Closed Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 123

Thread: CPU - Shot on Target = Goal

  1. #1
    Amateur
    Join Date
    30th December 2011
    Posts
    213

    Default CPU - Shot on Target = Goal

    I am getting so sick and tired of playing games where the computer is getting very little shots off against me or if they do they are long shots and are often off target but when they do get a shot on target it goes straight in. I just played a game against a mid table team who scored 2 goals with their 2 shots on target (they had 2 shots on target all game with a total of 5 shots all together).

    A few games back i played bottom of the league, low and behold they got 2 shots on target and scored 2 goals. This seems to be happening on a constant basis. The fact that the computer teams are getting very few shots against me and when they do the majority are long shots means that my defensive tactics are working. Why is it then that the computer teams seem to be able to score almost every shot on target?

    I have seen numerous people comment on this forum about the same thing. I am just completely fed up of it, actually to the point where I am hesitating on whether i even want to buy the next game because its just frustrating.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    9th January 2011
    Posts
    525

    Default

    I haven't noticed this on FM12 oftenly to be honest,it has happened,just not as much as it used to in FM11,where it was absolutely horrible,along with woodworks,penalties,etc.(I personally find FM11 one of the worst FM of the last few years for many reason,this being one of them)

    Something that I have noticed happening a lot though are late-game comebacks. And by that I means teams scoring the winning goal against on the 90+ minutes. It seems a bit too often,like they forget that they are at around 50-65% condition left.

    Generally the match engine seems ok for this year's version though. Could be just me,so don't get me wrong.

  3. #3
    Amateur
    Join Date
    30th December 2011
    Posts
    213

    Default

    Fair play, I have noticed quite a lot and not just on this save. I mean it is completely possible that it is something to do with my tactics, but i would have thought that if i am stopping the opposition from creating much then surely there isnt much more i can do?

    I have noticed late goals for the opposition on many occassions but funny enough i find it impossible for my team to muster the strength to push for a late goal probably because as you say players have low conditions at that point. Apparently that doesnt matter to the CPU though

  4. #4
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,418

    Default

    It just means your team are letting through the really good chances for some reason, while stopping the speculative ones.

  5. #5
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    i see it happen often, usualy dominating the game, i see that 1 and think. do not deserve that there
    done a couple myself though

  6. #6
    Amateur
    Join Date
    17th July 2011
    Location
    Basingstoke
    Posts
    389

    Default

    This and woodwork are huge problems in FM12. Woodwork is simply ridiculous on 12.2, when I'm more awake tomorrow I will gather the evidence and make a thread highlighting just how unrealistic the number of times teams hit the woodwork is, literally between 1-5 times every game!

  7. #7
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default


    like this?

  8. #8
    Amateur
    Join Date
    6th December 2008
    Posts
    275

    Default

    I have what I call "Consolation Goal Time". No matter if I'm winning 1-0 or 10-0, the other team scores against me after 80+ minutes. My players arent even tired, but just.. concede every game. I don't make a fuss because I win most games at least 3-1, but it's very annoying. Solid as a rock for the first 80 minutes.

  9. #9
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,566

    Default

    A friend of mine struggles with this also. He's consistently restricting the opponent to 1-5 shots total per game, but regularly concedes all shots at goal. And then I mean -all- the shots: five games in a row saw him concede 11 goals from 11 shots at goal until the opposition finally required two shots to score the twelvth. This all started last Wednesday...

    I don't struggle with the same issue. Rather, since last Wednesday my Arsenal team has struggled away. This is very rare with my tactic (with such a strong team). For the record, he's using Mr.Hough's W4NKER tweak (or something along those lines I think). In the end he didn't score more than two goals in a match and thanks to the hyperefficiency of the AI lost rather awfully away to City. I tweaked passing range and creative freedom for him (because he was too enraged to think straight) and it seemed to improve thanks to a higher possession %, but conceded the AI's only shot again once the AI had a shot at goal...

    SI hasn't notified us of any change to the ME, but have they changed morale and/or database AI tactics? The GK's seems to do more spectacular saves.

  10. #10
    Amateur
    Join Date
    30th December 2011
    Posts
    213

    Default

    yeah this has been a recurring problem with me playing FM12 and it is really frustrating. I am not the kind of person who expects to keep 7 clean sheets in a row or anything stupid but there is clearly something going on with the shots on target to goal ratio for the AI. I have had games where I have had 60% (or there abouts) of the possession, i have had over 10 shots on target with 3/4 clear cut chances and i score maybe 2 goals. I think thats pretty realistic really. But in the same game the opposition gets 2 shots on target and they score both. This doesnt even just happen against the better teams in the league actually often i find it happens more with the teams nearer the bottom of the league.

    @BiggusD - There is definately something wrong with away games since the update. My first 12 games of the new game i started were - HOME - 5 Wins, 1 Draw, 0 Losses - AWAY - 0 Wins, 3 Draws, 3 Losses.
    Now i would expect that my team would perhaps find it more difficult away from home and the draws were against some fairly good oposition but the negative impact that playing away from home has in this game is just too large. It does make a difference in real life but its not enough to have such a bad balance. I have tried playing counter attacking football away from home, I have tried solid defensive strategies. I dont concede very much but scoring is difficult.

  11. #11
    Amateur
    Join Date
    2nd November 2011
    Posts
    110

    Default

    I wish I had a screen shot of something that happened the other night, because I laughed pretty hard when I saw the post-game summary for a Bulgarian "A" Group game (skills are in the 12-13 range for both team's strikers and defense, generally):

    Beroe: 22 shots, 2 on goal.
    Opponent: 1 shot, 1 on goal.

    Bad Guys win it 1-0. Every striker in the squad now trains finishing all day, every day =)

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    26th October 2005
    Posts
    212

    Default

    Have this problem aswell, no matter what tactic or team I use it still happens ALOT, if I had to take a guess I'd say it happens about a dozen times a season where the opposition have one shot on target and score and it's pretty amazing aswell because it's either a guy hitting a 30 yard screamer with long range of 8 or some guy who hasn't scored in30 odd games with 11 finishing scoring with his first shot against the best defence in the world, is that football? it is indeed, but not as much as it happens on FM, that's just ********.

  13. #13
    Amateur
    Join Date
    29th April 2003
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    925

    Default

    Could be true, but I think part of the reason is that people have tendincies to notice such things when it happens against them, rather than when it happens for them. Of course another reason is that human managers build very strong teams quite easily in FM, and once that happens, naturally you will have more games where you dominate the AI, and that means you will have more games when AI will only have 1-2 chances against you, which further means you will see more of the above described case. Whereas if your teams would be regularly weaker than your AI opponents, this time your team would be the one that struggles to create chances, and you will see more of these miracle wins going your way this time.

  14. #14
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    didn't a team win yesterday in the premier league 1-0 with 1 shot on target?

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    26th October 2005
    Posts
    212

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scott MUFC View Post
    didn't a team win yesterday in the premier league 1-0 with 1 shot on target?
    Aye so that means if it happens on FM 10 times more than it happens in real life it's fine, because it happened on a rare occassion in real life right? didn't Barcelona beat Leverkusen 7-1 last week, does that mean it's normal for every team to win 7-1? didn't Beckham score from the halfway line, does that make it normal if that happened in every half dozen matches in FM?

  16. #16
    Amateur
    Join Date
    29th April 2003
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    925

    Default

    I agree, that doesn't mean that it is ok if it happens so frequently in the game. All I'm saying is that it happens to our disadvantage a lot more in the game simply because we can create a world dominating side easily within a few seasons. And I guess the ME acting like this is a way to give the weaker teams a chance against much stronger teams. ME takes all the inputs from both teams and calculates the match result, and if it wouldn't throw in a 'big team gets complacent against a small team' factor in there, then we would win most of the games easily, if not every single one of them. What happens in those games is probably you dominate the AI, and the more you dominate the more complacent your players get, even though the opposition keeper is on a great day and saves them all, and on a rare occation when the opponent team gets a chance, they score. Whether the ME representation shows this goal as a 30 yard screamer or a one-on-one from a counter attack, or an early cross headed in, is a seperate issue.

    Right now I started managing a mid-table team, and I've seen this sort of thing happening both against me and for me.

  17. #17
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    no stuff happens, i am dominating everything in the league yet i only score 3 or 4 from 10+ shots, usualy the opposition keeper.
    but the FM stuff is usualy, set pieces, kick offs (so many goals within a minute of a kick off, where they just pass a few times and shoot)
    yet i am seeing my team second in the league after 10 games because i drew 1 game and they won them all, only conceding 2... come on.

    o great a draw away from home 1-1 because every single shot on target was saved and my strikers missed the target when they should be hitting it, unrealistic, they score from an own goal. and now player has abysmil morale.
    it gets annoying when some guy with poor finishing in a cup game from league 1 or 2 scores that 1 shot on target when you got rooney missing all over the place from the same position. that is frustrating and annoying.
    i dont care about balance, if i dominate a game having 10+ shots to thier 1 with 605+ possesion, conceding that 1 just spoils the game.
    esepcially as there are CPU teams going on unrealisitc runs, while i get robbed.
    Last edited by scott MUFC; 12-03-2012 at 22:37.

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    31st October 2009
    Posts
    29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scott MUFC View Post
    no stuff happens, i am dominating everything in the league yet i only score 3 or 4 from 10+ shots, usualy the opposition keeper.
    but the FM stuff is usualy, set pieces, kick offs (so many goals within a minute of a kick off, where they just pass a few times and shoot)
    yet i am seeing my team second in the league after 10 games because i drew 1 game and they won them all, only conceding 2... come on.

    o great a draw away from home 1-1 because every single shot on target was saved and my strikers missed the target when they should be hitting it, unrealistic, they score from an own goal. and now player has abysmil morale.
    Actually what annoys me more is how crap AI teams usually are. I can't remember the last time I actually had a challenge in the Premier league. City finishing about 8th and everything.

  19. #19
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    challange in the premier league?
    man city on mine
    played 11 - won 11 - scored 26 conceded 2
    just no, unrealistic

    i have drew 2 both away (what a surprise)

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    31st October 2009
    Posts
    29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scott MUFC View Post
    challange in the premier league?
    man city on mine
    played 11 - won 11 - scored 26 conceded 2
    just no, unrealistic

    i have drew 2 both away (what a surprise)
    Mad unrealistic.

    I mean this season in Citys first 11 league games they only won 10 and drew 1. SI take note

    Also two draws away from home? That is a surprise. I mean man utd only drew 10 away games last season in the league.

    I think the game hates us and wants us to fail man.

    Like Mario said WHY ALWAYS ME?

  21. #21
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    maybe possible, but the goals conceded is a bit of a joke

  22. #22
    Amateur
    Join Date
    18th January 2005
    Location
    Frozen Tundra of Alaska, USA
    Posts
    433

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scott MUFC View Post
    maybe possible, but the goals conceded is a bit of a joke
    Not necessarily. Who were the 11 teams they played against? If they had a really easy stretch of schedule to start the season, it's conceivable to have that kind of goal differential. One or two 6-7 goal games and they're over halfway there.

  23. #23
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    i have a better goal differance
    the 11 teams they played against?
    loads of home games. but they played arsenal away and chelsea away
    they have conceded to the likes of middlesborough, doncaster and dortmund in cups
    and they conceded to only chelsea and stoke.
    just outplayed them and drew 2-2 so i doubled it.

  24. #24
    Amateur
    Join Date
    16th April 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    608

    Default

    The way you guys are crying is funny..

    You're like..

    "OMG I had 20 shots, I should of scored 15 GOALS!! OMG GAME IS HACK"

  25. #25
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    no - creating 10+ shots on target with players with the quality of rooney i expect a bit more then 3 goals - i had 1 game where welbeck missed about 6 shots. that is frustrating, let alone all the ones that should have been on target.
    after one game 2 matches were generated in johnsons paint
    a 7-1
    and a 6-2
    the same day.
    spurs beat newcastle 6-0 just now on my save.
    Last edited by scott MUFC; 13-03-2012 at 01:19.

  26. #26
    Wolves researcher
    Join Date
    11th November 2004
    Location
    Cannock, UK
    Posts
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scott MUFC View Post
    no - creating 10+ shots on target with players with the quality of rooney i expect a bit more then 3 goals - i had 1 game where welbeck missed about 6 shots. that is frustrating, let alone all the ones that should have been on target.
    after one game 2 matches were generated in johnsons paint
    a 7-1
    and a 6-2
    the same day.
    spurs beat newcastle 6-0 just now on my save.
    Please tell me you are joking?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16884811

    And on the same day:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/14606020
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/14606056

  27. #27
    Amateur
    Join Date
    30th December 2011
    Posts
    213

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Wanderer View Post
    I think what he means is it happens too regularly on the game, not that it doesnt happen in real life at all.

  28. #28
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkSpeedos View Post
    I think what he means is it happens too regularly on the game, not that it doesnt happen in real life at all.
    There are too many goals in FM in general.

  29. #29
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    yes there are too many goals. but my team are not scoring them when they should be. and some teams are not conceding them

  30. #30
    Banned
    Join Date
    26th October 2005
    Posts
    212

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eastley View Post
    The way you guys are crying is funny..

    You're like..

    "OMG I had 20 shots, I should of scored 15 GOALS!! OMG GAME IS HACK"
    If you have 15 shots on target, 8 CCC's and a few 1on1's you kinda expect to score more than 2 goals whereas the other team had 4 shots on target, 1 CCC and scored 2 aswell so maybe to someone a bit dim like you that's fair game but ask any manager in the world if that's fair and I'm pretty sure they'd all say no and I'm pretty sure given those statistics they'd expect more than 2 goals.

  31. #31
    Banned
    Join Date
    26th October 2005
    Posts
    212

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Wanderer View Post
    How many times does that happen in a season? then compare how many times it happens in a season of FM and you will see the difference is HUGE so again, picking half a dozen results from hundreds and saying it's normal is very, very ******** and hilarious, keep it up.

  32. #32
    Amateur
    Join Date
    18th January 2005
    Location
    Frozen Tundra of Alaska, USA
    Posts
    433

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kingpug View Post
    If you have 15 shots on target, 8 CCC's and a few 1on1's you kinda expect to score more than 2 goals whereas the other team had 4 shots on target, 1 CCC and scored 2 aswell so maybe to someone a bit dim like you that's fair game but ask any manager in the world if that's fair and I'm pretty sure they'd all say no and I'm pretty sure given those statistics they'd expect more than 2 goals.
    Part of the problem is the game being too generous with what gets labelled a CCC. I've seen my striker getting pressured to his weaker foot from a DC and pushed his shot just wide of the post but it went down as a CCC when in reality it was at most a half chance.

  33. #33
    Amateur
    Join Date
    15th July 2010
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Posts
    209

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kingpug View Post
    If you have 15 shots on target, 8 CCC's and a few 1on1's you kinda expect to score more than 2 goals whereas the other team had 4 shots on target, 1 CCC and scored 2 aswell so maybe to someone a bit dim like you that's fair game but ask any manager in the world if that's fair and I'm pretty sure they'd all say no and I'm pretty sure given those statistics they'd expect more than 2 goals.
    I agree, when you know the guys striking the ball on your team are twice the players the opposition have, scoring at 1/15 shots while they score at 1/2. That is the problem and I do not discredit it happens rarely, just too often in game.
    I mean Ibrohimovich would not be missing like that.

  34. #34
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    the thing i find is most of mine get saved, why does my superior goalie let one in.
    i just reached a 50% of shots on target to goal ratio.... i had 12 shots on target lol

  35. #35
    Amateur
    Join Date
    14th July 2011
    Posts
    3

    Default

    You think you guys have it bad? Check this out: The 1 shot 1 goal has been in the series since around 2007 when i'd struggle to win games with shots on target for me at a dozen and the opponent at one.

  36. #36
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    you drew 1-1 to a team that had zero shots? lol wtf

    50%
    Last edited by scott MUFC; 15-03-2012 at 01:02.

  37. #37
    Banned
    Join Date
    26th October 2005
    Posts
    212

    Default

    I wouldn't even mind if it was rare but it isn't nor would I mind if my keeper was any good but in all the years I've played FM games and with almost 300 hours played on FM12 I can safely say I can count on one hand how many times my keeper has had a high rating and got MOTM regardless of who that keeper is, why do other strikers score such perfect shots into the corner of the net when the best in the world blast it straight down the keepers throat? that's what really pisses me off, happening rare is fair enough but it isn't rare on this game.

    On the other hand, I have witnessed some weird stuff on this game for example, UTD beating Liverpool 8-1 with SIX of those goals coming with TEN men and Everton winning the league in my FIRST season then getting relegated in the SECOND, what the feck? how can you go from being the champions to getting relegated! I guess this is the case for most people though, look at managers in real life who, if their team had 99% of decisions go for them they'd mention the one that didn't but still, FM is a game and even though football in general is inconsistent it's nowhere near as bad as it is on FM.

    I'd love people to find teams who consistently create 8+ chances on target per game and still lose to teams who created a quarter of that, just ain't gonna happen.

    Check this out, after 60 mins I'm down 1-3 and they've had 3 shots on target and scored 3 but this is where it gets funny to me:

    1st scorer: 1 start, 2 sub 0 goals and no shot on target yet 1 shot against me and scores.
    2nd scorer: 8 starts 0 goals and shot on target % of 30 yet 1 shot against me and scores.
    3rd scorer: 6 starts 1 sub 0 goals and no shots on target yet 1 shot against me and scores.

    I mean come on, what are the chances of this happening?
    Last edited by kingpug; 15-03-2012 at 09:27.

  38. #38
    Amateur
    Join Date
    30th December 2011
    Posts
    213

    Default

    1st scorer: 1 start, 2 sub 0 goals and no shot on target yet 1 shot against me and scores.
    2nd scorer: 8 starts 0 goals and shot on target % of 30 yet 1 shot against me and scores.
    3rd scorer: 6 starts 1 sub 0 goals and no shots on target yet 1 shot against me and scores.

    I mean come on, what are the chances of this happening?[/QUOTE]

    This is something i have noticed quite a lot too, i seem to concede a lot of goals that are that players 1st goal of the season. I mean how do players keep consistently getting their 1st goal against me?
    I think what is actually winding me up most is having a striker one on one with the keeper and blasting it miles over/wide. The least i would expect is the player to hit it on target even if it forces a save, thats fine at least that player is hitting the shot where it should be going. I always get strikers who have high composure so i'm certain its not an issue with their attributes.

  39. #39
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    i see 1st goal of the season. it is either a wondergoal or from set piece.
    what i see is my players missing sitters constantly..

  40. #40
    Banned
    Join Date
    9th January 2011
    Posts
    525

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scott MUFC View Post
    i see 1st goal of the season. it is either a wondergoal or from set piece.
    what i see is my players missing sitters constantly..
    Ye,that pretty much covers it. Always their 1st goal of the season on the PC team. I guess they waited all season long to prove themselves,on you!

    And by the way,is anyone having this pattern happening over and over again?

    1) Your team starts out well,pushing the other team really hard, they miss 2-5 shots
    2) Their rating drops for no reason
    3) Other team somehow starts pushing
    4) You lose

    It happens waaaay too often with me...it's so frustrating...

  41. #41
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    my premier league season is frustrating, reached january, scored 52 goals conceded 9. man city have conceded a mere six. why dont they get this against them?

  42. #42
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,566

    Default



    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    21 matches, 26 conceded goals. I have marked the only exception to the observation that the AI scores on their -first- shot at goal in the match. In most cases it is their only shot at goal. In most cases these are situations where their goalscorer was under heavy pressure from a Chelsea defender.

    Maybe the problem is a tactical one because this happens to my friend playing as Chelsea while I don't experience this too often either in this savegame with Arsenal or in my Bradford save. It is important to note that the selected fixtures starts with the Milan match being the first after the 12.2 patch. Both me and him experience that we also score on our first shot at goal quite often, especially since the patch.

    Nevertheless, despite possible tactical issues; why would it be a tactical problem to concede one big chance per match and creating dozens? Why is Cech's save percentage over these 21 matches 25%? How would one go about fixing a defensive issue where the opponent creates virtually nothing but is hyper-efficient regardless of player quality? Is "it's your tactics" really an adequate answer given the variation in opponent tactics, player types, playing conditions and other factors?

    How could a patch not changing the ME affect the gaming experience in such a way?

  43. #43
    Banned
    Join Date
    26th October 2005
    Posts
    212

    Default

    Played Wales as England and bummed them, they got 1 shot on target and scored when Ramsey hit a 40 yard screamer, fair enough as I won 7-1 anyway then played QPR as Chelsea and they scored 2 goals from 2 on target, both guys scoring for the first time again, now fair enough people might say I'm crap at the game but that happening twice in two matches in a row using two different teams and two different tactics with two different match instructions playing in two different stadiums against two different teams in two...well, you get the picture.

    I don't even concede a ton of goals but when I was winning everything as Barcelona you just KNEW you're going to concede atleast ONE goal a match because you just feel the game HAS to score against you so alot of my results ended with a 1 for the other side. This for me has been the biggest thing that pisses me off about FM, how damn easy it is to concede regardless of team or tactics used.

    Another thing I'd like to add is how terrible my players seem to be in 1on1 situations and that it's easier to score a 25 yard rocket that it is to score a 1on1 and no this isn't because of his composure because it happens with any team I use pretty much, I remember back in FM11 I believe I used FMRTE to put a striker with 20 stats for every major attribute then changed his PPMS aswell yet it made little difference when it came to 1on1s, infact I might just use FMRTE again to make all of my team have 20 stats and see if I still get this nonsense.
    Last edited by kingpug; 16-03-2012 at 10:45.

  44. #44
    Banned
    Join Date
    9th January 2011
    Posts
    525

    Default

    Actually it almost pretty obvious. It's a good ol' stupid mechanic that has survived since FM11. Your players continuously throw their shots on the keeper,whereas the AI players absolutely always aim for the corner of the net. No further explanation needed.

    Inb4 the "defenders" say that no such thing exists and it's our tactics.

  45. #45
    Amateur
    Join Date
    18th January 2005
    Location
    Frozen Tundra of Alaska, USA
    Posts
    433

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Apos View Post
    Actually it almost pretty obvious. It's a good ol' stupid mechanic that has survived since FM11. Your players continuously throw their shots on the keeper,whereas the AI players absolutely always aim for the corner of the net. No further explanation needed.

    Inb4 the "defenders" say that no such thing exists and it's our tactics.
    Why even bother trying to play the game if you're this jaded towards it? To think that SI puts that "mechanic" in the game is simply foolish.

  46. #46
    Banned
    Join Date
    9th January 2011
    Posts
    525

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TwinsFan86 View Post
    Why even bother trying to play the game if you're this jaded towards it? To think that SI puts that "mechanic" in the game is simply foolish.
    It's one of the first complains that appeared for the FM11 match engine and it was never fixed. I don't call that jaded towards the game.I call it being realistic. Be my guest,go check last year's threads and see for yourself.

    I'm not jaded towards the game.I'm tired of the "it's your tactics" reply,because it's not. Sorry,but when I create ~5 chances that my player is right in front of the goal and all 5 of them end up right on the keepers chest,whereas the AI needs only one such chance to score on the corner of the net,then no,it's not my tactics. I'm not talking about having 20+ shots,I'm talking about having chances that even me and you would have a high chance of scoring,let alone actual professional athletes.

    Oh,and I didn't keep on playing FM11. FM12 had a few minor tweaks that might salvage it,but it's borderline on my book compared to 10,where I will most likely end up continuing my long-term save.

    Simply foolish is you thinking that everything is perfect. I didn't say that SI put those mechanics to "cheat" the user. It's a pseudo-rubber band effect to keep the scoreline realistic. Nothing bad from their side,the contrary,realistic scorelines are welcome,but forcing the players to do bad decisions is ridiculous,especially when they have stats of 16-20 on decisions,composure,etc,etc.
    Last edited by Apos; 17-03-2012 at 06:08.

  47. #47
    Amateur
    Join Date
    6th December 2008
    Posts
    275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Apos View Post
    It's one of the first complains that appeared for the FM11 match engine and it was never fixed. I don't call that jaded towards the game.I call it being realistic. Be my guest,go check last year's threads and see for yourself.

    I'm not jaded towards the game.I'm tired of the "it's your tactics" reply,because it's not. Sorry,but when I create ~5 chances that my player is right in front of the goal and all 5 of them end up right on the keepers chest,whereas the AI needs only one such chance to score on the corner of the net,then no,it's not my tactics. I'm not talking about having 20+ shots,I'm talking about having chances that even me and you would have a high chance of scoring,let alone actual professional athletes.

    Oh,and I didn't keep on playing FM11. FM12 had a few minor tweaks that might salvage it,but it's borderline on my book compared to 10,where I will most likely end up continuing my long-term save.

    Simply foolish is you thinking that everything is perfect. I didn't say that SI put those mechanics to "cheat" the user. It's a pseudo-rubber band effect to keep the scoreline realistic. Nothing bad from their side,the contrary,realistic scorelines are welcome,but forcing the players to do bad decisions is ridiculous,especially when they have stats of 16-20 on decisions,composure,etc,etc.
    Form plays a huge part in this.

    I'm 12 years into a Barcelona save, and I have a team that can drub anyone 5-0 on their day. And I do, for the first 15-20 games of the season. I'm usually 19-1-0 or so. Then "form" runs out for no reason around Christmas-Feb. Can't score at home against the team at bottom, win 1-0 thanks to an own goal. I still make the same chances, except now I cannot score. That same striker who already has 30 for the season, and who will grab another 15 after this "form" period is up, can't score an open goal.

    It is hugely frustrating for every player to suddenly become Emile Heskey. I can understand if one or two of them lose it, or if everyone has bad periods over the year, but its all of them from Christmas-Feb.

    Not tactics.

  48. #48
    Amateur
    Join Date
    16th March 2010
    Posts
    858

    Default

    It's definitely the case that something has changed since 12.2. While I was conceding an average of 0,3-0,5 goals per game before the patch for almost 4 seasons I can barely keep a clean sheet since the 12.2 patch.

    I actually just took a look at it and noticed I conceded one goal per game (22 goals in 22 games) since the 12.2 patch. Also the goals my teams scored went down from 3,3-3,5 over the last two seasons to 2,9 over the last 22 games. Sure it's a bit uneven to really say something has significantly changed but a trend is definitely noticeable.

  49. #49
    Amateur
    Join Date
    18th January 2005
    Location
    Frozen Tundra of Alaska, USA
    Posts
    433

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Apos View Post
    It's one of the first complains that appeared for the FM11 match engine and it was never fixed. I don't call that jaded towards the game.I call it being realistic. Be my guest,go check last year's threads and see for yourself.

    I'm not jaded towards the game.I'm tired of the "it's your tactics" reply,because it's not. Sorry,but when I create ~5 chances that my player is right in front of the goal and all 5 of them end up right on the keepers chest,whereas the AI needs only one such chance to score on the corner of the net,then no,it's not my tactics. I'm not talking about having 20+ shots,I'm talking about having chances that even me and you would have a high chance of scoring,let alone actual professional athletes.

    Oh,and I didn't keep on playing FM11. FM12 had a few minor tweaks that might salvage it,but it's borderline on my book compared to 10,where I will most likely end up continuing my long-term save.

    Simply foolish is you thinking that everything is perfect. I didn't say that SI put those mechanics to "cheat" the user. It's a pseudo-rubber band effect to keep the scoreline realistic. Nothing bad from their side,the contrary,realistic scorelines are welcome,but forcing the players to do bad decisions is ridiculous,especially when they have stats of 16-20 on decisions,composure,etc,etc.
    Then I must clearly be missing something, because I don't see this happening in my games. I have players that are more consistent than others, one striker who in particular is prone to wasting easy chances, but that's why he's a rotation player and not a first team player, I only play him 15-20 games a year. I don't see a dip in "form" in Jan-Feb. Those months actually tend to be better months for me and I usually start a run to wards the top of the table in February (if I'm not already there).

    I don't think that the game "forces bad decisions" to keep scoreline realistic. I think it's a football simulation and sometimes you just get unlucky. I see AI players hit the ball straight at my keeper just as often as my strikers do. I had this happen in a game I just finished playing. My LB got caught too far forward on a ball over the top giving the AMR what should have been a pretty simple finish (hard and low to the near post would have been great) but he hit straight into my keeper's chest and that was the only good chance they had all game.

    edit: And the game was played on Jan 18th, right in the middle of when my team should be losing it's form.

  50. #50
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    every play becomes emile hesky, AND the opposition become messi, and they can beat your keeper at near post? where your shots magicaly land in a keeper hands on the other side of the goal?

  51. #51
    Third Team
    Join Date
    7th October 2008
    Location
    From Lagos to London to Chicago
    Posts
    7,176

    Default

    Tim Krul is the most annoying keeper ever

    Its fine though. He trolled united in real life too

    Personally I don't care about CCCs. I only really look at total shots, shots on target, and long shots.

    I know that when I dominate matches, the opposition will sit back in order to limit the space for my players to utilise. Thus it will always be more difficult for my players to score.
    I imagine that most of the chances that the opposition get will come from counter attacks. Fair enough.

    I understand full well the frustration of dominating but being tied or losing by a goal to a crap opponent. In my last save, before my hard drive died, I was in the carling cup quarter final again sheffield united. Dominated the match from start to finish. Took some 30, about half on target. Match went to extra time as it was tied 0-0. I didn't score until the 115 minute. Sheffield, from the kick off, went and scored the equaliser. They had one shot in the match prior to that. I won the match on penalties but I was fuming that it took that to win.

    I do agree that too many shots are taken in FM. Don't think I've ever seen barca put up 45 shots against another la liga side like I've done with them.

    This game does have its, more than a fair, share of nonsensical moments. I do feel like certain aspects of football are overexaggerated a bit in the game. Shots being the first one.

  52. #52
    Amateur
    Join Date
    1st February 2009
    Location
    Tromsø, Norway
    Posts
    564

    Default

    Why is there so much noise around something that is extremely easy to check statistically? Surely, if the computer "always" score on their first shot, someone can count the amount of times it happens, compare it to human managers, control for factors like pre-match odds, reputation and tactics, and show some convincing statistics that drives the point home.

  53. #53
    Amateur
    Join Date
    26th November 2007
    Posts
    380

    Default

    I have found various incarnations of FM are consistently inconsistent with the goals to shots ratio stat. Obviously it attempts to replicate RL events but because we can play 3 to 4 games a day, the stats becomes hugely highlighted.


    What gets my goat is how the ME in various versions inexplicably displays a missed chance by a player perfectly capable of scoring, yet a player with weaker attributes can score an outrageous chance. Personally I would prefer the ME not give me a CCC if I am going to ridiculously miss them (eg: open goals). It seems to only be shown to frustrate, whereas it should display that you are on top and you are due a goal. Creating chances should raise enthusiasm that your team is on top and your players are doing things right. But you end up feeling the pressure you are creating is for nothing, and leads you in a false sense of security.


    In some occasions on FM2011, I bought keepers with average stats whom did well against me, and they're rubbish when they're in my goal.


    And I have since changed my tactics completely because of this issue. I now play a more counter attacking system to try to create fewer, better quality chances, whilst at the same time, packing my area to remove CCCs my opponents need to score, because we know they don't need many chances, regardless of their attributes. I have basically tried to turn the issue on it's head.


    I do have to add in does occur less for me in FM2012, but misses are still highly suspect. I recently played a difficult game vs Spurs. I hammered them on chances, missed TWO open goals and scraped a 3-1 win with two late goals. Like I said, either cut out the amount of CCC, or just give us the goal. Why is it should a big deal if a player scores a CCC? Shouldn't a team be rewarded for their attacking endeavour and their ability to carve out decent CCCs?
    Last edited by bullybeef; 18-03-2012 at 12:21.

  54. #54
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bullybeef View Post
    I have found various incarnations of FM are consistently inconsistent with the goals to shots ratio stat. Obviously it attempts to replicate RL events but because we can play 3 to 4 games a day, the stats becomes hugely highlighted.


    What gets my goat is how the ME in various versions inexplicably displays a missed chance by a player perfectly capable of scoring, yet a player with weaker attributes can score an outrageous chance. Personally I would prefer the ME not give me a CCC if I am going to ridiculously miss them (eg: open goals). It seems to only be shown to frustrate, whereas it should display that you are on top and you are due a goal. Creating chances should raise enthusiasm that your team is on top and your players are doing things right. But you end up feeling the pressure you are creating is for nothing, and leads you in a false sense of security.


    In some occasions on FM2011, I bought keepers with average stats whom did well against me, and they're rubbish when they're in my goal.


    And I have since changed my tactics completely because of this issue. I now play a more counter attacking system to try to create fewer, better quality chances, whilst at the same time, packing my area to remove CCCs my opponents need to score, because we know they don't need many chances, regardless of their attributes. I have basically tried to turn the issue on it's head.


    I do have to add in does occur less for me in FM2012, but misses are still highly suspect. I recently played a difficult game vs Spurs. I hammered them on chances, missed TWO open goals and scraped a 3-1 win with two late goals. Like I said, either cut out the amount of CCC, or just give us the goal. Why is it should a big deal if a player scores a CCC? Shouldn't a team be rewarded for their attacking endeavour and their ability to carve out decent CCCs?
    The issue is that defending in FM is bad, allowing all teams to create too many big chances on each other. This has always been the case. To avoid ridiculous match scores, FM make strikers miss open chances.

    Now it seems like this only counts for shots off target, shots on target are often not saved at all, regardless of keeper and shooter quality. This is happening both for me and against me at the moment.

  55. #55
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    i get to 6-0 and can get no more , i have won 6-0 twice and 6-1 strikers go about missing sitters.
    but in a tight game, when hernandez has the entire net and misses from 5 yardsm while some midfielder with 9-10 minisihing scores his first goal of the season from outside the area. its annoying the defending in FM isn't that bad sometimes, i get a lot of shots because i want the team to make those shots.
    when you concede a random 22 shots to bolton and still win, its funny and BS at the same time especially when you create 3 on target and 3 off for the entire 90

  56. #56
    Amateur
    Join Date
    26th November 2007
    Posts
    380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    FM make strikers miss open chances.

    Great point. This is exactly how I am made to feel. Has the result been predetermined prior to the game, so no matter how many CCCs you create, only the predetermined scoreline will play out?


    Also, the argument that as much as any player can score a sitter, even a world class player can miss one has been mentioned, and obviously Torres' name crops up. But we know Torres is riddled with poor form/moral and has a psychological issue with the pressure of a large transfer fee, something that cannot be written into a game.


    And in my case, my players form and moral are at a decent level, so that cannot be the reason. Creating misses for the sake of reducing the scoreline doesn't aid a users learning experience as to whether their tactics are working. I have tried everything to enable a greater shot to goal ratio over the years, and the truth is, if it happens in real life, the excuse is already their to defend it occurring in a game.


    But we all know if a computer generated player misses a shot, he was meant to miss, which IRL would be a cheating you out of a goal.


    Like I said, improve the defending to remove the amount of CCC you create, meaning when they come, you can have a little more confidence that you will score.
    Last edited by bullybeef; 18-03-2012 at 17:34.

  57. #57
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bullybeef View Post
    Great point. This is exactly how I am made to feel. Has the result been predetermined prior to the came, so no matter how many CCCs you create, only the predetermined scoreline will play out?


    Also, the argument that as much as any player can score a sitter, even a world class player can miss one has been mentioned, and obviously Torres' name crops up. But we know Torres is riddled with poor form/moral and has a psychological issue with the pressure of a large transfer fee, something that cannot be written into a game.


    And in my case, my players form and moral are at a decent level, so that cannot be the reason. Creating misses for the sake of reducing the scoreline doesn't aid a users learning experience as to whether their tactics are working. I have tried everything to enable a greater shot to goal ratio over the years, and the truth is, if it happens in real life, the excuse is already their to defend it occurring in a game.


    But we all know if a computer generated player misses a shot, he was meant to miss, which IRL would be a cheating you out of a goal.


    Like I said, improve the defending to remove the amount of CCC you create, meaning when they come, you can have a little more confidence that you will score.
    As for the bolded question, yes the match is pre-determined if neither you nor the AI makes any changes whatsoever. That rarely happens, though. When you go into the tactical interface and change something, once you go back and the changes are loaded the ME calculates something else to happen for the rest of the game based on the present factors. There are thousands of factors including random chance.

    So if you recognize patterns that tells you that you will -never- score, for instance numerous woodwork hits, superkeepers, missing mind-numbing ccc's, braindead long-shots or other awful decisions etc etc, then that frustrated feeling you get should tell you that what you see is what you get; you won't actually score as long as things stay as they are. Then the solution is to make a tactical change. It doesn't matter what it is: what you're attempting is a re-load of the ME's calculations, assuming you know that the tactic you're using is working well.

    As such, clicking on the counter-attack button, players swapping places, offside trap on or off, Hard tackling on or off, a substitution or even something so small as on or off tight marking on a player may have the desired effect just as much as doing major changes such as swapping tactics or adjusting mentality, width, tempo, defensive line and passing style.

  58. #58
    Amateur
    Join Date
    26th November 2007
    Posts
    380

    Default

    Is this really the case??
    Last edited by bullybeef; 18-03-2012 at 20:35.

  59. #59
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bullybeef View Post
    Is this really the case??
    What exactly?

  60. #60
    Amateur
    Join Date
    23rd July 2011
    Posts
    9

    Default

    This thread is an absolute minefield of cognitive dissonance and selection bias.

    Don't read this thread if you actually know how FM works unless you're a masochist. It's painful.

  61. #61
    Banned
    Join Date
    9th January 2011
    Posts
    525

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by raaatpack View Post
    This thread is an absolute minefield of cognitive dissonance and selection bias.

    Don't read this thread if you actually know how FM works unless you're a masochist. It's painful.
    Bow before the master of FM everyone!

  62. #62
    Amateur
    Join Date
    26th October 2007
    Posts
    220

    Default

    Has anyone got any real life stats on someone like Messi and his conversion rate from chances where he's one on one with the keeper?

  63. #63
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    i dunno
    but united had 18 shots on target against wolves today, ands only scored 5.

    9/10 for accuracy in this game :P
    Last edited by scott MUFC; 19-03-2012 at 00:45.

  64. #64
    Amateur
    Join Date
    16th March 2010
    Posts
    858

    Default

    I just finished my data analysis of last season where I played 27 games before the patch 12.2 and 29 games after the patch 12.2 and it's quite interesting that the data actually supports what some people have been saying here.

    If I got it right the major complaint is that basically the AI teams need less shots on goal to score then your own team even though your own team might be vastly superior. My Dortmund side is by some margin the best team in the world atm in my 8th season with them and has dominated the league for the last 7 years and the CL for the last 6 years with winning both unbroken in a row. So it's save to say that non of the teams I meat over the course of a season are actually better then mine when it comes to player material alone.

    But let's look at the data. Before the patch I needed 7,9 shots per goal, 3,3 shots on target per goal and the ratio of CCCs to goals was 1,2 CCCs per goal. The opponent needed around 9,7 shots for one goal, 4,2 shots on target for one goal and the CCC to goal ratio was 2,1 CCCs for one goal.

    Considering that my team is vastly superior to most teams I play those stats seam to reflect pretty good the better quality of my players.

    Now let's take a look at the data after the patch 12.2 and what has changed in that time. After the patch I needed only 7 shots per goal, 3,1 shots on target per goal and the CCC to goal ratio was 1,1. All in all not a major change if anything I seam to need less chances now to score then I did before the patch even though it's not a large improvement.

    But let's take a look at how the game changed for my opponents after the patch. With patch 12.2 my opponents needed only 5,6 shots per goal, 2,6 shots on target per goal and the CCC to goal ratio was exactly 1.

    Let's put this into an overview:

    Change for my Team:
    12.1 - SpG: 7,9 - SotpG: 3,3 - CCCpG: 1,2
    12.2 - SpG: 7,0 - SotpG: 3,1 - CCCpG: 1,1

    Change for Opposition:
    12.1 - SpG: 9,7 - SotpG: 4,2 - CCCpG: 2,1
    12.2 - SpG: 5,6 - SotpG: 2,6 - CCCpG: 1,0

    Even though the changes after the patch are quite noticeable and my opponents are far more deadly in front of goal it's not prove that the patch is actually responsible for it. Seeing that I usually lead the league by quite a large margin in the second half of the season overconfidence could be a factor in why my defense is a bit less concentrated. Also the fact that I usually meat the strongest teams in the CL in the second half of the season could be a factor for this change.

    That means I have to evaluate the date of my next first season half and take only the league games to compare.

    If someone wants to use my spreadsheet to do his own data collection or just want to look at my data here is the link.

    P.S. I should mention that I play all games in full length and it usually takes me 2-3 weeks RL time to get through half a season so it might take a while before I have the new data.
    Last edited by Flohrinho; 19-03-2012 at 17:39.

  65. #65
    Amateur
    Join Date
    26th November 2007
    Posts
    380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    What exactly?

    The ME isn't an open free flowing environment? In other words, even if you view the full match live, the scoreline is always predetermined and consistently calculated, rather than ball and player physics being taken into account (or how would a calculation take into account something like a deflection etc)? Or is a deflection that either created a goal, or directly resulted in a goal, just a way the ME can full-fill the calculated scoreline at that time?


    So the ME isn't a true representation of what would happen, it just presents what HAS to happen?


    Also a team's moral isn't heightened by playing well, be it attacking (creating chances) or defending. Just because you are creating plenty of chances, your players won't be buoyed by this? Is this FMs why of simulating 'luck' no matter how ridiculous it comes across in terms of the context of a particular game. For example, opponents having few chances, that is until you score, than they go up the other end and pop one in like it was easy.


    Yet when a human player is loosing, the ME doesn't give off any optimism of the chances of an equaliser.

  66. #66
    Amateur
    Join Date
    19th November 2004
    Posts
    171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bullybeef View Post
    The ME isn't an open free flowing environment? In other words, even if you view the full match live, the scoreline is always predetermined and consistently calculated, rather than ball and player physics being taken into account (or how would a calculation take into account something like a deflection etc)? Or is a deflection that either created a goal, or directly resulted in a goal, just a way the ME can full-fill the calculated scoreline at that time?


    So the ME isn't a true representation of what would happen, it just presents what HAS to happen?


    Also a team's moral isn't heightened by playing well, be it attacking (creating chances) or defending. Just because you are creating plenty of chances, your players won't be buoyed by this? Is this FMs why of simulating 'luck' no matter how ridiculous it comes across in terms of the context of a particular game. For example, opponents having few chances, that is until you score, than they go up the other end and pop one in like it was easy.


    Yet when a human player is loosing, the ME doesn't give off any optimism of the chances of an equaliser.
    if something is predetermined how can it be constantly calculated ?

    my understanding of the ME is, if you watch the game live the outcome is not predetermined and is calculated live as you watch, if you select any of the highlight modes the ME will take every variable between the 2 games to get the result and then show it via the highlights, if you make any changes whilst watching the highlights it will recalculated the match again after they have been made and then continue with the new outcome.

    as someone else posted there has been a lot of rubbish posted in this thread that has been gone over so many times over the years i cannot believe it is still being brought up.
    Last edited by Blaupunkt; 19-03-2012 at 09:00.

  67. #67
    Banned
    Join Date
    9th January 2011
    Posts
    525

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaupunkt View Post
    if something is predetermined how can it be constantly calculated ?

    my understanding of the ME is, if you watch the game live the outcome is not predetermined and is calculated live as you watch, if you select any of the highlight modes the ME will take every variable between the 2 games to get the result and then show it via the highlights, if you make any changes whilst watching the highlights it will recalculated the match again after they have been made and then continue with the new outcome.

    as someone else posted there has been a lot of rubbish posted in this thread that has been gone over so many times over the years i cannot believe it is still being brought up.
    Nope,the result is predetermined,no matter on what highlight mode you play on. Only when you change your tactics or make a substitution(also slightly with team talks) does a minor recalculation happen and the result might change.

    But good thing we got you and that other guy with the 4 posts to enlighten us simpletons that post rubbish. Next time my players start playing dodgeball with the AI keeper,I'll remember you and how stupid I must be to believe it has anything to do with pre-determined results.

  68. #68
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaupunkt View Post
    if something is predetermined how can it be constantly calculated ?

    my understanding of the ME is, if you watch the game live the outcome is not predetermined and is calculated live as you watch, if you select any of the highlight modes the ME will take every variable between the 2 games to get the result and then show it via the highlights, if you make any changes whilst watching the highlights it will recalculated the match again after they have been made and then continue with the new outcome.

    as someone else posted there has been a lot of rubbish posted in this thread that has been gone over so many times over the years i cannot believe it is still being brought up.
    Full match is also highlights, in the sense that you can't change tactics while the ball is in the air so to speak.

    What you see in FM isn't happening real-time. Every time the ball goes out of play, there is a chance that the ME will calculate a different course of events, but while the ball is moving the outcome of that "highlight" is already calculated. However, this is not to say that the ME starts out with the end result and then fits everything else into place. Everything that is animated happened for a reason, and that reason is either tactical, motivational, tied to player quality or just pure chance.

    Nevertheless, there are limitations to the game compared to real life; there are only so many animations. Many of the frustrating elements of the game are ultimately caused by this - for instance the lack of good defending is not necessarily caused by a faulty ME but by the fact that people want to score goals and watch nice attacking play so there are quite simply less "good defending" animations than there are "good attacking" ones. Most "good defending" animations are actually those that are starting counter-attacks, in my experience. It is also a real-life fact that most goals come from defensive errors rather than fantastic attacking moves which are hard to defend against just from sheer awesomeness, and this is included in the game too. This is why I instantly think (or yell) "ohkaaaay two missed tackles in a row. Certainly a goal!" when a defensive error is made. Experience has taught me that losing two challenges in a row often means a CCC is coming up. I am rarely wrong about that, but those chances aren't always converted.

    In other words, it certainly -feels- like what happens in FM is what -has- to happen for a goal to be made, but the ME doesn't work that way. It is just that some animations are far fetched to me; when an opponent player inferior in quality skips past two defenders making tackles before crossing to another low-quality player who traps the ball perfectly and blasts the ball into goal while my world-class defenders are both looking at something in the stands, completely oblivious... what is that supposed to do to suspension of disbelief?

  69. #69
    Amateur
    Join Date
    26th November 2007
    Posts
    380

    Default

    I am very grateful for this thread. I usually view the full match to take any premeditated, predetermined decisions from being made that could easily be construed as suspect, such as being out of context with match events or player form (top striker missing sitters). Now I know it doesn't really matter. But obviously the problem with watching highlights is, goal misses will be shown in more detail, which only causes even more frustration and disillusionment. In the past, when I get frustrated with the ME, I don't watch it at all, and select commentary only.


    But knowing now that if you haven't even scored in the first 15mins, especially if you're playing well, just changing something can issue a positive cause and effect. Yeah this can also have an adverse affect, but just by using this knowledge in one game, I have recorded by biggest win in a good few games. I suppose I have to change my mindset that CCC may as well be a 40 yard shot. It will only go in if it was meant to.


    It is sad that this has nothing to do with tactics, it is just a simple case of seeing that the game isn't going to give you a goal unless you make a change. And I was trying to be patient!


    Now for my next bug bear - out of context injuries (a playing being fouled and suffering a long-term hamstring injury - the only way to pull or tear a hamstring is by running).
    Last edited by bullybeef; 19-03-2012 at 09:50.

  70. #70
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bullybeef View Post
    I am very grateful for this thread. I usually view the full match to take any premeditated, predetermined decisions from being made that could easily be construed as suspect, such as being out of context with match events or player form (top striker missing sitters). Now I know it doesn't really matter. But obviously the problem with watching highlights is, goal misses will be shown in more detail, which only causes even more frustration and disillusionment. In the past, when I get frustrated with the ME, I don't watch it at all, and select commentary only.


    But knowing now that if you haven't even scored in the first 15mins, especially if you're playing well, just changing something can issue a positive cause and effect. Yeah this can also have an adverse affect, but just by using this knowledge in one game, I have recorded by biggest win in a good few games. I suppose I have to change my mindset that CCC may as well be a 40 yard shot. It will only go in if it was meant to.


    It is sad that this has nothing to do with tactics, it is just a simple case of seeing that the game isn't going to give you a goal unless you make a change. And I was trying to be patient!


    Now for my next bug bear - out of context injuries (a playing being fouled and suffering a long-term hamstring injury - the only way to pull or tear a hamstring is by running).
    It -might- have something to do with tactics. It is only when you know confidently that your tactic is good and should give you goals (or defend well, for that matter) that the observation that you're missing clear chances or multiple woodwork hits should lead to the decision to make a change... -any- change. If your Classic tactic isn't consistently making a clear difference compared to the AI or your TC+Shout tactical decisions weren't giving you that expected edge, changing a random minor factor may not help at all.

  71. #71
    Amateur
    Join Date
    26th November 2007
    Posts
    380

    Default

    I decided to replay the same game again as a test, beginning with my starting tactic. At the same point, I made the same slight tactical change, and low a behold, the first goal was scored. I then decided to view the game in highlight mode, and although I didn't win by the same scoreline (3-0), the same players scored, the second goal was a penalty scored by my central defender (his goal in the first game was from a FK)! What are the chances? It must have been destiny!


    Incidentally, in the first game, I had 3 CCC and scored 3. This time I had no CCC and score 2. The truth is, the shots to goals ratio is a fallacy, it means nothing.


    My frustration has now changed to humour at the fact the ME is really a gimmick, and due to so many possible outcomes, we have little idea of what we are doing is really making a difference. Is it 'luck' or good management? We'll never really know. I think I'll play the game again without making any changes.
    Last edited by bullybeef; 19-03-2012 at 10:35.

  72. #72
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bullybeef View Post
    I decided to replay the same game again as a test, beginning with my starting tactic. At the same point, I made the same slight tactical change, and low a behold, the first goal was scored. I then decided to view the game in highlight mode, and although I didn't win by the same scoreline (3-0), the same players scored, the second goal was a penalty scored by my central defender (his goal in the first game was from a FK)! What are the chances? It must have been destiny!


    Incidentally, in the first game, I had 3 CCC and scored 3. This time I had no CCC and score 2. The truth is, the shots to goals ratio is a fallacy, it means nothing.


    My frustration has now changed to humour at the fact the ME is really a gimmick, and due to so many possible outcomes, we have little idea of what we are doing is really making a difference. Is it 'luck' or good management? We'll never really know. I think I'll play the game again without making any changes.
    Replaying games is a fallacy too, but once I couldn't believe my eyes when for some reason I don't remember I replayed a game. The same animations occured in the same minutes they did in the last run, and in the same order with exactly the same outcome. It was astonishing! It really was a rerun! Knowing the outcome of the match, I changed some tactical stuff and from then on the match differed from the previous one. I have never seen anything like it before or after...

  73. #73
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    31st March 2010
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    1,156

    Default

    I think your taking peoples opinions as fact far too readily. Tactics do matter and not scoring in the first 15 minutes does NOT mean you always have to make a change to get a goal. Replaying one match where certain factors are already set in place will prove nothing. If the same players scored perhaps this is more to do with motivation than pre-determined results.

    I was under the impression that the ME plays out the first half which generates a result and then shows you the highlights. If you make changes then it re-calculates and generates new highlights. Obviously at this stage the second half is yet to be played out as the decisions required are yet to be set in place.

    I may be wrong as this is just something I've heard elsewhere but your assertion that the ME is just a gimmick is wrong IMO.

  74. #74
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,418

    Default

    If you're seeing this happen in-game more often than you would in real life it's for one very simple reason.

    Real life managers change things up when it isn't working. Hell, they change things up when it is working, too.

  75. #75
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    If you're seeing this happen in-game more often than you would in real life it's for one very simple reason.

    Real life managers change things up when it isn't working. Hell, they change things up when it is working, too.
    How could "the opponent created one chance all match" mean that "things aren't working"?

  76. #76
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,418

    Default

    Because you didn't win.

  77. #77
    Banned
    Join Date
    9th January 2011
    Posts
    525

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    Because you didn't win.
    How are we supposed to predict the 1 shot goal from god knows where in the 90+ minute? Especially when they haven't shown any evidence of being able to beat the defence...

  78. #78
    Amateur
    Join Date
    19th November 2004
    Posts
    171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    Full match is also highlights, in the sense that you can't change tactics while the ball is in the air so to speak.

    What you see in FM isn't happening real-time. Every time the ball goes out of play, there is a chance that the ME will calculate a different course of events, but while the ball is moving the outcome of that "highlight" is already calculated. However, this is not to say that the ME starts out with the end result and then fits everything else into place. Everything that is animated happened for a reason, and that reason is either tactical, motivational, tied to player quality or just pure chance.

    Nevertheless, there are limitations to the game compared to real life; there are only so many animations. Many of the frustrating elements of the game are ultimately caused by this - for instance the lack of good defending is not necessarily caused by a faulty ME but by the fact that people want to score goals and watch nice attacking play so there are quite simply less "good defending" animations than there are "good attacking" ones. Most "good defending" animations are actually those that are starting counter-attacks, in my experience. It is also a real-life fact that most goals come from defensive errors rather than fantastic attacking moves which are hard to defend against just from sheer awesomeness, and this is included in the game too. This is why I instantly think (or yell) "ohkaaaay two missed tackles in a row. Certainly a goal!" when a defensive error is made. Experience has taught me that losing two challenges in a row often means a CCC is coming up. I am rarely wrong about that, but those chances aren't always converted.

    In other words, it certainly -feels- like what happens in FM is what -has- to happen for a goal to be made, but the ME doesn't work that way. It is just that some animations are far fetched to me; when an opponent player inferior in quality skips past two defenders making tackles before crossing to another low-quality player who traps the ball perfectly and blasts the ball into goal while my world-class defenders are both looking at something in the stands, completely oblivious... what is that supposed to do to suspension of disbelief?
    so as i said its calculated as you watch, in 1 of my saves my team (Newcastle UTD) are more than capable of defending very well, very rarely do i ever dominate teams who are on paper better than me, they are usually in total control for passes, possession, shots, etc and often i manage a 1-0 win or a 1-1 draw, teams that are the same level or worse i can usually beat and to some extent dominate.

    one of the problems a lot of people have with the amount of chances that are created is the fact it is hard and in some cases impossible to tell how good the actual chance is, if might look like a great chance when you watch the 3D highlights but the reality is that a lot of the chances created are at best only a half chance and often worse, if you create 30 chances in total than you can have a guess that at least 20 of those chances are very difficult to convert, of the other 10 some you will score with some will be missed because its only a half chance or just because the player in question messed up for any number of reasons.

    @ Apos as as PaulC onces said many months (years) ago on these very forums,

    No score is predetermined before playing a match through. The playthrough creates the result. Yes, we play through once before showing highlights in order to create the highlights.
    im sure you will not believe me either as apparently i don't know what im talking about seeing as i don't have a HUGE post count, because that means everything doesn't it! >CLICK ME< and read post number 10.

    i am quite sure the ME still works in the same way seeing as i have not read anything so say other wise.

  79. #79
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Apos View Post
    How are we supposed to predict the 1 shot goal from god knows where in the 90+ minute? Especially when they haven't shown any evidence of being able to beat the defence...
    A one-off is just that. A regular occurrence means something is wrong.

    The only thing stopping it from changing is the manager's stubbornness.

  80. #80
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaupunkt View Post
    i am quite sure the ME still works in the same way seeing as i have not read anything so say other wise.
    Yes, it still works in the same way.

  81. #81
    Banned
    Join Date
    9th January 2011
    Posts
    525

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaupunkt View Post
    @ Apos as as PaulC onces said many months (years) ago on these very forums,



    im sure you will not believe me either as apparently i don't know what im talking about seeing as i don't have a HUGE post count, because that means everything doesn't it! >CLICK ME< and read post number 10.

    i am quite sure the ME still works in the same way seeing as i have not read anything so say other wise.
    Well,so that means that if you don't change anything,then the score is predetermined (since it's already played before to create the highlights) and that it has internals where recalculations happen.(aka when tactic changes,team talks,shouts,etc happen) Not really different from what I said really? Maybe a little? Or maybe you just misunterstood me.

    And about the post count,I don't know why you brought that up, but that someone who I mentioned having 4 posts since half a year ago,which pretty much means that he has been inactive since ever,so the chances of him seeing old posts that actually discuss about the matter are beyond slim. I don't get why you yourself took it personal though.
    Last edited by Apos; 19-03-2012 at 14:04.

  82. #82
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    key rule.
    cant win anywhere + oppositon morale destroyed = you will lose 1-0

  83. #83
    Amateur
    Join Date
    26th November 2007
    Posts
    380

    Default

    This is a fascinating discussion and proof that the fundamental and vital part of the whole game is how the ME translates the match calculations into visible animations. Of course, unless the FM ME was a playable environment, like pro evo, were game physics would create a more realistic result based upon player abilities and management tactical knowledge (simply put, having a player physically in the way of an attacking player would prevent a goal, be it defender or goalkeeper), opinions and consensus will forever be debated. Many of us have played FM for dozens of years, decades, and we're still none the wiser.

    But even if the FM ME was a playable, physical environment, the result would still be has erratic as it is now, because variables now including human error could be definitively blamed for a poor result. But I like this would be more acceptable than not knowing why something went wrong. The question I say every time a result goes against me is, If we don't know what we have done wrong, how do we learn from it?


    I recall a player management game going back over 20 years ago called Kick Off - Player Manager. The ME was taken from a pro evo like football sim, which added management. In the first instance you arrived at the club as an ageing legend, able to control your player amongst AI players in your team, that is until you eventually decide to retire. Then the game becomes the first and best football management game I have ever played. Why? For the reasons I have given. Knowing the ME environment is played in real time, and game physics cannot predetermined an event based upon a tactical adjustment (if I recall correctly, you could only change formation and substitutions), so it was simply down to how well your players played and your starting tactical set up. Yeah, it was very basic, but there is something more acceptable about loosing knowing there was either nothing you could do, or it WAS your mistake.


    More often on FM, I don't feel the game is honest and like many of the reasons mentioned above, I understand sometimes the game cannot translate the desired animation to physically show a calculated outcome. I feel because the ME calculates events before the fact, the game itself is deceiving the player into either believing you are playing well, creating chances, and there's no need for changes. Then when you take a lead and you make a change to tightening things up at the back, or maybe instruct a player to run less with the ball to conserve energy, an equaliser, or winning goal against you comes along making little sense why changing something that wasn't detrimental to defending, caused or effected you teams ability to keep a clean sheet.


    Incidentally, upon replaying the same game as I mention above for a third time, without making any in game changes this time, my opponents took the lead for the first time; central defender Wes Brown score a 30 yard screamer! And this tiny incident, in a meaningless test game, is exactly why we feel deceived at times. There are so many reasons why Wes Brown hasn't and will never score a 30 screamer, yet in FM, in this game, at that moment, my opponents were meant to score, regardless of whom it was or what his attributes state. I am not a betting man, and I would be very confident to go and put a bet on that Wes Brown would not score a 30 yarder for the rest of his career. The test game finished 1-1 this time.


    Surely, if the ME was so smart, if my opponents HAD to score against me, and the most plausibly calculation was a 30 years screamer, than at least let a player whom has good long shots rating take that opportunity. It is the silliest thing I have ever seen and a shocking embarrassment to a game that we all take very seriously! Me included.
    Last edited by bullybeef; 19-03-2012 at 15:44.

  84. #84
    First Team Squad Member
    Join Date
    9th November 2010
    Location
    Standing free, wherever i may be
    Posts
    15,241

    Default

    When people start to understand that a player with 1 for long shots is capable of scoring from 30 yards, they will start to understand the ME better, until then you have no chance.

  85. #85
    Third Team
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Posts
    7,491

    Default

    he is, but he should not be doing it when someone with a long shot of 15 has missed 5 :P

  86. #86
    First Team Squad Member
    Join Date
    9th November 2010
    Location
    Standing free, wherever i may be
    Posts
    15,241

    Default

    Again, that shows you do not understand how the ME works.

  87. #87
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaupunkt View Post
    so as i said its calculated as you watch, in 1 of my saves my team (Newcastle UTD) are more than capable of defending very well, very rarely do i ever dominate teams who are on paper better than me, they are usually in total control for passes, possession, shots, etc and often i manage a 1-0 win or a 1-1 draw, teams that are the same level or worse i can usually beat and to some extent dominate.

    one of the problems a lot of people have with the amount of chances that are created is the fact it is hard and in some cases impossible to tell how good the actual chance is, if might look like a great chance when you watch the 3D highlights but the reality is that a lot of the chances created are at best only a half chance and often worse, if you create 30 chances in total than you can have a guess that at least 20 of those chances are very difficult to convert, of the other 10 some you will score with some will be missed because its only a half chance or just because the player in question messed up for any number of reasons.

    @ Apos as as PaulC onces said many months (years) ago on these very forums,



    im sure you will not believe me either as apparently i don't know what im talking about seeing as i don't have a HUGE post count, because that means everything doesn't it! >CLICK ME< and read post number 10.

    i am quite sure the ME still works in the same way seeing as i have not read anything so say other wise.
    So where exactly am I contradicting what PaulC said?

    And Ackter... seriously? That's your answer? Take a look at post #42 and try to answer again, more intelligently this time.

  88. #88
    First Team Squad Member
    Join Date
    9th November 2010
    Location
    Standing free, wherever i may be
    Posts
    15,241

    Default

    He is right, if things were working, you wouldnt have lost.

  89. #89
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,566

    Default

    [QUOTE=milnerpoint;7670122]He is right, if things were working, you wouldnt have lost.[/QUOTE

    What makes you think I have lost?

  90. #90
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,418

    Default

    What I said still applies to post #42.

    This is a game, doing certain things to the engine can cause it to throw out weird things. If you keep doing them, weird keeps happening.

  91. #91
    First Team Squad Member
    Join Date
    9th November 2010
    Location
    Standing free, wherever i may be
    Posts
    15,241

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    He is right, if things were working, you wouldnt have lost.
    What makes you think I have lost?
    Sorry, lost a goal, missed part of that
    Using your tactics to see if the ME is solid or not is to be avoided, as we have discussed at lengths your tactics are not based on football, they are based on beating the ME, when you go down that route expect things to go wrong.

  92. #92
    Amateur
    Join Date
    26th November 2007
    Posts
    380

    Default

    I understand that any player, no matter what league they play in can score a goal from anywhere IRL, regardless of their stats. But if we are so driven to identify specify attributes for potential signings in FM, why do we bother if a player with one can score a wonder-goal. Although, you can bet that same player wouldn't do that in your team.


    FM strives to be like real life, but we know it is impossible. I think we get bogged down in using the "IRL" acronym too much. A computer game isn't real life. A computer game has to have a learning curve, a sense of achievement that you learn to understand what works and doesn't work.


    But I wouldn't instruct a player with 1 for long shots to take long shots, because the player attributes tell me there's little chance of it occurring. So to contradict that by defending the AI when does it occurs against you hypocritical. I understand now, that was just a calculated goal, it just happen to be Wes Brown whom scored it.


    I have learned over the years not to spend huge money on a player with world class attributes, because in FM it means little.


    I read a tactics thread a while back from FM2011 that using the analysis page is vital to understand whether you are creating good quality chances. But if the game calculates that you aren't going to score in a particular game unless you alter something, it doesn't matter how many good quality chances you actually create. That's deception and contradiction. You are being told you are doing something right when you aren't. And your opponents aren't being punished for poor defending, they're just getting away with it. My perception that I was playing well, and patience was the key, is now being accused as stubbornness.


    And please don't tell me this is just 'luck'. Luck isn't tangible, it can't be written into a game. If a force outside of your own control is causing you own players to miss, I am afraid that is a cheat, there's no other word for it. If I am playing well, and my tactics are creating good quality CCC, why is it such I big deal that I score them. Whom is it going to hurt? Like I said earlier up, remove the amount of CCC for both teams, so when they come along, you know you are going to score. I couldn't care less now if I have a CCC, and I rarely celebrate a goal any more, because I don't know if the goal came along because I did something right, or if the ME calculation gave me it.


    Incidentally, what I have forgot to mention, because I play defensively, I don't tend to conceded many goals anyway, which is why I hate it when it occurs, but when I do, it is usually a mistake be my own player. Rarely do I see an AI defensive mistake, even when I do score.


    But like we have been saying, if the calculation before the fact says there will be a goal, there will be one, regardless whom scores it. Football isn't about calculations; it isn't math. I was incredibly wrong to assume viewing the full match gave a fairer result.
    Last edited by bullybeef; 19-03-2012 at 16:41.

  93. #93
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,418

    Default

    Viewing the full match only gives a better result if you're actually reacting to what you're seeing.

    You're completely misunderstanding how the match engine works.

  94. #94
    First Team Squad Member
    Join Date
    9th November 2010
    Location
    Standing free, wherever i may be
    Posts
    15,241

    Default

    Yeah your really not understanding the ME at all here.

  95. #95
    Amateur
    Join Date
    26th November 2007
    Posts
    380

    Default

    I just wanted to add, the CCC issue is similar to injuries. Why would a fully fit player be injured? Yes it does occur in RL, but how is it calculated in a game? In a game there should be a calculated risk for the human player to be aware one of his players may pick up an injury before the event. And yet, if a player picks up a knock, he rarely has to come off, and rarely is he out of months.


    But a lengthy injury seem to always occur in big game and when you are comfortably winning? It feels like you are punished for doing well.


    Sorry to change topic, but it came up in a game recently.

  96. #96
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,418

    Default

    Selective memory is a wonderful thing.

  97. #97
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th March 2011
    Posts
    4,566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Sorry, lost a goal, missed part of that
    Using your tactics to see if the ME is solid or not is to be avoided, as we have discussed at lengths your tactics are not based on football, they are based on beating the ME, when you go down that route expect things to go wrong.
    If you download my tactic and take a look at the instructions you'll see that there is very little exploitative to it. If all it takes to "beat the ME" is to take a 4-2-4 tactic, move the two MC's to DMC position and tell the entire team to be suitably aggressive, then SI has a problem...

    My teams always play very nice football, so saying that the tactic is not based on football is a bit off target. Besides, I play as Arsenal in that savegame. Chelsea is controlled by a friend who downloaded Mr. Hough's tactics. As I have said a couple of times, I don't experience the same with my teams - rather, I score on my first shot at goal quite often... So sure it can and probably is a tactical issue.

    But then again, how could it possibly be a tactical problem to restrict the opposition to one, none or very few shots per match? That is, for me, the real issue here. Whether or not the tactic is "gamey" or "exploit" is not very interesting in this case, since the variety of opponents, playing conditions and other factors should virtually guarantee that the hyperefficiency in question is not caused by the same achilles heel of Mr.Hough's tactical instructions. If anything, it's the AI that uses an exploit against my friend, not the other way around!

  98. #98
    Moderator
    Join Date
    28th June 2004
    Location
    Guess you only get one chance in life to play a song that goes like this.
    Posts
    35,418

    Default

    In real football, restricting the opponents to 0 shots is obviously ideal. At the same time, restricting the opponents to a few shots has proven costly in real football time and time again (Arsenal from around 4 or 5 maybe years ago being the best example, where 18 of their matches involved the opposition having 5 or less shots and Arsenal either losing or drawing the game).

  99. #99
    Amateur
    Join Date
    26th November 2007
    Posts
    380

    Default

    Confused isn't the word. I think we need a bit more than we don't understand the ME, I mean, I only bought the game. Of course we don't understand it, that's why we're here. Please, explain it to us. Are events premeditated and calculated, and is it a fact we are missing CCC a sign for us to make changes? All these opinions are really confusing.

  100. #100
    Amateur
    Join Date
    26th November 2007
    Posts
    380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    Selective memory is a wonderful thing.

    You're pretty rude, aren't you. And you're a mod here? So much for support.
    Last edited by bullybeef; 19-03-2012 at 17:01.

Closed Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts