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Thread: League Reputation - How Flexible is It?

  1. #1
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    At the moment I'm playing a save in Scotland with Dundee United.

    When trying to sign a few players, they don't want to "drop" levels by playing in Scotland, coming from Spain, Italy, Germany or England. I have played saves with teams in leagues other than the main four mentioned in which I've enjoyed considerable sustained European success over a number of seasons, thinking that realisticaly, such success would and should boost the reputation of my team's league.

    I'm well aware of the flexibility of club reputations, but wondered if for example, my own success in domestic and European competitions, would eventually have a bearing on the reputation of my nation's league.

    Is such league reputation flexibility a myth or is is something that is in fact implemented in the game?

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    At the moment I'm playing a save in Scotland with Dundee United.

    When trying to sign a few players, they don't want to "drop" levels by playing in Scotland, coming from Spain, Italy, Germany or England. I have played saves with teams in leagues other than the main four mentioned in which I've enjoyed considerable sustained European success over a number of seasons, thinking that realisticaly, such success would and should boost the reputation of my team's league.

    I'm well aware of the flexibility of club reputations, but wondered if for example, my own success in domestic and European competitions, would eventually have a bearing on the reputation of my nation's league.

    Is such league reputation flexibility a myth or is is something that is in fact implemented in the game?

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    PS - I know playing as relatively low reputation Dundee United influenced player purchases. Even playing with the "top" clubs - Rangers & Celtic - the same thing happens

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    It would have an impact on your co-efficient rating within Europe but I don't think it actually improves the standing of the country within Europe in terms of being able to attract high quality players.

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    Thanks gav, thought it might impact the co-efficient.

    Just wondered that in the hypothetical case of say, all the Scottish clubs entered in European competition, consistently performing, whether or not the reputation of the league might be boosted also.

    I guess it boils down to the reputation of the participating clubs in said league, influencing the "strength" of the league, as a set figure at the start of the game.

    Does anyone else think that having this set as a flexible variable might be a good implementation for future releases?

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    With Dinamo Zagreb in 07 I won the UEFA Cup and reached the semis of the CL a couple of times and in the end I could sign Kerzhakov form Pompey (English Championship at that moment) and in the start I couldn't sign a normal player. Therefor if you win everything in Europe players won't want to go to other clubs in your county but they will to your club

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    I was thinking, its to dio with how well your national team perform.
    But then remembered that Brazil do well most years and there league standard is pretty poor.
    Would be a good AI experiemnt to Add all the Top class players in the world to the 12 teams in the SPL and see if it becomes easier to sign players beacuse they are playiong with some of the best players in the world. Even though the League rep is low.

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    Unfortunately I don't remember where I read it (i.e. no link), but the league reputation does not change, even in the hypothetical situation that Scottish teams start really succeeding in Europe (i.e. four teams to Champions League group stages, etc.).

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    The signing of better players relies on "National league standard" which is not a static variable but changes (Scottish league standard is a static).
    Everytime a club from your league wins a European competition league's rating rises by 1 point , this wll allow you to sign better players .

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When trying to sign a few players, they don't want to "drop" levels by playing in Scotland, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The only way I can think of to do this would be to use the editor and alter the scottish league reputation that way most players will want to play there.

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    No, unfortunately, the league reputation and therefore its standing/stature compared to other leagues is FIXED and unable to change.

    SI have said, it's something they will perhaps think about implementing in future versions, so it becomes variable and doesn't stay static for eternity.

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    In FM2007 I had a 15 year campaign with Hearts and having won the Champions League 5 times running in later years after 6 SPL titles, 5 SC wins, and a couple of League Cup wins and still couldn't keep players from wanting to join big Italian, Spanish, English clubs.

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    I have answer this question like 30 times i will answer it once more for you people to learn how things work

    We have 2 variables
    - National league reputation (changes)in the editor it appears when you search in Nations

    -Competition reputation (static) it appears in the editor when you look for competitions

    Scottish (National) league reputation starts IIRC at 14 , having won 5 European titles it is now 19 , this allows you to sign good players from all over the world . Also other AI Scottish teams will sign better players .

