Game feels fixed thread!

[TAV2]

This is not the usual I had 30 shots a and got beat 1-0 thread, no i hope to think i have more class than that

What iv noticed since playing FM12 is that the game seems to elect a rival who is best placed to challenge you for the title and they always do. Has anyone else witnessed some freaky win streaks from the teams behind you in the league? Palermo in my game (5th season) went on a 13 game winning run to cut my lead drastically. They actually lost the last game but this still gave them 15 wins from 17 to come 2nd 3 points behind me. This is not a one off.

2 seasons as Barca manager before this i won the league twice. This was Real's results 28-5-5, then 30-4-4 (Win-Draw-Lose). I had to play out of my skin to win those two titles. Now I have left there season went as follows 22-15-1. They barely even challenged the wonder team i built at Barca when i was gone! Nothing changed except there was no human manager in the league.

Only one of the seasons so far have i blown the other teams away. This was in fact with Liverpool 2nd season where i got 102 points and was 14 clear by the end. The only difference here was my team wasnt favourites for the title or anywhere near it. I have a theory that the game realises that when you are favourite you will probably win the title so to keep you interested in the game it "enhances" another teams ability.

I know it sounds crazy (alcohol also doesnt help) but i believe it to be true. Got any other believers out there?


Please read thread before posting. There has been a lot of help from other members to explain what is happening here and why its doing it. I wholeheartedly no longer believe its down to a deliberate mechanism placed in the game.

[marty78]

It is probably just paranoia but yes I've had that feeling also. One season in EPL Chelsea didn't lose a match after October and I finished second with 92 points IIRC. The season I just finished had FOUR teams on over eighty points and I won the league with 101pts but Man City finished 2nd with 92 pts. Everyone from thirteenth down had 36 points or less. This is actually one of my biggest gripes about the game. In the EPL at least, the bottom teams score too few points and the top too many.

[TAV2]

This was actually my 6th season another trend i have noticed -

Palermo got enough points this year to clearly win the league in any other of the 5 years. Real (when i was at Barca for 2 seasons) got more points in those seasons than they got in the other 4 without me. If a human controlled favourite team over exceeds, then so will an AI team to make it a "challenge".

[TAV2]

Yeah the premier league is so messed up in the game. Most leagues only have a few great teams but by season 3 you can have 7 genuine title challengers in the league. Makes it crazy!

[Coentrao]

With Shrewsbury i spend several seasons finishing second because i couldn't stop Manchester City, when they finally collapse and have a horrible campaign, Everton turns into this unstoppable machine that just wouldn't lose, i managed to win the title though.

[gate]

To me FM2012 is not a "game by game" based simulation. It's more like a script based. Every thing you do in the game has more or less impact on performance on pitch.

When you are into some certain scene, like "your team slump", you have very little thing to turn it around immediately. The script is so decisive, so your 11 world class players on pitch will act like idiot all 90 mins. You concede long shoot to player who doesn't have required attribute to do so. You will see opposite player who has 5 on jump and header outplay your commanding center back to score a header. I'm not saying it didn't not happen in RL, but it happen more often in FM if you get your team in slump. All this have little thing to do with attribute of your player, tactics. You have to use the "new feature" (team talk, team meeting, individual talk, match preparation, etc...) SI provided to get out of it.

If you are the favorite to win tittle, the script will generate a opposite to make sure your game challenging. In my Bayern game. It's Koeln. They perform like Barc in my game and I have no idea why I can not beat them as Bayern.

Some feel FM is more like a job IRL, not a game they can enjoy after a hard working day. I myself share, more or less, the same feeling and reduced my time on playing FM.

[Porthos]

Exactly this. Real Madrid's lowest ever point total was 87. That's in 10 seasons of 2nd place. They've had over 94 4 times.

[S2008]

I've went back to FM 2011 because this version winds me up too much- with this new patch there has been a massive increase in injuries and in general its not doing my blood pressure any good.

[scott MUFC]

dominate a team from start to finish, go 4-0 up they get a goal from 2 passes directly from a kickoff.
poorer opposition have a better strike rate then you. because thier keeper magically holds the ball when they were on the other side of the goal.
had a player score 2 goals from 2 shots on target, then every other one after that missed by miles.
o now the ball hits keeper but bounces to thier player..
i hate all these away matches in cups against weaker teams when i want to rest players.

players morale is abysmill after playing 90 minutes and being on the winning team? wtf

[The Hand of God]

The real question is not whether there's a script (there's not) but the relative amount of pressure that falls upon the 1st place team and the 2nd place team. From my own experiences as both the challenging club and the frontrunner club, it does seem that the frontrunner is more likely to choke after fending off an extended title challenge while it does seem a bit easier to maintain very high morale as the 2nd place team.

This doesn't mean the game is fixed. Everything is a matter of probabilities (and I've had seasons where I left all competitors in the dust), but it is possible that there is a hidden morale advantage to being the 2nd place challenger. Though based on my experience, it favors human players as much as the AI.

To me FM2012 is not a "game by game" based simulation. It's more like a script based.

I wouldn't describe it as "script based." Rather, everything is contextual. Being the first placed team and put on the defensive (in terms of the title race) does weigh upon your more nervous players' minds. Being the team best poised to challenge for the title does, presumably, motivate determined players. These factors can create a fairly predictable rhythm and narrative for the "average" season, but at no point does the game say "At match X, team Y collapses." There's a bit more luck to it than that.

[Zoetermeer]

It does seem like there's always some team the game has picked out to be neck-and-neck with you. In my game as Everton, we're doing quite well in third, but for some reason Stoke City has been right there with us (in fourth) all season. Pretty unrealistic that Stoke would finish in 4th in the PL this year.

[scott MUFC]

game isn't doing that to me.
it is unrealist stoke would finish 4th, but in one of mine me and city went both UNBEATEN and i won the league by 4 points on the last day, in 3rd were wolves :/

barcalonas rep is still stupidly high, i won every cup, including european, they got knocked out in 1st KO, they take 36 million for messi, he wouldn't sign :/ my rep should be plenty good enough

[aderow]

game isn't doing that to me.
it is unrealist stoke would finish 4th, but in one of mine me and city went both UNBEATEN and i won the league by 4 points on the last day, in 3rd were wolves :/

barcalonas rep is still stupidly high, i won every cup, including european, they got knocked out in 1st KO, they take 36 million for messi, he wouldn't sign :/ my rep should be plenty good enough

Or messi just doesn't want to leave the club that he loves so very very much.

[scott MUFC]

depends, i shall see in january. they do not look like a strong force in europe, and the rep differance is only 200 or something

[PinkSpeedos]

On my game Tranmere just won the last 7 games of the season in a row to knock me off the 2nd auto promotion spot, fixed i dunno, but certainly bloody annoying!

[Jor-el321]

depends, i shall see in january. they do not look like a strong force in europe, and the rep differance is only 200 or something

Sorry, stupid question but how do you get the actual figures on reputation. I currently have 4.5 stars along with Barca and Utd but i thought that the star thing was the only indicator!?!

[Eugene Tyson]

I noticed before - no matter how well I do that there's always a team right behind me in the league.

I could have 105 points and there will be a team right behind me.

Next season I might have 92 points and there is a team right around me too.


I could go the whole season without losing and there will be a team that has drawn just one game.

[dafuge]

I noticed before - no matter how well I do that there's always a team right behind me in the league.

I could have 105 points and there will be a team right behind me.

Next season I might have 92 points and there is a team right around me too.


I could go the whole season without losing and there will be a team that has drawn just one game.

I wish that was the case in my game, there's usually a gap of around 20-30 points between me and 2nd

[lam]

This is not the usual I had 30 shots a and got beat 1-0 thread, no i hope to think i have more class than that

What iv noticed since playing FM12 is that the game seems to elect a rival who is best placed to challenge you for the title and they always do. Has anyone else witnessed some freaky win streaks from the teams behind you in the league? Palermo in my game (5th season) went on a 13 game winning run to cut my lead drastically. They actually lost the last game but this still gave them 15 wins from 17 to come 2nd 3 points behind me. This is not a one off.

So..... they didn't beat you?

2 seasons as Barca manager before this i won the league twice. This was Real's results 28-5-5, then 30-4-4 (Win-Draw-Lose). I had to play out of my skin to win those two titles. Now I have left there season went as follows 22-15-1. They barely even challenged the wonder team i built at Barca when i was gone! Nothing changed except there was no human manager in the league.

So.... they didn't beat you?

Only one of the seasons so far have i blown the other teams away. This was in fact with Liverpool 2nd season where i got 102 points and was 14 clear by the end. The only difference here was my team wasnt favourites for the title or anywhere near it. I have a theory that the game realises that when you are favourite you will probably win the title so to keep you interested in the game it "enhances" another teams ability.

So..... some poor AI manager is sitting there crying in his soup as some super human manager has led the poor Liverpool side to a win

[Eugene Tyson]

I wish that was the case in my game, there's usually a gap of around 20-30 points between me and 2nd

I get that sometimes. But not often. What league are you playing?

[dafuge]

I get that sometimes. But not often. What league are you playing?

I'm in Northern Ireland, which probably explains it. The other clubs really struggle to keep up with me.

[Eugene Tyson]

I've never played the NI league, so I can't really compare it to anything

[dafuge]

The AI clubs are pretty useless and lack ambition, unlike in the major leagues where the AI clubs at least make an attempt to keep up with the biggest club in the league.

[ljwjones]

Sorry, stupid question but how do you get the actual figures on reputation. I currently have 4.5 stars along with Barca and Utd but i thought that the star thing was the only indicator!?!

It is not a stupid question at all, some players choose to look at the reputation using an additional program. I think it sort of ruins the game a bit as you can do it to see players potential as well. If real life managers could do this then it would be included in the game, but it is not, so I don't use it.
But yeh to clarify you get an external program that will give a number representation of reputation for a club. And players will give "PA" and "CA" as people refer to them here on the forums.

[Sussex Hammer]

Must confess I think tactics have about a ten game life span in FM12. Gawd knows how many times I have started again on creating one when your great run comes crashing to an end and your title winning form becomes relegation form in two weeks!! However I had a reversal in fortunes for a change with my Hammers fighting for promotion. I had lost my way but then went on a great run shooting up from 7th to 3rd in the table approaching the last two games. Going in to the last two I needed to win both and Bristol City needed to lose both their games for me to gain automatic promotion. The problem was they had a home game v Hull who hadn't won in 7. Hull promptly beat them 3-0 and then they lost their last away at Ipswich whereas I won my last two so getting that second slot. Bristol also got knocked out of the Play Offs. I could only put it down to them bottling it. But nice that it goes the other way sometimes!!

[TAV2]

lam- Yeah i won the league every time but what im getting at is that I believe the Game made sure that at least one rival to the title kept with me all the way to the end. It didnt feel as if every AI result went through a bit of program code to calculate WIN,LOSE or DRAW. More like one team got a giant big IF statement reading something like 'IF challenger then result = WIN'.

Its obivious too that the program favours the Users, thats why we get teams from non league to champions league. Its not only down to poor AI squad building and poor tactics. I still feel we have a percentage edge over the AI when calculating results.

[scott MUFC]

AI is parking the bus. stoke and orwich play a back 4 with 2 cover
just faced a liverpool side with only 3 players up front, rest in a triangle shape in thier half O.O

[Unknown Hacker]

1st year in Dutch League Ajax win with 66 points.
2nd year I win with FC Zwolle and 72 points. Ajax and Alkmaar both get 71.
3rd year Ajax win with 78. I come second with 73.
4th year I win with 77. Feyenoord come second on goal difference.
5th year I win with 96 points. Feyenoord get 90 and only lose their two games against me, but Roda JC also get 87 points. I lose only two games all year and I still spend most of the season in third place...

I don't mind to be honest but it does seem a little strange that two other teams can now rattle off 30 game unbeaten runs whe they are cack in Europe and I win the ECL.

[TAV2]

I have came back to this thread as I feel iv got pretty good data that shows the AI does give your rivals a 'Boost' when you are all conquering.

I have completed 8 seasons now in the game and managed teams in 3 different nations. Whilst i was manager in each league the points totals were at their highest and AI teams always came close to me. This is what i found.

3 years at Liverpool

Man U & Chelsea get 87 points 1st season - Thats enough to win the league on 5 occassions and both teams greatest ever total points over the 8yrs.

2 years at Barcelona

Real in 5th season get 94 points - Thats enough to win the league on 6 occassions and by far their best ever points total over the 8yrs.

3 years at Inter

Palermo 8th season get 84 points - Thats enough to win the league on 5 occassions and their best ever points total over the 8yrs.

Each time I left the countries the points totals went down. The teams that had their best ever points totals never got close to them again even though they had same managers and players mostly. Has anyone else noticed this happening?

[Kenco]

Hmm, this always seems to work the other way for me. AI team appears to be running away with the league, my team looks out of the running. AI team falters at the run-in, whilst my team hits form and pips them to the post.

Love this game.

[TAV2]

What about when you are leading the race from the start? Do you just run away with it by 20 points or something? You still say your pipping them to the post so im guessing the points totals are close as i am saying.

[tomtuck01]

The game isn't fixed.

[TAV2]

The game isn't fixed.

Explain the points totals then? Why do the challengers have their best seasons when im in the league getting bigger ones?

[tomtuck01]

Explain the points totals then? Why do the challengers have their best seasons when im in the league getting bigger ones?

Because they have improved and therefore performed better? They are allowed to you know, just like in real life.

[TAV2]

Because they have improved and therefore performed better? They are allowed to you know, just like in real life.

Why do they improve when I am in their league and suddenly go back to normal when i have left? 3 different leagues over 8 years mate! Each time 2nd place teams are performing better than previous (and future) champions.

[tomtuck01]

Why do they improve when I am in their league and suddenly go back to normal when i have left? 3 different leagues over 8 years mate! Each time 2nd place teams are performing better than previous (and future) champions.

Firstly, I am not your mate.

Secondly, you are simply looking for things that aren't there.

[achilles-the-victorious]

I think there is a morale boost involved, for the chasing team, but more than that, I don't think so. I have had my share of close title run-ins thats for sure, incl. ending tied for point with two other clubs and having the league taken from me on the basis of Head to Head (whereas I would have won, if it was decided on goal difference).

I got 94 points one year, Inter got 97! I try not to follow scores during my teams games because even though a rival losing is as advantageous to me as my side winning its completely out of my hands. I check when the game is over

[TAV2]

Haha mate your not very good at this are you? I have proven they are there! I have data that confirms the facts and trends that I am talking about. Il go get more examples to show you when i come round for our sleepover

[tomtuck01]

Haha mate your not very good at this are you? I have proven they are there! I have data that confirms the facts and trends that I am talking about. Il go get more examples to show you when i come round for our sleepover

You haven't proved anything with a few seasons in one save.

Do it a few more times, collect the data, and then give the results. Until then, get back in your box, and stop embarrassing yourself with this ridiculous train of thought.

[TAV2]

The only thing ridiculous in this threat is your horrible sense of humour and completely out of place aggressive attitude. Im voicing my opinion with facts to go along with it, thats alot more than some folk on these forums do. Please leave my thread if you cant behave!

[tomtuck01]

The only thing ridiculous in this threat is your horrible sense of humour and completely out of place aggressive attitude. Im voicing my opinion with facts to go along with it, thats alot more than some folk on these forums do. Please leave my thread if you cant behave!

Your data is not conclusive.

I am not been aggresive in the slightest.

You are being a bit precious.

Like I said, go do the same again. And again. And again. Then your data will be a bit meaningful and the results more reliable.

[afced7]

Well I've won the league seven seasons in a row, and it was only close once, so I have data that proves you wrong.

[tomtuck01]

Well I've won the league seven seasons in a row, and it was only close once, so I have data that proves you wrong.

Ssshhhhhh! If you don't agree with him and his "data" he will banish you from the thread!

[afced7]

I don't care, its a ludicrous thread anyway. 8 seasons is nothing. He already admitted he was drunk when he came up with his 'theory' in the OP, why would anybody believe this rubbish?

[tomtuck01]

I don't care, its a ludicrous thread anyway. 8 seasons is nothing. He already admitted he was drunk when he came up with his 'theory' in the OP, why would anybody believe this rubbish?

Exactly what I was saying.

Fair enough if the data is compiled on various saves over a number of seasons. But eight seasons in one save is nothing, and thus can't prove such a theory.

[Kriss]

I have a theory that the game realises that when you are favourite you will probably win the title so to keep you interested in the game it "enhances" another teams ability.

I know it sounds crazy (alcohol also doesnt help) but i believe it to be true. Got any other believers out there?

Utter tosh tbh, the game has no way to do that.
The only awareness the game has of you is that other teams take your reputation and form into account when deciding how to play against you.

[TAV2]

Im loving this so will continue taking my career through Europes top clubs giving their rivals the best seasons they will ever have! Its a shame they wont win the title though, im awesome.

Yeah i had a few when i started this thread but the same results appeared on my screen the next morning.

afced7 - what team were you managing and what season did you start your winning run? I am treating this seriously and going to try and get more data as im sure there is a link with some code here.

[afced7]

Man Utd- started in the first season, the points totals of the top three have been:
2011-12 1st. Man Utd 101, 2nd. Arsenal 83, 3rd. Liverpool 81
2012-13 1st. Man Utd 95, 2nd. Man City 86, 3rd. Arsenal 80
2013-14 1st. Man Utd 102, 2nd. Spurs 83, 3rd. Arsenal 80
2014-15 1st. Man Utd 98, 2nd. Man City 81, 3rd. Liverpool 79
2015-16 1st. Man Utd 102, 2nd. Man City 83, 3rd. Spurs 73
2016-17 1st. Man Utd 97, 2nd. Man City 93, 3rd. Chelsea 80 (The only close season)
2017-18 1st. Man Utd 96, 2nd. Man City 83, 3rd. Chelsea 80

[Kenco]

Compare it to real life and how many times do you see one team run away with the EPL? Very rarely, it's usually at least a two-horse race.

[psychedelicbeast]

This happens in almost every season for me. But does happen both ways. Initially I take over a relatively weak team, which in the first season, barely manages to stay in the league withotu getting relegated. Second season, I play absolutely pathetically initially and languish in 16th spot, but suddenly win 12 out of 14 or something , while every team above me till 4rth or 5th place starts droppign points big time, and I end up between 4rth and 6th. Third season (sometimes 4rth), I take an insane lead initially against all odds and am 14 points foff the top, adn then suddenly start losing regularly, while atleast 1 team below me WINS EVERY GAME, and finally wins the head to head (which is among the last 5 games of the season), and take the championship , while I come 3rd or something. Next season, I win title. Somehow this happens in every game, with nearly every team I play Fixed? I dunno. But the game definitely tries to increase your odds of progress when you are lower down the table, while majorly increasing the winning probability of atleast one rival when you are leading the table.

[TAV2]

Finished my 9th season after moving to Dortmund in November time. I got them playing football again and got them moving up the league in style. Everything was going well but of course my presence in the league didnt go unnoticed!

Fc Bayern - 81 points (Largest Points total over the 9 years)

Stuttgart - 79 points (Would of won the league every single other year)

Would love to hear peoples thoughts about this. Mine have already been said to death in the above posts

[Barside]

This is something that I am currently monitoring on my save, before I became a genuine title contender in Germany 75 points would have been good enough to win 11 out of the previous 18 seasons with the highest ever points total being 85 & the lowest 63, in the last 5 seasons the second place team has finished on 79, 75, 79, 83 & 78.

Goal difference has seen a similar increase with a GD of +40 being par for the title winners & runners-up in those first 17 seasons, all of a sudden with my team hitting +60 or more the runners-up are matching my GD.

Part of this will be down to the fact that after I took up a job in Germany (13 seasons ago) I changed the processing to full detail & I accept that it is part of a leagues natural evolution that if a team smashes all previous records the rest will be forced to improve but it is the frequency of these improvements & how quickly it happens that has always concerned me.

The real test is going to be when I leave my current job & move to another nation, this time the full detail aspect will not apply as I've been running the top 2 divisions of every nation in full detail for the last 10 seasons, it will be interesting to see if the benchmark in Germany drops & the one in whatever nation I moved to rises.

[Kriss]

My thoughts are that you're in cloud cuckoo land I suppose it's possible that your trampling over a lot of teams affects their morale to the extent that a couple of others get an easier ride but I'm not sure how you could even start to analyse that hypothesis.

I do know that there's no mechanism in the game to deliberately create the effect you describe so you have to look elsewhere for causation.

[Barside]

Which is why I want to see what the numbers are over 20+ seasons & in a minimum of 3 nations.

My initial thoughts are as you say that my dominance is causing a widening of the gap between top & bottom which in turn makes it easier for a few of the other larger clubs, the other factor is a change to full detail processing which again can see an increase in performance at the top end as the difference in player talent is greater than the difference in reputation.

There is always risk of memory being selective but I have always had the sense that to achieve success in any league you have to more often that not exceed or at a minimum match the highest levels of performance seen in the history of that league.

Edit: Realised that Kriss wasn't replying to my post.

[TAV2]

I can accept that there is maybe no mechanism that intentionally does this, the fact is though i have played in 4 different nations now over 9 seasons and the points totals are always greater when im in the league. Real just won their first league title in my game with 80 points. That is a shocking amount! I believe the results are processed differently somehow when the user is in a league to another league running in the game.

Thank you Barside for also having an interest in this. Its horrible thinking that its just me this was happening to.

[Barside]

TAV2, as I've mentioned in my post one of the main aspects that will throw out weird looking season totals is how the league is processed.

If you leave match processing to 'default' it will only processes competition you're entered in at full detail, every other competition will be sim'd which will add to the false sense that the AI is automatically upping its game when you turn up.

[TAV2]

Man Utd- started in the first season, the points totals of the top three have been:
2011-12 1st. Man Utd 101, 2nd. Arsenal 83, 3rd. Liverpool 81
2012-13 1st. Man Utd 95, 2nd. Man City 86, 3rd. Arsenal 80
2013-14 1st. Man Utd 102, 2nd. Spurs 83, 3rd. Arsenal 80
2014-15 1st. Man Utd 98, 2nd. Man City 81, 3rd. Liverpool 79
2015-16 1st. Man Utd 102, 2nd. Man City 83, 3rd. Spurs 73
2016-17 1st. Man Utd 97, 2nd. Man City 93, 3rd. Chelsea 80 (The only close season)
2017-18 1st. Man Utd 96, 2nd. Man City 83, 3rd. Chelsea 80

Barside- Here in arguing his point shows yours to be valid. The points totals he achieved is in fantasy land compared to actuall totals in real life. I agree with you that if you want to win something in this game, more times than not, you have to do it with legendary style.

[Cougar2010]

What you might want to check to see if its happening is if the other "dominating" team has a fixture list that follows yours - ie they play the same team the week after you beat them.

[TAV2]

I can understand what you are saying with the processing of competitions. I never change this from the normal settings that come with the game and it makes sense that its less accurate in other leagues.

At first i thought it was something SI implemented to make the game more exciting for the user. Having a challenger who can make you sweat and make you work for every title. Now i can see its nothing more than accidental programing that has caused this effect to happen.

[Barside]

What you might want to check to see if its happening is if the other "dominating" team has a fixture list that follows yours - ie they play the same team the week after you beat them.

This is something I am tracking. What I'm interested in is if when there is a surprise contender is it because they always play the same side after you do.

[TAV2]

Just looked at Palermo's season when they were right up there with me and there fixtures pretty much followed mine. They even beat me 1-0 at San Siro without having a shot in the 3rd league game. Their morale would of been sky high and they would of been playing teams who have just been destroyed by 5+ goals only a week or two before by me. My presence in the league playing great football seems to cause a crazy shift in morale.

Why didnt opposing managers seeing how well my team was playing not use the 'go out and play with no pressure' to help maintain morale?

[penza]

Yeah the game's really good now ... the last patches fixed most bugs! even played a network game and I took tottenham my mate arsenal and we both fought with each the title (he had 92pts I had 91pts) and man utd 82pts however they were there till the 35th match day!! they dropped form because they focused on the FA cup and CL where they beat my mate 3-0 agg in the semis and I got beat by barcelona! 6-4agg I won the league cup and my mate the FA cup...
when playing by myself yeah the AI is very challenging.. when I took dortmund won the league by 17pts and won german cup but lost super cup and CL 1/4 finals vs Inter 2-2agg (lost on away goals) the morale seems to be way better now even with lowest manager reputation well done SI ... still corner cheat occurs but I don't use it so doesn't affect me. Hope next patch might fix some issues I get with fixtures congestion but thats nothing major to be honest!

[TAV2]

Im going to post the lowest winning four points totals in the four leagues i have played in. This is over the 9 seasons i have played so far. I know people are going to say I need to do more seasons but please just humour me. What im trying to find out is would it be possible for a User to win the title with these totals. If anyone has please let me know. Got a feeling we have to work a little bit harder than the AI.

The Premier League - 79 points

Bundesliga - 67 points

Seria A - 73 points

Liga BBVA - 80 points

Starting to believe the game is alot less accurate at producing results when the User is not in the comeptition. This leads to more random results that are in turn are more life like. Where as with the User in the league its more to do with teams attributes and ability. Of course these are values out of 20 and not dynamic like real life which an infinite amount of factors are involved in every result.

[tomtuck01]

My thoughts are that you're in cloud cuckoo land

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

This whole thing smacks of a conspiracy theory concoted by the OP because the game isn't as easy as he'd like. Paranoid doesn't begin to describe it.

Atleast he has now withdrawn the wild accusation that this, (whatever this is meant to be), is something deliberately done by SI.

[Kenco]

Im going to post the lowest winning four points totals in the four leagues i have played in. This is over the 9 seasons i have played so far. I know people are going to say I need to do more seasons but please just humour me. What im trying to find out is would it be possible for a User to win the title with these totals. If anyone has please let me know. Got a feeling we have to work a little bit harder than the AI.

The Premier League - 79 points

Bundesliga - 67 points

Seria A - 73 points

Liga BBVA - 80 points

Starting to believe the game is alot less accurate at producing results when the User is not in the comeptition. This leads to more random results that are in turn are more life like. Where as with the User in the league its more to do with teams attributes and ability. Of course these are values out of 20 and not dynamic like real life which an infinite amount of factors are involved in every result.

It's not necessarily down to the user being in the competition, but whether the competition is played on full detail or not. As you seemed to agree with earlier on today, but now seem to have forgotten about.

Your findings won't prove anything unless you ensure the other variables remain constant.

[TAV2]

tomtuck01- Im just trying to figure out why these results keep coming about. The title of the thread is 'Game Feels Fixed' and now after help from Barside and a few others i have an explanation that goes a long way to explain why this is happening on my save. It still could be complete cooincidence that the points totals are always larger when im in the league. I accept that.

Your also saying this i want this game to be easier? I have never once said that, in fact i wish it was harder. I win the title every year no matter what team i am. This thread is not about the game being too easy or hard its about how results for AI teams are generated. It would be helpfull next time if you read the thread before posting in it. Go back and play the game we BOTH love. Numpty

[TAV2]

It's not necessarily down to the user being in the competition, but whether the competition is played on full detail or not. As you seemed to agree with earlier on today, but now seem to have forgotten about.

Your findings won't prove anything unless you ensure the other variables remain constant.

Totally agree with you. It would be impossible to figure this out properly because of the full detail. These were all points totals from AI teams on default settings. I made a mistake here thinking we can compare the both. Thanks for making that clear.

[Draakon]

Well, I've always said that FM gives team morale too much influence. Basically it's simple - winning increases morale and losing decreases. But it's very often so important that teams in a winning streak just continue winning and losing teams just continue losing. Player in-game motivation also has great influence to player performances and it's impossible to get your players motivated when they have poor morale. More likely they are nervous, or worse - playing without confidence.
Smaller team with worse player selection is more likely to win against big team in a slump.

I know it makes sense on some level, but on the other hand I seriously think that by evaluating morale above everything else, player attributes, experience and tactics are too overlooked and diminished.


If you start the season, it's most important to get a good start and be in top position after 4-5 games. If you lose games and points in early stages, it's very difficult to come back and take a lead again, because firstly you lose this possible morale-edge that you could have had by winning your first games in a row, and secondly - probably some other team has it.
In my saves I've seen both cases of that. If I'll drop to 2nd-3rd and start chasing, it's impossible that leader loses points anywhere. Rare draw here and there perhaps, but not a chance that they'd lose twice in a row after big winning streak.
On the other hand, I've seen cases when I'm leading the table and am on a good run and 2nd place team is also having a great run, similar to mine, until we both meet each other. This kind of proves for me that winning streaks are not connected to league position (= game is not scripted per se, as OP describes), but just because this morale influence team with good streaks (and, of course, poor streaks too) are more likely to continue this way and prolong their streaks, whatever direction they're heading then.

[glyndav]

It's an interesting idea, as I have experienced something similar, however I managed to hold them off and was more glad I had the competition in the final few games of the season. In my save, United went on a 19 game winning streak (beating my own record at the same time, the ********). When I left to manage elsewhere, their points dropped considerably. I don't see it as particularly unrealistic though, Uniteds form in real life until the last couple of games was hardly dissimilar. Do you think they would have accumulated as many points IRL if they didn't have City up there to compete with?

[TAV2]

Im not sure if they would have if City wasnt there. They are a young team with a lot of new players who arent seasoned title campaigners. What they have though is the best manager in the world who knows the league better than anyone else. Ferguson saw how well City were playing at the start and began giving the inspirational team talks and giving his young team believe that Man U could do it all over again. So yeah i believe Man u got this many points this year because their rivals were up there challenging.

I would like to add my thoughts about the subject of this thread has changed since my OP. If people read through it they will see i am no longer calling fowl play by SI's programmers but in fact its just a by product of the morale systems control on the game.

[stoned_assasin]

Im am certain there is some kind of script there, but how else will they make the game?
Alot of the other teams around you (same league) will have a certain link with what you are doing. Im am pretty certain of this as i have found atleast 1 way to manipulate the league myself. Depending on what you say in the press confrences will have a huge effect on the other teams around you just as much as it has an effect on you, whether you are playing the team in your next match or not. As i said 1 way i know this for sure is this..... At the start of the season you will get asked by the press which team you think will win the league. now if you have been tipped to struggle what you can do is tell the press the team you think will win the league would be your closest contender tipped to struggle along side you(something no sane manager would do, but it has a huge effect i have found.

Now lets say you go against the odds and instead of struggling you end up roaring up the table, what you will start to notice is that the top teams seem to really struggle and have some weird season but you will also notice this, the struggling team that you tipped to win the title is also have a great season.

In essence what you are doing when asked this question by the media is shaping the table depending on your own success, the success you have will have a massive effect on the other teams around you. You might say well this is realistic to some extent but to make my point clearer as an example lets say Wolves some how instead of struggling they ended up having a great season IRL, would this mean that man united will have one of there worst seasons in recent history? short answer is No, but on FM from what i found (with media manipulation) its quite the opposite.

[tomtuck01]

tomtuck01- Im just trying to figure out why these results keep coming about. The title of the thread is 'Game Feels Fixed' and now after help from Barside and a few others i have an explanation that goes a long way to explain why this is happening on my save. It still could be complete cooincidence that the points totals are always larger when im in the league. I accept that.

Your also saying this i want this game to be easier? I have never once said that, in fact i wish it was harder. I win the title every year no matter what team i am. This thread is not about the game being too easy or hard its about how results for AI teams are generated. It would be helpfull next time if you read the thread before posting in it. Go back and play the game we BOTH love. Numpty

I really don't think there was need for name calling. It's very childish.

And if you are winning the title every year at whatever club you play at and want it to be more difficult, then I recommend you not play with the top teams.

In all fairness, I don't think you are actually moaning about wanting the game to be easier, that is simply how it has come across at times. However, I don't believe your theory, and I won't without more testing.

For starters, I'll show some stats from my career thus far. The leagues I will show are the two that I have managed in and won; the Blue Square Bet Premier and the Barclays Premier League.

Blue Square Bet Premier

2011/12 - Champions; Wrexham 90pts Runners Up; Stockport 90pts - Wrexham were promoted on goal difference
2012/13 - Champions; Boston United (Me) 104pts Runners Up; Luton Town 89pts
2013/14 - Champions; Luton Town 89pts Runners Up; Cambridge United 82pts
2014/15 - Champions; Burton Albion 89pts Runners Up; Cambridge United 86pts
2015/16 - Champions; Mansfield Town 83pts Runners Up; Aldershot Town 83pts - Mansfield Town promoted on goal difference
2016/17 - Champions; Colwyn Bay 87pts Runners Up; Newport County 83pts
2017/18 - Champions; Bromley 84pts Runners Up; Boston United 83pts

As you can see, the other sides didn't raise their game when I was in the league. The amount of points needed to win the league has been around 89pts (give or take a couple of points either way), in four of the other six seasons that I wasn't managing in that league, the same amount of points that the second placed side achieved in my season in that division.

Other teams raising their game? No.

Barclays Premier League

2011/12 - Champions; Man United 80pts Runners Up; Liverpool 80pts - United won on goals scored
2012/13 - Champions; Man United 82pts Runners Up; Arsenal 70pts
2013/14 - Champions; Tottenham 81pts Runners Up; Liverpool 79pts - I, (Swansea), finished 6th with 68pts
2014/15 - Champions; Man United 91pts Runners Up; Man City 89pts - I, (Swansea), finished 3rd with 86pts
2015/16 - Champions; Swanea (Me) 85pts Runners Up; Man United 80pts
2016/17 - Champions; Swansea (Me) 94pts Runners Up; Man City 85pts
2017/18 - Champions; Arsenal 83pts Runners Up; Tottenham 76pts

I don't think the other teams raised their game too much when I was in the league. In two of my four seasons, a points total in the early 80's would have been enough to win the title, as was the case in the the three seasons I wasn't managing in the league. In the 2016/17 season a tally of just 86pts would have won the title, so in that season the other teams only raised their game marginally. The only season that was a bit crazy was the 2014/15 season.

Please draw your own conclusions.

[milnerpoint]

Please draw your own conclusions.

3 days and not a conclusion, i think we can safely speculate the reasoning behind that.

[Ellisio]

In my second season as Arsenal the title went to the last game. I was 1 point behind Man Utd, they were playing away at Chelsea, I was away at Everton...

They were getting beaten 3-0 after 60 mins, I was winning 2-1, all was looking good, we were dominating the game, missed 2 or 3 sitters, was thinking it was only a matter of time before we scored again.
(Everton scored with their one and only shot up to this point).

At around 70 mins, we missed a penalty. 75 mins we missed another sitter.

88 mins Everton equalise. No major worries, we were ahead on goal difference over Utd, still on for winning the league.

5 defenders on the pitch, packed the midfield, left solo striker up top.

91 mins we miss another sitter.

93 mins Rodwell scores from 35 yards out.

94 mins I shoot myself in the head.

[heathxxx]

It's a fix!

[Barside]

3 days and not a conclusion, i think we can safely speculate the reasoning behind that.

I am still waiting to start part 2 of my analysis, I am not going to deviate from my normal playing style to rush things as that will take away the enjoyment from my save & could lead to an unintentional bias in my findings.

What I would like to know is if the season standings tomtuck01 posted were all calculated in full detail or if they were downgraded to being sim'd when he was not in the division.

[heathxxx]

All analysis will always be influenced by perhaps the most important and central element in FM: The reputation system.

I can and have elaborated more, but sometimes I think doing so in too much detail, can somewhat remove any "mystique" the game has.

[marty78]

I have a 10 year save (too slow to play due to add/remove league issue) and the point tallies do seem slightly too high on average. It is probably a good thing though as we all want a competitive game don't we? After looking through my save and at actual tables from since the prem started I think the only issue really is there are not enough low point seasons. It always seem to take 90ish points in game but irl that figure is less likely to be required. Below is a screenshot of a higher scoring season and that is fine as it is only one season out of ten. I would like to see some years have a tighter and lower scoring points spread at the top though.

I have not been through all the records but the table below would beat any real life figures I would expect: The highest 3rd place finish I found was 2008/09 which had
1st-90 2nd-86 3rd-83

Not once has a team failed to win the league with 90+points and not once has a team reached 100points. I think Chelsea hold the record with 95pts. To summarise I don't believe there is any great problem but judging from my save the averages are slightly higher than real life. That is just one save though.

EDIT - Just checked back 10 years and the highest 5th place finish is 67points below it is 10 points higher with 77pts.

[Barside]

With this possible issue there are 3 points people should be looking at;

1. How do the point totals compare between a sample of league seasons processed in full detail & none?
2. How do the totals compare from before you entered the division to after?
3. Has there been a drop in points since you left the division?

Without the comparative before/during/after data any lists of league tables & point totals are purely speculative.

[Barside]

Early indications are that they may well be some merit to the idea that there is an element of tethering, my current season is very telling

Just about to reach the winter break & my slump on previous seasons is not harming me as much as I thought









This may well be all due to an unusually competitive season but the drop in goals scored is rather coincidental, not that I'm complaining as it is helping through a rather tough patch.

[tomtuck01]

3 days and not a conclusion, i think we can safely speculate the reasoning behind that.

Hahaha devastatingly brilliant post in my humble opinion.

What I would like to know is if the season standings tomtuck01 posted were all calculated in full detail or if they were downgraded to being sim'd when he was not in the division.

All full detail, not that I expect to be believed.

[Barside]

All full detail, not that I expect to be believed.

I have no reason not to believe you, I trust that you'll extend the same courtesy when I post my mid-point findings later this week.

[tomtuck01]

I have no reason not to believe you, I trust that you'll extend the same courtesy when I post my mid-point findings later this week.

I was more meaning the OP to be honest, not yourself.

[TAV2]

I dont even believe your name is tom

[tomtuck01]

I dont even believe your name is tom

Be that as it may, i'm not all surprised that you haven't made any reference to my findings, seen as they basically **** all over your "game feels fixed" nonsense.

Shock and horror!

[TAV2]

Iv got findings too that seem to show the opposite of what you think! I moved leagues/countries FOUR times and every time the points totals have increased. This is over 9 seasons and more than that iv stated what i now believe to be true. The OP is the OP. Things have evolved as the thread and time as gone along.

[tomtuck01]

It's not what i think, it's what i have "proved" using the same limited research as you.

Basically you are just plain wrong, but rather than admitting it you are giving a vague nonsensical response that means even less than youre original "findings".

[TAV2]

Whats your probelm buddy? Iv said above many times now i no longer think its an intentional mechanism in the game. I have shown though that when I am managing in a country the points totals for that competition go up. When i leave they go back down. I have said above YET AGAIN that i now believe it to be down to the way results are processed when in full detail compared to being on default. All you have done is manage in the same nation and got consistantly high points totals. That is because you have it in full detail. Move countries then your results will mean something!

[Barside]

You both have data that shows a different set of result, as things stand neither of you are right or wrong.

[marty78]

It's not what i think, it's what i have "proved" using the same limited research as you.

Basically you are just plain wrong, but rather than admitting it you are giving a vague nonsensical response that means even less than youre original "findings".

Exactly, you can't prove anything with limited research, thats not how the world works. I don't think anyone has anywhere near enough data to give definitive proof.

Is the game fixed? Not in my opinion. Do opposition AI teams raise there game when the user is very successful? I don't know but there are occasions when it feels like that but that is a good thing if it is the case. If I am dominating a top league I want to see the other sides spending money to improve and bridge the gap otherwise it will get dull very quickly.

[tomtuck01]

Exactly, you can't prove anything with limited research, thats not how the world works. I don't think anyone has anywhere near enough data to give definitive proof.

Thank you for engaging your brain and understanding what point i was making.

[penza]

hahaha its funny how people have nothing to do! this game is awesome who cares about testing? its not your job its SI's ..they did a good job till now
leave it to them

[Barside]

hahaha its funny how people have nothing to do! this game is awesome who cares about testing? its not your job its SI's ..they did a good job till now
leave it to them

If the public didn't give feedback or even do some small scale testing of their own the development of the game would stall, the input offered by the wider community is essential.

[penza]

feedback yes you are completely right but the testing that we can do will not help because we only can use limited research, their programmers have much more sophisticated softwares to do that...i bet they know already everything being mentioned above dont you think?

[Kriss]

User input is highly valued even if the way they produce stats isn't scientific, peoples perceptions are sometimes as important as the facts.

If there is an anomaly along these lines I've never seen it mentioned before and have certainly never seen a test run on the subject.

[Barside]

Interesting numbers for the season that I've just completed, my team were 7.8 points & 27.8 goals down on our recent (previous 5 seasons) average, oddly enough every other team in title contention had a similar drop in points/goals when compared to their recent average so I still managed to win the league title.

Seeing everyone fall way short of their normal goalscoring exploits is certainly odd.

Edit: I guess what I should do is replay the season in the hope that we put in our usual 3 goal a game average & see if another club or two keep pace, might revisit the season once I'm done with the Leipzig job.

[BiggusD]

User input is highly valued even if the way they produce stats isn't scientific, peoples perceptions are sometimes as important as the facts.

If there is an anomaly along these lines I've never seen it mentioned before and have certainly never seen a test run on the subject.

Yes I think the important word in the thread title is "feels".

[scott MUFC]

i can say... that the crazyness happened in my first season, and it was more normal in the second, with the team competing for the title with me finishing with a lower total then previously.
only oddity this season so far is newcastle beating chelsea 8-1

[Barside]

Some interesting developments in the Bundesliga following my resignation from RB Leipzig.

I left the club after winning 10 straight league titles, during those 10 seasons the second placed team achieved the following point totals; 79(79), 75(89), 79(85), 83(87), 78(84), 75(77), 65(75), 70(82), 76(81) & 71(79), numbers in brackets are the winning point totals.

In the 3 years since I left my replacement has kept the squad largely unchanged & has won 2 league titles, 1 German cup, 1 Champions League & a CWC so he's a fairly decent manager. In the league the runners-up so far have finished on 69(83), 67(70 - HSV) & 66(85).

Now it is of course early days & the only fair comparison will be one made over a decade but the early indications are that the presence of a dominant user controlled team may well be lifting the performances of other teams in the league to a greater extent than a dominant AI controlled team or when there is no user controlled team in the league.

I have also considered the FC Bayern factor as prior to Leipzig's emergence as a domestic force they were the team to beat, during my 10 year run they were runners-up 5 times & consistently scored between 65-75 points, since my departure they have struggled finishing 4th twice & 12th last season.

Unfortunately I have not managed long enough in a league that has previously been set to full detail processing so I'm unable to assess what impact my arrival has had on leagues that I have since managed in.

[Respected_Boss]

I noticed before - no matter how well I do that there's always a team right behind me in the league.

I could have 105 points and there will be a team right behind me.

Next season I might have 92 points and there is a team right around me too.


I could go the whole season without losing and there will be a team that has drawn just one game.

Ive found that with most FM releases to be fair. Is it not just a version of so called "rubber band physics" that appear in racing games? Idea being to make it more interesting.