuries and the players that are ready to collapse mentally as soon as a butterfly dies next to them to yourself,I'm full.

**milnerpoint** · 09-04-2012 17:54

Originally Posted by Apos

Yes,indeed,you have proven twice that these forums are divived with blind fan boys and unsatisfied customers.

If you were better at reading you'd notice that I did not claim that I do everything correct.I have really often admit that I'm doing something wrong and I'm asking for advice. Guess what,that advice doesn't help either. The same crap keeps happening,I don't care if it happens to you or not,it happens to me and that's what I care about. You know,enjoying the game,like for instance...before FM11 appeared.

But since you are so eager to defend your "perfect game" , then so be it. You keep supporting it,I won't. I already feel robbed for 2 years in a row and a game that is being developed according to the standards similar to yours is not a game I will support. Keep the crap defence,the mass of injuries and the players that are ready to collapse mentally as soon as a butterfly dies next to them to yourself,I'm full.

Its ironic you say the two bits in bold and yet further up the page i said,

The ME and game in general has its problems and weaknesses

But since you have said your done, then there is no point in anyone offering any more advice to you, i dont make any standards for SI in anyway, i buy, play and enjoy a game, nothing more.

Hopefully you find a game that ties more into what you enjoy and you can leave us to enjoy FM.

**deathspawn666** · 09-04-2012 18:31

Originally Posted by wwfan

For Pete's sake! How on earth is a 4-1-1-4 formation going to work? Stop looking for gamey solutions and you might begin to find the answer.

why use it? because works well againt Barcelona the best team in the game, need more reasons? so it works against big teams, might not work against small however why do players from big teams miss so many chances against smaller teams? why should we play defensive when most teams in RL play offensive against small teams and only a small percentage are able to score on CA while on FM12 all small teams are good at it? seems to me SI ain't watching football.
and as for 4-2-4 (two MCs) being too risky, well i don't see that problem when AI goes with it and their MCs are everywhere in the field...i guess they must all have 20 pace and 20 speed...
and from what i see in FM the logic is: score 2 goals before players go ****** and you get 1 goal inside your net from a super AI play or player stupid mistake

**achilles-the-victorious** · 09-04-2012 18:47

OK, so a formation works against Barca. Conclusion: use it against Barca!

Where you are deciding that its a good formation for small teams that play deep, and counter you, I don't know. If it beats Barca, use it against Barca! Come up with something different for the smaller teams! A more patient approach, another player in midfield... You have to remember that just because players get up for a big game it doesn't mean they will feel the same way about facing Real Zaragoza! Once you realize you can score goals using a counterattacking mentality, standard mentality, AND Control mentality, not just attacking or overload it can make a BIG difference.

**deathspawn666** · 09-04-2012 18:57

Originally Posted by achilles-the-victorious

OK, so a formation works against Barca. Conclusion: use it against Barca!

Where you are deciding that its a good formation for small teams that play deep, and counter you, I don't know. If it beats Barca, use it against Barca! Come up with something different for the smaller teams! A more patient approach, another player in midfield... You have to remember that just because players get up for a big game it doesn't mean they will feel the same way about facing Real Zaragoza! Once you realize you can score goals using a counterattacking mentality, standard mentality, AND Control mentality, not just attacking or overload it can make a BIG difference.

and how many big teams do you see in RL not playing offensive football against small teams? how many small teams succeed winning in CA compared to those who don't? wanna know what happens when i use a defensive approach against small teams? strikers still go ****** on 1 vs 1 and AI still manages to score from a freekick or a corner because AI super freekick player can score from 1/4 of the field but willian,ronaldo,xabi alonso,douglas costas can't or because shako or hummels just won't mark their player because they aren't giving a **** about the match. you can go all defensive you want but if players aren't giving a **** about the match you won't win unless you get lucky.
and how many tactics do teams play through a season? i see AI constantly changing then through the season depending on the match but when i go watch my league RL i see teams using 1 or 2 tactics. if FM12 is a simulator then start going by the basics and not start with real numbers on an unreal engine.
btw funny thing i found in ME, AI can have 1 total shot and have 0 shots on target and 0 shot not on target. clear example on how number are made up on ME.
everytime i check a big team in RL they play 4-4-2 with 1 MC as defensive and 1 as support/attacking, 4-1-3-2 with 1 MC on defensive duty and 3 AM, 2 strikers and i don't see them having problems against small teams. maybe they have super players, or super coaches, or maybe they are repeating the game until they win, or maybe they're super psychologists that always find the perfect team talk

