AI Experiment - The Bandits, The Sheriffs and FM12

[kipfizh]

Back once again, like a renegade master

Welcome one and all to the world of the Bandits. And, I suppose, the world of the Sheriffs, if you are that way inclined. Don’t know what I’m talking about? Read on.

Let’s step back in time for a moment, to the days of FM07, and the first of these experiments. It saw the creation of the Bandits – a supremely rich club in the Conference South with an enormous fanbase and a massive stadium. Financially set for their entire existence, they were also handed 22 of the greatest young players in the history of the game – otherwise known as the starlets. Two for every position of a traditional 4-4-2, they each had a PA of 200 (maximum) and a CA as high as the game would allow a 17 year old to start with, along with perfect mental attributes and an unquenchable thirst for success.

On the flip side, two complete idiots were created. Equally talented, they were destructive in every way possible – lazy, disloyal, dirty divers, they were the antithesis of team players, and hated every club and manager they ended up at.

[kipfizh]

So what happened

The game ran for nearly 70 seasons, over the course of two real-life years. The players became world beaters quickly, but left the Bandits to have stellar careers elsewhere. The idiots bounced from club to club, doing well enough to get noticed without ever becoming the world stars their equal talent promised.
As for the Bandits, they slowly moved up the leagues, but never made the final push to major trophies (aside from the occasional cup). Despite their financial dominance (they approached a billion in the bank at one point), they were often held back by cautious managers, who allowed the stars to leave when the big offers came in, but refused to use the club’s massive coffers. Perennially midtable finishers in the Premiership, their potential was never truly fulfilled.

You can find the whole thread here (all 4000+ posts of it….)
http://community.sigames.com/showthr...f?daysprune=-1

Fast forward two years….

[kipfizh]

Incarnation number two

In FM09, the Bandits were faithfully recreated. Once again their bank balance swelled, their ground dwarfed their rivals, and their squad boasted the same 22 starlets that had lit up world football in the previous experiment.

But there were some crucial differences. The starlets started at 150 CA, the Bandits were given a talented board and management staff in an attempt to prevent the stalling of the previous game, and crucially the game was played on full detail, which allowed truer results based on the actual talent of the players, rather than a roughly simulated one. The game ran much slower, but the scorelines were far more interesting as a result.

And then there were the Sheriffs. The true home of the idiots, they had equal financial muscle to the Bandits, but with a fanatical, impatient fanbase and an equally interfering nightmare of a board. The idiots, who started on their books, increased in number to four, with a single goalkeeper, defender, midfielder and striker created.

The experiment didn’t really get off the ground due to time constraints on my part, but in the early stages both clubs were soaring up the divisions, with an intense rivalry along the way. Both were far more aggressive with their financial muscle, and it promised far more than the FM07 version. As the for the players – the starlets were again headed for the top, but the poor attitude of the idiots meant that their ability never rose beyond the starting point of 150 CA. In fact it fell.

More details here:
http://community.sigames.com/showthr...-back-for-FM09

Now, three seasons on, it is time for both clubs to come back to life. And as before, there are a host of changes in store.

[kipfizh]

The clubs

Financially, the Bandits and the Sheriffs are equals. Both have £10m in the bank with an active sugar daddy, and a reputation of 1000. Rich enough to start with, they will both receive massive incomes from their 120000 all-seater stadium, which attracts anywhere from 50000-200000 fans on a given matchday. The pitches are perfect and the grounds are flawless.

They start in a lower league than ever before, thanks to the excellent work of the FMUpdates team, whose thread you can find here:
http://community.sigames.com/showthr...gues-*Out-Now*

This update enables levels seven and eight in the English football pyramid, and both clubs start in the eighth tier, or more specifically the Southern League Division One South and West, two rungs below the Conference South and four rungs below league football.

The Bandits replace Poole Town and The Sheriffs replace nearby Wimborne Town in the league, with Wimborne being relocated five miles to the centre of Poole to enhance their rivalry. Poole itself has been made into the most attractive town in the land.

This time around, their managers are randomized, but they do each have a specific chairman. Both rich, both willing to put money in, and both ambitious, they have all the tools, but as you would expect, the Bandit chairman is loyal, patient and hands off, whereas the controversial Sheriff chairman sees the manager purely as a puppet for his plaything. Expect a trigger happy attitude there.

And they have fans to match. Both sets are passionate and affluent, but the Bandits fans have the patience, while the Sheriff fans have the fanaticism.

Both clubs, appropriately, are marked as being formed in 2007, and are fully professional.

[kipfizh]

The players

There are some changes to the players this time around. Previously, all created players, whether starlet or idiot, were formed at the same ability level, and had an enormous amount of versatility. This made them all very similar in how they performed, so there are some changes here, both to given them a greater career progression, and the redress the balance between the starlets and idiots somewhat.

There are now three types of player, rather than two.

Starlets

As before, there are 22 of these, and they have perfect attributes, both on and off the pitch. However, there are a variety of changes, as follows:
a) Their versatility has been reduced somewhat. Previously, all wide players were also able to play centrally, and there was no concept of more attacking or defensive midfielders. This is no longer true. Left midfielders, for example, can play at LM or LW, but nowhere else. In addition, the four central midfielders have been split into two DM/MCs and two AM/MCs.
b) While they all have a PA of 200, their CAs have dropped, and there are two levels. One player in every position (the odd numbered ones, e.g. Striker 1 and 3) start with 100 CA, while the others (even numbered ones) start with 75 CA. This is still excellent for the level they start at, but it means that the clubs may retain them for longer – not only are they not so ridiculously good for the league that they have to move on, but also the second tier of players may not play enough initially to get noticed. It will be interesting to see how the different tiers progress.
c) All players have a random nationality, and are declared for that nation, but have a second nationality of English to avoid work permit issues.
All start with, and love, the Bandits, whilst hating the Sheriffs.

