AI CHEATING?10 man playing better than 11?

[Bebetu]

Was playing with Fulham i faced MU,I scored 3 goals first 10 min on quick counters and i was leading 3-1 when Fabio was sent off min 14.And after that nightmare just begun....really i dont get it 10 man and MU switched to 342(before was their normal 442) and they trashed my 460 formation like playing barcelona vs some amateurs from San Marino.In the end final score 3-4 Ridicoulos!
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9052/aicheater.png

[AcidBurn]

In future do not swear in the title of your thread. I have edited the title by the way.

[BarnsleyFan]

http://www.barnsleyfc.co.uk/page/Mat...~44013,00.html

Bebetu, read that.
60 mins or so gone. Darren moore sent off. BArnsley win 4-1

[Koki]

27.02.2012 Staines Town 4 - 2 Welling (Red Cards: 55, 56 - 80)
26.02.2012 Fokikos 0 - 2 Pierikos (Red Cards: none - 43, 90)
25.02.2012 Kortrijk 2 - 5 Lokeren (Red Card: none - 43)
25.02.2012 Austria Vienna 0 - 1 Kapfenberg (Red Card: none - 45)

I admit that while trying to find counter-examples, many times teams who conceded a red card lost but I wanted to show some recent results to make clear that winning with less men on the pitch is not unheard of. There were some more matches that teams with red cards won but I only listed matches where teams played with one less player for at least 45 minutes.

[Ackter]

I swear I remember a 10 man Man Utd team ripping apart Arsenal at the Emirates a few years ago.

[Bebetu]

I know it can happend in real life too,i watch alot of footbal since many years and i was witness of some matches in real life dont recall wich exactly but i know it happend even in Champions League.Thing is that it happend very very very rarely.On FM it happens just to offen,its not first time,it happend before many many many times..and to say a percentage its maybe 50 % or more,its just no realistic...
And adding to this free kick low percentage,it really cripples lower teams.Ai playing as better formation with high pressing gives alot of fouls and slaughter my strikers but who cares because even if they get 1 man eliminated they play better and i cant get 1 goal even from 100 free kicks.

[Ackter]

In real life, teams alter the way they play against 10 men.

In FM, the manager vary rarely bothers changing.

The difference between attacking 10 and 11 players is massive.

[scott MUFC]

i had a player sent off when 2-0 in a 4-5-1 formation, brought off the striker for the defender i needed to replace and still scored.

other team gets complacent, look in the FA cup game where united faced city, 3-0 at hlaf time, then relaxed and conseded 2 instead of going for the kill

[Bebetu]

Its really unbeliveble especially by playing 460(4240) vs their 342.Goals were just stupid,like an arangement where Ferguson payed 1milion dollars to my players to buy the match.

[tomtuck01]

I swear I remember a 10 man Man Utd team ripping apart Arsenal at the Emirates a few years ago.

We won 4-2 at Highbury, but were already 3-2 up when Mikael Silvestre was red carded for headbutting Freddie Ljunberg.

[Ackter]

But didn't you pretty much outplay them from the red card onwards?

[themadsheep2001]

But didn't you pretty much outplay them from the red card onwards?

Pretty much, it was a no contest once Agent Silvestre got sent off.

[tomtuck01]

But didn't you pretty much outplay them from the red card onwards?

Indeed. And John O'Shea scored the most beautifl chip in the last minite.

[Bebetu]

3-1 Vs AI in 11 man
0-3 vs AI in 10 man
Does this make sence?even in real life dont recall such events especialy after by playing 75+ min in 10 man.They lost width in defense i seted my team to play more on flanks and i could not make 1 CCC or good ocasion to score,and in reverse somehow their wingers without suport of fullbacks were able to create 3 more goals.

[Ackter]

Yes, it makes sense.

What changes did you make when playing against 10 men?

[Bebetu]

I changed the plays to focus on flanks(before was mixed) and i decreased AMCR/AMCL rfd to rarely(before was offen) and incresed AML/AMR rfd to offen(before was rarely).

[Ackter]

So you didn't try to break them out of their formation at all? When a team drops to 10 men, they pretty much contract and set up shop. You need to try and draw them out, make space between them to exploit.

[Bebetu]

i was trying to exploit flanks,because they were playing without fullbacks and with a packed 3 central defenders.

[Ackter]

And you probably would have exploited the flanks well, but there would be a massive wall of players waiting in the box meaning that crosses/passes into the box would be much much more difficult.

[joetheref]

There was the West Ham game the other day, cant remember who they were playing (Blackpool?), they were 2-1 up and had Rob Green sent off just after half time. Went on to win 4-1 with Lansbury, a midfielder, in goal because they didnt have a sub goalie.

[MattyBRFC]

Blackburn beat Fulham with 10 men after Yakubu got sent off very early on

[wwfan]

Many of City's greatest moments have come during FA Cup matches, and this epic come-from-behind win at White Hart Lane was most certainly one of them. After a fiery Spurs scoring run started by Ledley King, City were down 3-0 at the half, a situation only made worse as Joey Barton was sent off, leaving them with only 10 men on the pitch.
Then, several minutes into the second half, Sylvain Distin got a close-range goal to put City in the board, with Paul Bosvelt and Shaun Wright-Phillips following it up. As regulation time wound down, Jonathan Macken put in a header to give City an unlikely—and totally memorable—4-3 win.

This is the greatest 10-man comeback I remember.

@Bebetu: Have the AI teams really come back to beat you when going down to 10 men 50% of the time? Really?

[Kain]

It's the worst one I remember

[Bebetu]

This is the greatest 10-man comeback I remember.

@Bebetu: Have the AI teams really come back to beat you when going down to 10 men 50% of the time? Really?

Not comebacks but they keep same rhytm or they even improve after that giving me hard times when usually should be easier .Its weird but maybe im unlucky.ALso this is offen happening when AI change to weird formations like 342,522,4131 and so on.

[wwfan]

Not comebacks but they keep same rhytm or they even improve after that giving me hard times when usually should be easier .Its weird but maybe im unlucky.

Do you do anything to take advantage of the 10 men. Such as opening wider and deeper and quickening passes to stretch their defence, or targeting and closing down the undermanned section of the pitch?

For me, the opposition losing a man makes the match pretty much open season.

[Bebetu]

Well i try to take advantage but usually i dont change much mostly because i like classic tactics so no shouts ,i focus more on on my players especially on motivation and on their ratings and if i change something i change only rfds and focus passing.But i found very weird how AI play in 10 men,because in real life is normal to maintain your back line as intact but no AI must reinvent Football and instead of playing a 441 a tactic that 99 % of coaches would do after they started as 442 they switch to exotic formation sacrificing 1 defender or 1 midfielder.

[InterWolf]

Often happens in real life too.

[Bebetu]

I offen saw MU ingame in other saves changing 5212 when they struggle.Since when Ferguson is an adept of 3 back line.This would never happend in real life.Ai just "knows" whats the best formation that it suits in ME "to cheat" even in 10 men.I came to conclusion that when AI switch to a different tactic from the one who started its a very bad thing for the user.Really its not normal to change from 4231 to 4131(other situation that i recall think was against Blackburn or Wigan with their 4231 DM that did not ended well for me ) or from 442 to 342(MU this case).342 its funny formation that Ferguson would never use it especialy with 3 central defenders(If he would play with 3 back it would be in Barcelona style with DCL/DCR moving to DL/DR).Ai switched to 342 to exploit ME because he just "knew" this was best way to counter my 460.

[Dr. Hook]

It doesn't cheat. I almost never get scored on by 10 or even 9 man AI. Once in a while it happens, usually from a fast counter, or from a corner, but it's rare. Generally when the 10 man AI starts doing well it's because I was bombing forward trying to force a goal instead of concentrating on pulling them apart and creating space. As for the AI changing formation because it "knows" something is equally wrong. Sometimes it changes because of player substitutions, and who is on the bench, sometimes it is just like you and me, flailing around trying to find something that will work to turn a game around. Nothing magical or "cheaty" going on. If the AI was programmed to cheat, then how could you ever win? Think about it.

[wwfan]

Bebetu, it is an issue you are creating yourself. I'd agree that a team would usually switch to a 1 man up system when going to 10 men, but not when they are 3-1 down and only 15 minutes have gone. They have to try and get back into the match. Shutting up shop isn't exactly going to help them, is it?

That you are using classic tactics and rarely change things speaks for itself. You aren't adapting to the match and are getting punished for not doing so.

[scott MUFC]

only gripe i have is teams going defence/offecive at the blink of an eye at set pieces then changing back again if it doesnt work as soon as the ball is cleared i only ever see that with 10 men.
it is up to you to decide what is best though. if you are winning keep the ball

[vilks]

I've found red cards to be very weird in my current save. I can count on one hand the number of games I've lost after one of my players has been sent off, but I almost always win when I have a player sent off and usually lose or draw if the opposition gets a player sent off. It's gotten to the stage where if a player of mine gets sent off I'm glad because for some bizarre reason, 99% of the time it ends up with me winning.

Incidentally I never, ever take an attacking player off for a defensive player. I always just go to a back 3 instead of 4. Still seems weird though.

[Padders]

Stoke beat Man City in our first year in the Premier League

Delap got sent off at 0-0, James Beattie scored in the last 15 minutes to win the game 1-0

[BiggusD]

Stoke beat Man City in our first year in the Premier League

Delap got sent off at 0-0, James Beattie scored in the last 15 minutes to win the game 1-0

For me the issue isn't that I lose points occasionally when the opponents receive a red card. It is that before the red card they play like drunken amateurs and then, magically, after the red card they play like semi-gods smiting me just for fun. A player having 10-13 in every attribute doesn't suddenly have 30-33 in every attribute just because a teammate was sent off! My team doesn't always become complacent either - at least that is not what it looks like, rather, they succeed in everything they try to do immediately after the red card while my players tend to continue where they left off.

It is difficult to play against a team with one less man because their manager tells them to shut up shop while our players often let themselves "drop a notch" mentally. Also, some teams are so determined and have so good team morale that they actually improve their performances in the name of team spirit and honour. But this is not what happens in FM. In most cases, changing nothing (if you have an attacking tactic) works fine, as you need to be able to score on ultradefensive teams anyway. In some games, however, especially if I am already in the lead, I find that in order to not be completely destroyed I need to change to a defensive tactic to hold them off (I switch to a 5-4-1 tactic and that helps a little), and their player quality, team morale and average Determination level seems to have no influence on their sudden superpowers. This should not happen.

[Padders]

I do understand were you are coming from

It's not something I have noticed in my game, but I will keep a look out for it

[Jops14]

hold on. You played a 4-6-0... a 4-6-0... against 10 men, you played no strikers... and you're surprised you lost? So instead of attacking the spaces, and trying to overpower their defence, you sat back, and soaked up pressure, from man u, for 76 minutes... And to be fair a red card can often act as a catalyst for the rest of the team to up their game, you ever played in a game yourself when someone has been sent off? You'd be surprised how much everyone steps up a notch.

But again, a 4-6-0....

[BiggusD]

hold on. You played a 4-6-0... a 4-6-0... against 10 men, you played no strikers... and you're surprised you lost? So instead of attacking the spaces, and trying to overpower their defence, you sat back, and soaked up pressure, from man u, for 76 minutes... And to be fair a red card can often act as a catalyst for the rest of the team to up their game, you ever played in a game yourself when someone has been sent off? You'd be surprised how much everyone steps up a notch.

But again, a 4-6-0....

Four of those 6 are probably AMRLC's, and that's a tactic that works fine actually.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I have found the best way to deal with this '10 man' issue is to change nothing but my opposition instructions to counter formation changes. (I use positional instructions)

Since doing this I have won almost every match when the opposition goes down to 10 men and have not lost once.

[SRL88]

Spurs -v- Man comes to mind in the FA Cup at White Hart Lane in 2004 I think it was. Its something that happens in football and just because its on a game people dont think its possible in real life.

[bambi holt]

This happened just this weekend, barcelona leading 1-0, piqué sent off, gijon equalise but barca still dominate match and win 3-1! It happens!

[FitzManu]

Oxford had a player sent off against Swindon on saturday after 14 mins
then scored on the 16th & 18th min and ended up winning 2-0 with 10 men against a side that is top of league and hadn't lost in 10 games

[x42bn6]

This happened just this weekend, barcelona leading 1-0, piqué sent off, gijon equalise but barca still dominate match and win 3-1! It happens!

The best team in the world is probably a bad example to pick, though...

[Ackter]

He said Barca, not Real Madrid

[bambi holt]

The best team in the world is probably a bad example to pick, though...

It's not really, the OP is talking about losing to man utd, the champions of England! Not some lowly club like Watford!

[The Wet Jigsaw!]

It's ridiculous how often the computer team manages to win after going down to ten men.

[scott MUFC]

i played 4-5-1 had a player sent off went 4-5-0 and still scored :P
and i was east stirlinghsire against hamiliton :P

[TwinsFan86]

It all boils down to tactics and adapting to the new 10 man shape. I was up 1-0 against Blackburn, 2 footed tackle in the penalty area, I score from the ensuing penalty kick and go on to score 6 more goals against 10 and win 8-0. So no, the AI does not magically get better when they go down to 10 men. The point is finding their weakness and exploit it. If, as a manager, you fail to adapt to a changing situation, you have no one to blame but yourself, and hopefully you try and learn from your mistakes.

[themadsheep2001]

It all boils down to tactics and adapting to the new 10 man shape. I was up 1-0 against Blackburn, 2 footed tackle in the penalty area, I score from the ensuing penalty kick and go on to score 6 more goals against 10 and win 8-0. So no, the AI does not magically get better when they go down to 10 men. The point is finding their weakness and exploit it. If, as a manager, you fail to adapt to a changing situation, you have no one to blame but yourself, and hopefully you try and learn from your mistakes.

Absolutely bang on, sometimes their reshuffle plays into my hand and i don't have to change, sometimes, i have to switch things around

[BiggusD]

It all boils down to tactics and adapting to the new 10 man shape. I was up 1-0 against Blackburn, 2 footed tackle in the penalty area, I score from the ensuing penalty kick and go on to score 6 more goals against 10 and win 8-0. So no, the AI does not magically get better when they go down to 10 men. The point is finding their weakness and exploit it. If, as a manager, you fail to adapt to a changing situation, you have no one to blame but yourself, and hopefully you try and learn from your mistakes.

Well I have had such huge wins due to playing against 10 men too. But I didn't change anything, so chances are whatever changes you did had nothing to do with the big win.

[themadsheep2001]

Well I have had such huge wins due to playing against 10 men too. But I didn't change anything, so chances are whatever changes you did had nothing to do with the big win.

There is no way you could say with certainty in either direction, without knowing how he played, only he can say for sure. But he is right about finding their weakness, if you are exploiting it already, then you might not need to change.

[Ackter]

Well I have had such huge wins due to playing against 10 men too. But I didn't change anything, so chances are whatever changes you did had nothing to do with the big win.

I'd say, based on the amount and types of complaints this forum gets, that most people use tactics which are massively attacking and rely on the same types of chances to score. When a smaller team plays them, or a team goes down to 10 men, these teams will shut up shop. By doing so, they're taking away the chances that the human usually scores from.

What I'd suggest is happening with you is that your tactic makes a variety of different chances which means shutting up shop will not be half as effective against you as it would be against most. Basically, you have a solid all-round tactic that will lead to success in most situations with the right players, whereas most people need everything to be in alignment for their team to fire. You don't need to make changes in most cases.

[wwfan]

I'd say, based on the amount and types of complaints this forum gets, that most people use tactics which are massively attacking and rely on the same types of chances to score. When a smaller team plays them, or a team goes down to 10 men, these teams will shut up shop. By doing so, they're taking away the chances that the human usually scores from.

What I'd suggest is happening with you is that your tactic makes a variety of different chances which means shutting up shop will not be half as effective against you as it would be against most. Basically, you have a solid all-round tactic that will lead to success in most situations with the right players, whereas most people need everything to be in alignment for their team to fire. You don't need to make changes in most cases.

Learned well, you have.

[Padders]

Kept a look out for this last night on my save

Had 2 games were my opponents have a player sent off and I won both games

[Eugene Tyson]

These "AI is cheating" threads always amuse me lol.

I have in, Football Manager and real life, had a team with 10 players and even 9 players, and gone on to win the match. In a real life game we were down to 9 men and losing 2-0. We won 3-2.

And in FM I was down to 10 men on more than 1 occasion and won the match in a dramatic last ditch attack with everything from the kitchen sink to the goal keeper lumped forward.


The funny thing is - if the opposite happened, if the OP had been down to 10 men and came back to win the game the thread would be titled "OMG I'm the greatest manager on the planet".

It's when things go against you that you feel it's unjust and the "ai is cheating" - which is a load of crap.


To the OP - post a thread where something goes right for you in a game... I never see threads around here with "The AI had made all his subs and his player got injured and was down to 10 men, it was amazing" - you will see the exact opposite in the form of "Substitution Bug" - followed by - "Anytime I make 3 subs one of my players gets injured EVERY TIME GRRRR"


Why don't people post about when bad things happen to the AI? Because they don't notice them - or think it's a gift and they are happy about it. When it goes against them then start the waterworks!

[scott MUFC]

well it does in theory, i do see the AI changing formation muliple times go from attacking/defending and back again very quickly, this is more so at 10 men. i think that is impossible for a player to do in the game.
i had 10 men myself and noticed very little change in performance of the team. for me it depends on WHO gets sent off, AI happily go and exploit a hole in defence.

[Eugene Tyson]

Press Pause (space) then do Quick Tactics. Unpause (space).

You don't know when the AI implemented those changes though - it could have implemented them 5 minutes prior in game play.

[knap]

Many formation changes carried out by the AI are very unrealistic, and it is possible that tactical changes are made by the AI at each stoppage in play.

[Bebetu]

AI "reads" game and make changes at every stop possible,while users cannot do this.I found this very unrealistic and i think "real life" footbal is much easier mainly because there are not sliders.This sliders can put in blure even most dedicated players while AI exploits sliders easily.Another thing that bother me is that after ai make tons of changes it never perform worse and in theory should perform worse just by making such a quantity of changes because players in real life are not robots.

[Ackter]

AI makes changes in the same ways you do, but because you're watching a highlight it looks like they're doing it instantly. They're not.

[Gee_Simpson]

10 man Hearts beat St.Mirren 5-2 in January after going 1-2 down.