**Cougar2010** · 09-04-2012 19:50

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

why use it? because works well againt Barcelona the best team in the game, need more reasons? so it works against big teams, might not work against small however why do players from big teams miss so many chances against smaller teams? why should we play defensive when most teams in RL play offensive against small teams and only a small percentage are able to score on CA while on FM12 all small teams are good at it? seems to me SI ain't watching football.
and as for 4-2-4 (two MCs) being too risky, well i don't see that problem when AI goes with it and their MCs are everywhere in the field...i guess they must all have 20 pace and 20 speed...
and from what i see in FM the logic is: score 2 goals before players go ****** and you get 1 goal inside your net from a super AI play or player stupid mistake

The problem is no team in the world uses that formation in real life.

So it works in FM in specific circumstances but as wwfan has pointed out its a "gamey" solution - You are basically trying to exploit the ME which is why you are having problems in other matches. If you concentrated your efforts into building solid footballing tactics that we see in real life you would get less random results from the FM ME and be happier as a result.

**achilles-the-victorious** · 09-04-2012 20:06

What team in the WORLD hasn't had trouble with small teams in the last year? Inter lost against Novara, Barcelona have dropped points many times, Man U lost against Blackburn (guess what, the keeper played a shocker). Thats real life from what I have seen. Yeah, the big teams win almost 70% of those games, but I think you are somehow forgetting those other 30%. Like I have said before, I play FM11, haven't tried FM12 because FM11 is great and I love it, and I have seen games NOT improve year over year, it happens, so when you find a good, well-balanced, FUN game, you stick with it, IMO.

**deathspawn666** · 09-04-2012 20:27

Originally Posted by achilles-the-victorious

What team in the WORLD hasn't had trouble with small teams in the last year? Inter lost against Novara, Barcelona have dropped points many times, Man U lost against Blackburn (guess what, the keeper played a shocker). Thats real life from what I have seen. Yeah, the big teams win almost 70% of those games, but I think you are somehow forgetting those other 30%. Like I have said before, I play FM11, haven't tried FM12 because FM11 is great and I love it, and I have seen games NOT improve year over year, it happens, so when you find a good, well-balanced, FUN game, you stick with it, IMO.

and where did i say big teams never loose against small ones?? i pretty much said what you did: big teams vs small teams usually big team wins. however in FM12 it's the opposite, you can easily get nailed by a small team playing in CA if you don't play defensive. however those teams lost those 30%, as you said, because they didn't go defensive. try not going defensive against small team in FM and watch that 30% go to 70%...

**deathspawn666** · 09-04-2012 20:31

Originally Posted by Cougar2010

The problem is no team in the world uses that formation in real life.

So it works in FM in specific circumstances but as wwfan has pointed out its a "gamey" solution - You are basically trying to exploit the ME which is why you are having problems in other matches. If you concentrated your efforts into building solid footballing tactics that we see in real life you would get less random results from the FM ME and be happier as a result.

so let me get this straight, if i think like real life football i can win against small teams but have hard time against big teams/rivals, if i think in FM ME i can win big teams/rivals but have hard time against small teams? sounds like FM is getting random...
it's funny to see ppl saying: it's like in real life for 1 situation and then on another situation ppl say it's just a game with flaws and therefore can't be like RL

**themadsheep2001** · 09-04-2012 20:34

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

and where did i say big teams never loose against small ones?? i pretty much said what you did: big teams vs small teams usually big team wins. however in FM12 it's the opposite, you can easily get nailed by a small team playing in CA if you don't play defensive. however those teams lost those 30%, as you said, because they didn't go defensive. try not going defensive against small team in FM and watch that 30% go to 70%...

I dont go "defensive" against any small teams, don't use counter attacking either, that 30% loss rate is more like 5%. There has been a wealth of advice in this thread and others. It isn't the opposite in FM12 and its very much achievable.