Workhorse Idiots

There are four of these – goalkeeper, versatile defender, versatile midfielder and striker. They are as controversial, dirty, disloyal and impatient as the idiots have ever been, but they give themselves a fighting chance of a decent career by being determined and actually working well in a team when on the field of play. The minute they step out of the game, however, they revert to being absolute nightmares. And of course, there is a decent chance that they will be forcibly removed from the game after yet another scything challenge.

All four start with the Sheriffs, and with a higher CA than the starlets – 125. They love the Sheriffs and hate the Bandits.

All four have the same nationality structure as the starlets – random nationality but with English as a second nationality to avoid work permit issues.

Lazy Idiots

These guys make the workhorse idiots seem like great people to have around. Equally as disloyal, ambitious and impatient, they are also as likely to get sent off, punch their manager or not bother even turning up. However, their on-pitch attitude doesn’t even mitigate this – they are lazy and do not understand the concept of a team in any way. In their world, they don’t have to try hard in training or on match day, their talent should be enough.

And their talent is higher than the rest – they start with a CA of 150, to give them a fighting chance as the worst type of created player. They love the Sheriffs and hate the Bandits.

Summary

So the Bandits have 22 starlets, 11 at 100 CA and 11 at 75 CA, and the Sheriffs have eight idiots, four at 125 CA and four at 150 CA. All thirty individuals have 200 PA.

[kipfizh]

The Game

With the ability to switch leagues into full detail and out again, it isn’t necessary to run quite as many leagues on full detail as before, so only the entire English pyramid does, since that is where our interest initially lies, and internationals/continentals. The initial setup is:

England
All leagues and cups full detail, including all regional cups at the lower levels (will remove once the Bandits and Sheriffs are league teams, because this slows the game down massively)
All leagues playable

Italy
Serie A – Serie B playable

Spain
Liga BBVA - Liga Adelante playable

Germany
Bundlesliga - 2. Bundesliga playable

France
Ligue 1 – Ligue 2 playable

Internationals
All competitive competitions, including qualifying, full detail

Continental Competitions
All European competitions and World Club Cup, full detail.

Essentially, we have full detail on any match the created players could ever play in. This will change based on where they are – e.g. a player moving to Barcelona will cause Liga BBVA to be put on full detail, and once they are all over 21, the youth internationals will not be played on full detail.

[kipfizh]

What’s next

Before the game itself begins, I was post a series of analysis posts, showing details for the players, the clubs, the state of world football, and so on.

But for now, I want your predictions. Go!

[5ergio]

Wahey! We are back in business ladies and gentlemen!

- Both clubs will rush onwards and upwards eventually, even though I'd like the Sheriffs to crush and burn to be honest!
- 2 tiers of starlets is an excellent idea, not only for the retaining part but also to see how game time, starting CA and development affects them.
- 8 idiots now ehh! That's a large number and quite a good variance between the two groups I'd say as try-hards and lazy asses.
- Both chairmans will have their pros and cons. I do recall a Bandits chairman not even sacking a below-decent manager because he was a patience god for example!
- Kinda interested and also eager to see which national teams the players ended up. It'd be a double-egded blade for the national team managers of the lazy idiots unfortunately.

Ultimate prediction and will of course is the Bandits' triumph over Sheriffs' in any aspect of the game possible! Mon the Bandits!

[civilservant]

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BuffaloPhil]

Fantastic to see both teams back!! Although as a Wimborne Town fan I'm not sure about them being replaced by the Sheriffs - should I now back the Sheriffs as they are in essence Wimborne, or should I hate them (and thus support the Bandits) as they're the reason there is no Wimborne Town any more?!? Decisions, decisions!

Couple of small predictions - the Bandits will proceed straight through the levels winning promotion every year until at least League Two, and will have at least four remaining starlets by that time.

The Sheriffs will lose the idiots relatively early - probably within three years.

[yugo23]

It will be interesting to see which players will receive immediate national team call ups. It depends on the nations, but lazy idiots are most likely going to be called up right away. Can't wait to see what happens in first transfer window.

[Tactic Master]

First off, I never used to visit these forums like I have done in the past 2 years, so i've never had the chance to follow your 2 previous threads, although I did read a little bit and it sounds like a lot of fun and a good read. Therefore, i'm very pleased you've decided to start this up on FM12 and can't wait for the updates to start

It's good that you've explained a lot on the previous games, so I can make some predictions, hopefully with accuracy

1. I predict "The Bandits" to move up the leagues quickly, as despite the CA not being as good as before, it's still amazing even at Blue Square Premier level and by the time they reach that league, they will be even better.
2. I predict we will still have some players at "The Bandits" by the time we reach the Blue Square Premier, so we should progress even further hopefully.
3. "The Sheriffs" will rise through the leagues similar to "The Bandits", but once the "Idiots" have moved clubs, I think they may move through the leagues faster, with the fact that the Chairman wont put up with rubbish managers, something that could be seen as a "Flaw" for "The Bandits".
4. I can see both clubs eventually fighting in the top 4 of the Premiership, with "The Bandits" possibly overcoming their rivals, but yet again, maybe not, due to the previous flaw i mentioned.

Hope this starts very soon

[PRDH]

And we're off!

My thoughts, for what they're worth are roughly in line with those for the second incarnation. I think the Sheriffs (boo!) will have the most significant early success with the trigger happy chairman not allowing any underachievement and the idiots but as time goes on the sensible Bandits' (woo!) chairman will drag them back, and overtake them having greater overall success.

[Adamw]

My predictions

Sheriffs will move up the leagues quicker, with the Bandits building for long term success. Once in the Premier League, the Bandits will dominate English and Continental football, and the Sheriffs will become a mid-table side, occasionally breaking into the European places or competing for a domestic cup.

As for the players, I can see all of them moving fairly quickly, perhaps one or two of the lower ranked Bandits will stick around.

[chopper99]

\o/ Finally it's back!!

I haven't even read the posts yet, but I've followed this from day 1, back in 2007. So cant wait for this to get started.

[glennuk]

Predictions -

1. Lazy Bandits will be gone (At least 3/4) by end of january transfer window.
2. 1/4 workhorse bandits will be gone by end of jan.
3. 2/11 100 ca starlets will go in jan.
4. Bandits will have 4 successive promotions before finishing in mid table due to a lack of original starlets left (4/22)
5. Sheriffs will get to Conference south/north before stalling due to lack of continuity in team/managers.

[stothy]

Predict Sheriffs will take a while to get to the top but will dominate there!

[civilservant]

Kip, are we likely to see a regular schedule for updating (job and life permitting of course!) or will it again be somewhat on the hop and irregular?

[crewe_york]

Cannot believe this is back! Kip's tales of the bandits ups & downs are probably better than most the books I've read!

[18Rabbit]

Very excited to see this start up. I didn't play FM till 2010 so I only know of the previous iterations from myth and legend.

[snootyjim]

I think that with the increased interest by top clubs in sniffing out young talent in FM11 and FM12, the Bandits will still have no starlets left after 2 years.

None of the idiots will have much long-term success, the lazy ones through ineptitude, and the hard-working ones through being on the move permanently.

I expect both clubs to spend big, unlike the first experiment, but not as big as they could - and indeed should. As such, it'll probably be a slow rise up the tables by both of them, with a large quantity of overpaid, ageing stars who no human manager would ever have considered signing.

[G_D_K]

Go Bandits!!! Welcome back!!!!!!!

Predictions:

1: Bandits to go up in successive seasons at least to BSP
2: Depending on schedule, sheriffs will be short two idiots in the crucial game between the two teams (more likely the later the two teams play their second match)
3: 8 of the tier 1 Bandits to be on new teams by March of season 1 --- all of the tier 1 and half of the tier two off to new teams by start of season 2.
4: Probably all of the sheriffs off to new teams by the end of transfer window in spring --- though they will likely not get enough playing time to be content on new teams. 2 demand transfer before mid-season, season 2.
5: Sheriffs to move up, likely remaining a season behind the Bandits until about L1 timeframe.

[Chilliconcarnie]

It's back! YAS \o/

Bring it on Kip!

I predict there to be an initial dominance from the Sheriffsm before the Bandits gain some momentum and catapult themselves up the leagues.

Looking forward to the postings!!!

[Taunton]

Wonderful! Really looking forward to this.

Good luck with the updates.

Will be interesting to see how long the starlets will stay at the Bandits.

[Thandui]

Great to see this back up, never really posted in the old ones, simply followed them, always like AI experiments

[Tactic Master]

Looking forward to the first update

[Biscotti]

Whilst I was a lurker way back in 2007, I never really had any interest in the experiment threads until a couple of years ago, so I never followed the previous incarnations of this. That said, the excitement it's created is palpable and it's easy to forget that CSE has been on a decline of late

I don't think there's any predictions I can make that haven't already been made:

-Sheriffs will start out fastest, but Bandits will follow closely
-As they get to football league level the sheriffs will pull ahead
-A handful of starlets will remain at the club into the football league
-The lazy idiots will bounce around from club to club and never really achieve much
-The workhorse idiots will also bounce from club to club, but they'll actually show signs of progression and maybe achieve success.

[SpiderGuard]

Before my predictions I wanted to note that I signed up for this board just to post in this thread. Such epically great stuff the last two rounds. Keep it up.

- I'm guessing the 75 CA starlets stay at the club for two full years. The 100 starlets leave in the first transfer window never to be seen wearing Bandit kit again.
- All of the Sheriffs will be gone in January.
- All of the hard-working sheriffs will be shortlisted for the Golden Ball within 5 years, while the lazy ones will continue to flounder.
- AC Milan will continue to be awful in FM for whatever reason (Ibra's too slow and Pato gets injured every five minutes?)

[Braumiller]

Very excited to watch my beloved Bandits again.

COYB!!!

[kipfizh]

Fantastic to see both teams back!! Although as a Wimborne Town fan I'm not sure about them being replaced by the Sheriffs - should I now back the Sheriffs as they are in essence Wimborne, or should I hate them (and thus support the Bandits) as they're the reason there is no Wimborne Town any more?!? Decisions, decisions!

Wimborne Town fan eh? Small world.... and you should definitely hate the Sheriffs for causing the disbanding of your club. Definitely.

[kipfizh]

3. "The Sheriffs" will rise through the leagues similar to "The Bandits", but once the "Idiots" have moved clubs, I think they may move through the leagues faster, with the fact that the Chairman wont put up with rubbish managers, something that could be seen as a "Flaw" for "The Bandits".

This was certainly a flaw in the first game, but on that occasion I did set their ambition to 1, mistakenly thinking that would enhance loyalty. Actually, it just made them settle for mediocrity. This time, the chairman may be supremely patient, but he is also extremely ambitious. Might make a difference.

[kipfizh]

Kip, are we likely to see a regular schedule for updating (job and life permitting of course!) or will it again be somewhat on the hop and irregular?

And there's the million dollar question

Certainly planning on more regularity than the second experiment, which was only regular in terms of long absences. Some updates will be quicker than others though, it all has to be fitted in!

[DB1]

Viva la BanditsWe're all Bandito's at heart

[Braumiller]

While waiting for the big kick off, can we be teased with some all important details?

Can we get a screenshot of their home kit?

[Jpr]

Been hoping for a return after I lurked on the 09 one. Can't wait

[kipfizh]

Pre-game analysis - Bandits squad

Top 10 in Squad (sorted by CA)

Name, Pos, Age, CA-PA

(excluding starlets, of which there are 11 at 100 CA and 11 at 75 CA)

Hay, 27, M RL, 112-115
Anderson, 28, DC, 111-115
Rooney, 25, D LC, 94-115
Gosling, 25, D RLC, 92-115
Smith, 25, D LC, 91-115
Hawkins, 17, M LC, 87-173
Cox, 17, ML, 85-176
Yildirim, 24, AMC, 83-115
Matthews, 24, AMR, 83-115
Kay, 24, GK, 80-105

This section will detail the top 20 players in future, but with 22 starlets at the club the rest seem somewhat redundant. However, it is interesting to note the two left wingers already at the club – Hawkins and Cox. Both have immense potential.

Notable others:
None

CA of X or above:

190 : 0
180 : 0
170 : 0
160 : 0
150 : 0
140 : 0
130 : 0
120 : 0
110 : 2
100 : 2
90 : 5
80 : 10
70 : 13
60 : 17

For the eighth tier of English football, this isn’t too bad a squad at all.

[kipfizh]

Pre-game analysis - Sheriffs squad

Top 10 in Squad (sorted by CA)

Name, Pos, Age, CA-PA

(excluding idiots, of which there are 4 at 125 CA and 4 at 150 CA)

Daley, 28, GK, 113-115
Hamilton, 26, AMC, 108-115
Zabek, 27, D LC, 103-115
Pierce, 24, M RL, 87-115
Holloway, 16, AM LC, 84-170
Mitchell, 33, D RC, 83-115
Horlock, 22, ST, 76-152
Hadji, 16, D RLC, 70-156
Mogg, 16, DM, 66-146
Mansell, 17, M LC, 64-125

The Sheriffs also have some real potential in their ranks, none better than 16 year old Holloway, who is a sensational prospect.

Notable others:
None

CA of X or above:

190 : 0
180 : 0
170 : 0
160 : 0
150 : 0
140 : 0
130 : 0
120 : 0
110 : 1
100 : 3
90 : 3
80 : 6
70 : 8
60 : 12

Undoubtedly a thinner starting squad than the Bandits, but you have to remember that they have eight players with a talent headstart who could push them to great things in their early existence.

[kipfizh]

Competitions – Southern League Division One South and West

Best players in the Southern League Division One South and West (excluding starlets and idiots):

1 (-). Daley (Sheriffs, 28, GK, 113-115)
2 (-). Hay (Bandits, 27, M RL, 112-115)
3 (-). Anderson (Bandits, 28, DC, 111-115)
4 (-). Hamilton (Sheriffs, 26, AMC, 108-115)
5 (-). Zabek (Sheriffs, 27, D LC, 105-115)
6 (-). Rooney (Bandits, 25, D LC, 94-115)
7 (-). Gosling (Bandits, 25, D RLC, 92-115)
8 (-). Smith (Bandits, 25, D LC, 91-115)
9 (-). Hawkins (Bandits, 17, M LC, 87-173)
10 (-). Pierce (Sheriffs, 24, M RL, 87-115)

The degree by which the Bandits and Sheriffs should dominate this league is incredible. Halesowen have a right back with 76 CA, but apart from that the league is filled with players of CA 50 and below. In fact, many of the squads will be forced to play players with single figure CA scores.

Suffice to say that the Bandits and Sheriffs should waltz to promotion.

As for reputation, Tiverton have a reputation of 1100, beating the Bandits and Sheriffs into joint second with 1000.

[kipfizh]

Pre-game analysis - World beaters *WARNING!!!!! - Player naming!!!!!!!*

Current 190 CA players:

Lionel Messi (Barcelona/Argentina, 24, AM RLC/FC, 195-199). Not a surprise to see him top the list.
Cristiano Ronaldo (Real Madrid/Portugal, 26, AM RL/ST, 190-193). Quite useful, too.

And that's it. Only two 190 CA players to begin with, we will see how that progresses. In FM09, the numbers of players at each CA level rose each season.

Number of 190+ CA players : 2
Number of 180+ CA players : 6
Number of 170+ CA players : 35

Number of 190+ PA players : 5 (excluding starlets and idiots)
Number of 180+ PA players : 61 (excluding starlets and idiots)
Number of 170+ PA players : 211 (excluding starlets and idiots)

[snootyjim]

Those youths are ridiculous talented, they could be top Premiership players when they're older. Seems very strange for two clubs at that level!

[TwinsFan86]

I'm guessing that they were newgens created to fill empty spots and because of the Bandits and Sheriff's facilities, etc, they have immense potential?

[kipfizh]

Yeah - both clubs are located in the Poole area, which has the highest possible attractiveness rating. Add to that the fact that both clubs have perfect youth setups and a couple of gems were inevitable.

What is more surprising is the quality of the other squad players. Seriously - in that league most players are around 25-30 CA, with a player in the 40s being a star of their team (plenty of teams have no-one hitting 40 CA). So how come both the Bandits and Sheriffs, in the same league and with a similar reputation, have had players created over 100 CA? That is decent for the Conference, which is three divisions away.

I would expect big things even without the starlets and idiots, and a good crack at the non league cup competitions.

[5ergio]

Maybe, I am not sure though as I have not messed up with the editor to create lower leagues, the regen creator does not reflect the created lower leagues' quality correctly, add the fact that both clubs have state-of-art facilities with an academy and voila! And we may just have been lucky with the RNG this time, I wouldnt be surprised at all if we don't see any 170+ PA regen next year.

[kipfizh]

World View – Club Reputation

The top twenty clubs in the world, based on their reputation:

1 (-). Barcelona – 9550
2 (-). Real Madrid – 9300
3 (-). Man Utd – 9150
4 (-). Chelsea – 9050
5 (-). Bayern Munich – 8900
6= (-). Inter – 8850
6= (-). AC Milan – 8850
8 (-). Juventus – 8650
9 (-). Man City – 8600
10 (-). Porto – 8500
11 (-). Arsenal – 8350
12= (-). Liverpool – 8200
12= (-). Roma – 8200
14= (-). Lyon - 8150
14= (-). Benfica - 8150
14= (-). Corinthians – 8150
17 (-). Sao Paulo – 8100
18= (-). Paris St Germain – 8000
18= (-). Valencia – 8000
18= (-). Atletico Madrid – 8000
18= (-). Schalke – 8000
18= (-). Marseille – 8000
18= (-). Flamengo – 8000
18= (-). Sporting – 8000

[chopper99]

A very interesting start with the two clubs getting players that are far better than the other players in the league.

It does mean that the starlets, even the 100CA ones, might not all get a regular place. I imagine the 75CA ones certainly wont. So it will be interesting to see how this affects them moving on. I imagine all of the players in the two squads will attract interest early on, as they're all missively better than anyone in their league, and could probably do a job for a conference team. This for me will be the first real intereting test of the AI. I haven't played an FM since 09, and in those days scouts seemed to have quite an accurate knowledge of CA, and if they told you that a player had massive potential they were usually right. On top of that, if you cast your scouting network wide enough you could usually uncover the future stars quite easily. This was always a weakness in the AI for me, mainly because it didn't matter how badly a player had played, if they had a massive CA they would still be recommended to you by the scouts. At the same time, a player with average CA/PA who was having an amazing season, perhaps because the manager was utilising his particular skills to perfection, struggled to attract big offers due to having low numbers for CA and PA behind the scenes.

So I'll be interested to know how quickly clubs recognise the talents of the starlets and whether they need to actually play well before attracting widespread interest. If the AI works well, and they aren't getting regular first team football in the early seasons then I'd hope they would stay at the Bandits for a few seasons. But I'm suspecting that this wont be the case.

So my predictions:

1 - Both clubs will walk the first season, with the Sheriffs coming top. They will then dominate up to conference level where their performances will level out a bit.
2 - All 8 of the idiots will attract interest very quickly and at least 5 of them will leave in the first transfer window.
3 - The 100CA starlets will mostly be gone by the start of the second season, but most of the 75CA players will stay for 3 seasons before moving on.
4 - The random nationality will make things very interesting. I predict that England will only end up with 5 starlets and no idiots. And a smaller, previously unsuccessful, nation will win a major tournament with the help of 2 starlets.

[kipfizh]

It does mean that the starlets, even the 100CA ones, might not all get a regular place. I imagine the 75CA ones certainly wont. So it will be interesting to see how this affects them moving on.

Absolutely - I was hoping that by introducing two tiers, they wouldn't have an even split of playing time and therefore all get exposed at the same rate. It will be very interesting to see how well known the 75 CA set get if they don't get much time on the field. I'm hoping for some real AI insight here.

[yugo23]

I hope next update will be introduction of starlets and idiots - nationalities info etc.

[leonavich]

YESSSS!!! So excited that this is back. This gives office time a new pep! Teams already look immense, and as for predictions:

A few short term predictions, as with previous installments, it takes a couple of years to progress.
- I think the most players (starlets and idiots) will move on to conference and lower league teams within 1-3 years
- I think both Sheriffs and bandits will make the jump in the first season, and slow down after that. The should still reach the conference within 5-6 years though
- With CA's that low, it can be really tough even for good teams to stand out, so I think the Sheriff's will pip the bandits most games in the first few years, but I see bandits winning a cup sooner.
- no international caps for either starlets or idiots within the first 2 seasons that they remain at sheriffs or Bandits due to the league they are in. Once they hit conference, some of the smaller nations will start calling in the stars!

[jackyb1989]

Glad to see this back! Having followed both of the previous experiments, I know just how good kip's experiments are!

I'm going to stick my neck out and predict that at least one of the starlets/idiots will end up at a Premiership club by the end of season 1.

Also I'm going to say that the Sheriffs or Bandits will reach round 2 of the FA Cup this year.

[kipfizh]

I hope next update will be introduction of starlets and idiots - nationalities info etc.

Yep - it will be

[kipfizh]

Starlets and Idiots – Ability and Nationality Overview

All nationalities were picked at random, and all starlets and idiots were declared for their nations. They were all given England as a second nationality to avoid work permit and language issues.

Starlets:

Goalkeeper 1 (GK) – 100 CA – Paraguay
Goalkeeper 2 (GK) – 75 CA – Brunei
Left Back 1 (LB/LWB) – 100 CA – Scotland
Left Back 2 (LB/LWB) – 75 CA – Romania
Right Back 1 (RB/RWB) – 100 CA – Ecuador
Right Back 2 (RB/RWB) – 75 CA – Trinidad & Tobago
Centre Back 1 (SW/DC) – 100 CA – Switzerland
Centre Back 2 (SW/DC) – 75 CA – Anguilla
Centre Back 3 (SW/DC) – 100 CA – Martinique
Centre Back 4 (SW/DC) – 75 CA – Tahiti
Left Mid 1 (LM/LW) – 100 CA – Iceland
Left Mid 2 (LM/LW) – 75 CA – East Timor
Right Mid 1 (RM/RW) – 100 CA – Bulgaria
Right Mid 2 (RM/RW) – 75 CA – Zanzibar
Defensive Mid 1 (DM/MC) – 100 CA – Barbados
Defensive Mid 2 (DM/MC) – 75 CA – Sint Maartan
Attacking Mid 1 (AM/MC) – 100 CA – Haiti
Attacking Mid 2 (AM/MC) – 75 CA – Turkmenistan
Striker 1 (ST) – 100 CA – Tahiti
Striker 2 (ST) – 75 CA – Paraguay
Striker 3 (ST) – 100 CA – Estonia
Striker 4 (ST) – 75 CA – Comoros

Paraguay and Tahiti do the best from the starlets, getting two each, with a decent spread of country quality. No giants of the world game get a single starlet.

Driven Idiot GK (GK) – 125 CA – Belize
Driven Idiot Def (SW/DC/LB/LWB/RB/RWB) – 125 CA – Chinese Taipei
Driven Idiot Mid (DM/MC/AM/LM/LW/RM/RW) – 125 CA – Wales
Driven Idiot Str (ST) – 125 CA – Togo
Lazy Idiot GK (GK) – 150 CA – Mongolia
Lazy Idiot Def (SW/DC/LB/LWB/RB/RWB) – 150 CA – Nigeria
Lazy Idiot Mid (DM/MC/AM/LM/LW/RM/RW) – 150 CA – Congo
Lazy Idiot Str (ST) – 150 CA – Qatar

Another mix of nationalities for the idiots, and no country getting an idiot and a starlet, so Paraguay and Tahiti remain the countries with the most gained from the player additions.

[chopper99]

I find it quite strange that when randomising the nationalities not a single 'top' nation recieved any of the players. All of the teams seem to be from the bottom half of the Fifa rankings. Coincidence, or anomaly?

[kipfizh]

I find it quite strange that when randomising the nationalities not a single 'top' nation recieved any of the players. All of the teams seem to be from the bottom half of the Fifa rankings. Coincidence, or anomaly?

Total coincidence - I fed all the countries into a random generator piece of code, and picked out thirty. Mind you, there were comfortably over 200 nations - I think it is more of a case of there being a huge amount of 'smaller' nations.

[Braumiller]

Love it! My adopted 2nd FM nationality of Tahiti (my youth academy in Football Manager Live was based there and I became unhealthily attached to them) are going to be integral to this iteration of the Bandits!!!

CB4 & S1 to dominate the world (I hope )

[corinthiano]

Total coincidence - I fed all the countries into a random generator piece of code, and picked out thirty. Mind you, there were comfortably over 200 nations - I think it is more of a case of there being a huge amount of 'smaller' nations.

Tbf there are quite a few mid-quality international sides like Paraguay, Nigeria, Switzerland, Bulgaria, Romania...hardly complete minnows.

[chopper99]

Total coincidence - I fed all the countries into a random generator piece of code, and picked out thirty. Mind you, there were comfortably over 200 nations - I think it is more of a case of there being a huge amount of 'smaller' nations.

Ahh I see. I thought that the game had somehow assigned the nationalities.

In that case never mind, it will make the experiment all the more interesting.

[glennuk]

No it is Paraguay. Where i currently work and live that will dominate. Forza Paraguay!

[Braumiller]

No it is Paraguay. Where i currently work and live that will dominate. Forza Paraguay!

Name jotted down for gloating after the 2022 World Cup clash

(How is that for a prediction!)

[PRDH]

Hoped to see Armenia get a starlet, never mind.

How many promotion places are up for grabs in these early leagues? Is it going to be a case of only one of them being able to make it up or could they go up side by side all the way to the Premier League (in the long term obviously)?

[glennuk]

Name jotted down for gloating after the 2022 World Cup clash

(How is that for a prediction!)

Im thinking about Brazil 2014 which you won't qualify for

[kipfizh]

Hello again.

Right, I'll be answering questions in a bit (when I can load the save, for some of them), but importantly, is there anything else you want to know about the state of the game world before the experiment starts?

[glennuk]

No - I just want to get to the juicy part (The experiment)

Looking forward to this

[Chilliconcarnie]

No - I just want to get to the juicy part (The experiment)

Looking forward to this

Seconded

[Braumiller]

Hello again.

Right, I'll be answering questions in a bit (when I can load the save, for some of them), but importantly, is there anything else you want to know about the state of the game world before the experiment starts?

Would it be possible to list the current world rankings for the national teams that there are Bandits or Idiots qualified for?
Perhaps a yearly update on how their rankings are progressing as our kids begin to make appearances?

[iacovone]

FANTASTIC to see this back Kip - will be keeping a very close eye on your progress. KUTGW

[kipfizh]

Would it be possible to list the current world rankings for the national teams that there are Bandits or Idiots qualified for?
Perhaps a yearly update on how their rankings are progressing as our kids begin to make appearances?

Good shout. I'll do this.

[glennuk]

Would it be possible to list the current world rankings for the national teams that there are Bandits or Idiots qualified for?
Perhaps a yearly update on how their rankings are progressing as our kids begin to make appearances?

Great idea even though Paraguay will be top the whole time

[SpiderGuard]

Not that you can (or should) add it at this point, but it might be interesting to see what happens when they don't speak English. Do the Starlets react better than the Idiots? Do they pick up the language faster? You can probably get the same info when they ultimately move to other countries though.

Great stuff.

[chopper99]

How many promotion places are up for grabs in these early leagues? Is it going to be a case of only one of them being able to make it up or could they go up side by side all the way to the Premier League (in the long term obviously)?

Just this that was asked earlier.

[Hugstari]

Just when i thought this couldn't get any better Iceland gets a Bandit

[18Rabbit]

Did any of them start with youth caps/goals? I would be curious to know how they progress internationally, especially for the ones in lower ranked nations.

[snootyjim]

Not that you can (or should) add it at this point, but it might be interesting to see what happens when they don't speak English. Do the Starlets react better than the Idiots? Do they pick up the language faster? You can probably get the same info when they ultimately move to other countries though.

Great stuff.

I think all the players have England as a second nation, so they should all be fluent.

[kipfizh]

To answer a few questions:

The league both clubs start in has 21 clubs, with one automatic promotion spot and a playoff zone from positions 2-5. At least one of the teams will have to rely on the playoffs to go up.

None of the players have any youth caps.

[kipfizh]

Starlet and Idiot Nationality Rankings

26 (-). 805 - Paraguay (Goalkeeper 1, Striker 2)
30 (-). 779 - Switzerland (Centre Back 1)
43 (-). 636 - Nigeria (Lazy Idiot Def)
48 (-). 599 - Bulgaria (Right Mid 1)
53 (-). 572 - Romania (Left Back 2)
61 (-). 514 - Scotland (Left Back 1)
67 (-). 479 - Ecuador (Right Back 1)
79 (-). 400 - Estonia (Striker 3)
87 (-). 380 - Trinidad & Tobago (Right Back 2)
89 (-). 370 - Qatar (Lazy Idiot Str)
113 (-). 273 - Wales (Driven Idiot Mid)
117 (-). 256 - Haiti (Attacking Mid 1)
121 (-). 244 - Iceland (Left Mid 1)
123 (-). 240 - Togo (Driven Idiot Str)
124 (-). 239 - Congo (Lazy Idiot Mid)
138 (-). 177 - Turkmenistan (Attacking Mid 2)
145 (-). 157 - Barbados (Defensive Mid 1)
148 (-). 146 - Belize (Driven Idiot GK)
163 (-). 106 - Mongolia (Lazy Idiot GK)
166 (-). 96 - Chinese Taipei (Driven Idiot Def)
175 (-). 81 - Comoros (Striker 4)
182 (-). 57 - Tahiti (Centre Back 4, Striker 1)
198 (-). 9 - Brunei (Goalkeeper 2)
200 (-). 6 - Anguilla (Centre Back 2)
202 (-). 3 - East Timor (Left Mid 2)
N/A (-). 0 - Martinique (Centre Back 3)
N/A (-). 0 - Zanzibar (Right Mid 2)
N/A (-). 0 - Sint Maartan (Defensive Mid 2)

Paraguay, the top ranked country that received a player, are in a great position with two starlets, while three of the starlets have to try to get their nations their first ranking point.

[magicmastermind124]

I hope you didn't start just yet as I updated the England file to fix the FA Trophy being the in game version and without the earlier rounds. Took a while to fix so sorry for any inconvenience!

[snootyjim]

I take it that's not a game breaker?

[SpiderGuard]

Not that you can (or should) add it at this point, but it might be interesting to see what happens when they don't speak English. Do the Starlets react better than the Idiots? Do they pick up the language faster? You can probably get the same info when they ultimately move to other countries though.

Great stuff.

I think all the players have England as a second nation, so they should all be fluent.

Re-reading it, I worded it horribly, but I actually was thinking it might be interesting to pick France (or something similar) as a second nation to see how they react to not speaking the language of their teammates. It might push things even more to the extreme and cause more problems with the Sheriffs.

But the good news is that this version is simulating all the major nations so we'll get to see how they react to moving to a nation where they don't speak the language.

One question that maybe I missed somewhere - do the idiots hate any clubs this time? I think they hated all the major clubs in the original, but I didn't see that limitation here. Is that still in, or are they open to any club?

[spartans5]

If I'm reading that correctly, 3 players will never even have the opportunity to qualify for a World Cup?

[Braumiller]

If I'm reading that correctly, 3 players will never even have the opportunity to qualify for a World Cup?

Which, if proves to be true, will in itself be a great side note to watch and see if no international football adversely affects the careers of those particular Bandits.

Do those 3 nations not play international football in FM (or real life) for a particular reason?
If due to low player counts, perhaps the emergence of a world class superstar will prompt generation of more from those nations?

[FlownCanary]

Love seeing this back!!!! I was here from here in 2007 and here in 2009 and cannot wait to see this progress. A small prediction from me is that in the short term the Sherrifs will do better, but that the Bandits will be better in the long run. I'm so glad I decided to come look here again. 'mon the Bandits!!!!

[5ergio]

Both 3 nations are not members of FIFA so they are ruled out of World Cup all together even though they have local affiliation with regional federations.

- Zanzibar is a member of CAF so they are eligible to join Africa Cup of Nations.
- Sint Maarten does compete in CONCACAF competitions but obviously they are the single most underpowered team. The interesting thing is Sint Maarten is the Dutch half of the island Saint Martin. After their affiliation with CONCACAF it seems they played only one game whereas the French half's national team Saint Martin is more active.
- Martinique is eligible to play in any CONCACAF & CFU (Caribbean Football Fed) competitions as well.

So I'm guessing Centre Back 3, Right Mid 2 and Defensive Mid 2 will play less games than their friends, especially no chance to show off their raw talent at the WC qualifiers.

* Info courtesy of wikipedia.com

[kipfizh]

I hope you didn't start just yet as I updated the England file to fix the FA Trophy being the in game version and without the earlier rounds. Took a while to fix so sorry for any inconvenience!

No worries - it has now started, but there are plenty of competitions for the two clubs to be involved in, and your database updates are fantastic as they are, so no worries on the FA Trophy. I don't honestly expect either club to remain in the non league system for long at any rate...

[kipfizh]

Cheers for the updates on the nationalities, and where they are in the world organisations - interesting stuff. I did briefly look at the three countries without ranking points, and they do still have fixtures - it will be interesting to see if the game has anything in store when a player ends up at a country like that.

[kipfizh]

A sneak preview

You have to laugh. You just have to.

After 67 minutes of the Sheriffs' opening league game, and with the team already 4-0 up and cruising, Driven Idiot Def threw himself into a reckless and pointless two footed challenge, getting immediately, and deservedly sent off. Manager Mike Phelan (yes, that Mike Phelan) fined him one week's wages for his stupidity, which seems perfectly reasonable.

Or at least, it would seem reasonable to reasonable people. The player immediately complained to the media about his treatment, claiming to be a scapegoat, and has instructed his agent to find him a new club. Yes, after 67 minutes of first team action. That has to be some sort of record, right?

On another note, Mike Phelan is manager of the Sheriffs, and has 155 CA. The Bandits, on the other hand, have Tom Killick, with only 12 CA. That could prove to be the Bandits' downfall this season, even with their 22 starlets. We'll see.

[Chilliconcarnie]

Looking exciting already

'Mon the bandits \o/

[yugo23]

Great preview. I am now even more excited (if there is more than 200 CE )

[chopper99]

Mike Phelan

Driven Idiot Def

A great start already.

[DB1]

Love the preview.

Quick side question. Have you set any future job preferences for the test subjects? If I remember last time no one moved into management. Have you looked into this?

[5ergio]

Tom Killick with 12 CA?!? I am already starting the regular chant from 2007! Sack, sack, sack the manager! Let's hope it won't evolve into sack the board like last time around.

[magicmastermind124]

No worries - it has now started, but there are plenty of competitions for the two clubs to be involved in, and your database updates are fantastic as they are, so no worries on the FA Trophy. I don't honestly expect either club to remain in the non league system for long at any rate...

Awesome - it's only very minor so it won't affect anything else, instead the cup is the SI version used by default.

[Braumiller]

Starlet and Idiot Nationality Rankings

26 (-). 805 - Paraguay (Goalkeeper 1, Striker 2)
30 (-). 779 - Switzerland (Centre Back 1)
43 (-). 636 - Nigeria (Lazy Idiot Def)
48 (-). 599 - Bulgaria (Right Mid 1)
53 (-). 572 - Romania (Left Back 2)
61 (-). 514 - Scotland (Left Back 1)
67 (-). 479 - Ecuador (Right Back 1)
79 (-). 400 - Estonia (Striker 3)
87 (-). 380 - Trinidad & Tobago (Right Back 2)
89 (-). 370 - Qatar (Lazy Idiot Str)
113 (-). 273 - Wales (Driven Idiot Mid)
117 (-). 256 - Haiti (Attacking Mid 1)
121 (-). 244 - Iceland (Left Mid 1)
123 (-). 240 - Togo (Driven Idiot Str)
124 (-). 239 - Congo (Lazy Idiot Mid)
138 (-). 177 - Turkmenistan (Attacking Mid 2)
145 (-). 157 - Barbados (Defensive Mid 1)
148 (-). 146 - Belize (Driven Idiot GK)
163 (-). 106 - Mongolia (Lazy Idiot GK)
166 (-). 96 - Chinese Taipei (Driven Idiot Def)
175 (-). 81 - Comoros (Striker 4)
182 (-). 57 - Tahiti (Centre Back 4, Striker 1)
198 (-). 9 - Brunei (Goalkeeper 2)
200 (-). 6 - Anguilla (Centre Back 2)
202 (-). 3 - East Timor (Left Mid 2)
N/A (-). 0 - Martinique (Centre Back 3)
N/A (-). 0 - Zanzibar (Right Mid 2)
N/A (-). 0 - Sint Maartan (Defensive Mid 2)

Paraguay, the top ranked country that received a player, are in a great position with two starlets, while three of the starlets have to try to get their nations their first ranking point.

Yeah, don't tell glennuk I said this, but Paraguay are set up to have a dominating stretch coming up!
World class GK and Striker is a deadly combo for a country with very handy players already!

Out of interest, how many Tahitians are there currently in the database?

-=Braumiller=-
Founder of the Tahitian Supporters Club, Bandit/Sheriff Universe

[snootyjim]

Brilliant

I think the Idiots could be reaching new levels of stardom in FM12

[kipfizh]

Love the preview.

Quick side question. Have you set any future job preferences for the test subjects? If I remember last time no one moved into management. Have you looked into this?

Yes, I forgot to mention this - they all have maximum manager preference and minimum for everything else, to try to drive them into management.

[BeardedDon]

Delighted that Scotland got a starlet. A forward would have been nice, but i'll settle for a left back.

I'd be interested to see how the starlets compare in terms of CA/PA to other top players with the same nationality i.e. for the Scottish left back - how far is he from already being the 1st choice for the national team? And how much is higher is his PA than the 2nd highest player available for Scotland? I assume all the starlets assigned to the real minnows will already be streets ahead of any of their countrymen and will remain so for the next 20 years, but still would be interesting.

[Coentrao]

Didn't follow the previous editions but this looks very interesting, Go Sheriffs!

[yugo23]

Kip, how far are we from first transfer windows update?

[glennuk]

Yeah, don't tell glennuk I said this, but Paraguay are set up to have a dominating stretch coming up!
World class GK and Striker is a deadly combo for a country with very handy players already!

Out of interest, how many Tahitians are there currently in the database?

-=Braumiller=-
Founder of the Tahitian Supporters Club, Bandit/Sheriff Universe

Haha, don't think you realise that i read EVERY post in experiments/challenges i am interested in. But you are right about Paraguay, dominant combination, especially for a half decent country.

-=Glennuk=-
Founder of the Paraguayan Supporters Club, Bandit/Sheriff Universe

[Hugstari]

This seems oddly familiar, refreshing this page multiple times per day... Isn't there a subscription feature or something like it?

Oh and if we are lucky Kipfizh will start this at post #101, A new update at the start of the page was how it use to go.

[glennuk]

This seems oddly familiar, refreshing this page multiple times per day... Isn't there a subscription feature or something like it?

Oh and if we are lucky Kipfizh will start this at post #101, A new update at the start of the page was how it use to go.

Does that mean that we can hurry him? haha, only joking i know he will produce the goods

[Lord Sidious]

Dug out my old account for this Have we seen the team jerseys yet? That's going to be the deciding factor for which team i support.