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Match Engine Is A Complete Joke


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The match engine is a complete joke..even after the deployment of the patch..I have 4 strikers all with composure and finishing all 17 and higher, its what I always search for with a striker, I even have Bojan from Barcelona..my coaches rating for shooting is even the top rating..I get 20+ chances a game and sometimes don't even score..some games I even have 30+ chances, its ridiculous and beyond comprehension..no other version has been like this I am so disappointed.

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The match engine is a complete joke..even after the deployment of the patch..I have 4 strikers all with composure and finishing all 17 and higher, its what I always search for with a striker, I even have Bojan from Barcelona..my coaches rating for shooting is even the top rating..I get 20+ chances a game and sometimes don't even score..some games I even have 30+ chances, its ridiculous and beyond comprehension..no other version has been like this I am so disappointed.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:

Also, consider posting more constructive criticisms in future. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is it not clear what he's saying?

He would prefer the game if top-class strikers weren't constantly missing easy chances.

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icon_rolleyes.gif

to be honest i think its disgraceful how something which is basically the whole point of the game can be so utterly unrealistic and for me just destroys the whole game, its cringeworthy watching your team dominate everyweek and hardly ever score, especially when that **** should have won easily crap pops up every single game, its almost as if some clown at sigames does it on purpose

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by something less annoying:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:

Also, consider posting more constructive criticisms in future. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is it not clear what he's saying?

He would prefer the game if top-class strikers weren't constantly missing easy chances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps you don't understand English? The OP was very clear in his post, but tbh, the quality of this forum is declining rapidly with the likes of the OP et al simply ranting without saying anything CONSTRUCTIVE. To have a look at a detailed critique of the ME, check any of the threads with more than 1 page - there's some excellent debate (pro and against) the ME in there.

Much more constructive than this tripe tbh.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by something less annoying:

Is it not clear what he's saying?

He would prefer the game if top-class strikers weren't constantly missing easy chances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is the OP posting anything we havn't heard before?

SI have kindly provided a search function & as has been said a large match engine thread already exists on the first page. Also I do believe SI have admitted their mistake on the shots issue & will be fixing it, so can people not just wait until 8.02 is released on this one?

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For once i have to agree, after many years of playing CM/FM the actual engine really is a joke. It appears to concoct goals, for example why would a goal keeper go left about 10 feet and tip a ball wide from a free kick on the half way line, the ball never went near the 6yard box was going in a straigh trajectory all the way from the half way line and would have been about 10 feet even not more wide, from the corner a penalty and a goal. This is one example of strange things that this engine appears to concoct. I could go on, but I for one don't want to rant too much...

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I am not sure that any man with "Yippee" in his little forum signature can regard anyone else's posts as Tribe, thanks though, I'll get myself a "quirky" little line that no-one cares about on my signature and head on over to geeksville and spend hours there reading, I have a job and life thanks, my rant was posted because I wanted to display my complete disatisfaction at the product, seems I am not the only one..

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Barside:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by something less annoying:

Is it not clear what he's saying?

He would prefer the game if top-class strikers weren't constantly missing easy chances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is the OP posting anything we havn't heard before?

SI have kindly provided a search function & as has been said a large match engine thread already exists on the first page. Also I do believe SI have admitted their mistake on the shots issue & will be fixing it, so can people not just wait until 8.02 is released on this one? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ohh thats fine then now you have cleared that up, I have had nearly every version of this game since I was a kid, there I was expecting to pay £25 for a complete product and satisfactory match engine as before..its ok I'll wait the months for the patch...twat

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

twat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, abuse is not tolerated on the forums. And secondly, snide comments about the fact that I wrote "yippee" in my location simply show you up for the child you apparently are.

Here are some posts that contain constructive criticisms. Something you appear not to have mastered yet, my little man.

Sorry but I needed to get this off my chest...

Critique of FM08 transfer mechanism - will it ever change?

Detailed experiment of youth development - Troubling results

FIFA Manager 08 vs FM

bugs that make this game unplayable

Si making a blatant attempt to deceive us?

OFFICIAL: Match Engine Wishlist

Patch 8.0.1. Shots to Goal Ratio not fixed - SHOCKING!! SI Please answer - believe to be related to Closing down and Long shots bug (16 pages long!!!)

(disproved on page 2) Finaly proved it, the game engine is bogus

FM match engine = BLATANTLY pre-determined

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

I have a job and life thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMGZ!!! Well, I clearly don't. Just because I'm posting on a forum (the same as you btw), I clearly can't have a job or a life. Thank you so much for saving me from myself. Seriously. I'm now going to trot off and live a fulfilling life. Thank you. icon_rolleyes.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

Ohh thats fine then now you have cleared that up, I have had nearly every version of this game since I was a kid, there I was expecting to pay £25 for a complete product and satisfactory match engine as before..its ok I'll wait the months for the patch...twat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And it's that attitude that causes the negative reaction towards you. Others have started threads regarding the same problem and there have been pleasant debates. It's not the issue you brought up that people have a problem with per se, it is more the way in which you chose to deliver it.

That aside, if you have been playing every version since you were a kid, you should already know the way the SI release/patch cycle works.

I can't remember a release where there wasn't a final patch in February. This isn't the first time and it won't be the last.

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GC - no need for that was there? I have regular access to the Internet, hence why I'm on this board a bit...not that I need to explain myself in all honesty. All I'm asking for is that if people want to criticise the game, they do so intelligently. I enjoy FM, but not blindly. I can see its faults, and there have been interesting debates. If only you could contribute in such a way. icon_frown.gif

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Thanks Poindexter..like I said I haven't got the time to read among forums, I merely wanted to display my disatisfaction at the product, theres no more to say, I won't be buying future products and won't be playing the game again so thats it, seems theres an awful lot of people actually complaining about the match engine though, surprised you got time for all this?, ain't you got comic books to read or maybe a C++ code book ?

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tostao10 & Genuine_quality - Lose the attitude and cut out the abuse, it will not be tolerated in any form on these forums. From what I have read you two seem the only agressors in this thread. If you have nothing constructive to say then i suggest you simply just do not post.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

Thanks Poindexter..like I said I haven't got the time to read among forums, I merely wanted to display my disatisfaction at the product, theres no more to say, I won't be buying future products and won't be playing the game again so thats it, seems theres an awful lot of people actually complaining about the match engine though, surprised you got time for all this?, ain't you got comic books to read or maybe a C++ code book ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I "aint" (sic).

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJdeMarco:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

Ohh thats fine then now you have cleared that up, I have had nearly every version of this game since I was a kid, there I was expecting to pay £25 for a complete product and satisfactory match engine as before..its ok I'll wait the months for the patch...twat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And it's that attitude that causes the negative reaction towards you. Others have started threads regarding the same problem and there have been pleasant debates. It's not the issue you brought up that people have a problem with per se, it is more the way in which you chose to deliver it.

That aside, if you have been playing every version since you were a kid, you should already know the way the SI release/patch cycle works.

I can't remember a release where there wasn't a final patch in February. This isn't the first time and it won't be the last. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats my point..maybe one day, we'll get a complete game without the need for patches, and how can the match engine be so different from previous versions ?

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

thats my point..maybe one day, we'll get a complete game without the need for patches, and how can the match engine be so different from previous versions ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's possible that we'll get a game without patches, but SI's mantra, I believe, is "evolution not revolution", so I think they'll be concentrating on gradual changes, so I think we'll always have patches. I like a new patch, as it often adds a new dimension to a game, but I can certainly see why others don't like them.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

Thanks Poindexter..like I said I haven't got the time to read among forums, I merely wanted to display my disatisfaction at the product, theres no more to say, I won't be buying future products and won't be playing the game again so thats it, seems theres an awful lot of people actually complaining about the match engine though, surprised you got time for all this?, ain't you got comic books to read or maybe a C++ code book ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I "aint" (sic). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brilliant how I placed the Grammar in there as I knew you would be the kind of guy to post on it..cheers you have confirmed my thoughts on you.. :-)

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The people who complain about this makes me wonder if they've actually watched a Football match in real life.

People constantly whining they're not winning 15-0 every match.

It's quite balanced. The ammount of 1 on 1 chances you get is balanced by the lack of the chances put away.

Plus if you actually watched a real game, you would notice that it's quite realistic.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

Brilliant how I placed the Grammar in there as I knew you would be the kind of guy to post on it..cheers you have confirmed my thoughts on you.. :-) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mate, it was a tongue-in-cheek response. Think about me what you like, I couldn't really care less, but lose the chip on your shoulder, please.

Let's cut the b*tching (from both of us) and get back to talking about Football Manager, yeah?

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ok, ill ask a reasonable question

1.can you honestly say to me, that watching your team miss 10 one on ones in every other game is both down to bad tactics, and /or is realistic?

