12.2 regens from inactive nations - how is the situation now?

**Koki** · 09-03-2012 10:47

Some users raised the point that inactive nations produced too many good players in 12.1 - the problem wasn't necessarily that there were too many world class regens but too many good regens.

For those who didn't agree with that... please skip reading, I think we can't come to an agreement whether the regen quality was/is realistic or not.

For those who thought that too many good regens were produced in 12.1 - How do you find the regen quality of FM 12.2 regens? I just holidayed 4 years with a new savegame to see how the situation is. Unfortunately the amount of good e.g. Czech regens is amazing! I think their U21-team could easily compete for a midtable position in the EPL :-S
Edit: Egypt's regens are terribly good again, too!

So what do you think of 12.2 regens so far?

**Stu Coleman** · 09-03-2012 13:07

The general issue for newgens from inactive nations is believed fixed in 12.2

Cheers.

**Koki** · 09-03-2012 16:44

Thanks for your reply, Stu. I sincerely appreciate that SI took the time to look into an issue which might not even be visible to everybody.
I did a 4 year-holiday test and my impression is that the regen quality for non-active league hasn't really dropped. Unfortunately I use the attribute masking feature so I don't have access to all players but here are some screenshots from the savegame:

The problem is that screenshots don't prove anything. Each player is okay apart from the others. I could show you 20 screenshots and you would be right to say that in the original db there are more than 20 young players that have the same kind of attributes or even better ones.
So don't get me wrong, I think we absolutely need top class regens but I think there are still too many good regens produced for small countries. As stated above, the Czech Republic U21 squad could already compete for a EPL midtable position - after 4 years. If I multiply this by 3 (so we have 12 years, roughly the age-span of a national team) it is easy to see that their national team will soon be world beaters. No, they won't! Because the other nation's regens are as good as they are.

Please don't take this as a rant. I am only concerned about an area of the game which is very important for me. Maybe the general regen generation works fine and the original young players in the database are too weak? Or the regen templates interfere with this? I don't know. I can only say that the U21-players from most nations have only few attributes 15+ and about maybe 35% 10+ in the database but the regens' attributes are appear a lot higher in general to me. I know that it must be a hard job to fine tune this issue especially regarding the fact that every user has a different database size and you have to assure that the regen quality in savegames with small db's doesn't drop. All I can do is to offer you the savegame and my "feeling" that something still isn't working. You are the developers, you have to decide how to go on from here

**Koki** · 09-03-2012 16:44

Again, the problem are not the regens for themselves but these are only some of the regens from 2 nations created within 4 years...

**milnerpoint** · 09-03-2012 16:47

Urg what a horrible colour scheme for your attributes.

(sorry not related to the thread at all

)

**Apos** · 09-03-2012 17:18

Oh good,so realism has to suffer because some players are too lazy to scout outside their country?...Great...

Wish I knew where your problem lies with that. Can't be arsed risking the chance of missing a new good regen thanks to bad scouting? Did your rival team grab a wonderkid because you missed him?

Fixed or not,personally I wouldn't want this changed anyway. I like scouting in various countries and not just 1-2.

**Koki** · 09-03-2012 17:21

Originally Posted by Apos

Oh good,so realism has to suffer because some players are too lazy to scout outside their country?...Great...

Wish I knew where your problem lies with that. Can't be arsed risking the chance of missing a new good regen thanks to bad scouting? Did your rival team grab a wonderkid because you missed him?

Fixed or not,personally I wouldn't want this changed anyway. I like scouting in various countries and not just 1-2.

Err.. I think you misunderstood what I wanted to say... I do scout almost all nations and this is why I find so many good regens - more than I think are realistic. I just can't show you all examples because I play WITH attribute marking and these are just some players from just two countries generated within 4 years - plus they are still young and will develop to even become better. The biggest delight I get is to scout small countries and find a gem but in FM12 it is rather like finding gems on every corner of every country. I agree that there have to be great players from small countries to make the game and scouting entertaining.

Again, this is a personal opinion, if you don't care to read the thread properly or don't agree - just go and have a nice weekend

**Apos** · 09-03-2012 17:34

And why is it wrong findings gems on various countries? Do you think that some natonalities are bound to be better players than others? I could call racism here,but I won't so easily,you are close there though.

Thing is,physical abilities are all up to genetics,not nationality,something that is reflected in-game through a random number. If you can't accept that that random number happened to be given a few more times in Czesh Rep. or Egypt,then really I don't know what to say. It could be anything. There have been occasions where saves had over 20 French or Brazilian wonderkids. Would you prefer that?

Like you said,it's not that many wonderkids are being generated,just a big amount of good players. Are you saying that Egyptians are practically incapable of becoming good players? You found 2 egyptians alright. What is the star rating of the rest egyptian database? 1-3 stars? So those 2 are a problem because they break that tendency?

Originally Posted by Koki

Again, this is a personal opinion, if you don't care to read the thread properly or don't agree - just go and have a nice weekend

No,it's not. It's a personal opinion that you want to pass as a problem,where it can be something that is perfectly normal and doesn't need to be touched at all. "Fixing" your game and problem ruins mine and could potentially ruin others' as well. So no,I wouldn't go and have a nice weekend without replying.

**milnerpoint** · 09-03-2012 17:41

To be fair to koki it was acknowledged as an issue by SI that inactive nations were producing too many brilliant regens, thats not to say you should never find one, just maybe a bit less often than pre-patch.

**Arkas** · 09-03-2012 17:57

So only active leagues should be producing world class regens...
So if you pick one country after 10 years that country must be the best.
So that doesnt make any sense.
The 12.1 system was good and shouldn't even been examined/changed..

**milnerpoint** · 09-03-2012 18:04

Thats not what is being said, i personally didnt think there was an issue, but if you really really look you will see African nations especially producing too many top top players in all positions, SI said the inactive nations were producing too many of them, no one is saying they should never produce great players, but maybe just a few less than they have been.

**Koki** · 09-03-2012 18:12

Originally Posted by Apos

No,it's not. It's a personal opinion that you want to pass as a problem

Okay, you're right about this one. Haven't thought of it that way. Valid point!

Originally Posted by Apos

And why is it wrong findings gems on various countries? Do you think that some natonalities are bound to be better players than others? I could call racism here,but I won't so easily,you are close there though.

Okay, I will say this once more: I do agree with you and always have that small countries should be able to produce good regens - otherwise it wouldn't be realistic and there wouldn't be much point in scouting. But then again there shouldn't be more good players generated than in reality for each of the small countries. Wouldn't you agree? That is not to say that these nations aren't capable of playing football but currently they aren't capable of creating better footballers because of their limited population, poor youth training or whatever. So I wouldn't care if every regen had a PA of 200. The potential they actually reach matters. The point is whether there are more good players generated in game than there are in reality for a country.

We had a thread like this before and I found that it is pretty pointless in discussing as the regen quality is perceived and rated differently by every user. Don't we all share the love for this game and our only aim is to make it better and more realistic? I felt I could help improving it with my observations.

@ milnerpoint: Thanks for the help, colour philistine

@ Arkas: It was acknowledged by SI that prior to the last patch inactive nations produced too many good regens. Please read the whole thread before assuming what it is about. I actually think that we are in the same boat except for your last sentence.

BTW: I'm off to start my new savegame with a -10% youth rating file I created. If users feel there is something wrong but get turned down by the majority, they should accept it and simply edit the game for their likings and stop whining

**milnerpoint** · 09-03-2012 18:17

Your colours are terrible tho

Although saying that i use light green for best, light yellow for second best, light blue for third best and white for rubbish, with the dark skin it kinda looks like an FM acid party

**BiggusD** · 09-03-2012 18:20

Actually, when you set aside the point that none of these players are world class when compared to the original database, you ignore a core argument against the notion that regens are too good already before we begin the discussion. How is it possible to argue against your view when you have set the stage like that?

Look at this guy:

He is now, three seasons later, one of the best players in the world. Absolutely worldclass. He is up there with the very best from the original database. In my game, there aren't too many of his calibre (although way too many hyper-quick strikers and wingers). After 9 seasons I would say that some of the really big clubs around the world have 1-2 players comparable to him. The player quality you are complaining about are not dominating the mid-table clubs at all in my save. While Manchester City has built up a better team than in 2011 over the years, the rest of the big teams has lost some quality, actually. I had to intervene at Arsenal because half the first team squad was 30 years or older, and the new players taking over were hardly impressive. So, even with the current beefed up talent generation in FM, the general quality of the leagues is still going down.

These players, and as you suggest hundreds more like them, can only become a problem if you are mentally exaggerating the quality of their talent. While Hafez there is good enough for a big club, the rest are not. They'll do nicely in small/mid-size clubs in one of the four big leagues or in one of the "big" clubs found in smaller leagues, but that is all. I think it would have been a bigger problem if hundreds of these (also from small nations) were not produced, because that would make FM almost unplayable after 6-7 seasons.