    Competition reputation does not change , this affects your club's reputation, how?
    Having won CL 5 times your reputation risen by at least 2.500 points , if we think that hearts starts at 6.000 points your current level should be around 8.500 (Bayern Munchen starts with 8.500).
    Now because you play in the Scottish competitions that have a value of 14 every end of the season you are losing a crapload of those points (200 or more) even if you won the double .
    I don't know why this happens but the game always keep your club's reputation checked so no matter what you do you will always lose players to Barcelosers , Milan etc .

    Experiment : get FMM trainer and put your club's reputation at 9.000 , then look if anyone wants to move to a bigger club , in my (short , i only play 07 now) games most of the times players are aware that they already play in a big club.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">get FMM trainer and put your club's reputation at 9.000 , then look if anyone wants to move to a bigger club , in my (short , i only play 07 now) games most of the times players are aware that they already play in a big club. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Alas, because club rep is limited by the league standard you'd find that at the end of the first season you'd no longer have a 9000 rep team.

    This is one of the big flaws with FM08, and has been present for years, but not so apparent till this version (read the thread in the bugs section about club reps in France and such). It means that as at the end of each season your rep drops dramatically you can suddenly find half your squad want to move to a 'bigger side' then half their wages and move to the English championship.

    More disgustingly if you do really well in a Summer league, your rep resets at the end of the season, then you have European games two months later you're doomed. You may have won the first leg 3-0, but by the second players you brought in before your rep dropped a whack start to think they've made a mistake, your best players want to move on and other players start to panic the best ones want out.

    I can pretty much promise it won't be fixed in the patch, yet alone FM09 as no matter how much people have complained about this for years it's never been fixed.

    A good fix would be to exclude teams who qualify for Europe from the team rep being limited.

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    A nice fix could be to use dual reputation just like FIFA does , one for domestic leagues and one in Europe.
    Domestic league is not that important , maybe take the league positions , economics, transfers and attendances in account and give a number that recalculates every 2 or 3 years.
    In Europe it can be like 70% your club's coefficients and 30% your nation's coefficients. 70% because in countries like Scotland, Portugal, Austria a couple of clubs stand above the others anyway and it is not like Spain , there are usually chaotic differences between top and mid table teams in all aspects .
    30% because domestic competition does matter .


    About the fmm thing , it is a trainer , you can "exclude" all reputation changes caused by domestic competitions.

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    You have to think about the league standard. Are other teams in the league doing well in Europe or is it just you? If it's just one team doing well, then they may not want to come anyway because there would be only one good team in there, whereas in Spain for example, it's more competitive.

    I'm not saying that league standard shouldn't change because I think 100% that it should but you have to think about all the teams in the league.

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    The thing is that some teams stand far above their league standard .Porto vs Amadora .. we are talking about chaotic differences , Mallorca will never become Porto in reality yet in the game Porto will be insignificant after 4-5 years while Mallorca can be the next Milan just because of League Standard.
    I strongly believe that in the next 5 years Russian league will be number 1 in Europe , because of money and will for success , this can never be reflected inside the game, i think it should.

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    Themistofelis. I'm a little confused on this and would be grateful if you would clear it up for me.

    I was under the impression that structure reputation, (and what I mean by structure is English league structure or Italian league structure etc etc), stayed stuck at a certain level and would not change no matter how succesful member teams from that structure were in Continental competition.

    From reading your posts in this thread it appears that I was wrong, (I think), but I am still confused. Am I correct in assuming that structure reputation, (you called it "National league standard"), is now variable and as such 100 years into a game, the N.Irish leagues could be the dominant force in Europe if the N.Irish clubs were succesful enough?

    I read the bit that mentioned about club reputation being limited by the league standard reputation, but if this is the case then waht is the point in having a "National league standard" reputation as you call it.

    I appreciate that you said you have expleined this a number of times before, but despite me reading an awful lot of the threads in here, I must have missed all of them.

    Sorry.

    I'm not being argumentative or anything, (if that's how my post reads). It's just that I think this is a vital part of the game and until now didn't realise that it was in FM08, (albeit not quite right). I don't ever use the editor so I don't understand what areas can and cannot be changed so apologies if that's what's causing the confusion.

    Thanks in advance.

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    Jimbo
    Before starting note that i made almost all of my tests in 07 , as people stated in many threads 08 is the same (maybe a bit more restrictive in gaining reputation points)

    When starting in N.Ireland with a National Reputation lets say at 8 no player from Portuguese 1st division will ever sign to your club, maybe a "not needed" from Amadora but even those guys are hard to get.
    Winning 7 European cups ( of any kind )will rise your NR to 15 (same as Portuguese) so you will be able to sign players from Portuguese 1st division (together with Italians,Spaniards from low table clubs)
    Also something i have notice is that AI teams of your league will target better players (so if you have any youngsters with PA &lt;130 nobody will ever bid for them ) when NR rises.
    Highest achievable value is 20 , by hitting 20 you will be able to sign players from even Italy in theory.

    League Reputation on the other hand will hammer your club's fame so although you will be able to sign players from Siena ( if Italian league is inactive , because active league will boost their reputation even higher) you will always lose the best ones to Milan .

    I am not a programmer , i have just used the trainer to find out how this thing works , i understand the mentality behind the dual variables .
    Mainly i believe that because the transfer model is wrong and people to save time run only a couple of leagues that get stronger by the pass of time SI wanted to keep big European clubs big after 20 years of play , thats my understanding of why you get hammered and why competition reputation is static.
    So Jimbo no matter what, N.Irish clubs will not be dominant in Europe , they will become a bit more strong after many years but always losing their best players to big European clubs .

    If a Dev or anyone who made tests knows some more i would be glad to learn/exchange experience.

  20. #20
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    Thanks for that .

    Your English is very good but I am having a problem understanding a few bits.

    First of all, I understand that you did your tests with FM07 but that the same will probably apply for FM08.

    You mention that winning 7 European titles would increase my reputation to "whatever", but you don't mention whether it is only the winning of these titles that impacts on the reputation change, or whether getting to a certain stage on a regular basis, (say Qtr-Final or Semi-Final), would also have an impact, (albeit smaller)?

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Also something i have notice is that AI teams of your league will target better players (so if you have any youngsters with PA &lt;130 nobody will ever bid for them ) when NR rises.
    </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Did you mean to say that the AI teams in my league will not target these players? If they won't target them, why won't they target them ?

    I understand that although my club reputation will be rising, it will be held back by the low reputation of the league I am playing in, (I suppose a little like CSKA Moscow, but on a smaller scale).

    Thanks .

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    No only winning European cups rises National League Reputation .Winning games in Europe only gives reputation points to your club .

    I made a simple example with a player named Galitsios in the Greek league , when the NLR is in the set value of 13 there are 3 or more top table clubs that bid for him every single time , if i set the NLR to lets say 17 (from the editor) then the player is not good enough for the standards of the league and mid table clubs will only rarely bid for him (he plays in a mid table club anyway and has a PA of 135).

    Market relies in the db you use, a big db and a NLR that rises will turn domestic players into unemployed ones.If you have a save where you have won European competitions go take a look the quality of the players AI teams signed through the years.
    Those are my findings and i don't claim to be 100% correct , if anyone knows more feel free to share.

    Jimbo you are welcome .

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    I think I get you now.

    I think that it's brilliant that the "structure reputation" is variable, but I think it's a shame that you only benefir from an increased reputation if a club from your nation actually wins a continental competition.

    You could have 3 teams in the Semi-Finals of the Champions League, but none of them win the final and receive no increase in reputation at all.

    I would much prefer it to be on a sliding scale of increase.

    As has been said before, (probably by you), the easiest way for this to happen would be for it to be linked to continental coefficients.

    Seems pretty straight forward to me.

  23. #23
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    Realistically, national league reputations shouldn't move too much based on the performance of a single club anyway. It's doubtful that Porto winning the Champions League had any appreciable impact upon the desirability of playing fixtures against Amadora and Braga ... and indeed the principal outcome of their victory was less successful clubs from the bigger European leagues poaching half their team which tends to be what FM players from the Portuguese and Russian leagues get upset about when it happens in game

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    ^ have to agree with that. Porto won the UEFA Cup, and the Champions League, and all that did was earn their manager a move to Chelsea.

    It's impossible to predict which leagues will be the best in Europe 30 years from now, but i appreciated that FM plays it safe and keeps the big leagues big in the game.

    If you want your league to improve, get multiple clubs to the Champions League, to increase the overall coefficient and make many clubs powerful. As big as Celtic and Rangers are, Scotland can't be taken seriously by the world's elite players until more clubs come to the forefront. The same is true for other leagues with huge talent gaps, like Romania and Croatia.

    England has a talent gap, but not nearly as wide. Scotland is the equivalent of having Tottenham, Newcastle, and then a bunch of clubs that Stockport or even AFC Wimbledon could probably beat!

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    Using the Porto example above, wouldn't that be another reason to tie in in to continental coefficients. Although Porto would have caused a rise by winning 2 Cups, the poor-average performance by the other Portugese clubs would have helped water-down the results and given the Portugese structure a significant, (but not unrealistic) increase in reputation.

    It might be a completely different ball game if Portugese clubs in general went to the semi's on a regular basis as has happened with Spanish, English and Italian clubs over the lastr few years. These nations would then deservedly top the coefficient charts.

    I really think a link to continental coefficients is the way forward with this.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">England has a talent gap, but not nearly as wide. Scotland is the equivalent of having Tottenham, Newcastle, and then a bunch of clubs that Stockport or even AFC Wimbledon could probably beat! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think we all get the point you are making but you pushed it a tad far there .

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    its already been said with porto but what about Ajax when they won the European Cup three years running. It had no effect on their players. They still all ended up leaving to go to the big leagues.

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    Ultimately league reputation is defined by population and the importance of football to the people of that country.

    Which is why Russia almost certainly will become the biggest league in the world, and China and the USA have the potential to be.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snoweel:
    Ultimately league reputation is defined by population and the importance of football to the people of that country.

    Which is why Russia almost certainly will become the biggest league in the world, and China and the USA have the potential to be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Nonsense. Countries like Brasil and Nigeria have huge populations and live and breathe football. They don't have money .

    US will never have a high rep league because of the competition from other sports.

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    You're right, I forgot to add the money factor.

    Though Brazil's league is considered stronger than most in Europe.

    And the MLS will definitely have a huge reputation one day - it could be 30 or even 50 years but it will happen.

    Globalisation is raising the profile of football(soccer) in the US and Australia (my home country). One reason for its surging popularity in the States is that white people can compete with black people in football whereas in most American sports (especially football and basketball) white guys are second-class citizens. Likewise in Australia, our rugby codes are slowly being dominated by Polynesians so numbers of white kids playing is dropping since they just can't compete physically with kids twice their size.

    It's only a matter of time before the MLS is massive, and even the A-League will grow in stature (though slowly since our population is relatively very small).

    And the Chinese league will be massive one day too, though like in the US it could take several decades.

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    I've just found this thread. it seems quite informative.

    Can I ask which editor I need to view to see these reputations in-game to see how they change (considering that I ever manage to actually win a European competition)?

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    I wonder if we could have a reply from someone from SI to explain the workings and changing of standard/reputations of leagues. Is it just the way Themistofelis says. if so: will this change for future versions. i would love to have my LOI grow to have a bigger status in europe.

    More disturbingly: has the summer league reputation crash as noted earlier in this thread been fixed in the 8.02 patch? Will the workings change for FM09?


    So many questions



    Coop: you could, perhaps, use genie scout for that in the past, but for FM08 it doesnt seem to come uit.

    I think FMscout, or FMM or something will do the trick as well.

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    I have produced an MS Excel spreadsheet with a list of league standard ranking and league reputations according to the editor.

    http://files.filefront.com/League+st.../fileinfo.html

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    Very informative, thanks for the work!

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