2.why do you think tactics have such a large part to play in games when hsitorically teams that win leagues and cups do it because they have better players?, tactics can seperate teams that are close in natural ability, but thats all

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I am a season ticket holder at Arsenal and have been for 12 years, so believe me I am used to 650 chances being missed.. :-) anyway who is the local Ontario team these days ? do they score lots of goals and make lots of great plays ?, who is on their roster this year ?..

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

Ohh thats fine then now you have cleared that up, I have had nearly every version of this game since I was a kid, there I was expecting to pay £25 for a complete product and satisfactory match engine as before..its ok I'll wait the months for the patch...t*** </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that's your attitude then do you really expect a good response from people.

I offered a reply & because you didn't like the answer all you can do is offer abuse that was not in anyway encouraged by my post.

I have also been an FM player sine the orignal version on the Amiga & whereas I don't think this game is the finished article I accept taht like all other PC games it will need a patch or two before it plays as the develpoers intended.

Now will you kindly take your rotten attitude elsewhere.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

Brilliant how I placed the Grammar in there as I knew you would be the kind of guy to post on it..cheers you have confirmed my thoughts on you.. :-) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mate, it was a tongue-in-cheek response. Think about me what you like, I couldn't really care less, but lose the chip on your shoulder, please.

Let's cut the b*tching (from both of us) and get back to talking about Football Manager, yeah? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "tribe" comment was not necessary, I have been a player and lover of this game for years, I have never used this forum and did not expect the **** I encountered for highlighting a problem that many people appear to be having, I have never felt it necessary to post before as I have always been satisfied with the game and even patches, you do't still buy it after all these years if you don't like the game, my point is I know how to play the game and use tactics, its got to be quite serious when someone like me is actually posting..

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunner:

Like Canadian soccer is even worth paying attention to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

do teams not win 15-0 and score every chance then ?

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a good example in a recent game 3-0 up at half time and coasting, so i say dont get complacent, im only playing the bottom team, and i lose 4-3, now you can babbel on all you want about some random example of this happening in 1956, but totally season , that just defy mathematical probabilites happen all of the time, how a tactic that is so good in the first half, can be so, so , so bad in the second just about sums it all up

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Genuine_quality:

ok, ill ask a reasonable question

1.can you honestly say to me, that watching your team miss 10 one on ones in every other game is both down to bad tactics, and /or is realistic?

2.why do you think tactics have such a large part to play in games when hsitorically teams that win leagues and cups do it because they have better players?, tactics can seperate teams that are close in natural ability, but thats all </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) No, I can't. But I've yet to experience that. To be fair, I think I concentrated too much on simply the goals/shots ratio and didn't take into account the quality of chances. A lot of people are saying that the number of quality chances being missed is too much, so maybe there's something in that, I don't know I haven't seen it myself.

2) Ah, you've unwittingly encroached on one of the oldest debates in football. What makes a winning side: good tactics or good tactics? You seem convinced that it's only to do with better players, but if that's the case then Holland would have won a World Cup (1974 anyone?) and England would have beaten Croatia, etc. The answer is probably it's a little bit of both. But don't be fooled into thinking that football is purely about picking the best 11 players. After all, Steve McClaren picked more or less the same players we'd all have probably picked throughout the campaign, and we all know how well he did.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Genuine_quality:

ok, ill ask a reasonable question

1.can you honestly say to me, that watching your team miss 10 one on ones in every other game is both down to bad tactics, and /or is realistic?

2.why do you think tactics have such a large part to play in games when hsitorically teams that win leagues and cups do it because they have better players?, tactics can seperate teams that are close in natural ability, but thats all </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. I have never experienced this on FM08 as yet so cannot comment on this. I have a lot of chances, I score a few, miss a few but that is football.

2. So you are saying that Scotland and France are close in natural ability even though us Scots are really pretty poor in comparison to France technically. We managed to beat them twice due to tactics from Smith and McLeish and ok with a lot of luck thrown in for good measure. What about Greece winning the Euros not so long ago, they did not have the best technically gifted players, they had tactics, organisation and were just too good tactically.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

The "tribe" comment was not necessary. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've said that twice now. I actually said "tripe". And you weren't called a "twat" and a "****" like I was, so shall we just let it go now? The debate about FM is in danger of turning sensible. icon14.gif

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Quick apology to the mods, I didn't see Andy H's comment before I hit the RP button.

That being said the two posters in question are really not what this site needs.

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holland didnt win the world cup because they had rubbish defenders, croatia probably have better players technically than england or at least some of them are, you are just using the english bias toward our own teams ability like any other nation

i think a better example would be in league format, the teams with the best players always win, and no matter how many permutations you had with slider bars for derby county they would still go down because there players are rubbish

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andy H:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Genuine_quality:

ok, ill ask a reasonable question

1.can you honestly say to me, that watching your team miss 10 one on ones in every other game is both down to bad tactics, and /or is realistic?

2.why do you think tactics have such a large part to play in games when hsitorically teams that win leagues and cups do it because they have better players?, tactics can seperate teams that are close in natural ability, but thats all </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. I have never experienced this on FM08 as yet so cannot comment on this. I have a lot of chances, I score a few, miss a few but that is football.

2. So you are saying that Scotland and France are close in natural ability even though us Scots are really pretty poor in comparison to France technically. We managed to beat them twice due to tactics from Smith and McLeish and ok with a lot of luck thrown in for good measure. What about Greece winning the Euros not so long ago, they did not have the best technically gifted players, they had tactics, organisation and were just too good tactically. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats a fair point but they were exceptionally organised and tactically spot on, plus a very large point was that these teams had also built up a momentum, results on football manager can be random from teams that are bottom with poor players and poor setup, I can accept being tactically outclassed but it just seems so random than from before.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunner:

Like Canadian soccer is even worth paying attention to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

do teams not win 15-0 and score every chance then ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. Usually 1-0 wins from what I recall. They're like the equivilant to the Blue Square in England.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunner:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunner:

Like Canadian soccer is even worth paying attention to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

do teams not win 15-0 and score every chance then ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. Usually 1-0 wins from what I recall. They're like the equivilant to the Blue Square in England. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I better start watching more games down in the blue square then if thats what we are judging by, thanks for your help..

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Genuine_quality:

holland didnt win the world cup because they had rubbish defenders, croatia probably have better players technically than england or at least some of them are, you are just using the english bias toward our own teams ability like any other nation

i think a better example would be in league format, the teams with the best players always win, and no matter how many permutations you had with slider bars for derby county they would still go down because there players are rubbish </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, a better example would be the ones Andy used, such as Greece winning Euro 04, or Scotland beating France, twice.

And I don't agree that Holland had rubbish defenders - their defence was on a par with the rest of the World Cup, and they only conceded one goal iirc before they got to the final. Not too shabby, eh?

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Genuine_quality:

france actually qualified, not scotland, so even though what your saying scotland had better universal tactics, they still lost in the end to the better teams

stop making france out to be a world super power, they were crap in the qualifiers just like us </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats true, Domenech is an awful coach and their only current world class player is Ribery, Henry is breaking down,Thuram is old,Vieira is broken down, Diarra though I rate him at Arsenal is first choice for France and can't even make our first team.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Genuine_quality:

but on champ man it is </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was going to point out that we're playing Football Manager, but thought the better of it in the end. icon_biggrin.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Genuine_quality:

france actually qualified, not scotland, so even though what your saying scotland had better universal tactics, they still lost in the end to the better teams

stop making france out to be a world super power, they were crap in the qualifiers just like us </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said once France were a world super power, I said they were technically superior to Scotland as you said tactics only really separate teams who are close on natural ability when Scotland are no where near as good as France but managed to beat them twice and was pointing out that tactics in those particular matches were the major factor. icon14.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tostao10:

Thats true, Domenech is an awful coach and their only current world class player is Ribery, Henry is breaking down,Thuram is old,Vieira is broken down, Diarra though I rate him at Arsenal is first choice for France and can't even make our first team. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Benzema looks quality as well tbf.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Genuine_quality:

holland didnt win the world cup because they had rubbish defenders, croatia probably have better players technically than england or at least some of them are, you are just using the english bias toward our own teams ability like any other nation

i think a better example would be in league format, the teams with the best players always win, and no matter how many permutations you had with slider bars for derby county they would still go down because there players are rubbish </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, a better example would be the ones Andy used, such as Greece winning Euro 04, or Scotland beating France, twice.

And I don't agree that Holland had rubbish defenders - their defence was on a par with the rest of the World Cup, and they only conceded one goal iirc before they got to the final. Not too shabby, eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Suurbier,Krol and Haan aint too shabby !!

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