**themadsheep2001** · 09-04-2012 20:37

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

so let me get this straight, if i think like real life football i can win against small teams but have hard time against big teams/rivals, if i think in FM ME i can win big teams/rivals but have hard time against small teams? sounds like FM is getting random...
it's funny to see ppl saying: it's like in real life for 1 situation and then on another situation ppl say it's just a game with flaws and therefore can't be like RL

No, if you think logically and set up with a coherent strategy, and ready to change an approach if needed, you can consistently beat both small and big teams. Not random, but logical. But that doesnt mean you will never lose ever. Neither football or FM works like that

**bullybeef** · 09-04-2012 21:01

Originally Posted by themadsheep2001

Not to "keep within the rule" as such, but simply based on the all the variables in the game, that its usually 1 in 3. You could easily take all 3 chances, or none.

But I would write off half the "CCC" i create as not being CCCs. Its a small issue but one with big ramifications if people are using it as a guide to how well their play is going.

If you create 10 CCC, you would hope (all things being equal) to put away 3-4 of them. But the problem is 4-5 of this may not actually be CCC's ( this is averaging for the sake of the argument, of course they could all be actual CCC's or they could be badly interpreted ones). Now if you put away one or none from 10, you're going to be livid as a manager. Especially if you feel its happening toooften ( and the AI hits a 25 yarder).

Thanks for the explanation, themadsheep2001, it maybe a case that SI need to think about how "CCC" are registered. Even since FM11 I took a CCC as red and was naturally disappointed and confused why I kept missing so many.

I just had an interesting home game against mid table opposition. I have been winning lately, but not emphatically, so I decided to undo some manual individual player instructions back to default, and I had eight SOT and eight "CCC", and scored 3 goals! Before you explained the how to understand "CCC", I would have been left scratching my head why I couldn't score more, even after a reasonably decent home win.

It is difficult not to feel sympathy for the disillusioned, because I know how much time and effort I can put into trying to understand the game. Maybe we're just not meant to understand everything about it. I would be fascinated to have a long term FM gamer, whom knows the game inside and out, to sit down with me and show me exactly what they mean when they explain things.

I think for the time being, it just comes back to how much you can personally accept out of the game, especially when you lose, draw after dominating, or miss umpteen chances, and have no idea what you did wrong. Hopefully, SI can help the ignorant (like myself) to better understand future versions of the game with better improved tactical advice from coaching staff etc. Personally I thought the tactical advice from FM11 was more informed, albeit not entirely accurate. Pre-match advice on FM12 tends to come across incredibly vague now.

**deathspawn666** · 09-04-2012 21:01

Originally Posted by themadsheep2001

I dont go "defensive" against any small teams, don't use counter attacking either, that 30% loss rate is more like 5%. There has been a wealth of advice in this thread and others. It isn't the opposite in FM12 and its very much achievable.

i still haven't seen any tactical advice to make Casillas win 1 vs 1 against small team players meanwhile Ronaldo, Benzema, Higuain and Neymar are missing them...

**Cougar2010** · 09-04-2012 21:22

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

so let me get this straight, if i think like real life football i can win against small teams but have hard time against big teams/rivals, if i think in FM ME i can win big teams/rivals but have hard time against small teams? sounds like FM is getting random...
it's funny to see ppl saying: it's like in real life for 1 situation and then on another situation ppl say it's just a game with flaws and therefore can't be like RL

How is that in any way random?

You would expect to do well against smaller teams and you would expect a tougher match against bigger teams in real life.

Its really very simple you can continue trying to beat the "coding", achieving frustrating results and whining on the forums about it or you can do some reading in the tactics forum, apply the knowledge you gain and achieve less random results.

Which would you prefer to do?

**themadsheep2001** · 09-04-2012 21:25

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

i still haven't seen any tactical advice to make Casillas win 1 vs 1 against small team players meanwhile Ronaldo, Benzema, Higuain and Neymar are missing them...

Start by throwing out your 4-2-4/4-1-1-4 formation. wwfan has just been pointing out the flaws in it. Start by creating something that doesnt leave your defence badly exposed half time time.

re strikers, use the advice wwfan gave arsenalfan7:

Detail your thoughts on how you should be creating chances.

Who should the main goalscorers be?
How are you getting the ball to them?
Where is the support coming from?
How are you trying to open space?
Are you playing patiently or driving forward at tempo?

Beyond that there are plenty of much more detailed pieces of help in the tactical section. You'll soon find your strikers scoring and your keeper hard to beat on the few chances you have to deal with.

**deathspawn666** · 09-04-2012 21:40

Originally Posted by themadsheep2001

Start by throwing out your 4-2-4/4-1-1-4 formation. wwfan has just been pointing out the flaws in it. Start by creating something that doesnt leave your defence badly exposed half time time.

re strikers, use the advice wwfan gave arsenalfan7:

Detail your thoughts on how you should be creating chances.

Who should the main goalscorers be?
How are you getting the ball to them?
Where is the support coming from?
How are you trying to open space?
Are you playing patiently or driving forward at tempo?

Beyond that there are plenty of much more detailed pieces of help in the tactical section. You'll soon find your strikers scoring and your keeper hard to beat on the few chances you have to deal with.

wwfan advised me on how not to conceed goals. my tactic makes me sometimes loose against small team because of CA but my attackers are still creating the same amount of goal chances but are wasting them, specially 1 vs 1. if i follow the posters advice then i would probably not be loosing but still would not score because strikers went on dumb mode and can't score 1 vs 1. so in best case i would be drawing and not loosing which still gives the feeling that i was not supposed to win the match... ppl can give all the advices they won't but no tactic will sort out the % that AI small teams scores on 1vs1 and the % our strikers score in 1vs1 against small teams. and in case some ppl start saying something about pressure on 1vs1, when i say 1vs1 i mean strikers in middle of penalty area against GK with no defenders near and with good morale...

**themadsheep2001** · 09-04-2012 21:50

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

wwfan advised me on how not to conceed goals. my tactic makes me sometimes loose against small team because of CA but my attackers are still creating the same amount of goal chances but are wasting them, specially 1 vs 1. if i follow the posters advice then i would probably not be loosing but still would not score because strikers went on dumb mode and can't score 1 vs 1. so in best case i would be drawing and not loosing which still gives the feeling that i was not supposed to win the match... ppl can give all the advices they won't but no tactic will sort out the % that AI small teams scores on 1vs1 and the % our strikers score in 1vs1 against small teams. and in case some ppl start saying something about pressure on 1vs1, when i say 1vs1 i mean strikers in middle of penalty area against GK with no defenders near and with good morale...

It would. The game isnt biased, the ME isnt biased. You can be just as lethal, in fact more lethal, than the AI. My side has the best conversion rate of any team in the top 5 leagues and by some way. I dont get humped by small teams, they dont score with their only/first attack. I do score with my first attack.

I just showed a small piece about your strikers. There is far more than that floating around.

Anything the AI can do, we can do better. Until you accept the above you will always struggle.

The information and help is there. Use it or don't use it, at the end of the day we all have the same game, and the people giving advice are not having the problems you are having. Upto you to use that advice or keep struggling. Either way, I'm off for a drink.

**milnerpoint** · 09-04-2012 22:49

I think you've earned a big one! hahaha

**wwfan** · 09-04-2012 22:49

Originally Posted by bullybeef

Thanks for the reply, wwfan, it is appreciated. I can imagine it is frustrating for you guys when you try to advise and it seems we are set in our ways so much we don't take it.

As you may recall, I do play a deep, defensive 42121 system (2 def mids (1 Achman, 1DLPM,); 1 CM (APM); 2 AIF; 1 GP). Are you saying to stick with the pre-set default mental settings for my CA tactic, rather than manually set them? And as much as I have tried toggling CA to on, I don't seem to notice if it makes any difference other than I keep the ball better. Would you suggest beginning the game with CA ticked, and maybe un-toggle it once I am winning to maybe keep the ball better?

Cheers!

I'd advise you use a TC mentality structure as I think your manual mentality tweaks are the main cause of your problems. As for CA, I'd also leave that on default.