Just think about this - after 10 seasons the majority of Championship clubs are comparable to League One quality in the default database, and there's hardly a difference between top-half clubs like Aston Villa and Cardiff battling for promotion to PL. The 7th team regularly ends up 20 points behind 6th place. The likes of Ajax, Porto, Shakhtar, Fenerbahce and Olympiakos fields close to League One quality teams. Haven't you played this far yet? Do that and take a look - maybe you will change your mind...

**Apos** · 09-03-2012 18:20

Originally Posted by Koki

Okay, I will say this once more: I do agree with you and always have that small countries should be able to produce good regens - otherwise it wouldn't be realistic and there wouldn't be much point in scouting. But then again there shouldn't be more good players generated than in reality for each of the small countries. Wouldn't you agree? That is not to say that these nations aren't capable of playing football but currently they aren't capable of creating better footballers because of their limited population, poor youth training or whatever. So I wouldn't care if every regen had a PA of 200. The point is whether there are more good players generated in game than there are in reality for a country.

BTW: I'm off to start my new savegame with a -10% youth rating file I created. If users feel there is something wrong but get turned down by the majority, they should accept it and simply edit the game for their likings and stop whining

For the first paragraph. I agree and disagree at the same time. It's not that countries don't produce good players,it is that they don't get as much attention in real life and talent hunting does not work exactly the same way. In real life more talents come through academies rather than sending a scout on the other side of the world to make a rough guess "oh,I just found a 15 year old who seems to be able to play 4 times as good as he plays now when he grows up". The point is that the logic used is different in each situation. If you get what I mean. We both know that out there right now are potential stars that will never be found.

Which brings us to the second paragraph that I will agree much more. It's a game and you are bound to play it the way you like it. That's why the editor is there,no need to be generalizing something that you don't like as a problem. Just fix it yourself.

**Stu Coleman** · 09-03-2012 18:21

Koki, just to confirm that was with a brand new 12.2 save game? Which leagues were loaded out of interest? Just to confirm we believe inactive nations receiving an 'unnatural boost' to their newgens is now fixed, however it is of course possible that on a per-nation basis some nations may be overrated.

**scott MUFC** · 09-03-2012 18:39

i may have a look at this myself.
but in terms of my blackpool save on 12.1
this is what i got
PA200 DM from belarus
a world class defender from iran AND egypt, but from what i can see
but on my first 12.1 save which is 3 season in.
only 200PA player is brazilian and all the decent newgens are from the usual places so it is a strange one in the first place

i'm guesing it was just luck

**Koki** · 09-03-2012 18:44

Originally Posted by Stu Coleman

Koki, just to confirm that was with a brand new 12.2 save game? Which leagues were loaded out of interest? Just to confirm we believe inactive nations receiving an 'unnatural boost' to their newgens is now fixed, however it is of course possible that on a per-nation basis some nations may be overrated.

The savegame was started yesterday with the 12.2 patch but the 12.0 database. The loaded countries were Germany, England, Spain, Italy, France, Portugal, Russia and Netherlands. Ingame I gave the instructions to retain "players from top clubs" and "current international players" for all continents. Furthermore I have several retain player files that should retain: 1. all clubs with a reputation of 5000 or higher, 2. two clubs from EVERY country in the database (doesn't work for some really small countries though) 3. some local teams. Could they maybe be the answer to the problem?

@ BiggusD: Thank you for the input. I had a long save in 12.1 but I will try to observe your points even more in the future. Maybe I just got the feeling because I, as a human, do find all the good regens but the AI club quality drops nonetheless because the AI managers fail to accumulate real good players at one club and there are rather 1-2 good players at most clubs with the majority of the players being sub-standard. I actually only noticed this "issue" because I was used to FM11 regen quality standards and suddenly I had a very big squad because there were too many players I found in FM12 with that same standard. Maybe my standard for signing players and regarding players as very good is not high enough.
I also agree that the player screenshots don't show world class players but for a national team of e.g. the Czech Republic they will do a decent job and what is even more important that in a few years they will have developed to be better than most of the current players. And this is only the youth intake of 4 years. Anyway, I didn't mean to start a new discussion here, my new game has finished loading...

Have nice weekend y'all!

@ milnerpoint: I just gave your colour scheme a try. Awful

**slich** · 09-03-2012 21:21

Well, some points I want to make reading this thread and the previous thread that was made before the patch

1) 4 years is too short of a sample size to make an assumption. Its just not a large enough size to determine whether or not the Czech Rep will keep producing quality players, or if they just got lucky those years. I imagine if you were really interested in a holiday save to see the inactive nations regen production, you would have to do it for at least a generation of players to see if the team improves or not.

2) Its important that comparisons are made between the countries both with the original and the holidayed database. There have been varied views on the game in terms of talent where people have said that theres too many or too little talent after getting a long time into the game. However, regardless of how much more/less talent there is in the original or 20 years + later database, I think its more important to compare the respective countries state than just the overall talent. Say for example, the Czech team really did get better in terms of quality of the players because they were an inactive nation, but would it really be that big of an issue if an active nation like Spain or Italy had relatively the same increase so that they would still be one of the better teams in the world? Personally, I would prefer there being good talent to go around while still maintaining the proper balance of relative player/nation/league talent but maybe thats just me.

3) As Stu said, it could also be a problem of a particular nation being too strong, as I don't particularly know why Egypt has such a high youth rating (the reason I've heard the most has to do with their large population but I don't know if thats ever been confirmed as true or not). Since we're not really sure how it affects the regen output and what factors contribute to the rating, I do wish there was more information about how the rating works so people could adjust it if they feel the need to

**looknohands** · 10-03-2012 01:08

Just had a quick look at my save game in 2018: Guatemala (inactive) is now 43rd in the world (not a terrible stretch of reality) but they currently have 6 players 24 or under that have a value of $4.4 million or more. El Salvador (inactive) is ranked 32nd, and has a 22y.o. valued at $3.7million, a 20y.o at $3.1, and a 23y.o. striker valued at $17.75 (playing at PSG.) By comparison, the US (I'm coaching in MLS) is now ranked 45th, and only have 4 newgens in the squad, the best of which is 24 and valued at $10.25million. I actually edited that player (I believe his PA was around 140 or 150) and sold him for $4million in 2015. He floundered about for 2 seasons, then had a terrific half season (7.73) before being sold to his current team. All told, in the seven drafts so far for the league (roughly 700 or so players that I've edited) only two have made the US squad currently (the other 2 were youth players that came through MLS squads.) The important thing to note is that I haven't strayed far from the PA values of American players in the DB (the odd 150, one or two 140s and a small handful of 130s each year) but, due to them having to actually work towards achieving their PA, many of them seem to be falling short. By comparison, the newgens from El Salvador and Guatemala already look to be near their peak...

**CurnRaisin** · 10-03-2012 02:15

I noticed this in a network game i have with 2 mates, well unfortunately we all noticed the main teams in question are Algeria and Egypt, Now first Egypt, though the years had some good players, I'm thinking Mido 01/02 CM here. But in this game they are currently 32nd not that unbelievable. But on there first team they have 7 players over £10mil and under the age of 28 with an average age of about 24, I first noticed this after i signed my star striker, 21 for £12mil (who currently has 20 goals in 27 starts for Betis who where expected to come 16th) and thought to my self wow this lad must be tearing it up at international level only to be surprised at that he only has 2 caps then i saw there star studded team of wonderfull players. Then after signing my new first choice CB a 19yr old wonderkid from Algeria and noticeing a few other ones i looked at there national team and was again shocked at there wonderfull talent. Just wondering how does this occour I mean is it the same nations most times, seen ppl say Egypt a few times now.

**Koki** · 10-03-2012 09:12

Originally Posted by slich

1) 4 years is too short of a sample size to make an assumption. Its just not a large enough size to determine whether or not the Czech Rep will keep producing quality players, or if they just got lucky those years. I imagine if you were really interested in a holiday save to see the inactive nations regen production, you would have to do it for at least a generation of players to see if the team improves or not.

Thank you for your thoughts. Of course you are right that 4 years are too short to measure but I started a test save with the same settings I wanted to start my real savegame with. It processed dead slowly and it took me almost a day to do the 4 seasons. So after these 4 seasons I checked the regens and came to the forum to see if other users have the same problem.

Originally Posted by slich

2) Its important that comparisons are made between the countries both with the original and the holidayed database. There have been varied views on the game in terms of talent where people have said that theres too many or too little talent after getting a long time into the game. However, regardless of how much more/less talent there is in the original or 20 years + later database, I think its more important to compare the respective countries state than just the overall talent. Say for example, the Czech team really did get better in terms of quality of the players because they were an inactive nation, but would it really be that big of an issue if an active nation like Spain or Italy had relatively the same increase so that they would still be one of the better teams in the world? Personally, I would prefer there being good talent to go around while still maintaining the proper balance of relative player/nation/league talent but maybe thats just me.

Okay this is maybe really a personal thing, I would hate it to see all nations improve (although it may be even realistic) because I want scouting to be a challenge and I don't want to find very good players at almost every club. But as I sad, this may be a personal thing

Originally Posted by slich

3) As Stu said, it could also be a problem of a particular nation being too strong, as I don't particularly know why Egypt has such a high youth rating (the reason I've heard the most has to do with their large population but I don't know if thats ever been confirmed as true or not). Since we're not really sure how it affects the regen output and what factors contribute to the rating, I do wish there was more information about how the rating works so people could adjust it if they feel the need to

Yes, I believe the Egypt problem is just what you/Stu pointed out. The same for Algeria (see CurnRaisin) and arguably Mexico. We don't know how the youth rating works exactly but for the current output of good players compared between FM and real life the youth ratings of these countries are too high.

