I probably won't bother returning but I'll leave you with those.
Is it my tactics? I don't know what to think anymore.
I probably won't bother returning but I'll leave you with those.
Is it my tactics? I don't know what to think anymore.
It's your tactics!
I don't get that one, what's happened there?
An own goal id imagine?
2 Shots on target, 1 goal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Y U NO GOOD FINISHERS? Y U NO WORK, WORK BALL INTO BOX SHOUT?
Zaragoza had no shots, not one shot. Is it my tactics? No. Losing faith.
So basically people, creating lots of chances in this game doesn't do you much good at all.
Out of interest, how many of your closer chances are from set pieces? If it is a high percentage, then it looks like you are barely creating any good chances in open play.
Is there an easy way to check this?
fwiw my team were the top scorers last year in the league with 96 goals, generally we are good finishers which makes the situation more strange for me.
Not an easy way. Just go back to the chances screen for the Zaragoza match and click on the closer dots. You'll then see a replay of each chance. If they are all or mostly set pieces, you are a step closer to solving your problem.
I had a look and I think I watched all of them, I counted 5 of the chances as being from set pieces. 2 of those being the saved efforts.
I just wish that I could suss how you get your players working it into the box
So, basically you haven't created a single decent open play chance in the match. Your team is firing from all over the place instead of opening the defence up and creating good chances. Why is that do you think?
I'd love to be able to know but I have no idea.
I tell my players to work it into the box, use a rigid philosophy, minimize the use of long shots through sliders, build up the play etc but they still won't listen, they just shoot when they feel like it and it ends up with lots of blocked shots and shots going wide.
Detail your thoughts on how you should be creating chances.
Who should the main goalscorers be?
How are you getting the ball to them?
Where is the support coming from?
How are you trying to open space?
Are you playing patiently or driving forward at tempo?
Alright wwfan I'll make adjustments once again and we'll see how this works out.
Below is an example of my chance spread. As you can see, I have a high number of chances from between the posts, in the box, within 12 yards, or all three. The team has only made one wild, speculative shot (blue shot, wide right). Place this in comparison with your Udinese and Zaragoza matches, when you average about 7 speculative shots, with none at all within 6 yards.
Provides you with something to aim at.
Mmm, interesting, first game after the tactical changes and we get this result against the current league leaders.
Still a few long shots and 3 goals were set pieces (2 pens + 1 FK) but intriguing, every shot but one in the box went in. I'll continue to see how things turn out.
What you want is a stat that isn't provided in the game; Open Chances. It is calculated from CCC (let's say at roughly 3 to 1)
So CCC are really "okay chances", half-chances are bad chances and other chances are not really chances at all. Now look at the stats again. While it is possible to score from Half-chances and Other chances (and worse), in this match you have not actually created anything at all. You say that "counter-attacks are superior". Of course they are! It is always easier to score against three or four defenders who are chasing the ball and players on the run than it is to score against nine or ten defenders waiting for you in position - this goes without saying. In addition, the way FM is set up, attacking mentality and tempo works together so that if you set the tempo to slow but a very attacking mentality your players will still not play patiently. Rather, they will try to finish the attacks themselves wherever they are regardless of long shots instructions as soon as there are no passing options directly in front of him.
From 27 shots you created 1 that could have been described as a good chance! Thats incredible.
What did you do during that game when you saw what your team was doing?
To be fair shooting levels have been extremely poor in this FM and I do wonder if it's to counteract the poor ME defending or every game would end up 6-5!! I have good finishers who hit the corner flag, shoot "pee rollers" along the floor, really poor efforts that you may see IRL once in a while but not often like in FM. The worst one is the ledt sided striker who blasts it into the side netting, especially a right footed striker in that left slot. I have tried to get him to cut inside but to no avail. The complete "fluffs" seem to have replaced the shots straight at the keeper in the first patch. To be fair the AI suffers from really bad misses as well.
There is nothing wrong with the shooting in FM, its the chances created! This guy is creating 27 chances and only 1 is good enough to be close to a goal, that says nothing at all about the shooting and everything about the types of chances he is creating.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Protractor.jpg ). Any wider or narrower than that and the keeper is at a huge advantage. In addition, their right CD should be at least a metre behind him if to his right, or ideally to his left or not there at all. Extreme pace is the easiest way to achieve that, but tactically you need to pull their CDR out of position if you don't have such quick strikers. Passing from one flank to the other is one way to do this, your strikers dropping deep is another. You can also trick him to mark or close down your left winger instead of the left striker, but then there is likely little space centrally anyway.
In FM 11 to be fair it was almost too easy, definitely with your right striker. Every time he was free of the last defender he would shoot beautifully low to the keepers right always nestling the ball in the bottom corner so maybe it has been tweaked.
Have to say I disagree with Milner point. Of course it's a lot to do with shooting. If strikers shoot properly you will score and thus means more chances are scored so you are less likely to be complaining about clear cut chances or chances created and still losing!!!! ;-)
There is isnt too much wrong with shooting in this game, apart from the occasional issue when players aren't quite shooting across goal as much as they should. But even then most intelligent strikers will do so. Certainly not extremely poor.
Last edited by themadsheep2001; 24-02-2013 at 14:17.
Creating 27 chances in a game is not normal and when we create these chances we aren't rewarded.
Why is that my players are so poor at taking these chances?
Is it my tactics? To an extent.
Is it their attributes? I doubt it as they've got great finishing stats most of them.
Is it the match engine? There's definitely something wrong with finishing in the ME.
What do you have to say about the AI taking their only 2 chances on target? One being a nice screamer outside the box.
Is it luck? Or am I just cursed? Or could it be a poor ME?
Is it Spurs in the last few weeks of this season that have needed around 25 shots per goal?
You haven't created 27 chances in a game, you have had 27 shots in a game - Not the same thing.
If you create good chances you are rewarded with goals both in RL and on FM over time (Nb there will be fluctuations as you will go through good and bad spells).
See above - They aren't really chances.Why is that my players are so poor at taking these chances?
Create better chances and your players will convert more often.
Most probably yes - See wwfan's post #117.Is it my tactics? To an extent.
Probably not as in general users find it easier to identify good players than good tactics.Is it their attributes? I doubt it as they've got great finishing stats most of them.
No, as if it was every user would be experiencing the same problem.Is it the match engine? There's definitely something wrong with finishing in the ME.
They created better chances and scored a long shot, nothing really wrong with that.What do you have to say about the AI taking their only 2 chances on target? One being a nice screamer outside the box.
Luck plays a role but in general you can do more to help yourself.Is it luck? Or am I just cursed? Or could it be a poor ME?
Last edited by Cougar2010; 05-04-2012 at 12:48.
Or you could accept that it just IS your tactics and adapt. While I absolutely don't agree that there's 'nothing' wrong with shooting and finishing (the angles players choose to shoot from are too often suspect, they are way too willing to take a shot on their weaker foot or try one form an impossible angle etc) it goes both ways and it's actually easier to exploit it than suffer from it if you accept the reasons and react accordingly.
I seem to have adjusted the tactics to allow my players to take chances more successfully however there's still a problem with the AI scoring with just 1-3 shots on target at times, not sure what do about that.
I lost any chance to catch a Champions league positions last season just because of this issue.I dominate most of games i have all stats in my favor but when it comes to goals Ai somehow manage to pull it back even from 2 goals difference with 2 shots on goals last 15 minutes.Its just silly SI must fix this crap already.
Im tired of missing easy sitters and blasting everywhere except net,this game have too many woodworks and silly missed chances if u ask me.Sometimes i feel that its russian roulette and not a simulation of real football.Not to mention stats like finishing composure where too offen this stats are not taken in consideration and ME just completely ignore them.
Last edited by Bebetu; 05-04-2012 at 17:51.
I just love how people still refuse to see something that is so clear in this game. If you have any doubts about the bias just go train Real Madrid, put CR in striker position and as target men. here's what happens almost every game: 30 shots, around half are on target and are either shots that Ronaldo shoots straight at the keeper with no other opposition or just a super awesome defense from the keeper. and dont even get me on the amount of thos ronaldo sends off target when he has a good angle and has no opposition. same on the long shots where a random DM AI player with 13 on long shots and 10 on finishing can score from 1/4 of the field against casillas while my players xavi alonso, kaka, douglas costa and willian often miss them with no opposition.