**wwfan** · 09-04-2012 23:00

Originally Posted by Apos

If the AI suffers from match prep then how can they change so many tactics throughtout matches without any effect on their performance? Last time I checked there is a limit of 3 tactics on preparation,yet they can change from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1,then 4-2-4,and then whatever and get away with it with no performance penalty? And I'm talking about the same penalty the player has when doing something like that,aka absolutely ******** football from their players.

They don't. I've rarely seen the current AI shift tactical shape more than once in a match. The commentary tells you it is happening a lot, but that is a bug in the commentary (perhaps overkill on letting the user manager know that the AI has changed shape). In previous FMs, I'd agree that the AI did change formations too often and too easily, but not any more.

If "it's my tactics", like the saying goes around these parts by what I call fan-boys, I'll never know thanks to no feedback.

If I'm right though and those who defend the game just happen to be lucky on the right times, once again we can't tell, thanks to close to no feedback.

You are just being ridiculous here. If you constantly do well or badly, there's a reason for it. Likewise, if you suffer random results, there's a reason for that as well. I might even agree that the in-game feedback could be better if you could accept that you might be doing something wrong, even after trying to incorporate the advice you've been given.

**wwfan** · 09-04-2012 23:02

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

so let me get this straight, if i think like real life football i can win against small teams but have hard time against big teams/rivals, if i think in FM ME i can win big teams/rivals but have hard time against small teams? sounds like FM is getting random...
it's funny to see ppl saying: it's like in real life for 1 situation and then on another situation ppl say it's just a game with flaws and therefore can't be like RL

How would teams in real life adapt their play against stronger and weaker teams? How might you translate that into the FM tactical module?

If you haven't even started to think this through, then it is no surprise your results are relatively random.

**Karnage94** · 09-04-2012 23:19

I'll just chip in here with a recent personal experience of mine. I am playing as Tenerife and I've brought the club from Segunda Division B1 to the top flight with back to back promotions. I've spent two full seasons now at the top flight, finishing 10th and then 3rd. 10 games into this season I am top of the table and looking set to qualify out of my CL group. I then come across an away fixture vs Granada. This has always been a very bad fixture, only the one draw from 3 tries and last time out I got stuffed 4-0 in the last game of last season. They are 16th in the table with pretty poor morale, not much different to when I had my last two defeats there.

So instead of playing my normal game and getting beat again I decided against the Standard/Control strategy with aggressive shouts and went with a Counter strategy with shouts that would normally be used with a counter attacking play. I knew that if I gave them room to work, it would go wide, get swung in and headed home. That's how they beat me last time so I had to address that.

I decided that I would try and keep things really tight and burst on the break. That's exactly what happened. I had 4 shots on target, 3 were scored and they barely looked like scoring themselves despite having more shots. I have played both Barca and Real this season and in both games I played very aggressively, lots of pressing and ball retention. I got 2 1-1 draws from those games and if my players took their chances better I may have scored winners in both but the high tempo didn't help create clear quality chances. The slower play vs Granada did and I got a lingering monkey off my back.

So to cut a long-ish story short, what works against a Manchester United or a Barcelona or a Bayern Munich might not work against a Novara, a Getafe or a Wolves. No 2 games are the same and you have to adapt, exploit opposition weaknesses and shut down their strengths. The AI is still fairly limited as has been mentioned. So use your brain, think like a manager, and you should see your conversion rates improve.

**Leclercq** · 10-04-2012 00:25

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

CCC is the worst stat you can use to analyse a match because the CCC in FM12 is just absurd and many IRL CCC aren't counted as CCC ingame. You should use check shots on target + morale/motivation.

Honestly then, what is the point of it being in the game? Surely the game knows what a CCC chance is, within it's own engine. None of this "in real life it's not a CCC" tripe. If the game counts it as a CCC, then that is what it is. Which leads to the absurdity when you create 3 a game and continually miss, yet the CPU gets 2 and scores.

Originally Posted by marty78

I think the biggest problem is people expecting to win just because they are the better team or on better form.

No, the problem is people seeing their team create chance after chance, only for the striker to inexplicably miss time after time.