@ looknohands: How big is your database? I presume that the US isn't an active country and therefore doesn't produce a lot of regens in your save? It's always hard to fine tune the regen generation and the fewer players there are, the more extreme the regen quality can be.

**BiggusD** · 10-03-2012 11:40

Yes Egypt and Algeria produce quite the selection of leading PL players in my savegame too (large database), but Mexico has been unimpressive so far perhaps because I loaded their league (12.1). Another thing I noticed is the lack of quality players from Uruguay and Holland. They both usually have a very strong international team, but in FM I rarely ever see any good regens from these strong football nations. In my save England is also unimpressive, but I have heard others saying that they are still better than life as they always have been in FM, so maybe I am just unlucky.

I concur that there are too few out-of-the-ordinary players from small nations. Norway never produces anyone better than Decent PL/Leading CH player because that is what they are set to do (and rightly so I'd say), yet, right now their international team have 2-3 Good/Leading PL players and a similar number of young players who can become that good. That is just one example I can think of, so I think that in general, the 150-175 PA talents being produced worldwide every year should be randomized much more among all the nations, while the 175+ talents should be distributed among the traditionally strong football nations to a larger degree.

**The Hand of God** · 10-03-2012 12:17

I wouldn't be too concerned with inactive nations with high youth ratings churning out a handful of good regens. You can always reduce their Youth Ratings in the editor. I assume the main effect of the patch adjustments is preventing world class regens from emerging in weird places too often. In my long-term save, for example, the two best players in the world in 2022 were from Liberia and Georgia.

**jb10billion** · 11-03-2012 02:38

I had noticed on 12.1 that if I had England as the only active nation, they produced few good newgens in comparison to the other exceptional footballing nations. Then, if I had Italy as the only active nation, England produced a lot more good newgens in comparison to when I had them as the only active nation. This had happened on a few different saves. It was easier to pick up good English newgens when I had them as an inactive nation.

So as a hypothetical example, I think I would have found it easier to have a 1st XI of all good English newgen players as Milan with Italy as the only active nation, than I would if I was Arsenal with England as the only active nation.

Basically, whenever i was using England as the active nation i would always struggle to get near to a 1st XI of 170+ English newgens, but whenever i was in a different nation, I would moan about the abundance of 170+ English newgens that had become available. This is just one example of what I have found.

As for the small nations as the OP described, I too had found Egypt (amongst others) to create a number of world class newgens. In five years time i can't see five Egyptian footballers being on the cusp of becoming worldbeaters. It's just not going to happen. In FM (12.1) it was possible.

**jb10billion** · 11-03-2012 02:51

I'm mulling over whether to start a new game in Germany and attempt to get a really good all German 1st XI. I just know there would be approx 10-15 170+ German newgens after 8 seasons, whereas if I start with Spain as the active nation, after 8 seasons there would be approx 25-30 170+ German newgens. This is what I have found previously.

Hopefully this is what SI have said they have tweaked a little to make it more even, whether the nation is active or inactive. Whether the nation is active or inactive, there should be the same potential for the number of wonderkid newgens regardless.

If I'm missing something, a reason why this happened in 12.1, please post your thoughts.

**BiggusD** · 11-03-2012 03:28

Originally Posted by jb10billion

I'm mulling over whether to start a new game in Germany and attempt to get a really good all German 1st XI. I just know there would be approx 10-15 170+ German newgens after 8 seasons, whereas if I start with Spain as the active nation, after 8 seasons there would be approx 25-30 170+ German newgens. This is what I have found previously.

Hopefully this is what SI have said they have tweaked a little to make it more even, whether the nation is active or inactive. Whether the nation is active or inactive, there should be the same potential for the number of wonderkid newgens regardless.

If I'm missing something, a reason why this happened in 12.1, please post your thoughts.

Inactive leagues have fewer players, so in order to maintain the current player quality over time SI would of course have to make sure that a higher number of newgens would have high potential if the nation's league(s) weren't loaded. This increase was unbalanced in FM12.1 (especially with extra players loaded), and is hopefully fixed now.

There is still the issue of Egypt, Algeria, Russia (in my save) and Mexico, Turkey (loaded leagues in my save so no problem) producing an extraordinary amount of quality players compared to historic and current international teams, while nations like Holland and Uruguay drops significantly in quality within a few years in the game (in my saves). No word if this has also been fixed in the new patch. I haven't started a new game yet.

**jb10billion** · 11-03-2012 04:21

Any idea what 'Youth Rating' means in the editor? What would changing the values achieve?

**eastley** · 11-03-2012 04:39

I don't understand what the fuss is about?

Are we complaining that inactive nations are creating to good of a regens? WTF is wrong with that?

Or are we saying that the Regens they do have, are hitting their PA easier?

Is that in comparison to your team??

I don't think there is an issue here at all.

I love scouting the earth to find the best players, where ever they are from.

**jb10billion** · 11-03-2012 04:58

Originally Posted by eastley

I don't understand what the fuss is about?

Some of us are just saying that its unrealistic to have 6 players from Egypt being absolutely world class, or that after 10 seasons theres as many world class players from Algeria as there are from Holland. Totally unrealistic. Others are saying they are happy as it is and see no problem. Swings and roundabouts. Just like every other thread really.

**eastley** · 11-03-2012 05:20

Originally Posted by jb10billion

Some of us are just saying that its unrealistic to have 6 players from Egypt being absolutely world class, or that after 10 seasons theres as many world class players from Algeria as there are from Holland. Totally unrealistic. Others are saying they are happy as it is and see no problem. Swings and roundabouts. Just like every other thread really.

Why say inactive nations then???

I could have Egypt active, does that mean I would produce to many class regens, by your theory yes.

So it is not just inactive nations, it is all nations that normally do not produce that high a volume of class players IN REAL LIFE..

I see your point

Nut it is not a big deal to me, sure I would not mind the likes of Egypt sucking a bit more, while England getting a few better regens etc..

**Koki** · 11-03-2012 09:19

Originally Posted by eastley

Are we complaining that inactive nations are creating to good of a regens? WTF is wrong with that?

No, we are not complaining about inactive nations creating too good regens but about inactive nations creating too many too good regens.

Originally Posted by eastley

Why say inactive nations then???
I could have Egypt active, does that mean I would produce to many class regens, by your theory yes.

There are/were two issues (imo). One thing is that inactive nations sometimes created too many good players to make sure that their national team doesn't totally suck after a few years because only a few regens are created for these countries. There was an issue with this in FM12.1 and SI have looked into this. (and we are now trying to find out how the situation in FM12.2 is perceived by users).

The other thing that some users find unrealistic is that certain countries have a too high youth rating in the editor (especially Algeria and Egypt) which leads to too to many good regens from these countries. So in this case, it wouldn't really matter whether these countries are active or inactive.

**Chef Raekwon** · 11-03-2012 09:41

*Major in-game spoilers*

I think I have found one of the reasons why you'll see so many great regens from mediocre to bad footballing countries. I have been experimenting with a save trying to get great Dutch regens. I tried everything, adjusted all ratings for all Dutch clubs on the stadium screen and nothing really happened.

Then I found out there was a set rating for regens per country. This directly affects the number of quality regens coming out of said country. I'm not sure if it alters the quality per regen though. I'm terribly sorry, but I don't know the exact English word for it, as my editor is Dutch. Anyway, you can find it on a country's "information" screen, right above the parameters for newgens. The max rating is 200. Having a 200 rating set means the number of quality regens in-game is insane.

And it just so happens that, IMO, these set ratings for countries are out of wack.

First, some basic ratings:

Brazil: 185
Argentina: 159
England: 140
Germany: 160
Netherlands: 122
France: 151
Spain: 152
Portugal: 114
Italy: 144
Croatia: 98

Now, let's review the ratings for some random countries. I noticed there was a lot of in-game talent for certain nations, like Mexico, USA and Egypt. I will also list some more obscure nations.

Mexico: 153
USA: 132
Egypt: 138
Democratic Republic of Congo: 101
South Africa: 95
Uruguay: 90
Japan: 114
Senegal: 74
Gabon: 49
Ivory Coast: 105

So how do we rate these numbers? In my opinion, some of these are completely over the top. Or have you seen more good players from the USA than either Portugal or the Netherlands in recent years? Or even historically? Same can be said about Egypt or Mexico. And try to name all Congolese top players. I can certainly name more Uruguayan players. So basically, the ratings for some obscure nations are simply set too high, so that these countries can all produce more top quality players than they would have in reality.

That said, I still do not know the exact function of this rating. Some basic testing has revealed some things to me, but it's possible I misinterpreted my findings or I overlooked some other factors. I would like to hear about other people's findings. Perhaps I will even make a new topic for this to discuss this in-depth.

