Why is the AI so much better at finishing?

[ArsenalFan7]

I probably won't bother returning but I'll leave you with those.

Is it my tactics? I don't know what to think anymore.

[ArsenalFan7]

There are two obvious things here.
1) Generally most of us agree that in FM12 the 'woodwork' has a much greater impact that real life. Partially because it's so bias towards attacking play that we create more than realistic amounts of chances.
2) Everyone who disagrees believes it's 'our tactics'. Which is fine if someone will happily tell me where the "stop shooting from outside the box ALL the time" option is. Because it's not the 'long shots' slider, or the 'direct passing' slider, or the formation, or the 'work it into the box' shout.

Simply put if there was an option in the tactics to force my team to never take on the 25 yard option and always look for a man in the box, then the "it's your tactics" brigade would have some merit. As it is our tactics are vague hints and mere suggestions at best.

...................

[Bebetu]

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5005/0shots1goal.png
0 shots on target 1 goal what rate is this? over 9 thousand %?

[ArsenalFan7]

It's your tactics!

I don't get that one, what's happened there?

[milnerpoint]

An own goal id imagine?

[Silent_Thunder]

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5005/0shots1goal.png
0 shots on target 1 goal what rate is this? over 9 thousand %?

I'd imagine a horribly wide shot that bounced off some poor defender into the goal.

[ArsenalFan7]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[ArsenalFan7]

2 Shots on target, 1 goal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[ArsenalFan7]

Y U NO GOOD FINISHERS? Y U NO WORK, WORK BALL INTO BOX SHOUT?

Zaragoza had no shots, not one shot. Is it my tactics? No. Losing faith.

[ArsenalFan7]

So basically people, creating lots of chances in this game doesn't do you much good at all.

[wwfan]

Out of interest, how many of your closer chances are from set pieces? If it is a high percentage, then it looks like you are barely creating any good chances in open play.

[ArsenalFan7]

Is there an easy way to check this?

fwiw my team were the top scorers last year in the league with 96 goals, generally we are good finishers which makes the situation more strange for me.

[wwfan]

Not an easy way. Just go back to the chances screen for the Zaragoza match and click on the closer dots. You'll then see a replay of each chance. If they are all or mostly set pieces, you are a step closer to solving your problem.

[ArsenalFan7]

I had a look and I think I watched all of them, I counted 5 of the chances as being from set pieces. 2 of those being the saved efforts.

I just wish that I could suss how you get your players working it into the box

[wwfan]

So, basically you haven't created a single decent open play chance in the match. Your team is firing from all over the place instead of opening the defence up and creating good chances. Why is that do you think?

[ArsenalFan7]

I'd love to be able to know but I have no idea.

I tell my players to work it into the box, use a rigid philosophy, minimize the use of long shots through sliders, build up the play etc but they still won't listen, they just shoot when they feel like it and it ends up with lots of blocked shots and shots going wide.

[wwfan]

Detail your thoughts on how you should be creating chances.

Who should the main goalscorers be?
How are you getting the ball to them?
Where is the support coming from?
How are you trying to open space?
Are you playing patiently or driving forward at tempo?

[ArsenalFan7]

Alright wwfan I'll make adjustments once again and we'll see how this works out.

ty

[wwfan]

Below is an example of my chance spread. As you can see, I have a high number of chances from between the posts, in the box, within 12 yards, or all three. The team has only made one wild, speculative shot (blue shot, wide right). Place this in comparison with your Udinese and Zaragoza matches, when you average about 7 speculative shots, with none at all within 6 yards.

Provides you with something to aim at.

[ArsenalFan7]

Mmm, interesting, first game after the tactical changes and we get this result against the current league leaders.

Still a few long shots and 3 goals were set pieces (2 pens + 1 FK) but intriguing, every shot but one in the box went in. I'll continue to see how things turn out.

[BiggusD]

Counter attack is superior ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure I had many long shots but those I did have a few good opportunities which ended up as nothing.

Just look at the Villareal shot statistics in this match! Awful!

What you want is a stat that isn't provided in the game; Open Chances. It is calculated from CCC (let's say at roughly 3 to 1)

So CCC are really "okay chances", half-chances are bad chances and other chances are not really chances at all. Now look at the stats again. While it is possible to score from Half-chances and Other chances (and worse), in this match you have not actually created anything at all. You say that "counter-attacks are superior". Of course they are! It is always easier to score against three or four defenders who are chasing the ball and players on the run than it is to score against nine or ten defenders waiting for you in position - this goes without saying. In addition, the way FM is set up, attacking mentality and tempo works together so that if you set the tempo to slow but a very attacking mentality your players will still not play patiently. Rather, they will try to finish the attacks themselves wherever they are regardless of long shots instructions as soon as there are no passing options directly in front of him.

[milnerpoint]

From 27 shots you created 1 that could have been described as a good chance! Thats incredible.
What did you do during that game when you saw what your team was doing?

[Gandy]

it is amazing!

Fairly sure this guy is trolling the forums.

[Sussex Hammer]

To be fair shooting levels have been extremely poor in this FM and I do wonder if it's to counteract the poor ME defending or every game would end up 6-5!! I have good finishers who hit the corner flag, shoot "pee rollers" along the floor, really poor efforts that you may see IRL once in a while but not often like in FM. The worst one is the ledt sided striker who blasts it into the side netting, especially a right footed striker in that left slot. I have tried to get him to cut inside but to no avail. The complete "fluffs" seem to have replaced the shots straight at the keeper in the first patch. To be fair the AI suffers from really bad misses as well.

[milnerpoint]

There is nothing wrong with the shooting in FM, its the chances created! This guy is creating 27 chances and only 1 is good enough to be close to a goal, that says nothing at all about the shooting and everything about the types of chances he is creating.

[BiggusD]

To be fair shooting levels have been extremely poor in this FM and I do wonder if it's to counteract the poor ME defending or every game would end up 6-5!! I have good finishers who hit the corner flag, shoot "pee rollers" along the floor, really poor efforts that you may see IRL once in a while but not often like in FM. The worst one is the ledt sided striker who blasts it into the side netting, especially a right footed striker in that left slot. I have tried to get him to cut inside but to no avail. The complete "fluffs" seem to have replaced the shots straight at the keeper in the first patch. To be fair the AI suffers from really bad misses as well.

What have you set the width to?

[Sussex Hammer]

What have you set the width to?

