Too many good regens from 'average' footballing nations.

**ArsenalFan7** · 02-01-2012 06:03

Does anyone else not get the impression that there are far too many players outside of Italy, France etc with brilliant PA's?

I am mid-way through my 3rd season now so I've had just two youth intakes yet I find some average footballing nations with a ridiculous amount of high PA regens, here are just a few examples:

South Korea/

Regens with PA's of 150-159: 6
Regens with PA's of 160-169: 5
Regens with PA's of 170-179: 1

Libya/

Regens with PA's of 150-159: 2
Regens with PA's of 160-169: 1
Regens with PA's of 170-179: 2

Kenya/

Regens with PA's of 150-159: 1
Regens with PA's of 160-169: 3
Regens with PA's of 170-179: 3

Egypt/

Regens with PA's of 150-159: 28
Regens with PA's of 160-169: 15
Regens with PA's of 170-179: 9
Regens with PA's of 180-189: 0
Regens with PA's of 190-200: 1 (This infuriates me.)

And then here are some figures from some of the better footballing nations:

Spain/

Regens with PA's of 150-159: 14
Regens with PA's of 160-169: 4
Regens with PA's of 170-179: 2
Regens with PA's of 180-189: 1

Germany/

Regens with PA's of 150-159: 4
Regens with PA's of 160-169: 5
Regens with PA's of 170-179: 4

Italy/

Regens with PA's of 150-159: 10
Regens with PA's of 160-169: 4
Regens with PA's of 170-179: 3
Regens with PA's of 180-189: 2

And can anyone please tell me why the USA produce such great regens?

Regens with PA's of 170-186: 6

And they always start with high CA's, what's with that?

And then if we look at it by a few regions:

North Africa/

Regens with PA's of 150-200: 150

Central Europe/

Regens with PA's of 150-200: 161

South America/

Regens with PA's of 150-200: 156

East Asia

Regens with PA's of 150-200: 35

Now you may argue that there are these players scattered all over the world with high potentials but never reach it, yes, whilst true though this is never going to be such an issue in FM due to it being so much easier to hit max CA. And anyway, to suggest Egypt for example produce anywhere near that many players with those sorts of potentials is absurd, Egypt whilst deemed a big African nation are not going to produce that many great players, in recent years I've heard of the likes of Zaki and Mido play in the premiership, these were not superstars by any means. I've had my worries about smaller nations producing great players over big nations since the last patch of FM11 where a stupid amount of superstar Africans started appearing but the problem still persists for me.

I don't suppose anyone who's a good few years in (10-20 years) could prove to me this isn't such an issue by showing me some of the top players in their game? It kind of ruins the idea of a long term save for me if there are going to be so many smaller nations producing great players.

**ArsenalFan7** · 02-01-2012 06:25

And people don't forget this is just two seasons of regens, if Egypt produced that many players with potential like that every two seasons in real life they'd be one of the best nations in the world.

**Things Could Get Messi** · 02-01-2012 07:06

I have no problem with good players being produced any and everywhere. I think George Weah was Libyan? Also you only have to look at some of the African nations including Ivory Coast and Ghana to see that in real life at least that good players are coming from anywhere that football is popular. Egypt getting one of the worlds best future players is no different to Weah coming from where he did surely?
However I do agree that lesser countries should not be producing as many good players as established and richer nations. Quite simply the money isn't there to train 1000's of youngsters in some countries and neither is the training facilities or coaching. Sadly if you dont have countries as playable then the game seems to forget these facts. I have only got to 2016 but a problem on my game is that players join or start at big clubs but never reach their pa because they simply dont get given experience. For example, Jack Robinson is still not a regular for Liverpool even though I think he is now 22. Sadly this has held back his chances of being a top player and giving England a top class full back for years to come.

**ArsenalFan7** · 02-01-2012 07:13

Aye but that's one big, big player in many, many years. And this potential superstar player coming out of an African nation so soon is no shock to me as African regens are far too good.

The simple fact is these nations shouldn't have so many players with such high potential, for example Libya, are five players with the potential to be first team players in the EPL going to appear in the next two years? Unlikely.

Why is it that the nation (Spain) who are destroying at youth level and producing so many incredible players stuck with so few players with potential compared to nations who have no notorious youth etc?

If someone proves Egypt have more youngsters with potential than Spain I'll eat my foot.

**Koki** · 02-01-2012 10:25

I think you should rather look at CA than PA. Why shouldn't Africans have the POTENTIAL to be as good as Europeans? The superiority of European football is a result of more money and better training conditions rather than biological superiority. So if African players have good training conditions (e.g. because they transfer to Europe), why shouldn't they be able to become as good as Europeans?

**SCIAG** · 02-01-2012 10:47

Originally Posted by Koki

I think you should rather look at CA than PA. Why shouldn't Africans have the POTENTIAL to be as good as Europeans? The superiority of European football is a result of more money and better training conditions rather than biological superiority. So if African players have good training conditions (e.g. because they transfer to Europe), why shouldn't they be able to become as good as Europeans?

Because they've already done most of their development and it probably hasn't been as good as that of the players in Europe. Take Drogba, for example- he moved to France when he was 12. Would he have been a world class forward if he hadn't developed as well for the next four years? El Hadji Diouf also moved to Europe as a young teenager. By 16, you can generally place an upper limit on a player's future ability.

**RBKalle** · 02-01-2012 11:02

Weah was Liberian and he was a once-in-a-lifetime talent, more or less the exception that proves the rule...

FM produces an insane and completely unrealistic amount of decent-good newgens for countries that have NEVER been half as "fertile", for reasons I don't quite understand.

Egypt is laughably productive for no apparent reason, and many more countries are vastly overproductive in terms of both quantity and quality (Turkey comes to mind).

The fact most newgens have a low starting CA and/or are inherently flawed (another long-term issue that hasn't been fixed properly) doesn't change the scenario that much because, as we all know, AI managers are unable to take those factors into account, so they'll sign high-PA players anyway.

**RazvanRat** · 02-01-2012 11:18

See this thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthr...-out-of-Brazil

I think some of the disproportion comes from the numbers discussed in that thread needing to be realigned: Holland etc need a boost, Egypt and Mexico in particular need to be cut down. But I think overall there are just too many high_PA regens in the game: I'm 4 seasons into my game and have done a little bit of looking at PA distributions: more than 3/4 of the countries whose leagues I haven't loaded have 7 or more of their top 10 PA players be players generated since I started the game. In the leagues I'm running (30 nations), the imbalance is less tipped in favor of regens.

I don't know whether this is something consistent enough to call a bug: maybe someone with more time than me could run a long-term test and see whether the number of high-PA players coming out of non-loaded nations is Always a lot higher than those countries's PA-distributions in the original db. If so, this could be something to address in the next patch.

The fact that many of them come from outside of the major footballing nations is only a part of the wider problem.

**Bracken** · 02-01-2012 11:52

As I'm currently playing a save in which I've only managed in South Africa and South Korea, I can only say that I wish they produced those players in my save

I do agree there seem to be a high number of regens coming from countries with poor footballing records IRL, I think what needs to change is that these players should only come along once in a generation. For example, in my Chelsea save there were 2 regens from Libya with 180-200 PA, and another 3 with 150-180. That's insane for Libya. I'd much rather see one regen with a 180-200 PA being produced, then nothing close to that for at least 5 or 10 years, as that would be more realistic and make the game more challenging (as it's much more difficult to find one great regen than look at a nation and see a number of great regens). Just a thought anyway.

**Daffius** · 02-01-2012 12:01

It's PA people! How do you know there aren't a dozen kids with Messi's POTENTIAL running around on the streets of Cairo? It is just that these kids never get a chance and never go to Europe, hence only a very few lucky ones make it (if any). In case of Spain the ratio of noticing such a talent is much higher...

BTW Egypt has 82m people contrary to Spains 46m so in game terms they should in fact have a higher chance of getting high PA kids, and I fully reject the notion that any race/nationality should/can have a higher attribute than another race/nation. The possibility of the potential materialising is a completely different story, which is based on facilities, football culture, etc.

Hence I see no issue with this. High-PA players could be anywhere in real life... it's a question of finding them. Now the arguement could be that it should be much harder to scout (find) such players on the streets of Accra than in youth facility in Madrid. I completely agree with that. However the OP is bringing PA value which is only available in the editor and is information that is not available in real life, therefore we cannot judge if it is realistic or not.