Thanks for your attention.

**BiggusD** · 11-03-2012 12:14

Originally Posted by Chef Raekwon

*Major in-game spoilers*

I think I have found one of the reasons why you'll see so many great regens from mediocre to bad footballing countries. I have been experimenting with a save trying to get great Dutch regens. I tried everything, adjusted all ratings for all Dutch clubs on the stadium screen and nothing really happened.

Then I found out there was a set rating for regens per country. This directly affects the number of quality regens coming out of said country. I'm not sure if it alters the quality per regen though. I'm terribly sorry, but I don't know the exact English word for it, as my editor is Dutch. Anyway, you can find it on a country's "information" screen, right above the parameters for newgens. The max rating is 200. Having a 200 rating set means the number of quality regens in-game is insane.

And it just so happens that, IMO, these set ratings for countries are out of wack.

First, some basic ratings:

Brazil: 185
Argentina: 159
England: 140
Germany: 160
Netherlands: 122
France: 151
Spain: 152
Portugal: 114
Italy: 144
Croatia: 98

Now, let's review the ratings for some random countries. I noticed there was a lot of in-game talent for certain nations, like Mexico, USA and Egypt. I will also list some more obscure nations.

Mexico: 153
USA: 132
Egypt: 138
Democratic Republic of Congo: 101
South Africa: 95
Uruguay: 90
Japan: 114
Senegal: 74
Gabon: 49
Ivory Coast: 105

So how do we rate these numbers? In my opinion, some of these are completely over the top. Or have you seen more good players from the USA than either Portugal or the Netherlands in recent years? Or even historically? Same can be said about Egypt or Mexico. And try to name all Congolese top players. I can certainly name more Uruguayan players. So basically, the ratings for some obscure nations are simply set too high, so that these countries can all produce more top quality players than they would have in reality.

That said, I still do not know the exact function of this rating. Some basic testing has revealed some things to me, but it's possible I misinterpreted my findings or I overlooked some other factors. I would like to hear about other people's findings. Perhaps I will even make a new topic for this to discuss this in-depth.

Thanks for your attention.

The factor you have overlooked is the training and youth facilities of the clubs in these countries, as well as the personality/hidden attributes templates of the footballing culture which are both essential for development.

**The Hand of God** · 11-03-2012 12:19

Originally Posted by jb10billion

Any idea what 'Youth Rating' means in the editor? What would changing the values achieve?

Basically, this is how youth generation works:

A Nation's Youth Ratings affects the average PA of its regens and the probability of producing higher PA regens
A Club's Youth Recruitment and Reputation determine its ability to compete for those high PA regens in its local region and beyond
A Club's Junior/Youth Coaching Budget determines the average starting CA of its regens (on the whole, however, this doesn't seem to have that much of an effect)
A Club's Youth Facilities and staff signed as "Youth Coaches" determine the rate at which youth players develop

Anyway, having experimented a bit with Youth Rating in active nations, I generally think that they're set too high for most countries. While many people have often pointed to Holland as an example of a "low" rating, I actually think it's about right, as 122 will produce a sustainable number of lower league quality players while producing a handful of potential future internationals each year. Anything above 150, however, will generally produce a potential Messi each year. Even England is set too high when you consider that there are only two 170+ CA English players at the start of the game.

As for countries like Egypt and the US, their Youth Rating is based on population and the assumption that, based purely on probability, these countries must have citizens with incredibly high athletic potential. The problem with this assumption is that, whereas in real life these potential greats are unlikely to ever play any organized football, they all show up as 16 year-old youth candidates in FM12. Theoretically, most of these high PA American and Egyptian regens are supposed to never develop, wasting their potential in obscurity or never really getting into football, but in FM, it's just too easy for both the player and AI to scout every conceivable corner of the world.

So to remedy that, I've massively reduced the Youth Rating for most countries, and I would recommend setting the Youth Rating for truly obscure countries (for example, Tonga and Lesotho) to 5 or 1.

Originally Posted by BiggusD

The factor you have overlooked is the training and youth facilities of the clubs in these countries, as well as the personality/hidden attributes templates of the footballing culture which are both essential for development.

The problem is that these don't have much of an effect. The impact of junior coaching and youth facilities seems to be rather negligible while personality, even with templates, is still so randomized that a country like Egypt, producing multiple PA -9 regens per year, is going to have several ambitious, professional potential wonderkids. Then, of course, big clubs with high youth recruitment are going to have a very good chance of recruiting those high PA regens given that there's no real competition from local academies. Moreover, if these countries are inactive, they have a higher chance of their awesome regens emerging fully developed at the country's top clubs even if they have terrible personalities.

On the whole, regen PA needs to be toned down while average regen CA needs to be increased by amplifying the effect of junior coaching and youth facilities. We need more average players with average personalities and less model professional superstars.

As I said above, while I understand the reasoning behind the current system (high population = more potential but poor youth programs and obscure locations = more wasted potential), it doesn't really work as intended.

**BiggusD** · 11-03-2012 12:37

Originally Posted by The Hand of God

Basically, this is how youth generation works:

A Nation's Youth Ratings affects the average PA of its regens and the probability of producing higher PA regens
A Club's Youth Recruitment and Reputation determine its ability to compete for those high PA regens in its local region and beyond
A Club's Junior/Youth Coaching Budget determines the average starting CA of its regens (on the whole, however, this doesn't seem to have that much of an effect)
A Club's Youth Facilities and staff signed as "Youth Coaches" determine the rate at which youth players develop

Anyway, having experimented a bit with Youth Rating in active nations, I generally think that they're set too high for most countries. While many people have often pointed to Holland as an example of a "low" rating, I actually think it's about right, as 122 will produce a sustainable number of lower league quality players while producing a handful of potential future internationals each year. Anything above 150, however, will generally produce a potential Messi each year. Even England is set too high when you consider that there are only two 170+ CA English players at the start of the game.

As for countries like Egypt and the US, their Youth Rating is based on population and the assumption that, based purely on probability, these countries must have citizens with incredibly high athletic potential. The problem with this assumption is that, whereas in real life these potential greats are unlikely to ever play any organized football, they all show up as 16 year-old youth candidates in FM12. Theoretically, most of these high PA American and Egyptian regens are supposed to never develop, wasting their potential in obscurity or never really getting into football, but in FM, it's just too easy for both the player and AI to scout every conceivable corner of the world.

So to remedy that, I've massively reduced the Youth Rating for most countries, and I would recommend setting the Youth Rating for truly obscure countries (for example, Tonga and Lesotho) to 5 or 1.

The problem is that these don't have much of an effect. The impact of junior coaching and youth facilities seems to be rather negligible while personality, even with templates, is still so randomized that a country like Egypt, producing multiple PA -9 regens per year, is going to have several ambitious, professional potential wonderkids. Then, of course, big clubs with high youth recruitment are going to have a very good chance of recruiting those high PA regens given that there's no real competition from local academies. Moreover, if these countries are inactive, they have a higher chance of their awesome regens emerging fully developed at the country's top clubs even if they have terrible personalities.

On the whole, regen PA needs to be toned down while average regen CA needs to be increased by amplifying the effect of junior coaching and youth facilities. We need more average players with average personalities and less model professional superstars.

As I said above, while I understand the reasoning behind the current system (high population = more potential but poor youth programs and obscure locations = more wasted potential), it doesn't really work as intended.

Yes I agree with this. It is a weakness of the game that 20 years into the future, the top 100 players in the world are all professional nice-guys with 17+ Determination - where's the Bendtners, Tevezes and Zlatans?. It is also a weakness that most players ending up in small and medium-sized clubs are all supertalents who didn't reach their potential.

**Chef Raekwon** · 11-03-2012 15:55

Originally Posted by BiggusD

The factor you have overlooked is the training and youth facilities of the clubs in these countries, as well as the personality/hidden attributes templates of the footballing culture which are both essential for development.

Perhaps, but I think those are not that important. In my experience, unless the personality/hidden attributes are attrocious, they are easily tutorable. Training and youth facilities don't really mean much, because regular playing time are far more important. High training and youth facilities do mean it's harder to poach youngsters, but rarely matter in the long run.

As I see it, it is far too easy to develop youngsters, both for AI and players. Playing many games is enough to reach their full potential. Only a high proneness to injuries can really hamper a players career, and even in that case, players can reach their PA.

And what The Hand of God wrote about youth ratings is spot on. I'm not arguing for an increase in youth rating for some nations - I'd rather see other nation's youth rating toned down. I also understand the reasoning behind the current system, but I'd advise to do one of the following:

1. Maintain the one youth rating statistic but tone it down for some nations
2. Create a new system with different parameters, where the nation's population, infrastructure, quality of regens (CA/PA; average. This would still allow for great newgens in 'strange' nations, like Congo, only less often) etc. are factured in. This would make it more complex and thus harder to manage, but if done right, it would add a new tier of realism to the game. This would mean, in the case of Holland, that population would be 17M, infrastructure would be close to perfect (developed country, great youth trainers, strong FA, etc.), quality of regens would be good etc., whereas a nation like Mexico would have a high population, a worse infrastructure, perhaps slightly worse regens.