It's totally understandable why people get so frustrated. Have a quick look at 1 month of league fixtures.

http://i44.tinypic.com/732wkk.jpg

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2lvn4eq.jpg

http://oi39.tinypic.com/e8o5ts.jpg

Sitter after sitter goes begging. What on earth are you supposed to do?

According to the game:

Link 1 - 2 CCC, 7 Half chances (Hartlepool had 0 CCC and 3 half chances; 2 went in.)

Link 2 - 3 CCC, 7 Half chances (Rotherham had 2 CCC and 2 half chances)

Link 3 - 3 CCC, 3 Half chances (Rochdale had 5 CCC and 2 half chances)

My players get into poisition...BAM! Row z. Their striker gets into (arguably worse) positions, 0-1.

**wwfan** · 10-04-2012 00:48

The interpretation of CCCs in FM is hugely liberal. Basically, a chance is a CCC if the player is in a position from which, should he do everything right, he will score. However, doing everything right still means he often has to:

Dribble at pace with defenders breathing down his neck
Get the ball on his stronger foot
Miss the keeper
Hit the target
Stay composed

We've long argued for a more precise interpretation involving distance from goal, space around the player, angle of shot, touches taken, angle of the supply pass etc. With the current interpretation, the user requires a very subjective eye to determine between genuinely good chances and those that the player will do well to convert. Long term, I'd expect the interpretation to get better and more useful, but until it does, it is a very flawed stat.

**deathspawn666** · 10-04-2012 00:56

Originally Posted by wwfan

How would teams in real life adapt their play against stronger and weaker teams? How might you translate that into the FM tactical module?

If you haven't even started to think this through, then it is no surprise your results are relatively random.

how teams do it in real life? with a player personal instruction which is something you can't do in FM and those instructions are also based on players characteristics. in FM you can't save instruction for 1 player, you give instructions for position. In real life players also have free will to choose in those critical moments, in FM if you give an instruction to a position the player will always do the same thing if the situation repeats itself... how can i do it in FM? in real life players learn with their mistakes, in FM they do the same **** up over and over, wanna example? Ramos has easy tackling and keeps getting yeallow cards in totally non dangerous situations and i keep taking him 1 week salary and every month he still does the same thing...maybe i should just stop using a world class player right??
and i'm still waiting for a mod to show tactics,instructions, whatever it is, to make my strikers not miss ridiculous 1vs1 and also make Casillas actually save 1vs1 because after 3 seasons he still hasn't done 1

**wwfan** · 10-04-2012 01:02

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

how teams do it in real life? with a player personal instruction which is something you can't do in FM and those instructions are also based on players characteristics. in FM you can't save instruction for 1 player, you give instructions for position. In real life players also have free will to choose in those critical moments, in FM if you give an instruction to a position the player will always do the same thing if the situation repeats itself... how can i do it in FM? no freaking clue, there is no way i can save instructions for 25 players...and game only allows 3 tactics for match preparation...

1: You can give every player a set of individual instructions without affecting match prep at all. Match prep only influences team instructions. If you want one AMR option to play as a defensive forward supporting the attack, whereas the other option as a traditional attacking winger, you can do so with no hit at all.

2: Each player has personal characteristics (PPMs) plus ability levels (attributes). By analysing what they are and setting relevant Roles/Duties/Sliders, you can get very different behaviours from very different players.

3: Creative Freedom allows players to exercise more or less free will. As does the flair attribute, which will naturally override instructions to any player if it is high.

**wwfan** · 10-04-2012 01:08

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

in FM they do the same **** up over and over, wanna example? Ramos has easy tackling and keeps getting yeallow cards in totally non dangerous situations and i keep taking him 1 week salary and every month he still does the same thing...maybe i should just stop using a world class player right??
and i'm still waiting for a mod to show tactics,instructions, whatever it is, to make my strikers not miss ridiculous 1vs1 and also make Casillas actually save 1vs1 because after 3 seasons he still hasn't done 1

We have to rely on your read of the game for us to accept the situation isn't dangerous. There might also be a number of player attributes that make Ramos likely to go in a little harder than you'd wish. Either way, fining a player for getting a yellow card is terrible man-management. If you are doing that, I'm not surprised he pays no attention to your tactical instructions. He'd have zero respect for you.

As for the missed chances/converted chances, if you are approaching them in a similar manner to dealing with Ramos then you deserve what you are getting.

**deathspawn666** · 10-04-2012 01:12

Originally Posted by wwfan

1: You can give every player a set of individual instructions without affecting match prep at all. Match prep only influences team instructions. If you want one AMR option to play as a defensive forward supporting the attack, whereas the other option as a traditional attacking winger, you can do so with no hit at all.

2: Each player has personal characteristics (PPMs) plus ability levels (attributes). By analysing what they are and setting relevant Roles/Duties/Sliders, you can get very different behaviours from very different players.

3: Creative Freedom allows players to exercise more or less free will. As does the flair attribute, which will naturally override instructions to any player if it is high.

1: you already said it up there that AMR/L won't go back to defensive support even though they are instructed for it...also tactic knowledge of team will go down, not very realistic and no 3 tactics training ain't enough.

2: i can't say a player "hey you got a yellow card be careful" or "hey stop getting those stupid yellow cards when there is no need to even tackle the player"". i also don't see anything in Ramos stats or PPMs that would make him take his stupid decisions, his "agression" stat is now 15, have players with more and they don't see yellow cards for stupid reasons

3: and where can we see flair attribute? right we can't...creative freedom on defense? that would be interesting but then if i conceed the answer would be "it's your tactics"

and why is there no answer for strikers missing so many 1vs1 against small teams? all i see is ppl saying go defensive, hell i even tried 4-2-1-2-1 (2DMS and 1 MC) with control mentality and guess what still conceed in a freaking CA because apparently 2 DCs can't mark 1 lonely striker that is between them 2 and 1 meter away from them. also why is every AI crossing in CA so perfect that always goes near the AI striker? i'm yet to see 1 crossing from CA go out,meanwhile dimaria,ozil,douglas costa,william,gaitan keep doing it...i'm starting to abandon wingers tactics, they all made stupid crossing that either go out or straight into keeper

**wwfan** · 10-04-2012 01:21

Originally Posted by deathspawn666

1: you already said it up there that AMR/L won't go back to defensive support even though they are instructed for it...also tactic knowledge of team will go down, not very realistic and no 3 tactics training ain't enough.

2: i can't say a player "hey you got a yellow card be careful" or "hey stop getting those stupid yellow cards when there is no need to even tackle the player"". i also don't see anything in Ramos stats or PPMs that would make him take his stupid decisions, his "agression" stat is now 15, have players with more and they don't see yellow cards for stupid reasons

3: and where can we see flair attribute? right we can't...creative freedom on defense? that would be interesting but then if i conceed the answer would be "it's your tactics"

1: I just told you that the tactic knowledge of the team DOES NOT GO DOWN when you change individual player instructions. It makes no difference to tactical knowledge if you play an AMR as Defensive Forward/Support one week, then as Winger/Attack the next. You also need to take on board that match prep hits are really minimal. It is far better to increase you passing length to deal with a very wet pitch and take the minor hit than it would be not making the change.

2: 15 is high aggression. A defender with that level of aggression will pick up yellows, no matter what.

3: Flair is a player attribute. It is under mental attributes. Some level of CF is useful, even vital, for defenders. Doesn't have to be high, but shouldn't be set to the absolute minimum.

**Karnage94** · 10-04-2012 01:29

Just as a bit of back up on the yellow card issue. Sergio Ramos in my Tenerife save has amassed an incredible 11 yellow cards in 10 games with 1 red this season. I also note he has only 11 for decisions, so he's not the most intelligent player either and will make silly decisions, and in his position, he'll make a lot of poor tackle choices

**Candre168** · 10-04-2012 01:31

If I have 20 shots, and they're all crap, yet the opponent has one good shot and scores, I have no complaints.

My complaints come when I have 5 CCC and the opponent has 1 or even 0 yet wins 2-0.

I really can't recall a game in which the AI had more CCC's than me, but I won the game/got a point, even when managing lesser sides.

I remember last year (or two years ago), someone from SI acknowledging that because it is easier to for the User to generate more CCC's, the ratio of CCC's to shots had been toned down. I don't know if this is still the case, but it would not surprise me.

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