**mack4life** · 02-01-2012 12:02

Just because a player has a good PA doesn't mean that they will ever reach it.

The general rule I've found is that no matter how perfect a players hidden attributes are, no matter whether they have 20 determination or not, even if they have the best coaches in the world in the best training facilities in the world, they will not gain more than 100 points on their CA over their career.

So if you find a regen from Egypt who has a CA of 50 and a PA of 190, that doesn't mean he will ever reach that PA. The absolute most he will ever reach is about 150, and a value of about 120/130 is far more likely, so he will become a good but not amazing player.

Also, with those nations, the CA of regens when they enter the game is usually lower than regens in large nations, so while they may have a higher PA in some cases they don't stand a chance of reaching it.

I mean, would you rather have a player with a CA of 40 and a PA of 190, somebody who in theory could become one of the best players ever but in reality will never get close to that PA figure OR a player with a CA of 80 and a PA of 160 who is pretty likely to reach that figure which would make him a top Premiership standard player?

**Some Guy!** · 02-01-2012 12:19

Strange... South Korea and pretty much all of Asia have produced nothing but rubbish 6 years into my current save... I haven't seen a top Australian player in FM since FM09. Apparently SI think that Harry Kewell was a fluke and will never happen again. To restate the point; in some 50+ seasons since FM09 I haven't seen a World Class Australian. Odd...

However, I think this thread is born out of the European complex. For some reason people who have no knowledge of the footballing world outside of Europe like to say that the rest of the world is terrible. Good players come from all over the World and the Premier League is testament to this. More interestingly this is based on what... Two seasons and a couple of countries. As a matter of statistics alone this could be a fluke. I've not seen any of this Korean, Libyan, Kenyan or Egyptian domination you speak of. I have seen a World Class Egyptian player, but that's not exactly implausible. 2 years worth of Regens is not a statistically significant sample and I would suggest simulating ~20 years and then comparing the numbers.

I'd also point out that there is no reason why Korea shouldn't produce World Class players... But hey...

**Random-86** · 02-01-2012 12:26

I'm surprised Norbaek hasn't shown his head in this topic yet. Every now and again, discussions breaks out regarding the PA of the Danish Ajax player Christian Eriksen. I'm not sure what his current PA is right now, but last year he was rated a -8 and later at a set number of 165. Many complained that these ratings were way too low for possibly the best Danish prospect. Many former greats have also commented on Eriksen and all agree that he shows enough promise -- they even compare him to some of the world's current best and how Eriksen is already (much) better at his age than that they were at that age.

Yet Norbaek and Reddiablo (the Danish and Dutch researcher) refused to increase his PA. The number of Danish players that has had a higher CA than 165 (the highest rating I am aware of that Eriksen got -- I'm sure he got something higher now) were rare. Few. Hardly any. This caused them to become sceptical about the skills of Eriksen. Is he really going to become better than just about every other Danish player ever? There have been plenty of very promising players that surely rivalled Eriksen at his age but where are they now? Most never reached that potential and were eventually scaled accordingly.

In other words, it's good to keep in mind how good other players of their nation were. Denmark is no weak nation in football by any means, despite not having a great competition. Eriksen could shine brighter than any other player ever in Denmark if he got a higher PA. But can he really? Apparently the two researchers, at the time, did not think so.

I think this is not necessarily a bad way to rate players from "weaker" countries. However, keeping close to this idea also makes it harder to rate players from stronger (or the strongest) nations, because it's easier to think they become a world class player while the chances of them never reaching the potential is equally as close.

**Bracken** · 02-01-2012 12:30

I have no problem with Korea producing world class players, I have no problem with Libya producing world class players, and I like the dynamic effect that the production of players has on the game, changing the face of football as nations rise and fall, I'd just like the process to be slightly slower. I find it unrealistic that Libya will produce a team full of world beaters within 3 years, but I'd have no problem with them slowly producing better and better regens, with the odd world class player, over the course of 5 or 10 years, becoming an established force in world football, but doing it slowly.

**BiggusD** · 02-01-2012 12:40

Having played 30 seasons of FM11 and 7-8 seasons of FM12 so far, I wonder where those "world beaters" from Africa people speak of are... African nations never dominated the world then, and I cannot see them do that now either. It is curious to notice that everyone who speaks of these world class players use scouting tools...

My advice, stop using scouting tools because evidently they are worthless. At least, when you do, post a screenshot of the 195+ PA "world beaters" rather than just producing irrelevant numbers.

**Bracken** · 02-01-2012 12:44

I didn't notice this in FM11 I must say, only in FM12 so far. I used scouting tools because I'd noticed the trend, I don't use them to find players in the first place, not that it really matters. I also don't see how a load of screenshots would make any difference in this case?

I'm not saying they suddenly dominate world football, but they certainly do change the face of it, which I enjoy. I just think it should be a more gradual process is all. I love the dynamic nature of it, I'd just like it to happen slightly slower. I have no problem with world class players coming from anywhere, I'm just bothered that when they come from strange nations, instead of there being just one or two, there seem to be concentrated groups, as ArsenalFan showed.

Have just found a great looking kid from Uzbekistan that I'm looking forward to developing though.

**Stantoner** · 02-01-2012 12:45

Just look at who reached the quarter finals at WC2010 and you will see african, s american and european nations in there, shows that good players are world wide, also nations around the world are investing in academies, serbia is a small nation but look at how many good players irl from there! Also uruguay! Copa america winners

**Bradley21** · 02-01-2012 12:46

Personally i love that smaller nations can create top players, adds a bit of variety to the gameplay for me. But what i do hate is the ridiculous African bug.

Since FM10 there has been a stupidly high number of top class regens from Africa, and not even the bigger nations like Ivroy Coast Ghana or Cameroon. Instead countries like Tunisia, Chad, Central Africa, Zambia. More often than not these players start with crazy high PA as well and can be bought for <100k since they play in Africa.

I posted about this in FM11 a lot but ig uess nothing really been done about it, it's still a bit out of hand imo.

**Some Guy!** · 02-01-2012 12:50

African bug? I don't think you know what the word "bug" means...

**BiggusD** · 02-01-2012 12:59

Originally Posted by Bracken

I didn't notice this in FM11 I must say, only in FM12 so far. I used scouting tools because I'd noticed the trend, I don't use them to find players in the first place, not that it really matters. I also don't see how a load of screenshots would make any difference in this case?

I'm not saying they suddenly dominate world football, but they certainly do change the face of it, which I enjoy. I just think it should be a more gradual process is all. I love the dynamic nature of it, I'd just like it to happen slightly slower. I have no problem with world class players coming from anywhere, I'm just bothered that when they come from strange nations, instead of there being just one or two, there seem to be concentrated groups, as ArsenalFan showed.

Have just found a great looking kid from Uzbekistan that I'm looking forward to developing though.

Because high PA =/= good player

I can tell within half a second whether or not a player is going to be a continental or world class player. Since I have seen less than a dozen players of that quality from average or small football nations from FM10, 11 and 12, I highly doubt that any of the hundred or so high-PA players this thread is about are anywhere near that good.

**ArsenalFan7** · 02-01-2012 19:07

I shall holiday for around 7 years over the next few days and I shall see just how many of these players hit their PA or come close to it and I'll see which nations prosper.

Since FM10 there has been a stupidly high number of top class regens from Africa, and not even the bigger nations like Ivroy Coast Ghana or Cameroon. Instead countries like Tunisia, Chad, Central Africa, Zambia. More often than not these players start with crazy high PA as well and can be bought for <100k since they play in Africa.

I posted about this in FM11 a lot but ig uess nothing really been done about it, it's still a bit out of hand imo.

This an excellent point, I see far too many Africans from nations like Zambia start with high CA's, get picked up cheap by European nations and go on to become brilliant players, that is quite clearly an issue and same as you I've noticed it for a while, I think I may have even complained about it before?

I'd also point out that there is no reason why Korea shouldn't produce World Class players... But hey...

I agree that was a bit of a stupid example but it seems strange to me seeing six players with what I deem the top player PA come up in 2 years, maybe it was a fluke but these guys have some decent CA's so I'll see if they go on to become top players.

See this thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthr...-out-of-Brazil

I think some of the disproportion comes from the numbers discussed in that thread needing to be realigned: Holland etc need a boost, Egypt and Mexico in particular need to be cut down. But I think overall there are just too many high_PA regens in the game: I'm 4 seasons into my game and have done a little bit of looking at PA distributions: more than 3/4 of the countries whose leagues I haven't loaded have 7 or more of their top 10 PA players be players generated since I started the game. In the leagues I'm running (30 nations), the imbalance is less tipped in favor of regens.