At any rate, finally having stumbled upon the youth rating attribute, I can alter everything to my liking.

**The Hand of God** · 12-03-2012 12:21

Originally Posted by Chef Raekwon

As I see it, it is far too easy to develop youngsters, both for AI and players. Playing many games is enough to reach their full potential. Only a high proneness to injuries can really hamper a players career, and even in that case, players can reach their PA.

I think it's far too difficult for the AI to develop youngsters. The personality needs to be just right which is why, as Biggus points out, there is less diversity in terms of personality as the game progresses. I think the solution is that junior coaching and youth facilities need to have a bigger effect so nearly all players, regardless of personality, will be able to reach a significant percentage of their potential if they are trained in a nation like Spain or Holland. On top of that, the Professionalism attribute needs to be defined more specifically as "Work Ethic" while Tevez/Suarez/Balotelli-esque attitude problems should be reflected solely in "Temperament."

**looknohands** · 12-03-2012 16:30

Originally Posted by Chef Raekwon

*Major in-game spoilers*

I think I have found one of the reasons why you'll see so many great regens from mediocre to bad footballing countries. I have been experimenting with a save trying to get great Dutch regens. I tried everything, adjusted all ratings for all Dutch clubs on the stadium screen and nothing really happened.

Then I found out there was a set rating for regens per country. This directly affects the number of quality regens coming out of said country. I'm not sure if it alters the quality per regen though. I'm terribly sorry, but I don't know the exact English word for it, as my editor is Dutch. Anyway, you can find it on a country's "information" screen, right above the parameters for newgens. The max rating is 200. Having a 200 rating set means the number of quality regens in-game is insane.

And it just so happens that, IMO, these set ratings for countries are out of wack.

First, some basic ratings:

Brazil: 185
Argentina: 159
England: 140
Germany: 160
Netherlands: 122
France: 151
Spain: 152
Portugal: 114
Italy: 144
Croatia: 98

Now, let's review the ratings for some random countries. I noticed there was a lot of in-game talent for certain nations, like Mexico, USA and Egypt. I will also list some more obscure nations.

Mexico: 153
USA: 132
Egypt: 138
Democratic Republic of Congo: 101
South Africa: 95
Uruguay: 90
Japan: 114
Senegal: 74
Gabon: 49
Ivory Coast: 105

So how do we rate these numbers? In my opinion, some of these are completely over the top. Or have you seen more good players from the USA than either Portugal or the Netherlands in recent years? Or even historically? Same can be said about Egypt or Mexico. And try to name all Congolese top players. I can certainly name more Uruguayan players. So basically, the ratings for some obscure nations are simply set too high, so that these countries can all produce more top quality players than they would have in reality.

That said, I still do not know the exact function of this rating. Some basic testing has revealed some things to me, but it's possible I misinterpreted my findings or I overlooked some other factors. I would like to hear about other people's findings. Perhaps I will even make a new topic for this to discuss this in-depth.

Thanks for your attention.

I wouldn't worry too much about the US score- due to the setup of the country (with 99% of newgens having to play in the lower divisions before entering the MLS draft) you'll rarely see any high-PA players reach their potential. The only area where this could be a concern is with the newgens created for MLS clubs each year (3 or 4 per team) of which some have been outrageous (thankfully not in my game, though!)

**BS_8** · 12-03-2012 16:40

Don't the nationalities of the staff and managers have an impact on who comes through as youth candidates?

So, say a Bulgarian manager was in charge of Barcelona, then Barcelona would bring through Bulgarian regens every now and then?

**The Hand of God** · 12-03-2012 17:20

Originally Posted by looknohands

I wouldn't worry too much about the US score- due to the setup of the country (with 99% of newgens having to play in the lower divisions before entering the MLS draft) you'll rarely see any high-PA players reach their potential. The only area where this could be a concern is with the newgens created for MLS clubs each year (3 or 4 per team) of which some have been outrageous (thankfully not in my game, though!)

That is only if you have MLS active though. If not, the US gets a nearly English-quality set of regens each year.

**Koki** · 12-03-2012 18:30

Originally Posted by The Hand of God

That is only if you have MLS active though. If not, the US gets a nearly English-quality set of regens each year.

And if there are high PA regens from the US, they will be snapped up by good European clubs who will develop them...

**bleventozturk** · 12-03-2012 19:22

Originally Posted by Koki

And if there are high PA regens from the US, they will be snapped up by good European clubs who will develop them...

And that's why this is probably one of the areas of the game that is hardest to balance. In real life scouts are STILL NOT everywhere, so there are still a lot of hidden talents who can't grow into world class players. But in the game you can scout every corner of the world and find all the gems easily, so the players with high PA will never go unnoticed. That's why I think the youth rating of countries like USA, Mexico, Egypt, Turkey, even Brazil (185 is way too high) should be reduced. Thank god we have the editor, and everybody can modify these numbers to what they think is realistic.

For example I just started a new game, managing a small club in Turkey, and in the editor I did the following modifications:

Brazil: 185 to 175 (I know Brazil is full of talent, but the difference in the original DB between Brazil and competitors like Argentina, Germany, Spain, Italy is huge, the game gets full with Messi-like Brazilian players within 3-4 seasons)
Argentina: 159 to 154
Mexico: 153 to 138
USA: 132 to 122
Egypt: 138 to 118
Turkey: 144 to 134 (I'm from Turkey, I follow Turkish soccer very closely even though I live in US, and every year I see many talented players becoming no-ones, not because of facilities, but because of cultural reasons (talented players are never ambitious, they get spoiled easily by the media and everybody else), so although I agree that considering the high population and love for soccer Turkey should produce better players, which means 144 is a good rating, I decreased it to 134 to reflect the real life better, because in the game the high PA Turkish players can get snapped by European teams and get a much better chance to develop, compared to what happens to them in real life)
Netherlands: 122 to 132
Portugal: 114 to 124
Uruguay: 90 to 100
A lot of mid-strength European countries: +5 points (just to make things slightly more realistic. I just don't see the talent level in countries like Croatia, Serbia, Belgium being in 85-100 region where the number is 144 for Turkey, so I closed the gap a little bit)

**perpetua** · 12-03-2012 22:01

Originally Posted by Chef Raekwon

*Major in-game spoilers*

You can think of this as the potential of each nation based on factors like population of young males, economic development level, player development know-how of the nation etc.

In those nations where the rating is high, teams can produce good players with a relatively lower level of coaching/facilities since there is a large quantity of "raw material".

In those nations where the rating is low, teams have to have a lot of investment in youth to produce good players since "raw material" is scarce and waste can not be tolerated.

Just because this rating is high, doesn't mean the nation should be producing many good players. It just means that clubs in the nation have the potential to produce good players if top quality coaching and facilities were available. Having top quality coaching and facilities is the challenge.

**bleventozturk** · 12-03-2012 22:08

Perpetua, do you mind explaining this a little more?
The default rating for Turkey is 144, and for Holland it is 122. So, if I take two teams, one in Turkey and one in Holland, go ahead and upgrade coaching and facilities to maximum for both teams, should I expect better newgens (higher PA) created in the Turkish team, compared to the Dutch team? Is it simple as that, or are there other factors?

**scott MUFC** · 13-03-2012 01:15

turkey threw out loads on my blackpool save, i bought 2, real madird bought 1, 3 stayed put... that was in ONE intake.
on 4th season there were a couple of very decent egyptians floating around
USA newgens are a pain in the backside to sign in all honesty

**Apos** · 13-03-2012 05:35

I still don't find it a really bad situation. Of course it could only be me,but I personally highly enjoy signing foreigners, developing them and then getting them the nationality of the country I'm in and getting them into the Nat.Team. I find if both enjoyable and also hillarious,especially when I manage to get somone from another continent (and thus of different characteristics from the caucasian theme) into a central europe or scandinavian team.

**The Hand of God** · 13-03-2012 11:42

Originally Posted by perpetua

Just because this rating is high, doesn't mean the nation should be producing many good players. It just means that clubs in the nation have the potential to produce good players if top quality coaching and facilities were available. Having top quality coaching and facilities is the challenge.

Except, again, the effect of junior coaching and youth facilities is minimal, scouting and youth recruitment mean top regens don't need to rely on their own nations' facilities and, even if they stay in their own country, regens from inactive nations are designed to show up far more developed than active nation regens anyway. Consequently, the current system doesn't really work as intended and to get realistic regen results, you need to adjust youth ratings to reflect a nation's historical youth output.

**milnerpoint** · 13-03-2012 11:46

Should you be aiming to reflect a historical youth output with a dynamic system that changes each nations standing year in year out?

**The Hand of God** · 13-03-2012 12:27

Originally Posted by milnerpoint

Should you be aiming to reflect a historical youth output with a dynamic system that changes each nations standing year in year out?