Mid range at Home and narrow away but I have played wide as well.

[BiggusD]

Mid range at Home and narrow away but I have played wide as well.

Try to spot where your left striker receives the ball compared to their right central defender. If the latter has an easy time showing him onto his weaker foot, forcing a left-footed shot, he is likely receiving the ball too close to the 16-meter box and/or too close or far from the centre line. You adjust this with the Run From Deep, Mentality and Width sliders. Optimally, you would want your left striker to approach the goal on a 70-50 degree angle (as seen here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Protractor.jpg ). Any wider or narrower than that and the keeper is at a huge advantage. In addition, their right CD should be at least a metre behind him if to his right, or ideally to his left or not there at all. Extreme pace is the easiest way to achieve that, but tactically you need to pull their CDR out of position if you don't have such quick strikers. Passing from one flank to the other is one way to do this, your strikers dropping deep is another. You can also trick him to mark or close down your left winger instead of the left striker, but then there is likely little space centrally anyway.

[Sussex Hammer]

Try to spot where your left striker receives the ball compared to their right central defender. If the latter has an easy time showing him onto his weaker foot, forcing a left-footed shot, he is likely receiving the ball too close to the 16-meter box and/or too close or far from the centre line. You adjust this with the Run From Deep, Mentality and Width sliders. Optimally, you would want your left striker to approach the goal on a 70-50 degree angle (as seen here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Protractor.jpg ). Any wider or narrower than that and the keeper is at a huge advantage. In addition, their right CD should be at least a metre behind him if to his right, or ideally to his left or not there at all. Extreme pace is the easiest way to achieve that, but tactically you need to pull their CDR out of position if you don't have such quick strikers. Passing from one flank to the other is one way to do this, your strikers dropping deep is another. You can also trick him to mark or close down your left winger instead of the left striker, but then there is likely little space centrally anyway.

Interesting thoughts and many thanks for that. It happens regularly no matter what settings the striker has even when I also tried swapping the strikers over with change position. I have played a flat two up front and have just found an old FM 11 tactic in which the left striker plays a lot deeper and roams. It is frustrating to see how he skins the centre back with his pace and has a clear run at goal and yet shoots into the side netting rather than shoot across the keeper or try and cut in on his right foot. Or even just slot the ball across the area to the right unmarked striker. May have something to do with finishing and composure stats but I had Paloschi in a previous long term save and he was the same despite top stats.

In FM 11 to be fair it was almost too easy, definitely with your right striker. Every time he was free of the last defender he would shoot beautifully low to the keepers right always nestling the ball in the bottom corner so maybe it has been tweaked.

Have to say I disagree with Milner point. Of course it's a lot to do with shooting. If strikers shoot properly you will score and thus means more chances are scored so you are less likely to be complaining about clear cut chances or chances created and still losing!!!! ;-)

[milnerpoint]

Have to say I disagree with Milner point. Of course it's a lot to do with shooting. If strikers shoot properly you will score and thus means more chances are scored so you are less likely to be complaining about clear cut chances or chances created and still losing!!!! ;-)

If strikers are given good chances they will score from them, give them half chances or less and you will constantly see a repeat of the screen shots in this thread. There is a reason why a lot of us do not suffer from this problem, and we dont play special versions of the game. If your experiencing anything like we have seen in this thread it is 99% of time because of your tactics.

[themadsheep2001]

There is isnt too much wrong with shooting in this game, apart from the occasional issue when players aren't quite shooting across goal as much as they should. But even then most intelligent strikers will do so. Certainly not extremely poor.

[ArsenalFan7]

Creating 27 chances in a game is not normal and when we create these chances we aren't rewarded.

Why is that my players are so poor at taking these chances?
Is it my tactics? To an extent.
Is it their attributes? I doubt it as they've got great finishing stats most of them.
Is it the match engine? There's definitely something wrong with finishing in the ME.

What do you have to say about the AI taking their only 2 chances on target? One being a nice screamer outside the box.

Is it luck? Or am I just cursed? Or could it be a poor ME?

[Ackter]

Is it Spurs in the last few weeks of this season that have needed around 25 shots per goal?

[Cougar2010]

Creating 27 chances in a game is not normal and when we create these chances we aren't rewarded.

Your definition of chances is different to others in this thread.

You haven't created 27 chances in a game, you have had 27 shots in a game - Not the same thing.

If you create good chances you are rewarded with goals both in RL and on FM over time (Nb there will be fluctuations as you will go through good and bad spells).

Why is that my players are so poor at taking these chances?

See above - They aren't really chances.

Create better chances and your players will convert more often.

Is it my tactics? To an extent.

Most probably yes - See wwfan's post #117.

Is it their attributes? I doubt it as they've got great finishing stats most of them.

Probably not as in general users find it easier to identify good players than good tactics.

Is it the match engine? There's definitely something wrong with finishing in the ME.

No, as if it was every user would be experiencing the same problem.

What do you have to say about the AI taking their only 2 chances on target? One being a nice screamer outside the box.

They created better chances and scored a long shot, nothing really wrong with that.

Is it luck? Or am I just cursed? Or could it be a poor ME?

Luck plays a role but in general you can do more to help yourself.

[x42bn6]

Is it Spurs in the last few weeks of this season that have needed around 25 shots per goal?

15:3
29:3
19:0
24:1
22:0
15:3 (vs. Stevenage)
18:1

It's actually closer to 1 in 16 for Spurs (1 in 13 including the game against Stevenage).

[Äktsjon Männ]

Creating 27 chances in a game is not normal and when we create these chances we aren't rewarded.

Why is that my players are so poor at taking these chances?
Is it my tactics? To an extent.
Is it their attributes? I doubt it as they've got great finishing stats most of them.
Is it the match engine? There's definitely something wrong with finishing in the ME.

What do you have to say about the AI taking their only 2 chances on target? One being a nice screamer outside the box.

Is it luck? Or am I just cursed? Or could it be a poor ME?

Do you think the game hates you for some reason? Because it definitely doesn't happen to me.

Or you could accept that it just IS your tactics and adapt. While I absolutely don't agree that there's 'nothing' wrong with shooting and finishing (the angles players choose to shoot from are too often suspect, they are way too willing to take a shot on their weaker foot or try one form an impossible angle etc) it goes both ways and it's actually easier to exploit it than suffer from it if you accept the reasons and react accordingly.

[ArsenalFan7]

I seem to have adjusted the tactics to allow my players to take chances more successfully however there's still a problem with the AI scoring with just 1-3 shots on target at times, not sure what do about that.

[Bebetu]

I lost any chance to catch a Champions league positions last season just because of this issue.I dominate most of games i have all stats in my favor but when it comes to goals Ai somehow manage to pull it back even from 2 goals difference with 2 shots on goals last 15 minutes.Its just silly SI must fix this crap already.
Im tired of missing easy sitters and blasting everywhere except net,this game have too many woodworks and silly missed chances if u ask me.Sometimes i feel that its russian roulette and not a simulation of real football.Not to mention stats like finishing composure where too offen this stats are not taken in consideration and ME just completely ignore them.

[deathspawn666]

I just love how people still refuse to see something that is so clear in this game. If you have any doubts about the bias just go train Real Madrid, put CR in striker position and as target men. here's what happens almost every game: 30 shots, around half are on target and are either shots that Ronaldo shoots straight at the keeper with no other opposition or just a super awesome defense from the keeper. and dont even get me on the amount of thos ronaldo sends off target when he has a good angle and has no opposition. same on the long shots where a random DM AI player with 13 on long shots and 10 on finishing can score from 1/4 of the field against casillas while my players xavi alonso, kaka, douglas costa and willian often miss them with no opposition.

[Bebetu]

Seriously this game give me the creeps i recall only few games last season that if it were normal i even could beat for title with my team.
For example in 1 game against Chealsea i dominate the posession having ~same other stats but somehow they manage to beat me and this after a throw in where my team forgot to defend.Other games i lost just because of stupid corners or because my strikers forgot how to score while ai having diabolic rates of conversion.Its just silly.

[BiggusD]

I just love how people still refuse to see something that is so clear in this game. If you have any doubts about the bias just go train Real Madrid, put CR in striker position and as target men. here's what happens almost every game: 30 shots, around half are on target and are either shots that Ronaldo shoots straight at the keeper with no other opposition or just a super awesome defense from the keeper. and dont even get me on the amount of thos ronaldo sends off target when he has a good angle and has no opposition. same on the long shots where a random DM AI player with 13 on long shots and 10 on finishing can score from 1/4 of the field against casillas while my players xavi alonso, kaka, douglas costa and willian often miss them with no opposition.

C.Ronaldo has the shoots from distance ppm plus the biggest, most selfish ego on the planet. If not used correctly I am quite sure he can do stuff like that. If used correctly he can score a hat-trick per match, though.

On the other hand, defending IS poor in the game so there are of course more chances and more goals than in rl.

[wwfan]

Can nobody see the clear difference between the shot spread in posts 107, 109 & 121 and the one I posted in 119? Quite simply, in the first three posts a large number of the shots from open play are speculative, whereas in 119 most are from relatively good positions. If you aren't able to create a quality shot spread, you are going to have a lot of games in which you struggle to score.

Or you could accept that it just IS your tactics and adapt. While I absolutely don't agree that there's 'nothing' wrong with shooting and finishing (the angles players choose to shoot from are too often suspect, they are way too willing to take a shot on their weaker foot or try one form an impossible angle etc) it goes both ways and it's actually easier to exploit it than suffer from it if you accept the reasons and react accordingly.

Perfectly put!

[deathspawn666]

C.Ronaldo has the shoots from distance ppm plus the biggest, most selfish ego on the planet. If not used correctly I am quite sure he can do stuff like that. If used correctly he can score a hat-trick per match, though.

On the other hand, defending IS poor in the game so there are of course more chances and more goals than in rl.

i know very well how to use him, on my 1st season he scored 80 goals, my complain about his situation is even though he scored that much he could have scored many more if it wasn't for the fact he misses lots of goals in 1vs1 INSIDE the area and with a good angle but most of them are straight at the keeper or shots to the fans.
agree with you on the defending, it was a clear problem in FM11 and still is on FM12, so they nerfed strikers however the nerf is so severe that if it applies the same for AI then most of them will hardly score, therefore creating the bias

[themadsheep2001]

i know very well how to use him, on my 1st season he scored 80 goals, my complain about his situation is even though he scored that much he could have scored many more if it wasn't for the fact he misses lots of goals in 1vs1 INSIDE the area and with a good angle but most of them are straight at the keeper or shots to the fans.
agree with you on the defending, it was a clear problem in FM11 and still is on FM12, so they nerfed strikers however the nerf is so severe that if it applies the same for AI then most of them will hardly score, therefore creating the bias

They didnt nerf the strikers. There is no bias like that so dont spread misinformation.

[deathspawn666]

They didnt nerf the strikers. There is no bias like that so dont spread misinformation.

did you play fm11?? on the 11.0 release defending was very bad (tons of threads about it), on 11.1 they changed GKs and most of them turned super keepers (there was lots of thread also complaining about it) so we wouldn't score more, on fm11.2 they tweaked GKs to normal and nerfed strikers because suddenly world class strikers would made lots of stupid shots like we have now in fm12. you can bury your head in the sand all you want but this is what happened last year with tons of threads about it and in fm12 we have a very similar ME, even SI said they didn't changed it a lot

[deathspawn666]

Can nobody see the clear difference between the shot spread in posts 107, 109 & 121 and the one I posted in 119? Quite simply, in the first three posts a large number of the shots from open play are speculative, whereas in 119 most are from relatively good positions. If you aren't able to create a quality shot spread, you are going to have a lot of games in which you struggle to score.



Perfectly put!

oh nice to see you here wwfan, as for your quote you know very well that tactics is the least that matters atm in FM12, morale and teamtalks have much bigger impact on player performace and that was already proven in another thread that you and another mod locked when people were proving that the same problem is being discussed here. are you gonna close this thread now too?

[deathspawn666]

Can nobody see the clear difference between the shot spread in posts 107, 109 & 121 and the one I posted in 119? Quite simply, in the first three posts a large number of the shots from open play are speculative, whereas in 119 most are from relatively good positions. If you aren't able to create a quality shot spread, you are going to have a lot of games in which you struggle to score.



Perfectly put!

oh nice to see you here wwfan, as for your quote you know very well that tactics is the least that matters atm in FM12, morale and teamtalks have much bigger impact on player performace and that was already proven in another thread that you and another mod locked when people were proving that the same problem is being discussed here. are you gonna close this thread now too?

[milnerpoint]

Is there really any point in this thread any more? Some people clearly dont want the help thats being offered, the post above sums up this forum perfectly.

With all the mis-information that gets spread in the GD forum its no wonder some people dont know what to make of the game.

[achilles-the-victorious]

Bro, I'd say after the tactical adjustments your offense is working quite nicely. Now you just have to figure out why the team still concedes the occasional goal. Its probably because the opposition is countering you, playing a very direct style for a few minutes of the game, overloading your flanks, or getting set piece goals due to aerial dominance (or poor instructions, marking). Hell, if you score 3 and concede 1 I wouldn't worry about it too much!

[themadsheep2001]

oh nice to see you here wwfan, as for your quote you know very well that tactics is the least that matters atm in FM12, morale and teamtalks have much bigger impact on player performace and that was already proven in another thread that you and another mod locked when people were proving that the same problem is being discussed here. are you gonna close this thread now too?

It wasnt proven at all then. much like it hasnt been proven at all now. The game after the OP made changes, his scoring and finishing improved. You've already decidied you're right and are bashing anyone else who disagrees with you.

The game has many areas than be improved, doesn't change the fact that a lot of the time its down to the user needing to adapt their approach.

[themadsheep2001]

One thing i'll add. I cant help but think that some of the OP's (and other peoples problems) could be helped if the assistant manager was better developed, and gave some better more detailed advice.

[tubbycrabs]

I'm not too bothered about my world class players missing chance after chance - this has been part of FM for as long as I remember once you've got a team together which dominates the opposition. What really rustles my jimmies is when the opposition players (who start the game with low morale, get battered for the entire match, and have half the ability and necessary attributes to score) tuck away goals after only one or two chances.

I would've thought that great finishing/decision/composure stats and high morale = more goals. But that's not always the case, and the game is really poor at explaining why this isn't the case.

EDIT: And I'm talking about equivalent chances. Not a bunch of long shots from team on top and then a CCC for the weaker team. Also, I'm quite aware that this goes against the AI too - it's just the better teams who suffer from this kind of thing, human or AI controlled.

[The Hand of God]

You adjust this with the Run From Deep, Mentality and Width sliders.

I suspect Runs from Deep is probably the biggest problem with players who use extreme attacking tactics. If everyone is set to Run from Deep, they all just pile into the box and there's no real effort to break down the defense. Runs from Deep "Often" should only be used by more than two players if you are playing against tough opposition employing a high defensive line, otherwise those players will effectively just take themselves out of the build-up waiting for breakaway opportunities that are extremely unlikely to occur (as there's little to no space for them to run into).

Against smaller teams defending deep with a lot of players, "Run from Deep" should be limited to one player who can either breakaway very quickly or who will move wide and draw defenders out of position while relying on a "support" striker and wingers making late runs to be your primary goalscorers.

EDIT: And the value of the Finishing attribute is overestimated by many. A high Finishing attribute will, in ideal situations, occasionally allow a player to make a more difficult shot, but on the whole, it's not going to magically turn a poor chance into a good one. Against defensive teams where you need to patiently and intelligently break down the opposition, Anticipation, Composure, Off the Ball and Decisions are far more important. Playing as Liverpool, I had Maxi Rodriguez and Dirk Kuyt establish the most prolific scoring partnership in the EPL for two seasons... their Finishing attributes were, respectively, 12 and 13.

[themadsheep2001]

I suspect Runs from Deep is probably the biggest problem with players who use extreme attacking tactics. If everyone is set to Run from Deep, they all just pile into the box and there's no real effort to break down the defense. Runs from Deep "Often" should only be used by more than two players if you are playing against tough opposition employing a high defensive line, otherwise those players will effectively just take themselves out of the build-up waiting for breakaway opportunities that are extremely unlikely to occur (as there's little to no space for them to run into).

Against smaller teams defending deep with a lot of players, "Run from Deep" should be limited to one player who can either breakaway very quickly or who will move wide and draw defenders out of position while relying on a "support" striker and wingers making late runs to be your primary goalscorers.

EDIT: And the value of the Finishing attribute is overestimated by many. A high Finishing attribute will, in ideal situations, occasionally allow a player to make a more difficult shot, but on the whole, it's not going to magically turn a poor chance into a good one. Against defensive teams where you need to patiently and intelligently break down the opposition, Anticipation, Composure, Off the Ball and Decisions are far more important. Playing as Liverpool, I had Maxi Rodriguez and Dirk Kuyt establish the most prolific scoring partnership in the EPL for two seasons... their Finishing attributes were, respectively, 12 and 13.

I dont think I ever have more than two players from the front 6 with RFD often. I think it is often overused and can lead to inconsistent build up to attacks, because no one is left to exploit the space.

[deathspawn666]

since some people are saying it's a tactics problem , would you mind telling me how i can see the tactical problem when the AI scores in the first minutes? in the first highlight? playing defensive doesn't work, i tried it and still conceeded.
and how about the tactics to enable our defenders to make a super clear out that goes straight into the striker like AI does? anyone?

[themadsheep2001]

since some people are saying it's a tactics problem , would you mind telling me how i can see the tactical problem when the AI scores in the first minutes? in the first highlight? playing defensive doesn't work, i tried it and still conceeded.
and how about the tactics to enable our defenders to make a super clear out that goes straight into the striker like AI does? anyone?

The best way to find out is watch the first few minutes on full and see where each of their early goals goes come from, who is conceding it, are players missing the tackles etc, are they shooting from range from the off with no one closing down etc. Without actually seeing the goals you are conceding, hard to be specific, upload some PKMs, so people can have a look.

I have only conceded one goal so far in the first 15 minutes of any game ( that was an 11th minute own goal by the keeper) while scoring 29 goals in the first 15 minutes, 9 of which were in the first 5 minutes of the game.

[deathspawn666]

The best way to find out is watch the first few minutes on full and see where each of their early goals goes come from, who is conceding it, are players missing the tackles etc, are they shooting from range from the off with no one closing down etc. Without actually seeing the goals you are conceding, hard to be specific, upload some PKMs, so people can have a look.

I have only conceded one goal so far in the first 15 minutes of any game ( that was an 11th minute own goal by the keeper) while scoring 29 goals in the first 15 minutes, 9 of which were in the first 5 minutes of the game.

there is noone missing tackles (shako, hummels, Pepe), what they are missing is the marking against some stupid player who has all stats inferior to them and have lower morale then my players.
as for the long shots it's usually from 1/4 of the field and my DM apparently refuses to mark him no matter what i tell to him...
oh and one more thing, this happens against lower reputation teams which no matter what teamtalk i use (reloaded a couple of games to try them all) my players will just have their heads on the clouds, against high reputation teams my defenders are always good, for example against barcelona villa and messi are very well marked through the whole game

[themadsheep2001]

there is noone missing tackles (shako, hummels, Pepe), what they are missing is the marking against some stupid player who has all stats inferior to them and have lower morale then my players.
as for the long shots it's usually from 1/4 of the field and my DM apparently refuses to mark him no matter what i tell to him...

Like i said, upload some PKMs so people can have a look, makes it easier for people to analyse and help. Get and idea of how of your shape is playing out on the pitch.

[deathspawn666]

Like i said, upload some PKMs so people can have a look, makes it easier for people to analyse and help. Get and idea of how of your shape is playing out on the pitch.

it ain't a tactical problem, it's a morale/teamtalk problem because my defenders make those mistakes when they are nervous. i have the best Ass manager from the game and their morale is most of the times excellent, but then Ass manager makes the teamtalk, teamtalk screen shows their reaction is fine but then when game starts they are nervous, seriously wtf. on top of that add the fact that AI loosing 3-0 doesn't affect their morale, evey AI player will still play as if they could change the result and we know that hardly happens however ingame AI always seems to believe it's possible on every match

[ambi!]

I have been following the discussion here. Then I played Rubin away with Arsenal (won the first leg at home 4-0), losing 6-4 having 17 shots, 12 on target, 9 CCC. Rubin had 10 shots, 6 on target, 2 ccc.

I would be very interested too see what I did wrong. I played a slow control strategy with the aim of keeping the ball. When I saw there was space as Rubin was pushing up their d-line I used the shouts pass into space and retain possesion. Also I played with a lower d-line as usual as Rubin played two fast strikers (Martins and Valdez)

Link to the pkm:

http://www.file-upload.net/download-...senal.pkm.html

[BiggusD]

I have been following the discussion here. Then I played Rubin away with Arsenal (won the first leg at home 4-0), losing 6-4 having 17 shots, 12 on target, 9 CCC. Rubin had 10 shots, 6 on target, 2 ccc.

I would be very interested too see what I did wrong. I played a slow control strategy with the aim of keeping the ball. When I saw there was space as Rubin was pushing up their d-line I used the shouts pass into space and retain possesion. Also I played with a lower d-line as usual as Rubin played two fast strikers (Martins and Valdez)

Link to the pkm:

http://www.file-upload.net/download-...senal.pkm.html

Complacency?

[AcidBurn]

I just played Fulham with my Sunderland side and won 9-3, I only had 2 clear cut chances. Never had a game where my attackers were so successful in creating goals from nothing.

[ambi!]

Complacency?

Yes, some of players were complacent. Probably because we destroyed Rubin the home game and because of my low manager rep. But is it not totally unrealistic to concede 6 (!!) goals because of complacency?

[deathspawn666]

I just played Fulham with my Sunderland side and won 9-3, I only had 2 clear cut chances. Never had a game where my attackers were so successful in creating goals from nothing.

CCC is the worst stat you can use to analyse a match because the CCC in FM12 is just absurd and many IRL CCC aren't counted as CCC ingame. You should use check shots on target + morale/motivation.

[AcidBurn]

CCC is the worst stat you can use to analyse a match because the CCC in FM12 is just absurd and many IRL CCC aren't counted as CCC ingame. You should use check shots on target + morale/motivation.

I was just surprised we scored so many, we usually create 4-6 CCC's a game. I don't just analyse a game based on CCC's and nothing else.

[deathspawn666]

Complacency?

and how is that the managers fault? oh right it ain't because the teamtalks won't solve that

[deathspawn666]

I was just surprised we scored so many, we usually create 4-6 CCC's a game. I don't just analyse a game based on CCC's and nothing else.

well by the way you wrote i understood it was but as i said if your morale is good and you made a good teamtalk your strikers/attacking midfielders can very well have the best day of their lives

[BiggusD]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This was what caused three of the goals. Your back four backing off until it was too late. In other words, a too passive defense and acres of space on the flanks.

[AcidBurn]

well by the way you wrote i understood it was but as i said if your morale is good and you made a good teamtalk your strikers/attacking midfielders can very well have the best day of their lives

I can see how you thought that but anyone that judges the whole game by CCC's only is a bit of an idiot.

Morale was reasonably good at the time and for some reason every other shot we had went in, it was great just wish it happened more often lol.

[BiggusD]

and how is that the managers fault? oh right it ain't because the teamtalks won't solve that

In cup matches? I agree team talks won't fix complacency entirely, but the right one should keep them focused enough to avoid defeat from motivational issues alone. In this case, though, Arsenal was leaky because of tactical dispositions while a lack of focus clearly didn't help.

I always pick the Assertive "second leg" warning against complacency when leading on aggregate while being favourites. Always worked for me.

[ambi!]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This was what caused three of the goals. Your back four backing off until it was too late. In other words, a too passive defense and acres of space on the flanks.

Thanks for looking into the pkm!

I used the drop deeper shout as they had very pacey strikers, but because of my team closing down often on default ("press more") it looks like my d-line was still too high (it was on the 10th notch). Interestingly my d-line would have been deeper had I played with "stand off more", but then the defense would have been even less inclined to close down.

[BiggusD]

Thanks for looking into the pkm!

I used the drop deeper shout as they had very pacey strikers, but because of my team closing down often on default ("press more") it looks like my d-line was still too high (it was on the 10th notch). Interestingly my d-line would have been deeper had I played with "stand off more", but then the defense would have been even less inclined to close down.

I would rather have left Mertesacker in London and played exactly like you do at home, and let Martins be Martins. Your tactical changes made your tactic worse because "drop deeper" alone isn't enough to create a solid defensive version of your attacking tactic. Imho keeping in mind the idea that the end product of the changes you make through shouts should be an independently functional, logically sound tactic is absolutely essential if there is to be a point to using that strategy at all.

[ambi!]

I would rather have left Mertesacker in London and played exactly like you do at home, and let Martins be Martins. Your tactical changes made your tactic worse because "drop deeper" alone isn't enough to create a solid defensive version of your attacking tactic. Imho keeping in mind the idea that the end product of the changes you make through shouts should be an independently functional, logically sound tactic is absolutely essential if there is to be a point to using that strategy at all.

Mertesacker was warming the bench. I played with Koscielny and Djourou who have decent pace. I replayed the match btw playing a very deep defense and low closing down and the result was an even game that I lost 1-2. Now I will try my regular high pressing short passing control strategy and see what happens. Note that I really do not see the use of shouts anymore if they really disrupt my tactic lke you state. If a TC tactic will be messed up by shouts then what is the use of them?

[cemendur88]

Mertesacker was warming the bench. I played with Koscielny and Djourou who have decent pace. I replayed the match btw playing a very deep defense and low closing down and the result was an even game that I lost 1-2. Now I will try my regular high pressing short passing control strategy and see what happens. Note that I really do not see the use of shouts anymore if they really disrupt my tactic lke you state. If a TC tactic will be messed up by shouts then what is the use of them?

Shouts work fine, just asking your team to sit deep isn't the best idea against a team who will be attacking at home as all you are doing is giving them time on the ball.

[ambi!]

Shouts work fine, just asking your team to sit deep isn't the best idea against a team who will be attacking at home as all you are doing is giving them time on the ball.

I see your point, but all did Rubin did was boot long balls to Martins and Valdez so it made perfect sense. I guess that me being the slight favourite away after having won the home leg 4-0 might not have been enough for them to play defensively (in which case drop deeper would have been fine to create space). It is really difficult to make the right choices in FM2012!

[BiggusD]

Mertesacker was warming the bench. I played with Koscielny and Djourou who have decent pace. I replayed the match btw playing a very deep defense and low closing down and the result was an even game that I lost 1-2. Now I will try my regular high pressing short passing control strategy and see what happens. Note that I really do not see the use of shouts anymore if they really disrupt my tactic lke you state. If a TC tactic will be messed up by shouts then what is the use of them?

If you ask them to drop deeper without also adjusting mentality and closing down, you will have a mess of a tactic. You don't even know how much deeper they will drop or if changing from closing down more to default will be enough. The width you played with was also an issue in the Anzi-match you uploaded. Unless you know these things, shouts are shots in the dark and yes then you shouldn't use them.

[king sisqo]

The AI cheats hard. there shots is concise when clear despite how low calibre the finisher is. ive noticed my strikers always denied one on one despite how much composure concentration, finishing dribbling aswell as all that off the ball anticipation and i must note on the preffered foot his is happening to. and i mean a weak team. also for example. why is west brom and wolves so deadly at finishing despite how they are in real life?
and lastly the AI will rob you for the whole match. u throw everthing at them. its 1-0 to yo or 0-0 a match u dominated. then 80+ mins comes to play. have u noticed how many highlights you get against you with you whole team having a hard time where they will suddently score and injury time of 3mins extend to like 6 mins and they score in the time more they they sould of been given. BS!

Also reading got promoted. proper poor morale. no significant signings.....they ripped me apart in possesion shots and i barely had a sniff. i won match and 1-0 and i scrapped it. despite playing them twice already in the npower championship where i hammered them. ( i am southampton and promoted from the start and this is the 3rd season) my defence consisted of bassong shawcross and rolando with other equal evialent players on the side like bacinovic and jucilei omer damari and mertens etc. that is not cool cos we had high morale and non of them was over confident during start of match and my formation etc is all accomplished so whats that about?

[vilks]

Probably a noob question but what is a "CA tactic"?

[Sergey S.]

The AI cheats hard. there shots is concise when clear despite how low calibre the finisher is. ive noticed my strikers always denied one on one despite how much composure concentration, finishing dribbling aswell as all that off the ball anticipation and i must note on the preffered foot his is happening to. and i mean a weak team. also for example. why is west brom and wolves so deadly at finishing despite how they are in real life?
and lastly the AI will rob you for the whole match. u throw everthing at them. its 1-0 to yo or 0-0 a match u dominated. then 80+ mins comes to play. have u noticed how many highlights you get against you with you whole team having a hard time where they will suddently score and injury time of 3mins extend to like 6 mins and they score in the time more they they sould of been given. BS!

Also reading got promoted. proper poor morale. no significant signings.....they ripped me apart in possesion shots and i barely had a sniff. i won match and 1-0 and i scrapped it. despite playing them twice already in the npower championship where i hammered them. ( i am southampton and promoted from the start and this is the 3rd season) my defence consisted of bassong shawcross and rolando with other equal evialent players on the side like bacinovic and jucilei omer damari and mertens etc. that is not cool cos we had high morale and non of them was over confident during start of match and my formation etc is all accomplished so whats that about?

We just had 2 full pages of discussion on possible reasons for that kind of stuff to occur, did you read any of it or did you just decide to put in your rant after reading the thread title?

Upload the .pkm of your games if you really want people to try to figure out what your tactic was doing wrong in those games.

[Scab]

Probably a noob question but what is a "CA tactic"?

Counter-Attack.

[marty78]

If you ask them to drop deeper without also adjusting mentality and closing down, you will have a mess of a tactic. You don't even know how much deeper they will drop or if changing from closing down more to default will be enough. The width you played with was also an issue in the Anzi-match you uploaded. Unless you know these things, shouts are shots in the dark and yes then you shouldn't use them.

You will never know these things if you don't use them though. Shouts are brilliant IMO. I hate all that slider crap from previous versions and find the TC and shouts are easier to understand than the effects of a s**t load of sliders with thousands of possible combinations. If you want to understand what they do and how they can combine together then just watch the matches. Pre-season friendlies are ideal if you don't want to jump all in straight away.

Oh and while I may change closing down I will never change mentality when I drop deeper as a mentality change will also change d-line.

[Apos]

"It's your tactics"

At least this is what the moderators will say.

It's your tactics that your players can't convert chances a school boy would shoot fine.

It's your tactics that your players start playing dodgeball with the AI goalkeeper instead of football.

It's your tactics that your defenders can't defend for their lives.

It's your tactics that you got 3 woodworks for 4 consecutive games.

It's your tactics that you get so many own goals per season.

It's your tactics that you just had 4-5 injuries within a game. All of them for 2+ months.

It's always your tactics,because FM is loyal to "real life statistics" and that's what a simulator is all about. But when statistics don't cut it anymore, "it's only a game" and we can't expect it to be loyal to real life!

And let's not forget that something is a "bug" only when it actually annoys the moderators themselves,otherwise we are just being biased.

Just face it,hypocrisy moderates these forums. This reply will just get deleted or end up locking the thread,only a few will get to see it. How do you expect the game to improve when this has been the case for the last few years? How can the game improve when the complains of the player-base are silenced before the actual developers see them?

I've given up hope in FM. Next year we get a new match engine. That's the last chance I'm personally giving this game and it's too much already considering the way people are treated here.

[marty78]

And let's not forget that something is a "bug" only when it actually annoys the moderators themselves,otherwise we are just being biased.

Just face it,hypocrisy moderates these forums. This reply will just get deleted or end up locking the thread,only a few will get to see it. How do you expect the game to improve when this has been the case for the last few years? How can the game improve when the complains of the player-base are silenced before the actual developers see them?

Thats what the bugs forum is for is it not? Perhaps you would be better of on other forums. Oh and its your tactics.

[wwfan]

"It's your tactics"

At least this is what the moderators will say.

It's your tactics that your players can't convert chances a school boy would shoot fine.

It's your tactics that your players start playing dodgeball with the AI goalkeeper instead of football.

If you are consistently creating and missing the same type of chance, both the above are tactical. The likelihood is that you are only creating one good type of chance, which always fall to the same player. If that player is having a bad day (low on confidence, nervous, poor morale, or just out of form) then you will see the many shots, no goals scenario. A good talk with him might help, but not as much as developing a tactic that doesn't rely on one dimensional chances. If you do that, many players will be scoring, so a single player having a bad day won't matter as much.

It's your tactics that your defenders can't defend for their lives.

I agree.

It's your tactics that you got 3 woodworks for 4 consecutive games.

No, that's a minor bug.

It's your tactics that you get so many own goals per season.

Also a minor bug.

It's your tactics that you just had 4-5 injuries within a game. All of them for 2+ months.

That is something you are doing. Likely to be related to tactics, training and squad management.

It's always your tactics,because FM is loyal to "real life statistics" and that's what a simulator is all about. But when statistics don't cut it anymore, "it's only a game" and we can't expect it to be loyal to real life!

And let's not forget that something is a "bug" only when it actually annoys the moderators themselves,otherwise we are just being biased.

Just face it,hypocrisy moderates these forums. This reply will just get deleted or end up locking the thread,only a few will get to see it. How do you expect the game to improve when this has been the case for the last few years? How can the game improve when the complains of the player-base are silenced before the actual developers see them?

I've given up hope in FM. Next year we get a new match engine. That's the last chance I'm personally giving this game and it's too much already considering the way people are treated here.

The remainder of your post is total nonsense. This thread won't be closed unless people start wading in being personal. The thread about the game being too easy posted prior to 12.1 resulted in a concerted effort from developers, moderators and users to discover what the issue was. A successful concerted effort too. If I think somebody has discovered a genuinely new and big bug, I'll personally report it to Paul.

[wwfan]

If you ask them to drop deeper without also adjusting mentality and closing down, you will have a mess of a tactic. You don't even know how much deeper they will drop or if changing from closing down more to default will be enough. The width you played with was also an issue in the Anzi-match you uploaded. Unless you know these things, shouts are shots in the dark and yes then you shouldn't use them.

I realise you are trying to be helpful, but making blanket statements about 'not using shouts' really doesn't help. A perfectly valid observation would be 'as soon as a team slider is being manually manipulated, then shouts become riskier if you don't know what you are doing'.

While I'd agree that dropping deeper when having a wide width and playing slowly is not a great thing to do, I'd argue that it was the manual width setting, not the drop deeper shout per se, that caused the problem. His team basically opened up masses of space, which was a combination of the two elements. If he had really wanted to keep things tight, he should have used 'drop deeper', 'play narrower', 'retain possession' and 'pass to feet'.

[marty78]

The remainder of your post is total nonsense. This thread won't be closed unless people start wading in being personal. The thread about the game being too easy posted prior to 12.1 resulted in a concerted effort from developers, moderators and users to discover what the issue was. A successful concerted effort too. If I think somebody has discovered a genuinely new and big bug, I'll personally report it to Paul.

Is that why the morale and effects of team talks based on rep were tweaked?

[wwfan]

Is that why the morale and effects of team talks based on rep were tweaked?

It was never team talks. It was the morale generated by wins and losses, which was too stable. Hence, if you won your opening couple of games, the team would remain happy and continue to play well. However, if you lost them, everybody would be in fits of despair.

The key change was sorting out corner deliveries and AI corner choices.

[Coentrao]

Regarding injuries, a lot of injuries seems to be caused by hard tackling from the AI, at least they are normally after challenges.

What exactly can you do to avoid that?

[Scab]

Rotate so you don't have low-condition players on the field (increased injury risk) and don't respond in kind (increased number of dangerous situations). If the pitch is bad, focus play on the less chewed-up flanks. Apart from that, not a whole lot I think. Facing a lot of hard-tackling, dirty opponents is risky. In the longer term, injury proneness should probably be a factor to consider seriously in squad building.

[marty78]

It was never team talks. It was the morale generated by wins and losses, which was too stable. Hence, if you won your opening couple of games, the team would remain happy and continue to play well. However, if you lost them, everybody would be in fits of despair.

The key change was sorting out corner deliveries and AI corner choices.

Ok thanks. I thought it had also become more difficult to motivate your players if you had a low rep.

Regarding injuries, a lot of injuries seems to be caused by hard tackling from the AI, at least they are normally after challenges.

What exactly can you do to avoid that?

I read elsewhere that while injury figures were realistic too many injuries happen in match situations, would you agree? It might be rubbish as I haven't compared stats but since reading that most injuries in my save are on a matchday. Training injuries only seem to be bruises etc and don't last long.

[BiggusD]

I realise you are trying to be helpful, but making blanket statements about 'not using shouts' really doesn't help. A perfectly valid observation would be 'as soon as a team slider is being manually manipulated, then shouts become riskier if you don't know what you are doing'.

While I'd agree that dropping deeper when having a wide width and playing slowly is not a great thing to do, I'd argue that it was the manual width setting, not the drop deeper shout per se, that caused the problem. His team basically opened up masses of space, which was a combination of the two elements. If he had really wanted to keep things tight, he should have used 'drop deeper', 'play narrower', 'retain possession' and 'pass to feet'.

Yes that was really what I was saying. Just dropping deeper very likely made his tactic worse in this match because the back four was backing off 20 meters before the full back decided it was time to close down, and when he did he just made things even worse because he opened up more space for Ansaldi to cross into. This was the third time Anzi did the exact same thing in this match. The other three goals were more random, but two of them included loss of possession in very dangerous places, so passing shorter and playing slower (possibly including Holding Up Ball) would not be strategies I would implement in such a match where my team would be naturally unfocused and their team desperately aggressive.

Exactly what to do with this tactic and this team in this match I don't know, but I do know the first thing I would set Heaven and Earth in motion to prevent is that disparage between defensive line (the spot where the defenders stop backing off), closing down (the spot where the individual player leaves his position) and mentality (the willingness to try a tackle). If these are adequately aligned in the original starting tactic, just clicking on "drop deeper" may in some cases disrupt the whole defensive balance of the tactic leading to silly behaviour like for instance a full back sprinting out of his correct position towards their winger before following him all the way to the corner flag and then letting him cross. Or as in this case, backing off holding the line until it is too late, and then leaving his position at the worst possible moment. The right combination of shouts in addition to "drop deeper", however, would of course let the user maintain balance while denying the opponent space, just like you said.

[scott MUFC]

starting to do my head in, 2 more goals conceded in a game, 2 penaltys, one guy stood there and got "shirt pulled" right after a kick off (ha that dumb kick off no player tackles junk) and a dive, My players always get punished for diving, yet thiers rarely do.

[Redbyrd]

Whereas on a artificial construct Luck or God definitely doesn't exist.

There's an idea for the FM2013 new feature list.

[Sardaukar]

I restarted my CL game with Man City vs. AC Milan twice...since Joe Hart conceded 2 own goals from back-passes in both. Was not amused.

I have played FM (and CM before) since 99-00. Most versions have been improvement over previous ones, but AI is AI. It took ages to make machine to beat top human chess player..and that is quite limited game compared to options AI has to consider.

FM12 still does some annoying things, like what I used to call "stealth injuries" to your players and their players can score statistically better than yours. When getting really annoyed, I just press "Tactics" and "Quit Game & Exit". Restart usually does wonders to my morale...bringing it from "Poor" to "Good".

It's still good game and AI feelings are not hurt.

[ambi!]

I really feel like giving up on the game completely. I play Wolves away with Arsenal. Odds are 3.2 - 2, so I am the favourite. I play a slow possesion based control tactic. have 60% possession, 6 shots all on target, no goals. The first cross that Kightly gave was converted by Fletcher (header): 1-0 for Wolves. This was their first shot in the game (8th minute) In the OIt he instructions I gave on Kightly were show on left foot, closing down always and tackling hard. What did my LB (Gibbs) do? He showed him outside en did not close down or tackle he gave him the amount of space I would expect with closing down never and tackling easy. I gave tight marking instructions on Fletcher, but Coscielny just forgot about him and left Sagna to pick him up who lost the header.

In the rest of the match chances were evenly distributed but possesion remained on 55%.

I am really at a loss here as the game gave me the signals that my strategy was spot on, the assman comment also stated this. Then they get one shot on target and bam! it is a goal.

For people that are interested here is the pkm:

http://www.file-upload.net/download-...senal.pkm.html

[Scab]

Whereas on a artificial construct Luck or God definitely doesn't exist.

There's an idea for the FM2013 new feature list.

The outcome of the random number generator - what allows the concept of chance to exist in the game in the first place - is kinda luck, no?

[Coentrao]

I read elsewhere that while injury figures were realistic too many injuries happen in match situations, would you agree? It might be rubbish as I haven't compared stats but since reading that most injuries in my save are on a matchday. Training injuries only seem to be bruises etc and don't last long.

That's the impression i get, i don't have an issue with the overall number of injuries but the number of in-game injuries just seems way too high, and the whole hard tackling from the AI seems to be the culprit most times, specially if there's a considerable difference on the physical attributes between the players envolved.

[Äktsjon Männ]

I really feel like giving up on the game completely. I play Wolves away with Arsenal. Odds are 3.2 - 2, so I am the favourite. I play a slow possesion based control tactic. have 60% possession, 6 shots all on target, no goals. The first cross that Kightly gave was converted by Fletcher (header): 1-0 for Wolves. This was their first shot in the game (8th minute) In the OIt he instructions I gave on Kightly were show on left foot, closing down always and tackling hard. What did my LB (Gibbs) do? He showed him outside en did not close down or tackle he gave him the amount of space I would expect with closing down never and tackling easy. I gave tight marking instructions on Fletcher, but Coscielny just forgot about him and left Sagna to pick him up who lost the header.

In the rest of the match chances were evenly distributed but possesion remained on 55%.

I am really at a loss here as the game gave me the signals that my strategy was spot on, the assman comment also stated this. Then they get one shot on target and bam! it is a goal.

For people that are interested here is the pkm:

http://www.file-upload.net/download-...senal.pkm.html

He just got caught out. You're playing a 4-1-2-2-1 with attacking wingers who in this ME basically play as strikers and never track back (especially on attacking mentality), leaving your full backs constantly one on one with the opposition wingers. I'm assuming your full backs have either support or attack duties (maybe even wing back roles) which expects them to get forward and not mark tightly. In that move for the Wolves goal Gibbs actually does close down and attempt to tackle but that's the problem - he isn't in a position to do so. He's holding his position and not getting tight which is what he's instructed to do. But then Kightly gets the ball, he recognizes the close down and tackle OI's and because he's the only player in a postition to do so tries to close down and make the tackle. He simply gets his angles wrong and is beaten by Kightly. Sagna picks up Fletcher at the back post because it's his zone. If you want Koscielny to always mark Fletcher you need to set specific marking instructions - that's the only way of getting man marking in FM. You also shouldn't set all three of close down often/show inside/tackle hard on opposition wingers - you need to pick whether you want your full back to shepherd him into your centre halves OR play him aggressively. He can't do both at once.

[aderow]

He just got caught out. You're playing a 4-1-2-2-1 with attacking wingers who in this ME basically play as strikers and never track back (especially on attacking mentality),

Thats something I don't like. Gotta have them man marking.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Thats something I don't like. Gotta have them man marking.

Specific man marking helps. But they still won't track back consistently, especially on attacking mentalities. Personally I don't use them at all. Can get pretty much similar attacking impact out of the ML/R position but you'll also get a defensive effort.