I don't know whether this is something consistent enough to call a bug: maybe someone with more time than me could run a long-term test and see whether the number of high-PA players coming out of non-loaded nations is Always a lot higher than those countries's PA-distributions in the original db. If so, this could be something to address in the next patch.

The fact that many of them come from outside of the major footballing nations is only a part of the wider problem.

I was looking for that but I couldn't find it and I agree, I think there does need to be something done though as some of the top players appearing are from never they should never, ever be. Some of the nations PA's are very confusing.

FM produces an insane and completely unrealistic amount of decent-good newgens for countries that have NEVER been half as "fertile", for reasons I don't quite understand.

Egypt is laughably productive for no apparent reason, and many more countries are vastly overproductive in terms of both quantity and quality (Turkey comes to mind).

The fact most newgens have a low starting CA and/or are inherently flawed (another long-term issue that hasn't been fixed properly) doesn't change the scenario that much because, as we all know, AI managers are unable to take those factors into account, so they'll sign high-PA players anyway.

100% Agree.

**rancer890** · 02-01-2012 19:23

Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7

And can anyone please tell me why the USA produce such great regens?

Regens with PA's of 170-186: 6

And they always start with high CA's, what's with that?

Because in previous FMs newgens through the MLS Superdraft were utter crap. It was pointless to have the draft in the game because if you were lucky in previous FMs, there would be ONE good player. Now they're decent enough that 1st Round Picks don't need to be waived, as well as clubs now produce their own youth player as Academy Apprentice players.

I agree that there are very good players in non-traditional footballing nations though. Sadly, in my games none of them are Canadian..

**poola21** · 02-01-2012 19:32

In FM 11, in my game, with Eredivisie loaded, in 24 years of playing, I only had 2 players with potential > 180 coming from Netherlands
does that seem odd?
Netherlands is well known for raising youngsters

what is more odd is that in FM 12 in 3 seasons I have an attacker with potential 180 also from Libya

**ArsenalFan7** · 02-01-2012 19:40

Originally Posted by rancer890

Because in previous FMs newgens through the MLS Superdraft were utter crap. It was pointless to have the draft in the game because if you were lucky in previous FMs, there would be ONE good player. Now they're decent enough that 1st Round Picks don't need to be waived, as well as clubs now produce their own youth player as Academy Apprentice players.

I agree that there are very good players in non-traditional footballing nations though. Sadly, in my games none of them are Canadian..

Ah, I see, it's very annoying and it's very annoying seeing all these brilliant Americans when it just doesn't happen in real life. It needs to be changed.

Ah, I have 3 Canadians with PA's of over 150

**The Hand of God** · 02-01-2012 19:43

The reason there are so many regens with high potential is to model all the potentially great players from all over the world who never develop because they are never spotted or don't have access to world class training facilities as youngsters or just aren't very ambitious. In the starting database, high PA is only given to players we already know are great or are very likely to be great, but there are undoubtedly thousands of players in the real world who had the potential to be top players but never developed for some reason.

If a massive nation like Egypt or United States had a Brazilian-style footballing culture, they would most certainly be churning out world class players on a regular basis.

Having just done some tweaking of youth output with the official editor, it should also be noted that most "average" footballing nations tend to churn out players with very low ambition ratings due to their personality templates. Players with very low ambition ratings develop at a very, very slow rate (basically, low single digit CA per year), so that is also in place to balance out the high PA.

**ArsenalFan7** · 02-01-2012 19:45

Originally Posted by poola21

In FM 11, in my game, with Eredivisie loaded, in 24 years of playing, I only had 2 players with potential > 180 coming from Netherlands
does that seem odd?
Netherlands is well known for raising youngsters

what is more odd is that in FM 12 in 3 seasons I have an attacker with potential 180 also from Libya

I can't say I had a massive issue with the Dutch regens last year but as you say you're only a few seasons in and we're seeing yet another player from Libya with a world class PA

**ArsenalFan7** · 02-01-2012 19:48

Originally Posted by The Hand of God

The reason there are so many regens with high potential is to model all the potentially great players from all over the world who never develop because they are never spotted or don't have access to world class training facilities as youngsters or just aren't very ambitious. In the starting database, high PA is only given to players we already know are great or are very likely to be great, but there are undoubtedly thousands of players in the real world who had the potential to be top players but never developed for some reason.

If a massive nation like Egypt or United States had a Brazilian-style footballing culture, they would most certainly be churning out world class players on a regular basis.

Whilst true RBKalle's point:

The fact most newgens have a low starting CA and/or are inherently flawed (another long-term issue that hasn't been fixed properly) doesn't change the scenario that much because, as we all know, AI managers are unable to take those factors into account, so they'll sign high-PA players anyway.

And of course whilst African nations are becoming much stronger in football the USA aren't going to go that way, they simply shouldn't be producing solid players year after year.

**The Hand of God** · 02-01-2012 20:14

Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7

The fact most newgens have a low starting CA and/or are inherently flawed (another long-term issue that hasn't been fixed properly) doesn't change the scenario that much because, as we all know, AI managers are unable to take those factors into account, so they'll sign high-PA players anyway.

And in real life, managers often sign cheap, promising foreign talent who end up never developing up to expectation. I'm looking at the Liverpool U18 squad now and see American, Turkish, Icelandic and Australian players who were all signed at one point because someone thought there was a remote possibility that they would eventually be good enough to be a Liverpool player. With regens, having high PA regens who won't develop is the only mechanism for reflecting that beyond just making scouting reports totally unreliable and worthless.

Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7

And of course whilst African nations are becoming much stronger in football the USA aren't going to go that way, they simply shouldn't be producing solid players year after year.

Actually, I expect there to be a dramatic increase in American football talent over the next generation for a variety of reasons:

Youth systems are becoming much more sophisticated and better funded (with many now establishing affiliations with European clubs).

The Central and South American immigrant populations are booming and increasing the profitability/competitiveness of the sport (in fact, the MLS just recently signed a major television contract with one of the major American broadcast networks).

The MLS, while still relatively terrible, is improving and the best young American players are learning to play alongside the likes of Beckham and Thierry Henry.

Most importantly (IMO), with the arrival of digital cable and the ready availability of dedicated football channels, middle and working class American kids with an interest in the sport are watching and learning from European leagues every week, whereas just six years ago, the World Cup was the only thing that all but the wealthiest Americans really knew about the game. Now, young American football fans are growing up with players like Messi as their role models and understand that "soccer" is more than just the "kick and run" game you play before you're old enough for the baseball team.

I'm not saying there's going to be an American Messi anytime soon, but the football subculture in the US is definitely on the rise. It'll likely never eclipse gridiron or basketball, but in a country of 300,000,000, a sizable and growing subculture is going to be producing a lot more top flight "CA 155" players in the mold of Clint Dempsey and Tim Howard.

**speedas** · 02-01-2012 20:20

Since a long time, I want SI develop a system where modify the national & global quality of academies in FM editor at least is possible.

**The Hand of God** · 02-01-2012 20:23

Originally Posted by speedas

Since a long time, I want SI develop a system where modify the national & global quality of academies in FM editor at least is possible.

12.1.1 just added this feature to the editor.

**hehehemann** · 02-01-2012 20:35

Originally Posted by speedas

Since a long time, I want SI develop a system where modify the national & global quality of academies in FM editor at least is possible.

If you look at the link Razvan Rat posted it maybe be of help

here it is again http://community.sigames.com/showthr...-out-of-Brazil

These two threads may be linked, its worth reading the other if you havent, it may explain a few things.

**looknohands** · 02-01-2012 20:57

Originally Posted by rancer890

Because in previous FMs newgens through the MLS Superdraft were utter crap. It was pointless to have the draft in the game because if you were lucky in previous FMs, there would be ONE good player. Now they're decent enough that 1st Round Picks don't need to be waived, as well as clubs now produce their own youth player as Academy Apprentice players.

I agree that there are very good players in non-traditional footballing nations though. Sadly, in my games none of them are Canadian..

Let me follow up on this post, as for the past 3 years or so I've gone through each and every MLS draft list (125-150 players each time) and edited them with FMRTE. Why? So that the players have a decent shot at actually making it in the league.

For example, this is from the most recent class I edited a few days ago:
150 players, ranging in PA from 50s to 180. The 180 was actually a 19y.o. Canadian newgen playing for an amateur squad in the US (due to the fact that FM doesn't include US colleges, which is where the vast majority of drafted players come from.) There may have been one or two players with PAs in the 170 range, same with the 160s. At least 70%, though, had PAs less than 120, which I think is fair. BUT, as many people have pointed out already, these PAs were meaningless, for the most part, as newgen abilities are still so random that many of the higher PA players were worthless (a centerback with 13+ physical ratings for every category...and a 3 for strength. Or a striker with 14 pace and 6 stamina.) Because of this, I go through and readjust the CAs/PAs of each and every player and tweak their attributes. As a result, that 180PA Canadian newgen is now on my squad, but with a PA of 150 (and only after 15 other teams passed on the opportunity to select him.) Will he ever reach that 150 mark, though? I doubt it. If it goes anything like previous versions, he'll spend a year or two on my squad before being sold to a second-tier European squad, where he'll flounder about and hit a wall in his development.

**looknohands** · 02-01-2012 21:05

Originally Posted by ArsenalFan7

Ah, I see, it's very annoying and it's very annoying seeing all these brilliant Americans when it just doesn't happen in real life. It needs to be changed.

Ah, I have 3 Canadians with PA's of over 150

Why does it need to be changed? How many of "these brilliant Americans" in your game are playing for top clubs? How many of them have any shot at reaching their potential? How does America, as a country, perform in your game? Stop focusing on the PA values and look at the actual performance of the players before deciding if this is an actual problem.

**hehehemann** · 02-01-2012 21:38

The actual vaules may be incorrect in the database, thats why it may need to be changed. (see other thread)

**ArsenalFan7** · 02-01-2012 21:42

Originally Posted by looknohands

Why does it need to be changed? How many of "these brilliant Americans" in your game are playing for top clubs? How many of them have any shot at reaching their potential? How does America, as a country, perform in your game? Stop focusing on the PA values and look at the actual performance of the players before deciding if this is an actual problem.

It is a problem.

**ArsenalFan7** · 02-01-2012 21:59

And in real life, managers often sign cheap, promising foreign talent who end up never developing up to expectation. I'm looking at the Liverpool U18 squad now and see American, Turkish, Icelandic and Australian players who were all signed at one point because someone thought there was a remote possibility that they would eventually be good enough to be a Liverpool player. With regens, having high PA regens who won't develop is the only mechanism for reflecting that beyond just making scouting reports totally unreliable and worthless.

Whilst true the problem in FM is that these players don't become totally unreliable and worthless most of the time, most of these players may start with a low CA but if they're bought by a club because of their PA they can be nurtured into a great player with the facilities etc. Development in real life just isn't the same as FM.

Actually, I expect there to be a dramatic increase in American football talent over the next generation for a variety of reasons:

Youth systems are becoming much more sophisticated and better funded (with many now establishing affiliations with European clubs).

The Central and South American immigrant populations are booming and increasing the profitability/competitiveness of the sport (in fact, the MLS just recently signed a major television contract with one of the major American broadcast networks).

The MLS, while still relatively terrible, is improving and the best young American players are learning to play alongside the likes of Beckham and Thierry Henry.

Most importantly (IMO), with the arrival of digital cable and the ready availability of dedicated football channels, middle and working class American kids with an interest in the sport are watching and learning from European leagues every week, whereas just six years ago, the World Cup was the only thing that all but the wealthiest Americans really knew about the game. Now, young American football fans are growing up with players like Messi as their role models and understand that "soccer" is more than just the "kick and run" game you play before you're old enough for the baseball team.

I'm not saying there's going to be an American Messi anytime soon, but the football subculture in the US is definitely on the rise. It'll likely never eclipse gridiron or basketball, but in a country of 300,000,000, a sizable and growing subculture is going to be producing a lot more top flight "CA 155" players in the mold of Clint Dempsey and Tim Howard.

Yes I agree with this but I don't think that anyone can deny football is never going to be more popular than Basketball, NFL and whatever, I'm seeing superstars arise out of the USA and quickly though, this shouldn't happen.

**looknohands** · 03-01-2012 01:11

I wouldn't condisder these guys to be superstars, judging by the teams they're playing for. However, I'm curious to know more about the history of these players. The first one, in particular, has a rather high CA for his age compared to what I've seen from the draft newgens. Was he an academy player?

**RBKalle** · 03-01-2012 01:13

BTW I really doubt US soccer will get better as long as they'll be keeping their NFL-like structure...

College soccer, drafts, convoluted roster/contract rules, semi-rigid league system, franchises instead of clubs... USA may as well have 2 billions people available and they'd still fail to become a football powerhouse.

And speaking of quantity =/= quality, it shouldn't matter how big the population of a country is... talent is not a matter of "1 every N", the Chinese sport-factory system doesn't apply to football because class isn't something you can learn by iteration... Therefore there's no correlation between a country population and the chance of generating the next Messi.

Some countries have a bigger tradition, better facilities and the right "environment" to churn out awesome football players every single decade. Some batches will be better, some will disappoint, but all in all the landscape of the Top football scene hasn't changed much since the mid-50s, hasn't it?

**scott MUFC** · 03-01-2012 01:16

try looking at scottish division 3 after 2 years, quite a few of those teams have 15 year old regens in the first team.

and do we need to give a point.. George best? northen ireland

**ArsenalFan7** · 03-01-2012 01:33

Originally Posted by looknohands

I wouldn't condisder these guys to be superstars, judging by the teams they're playing for. However, I'm curious to know more about the history of these players. The first one, in particular, has a rather high CA for his age compared to what I've seen from the draft newgens. Was he an academy player?

Clitheroe started FC Dallas who have an academy.
Lancos started at New York who have an academy.
Palacios started at CD Chivas USA who have an academy.

Either way the USA is producing too many good players. Spain have 3 regens with PA's above 170, the USA have 11, this is a complete joke.

Can you imagine the USA producing players with that much potential? I think they'd be the one's winning the world cup.

**ArsenalFan7** · 03-01-2012 01:40

Originally Posted by RBKalle

And speaking of quantity =/= quality, it shouldn't matter how big the population of a country is... talent is not a matter of "1 every N", the Chinese sport-factory system doesn't apply to football because class isn't something you can learn by iteration... Therefore there's no correlation between a country population and the chance of generating the next Messi.

Some countries have a bigger tradition, better facilities and the right "environment" to churn out awesome football players every single decade. Some batches will be better, some will disappoint, but all in all the landscape of the Top football scene hasn't changed much since the mid-50s, hasn't it?

Words of wisdom.

**BiggusD** · 03-01-2012 03:45

Those three players aren't anywhere near world class. They aren't better than the current US internationals, but the two first are young enough to maybe take USA to a new level internationally if they continue to develop.

They're Premier League/La Liga/Serie A/Bundesliga material, but not for the top teams. Compare them to the players already in existence now and you will see that if anything the regens should be even better...

**ArsenalFan7** · 03-01-2012 03:54

Eh? Those 3 will 100% hit max PA and Clitheroe has a PA around 140 which should be rather normal for his age as he will hit PA in 2 or 3 years, do you really expect a 21 y/o to be approaching peak?

And those three could walk into the USA team, in fact, Clitheroe has and the others will follow shortly. These are better than US internationals, there simply isn't any youngsters from the US out there in real life of this quality apart from maybe Chandler if we're going by the game.

**Some Guy!** · 03-01-2012 04:18

Originally Posted by RBKalle

BTW I really doubt US soccer will get better as long as they'll be keeping their NFL-like structure...

College soccer, drafts, convoluted roster/contract rules, semi-rigid league system, franchises instead of clubs... USA may as well have 2 billions people available and they'd still fail to become a football powerhouse.

And speaking of quantity =/= quality, it shouldn't matter how big the population of a country is... talent is not a matter of "1 every N", the Chinese sport-factory system doesn't apply to football because class isn't something you can learn by iteration... Therefore there's no correlation between a country population and the chance of generating the next Messi.

Some countries have a bigger tradition, better facilities and the right "environment" to churn out awesome football players every single decade. Some batches will be better, some will disappoint, but all in all the landscape of the Top football scene hasn't changed much since the mid-50s, hasn't it?

Hungary...

**TGP** · 03-01-2012 04:55

You posted a screen shot from genie scout and didnt sort by best potential rating? Change the sort and look at how highly rated those players are. Try searching new gens only and see how many of them show up in the top 50. in my game the US has 4 players projected potential rating above 75 and 3 of them are keeprs. 3 are also dual nationals. the potential rating alone is not enough for people to be making decisions. the player templates and the distribution of the skills matter. looking at those screen shots the LB is the best of those players. The others are both flawed in some areas.

The idea that the US will not improve in the long run is ridiculous. There are more Americans than ever playing in europe and they are playing at bigger teams. several american youth internationals moved abroad this summer i.e. marc pelosi at liverpool. The argument that mls will prevent talented americans from developing makes no sense. the league structure has nothing to do with identifying young kids with talent. the drafts are becoming less relevant as the academy systems develop.

for me the game has done much better with american newgens than in the past. it used to be that the USMNT became horrible as the database players left. now at least it remains about the same. just because one game the US creates a truly great player doesnt mean it happens all the time everywhere. one of my games the two best midfielders in the world were australian. look at the screen shot and see that the best players come from traditional powers.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

**ArsenalFan7** · 03-01-2012 05:10

This is only a small part of a bigger thing - regens are too good as well.

Just look at this screenshot and it's quite clear it's ridiculous. There an Estonian in there ffs, an ESTONIAN. I'd be fine with this if it was dynamic and happened gradually but it's not the case.

Mexico etc clearly have way too high PA's for their youth as a nation and this needs to be lowered.

Where are all the brilliant Spaniards, French etc in this? Nowhere. The horrid thing is the French and Spanish quite literally nowhere, it's not even an exaggeration, the Spanish who currently have one the best national sides ever to have existed and currently have a backup side capable of beating major nations no longer produce the best, wonderful.

**Nocuous** · 03-01-2012 05:37

I agree that this is an issue that should be addressed, but I'm amazed at the rage coming from some people. I suppose the fact that I rarely manage International teams means I'm less effected by this. If I see the US win the World Cup on one of my games, I chortle and think to myself 'only in FM' and then continue enjoying my game.

And speaking of quantity =/= quality, it shouldn't matter how big the population of a country is... talent is not a matter of "1 every N", the Chinese sport-factory system doesn't apply to football because class isn't something you can learn by iteration... Therefore there's no correlation between a country population and the chance of generating the next Messi.

I agree with you to an extent, but to say there's no correlation is false. I think you can certainly say that the fall from grace of countries like Hungary, Austria, and Uruguay, who at various stages have really been giants of World Football, is partly due to the countries small populations, which are all under 10 million (~3M in the case of Uruguay). I'm not saying the same will happen to the Netherlands and Portugal (roughly 16M and 10M population respectively), however to say population is a non-factor is incorrect. In the cases of both the Netherlands and Portugal, I think it shows in their national teams at times, as while they do produce World stars like Ronaldo, Figo, Sneijder, Seedorf, ect. often their national teams will lack depth, like Portugal famous like of a clinical striker post Pauleta, which meant they had to rely on Gomes many years past his peak, and Postiga who has always been distictly average. Portugal have always struggled for keepers too since Baia. Then in the case of the Dutch, average defenders like Bouma, Ooijer, Braafheid, ect. have often gotten consistent playing time.

I know this post looks very 'nit picky', as I do agree with your statement that 'class isn't something learnt by iteration', but I think there is something to be said about population, and I always find if funny when people complain the Brazil produce too much talent on FM. Have people ever looked at some of the huge players that never get/or got a look in for the Brazilian national team? Deco is one of the best playmakers of his generation. But he was always blocked off by guys like Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Kaka and Alex (although he arguably shouldn't have been blocked by him).

While I disagree with people complaining about Brazil's talent, I do see where their coming from in terms of what you see from the likes of Mexico, USA, and Egypt, which is presumably down to the big population of said nations.

**ArsenalFan7** · 03-01-2012 05:53

I'm only angry because it's unrealistic and I hate seeing small nations stupidly getting overrated players whilst the nations such as Spain are left behind a bit which is completely unrealistic and it ruins my experience, so, so much.

It doesn't effect me on an international level as I don't manage there, however I don't want to have 5 Libyan's in my invincible PSG side in the future though, it just looks ridiculous.

**cool** · 03-01-2012 06:06

Best potential rating doesn't mean crap in Genie. It is merely rating a player based on the programmer's attribute weightage. As the player improves, their best "potential" rating also improve too.

**TGP** · 03-01-2012 06:24

sure it improves but it gives a decent snapshot of the overall attribute distribution in important categories. very rarely does a players projected stats in a given category get significantly better than the projection. so a player with 9 strength projected to 14 isnt going to get to 16. or off the ball. its not iron clad but it serves as a rough outline.

**cool** · 03-01-2012 06:41

Not sure why you want to short players by best potential rating when their rating will go up as they improve. Doesn't tell you how good these guys can get.

**ArsenalFan7** · 03-01-2012 06:55

Here's the best regens in PA order then:

I just don't see how you can defend this? The nation youth PA's quite clearly are not having good influences.

**Some Guy!** · 03-01-2012 07:14

No, you're angry because you're using a small dataset and have a very Eurocentric view point on the matter. Along with this, like many on these forums you seem to think that regens shouldn't be any good and shouldn't compete with current youngsters and players. In a game where regens rarely win World Player of the year before the 2020s this is a very hard argument to agree with.

I also fear for people who complain that there is one good player from a small nation, like with the Estonian player there. Its one player, a bolt out of the blue. I'd be worried if that didn't happen.

To be clearer here a lot of these posts are from very early in the game, the oldest regen I saw in one of the posts was 22 with the mean age around 19 or 20. That is not a very large dataset and says very little on its own. In fact 20 years on a single save should say very little, but that's a different point. TPGs post is a much better example than your own ArsenalFan7. His list of top players there seem very realistic actually and I could see that happening.

I'd also point out that Spain haven't been that great historically and France and such have very little on the likes of Argentina and Brazil, who by the way pump out talented players this version.

You have this obsession with the Libyans, you got what... One or two good Libyan... OH NOES!!! Beyond the fact its statistically insignificant I don't really see the problem. Every once and a while there is a flurry of good players from smaller nations making them better for a time. Some nations also rise and fall in time, but neither of these have been adequately handled in previous games with the game instead basically making it such that France and Spain dominated in terms of quality youngsters. SI pegs this back and suddenly you call it a mistake. There is a lot of work to be done on their part, but there is nothing particularly wrong here.

More importantly I think the game need to have dynamic nations in the future. As mentioned the game doesn't handle this at all and situations such as the fall of Hungary (once one of the best sides on the planet) and the rise and fall of Uruguay are handled extremely poorly. Not to mention the rise of smaller nations in Eastern Europe. I mean who the hell would think that having 10 quality Croatian regens would have been okay 10-15 years ago?

Anyhow... Also, I'll just mention my own figures from this version:

In 2018 the Top 5 regens are from:

Nigeria
Argentina
Holland
Burkina Faso
Brazil

They are all still young though. The oldest regen is 25 and the median is 20. In terms of players with PA over 170 (153 players in total):

France - 28
Argentina - 27
Brazil - 17
Italy - 13
Holland - 11
Spain - 10
Cameroon - 6
England - 5
Germany - 4
Nigeria - 3
Egypt - 3
DR Congo - 3
Mozambique - 2
Burkina Faso - 2
Cote d'Ivoire - 2
Mali - 2
Belarus, Cape Verde, Ghana, Japan, Mexico, Morocco, New Zealand, Portugal, Senegal, Sierra Leone, South Africa, Turkey, USA, Uruguay and Wales - 1

The most unusual thing here is that Mexico and Portugal have only produced one player each. Burkina Faso, Mozambique and the DRC have produced a few players as well, which whilst unusual isn't unrealistic. There's no reason why these players wouldn't be produced there.

So, let's compare this to the original database then (218 players with PA 170+):

Brazil - 27
Spain - 22
France - 22
England - 21
Italy - 18
Argentina - 18
Germany - 13
Portugal - 9
Holland - 7
Belgium - 5
Uruguay - 4
Cote d'Ivoire - 4
Croatia - 3
Mexico - 3
Wales - 3
Turkey - 3
Austria, Chile, Czech Republic, Georgia, Ghana, Nigeria, Romania, Russia and Serbia - 2
Cameroon, Colombia, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Japan, Mali, Montenegro, Poland, Slovakia, South Africa, Sweden, Togo, Ukraine - 1

From this we can see that the current numbers from that save aren't so unrealistic. Here we must consider that any country with less than ~5 or so is likely to go through periods of having nobody and some with quite a few. This kind of thing has been seen throughout the footballing world. I mean, what would most people think if they saw a world class regen from Montenegro or Slovakia in the game? That's right, they'd make a thread to whinge about how unrealistic it is, however it does happen!

So, let's compare the above numbers a bit. Firstly there are less 170+ produced from 2011-2018 in my game there there have been from the database. So let's compare these figures as percentages for the biggest nations, that is the ones with above five 170+ players at the start:

Brazil - 12.3% => 11.1%
Spain - 10.1% => 6.54%
France - 10.1% => 18.3%
England - 9.63% => 3.27%
Italy - 8.26% => 8.50%
Argentina - 8.26% => 17.6%
Germany - 5.96% => 2.61%
Portugal - 4.13% => 0.65%
Holland - 3.21% => 7.19%

At this point I'll point out that this is from one game and only gives a quite as to how these numbers are similar, but do shift a bit. Interestingly I can look at this using a different save giving:

Brazil - 12.3% => 16.1%
Spain - 10.1% => 7.14%
France - 10.1% => 19.6%
England - 9.63% => 5.36%
Italy - 8.26% => 6.25%
Argentina - 8.26% => 6.25%
Germany - 5.96% => 5.36%
Portugal - 4.13% => 0.89%
Holland - 3.21% => 5.36%

Showing how much these can change from game to game. So yeah, long story short, its not really a problem and you seem to be overreacting in a massive way. I have a suspicion its because you haven't considered where most players are from, or you're a very Eurocentric thinking, but in any case whilst the values aren't exactly the same as they are to start with, they vary a lot from game to game and there is no real issue here as it currently stands.

**cool** · 03-01-2012 09:20

Your argument doesn't make sense to me at all, especially the part where high PA doesn't mean high CA in the future. How are we to know which regens will become top players? Are you telling me that Spain regens are programmed to develop better? If we assume all regens to develop equally, then obviously the country with most top regens will be better off by odds, even if some don't make it. And the excuse that youngsters may not develop to the top is kind of flawed since the top clubs in the game always snap up the top youngsters eventually so they enjoy top facilities early on.

Looking at the numbers you posted it backs up the threads assumption totally. Of course the numbers will not be exact given different saves, but they will fall within a reasonable range which will average out if you combine many saves together. From your 2 saves you can see that the numbers turned out to be pretty similar in the end.

**Some Guy!** · 03-01-2012 09:48

...and fairly similar to the original numbers. The only difference is that the likes of Slovakia, Togo and Montenegro were replaced by the likes of Sierra Leone, New Zealand and Cape Verde. Just because different nations produced the good players doesn't matter it unrealistic. Montenegro is not exactly a massive talent pool and neither is Togo.

**Nocuous** · 03-01-2012 10:12

Does anyone remember Wynton Rufer from New Zealand? I reckon He'd have been a 170 CA player in his prime.

**cool** · 03-01-2012 11:30

Originally Posted by Some Guy!

...and fairly similar to the original numbers. The only difference is that the likes of Slovakia, Togo and Montenegro were replaced by the likes of Sierra Leone, New Zealand and Cape Verde. Just because different nations produced the good players doesn't matter it unrealistic. Montenegro is not exactly a massive talent pool and neither is Togo.

Similar to original numbers?? Look at how much Spain, England and Portugal dropped from the original numbers. And this is only from a few short seasons. I have no doubt Spain will be wiped out from the football map after 20 seasons.

**ArsenalFan7** · 03-01-2012 11:34

Looks like the nation PA's have well and truly screwed over some of the big nations, quickly declining there.

**alexyfoot** · 03-01-2012 12:08

A few statistics from my save in 2023:
Players aged 18-26, CA 160-200. In brackets is the respective number in 2011 for CA 150-200 as the overall quality is much lower and it gives a better chance of observing the changes in terms of countries:
Argentina: 141 (9)
Australia: 2(0)
Belgium: 3(5)
Brazil: 154(22)
Bulgaria: 0(0)
Cameroon: 5(1)
Chile: 3(3)
Colombia: 1(1)
Croatia: 5(2)
Czech Republic: 8(0)
Denmark: 2(1)
DR Congo: 4(1)
Ecuador: 1(1)
Egypt: 6(0)
England: 4(8)
France (first nationality): 54(13)
Germany: 12(12)
Ghana: 3(3)
Greece:5(0)
Holland (first nationality): 17(3)
Hungary: 0(1)
Ireland: 0
Israel: 1(0)
Italy (first nationality): 12(7)
Ivory Coast: 2(3)
Japan: 1(1)
Mali: 2(1)
Mexico: 26(1)
Montenegro: 0(1)
Morocco: 8(0)
New Zealand: 0 (0)
Nigeria: 8(2)
Norway: 0(0)
Paraguay: 1(1)
Peru: 1(1)
Portugal: 22(4)
Romania: 4(0)
Russia: 7(1)
Scotland: 2(0)
Senegal: 8(2)
Serbia: 3(1)
Slovakia: 3(1)
Slovenia:1(1)
South Africa: 2(0)
South Korea: 1(1)
Spain (first Nationality): 16(17)
Sweden: 2(0)
Switzerland: 3(2)
Tunisia: 4(1)
Turkey: 19(3)
Ukraine: 2(0)
USA: 6(0)
Uruguay: 4(3)
Venezuela: 1(0)
Wales: 1(1)

EDIT: Nations re-highlighted to show where the major differences occur, it is accepted that the initial version is close to reality. Small deviations are accepted, but in some cases they are enormous!
Quite a few surprises there! I am not British and no need to defend the country's reputation, but 3...come on? SI!?!?! Brazil: 154!?!?!?! Seriously?!?

**ArsenalFan7** · 03-01-2012 12:15

I hope someone from SI seriously looks at these nation youth PA's then.

Turkey, Mexico etc completely overrated whilst some of the big nations aren't as good as they should be.

**alexyfoot** · 03-01-2012 12:20

Don't know about the PA, but the number of players and the country ratios in terms of reaching high CAs is absolute rubbish right now.

**SCIAG** · 03-01-2012 12:29

Alexy, any chance of a comparison with the original db? Looks to me like Brazil, Argentina, France and Mexico have increased by a stupid amount, Turkey have increased quite a lot and Spain and England (and to some extent Germany) have dropped a lot.

**alexyfoot** · 03-01-2012 12:31

***************

**alexyfoot** · 03-01-2012 12:47

Edited post #59 with data.

All that is on top of the overall pts basis increase - using the same amount of players I get the same amount of players with 137-200 CA in 2011 (513) as the number of players with 160-200 CA in 2023 (533).

**aderow** · 03-01-2012 13:06

Originally Posted by RBKalle

BTW I really doubt US soccer will get better as long as they'll be keeping their NFL-like structure...

College soccer, drafts, convoluted roster/contract rules, semi-rigid league system, franchises instead of clubs... USA may as well have 2 billions people available and they'd still fail to become a football powerhouse.

And speaking of quantity =/= quality, it shouldn't matter how big the population of a country is... talent is not a matter of "1 every N", the Chinese sport-factory system doesn't apply to football because class isn't something you can learn by iteration... Therefore there's no correlation between a country population and the chance of generating the next Messi.

Some countries have a bigger tradition, better facilities and the right "environment" to churn out awesome football players every single decade. Some batches will be better, some will disappoint, but all in all the landscape of the Top football scene hasn't changed much since the mid-50s, hasn't it?

As far as youth development in US is concerned, things are changing. Clubs have youth academies and they putting them to good use as nowadays a good amount of 16/17 yr olds are getting first team football. At least a couple did this past season.

As far as FM is concerned, the randomness in which newgens are generated has always perplexed me. But I've never put too much thought to it. I just sign em wherever they show, develop em, and continue to win trophies

**The Hand of God** · 03-01-2012 14:18

Originally Posted by cool

How are we to know which regens will become top players? Are you telling me that Spain regens are programmed to develop better?

Almost every country has a personality template that determines the likely personality attributes of their regens. Prior experiments regarding regen development have shown that attributes like Ambition and Professionalism greatly affect the likelihood of a regen reaching a playable CA.

So based on personality templates, Germany, Argentina, Portugal and Italy have the highest probability of turning any given high PA regen into a high CA regen. Brazilian regens have a lower-than-average chance for a big footballing nation but this is offset (to an extreme) by the fact that their youth output is 11% better than the next best country (i.e., Argentina). Countries like Turkey, USA and China should produce players with very low ambition (supposedly to reflect the influence of their culture) so, ideally, despite producing a lot of high PA regens, few of them should ever develop to be much more than just decent players.

However, I suspect that regen output was probably optimized for a smallish database and playing with 40,000+ players (or in my case, 100,000 players) will result in an exponential increase in the number of high quality regens over time.

Originally Posted by RBKalle

BTW I really doubt US soccer will get better as long as they'll be keeping their NFL-like structure...

I doubt MLS will ever be much better than a low level European league, but I do think the general US youth output will greatly improve for the reasons stated above. In most cases, given the increasing reach of top level scouting networks, the best American youths will be picked up by European clubs before they even enter the US college system.

EDIT: And in many cases, I suspect, that will result in losing some Americans to other international teams. The U.S. already lost two world class American players (Giusseppi Rossi and Neven Subotic) this generation.

**alexyfoot** · 03-01-2012 14:21

Final Edition (after a million logic mistakes and typos):

As after I posted my previous comparison I realized that CA 137 (2011)=160 (2023), I decided to compare the numbers between this two CA numbers on top of the previous comparison of 150 and 160 just to see if this ratio shows any different values. 2023 is first number, 2011 is in brackets (only 18-26 YOs):
Argentina: 102 (34)
Australia: 2(0)
Belgium: 3(12)
Brazil: 154(68)
Bulgaria: 0(1)
Cameroon: 5(4)
Chile: 3(6)
Colombia: 1(11)
Croatia: 5(10)
Czech Republic: 8(1)
Denmark: 2(4)
DR Congo: 4(0)
Ecuador: 1(5)
Egypt: 6(1)
England: 4(24)
France (first nationality): 54(38)
Germany: 12(39)
Ghana: 3(6)
Greece:5(3)
Holland (first nationality): 17(11)
Hungary: 0(1)
Ireland: 0(2)
Israel: 1(2)
Italy (first nationality): 12(23)
Ivory Coast: 2(5)
Japan: 1(4)
Mali: 2(3)
Mexico: 26(5)
Montenegro: 0(2)
Morocco: 8(4)
New Zealand: 0 (0)
Nigeria: 8(5)
Norway: 0(2)
Paraguay: 1(3)
Peru: 1(1)
Portugal: 22(13)
Romania: 4(2)
Russia: 7(5)
Scotland: 2(3)
Senegal: 8(6)
Serbia: 3(8)
Slovakia: 3(3)
Slovenia:1(4)
South Africa: 2(1)
South Korea: 1(2)
Spain (first Nationality): 16(62)
Sweden: 2(2)
Switzerland: 3(9)
Tunisia: 4(1)
Turkey: 19(7)
Ukraine: 2(5)
USA: 6(1)
Uruguay: 4(12)
Venezuela: 1(1)
Wales: 1(4)

I think this is more accurate than my above comparison as it uses roughly the same size pool, so the country variations are easier to observe!

Personal conclusion:
Overpowered - Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, Portugal, Turkey, Egypt, Czech Republic, Holland, Morocco, Tunisia, France.
Relatively Underpowered - Belgium, Colombia, Croatia, Ecuador, England, Congo, Germany, Italy, Serbia, Spain, Switzerland, Ukraine, Uruguay, Slovenia, Wales, Japan, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Chile.

I am saying relatively underpowered as I am comparing 137 and 160 CA just to use the same players pool in terms of numbers. In fact some of the Relatively Underpowered would be OK if the game wasn't overpowering newgens as a whole, but the ones that are overpowered are TRULY overpowered.

**The Hand of God** · 03-01-2012 15:02

alexy, how many players overall did you load in your initial database? Also, which nations did you set to playable?

Generally, I've found that playable nations tend to produce more failed regens while view-only and inactive nations tend to produce more regens with a high initial CA.

**Fredric Drum** · 03-01-2012 15:03

In 2031 in my game, largest database, the following nations have regens with PA 170+ a and up to 30 years old:

Argentina: 52
Austria: 1
Belgium: 3
Benin: 1
Bosnia: 1
Brazil: 52
Burkina Faso: 1
Cameroon: 4
Central African Republic: 1
Croatia: 5
Czech Republic: 4
England: 19
Equatorial Guinea: 1
France: 33
Gabon 1:
Germany: 19
Ghana: 2
Greece: 2
Guinea: 1
Guinea-Bissau: 1
Holland: 6
Italy: 27
Ivory Coast: 7
Kenya: 1
Mexico: 3
Nigeria: 7
Norway: 2
Peru: 1
Poland: 2
Portugal: 5
Romania: 1
Russia: 1
Scotland: 1
Senegal: 2
Serbia: 2
Slovakia: 2
Slovenia: 2
South Africa: 1
South Korea: 1
Spain: 18
Switzerland: 2
The Congo: 1
Turkey: 6
Ukraine: 1
UAE: 1
USA: 1
Uruguay: 3
Wales: 3

**alexyfoot** · 03-01-2012 15:06

42000 - Top two divisions from England, Spain, Italy and Germany. + All players with National Reputation worldwide. Most overpowered regens come from Mexico/Argentina/Brazil which were not loaded. You might be right, non of the loaded countries can be classed as overpowered, in fact all 4 I class as relatively underpowered. But then how do we explain Colombia, Serbia, Uruguay, etc...The massive increases appear in Brazil, Argentina, Mexico...they already produce massive amounts of talent so why make them even better (I personally can't see the "developing" country reason valid here - all of them are already developed in terms of football countries).

And the reason you gave yourself I'd consider a bug anyway...this shouldn't happen just look at the numbers...the national teams of the top 4 EU countries are not going to be competitive this way which is rubbish.

Btw the figures are for CA 160+, does the db generate higher CA players? I mean if I was comparing 130+ regens your argument would be even more correct but my figures are for 160 CA in 2023...don't know, I'd like some sort of explanation from the developers as I am getting confused.

**alexyfoot** · 03-01-2012 15:11

Fredric: what leagues do you have loaded as active?

**Fredric Drum** · 03-01-2012 15:13

Italy, England, France, Spain.

**alexyfoot** · 03-01-2012 15:19

Hm, you are getting more balanced active country newgens than me then...With me they pretty much s**k for now, especially in England where the situation is terrible - 4 18-26 with CA 160... (and relative to the other top countries they are not even world class 176, 177, 180, 166 while brazil has 9 with 180 or better)

**hehehemann** · 03-01-2012 16:02

Why dont you lot just edit the values for youth/regens in the editor before you start`a game? A lot of this seems to tie in with the high value for places like egypt and mexico, edit these in the editor before your game and it should even things out better, try boosting the netherlands and a few others, I think its just down to poor database management. I bet with so many people doing the research the balance has been lost.

**alexyfoot** · 03-01-2012 16:50

Obviously I will change it before I start a new game lol, that doesn't mean SI shouldn't take notice to do the same if they find they agree with us.

Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of the issue before starting my current game, so I think I will reedit all of them and start all over again as right now it is not even close to being realistic

**ArsenalFan7** · 03-01-2012 18:22

So in conclusion it's an issue with the National Youth PA's with some big nations falling, some rising far too high and then nations like Turkey completely overachieving in regen quality.

I hope these values are looked at by SI

**milnerpoint** · 03-01-2012 19:14

One very important thing that doesnt seem to have been considered here is how well have the nations done in these years, because that will also change the quality of players coming through from each nation, in my game Scotland is now producing more good youngsters because the nation is up to 7th in the world. Changing the starting database is fine, but unless those nations stay in the exact same place co-eff speaking then i dont see the point.

**endtime** · 03-01-2012 19:16

Or maybe Scotland moved up to 7th in the world because they started to produce overpowered newgens.

Also someone should really have a word with the Mexican researchers, because Mexico has been producing outrageous newgens for a few FMs now.

**alexyfoot** · 03-01-2012 22:26

In my opinion Scotland's Youth Rating was a bit higher than it should be. It wasn't far off but it was a bit higher than it should in my opinion.

**milnerpoint** · 03-01-2012 22:27

Originally Posted by endtime

Or maybe Scotland moved up to 7th in the world because they started to produce overpowered newgens.

I manage in Scotland, the regens only started appearing after the nations co-eff improved.

**scott MUFC** · 03-01-2012 22:36

the main problem with scotland is queens park, it uses hampden park, if you are managing a team, of say league 1 or lower. go a season or so, then do a player search in age order, rating and keep the filter on for unrealist transfers (so filters out all PROPER REGENS from the main clubs) and see how many are 5-4 star to you. as east stirling i found 3 at queens park alone. granted they are not world beaters. BUT it would give scotland an extra road to creating a newgen, especialy as hampden park is the national stadium and would also have the best facilities, whereas most national teams with national stadia do not have a team allocated to them.
you have the SPL facilites AND the national stadium producing these players. which might be the issue if a team in SD3 is developing newgens, does the game balance this out by doing the same for the clubs in there? if so that could increase the production.
as for the other countries.
france germany and spain seem to produce loads.
in my united save i have signed a few newgens from spain/germany and a couple of french, same with man city.

**milnerpoint** · 03-01-2012 22:43

Just looked, in 15 seasons they have produced 1 player who has gone onto make an international appearance. Every other player they have sold has either retired, or plays very low league football. Queens Park have a good youth recruitment rating because of the set up and the area they are in, but they will always lose out on the better players to the bigger clubs around them. They certainly have not produced any players i would chase after at any point.

**jb10billion** · 03-01-2012 23:57

Originally Posted by hehehemann

Why dont you lot just edit the values for youth/regens in the editor before you start`a game? A lot of this seems to tie in with the high value for places like egypt and mexico, edit these in the editor before your game and it should even things out better, try boosting the netherlands and a few others, I think its just down to poor database management. I bet with so many people doing the research the balance has been lost.

I've done this because it was doing my head in so many coming from Egypt & Mexico, etc. I increased a few and decreased a few others to what I think is a bit more realistic. IMO anyway. Not played a season yet though so can't comment on the outcome.

**Thomasmc135** · 04-01-2012 00:03

The best player in my previous save was from Swaziland.

**hehehemann** · 04-01-2012 02:56

Originally Posted by jb10billion

I've done this because it was doing my head in so many coming from Egypt & Mexico, etc. I increased a few and decreased a few others to what I think is a bit more realistic. IMO anyway. Not played a season yet though so can't comment on the outcome.

Thats good, could you run through a holiday game over a few seasons and let us know if it has any effect? I will do one too but cant until weekend once I get the new pc parts. Thanks, keep us updated

**alexyfoot** · 04-01-2012 09:54

Originally Posted by hehehemann

Thats good, could you run through a holiday game over a few seasons and let us know if it has any effect? I will do one too but cant until weekend once I get the new pc parts. Thanks, keep us updated

I am doing a holiday to 2023 again with changed values for the overpowered countries and a few of the other ones (couldn't bother changing Antiguas and Barbudas, lol). Will report back later today if it fixes the issue.

**looknohands** · 04-01-2012 14:57

If anyone has the time, it may be worth it to not only do a holiday save to check out the CA/PA values of these newgens, but to also see if any of these players are developing anywhere near their max PA. If, for example, the US newgens all seem to top out around the 140-150 range, then their PA ratings really don't matter in the long run. SI may have other features at play that prevent these souped-up newgens from becoming legendary players.

**alexyfoot** · 04-01-2012 15:02

There are 6 with CA>160 in 2023 in my save, but it isn't problem with USA but a problem with inactive leagues producing extremely good talent. If you have USA active you won't see such results (refer to the other thread on the topic).

**hehehemann** · 06-01-2012 02:08

any news on the holiday games?

**alexyfoot** · 06-01-2012 08:55

Originally Posted by hehehemann

any news on the holiday games?

Refer to Regens are too good thread.

**Koki** · 06-01-2012 10:38

Originally Posted by looknohands

If anyone has the time, it may be worth it to not only do a holiday save to check out the CA/PA values of these newgens, but to also see if any of these players are developing anywhere near their max PA. If, for example, the US newgens all seem to top out around the 140-150 range, then their PA ratings really don't matter in the long run. SI may have other features at play that prevent these souped-up newgens from becoming legendary players.

The problem are not only legendary players but also too many good (midtable-club) players. So players with a CA of 140-150 are also a problem. Since I won't go back to my save anyway, I looked at the CA of my players and I think it is safe to say that a human manager can win the league in a country like England/Spain/Germany with CA 140-150 players easily.

**looknohands** · 06-01-2012 14:42

In that case, though, you have to look at the number of US players currently playing for mid-table club teams and compare that with ten or fifteen years ago, then compare it with the save game to see if it's following any sort of logical trajectory.

**Cougar2010** · 06-01-2012 15:04

There is something that has been ignored in this thread which will skew all the data:

Newgens aren't all "born" in their country of nationality.

**The Hand of God** · 06-01-2012 15:11

Originally Posted by Cougar2010

There is something that has been ignored in this thread which will skew all the data:

Newgens aren't all "born" in their country of nationality.

But that is a function of the youth recruitment scope of a club. When a club has a global youth recruitment reach, it is simply able to draw from every country's youth output (which will be inflated for inactive nations). The foreign newgens showing up at Manchester United, for example, aren't considered part of the English youth output.

Regardless, in my test save, most of the inactive country CA inflation was happening internally, so, for example, the sudden surge of world class Iranians were first showing up at Iranian clubs.

**alexyfoot** · 06-01-2012 15:26

Cougar - all data I have provided in both threads is for the country of origin and not counting his dual nationality. So no, it isn't a factor.

**Cougar2010** · 06-01-2012 15:38

Originally Posted by The Hand of God

But that is a function of the youth recruitment scope of a club. When a club has a global youth recruitment reach, it is simply able to draw from every country's youth output (which will be inflated for inactive nations). The foreign newgens showing up at Manchester United, for example, aren't considered part of the English youth output.

I don't believe thats the case unless something has changed on FM12.

Any links to threads suggesting otherwise?

Personally my understanding was Man Utds youth intake's CA/PA is based on the club & country rep with nationality a separate unlinked piece of data added based on a weighted random taking into account the clubs scouting knowledge & staff nationalities.

**milnerpoint** · 06-01-2012 15:45

Yeah i dont think thats how it works, my understanding was the same as Cougars,

**Cougar2010** · 06-01-2012 16:32

Originally Posted by alexyfoot

Cougar - all data I have provided in both threads is for the country of origin and not counting his dual nationality. So no, it isn't a factor.

Good to know.

Overall though my feeling is the thread is too focused on PA given that a % of players will never reach their PA level. Looking at CA of fully developed newgens would give a better indication but at the end of the day its a very subjective matter. Major clubs have and will continue to expand their scouting networks in real life, this increases the chances of world class players being found in the most unlikeliest of countries (They no doubt existed in the past its just that it was rare for a major club to find and develop them).

Looking at two real life examples:

Spain - Despite their domination now with a generation of talented players this is a country that only qualified for 3/7 World Cups between 1954 & 1978 never making it beyond the group stage. Since then they've become regulars at major tournaments without really making a mark until they won the Euros in 2008. Looking to the future people seem to think they will continue to produce world class players but this is far from guaranteed and I suspect they will decline in the future until another "Golden Generation" arrives (If at all).

Egypt - Three times African Cup winners in 2006, 2008 & 2010 and yet only three of their regular players play outside Egypt. This is the polar opposite of other major African nations such as Ghana, Ivory Coast & Cameroon where most national team players play abroad. Does this mean Egyptian players are better? worse? than other African players. They are probably much the same but I'm sure many users would argue that Egyptian PAs should be lower.

At the end of the day its impossible to know what World Football will look like in 20 years time, the only prediction you can make is that it will be more competitive with good players coming from a much wider group of countries.

**milnerpoint** · 06-01-2012 16:36

thats they way i see it as well, hence why i was rather unmoved by the whole regens being too good thread. There is no way to tell what happens in 20 years and i really hope the guys at SI do not make the game so the only countries that will ever produce good regens are from the present day super powers.

**deejay10** · 06-01-2012 16:36

Remember clubs will improve facilities and I thought leagues reputation was dynamic ?

For example in my Swansea game I invested in youth facilties and over 5 seasons my academy has now produced at least 5 Welsh players with PA > 150, 2 of them with PA > 170. Not even counting the quality Welsh players produced at other British clubs in my game like Everton and Liverpool.

Now Wales are barely an average footballing nation, so things can change over time.

But for example nations like Denmark and Turkey are producing a few too many top young players in my game, and Spain not enough. Only the Barcelona academy is producing players with any regularity.

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