Yes, because any effects dynamic national reputation has on regen production will still have an effect. Adjusting the baseline to reflect real world output just makes it so Egypt and Mexico aren't guaranteed to produce a handful of Xavis and Rooneys in the next few years. Moreover, I personally don't think population should have as much of an effect as SI assumes it does. There's a reason Denmark and Montenegro are competitive at the international level and it reflects the overwhelming importance of culture and a highly organized, egalitarian U16 system with direct access to major population centers. The Democratic Republic of Congo may have a population of 72m, but it's going to take a lot more social and economic change than a few upgrades to junior coaching and youth facilities before it starts producing 16 year-olds at the level it immediately sees in FM12.

In other words, I think the assumptions that SI made regarding youth rating reflect ideal youth output in relation to the entire population, but in FM, we're not dealing with the entire population. We're dealing only with graduates of organized youth academies in major population centers.

Of course, you may prefer to see your game develop differently in accordance with FM's vision of the future, and that's fine. That's why we have the editor.

EDIT: And again, in terms of long-term programming solutions, increasing the impact of junior coaching and youth facilities on both CA and PA would create a better reflection of the impact of a nation's footballing infrastructure. However, once again, under the current system, a high youth rating is essentially a guarantee of immediate, world class talent.

**milnerpoint** · 13-03-2012 12:34

BTW just to be clear i wasnt having a go, just a question

I dont think it works from population as such, but the game has to create players in order to make the game world work. Hopefully they have toned it down a bit so not as many top players come from these nations, but not so much as they eliminate them altogether.

**The Hand of God** · 13-03-2012 12:42

Originally Posted by milnerpoint

BTW just to be clear i wasnt having a go, just a question

Oh, I know.

My writing style often comes off as angry but it's just because I was trained to write in the context of cutthroat arguments. I should probably work on that...

**milnerpoint** · 13-03-2012 12:45

Originally Posted by The Hand of God

Oh, I know.

My writing style often comes off as angry but it's just because I was trained to write in the context of cutthroat arguments. I should probably work on that...

I know the feeling, i seem to rub most up the wrong way on here!! hahaha

**Chris_2010** · 13-03-2012 14:51

has someone a fix for the youth rating file and can upload it?That would be nice.

**perpetua** · 14-03-2012 17:07

Originally Posted by The Hand of God

Except, again, the effect of junior coaching and youth facilities is minimal, scouting and youth recruitment mean top regens don't need to rely on their own nations' facilities and, even if they stay in their own country, regens from inactive nations are designed to show up far more developed than active nation regens anyway. Consequently, the current system doesn't really work as intended and to get realistic regen results, you need to adjust youth ratings to reflect a nation's historical youth output.

The impact of junior coaching and facilities ratings are not really as small as you think. However, are coaching and facilities ratings for clubs at levels that they should be based on history and predicted future? Perhaps not all of them.

For your purposes, altering the nation youth rating is quicker to adjust (in comparison to adjusting individual clubs' coaching/facilities) and gets you what you want immediately. So go for it.

**Bababui** · 15-03-2012 03:14

Originally Posted by The Hand of God

That is only if you have MLS active though. If not, the US gets a nearly English-quality set of regens each year.

And why not? England produces lots of players; not so many good or great players. Look at international results from the last couple of decades. England is vastly overrated.

**The Hand of God** · 15-03-2012 12:18

Originally Posted by Bababui

And why not? England produces lots of players; not so many good or great players. Look at international results from the last couple of decades. England is vastly overrated.

But in terms of international results, England outperforms the US, and with the exception of keepers, they still produce more good or great players than the US. Which US players in the last 10 years are comparable to Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard? Which young US players players are currently comparable to Wilshere, Chamberlain, Sturridge, Phil Jones, Welbeck or even Scott Sinclair? The top US "young" player at the moment (Brek Shea) is already 22 and evidently wasn't able to impress any English sides when he trained at Arsenal all summer. Now, I'm not saying the US doesn't produce any good non-keepers. Donovan and Dempsey are both vastly underrated, IMO, but outside them and Howard, the US national team looks like a League One side.

And even if you argue that England is overrated in-game, then compare US to the Netherlands. Where is the American Cruyff? Arjen Robben? Van Persie?

I'm not saying they can't exist, but it's extremely unlikely that the US is going to be outperforming England and Holland in youth output starting this year which is basically a hard-coded guarantee with the current youth ratings.

And comparing international results does distort the picture somewhat since almost any significantly populated nation can put together a solid starting XI and compete with big teams just as a club like Swansea is sometimes able to earn a result against Man City. That's the beauty of football. Fill out 4 clubs with the best US players and 4 with the best English players and tell me which group you think would fare better long-term in a league format.

**milnerpoint** · 15-03-2012 12:26

Well im now 21 seasons in, the USA have not broken into the top 25 yet, England have sat around 5th for a while.......
I have found about 3 American players (last night was a huge player search night) you would class as good enough to play for the top teams, no more. Its not a hard coded guarantee at all as far as my game has gone.

**perpetua** · 15-03-2012 12:34

Originally Posted by The Hand of God

I'm not saying they can't exist, but it's extremely unlikely that the US is going to be outperforming England and Holland in youth output starting this year which is basically a hard-coded guarantee with the current youth ratings.

There is no such guarantee whatsoever.

**milnerpoint** · 15-03-2012 12:41

Originally Posted by The Hand of God

And comparing international results does distort the picture somewhat since almost any significantly populated nation can put together a solid starting XI and compete with big teams just as a club like Swansea is sometimes able to earn a result against Man City. That's the beauty of football. Fill out 4 clubs with the best US players and 4 with the best English players and tell me which group you think would fare better long-term in a league format.

In my save England hands down, no contest. The USA would not fill one team with enough top players, England could easily produce 2-3 EPL quality teams.

**Bradley21** · 15-03-2012 12:58

In my current save there are quite a few really good American players, one AMR, a DC and an ST if i remember correctly. I signed the AMR because he was that good as well.

Yet in my save with the Whitecaps in the MLS i hardly see any decent regens.

**JackJCFC** · 15-03-2012 13:08

In my game im in the year 2027 and the best player in the world for the last 3 years is American. The US national team is also 7th in the world whereas England are 34th. That said, Holland are ranked 2nd so they must be producing some quality players.

**VonBlade** · 15-03-2012 13:12

Originally Posted by BiggusD

The factor you have overlooked is the training and youth facilities of the clubs in these countries, as well as the personality/hidden attributes templates of the footballing culture which are both essential for development.

Except the AI has all seeing powers and snaps them up almost immediately, thus eliminating the 'bad training' issue.

**CurnRaisin** · 15-03-2012 13:35

I'm not 100% but i think the problem only arise in countries where you don't have the league loaded in. So for people saying I'm in the year 20XX in my game I'm managing in League X and as of yet the national team of said league X is still not in the top 20 teams and have barely any good regen this is the reason why, also even if you are not managing in said league X but you have it loaded its the same thing as far as i know it only happens in unloaded leagues.

But from my own personal experiences there can be an unrealistic amount of good to top quality regens from lower rated footballing countries especially the Africans for me its mainly been Egypt and Algeria. But then again who are we to know the future how can we say that in 2025 Egypt wont have 10+ world class players. It just seems unlikely. giving there current and past team standards.

**Bababui** · 15-03-2012 18:07

Originally Posted by The Hand of God

But in terms of international results, England outperforms the US,

Oh, really? Please provide any evidence of this.

**JackJCFC** · 16-03-2012 09:40

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/15693231

**Koki** · 16-03-2012 10:45

England won against Spain. Spain won against Germany. Germany won against Netherlands. Netherlands won against England. One single result (especially from a friendly) proves absolutely nothing. Although English players may be overrated in the game, their national team is still better than the US-American in reality in my opinion.

**The Hand of God** · 16-03-2012 12:15

Originally Posted by Bababui

Oh, really? Please provide any evidence of this.

OK, final World Cup placements:

1986: England (quarterfinal), United States (knocked out of qualification by Costa Rica)
1990: England (fourth place), United States (last place in group)
1994: England (didn't qualify), United States (third place in group, eliminated in knockout stages)
1998: England (Round of 16), United States (last place in group)
2002: England (quarterfinal), United States (quarterfinal)
2006: England (quarterfinal), United States (last place in group)
2010: England (Round of 16), United States (Round of 16)

So in the last 25 years competing in the same competition, that would be 4-2-1 for England, 1-2-4 for the United States.

**milnerpoint** · 16-03-2012 12:20

Its pointless going over that, we are talking about future here, but it is rather telling that a footballing powerhouse such as England did not fair any better at the last world cup than a nation that holds football 4th or 5th in the list of national sports, which to me could be an indication of things changing in terms of national sides, especially now the states have Klingsman in charge and have not lost since he took over.....

**Bradley21** · 16-03-2012 15:28

US regens in my save have absolutely exploded, there are at least 5 who seem to have a CA of at least 160 (at a guess) with room yet to improve further. Yet in my Vancouver Whitecaps save in 7seasons i haven't seem one player as good as these guys, this inactive league problem needs addressing.

South Africa as well are producing ridiculous amount of top quality players, especially strikers.

**Koki** · 16-03-2012 17:28

Originally Posted by Bradley21

US regens in my save have absolutely exploded, there are at least 5 who seem to have a CA of at least 160 (at a guess) with room yet to improve further. Yet in my Vancouver Whitecaps save in 7seasons i haven't seem one player as good as these guys, this inactive league problem needs addressing.

South Africa as well are producing ridiculous amount of top quality players, especially strikers.

Just asking... did you start your save with 12.2 or did the regens maybe get created while still on 12.1? Because SI said that the issue has been adressed and should be fixed with the latest patch.

**Bradley21** · 16-03-2012 17:40

Well it was started with 12.1 but these players have been produced since the patch so i assumed that this would have stopped happening since.

Unless you need a completely new save for the changes to take effect.

**Apos** · 16-03-2012 19:16

Originally Posted by Bradley21

Well it was started with 12.1 but these players have been produced since the patch so i assumed that this would have stopped happening since.

Unless you need a completely new save for the changes to take effect.

Database and many other change types don't take effect without a new game. Only the ME changes go inside the save.

**SuperMeppen** · 17-03-2012 21:38

@milnerpoint

Klinsmann's lost 4 of his 10 games in charge so far...

**Gee_Simpson** · 19-03-2012 16:48

Have most people lowered the youth ratings or just a few of you?

Does it really have the effect The Hand of God and Chef Raekwon are claiming it to have?

**Gee_Simpson** · 19-03-2012 19:23

Originally Posted by Gee_Simpson

Have most people lowered the youth ratings or just a few of you?

Does it really have the effect The Hand of God and Chef Raekwon are claiming it to have?

I'm thinking of changing it but not sure if I should?

**bleventozturk** · 19-03-2012 20:27

I did the changes I've summarized in post #43, but haven't progressed even 1 season since (started a new game with 12.2 by the way). My plan is to play this save for 4-5 seasons to see if there is something out of whack, and if there is, further modify the youth ratings ans start a new game.

What bothers me is that the game produces different set of newgens depending on whether some leagues are active or not. For example I think USA, Mexico and Turkey's youth ratings are too high (132, 153 and 144, respectively), so I lowered them to 122, 138 and 134, however I only have Turkey as active league among these three, and now I'm thinking, if the game produces too many good newgens only for the inactive leagues, maybe I shouldn't have lowered the rating for Turkey.

I wish the game behaved the same for both cases, that way we could be comfortable about what we are doing.

**Gee_Simpson** · 19-03-2012 23:04

Originally Posted by bleventozturk

I did the changes I've summarized in post #43, but haven't progressed even 1 season since (started a new game with 12.2 by the way). My plan is to play this save for 4-5 seasons to see if there is something out of whack, and if there is, further modify the youth ratings ans start a new game.

What bothers me is that the game produces different set of newgens depending on whether some leagues are active or not. For example I think USA, Mexico and Turkey's youth ratings are too high (132, 153 and 144, respectively), so I lowered them to 122, 138 and 134, however I only have Turkey as active league among these three, and now I'm thinking, if the game produces too many good newgens only for the inactive leagues, maybe I shouldn't have lowered the rating for Turkey.

I wish the game behaved the same for both cases, that way we could be comfortable about what we are doing.

Yeah exactly.

Let me know how things go

**Gee_Simpson** · 20-03-2012 15:55

Bumpity

**The Hand of God** · 27-03-2012 15:18

For reference, this is the current "real" CA output rate based on players in their prime (aged 26 to 30) in the default database:

180-200: 0.6 per year
170-179: 3.8 per year
160-169: 4.6 per year
150-159: 16.2 per year
140-149: 44.6 per year
130-139: 118.8 per year
120-129: 258.4 per year
110-119: 509.6 per year

Obviously, you can't compare regen PA to real life given that unknown failed players with high potential typically aren't given a high PA in the starting database, but it should give you an idea of what a "realistic" CA distribution should look like for fully developed regens of a given age.

Also, for people who like statistics, here is the probability of weak-footedness quality based on current real players in the Premier League:

Very Weak (1-4): 1.8% [17]
Weak (5-8): 38.1% [366]
Reasonable (9-11): 34.1% [328]
Fairly Strong (12-14): 19.9% [191]
Strong (15-17): 5.7% [55]
Very Strong (18-20): 0.4% [4]

**Gee_Simpson** · 28-03-2012 18:57

Originally Posted by The Hand of God

For reference, this is the current "real" CA output rate based on players in their prime (aged 26 to 30) in the default database:

180-200: 0.6 per year
170-179: 3.8 per year
160-169: 4.6 per year
150-159: 16.2 per year
140-149: 44.6 per year
130-139: 118.8 per year
120-129: 258.4 per year
110-119: 509.6 per year

Obviously, you can't compare regen PA to real life given that unknown failed players with high potential typically aren't given a high PA in the starting database, but it should give you an idea of what a "realistic" CA distribution should look like for fully developed regens of a given age.

Also, for people who like statistics, here is the probability of weak-footedness quality based on current real players in the Premier League:

Very Weak (1-4): 1.8% [17]
Weak (5-8): 38.1% [366]
Reasonable (9-11): 34.1% [328]
Fairly Strong (12-14): 19.9% [191]
Strong (15-17): 5.7% [55]
Very Strong (18-20): 0.4% [4]

I'm not sure what you mean? Are these the stats for the current real life players in the game?

**The Hand of God** · 28-03-2012 19:32

Originally Posted by Gee_Simpson

I'm not sure what you mean? Are these the stats for the current real life players in the game?

Yes, that is based on current real players aged 26 to 30.

**Gee_Simpson** · 28-03-2012 20:50

How far have you got in your current game to see what the output for regens are with the default youth ratings?

**jayahr** · 29-03-2012 16:31

Looking at some of the general regen ratings for some countries, I must say that we must not only look at the past or the present, but also at the future.

In the book Soccernomics there was an interesting article on the potential of nations. In that it was suggested that basically the population number, the wealth and the affection to football of a country determine its potential for developing top players.
Assuming that there is at least some truth to that and also taking into account the increasing wealth of some nations or their growing love for the game, one may indeed expect Mexico, USA, Egypt, Turkey or China to produce better players in the future than they did in the past.

I agree however that the Dutch indeed have an astonishing tradition of developing a lot more great players than it should be expected and this isn't properly reflected in the game imho.

**Gee_Simpson** · 29-03-2012 17:05

Originally Posted by jayahr

Looking at some of the general regen ratings for some countries, I must say that we must not only look at the past or the present, but also at the future.

In the book Soccernomics there was an interesting article on the potential of nations. In that it was suggested that basically the population number, the wealth and the affection to football of a country determine its potential for developing top players.
Assuming that there is at least some truth to that and also taking into account the increasing wealth of some nations or their growing love for the game, one may indeed expect Mexico, USA, Egypt, Turkey or China to produce better players in the future than they did in the past.

I agree however that the Dutch indeed have an astonishing tradition of developing a lot more great players than it should be expected and this isn't properly reflected in the game imho.

Really though, how far in the future here are we talking? Most people are likely to only play 10-20 seasons in FM at most so it's safe to assume these youth ratings for some of these nations are unrealistic as I don't see these nations rising to power in football anytime soon, especially China & Egypt. Of course Mexico, Turkey & USA have potential but if you look at their youth ratings in the editor, they are still way too high. I have edited these and almost every other nation's to better reflect the past, present and estimation of near future.

**Gee_Simpson** · 04-04-2012 23:01

Anyone far enough into their new saves to give some updates?

**Flohrinho** · 05-04-2012 14:08

Originally Posted by Gee_Simpson

Anyone far enough into their new saves to give some updates?

I'm just in the phase where there are newgens coming in and checked their PA values with FM Genie Scout. So far it looks much better then it was with patch 12.1. With patch 12.1 I had at least 10 players every season with a PA of over 190 which was great since it allowed me to assemble a world class team almost entirely made of home grown players but it also wasn't that realistic.

So off to the newgens this season which was entirely played during the patch 12.2.1 and 12.2.2 generation. So far I'm at the 03rd of April 2019 the majority newgens have been generated (I think only a few south american countries and south africa are missing atm).

PA 190-200: 1 (0 from inactive nations)
PA 180-189: 1 (0 from inactive nations)
PA 170-179: 18 (1 from inactive nations)

Unfortunately I have no data from before the 12.2 patch to make a real comparison but like I said the amount of players with a pa of over 180 was unbelievable. I have an entire youth/reserve full of players with a pa above 180 waiting to break into my first team and there are a load of great talents at other teams as well.

Now it looks much more realistic. A lot of talents in the 170-179 bracket and only two talents in the 180-200 area. Only one of 21 talents comes from a inactive country which is a Danish lad with a PA of 178.

Fyi active countries are: Argentina, Brazil, England, France, Germany, Italy, Mexico, Netherlands, Portugal, Russia, Spain and Ukraine.

**Gee_Simpson** · 05-04-2012 15:34

Originally Posted by Flohrinho

I'm just in the phase where there are newgens coming in and checked their PA values with FM Genie Scout. So far it looks much better then it was with patch 12.1. With patch 12.1 I had at least 10 players every season with a PA of over 190 which was great since it allowed me to assemble a world class team almost entirely made of home grown players but it also wasn't that realistic.

So off to the newgens this season which was entirely played during the patch 12.2.1 and 12.2.2 generation. So far I'm at the 03rd of April 2019 the majority newgens have been generated (I think only a few south american countries and south africa are missing atm).

PA 190-200: 1 (0 from inactive nations)
PA 180-189: 1 (0 from inactive nations)
PA 170-179: 18 (1 from inactive nations)

Unfortunately I have no data from before the 12.2 patch to make a real comparison but like I said the amount of players with a pa of over 180 was unbelievable. I have an entire youth/reserve full of players with a pa above 180 waiting to break into my first team and there are a load of great talents at other teams as well.

Now it looks much more realistic. A lot of talents in the 170-179 bracket and only two talents in the 180-200 area. Only one of 21 talents comes from a inactive country which is a Danish lad with a PA of 178.

Fyi active countries are: Argentina, Brazil, England, France, Germany, Italy, Mexico, Netherlands, Portugal, Russia, Spain and Ukraine.

Thanks mate

I've edited almost every nation's youth rating to better reflect real life history and present but now after reading your post I think I should just go with the default youth ratings as I don't want my edited ones affecting newgen quality.

What do you think?

**Flohrinho** · 05-04-2012 16:12

Originally Posted by Gee_Simpson

Thanks mate

I've edited almost every nation's youth rating to better reflect real life history and present but now after reading your post I think I should just go with the default youth ratings as I don't want my edited ones affecting newgen quality.

What do you think?

I think atm it looks very realistic. A lot of talents from Brazil in the 170-179 brackets. The guy with the 190+ rating was an Argentine FB which I find quite remarkable because there have been very few good FB newgens in the game so far.

Overall the distribution of talents seams to be mainly in the leagues you chose as active at the start. So yeah atm I think the distribution looks really good.

**Gee_Simpson** · 05-04-2012 17:48

Originally Posted by Flohrinho

I think atm it looks very realistic. A lot of talents from Brazil in the 170-179 brackets. The guy with the 190+ rating was an Argentine FB which I find quite remarkable because there have been very few good FB newgens in the game so far.

Overall the distribution of talents seams to be mainly in the leagues you chose as active at the start. So yeah atm I think the distribution looks really good.

Thanks for that. As I said before I'm worried my changes would negatively affect things so I'm just gonna scrap them and go with the default 12.2 database

**Gee_Simpson** · 07-04-2012 03:30

I'm a very indecisive person as you can tell this by me bumping this thread and asking again

(probably linked to my OCD in some way).

Anyways I thought I'd check to see if this issue has been fixed in 12.2 so I can start with default youth ratings or not. I have edited a lot of them but 1 minute I'm happy with my choice, the next I'm unsure so I hope people can shed some light/give experiences from their current saves. Btw Florinho & Hand of God (through PM) I'm not discarding your findings, just looking for extra input from people

Also, do nations with only players loaded get counted as 'active nations'? I presume not though.

**Flohrinho** · 07-04-2012 08:28

Originally Posted by Gee_Simpson

I'm a very indecisive person as you can tell this by me bumping this thread and asking again

(probably linked to my OCD in some way).

Anyways I thought I'd check to see if this issue has been fixed in 12.2 so I can start with default youth ratings or not. I have edited a lot of them but 1 minute I'm happy with my choice, the next I'm unsure so I hope people can shed some light/give experiences from their current saves. Btw Florinho & Hand of God (through PM) I'm not discarding your findings, just looking for extra input from people

Also, do nations with only players loaded get counted as 'active nations'? I presume not though.

I don't know exactly which attributes you edited but my guess is you edited the nation with the editor? The thing is I believe they are only a starting point and I think there are hard coded parts in the game that influence talent distribution that are beyond your control. One of the things I noticed is that talents seams to appear in waves. One or two years in a row Spain might produce the bet talents but then won't be producing too many great talents for the next 4-5 years but France or Germany or Italy or some other nation will.

That means even if you give Spain the highest rating they would only produce the best talents for some years and not for others which means editing those settings will have a limited effect anyway and I would trust the guys who made the database on the matter that they know what they are doing.

Naturally if you have a certain idea of how talent distribution should look like you are bound to be disappointed because a lot of how this is determined is based on randomness and will probably not be what you had imagined. So you need to decide if you just want to go with the flow and except what the game is offering to you or you might just use FMRTE and edit things yourself make things like you want them to be.

But my advice is to go with the flow and make the best out of the things the game is throwing at you. A bit like in real life I guess.

**markyosullivan** · 07-04-2012 11:43

I don't see what's the big problem here. Think about Ghana, a nation which struggled to qualify for the WC not so long ago, and now have been in the past 2 WCs. Countries change, some of them get a lot better at football (e.g. Ghana).

**Gee_Simpson** · 08-04-2012 02:23

Originally Posted by Flohrinho

I don't know exactly which attributes you edited but my guess is you edited the nation with the editor? The thing is I believe they are only a starting point and I think there are hard coded parts in the game that influence talent distribution that are beyond your control. One of the things I noticed is that talents seams to appear in waves. One or two years in a row Spain might produce the bet talents but then won't be producing too many great talents for the next 4-5 years but France or Germany or Italy or some other nation will.

That means even if you give Spain the highest rating they would only produce the best talents for some years and not for others which means editing those settings will have a limited effect anyway and I would trust the guys who made the database on the matter that they know what they are doing.

Naturally if you have a certain idea of how talent distribution should look like you are bound to be disappointed because a lot of how this is determined is based on randomness and will probably not be what you had imagined. So you need to decide if you just want to go with the flow and except what the game is offering to you or you might just use FMRTE and edit things yourself make things like you want them to be.

But my advice is to go with the flow and make the best out of the things the game is throwing at you. A bit like in real life I guess.

Yeah I edited the nation youth ratings but I think you are right tbh. The only thing that annoys me is the ratings of Algeria, China, DR Congo and Egypt especially, but as you said, it can be pretty random so it's probably best to just leave the ratings as they are. Again as you said, I could even just edit the ratings in FMRTE later on in the save if I feel the newgen output is unrealistic.

I'm hoping as SI have said, the issue for inactive nations has now been fixed so what I can do is just avoid loading any players from the 4 countries I mentioned and they shouldn't produce too many great newgens. I'm not 100% sure what is considered as an 'active nation' though? Is it a loaded playable league or just any players loaded from a nation?

Anyway, thanks for the advice. I'm gonna go with the flow like you said and as the majority of users do so it can't be that much of a problem if the majority are happy.

**Koki** · 08-04-2012 21:02

I'm not sure whether you can edit the youth ratings with FMRTE...

In my current savegame (started with 12.2), I have taken 10% off each country's youth rating and I have further lowered the ratings of Egypt, Algeria and these other countries to a today's 'adequate' rating. I can't really scout as I'm only in the 3rd division and I have attribute masking turned on but from what I can see, the national squads I encountered with my Austria U19 team are not too weak this way. But then again, I don't have too high standards for player attributes and rather enjoy searching for one good player than seeing 10 of them at once...

**Gee_Simpson** · 09-04-2012 15:36

What is considered an 'active nation'? Players loaded from that particular country or only a playable league?

**milnerpoint** · 09-04-2012 15:43

Playable nation.

**Gee_Simpson** · 09-04-2012 15:45

Originally Posted by milnerpoint

Playable nation.

Alright, Cheers

Since you are viewing this thread, how have your experiences been with newgen output from inactive nations in 12.2?

**milnerpoint** · 09-04-2012 15:51

My game is still working its way through the Zambian wonder years lol 2 of the worlds best are from Zambia and they are untouchable players. But saying that i am no longer finding lots of wonder Africans just ones that were created pre patch, i think it will take another 3/4 years before i can really tell. I have only played one save this FM and i dont fancy starting a new one so i cant say how things are from a new game perspective. Although Spain have just produced two of the best players i have seen in a few years so im hoping that continues there have not been enough great Spanish players in my save.

**bleventozturk** · 09-04-2012 15:59

Gee_Simpson, I was very undecided, just like you, before I started my new save. I edited the youth ratings of most countries to my liking, but in very small margins in most cases.

Whether the league are active or not, I think some countries have unrealistically high ratings. Congo, Egypt, Turkey, USA, Brazil to name a few. A lot of European countries have very low ratings. I think this is because of the population, facilites and coaching qualities in these countries.

I will talk about Brazil only, to justify why I decreased the youth rating for Brazil by 10 points. In real life a lot of talent from Brazil don't get developed by European coaches and facilities. In the game however this is not the case. And with Brazil's 185 youth rating in the game, within 5 seasons the teams get clogged with Brazillian world class newgens, because whereas Brazil has 185 for youth rating, the big soccer nations from Europe like Germany, Spain, France, England have their youth ratings at around 145-160. I find it a bit unrealistic and boring, some others may not.

Again, not a drastic change, I just lowered it to 175 (still way higher than European powers) to make it a little more realistic.

Same goes for Mexico, Turkey, etc. I'm from Turkey myself, and although I could enjoy Turkey becoming one of the top 5 nations in Europe, I prefer to keep it more realistic. Turkey's power level should be closer to those of Belgium, Portugal, Greece, Croatia, etc., and not at the same level with England, Spain, France.

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