Last edited by deathspawn666; 05-04-2012 at 17:52.
Seriously this game give me the creeps i recall only few games last season that if it were normal i even could beat for title with my team.
For example in 1 game against Chealsea i dominate the posession having ~same other stats but somehow they manage to beat me and this after a throw in where my team forgot to defend.Other games i lost just because of stupid corners or because my strikers forgot how to score while ai having diabolic rates of conversion.Its just silly.
On the other hand, defending IS poor in the game so there are of course more chances and more goals than in rl.
Can nobody see the clear difference between the shot spread in posts 107, 109 & 121 and the one I posted in 119? Quite simply, in the first three posts a large number of the shots from open play are speculative, whereas in 119 most are from relatively good positions. If you aren't able to create a quality shot spread, you are going to have a lot of games in which you struggle to score.
Perfectly put!Or you could accept that it just IS your tactics and adapt. While I absolutely don't agree that there's 'nothing' wrong with shooting and finishing (the angles players choose to shoot from are too often suspect, they are way too willing to take a shot on their weaker foot or try one form an impossible angle etc) it goes both ways and it's actually easier to exploit it than suffer from it if you accept the reasons and react accordingly.
agree with you on the defending, it was a clear problem in FM11 and still is on FM12, so they nerfed strikers however the nerf is so severe that if it applies the same for AI then most of them will hardly score, therefore creating the bias
Last edited by deathspawn666; 05-04-2012 at 23:18.
Is there really any point in this thread any more? Some people clearly dont want the help thats being offered, the post above sums up this forum perfectly.
With all the mis-information that gets spread in the GD forum its no wonder some people dont know what to make of the game.
Bro, I'd say after the tactical adjustments your offense is working quite nicely. Now you just have to figure out why the team still concedes the occasional goal. Its probably because the opposition is countering you, playing a very direct style for a few minutes of the game, overloading your flanks, or getting set piece goals due to aerial dominance (or poor instructions, marking). Hell, if you score 3 and concede 1 I wouldn't worry about it too much!
The game has many areas than be improved, doesn't change the fact that a lot of the time its down to the user needing to adapt their approach.
Last edited by themadsheep2001; 06-04-2012 at 11:36.
One thing i'll add. I cant help but think that some of the OP's (and other peoples problems) could be helped if the assistant manager was better developed, and gave some better more detailed advice.
Last edited by themadsheep2001; 06-04-2012 at 11:50.
I'm not too bothered about my world class players missing chance after chance - this has been part of FM for as long as I remember once you've got a team together which dominates the opposition. What really rustles my jimmies is when the opposition players (who start the game with low morale, get battered for the entire match, and have half the ability and necessary attributes to score) tuck away goals after only one or two chances.
I would've thought that great finishing/decision/composure stats and high morale = more goals. But that's not always the case, and the game is really poor at explaining why this isn't the case.
EDIT: And I'm talking about equivalent chances. Not a bunch of long shots from team on top and then a CCC for the weaker team. Also, I'm quite aware that this goes against the AI too - it's just the better teams who suffer from this kind of thing, human or AI controlled.
Last edited by tubbycrabs; 06-04-2012 at 11:46.
Against smaller teams defending deep with a lot of players, "Run from Deep" should be limited to one player who can either breakaway very quickly or who will move wide and draw defenders out of position while relying on a "support" striker and wingers making late runs to be your primary goalscorers.
EDIT: And the value of the Finishing attribute is overestimated by many. A high Finishing attribute will, in ideal situations, occasionally allow a player to make a more difficult shot, but on the whole, it's not going to magically turn a poor chance into a good one. Against defensive teams where you need to patiently and intelligently break down the opposition, Anticipation, Composure, Off the Ball and Decisions are far more important. Playing as Liverpool, I had Maxi Rodriguez and Dirk Kuyt establish the most prolific scoring partnership in the EPL for two seasons... their Finishing attributes were, respectively, 12 and 13.
Last edited by The Hand of God; 06-04-2012 at 12:31.
since some people are saying it's a tactics problem , would you mind telling me how i can see the tactical problem when the AI scores in the first minutes? in the first highlight? playing defensive doesn't work, i tried it and still conceeded.
and how about the tactics to enable our defenders to make a super clear out that goes straight into the striker like AI does? anyone?
I have only conceded one goal so far in the first 15 minutes of any game ( that was an 11th minute own goal by the keeper) while scoring 29 goals in the first 15 minutes, 9 of which were in the first 5 minutes of the game.
Last edited by themadsheep2001; 06-04-2012 at 14:10.
as for the long shots it's usually from 1/4 of the field and my DM apparently refuses to mark him no matter what i tell to him...
oh and one more thing, this happens against lower reputation teams which no matter what teamtalk i use (reloaded a couple of games to try them all) my players will just have their heads on the clouds, against high reputation teams my defenders are always good, for example against barcelona villa and messi are very well marked through the whole game
Last edited by deathspawn666; 06-04-2012 at 14:45.
I have been following the discussion here. Then I played Rubin away with Arsenal (won the first leg at home 4-0), losing 6-4 having 17 shots, 12 on target, 9 CCC. Rubin had 10 shots, 6 on target, 2 ccc.
I would be very interested too see what I did wrong. I played a slow control strategy with the aim of keeping the ball. When I saw there was space as Rubin was pushing up their d-line I used the shouts pass into space and retain possesion. Also I played with a lower d-line as usual as Rubin played two fast strikers (Martins and Valdez)
Link to the pkm:
I just played Fulham with my Sunderland side and won 9-3, I only had 2 clear cut chances. Never had a game where my attackers were so successful in creating goals from nothing.
I always pick the Assertive "second leg" warning against complacency when leading on aggregate while being favourites. Always worked for me.
I used the drop deeper shout as they had very pacey strikers, but because of my team closing down often on default ("press more") it looks like my d-line was still too high (it was on the 10th notch). Interestingly my d-line would have been deeper had I played with "stand off more", but then the defense would have been even less inclined to close down.
The AI cheats hard. there shots is concise when clear despite how low calibre the finisher is. ive noticed my strikers always denied one on one despite how much composure concentration, finishing dribbling aswell as all that off the ball anticipation and i must note on the preffered foot his is happening to. and i mean a weak team. also for example. why is west brom and wolves so deadly at finishing despite how they are in real life?
and lastly the AI will rob you for the whole match. u throw everthing at them. its 1-0 to yo or 0-0 a match u dominated. then 80+ mins comes to play. have u noticed how many highlights you get against you with you whole team having a hard time where they will suddently score and injury time of 3mins extend to like 6 mins and they score in the time more they they sould of been given. BS!
Also reading got promoted. proper poor morale. no significant signings.....they ripped me apart in possesion shots and i barely had a sniff. i won match and 1-0 and i scrapped it. despite playing them twice already in the npower championship where i hammered them. ( i am southampton and promoted from the start and this is the 3rd season) my defence consisted of bassong shawcross and rolando with other equal evialent players on the side like bacinovic and jucilei omer damari and mertens etc. that is not cool cos we had high morale and non of them was over confident during start of match and my formation etc is all accomplished so whats that about?
Probably a noob question but what is a "CA tactic"?
Upload the .pkm of your games if you really want people to try to figure out what your tactic was doing wrong in those games.
Oh and while I may change closing down I will never change mentality when I drop deeper as a mentality change will also change d-line.
"It's your tactics"
At least this is what the moderators will say.
It's your tactics that your players can't convert chances a school boy would shoot fine.
It's your tactics that your players start playing dodgeball with the AI goalkeeper instead of football.
It's your tactics that your defenders can't defend for their lives.
It's your tactics that you got 3 woodworks for 4 consecutive games.
It's your tactics that you get so many own goals per season.
It's your tactics that you just had 4-5 injuries within a game. All of them for 2+ months.
It's always your tactics,because FM is loyal to "real life statistics" and that's what a simulator is all about. But when statistics don't cut it anymore, "it's only a game" and we can't expect it to be loyal to real life!
And let's not forget that something is a "bug" only when it actually annoys the moderators themselves,otherwise we are just being biased.
Just face it,hypocrisy moderates these forums. This reply will just get deleted or end up locking the thread,only a few will get to see it. How do you expect the game to improve when this has been the case for the last few years? How can the game improve when the complains of the player-base are silenced before the actual developers see them?
I've given up hope in FM. Next year we get a new match engine. That's the last chance I'm personally giving this game and it's too much already considering the way people are treated here.
While I'd agree that dropping deeper when having a wide width and playing slowly is not a great thing to do, I'd argue that it was the manual width setting, not the drop deeper shout per se, that caused the problem. His team basically opened up masses of space, which was a combination of the two elements. If he had really wanted to keep things tight, he should have used 'drop deeper', 'play narrower', 'retain possession' and 'pass to feet'.
The key change was sorting out corner deliveries and AI corner choices.
Regarding injuries, a lot of injuries seems to be caused by hard tackling from the AI, at least they are normally after challenges.
What exactly can you do to avoid that?
Rotate so you don't have low-condition players on the field (increased injury risk) and don't respond in kind (increased number of dangerous situations). If the pitch is bad, focus play on the less chewed-up flanks. Apart from that, not a whole lot I think. Facing a lot of hard-tackling, dirty opponents is risky. In the longer term, injury proneness should probably be a factor to consider seriously in squad building.
Exactly what to do with this tactic and this team in this match I don't know, but I do know the first thing I would set Heaven and Earth in motion to prevent is that disparage between defensive line (the spot where the defenders stop backing off), closing down (the spot where the individual player leaves his position) and mentality (the willingness to try a tackle). If these are adequately aligned in the original starting tactic, just clicking on "drop deeper" may in some cases disrupt the whole defensive balance of the tactic leading to silly behaviour like for instance a full back sprinting out of his correct position towards their winger before following him all the way to the corner flag and then letting him cross. Or as in this case, backing off holding the line until it is too late, and then leaving his position at the worst possible moment. The right combination of shouts in addition to "drop deeper", however, would of course let the user maintain balance while denying the opponent space, just like you said.
starting to do my head in, 2 more goals conceded in a game, 2 penaltys, one guy stood there and got "shirt pulled" right after a kick off (ha that dumb kick off no player tackles junk) and a dive, My players always get punished for diving, yet thiers rarely do.
I restarted my CL game with Man City vs. AC Milan twice...since Joe Hart conceded 2 own goals from back-passes in both. Was not amused.
I have played FM (and CM before) since 99-00. Most versions have been improvement over previous ones, but AI is AI. It took ages to make machine to beat top human chess player..and that is quite limited game compared to options AI has to consider.
FM12 still does some annoying things, like what I used to call "stealth injuries" to your players and their players can score statistically better than yours. When getting really annoyed, I just press "Tactics" and "Quit Game & Exit". Restart usually does wonders to my morale...bringing it from "Poor" to "Good".
It's still good game and AI feelings are not hurt.
I really feel like giving up on the game completely. I play Wolves away with Arsenal. Odds are 3.2 - 2, so I am the favourite. I play a slow possesion based control tactic. have 60% possession, 6 shots all on target, no goals. The first cross that Kightly gave was converted by Fletcher (header): 1-0 for Wolves. This was their first shot in the game (8th minute) In the OIt he instructions I gave on Kightly were show on left foot, closing down always and tackling hard. What did my LB (Gibbs) do? He showed him outside en did not close down or tackle he gave him the amount of space I would expect with closing down never and tackling easy. I gave tight marking instructions on Fletcher, but Coscielny just forgot about him and left Sagna to pick him up who lost the header.
In the rest of the match chances were evenly distributed but possesion remained on 55%.
I am really at a loss here as the game gave me the signals that my strategy was spot on, the assman comment also stated this. Then they get one shot on target and bam! it is a goal.
For people that are interested here is the pkm: