Manager reputation not functioning properly anymore

**fabioke** · 01-01-2012 13:01

It’s the first time in my FM career (Playing since 99/00) that I really need to admit that something is really broken.

I’m talking about the manager reputation. I started with a Sunday league Rep in the Belgian Third division for the worst team (ATH). After the famous “difficulty patch”, my whole empire started to crumble. The first season I was 7th in the league and the second season(with the new patch) I finished 13th with a better team. After many hours of research I found the reason for my underachieving squad.

If you go to match reports, you can see that practically my whole squad is saying that:

X is struggling to find the motivation to play when his manager has such a low reputation in the game

X Appears to have some problems to motivates himself to play for you

Even players that had no problems the year before, changed their mind somehow.

I’m now in my third season and the first season I’ve won Manager of the year, I was predicted 18th and finished 7th. Last year I was predicted 15th and I finished 13th. Shouldn’t I’ve won a little bit of credit by now. Even players with normal characters are still having motivation issues.

Is this staying like this forever, or does this fades away in time if I continue to overachieve? I can’t believe that players where this hostile with Mourinho, André Villas Boas and Francky Dury after they had proven to be outstanding managers.

PS:
Please note that my reputation has gone from local to national and I’m still having these issues.

Judging from the reputation bar( the only visual display that we have) in our manager profile, my reputation improved drastically. I'm very afraid that they will never respect me even if I win the Champions league with this team, just because I inserted Sunday league footballer before this patch.

I just hope that this isn’t hardcoded!

**pikeal** · 01-01-2012 13:21

Would you expect current pro footballers (at any level) to have utmost respect for someone who never made it to semi-pro level, let alone full professional? IMO Sunday League reputation is now as low as it correctly should be. You are at the bottom of a very long ladder my friend. Climb the rungs and see how far you can go.

**kostako** · 01-01-2012 13:31

A "better team" seems to suggest you brought in a few new players?

- If you've brought in any more than 4 first team players for the new season, your squad seems to take ages to gel which might explain the season result more than reputation;

- Any players you brought in would most likely have a higher reputation than those already in your squad, considering how poor the team's reputation is; and,

- You have to factor in the fact that your players from the first season have had their reputations also improved by finishing so far above expectations. Maybe.

**fabioke** · 01-01-2012 14:15

Originally Posted by pikeal

Would you expect current pro footballers (at any level) to have utmost respect for someone who never made it to semi-pro level, let alone full professional? IMO Sunday League reputation is now as low as it correctly should be. You are at the bottom of a very long ladder my friend. Climb the rungs and see how far you can go.

Thank you for your insight on this issue, but the problem is that all my players are on amateur contracts.

I don't believe that they need to worship me like in the previous patch, but somebody who has won manager of the year should at least have gained a little bit of respect?

Being unmotivated to play is a step too far, I think that indifference would be sufficient in my case. I’m not a rookie anymore.

**fabioke** · 01-01-2012 14:20

Originally Posted by kostako

A "better team" seems to suggest you brought in a few new players?

- If you've brought in any more than 4 first team players for the new season, your squad seems to take ages to gel which might explain the season result more than reputation;

- Any players you brought in would most likely have a higher reputation than those already in your squad, considering how poor the team's reputation is; and,

- You have to factor in the fact that your players from the first season have had their reputations also improved by finishing so far above expectations. Maybe.

I have thought the same thing, the main issue is that all of my players leave after six months or after a season (Amateur contract), except the players who are underperforming (even they have this motivation issue). There is only one player who is still there from the first season and he has no respect for me anymore after the new patch.

**FATPimP** · 01-01-2012 14:38

Originally Posted by pikeal

Would you expect current pro footballers (at any level) to have utmost respect for someone who never made it to semi-pro level, let alone full professional? IMO Sunday League reputation is now as low as it correctly should be. You are at the bottom of a very long ladder my friend. Climb the rungs and see how far you can go.

Two word for ya, Eli Guttman. Never been a pro footballer and today considered to be the best Israeli manager and a few days ago he started to manage the Israeli national team
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Guttman
http://www.uefa.com/news/newsid=940260.html

**Frankchickens1** · 01-01-2012 14:59

Yeh, but he wasn't that respected instantly, he had to work for it, and has been a manager since 1985
Pikeal says that the OP has to climb the ladder, just as Guttman has

Your argument is invalid

**fabioke** · 01-01-2012 15:16

Originally Posted by Frankchickens1

Yeh, but he wasn't that respected instantly, he had to work for it, and has been a manager since 1985
Pikeal says that the OP has to climb the ladder, just as Guttman has

Your argument is invalid

I can't agree with you, my reputation bar is on the same level as when I should start with the team with the highest reputation in the 2nd division. So according to everybody in the game I have already proven myself (The board, the Jury that has made me Manager of the year, outperforming the predictions and even our visual display( the reputation bar) except for my players.

Even the two star benchwarmer has these issues with me. 95 percent of my players is unmotivated because I have a Sunday league rep.

I'm getting quite sure that this is hardcoded, and will never go away, as my own reputation has already surpassed the club's reputation, and several player reputations.

**FATPimP** · 01-01-2012 15:44

Originally Posted by Frankchickens1

Yeh, but he wasn't that respected instantly, he had to work for it, and has been a manager since 1985
Pikeal says that the OP has to climb the ladder, just as Guttman has

Your argument is invalid

Ok, another one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Luzon

Played for a pro team 3 years(age 18-21), wasn't that great and got to manage the same team at 26 cause his older brother is the owner and got MAD respect from the players.
Just like Guttman he's one of the best israeli managers today managing the Israel U-21 team.

**BiggusD** · 01-01-2012 17:48

The issue is with FM, not real life.

I have managed Roma for two and a half seasons now, and have still not won a competition. I took the team into Champions League after finishing second the second season(which is above both media predictions and minimum requirements). Now we go into matches the third season with the whole squad being nervous, complacent or uninterested and there is very little response to my team talks.

It is not that we don't win matches as I am unbeaten in October still. It just bothers me that I started off with Regional reputation when I chose Automatic (should be average for Serie A, which is certainly not Regional) and now having National reputation and excellent squad harmony I am still not treated with respect by any player in the squad.

I have no idea why the team is so nervous.

**fabioke** · 02-01-2012 11:48

Originally Posted by BiggusD

The issue is with FM, not real life.

I have managed Roma for two and a half seasons now, and have still not won a competition. I took the team into Champions League after finishing second the second season(which is above both media predictions and minimum requirements). Now we go into matches the third season with the whole squad being nervous, complacent or uninterested and there is very little response to my team talks.

It is not that we don't win matches as I am unbeaten in October still. It just bothers me that I started off with Regional reputation when I chose Automatic (should be average for Serie A, which is certainly not Regional) and now having National reputation and excellent squad harmony I am still not treated with respect by any player in the squad.

I have no idea why the team is so nervous.

I have an idea why the team is so nervous, it's because the most important factor in the game (motivation) is artificially manipulated due to a starting reputation bug. You need to check the individual match reports for your players. I will post some screens this evening to support my claim.

**jayahr** · 02-01-2012 12:59

It sounds like something is wrong here indeed

After having achieved a national repuation (no matter in which way) you should not be treated as a complete noob as before, especially considering that your players will probably have an even lower reputation.

Maybe worth posting in the bugs forum.

**bolulu** · 02-01-2012 13:34

I think Fabioke has a point!
Since the patch motivation has been a bit of a nightmare. I have no idea how to make my players happy. I praise them when they do well & only give them a real bol***king when they screw-up badly at home. The best player after every game gets a personal plaudit from me.
I am currently manager of Foggia, top of the league (where they were expected to be) and playing well. Have only a few of my players with greenish tabs. All of the others are de-motivated. I say to myself "Who cares, they are playing OK" but this issue rankles with me.
BTW Fabioke, you should start all your games as a pro-footballer, otherwise this motivation thing will grind you down; also when if you ever go unempoyed you might as well pack that game in as you will be unemployed for 2 seasons minimum.

**fabioke** · 02-01-2012 17:29

Originally Posted by jayahr

It sounds like something is wrong here indeed

After having achieved a national repuation (no matter in which way) you should not be treated as a complete noob as before, especially considering that your players will probably have an even lower reputation.

Maybe worth posting in the bugs forum.

I'm going to take your advice on this one, I have always heard that SI was a company that was known for listening to their community and after more than 10 years I’m going to find out if this is actually true.

**fabioke** · 02-01-2012 17:41

Originally Posted by bolulu

I think Fabioke has a point!
Since the patch motivation has been a bit of a nightmare. I have no idea how to make my players happy. I praise them when they do well & only give them a real bol***king when they screw-up badly at home. The best player after every game gets a personal plaudit from me.
I am currently manager of Foggia, top of the league (where they were expected to be) and playing well. Have only a few of my players with greenish tabs. All of the others are de-motivated. I say to myself "Who cares, they are playing OK" but this issue rankles with me.
BTW Fabioke, you should start all your games as a pro-footballer, otherwise this motivation thing will grind you down; also when if you ever go unempoyed you might as well pack that game in as you will be unemployed for 2 seasons minimum.

The problem is that I'm not a Professional footballer (Neither was Mourinho, André Villas Boas, Francky Dury and the examples listed above), I can't rollback to the previous patch (steam) or change my previous experience.

I have invested 102 hours in this save game, the Demo was fine except for a few minor bugs, and I have played one season without this bug and one with this bug, the difference is just mind-blowing.

Motivation is very important for your team performance and the thought that previous experience outweighs the reputation bar is just shocking.

**Coentrao** · 02-01-2012 17:59

This doesn't sound right, it should be hard to motivate your players at the start but as you improve(and your reputation is already national) it should be easier to motivate the players.

**Keyzer Soze** · 02-01-2012 18:21

Have you try to check your reputation with FMRTE or FM Genie Scout?

For example, i'm managing Benfica, first season.

Benfica reputation is, atm,

spoiler:
8150

, according to FM Genie Scout.

My reputation is:

Home: 5523
Current: 5468
World: 2847

My reputation in FM is national, with the bar almost full (i suspect that it will change to Continental if i win the league)

I'm fidding very hard to motivate my players, because my reputation is very low when compare to the team reputation. It will take 2 or years for my reputation to rise to a level similar to Benfica reputation, so... untill then... it will be difficult to motivate players.

**fabioke** · 02-01-2012 18:26

@Soze My current reputation (Not bad for a club in the Belgian Third division predicted 15th!):

URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/currentrep.jpg/]

[/URL]

I did a small test, I retired from the Football world and created a new manager with a Sunday League Rep:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Conclusion: Even though my reputation has increased drastically, it's still not enough for 95 procent of my squad including the worst players in my team and youngsters.

PS: I have created a thread in the bugs forum http://community.sigames.com/showthr...operly-anymore

**Aquaplex** · 03-01-2012 02:04

I started out as sunday league manager and unemployed. Got a job with a russian first division team and my rep was showing as "national" then i quit that job few months later and was back to "local". I don't understand this flop of reputation. I think it should be more consistent.

**PaulC** · 05-01-2012 11:22

Is there any save game or pkms for the original post?

My feeling is that the world reputations of players in Belgian Div 3 should be low enough for this to be a relatively minor factor.......

**fabioke** · 05-01-2012 11:46

Originally Posted by PaulC

Is there any save game or pkms for the original post?

My feeling is that the world reputations of players in Belgian Div 3 should be low enough for this to be a relatively minor factor.......

Dear Paul, I will try to upload the save game this evening on your FTP if you want?

I'm currently at work. Thanks a lot for your reply!

**Preveza** · 05-01-2012 12:03

Pretty sure Jose Mourinho and Vilas Boas were semi pros, if not Sunday League

**PaulC** · 05-01-2012 12:13

Originally Posted by fabioke

Dear Paul, I will try to upload the save game this evening on your FTP if you want?

I'm currently at work. Thanks a lot for your reply!

Thanks! Post in here when its up there......

**fabioke** · 05-01-2012 18:43

Paul, I have failed to upload my savegame, I have tried numerous time with the windows key + E and through filezilla I had the same thing.

Below you will find a screenshot from filezilla.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Please note that your colleague Lucas Weatherby has also requested my savegame in this thread :

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...operly-anymore

And this is what it says if I use the windows key + E

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

**PaulC** · 05-01-2012 19:41

I dont know, but hopefully Lucas will be able to assist you.....

**fabioke** · 06-01-2012 20:06

After many attempts I finally made it! It's like the tactics in FM, sometimes it just works.

The file is called "Fabioke Reputation Bug ATH2" 110 MB, you can delete all the other files which I tried to upload...

In the meanwhile I have tried to attract more players to have a much clearer view:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

**singtelsux** · 07-01-2012 00:49

sadly, the game only recognize and boost human manager rep through silverware won in high rep league. respectable position in league, promotion or giant beating only have little use in FM world. it's been a problem forever.

gigi simoni, cuper, ranieri, allegri or even guardiola won't be a top manager in first place according to FM logic.

**Kuchiki** · 07-01-2012 01:27

I had some trouble with this but I think I managed to resolve the problem of my players not being able to motivate themselves for me by building up a relationship with my players. When I'm on their favoured personnel list lack of motivation doesn't seem to be an issue as far as I can recall. Making it onto their favoured personnel list is a whole lot harder than last year where it could easily be attained by praising their match performance, now it seems you have to fall out with your players and then make up with 'em to build up your relationship quicker.

**fabioke** · 15-01-2012 07:58

Originally Posted by fabioke

After many attempts I finally made it! It's like the tactics in FM, sometimes it just works.

The file is called "Fabioke Reputation Bug ATH2" 110 MB, you can delete all the other files which I tried to upload...

In the meanwhile I have tried to attract more players to have a much clearer view:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Any news yet?

**fabioke** · 17-03-2012 13:34

I hoped that this issue would be resolved with the new update, but I've tried to launch FM again after 2 months. And unfortunately I note that the problem is still there with the new patch. Well, maybe next year...

**Apos** · 17-03-2012 22:01

Ok,this is a bit stupid.

I've started my new save with "automatic" rep and since I started on the second division of sweden,I guess that the automatic rep must have been either sunday or semi-pro. In either case,everything was so hard to do,the boardroom would never agree with,players wouldn't get motivated for anything.

After 4 years of overachieving and having a firm place in the First Division Elite,the boardroom would deny having a feeder club every single time,even though I was one of their favourite personel,etc.

Then I decided to try something. I made a new manager with professional status. And the very first day of being at the office the boardroom agrees on having a feeder club without even any need of further convincing.

The reputation system as it is seems a bit nuts...I'm now expecting to see what effect it will have on motivating.

**afced7** · 17-03-2012 23:19

Originally Posted by singtelsux

guardiola won't be a top manager in first place according to FM logic.

Errr, why exactly? You do know he had a playing career right? Played in the 'Dream Team' under Johann Cruyff? 47 caps for Spain? So surely he'd have international player as a rep-therefore, no problem.

**x42bn6** · 17-03-2012 23:29

Originally Posted by afced7

Errr, why exactly? You do know he had a playing career right? Played in the 'Dream Team' under Johann Cruyff? 47 caps for Spain? So surely he'd have international player as a rep-therefore, no problem.

José Mourinho is a better example. Or André Villas-Boas.

**fabioke** · 18-03-2012 09:00

Originally Posted by x42bn6

José Mourinho is a better example. Or André Villas-Boas.

José Mourinho and surely André Villas Boas obtained an instant respect, André-Villas Boas career went vertically.

Acadamica de Coimbra 2009

Porto 2010

Chelsea 2011

AVB compensated his lack of professional experience with other skills. But sadly in FM, you can't replicate these beautiful careers. I feel that FM 2012 has shattered my Illusion that I could be like them in this virtual world (my ambition was even lower).

Because honestly that's how I saw the game: What happens if you put an intelligent football addict in charge, instead of a professional football player (When I load my FM save, I still hear this commercial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOwybu4IhR0 and I have adopted the What if commercial from Skybet for special occasions)

**hehehemann** · 18-03-2012 17:35

So whats the best option when starting a new game with all leagues loaded if the reputation is broken?

**kostako** · 18-03-2012 19:47

Originally Posted by singtelsux

gigi simoni, cuper, ranieri, allegri or even guardiola won't be a top manager in first place according to FM logic.

To be fair, every one of those men were accomplished professionals.

Mourinho on the other hand, even he was playing in the Portuguese second tier. And he was still at Rio Ave when they made it to the first division, regardless whether or not he played any games at the top level.

Andre Villas-Boas, whilst being the closest example, basically reinforces FM logic. He's a very smart manager, but he got no respect at Chelsea. FM correctly predicted he'd get the sack. He doesn't have high enough reputation, which is why in game he always got the sack then moved around mid-table Prem teams and abroad. From a reputation standpoint, he wasn't ready from Chelsea.

But back to the issue, I do think there should be more substantial gains in manager reputation for exceeding expectations.

**hehehemann** · 18-03-2012 20:30

So can you eventually build yourself into a respected manager with sunday league experience? or would it be best to start with a professional background to overcome this?

**Coentrao** · 18-03-2012 20:38

Originally Posted by hehehemann

So can you eventually build yourself into a respected manager with sunday league experience? or would it be best to start with a professional background to overcome this?

I started with a sunday league rep with shrewsbury and you eventuallly get the respect of your players(i think it took me getting to the championship first can no longer remember) it can be frustrating while building up the rep though, specially with loaned players that will constantly not listen to you.

So if you want a easier time in terms of motivating the team pick a higher reputation, if you want it to be a little more challenging start with Sunday League.

**Sussex Hammer** · 18-03-2012 20:38

Not sure about this patch as I have started a new game but previous patch I got promoted to the EPL then went something like 5th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 8th, 6th and was 4th in my last season and players STILL found it difficult to get motivated. I was told the issue was that I never won any silverware. Im mean how many respected Managers IRL win things on a regular basis?! This patch I started again as Sunday League Manager, because that's what I am!! Was bubbling along quite nicely and then lost one which became no wins in 6 and players are on the floor and I can't motivate them.

**Apos** · 18-03-2012 20:42

Originally Posted by hehehemann

So whats the best option when starting a new game with all leagues loaded if the reputation is broken?

Professional or International,with pro being more of the "normal" difficulty.

Semi-pro should be around "hard" and sunday league as it seems now is more of a "insane" difficulty curve.

Personally I'm seeing a really big change from sunday to professional. For the first time I see some team talks actually producing good results. I never had a good result on "expect a win" so far.

**fabioke** · 19-03-2012 14:29

The big question is the following, is this issue static or dynamic? Will the message (X is struggling to find the motivation to play when his manager has such a low reputation in the game) ever go away? Or is this imposed, unwanted gamebreaking difficulty level a perpetual burden.

André never had these issues in Porto or his first club. His failure at Chelsea was more complex then a low starting rep. He took a gamble to leave icons on the bench and replaced them with younger players, they could not live up to their expectations and the rest is history. If these players were capable to compete for the title he would be an even bigger phenomenon then Mourinho.

**x42bn6** · 19-03-2012 15:17

Originally Posted by kostako

Andre Villas-Boas, whilst being the closest example, basically reinforces FM logic. He's a very smart manager, but he got no respect at Chelsea. FM correctly predicted he'd get the sack. He doesn't have high enough reputation, which is why in game he always got the sack then moved around mid-table Prem teams and abroad. From a reputation standpoint, he wasn't ready from Chelsea.

I don't think it's "reputation" that caused his downfall. It's the player power at Chelsea, combined with the fact that Villas-Boas was perceived to have unfairly alienated some of the more, how should we say, popular players of the team.

I'd imagine the more sterner managers, like Capello or Guardiola, would have fallen into a similar trap.

However, it's not the Villas-Boas to Chelsea example that's a good one - it's Villas-Boas to Porto and with Porto. A relative newcomer, with little-to-no professional experience, and sometimes even younger than his own players, managing a Porto squad to the title. He received full backing from the players and board within a short amount of time.

**kostako** · 19-03-2012 17:21

I'd say "player power" or respect and likewise is represented in game by the individual players' rep, in comparison to the manager's. Plus alienating players in game makes them annoyed, disrupts the team.

And while I agree Villas-Boas at Porto is the most relevant example, we also have to consider he'd been coaching the youth team for years, spent time with the management group at Ipswich, acted as scout under two very well known managers at multiple world class clubs, and managed a national team. The starting experience levels in FM as they're written don't really account for any of that. He may have had little playing experience apart from the local leagues, but his footballing experience in general was at the highest level. Besides: in game-terms, he gets the home nation reputation boost in Portugal :P

----------------------------------------------------------------

A "Sunday-League Footballer" has no experience of any of those things that go on. Just imagine:

You make it into your local semi-pro side, and all of a sudden they drag some guy off the street and he's in charge of running things, and barking orders. No respect for him, football wise. He's never played more than a social kick-about.

Your team does well under the charge of this guy who supposedly had no clue. From a player's standpoint, they did all the work, they are the reason the team is doing well. The "manager" has no experience, so what does he really know? Just looking from the outside in, it has to be the players who brought about the success.

Your team continues to do well, and so on. My question is, at what point is it brilliant managing by a nobody, and no longer just brilliant playing by a group of footballers?

That manager has got to prove himself for years, quite literally, for people to take note (in game terms, for his rep to increase). Especially at the lowest levels, where the difference between doing brilliantly or mediocre can hinge on a single quality player. This works well with the far lower reputation for competitions at these levels, on the notion that with one or two good signings you can dominate, and your success is less to do with your active management skills and more to do with the players in your team.

The fact that somebody with no experience can start at the bottom and conquer the world is what's unrealistic. But that's the fantasy Football Manager provides, otherwise we'd not have a game to play!

Bringing it back round to the OP, I do feel that reputation gain for individual match victories is a little on the low side for matches you're expected to lose. I'm unsure if you get a reputation increase which takes into account your end of season league position vs. expectation, but for the lower leagues with their minute competition reps, that'd be negligible anyway.

**x42bn6** · 19-03-2012 18:26

Originally Posted by kostako

I'd say "player power" or respect and likewise is represented in game by the individual players' rep, in comparison to the manager's. Plus alienating players in game makes them annoyed, disrupts the team.

I don't agree. A player's power is only partly down to reputation. There are a lot of players who have high reputations who do not act in cliques. Players like Del Piero or Puyol, for example.

Originally Posted by kostako

And while I agree Villas-Boas at Porto is the most relevant example, we also have to consider he'd been coaching the youth team for years, spent time with the management group at Ipswich, acted as scout under two very well known managers at multiple world class clubs, and managed a national team. The starting experience levels in FM as they're written don't really account for any of that. He may have had little playing experience apart from the local leagues, but his footballing experience in general was at the highest level. Besides: in game-terms, he gets the home nation reputation boost in Portugal :P

It is only down to those that he has secured a managerial spot. We should be able to assume that we have had some experience in football when joining a club in FM, surely? Which brings it down to the manager's reputation.

Originally Posted by kostako

A "Sunday-League Footballer" has no experience of any of those things that go on. Just imagine:

You make it into your local semi-pro side, and all of a sudden they drag some guy off the street and he's in charge of running things, and barking orders. No respect for him, football wise. He's never played more than a social kick-about.

Your team does well under the charge of this guy who supposedly had no clue. From a player's standpoint, they did all the work, they are the reason the team is doing well. The "manager" has no experience, so what does he really know? Just looking from the outside in, it has to be the players who brought about the success.

I'd argue that a team can only do well if it is playing as a team, and therefore the manager is largely responsible for that.

If a team largely overachieves in season 2, it means that they did worse without that manager in season 1. Players don't just suddenly play better. It is down to the manager.

One exception is perhaps if a team underperforms so badly that them "bouncing-back" is to be expected, and hence the manager really doesn't matter (i.e. think Newcastle bouncing back from relegation - it was expected, and it would have taken a very poor manager for it not to have happened).

**Sussex Hammer** · 19-03-2012 19:22

As I said I am on Sunday League. Started first season well winning several games then I lost one which became two, then three and players werent bothered. Nothing I said worked morale wise even though I had been playing teams off the park in the first few games. So I went out and brought two in on loan, played them along with 3 youngsters from the Reserves in the next game and they won 3-1 and won the next 4-3, and yet with my "seasoned pros" I couldn't win for toffee!!

The main issue I have is it seems defeats bring bad morale very quickly and yet wins don't seem to breed the same confidence wise. I had lost two not back to back and yet morale dropped big time. Yet I was still 6th in the Championship, hardly rock bottom.

**fabioke** · 20-03-2012 12:03

It has been 2 months that I haven't played the game anymore.

Frankly there are two options left:

-Start again and begin with an automatic rep

-Go further and hope that if I keep overachieving, this message and the attitude towards me from my players will change.

As this issue is affecting a lot of fellow FM’ers, I will try to keep going further and see if anything changes.

My current squad would destroy the league if I was an international footballer. I’m curious what will happen with the motivation from my players. I will fight to reach the Play-offs, even though that my players play 50% worse with this bug.

PS: I'm Predicted 15th and the board wants me to reach the fourth round of the Belgian Cup.

**slich** · 20-03-2012 12:42

Hmm is this thread about the 12.1 patch? I personally didn't have a problem with it, playing in Northern Ireland starting as a sunday league rep, and now 9 or so seasons in I have a Worldwide rep while none of my players have that, and the team has 2 1/2 stars rep. I did win pretty much everything there is to win domestically as well as the All-Ireland Cup though, so maybe its not a problem of rep not functioning well but too much emphasis on only an actual win being recorded rather than overall performance like never finishing out of the top 3, reaching semis/finals etc. As a note, the only European comp that I won was the Euro Cup last year (lost the Super Cup versus Real) but I'm fairly certain that I was already Worldwide before then, even though the win boosted my teams rep from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 stars

**Vroomfondel** · 03-04-2012 06:51

I just discovered this issue myself. Started unemployed, professional footballer reputation, and was hired by Dresden in the 2 Bundesliga. I have been in charge for over three years, finishing top half each season despite having one of the lowest payrolls in the division. Most of the players in the squad now are my signings. And, surprise!, the vast majority are "struggling to find motivation when the manager has such a low reputation in the game" on a regular basis. Which is absurd.

So I did a little research with FMRTE. Here are the reputations of some of the other 2 Bundesliga managers in sim:
Thomas Doll (St. Pauli): Home 6524, Current 5714, World 4687
Karsten Baumann (Bielefeld): Home 6512, Current 6000, World 3669
Reiner Maurer (Karlsruhe): Home 5625, Current 5060, World 2776
Peter Neururer (Paderborn): Home 5556, Current 4046, World 2948
Heiko Herrlich (Duisburg): Home 6092, Current 4983, World 3742
Holger Stanislawski (Bochum): Home 7154, Current 5611, World 3910

And here's my reputation: Home 7019, Current 5860, World 1975

This rather obviously suggests that newly generated human-controlled managers are being handed inadequate "World" reputation, and that players are reacting to that deficiency even though the other rep stats are fine.

I did a quick test, setting my "World" reputation to 4000 (with no other changes). In the next match, instead of having 3-5 players "having difficulty motivating themselves" because of manager rep, I only had one, and he's the best player on the team (and therefore is the best candidate to legitimately have such a difficulty).

Of course, more extensive testing would be required to nail this down for certain, but it appears likely that this is the root of the problem.

**BiggusD** · 03-04-2012 07:04

The Roma savegame I talked about earlier is long gone, but I just thought of the fact that I always choose Brazilian/Argentinian nationalities no matter where I am managing. Maybe this hurts overall reputation more than if I had chosen Italian?

Nevertheless, we discontinued that save because his tactic was rendered obsolete after a patch. I wonder how many seasons coming 2nd and not winning major titles I would have to play in order to have my reputation increase enough to have the players I signed trust me? 5? 10? 30?

I would rather have the AI read my tactic, always choose the right tactical adjustment/team talk and robotically sell/release every single 2,5 or less star PA players and sign 3+ star PA players every season than indefinitely have players distrust me because I don't follow SI's career mode tyranny.

**Coentrao** · 03-04-2012 07:56

Originally Posted by Vroomfondel

I just discovered this issue myself. Started unemployed, professional footballer reputation, and was hired by Dresden in the 2 Bundesliga. I have been in charge for over three years, finishing top half each season despite having one of the lowest payrolls in the division. Most of the players in the squad now are my signings. And, surprise!, the vast majority are "struggling to find motivation when the manager has such a low reputation in the game" on a regular basis. Which is absurd.

So I did a little research with FMRTE. Here are the reputations of some of the other 2 Bundesliga managers in sim:
Thomas Doll (St. Pauli): Home 6524, Current 5714, World 4687
Karsten Baumann (Bielefeld): Home 6512, Current 6000, World 3669
Reiner Maurer (Karlsruhe): Home 5625, Current 5060, World 2776
Peter Neururer (Paderborn): Home 5556, Current 4046, World 2948
Heiko Herrlich (Duisburg): Home 6092, Current 4983, World 3742
Holger Stanislawski (Bochum): Home 7154, Current 5611, World 3910

And here's my reputation: Home 7019, Current 5860, World 1975

This rather obviously suggests that newly generated human-controlled managers are being handed inadequate "World" reputation, and that players are reacting to that deficiency even though the other rep stats are fine.

I did a quick test, setting my "World" reputation to 4000 (with no other changes). In the next match, instead of having 3-5 players "having difficulty motivating themselves" because of manager rep, I only had one, and he's the best player on the team (and therefore is the best candidate to legitimately have such a difficulty).

Of course, more extensive testing would be required to nail this down for certain, but it appears likely that this is the root of the problem.

As soon as you win something the problem is gone, until then as unrealistic as it sounds you will always have that problem.

I got promoted with Fortuna Sittard on the Dutch 2nd tier(with odds to be on the last place) and after 3 or 4 seasons finishing between 4th and 6th i won the dutch title and now the message doesn't show up anymore, the game should be able to recognize the manager achievements and adjust the reputation automatically, having to win a competition to get the respect of your players when you are clearly overachieving it's a little extreme.

**fabioke** · 06-04-2012 14:06

Originally Posted by Vroomfondel

I just discovered this issue myself. Started unemployed, professional footballer reputation, and was hired by Dresden in the 2 Bundesliga. I have been in charge for over three years, finishing top half each season despite having one of the lowest payrolls in the division. Most of the players in the squad now are my signings. And, surprise!, the vast majority are "struggling to find motivation when the manager has such a low reputation in the game" on a regular basis. Which is absurd.

So I did a little research with FMRTE. Here are the reputations of some of the other 2 Bundesliga managers in sim:
Thomas Doll (St. Pauli): Home 6524, Current 5714, World 4687
Karsten Baumann (Bielefeld): Home 6512, Current 6000, World 3669
Reiner Maurer (Karlsruhe): Home 5625, Current 5060, World 2776
Peter Neururer (Paderborn): Home 5556, Current 4046, World 2948
Heiko Herrlich (Duisburg): Home 6092, Current 4983, World 3742
Holger Stanislawski (Bochum): Home 7154, Current 5611, World 3910

And here's my reputation: Home 7019, Current 5860, World 1975

This rather obviously suggests that newly generated human-controlled managers are being handed inadequate "World" reputation, and that players are reacting to that deficiency even though the other rep stats are fine.

I did a quick test, setting my "World" reputation to 4000 (with no other changes). In the next match, instead of having 3-5 players "having difficulty motivating themselves" because of manager rep, I only had one, and he's the best player on the team (and therefore is the best candidate to legitimately have such a difficulty).

Of course, more extensive testing would be required to nail this down for certain, but it appears likely that this is the root of the problem.

Why is SI hiding? Can we please have an answer on this game breaking issue? I have only advanced for a half season, but I’m getting depressed after every match. Instinctively I check every match to see, if the issue is still there.

And now that there is apparently an adding league bug as well (http://community.sigames.com/showthr...eagues-problem), I’m afraid that I won’t be playing this game until next year. Starting a new game is not an option, because automatic reputation just doesn’t sound right.

**crouchaldinho** · 18-04-2012 23:53

Fabioke, I replied to you in another thread but thought I would also post my experience here.

I've had experience with this motivation issue in my save. I started out with Sunday League rep in Italy managing Giacomense and then Mezzocorona at the lowest level in the league system.

I've since gained a promotion and increased my reputation with some overachieving. At first, it bugged me that the players at Mezzocorona didn't respect me or had trouble motivating themselves to play for me (whatever the text says). It didn't stop me getting promotion with them though.

I've since moved on to manage Perugia where initially I was getting the same lack of respect/motivation issues. I do, however, have an old save with Mezzocorona that I am just loading up to check. I'm wondering if I did get rid of the message by the end of my time there. To be honest, I stopped checking after a while and just didn't take any notice of it.

And the verdict is..... well, yes, I've checked that old save and even at the end of my time there where I had promoted and consolidated the team, I was still having the same kind of message. 'Some members of the squad - particularly [my two best players] - are having trouble motivating themselves when you are their manager'.

At this point, my reputation is regional. The club's reputation is local. So yes, there definitely seems to be a problem here, because I honestly would have thought that the squad would respect me after my time there. I finished mid-table first season, finished 2nd in my second season, then consolidated in mid-table and got the overachievers award in my third season. I was untouchable with the board and also headhunted by Perugia, a much bigger club. Seems weird to me that my players would have found it difficult to motivate themselves for me after the success we had experienced together.

Weird thing is, I just loaded up my Perugia save, and I went to play a new game.... when I go to get my assistant's feedback, I don't have that message! So obviously it does go away eventually! I'm a Sunday League Manager at Perugia.

One of the players who wasn't motivated to play for me at Mezzocorona now plays for me at Perugia. It seems that he doesn't have motivation problems with me at Perugia.

**mack4life** · 19-04-2012 01:29

I don't think that there is anything wrong here.

Sunday League reputation is for people who are taking over amateur or at best semi-professional clubs.

**Sussex Hammer** · 19-04-2012 08:04

Originally Posted by mack4life

I don't think that there is anything wrong here.

Sunday League reputation is for people who are taking over amateur or at best semi-professional clubs.

I always take over a Premier League or Championship Club with Sunday League.

**tomtuck01** · 19-04-2012 12:19

Originally Posted by fabioke

Why is SI hiding? Can we please have an answer on this game breaking issue?

Game breaking? Get back in your box.

It's a minor thing at best, it doesn't you from doing well in the game.

**x42bn6** · 19-04-2012 12:51

Originally Posted by tomtuck01

Game breaking? Get back in your box.

It's a minor thing at best, it doesn't you from doing well in the game.

Given team-talks are a big part of the game, them not working properly can be considered to be "game-breaking".

**RBKalle** · 19-04-2012 13:06

I find this new twist largely unnecessary and a bit silly as well...

If SI wanted to enforce a "from zero to hero" career path they should have disabled the option to start with any club we want, or eventually gone for a FIFAManager approach where the user can choose "Career Mode" or "Freeplay Mode", depending on which sort of game he's after.

But amping up the influence of Reputation (or lack thereof) on players' reactions is just a cop-out solution to make the game artificially harder, while the realism goes out of the window in the process.

I mean... If the gameworld gives me the chance to walk in at Old Trafford and forcing Sir Alex into retirement, no questions asked, the same gameworld should recognize me as "Good Enough" to land the MUFC job. Of course not with stellar reputation, but with some sort of basic credentials that can allow me to start my job without an unfair disadvantage.
Then if I manage to **** off the key players, can't pick the right team talk and my 2-2-3-3 tactic is a recipe for disaster, it's obvious I'm going to get criticized or even boycotted by the lockerroom and eventually fired.

But I must have a fair chance, which under the current system I don't have anymore.

Otherwise if the key aspect is "realism", if I pick Sunday League reputation my options MUST be limited to clubs with matching reputation and expectations.
But even there, Joe Nobody and John Bananafoot have no right to complain much about their new manager not being a former international...

**jayahr** · 19-04-2012 13:36

tbf I'm always in favour of ways in which you can customize your game and the past experience setting is in the end nothing but that.

If you start at ManU, it's entirely up to you to choose whether you'll set your past experience to the max to very low. In the latter case you should have authority issues - after all you chose to have them yourself.
So that's fine with me.

However as stated above some time ago, the issue which the OP is facing (and on which the little reearch created by Vroomfondel may have shed some light indeed) is clearly a sign for a buggy implementation when it comes to a lowish choice of past experience.

**tomtuck01** · 19-04-2012 13:49

Originally Posted by x42bn6

Given team-talks are a big part of the game, them not working properly can be considered to be "game-breaking".

I started unemployed with Sunday League rep, and was England manager 5 seasons into the save. My journey has taken me via Seoul, Bristol Rovers, Boston United, and Swansea City befor England came knocking.

Like i said, there is a bit on an issue, but it is not big enough to be even remotely "game breaking". If it was, then success wouldn't be achievable.

**crouchaldinho** · 19-04-2012 14:29

Am I the only one who kind of likes the added difficulty?

I actually found my start in Italy as a Sunday League manager to be quite challenging due to this and I enjoyed it more as a result. Before, I would have quickly been able to assemble a team to push on very quickly. On this version of FM, it took me longer to attain the success I wanted and I'm guessing the motivation 'issue' was a factor in this. I still managed to be successful though even with this added difficulty.

I guess I agree with the thought that it isn't very well balanced just yet though. I mean, the idea in principle isn't terrible. If I'm Sunday League and taking over my first club, it sounds reasonable that I would have to work to gain the respect of the dressing room over time. Does anyone else agree with that basic idea?

**BiggusD** · 19-04-2012 16:07

Originally Posted by crouchaldinho

Am I the only one who kind of likes the added difficulty?

I actually found my start in Italy as a Sunday League manager to be quite challenging due to this and I enjoyed it more as a result. Before, I would have quickly been able to assemble a team to push on very quickly. On this version of FM, it took me longer to attain the success I wanted and I'm guessing the motivation 'issue' was a factor in this. I still managed to be successful though even with this added difficulty.

I guess I agree with the thought that it isn't very well balanced just yet though. I mean, the idea in principle isn't terrible. If I'm Sunday League and taking over my first club, it sounds reasonable that I would have to work to gain the respect of the dressing room over time. Does anyone else agree with that basic idea?

Yes the basic idea is ok... if you play a career save. When you play a club-building save and have no plans of ever managing another club (in that save), these reputation figures are completely and utterly pointless. I have no desire to to build up MY reputation in the game at all. In such a scenario, this so-called "difficulty setting" is effectively removing 1/3rd of the game from me (Team building/tactics/morale managment) for as long as it takes me to win a major title.

**x42bn6** · 19-04-2012 16:16

Originally Posted by tomtuck01

I started unemployed with Sunday League rep, and was England manager 5 seasons into the save. My journey has taken me via Seoul, Bristol Rovers, Boston United, and Swansea City befor England came knocking.

Like i said, there is a bit on an issue, but it is not big enough to be even remotely "game breaking". If it was, then success wouldn't be achievable.

"Game-breaking" is subjective. Not being able to apply team-talks properly can be considered "game-breaking" for others.

**tomtuck01** · 19-04-2012 20:14

Originally Posted by x42bn6

"Game-breaking" is subjective. Not being able to apply team-talks properly can be considered "game-breaking" for others.

No, it's not subjectove. Either the game is broken or it isn't. In this case it isn't.

Back in your box you go please.

**CityAndColour** · 19-04-2012 20:46

If an issue is enough to prevent a person from wanting to play the game, then it's 'game-breaking' for them. Hence subjective.

**tomtuck01** · 19-04-2012 20:49

Originally Posted by CityAndColour

If an issue is enough to prevent a person from wanting to play the game, then it's 'game-breaking' for them. Hence subjective.

I don't see how this very slight issue can prevent anyone from playing the game.

I think most of you think team talks influence things much more than they actually do.

**x42bn6** · 19-04-2012 21:10

Originally Posted by tomtuck01

I don't see how this very slight issue can prevent anyone from playing the game.

I think most of you think team talks influence things much more than they actually do.

It doesn't prevent them from playing the game, but it can stop someone from playing the game as they would like, and they may consider the workaround (if one exists!) to be (too) painful. This can be considered "game-breaking".

For example, if the game took 24 real hours to simulate one set of fixtures on the world's fastest gaming PC, it would be considered "game-breaking" by most people, despite the fact that the game is still playable (you just have to be very patient).

Everyone has a different tolerance level for bugs - and it is clear that you have a higher tolerance than others. You consider it to be a "slight issue" - others find it rather depressing.

**Karnage94** · 19-04-2012 21:16

I've noticed this issue but never really thought a lot of it. Never thought it would bother people so much. A lot of players for me with Tenerife have the lack of motivation line appear but it doesn't stop them from performing.

**Coentrao** · 19-04-2012 21:36

I just think that you should gain the respect faster, i mean if you take one of the weakest teams on the second tier to promotion and finish on the top half of the table for a couple of seasons, it should be enough to get the respect from everyone.

It gets easier overtime though even if you don't win anything, most new signings with low reputation will normally listen to you and if you take the time to praise/criticize players so you end up on the favoured personnel list they also start listening to you.

Can be really frustrating with loaned players though.. most of them will always switch off and look uninterested.

**fabioke** · 21-04-2012 23:37

@Mack4life, please read the whole story or maybe some of my replies before you post something, I took over the weakest amateur team in the Belgian Third Division, they were predicted 18th and I reached the 7th place. A jury decided that I'm good enough to be selected as Manager of the year. I kept overachieving, even reaching the 4th place in my third season (Sadly I lost in the playoffs).

Ath is an amateur club, so the players, especially the lesser gods have never reached my status. As shown on a print screen, my reputation has already gone up from local to national, this bug is hardcoded or at least badly coded.

This “reputation thingy” has a huge impact on the game, I’ve tried to make a new manager with international reputation and I destroyed the league with the same tactic and players.

@Crouchaldinho: I’m happy that the game is harder, but not due to an artificial barrier. I want to be outplayed by the AI. Believe me, I have even watched full matches and the difference between Sunday League and International footballer is incredible; it seems that they lose their capacity to play. It’s like Spain would become Andorra, just by being managed by a manager with a Sunday League rep, even though he has the same geniality as the best coach in the world.

Miles had once explained in a Podcast that motivation was one of the most important aspects of the game, it could make or break your team. Results are affected (even though i'm happy with mine), but the worst thing is to see them play on the pitch like unmotivated spoiled brats

@Tomtuck: This year’s major selling points.

1. Adding Leagues (Broken!)
2. New teamtalks (Very broken!)

I have played the demo (everything was fine), I bought the game (everything was fine), and after a forced update, my whole save was destroyed. If it was not gamebreaking, I would not be complaining on this thread. This year’s Football manager has one positive note, it has improved my English.

For the people that don’t understand, a small story:

A repossession gorilla knocked on the door: “Hey Tom, we are the repo team, our job is to remove 1 wheel from your Toyota Sega."

“Why?” Tom asked, visibly shaken and confused.

The armed repo Guy smacked Tom and took the wheel. Once Tom regained consciousness, he called the customer service and they explained him why this action was taken: “Tom, 30 percent of the customers said that it was not challenging enough to ride with the Toyota Sega, so we have decided to remove 1 wheel from every customer's car.”

**crouchaldinho** · 22-04-2012 16:46

I have to correct one of my statements above because I am still getting the motivational issue messages at Perugia despite earlier claiming that they had disappeared.

Fabioke, I see PaulC responded to this thread and that you also made a bug thread regarding this issue. Did you ever get any kind of response or information on this issue from someone at SI?

**fabioke** · 22-04-2012 18:06

Thank you for your feedback, Crouchaldinho. I'm very happy that there are others interested in resolving this issue, or at least trying to find the mechanics behind it.

I succeeded after many hours to upload my save to the FTP server; I even spent several hours to update both threads. People suggested me to make simultaneously, a thread in the bugs forum, but nothing helped. I'm quite sure that this is issue isn’t going to be fixed in this version. My biggest fear is that SI is going to follow this route for a few versions, destroying my favorite game eventually.

Below you will see my thread in the bugs forum:

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...operly-anymore

I know that my attitude is illogical, nobody of SI cares about this issue, why should I. I could just play some Minecraft or Fifa 12 and wait until this issue is sorted out. But my youth sentiment is giving me the fuel to improve this game; it’s one of the few games that I’m playing due to time restrictions. This is not the most fun game, but if everything works correctly it’s the most rewarding.

So SI, if you fix this bug, I will buy FM 2013. Get of your privileged asses and get to work please. There is a thread were you have stated that you will hire one person extra; steam generated more income, now it’s time to give back to the community instead of penalizing the customers who are helping to pay your salary for the last 13 years.

The best marketing is your happy fans that are evangelizing the non-believers on an everyday basis.

**crouchaldinho** · 22-04-2012 18:25

I feel your frustration Fabioke. After producing a bug report and uploading to the FTP, it's disappointing that you didn't get any kind of response from SI.

**crouchaldinho** · 25-04-2012 16:04

I've now won my first trophy at Perugia. We've won the Serie C cup.

Still my players aren't motivated to play for me. Starting to wonder if this will always be the case.

I've been in the game for six years now and got one promotion and a cup to my name, plus a couple of seasons of overachieving. You'd think that the players would respect my decent record in football management.

My reputation is regional and so is the club's. At my last club, Mezzocorona, my reputation was regional and the club's was local but the players still weren't motivated to play for me even though I had a higher rep than most of them towards the end of my time there!

**fabioke** · 26-04-2012 11:57

Judging on SI's Silence, the answer is no. I have the feeling that nobody at SI is actually playing the game. The issue is that the game becomes incredibly hard, but you have no idea if you would get the deserved recognition one day.

I'm very happy with your update, as I cannot motivate myself to play that savegame anymore without knowing if the message will eventually fade away. According to my test it's not just a message, but it affects your game on many levels. International footballer is definitely too easy, maybe automatic is the most honest Manager Rep?

I hope that you keep us Posted Crouchaldinho, as your determination stat seems higher then mine. It's interesting too see if you will succeed to defeat this issue. I'm also quite sure that a lot of threads regarding the cheating AI, are all related to Manager rep issue.

**Coentrao** · 26-04-2012 12:14

Originally Posted by crouchaldinho

I've now won my first trophy at Perugia. We've won the Serie C cup.

Still my players aren't motivated to play for me. Starting to wonder if this will always be the case.

I've been in the game for six years now and got one promotion and a cup to my name, plus a couple of seasons of overachieving. You'd think that the players would respect my decent record in football management.

My reputation is regional and so is the club's. At my last club, Mezzocorona, my reputation was regional and the club's was local but the players still weren't motivated to play for me even though I had a higher rep than most of them towards the end of my time there!

It's weird then, maybe it needs a top tier trophy after all..

**crouchaldinho** · 26-04-2012 17:10

Well, I've also won promotion with my Perugia team. We'll be playing in Serie B next season.

Will promotion as well as the Serie C cup help me out with this motivation issue?

I'm now national reputation. I think my team are regional and I'm pretty sure most of the players are too. Surely they have to stop this nonsense now?

I have to say that I'll be annoyed if I still get this message next season after my success this season. I'm six years in and I think I've proven myself to be a good manager for this level, so you'd hope that the players would start respecting me properly!

**fabioke** · 26-04-2012 18:36

Crouchaldinho, I was in the same situation. I was national and they were regional but the error message stayed. Now I honestly believe that you have achieved much more. I'm curious to find out what will happen in the Serie B. Maybe you won't be respected even after winning the Champions League with them.

**crouchaldinho** · 01-05-2012 12:47

As an update to this thread, I can say that the message did finally go away at Perugia after I had won that cup and won promotion to Serie B.

However, after half a season in Serie B with Perugia, I got offered a job at Brescia and accepted. Now I'm back to square one with the motivation issue.

I am now at a 'national' reputation club but my manager has now also reached 'national' reputation too. So I should be a good fit for this club. Yet the same old message is appearing to indicate that the players are no motivated to play for me.

I don't really understand why this changed, to be honest. On previous FMs, this typically happened when you were a low reputation manager and you took charge of a high reputation club. I can see the sense in that but I can't see the sense in the way it works now.

**Keioel** · 01-05-2012 19:46

Playing Alma Juventus Fano in the lowest playable Italian league my lack of reputation was really only a consistent problem for two players as after winning a few matches most of the players stopped caring. However, one of them still had issues about halfway through the 2nd season but now it's the third we're in Series B and we've won everything we've competed for so it's no longer a problem. In other words, yes your lack of reputation will hurt you if you're not winning, but if you are nothing matters. Much like real life I've noticed

Still can't believe we won the Supercoppa against Juventus.

**bleventozturk** · 02-05-2012 07:08

Originally Posted by BiggusD

Yes the basic idea is ok... if you play a career save. When you play a club-building save and have no plans of ever managing another club (in that save), these reputation figures are completely and utterly pointless. I have no desire to to build up MY reputation in the game at all. In such a scenario, this so-called "difficulty setting" is effectively removing 1/3rd of the game from me (Team building/tactics/morale managment) for as long as it takes me to win a major title.

Just chose a higher starting reputation then. I don't understand what y'all are complaining about. Why do you want to start with Sunday League reputation so badly and have no problem in motivating the players??? The game allows you to start with higher reputation where you won't have a problem to motivate the players, just do so...

**BiggusD** · 02-05-2012 08:04

Originally Posted by bleventozturk

Just chose a higher starting reputation then. I don't understand what y'all are complaining about. Why do you want to start with Sunday League reputation so badly and have no problem in motivating the players??? The game allows you to start with higher reputation where you won't have a problem to motivate the players, just do so...

International starting reputation isn't high enough either. Unlike what you say, in most of the big clubs you will have a problem motivating players coming from an international career, which makes sense, really. Except that this way of forcing difficulty takes away from the enjoyment of the game, since many of the game's features are useless for a season or two.

The idea that you start the game as a manager with no previous management experience is only relevant if you want to build up a career from the ground up. Most FM-players I know couldn't care less about that. I have no interest in these "roleplaying" elements of the game at all.

**crouchaldinho** · 02-05-2012 11:54

Originally Posted by bleventozturk

Just chose a higher starting reputation then. I don't understand what y'all are complaining about. Why do you want to start with Sunday League reputation so badly and have no problem in motivating the players??? The game allows you to start with higher reputation where you won't have a problem to motivate the players, just do so...

Because I want to start at the very bottom of the football ladder and work my way up. That's how I play the game and always have.

**bleventozturk** · 02-05-2012 12:15

Originally Posted by crouchaldinho

Because I want to start at the very bottom of the football ladder and work my way up. That's how I play the game and always have.

I consider starting reputation as an artificial thing. You can chose higher reputation and still start from the very bottom, with a non-league team, right? Don't get me wrong, I agree with you guys that the reputation should be more dynamic, so if you are succesfull in your first season, it should cause a significant bump in your reputation, significant enough to earn your players' respect, because 1 year is actually a long time in real life. It is certainly enough to earn your players' respect, if you bring success to the club, if the team overperforms.

I understand this is not working properly in the game, but starting with a higher reputation, but in a small team, is a workaround that you can use. Don't worry too much about your reputation value, you would still be starting from the bottom if you chose such a team.

**crouchaldinho** · 02-05-2012 12:28

Bleventozturk, I shouldn't have to do that in order to get the game to work properly!

I understand that you are offering it up as a 'work around' but I don't feel right selecting anything other than Sunday League and this is for practical reasons as much as anything else.

How, for example, will I know when I have 'earned' the right to manage a bigger side if I start with a higher reputation? I want to start from the bottom and work my way up. I don't want to be offered a big job straight away. And I don't want to have to impose artificial restrictions on myself to manage it.

I also don't want the advantage of starting with a higher reputation in terms of being able to sign better players or whatever. When I start in Non-League football, for example, I want to be a Non-League reputation manager!

I hate this 'quite a few players are finding it difficult to motivate themselves when you are the manager' message when it is coming after several successful seasons at a club. It used to be the case that this would typically happen when you were a low reputation manager and you took charge of a high reputation club. Suddenly on FM12, this has changed, and the new system doesn't make any logical sense to me. Clearly it isn't working as intended.

Having said that, it does not seem to impact in a hugely significant way, in my experience, and I'm still playing my lower league save in Italy as a result. It's just frustrating to have this issue, as I'm sure you can understand, and I don't understand why it was changed, what has gone wrong, why there has been no information forthcoming from SI and so on and so forth!

**marty78** · 02-05-2012 12:31

Your own players respect for you shouold be based only on how you treat them and how results are going. Only other clubs or players you want to sign should be judging your rep. A manager can gain respect of players without being a big name in RL. At the very beginning it is fine if the players are unsure and need to be won over but that should not take years but mere months.

My current save I was expected to achieve a top half finish but was playing well and was in the top two all season and with 6 games to go. At that stage nerves seem to creep in as promotion to the premier league was in sight, fair enough. I decided that it would be best to not be too expectant and to give players belief with pressure lifting team talks. The result was players having no reaction and still being nervous or switching off and looking disinterested and when I said for the fans they got stressed. Even after overchieving all season and leading the team to the brink of promotion and the league it still says most players struggling to be motivated playing for me. That is with automatic rep and I feel for the guys with sunday league rep, that must be hell.

**milnerpoint** · 02-05-2012 12:32

Could it be a case of that part of the feedback not working properly rather than you not actually being respected by your team? If your doing well, then i would suggest it could be the former rather than the latter.

**Neil Brock** · 02-05-2012 12:35

The thing is, this does happen in real life even with managers with high reputation. Look at AVB and Roy Hodgson at Liverpool - I'd absolutely say there were certain players within the camp who were not motivated to play for these managers even though both had pretty fantastic reputations coming in. With all new managerial positions there will be a period of uncertainty as the players get used to the manager and he will have to win them over. If this is going on for too long despite success then the issue is likely more serious - either way I'm pretty certain we're looking into it.

**x42bn6** · 02-05-2012 12:37

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

The thing is, this does happen in real life even with managers with high reputation. Look at AVB and Roy Hodgson at Liverpool - I'd absolutely say there were certain players within the camp who were not motivated to play for these managers even though both had pretty fantastic reputations coming in. With all new managerial positions there will be a period of uncertainty as the players get used to the manager and he will have to win them over. If this is going on for too long despite success then the issue is likely more serious - either way I'm pretty certain we're looking into it.

Shouldn't this be down to their, well, "Motivation" attribute, though? And in both Villas-Boas's case and Hodgson's case, possibly a lack of man-management skills?

I think using reputation is double-counting motivation in a lot of ways.

**crouchaldinho** · 02-05-2012 12:48

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

The thing is, this does happen in real life even with managers with high reputation. Look at AVB and Roy Hodgson at Liverpool - I'd absolutely say there were certain players within the camp who were not motivated to play for these managers even though both had pretty fantastic reputations coming in. With all new managerial positions there will be a period of uncertainty as the players get used to the manager and he will have to win them over. If this is going on for too long despite success then the issue is likely more serious - either way I'm pretty certain we're looking into it.

Hi Neil. I agree with the point that you're making here but it isn't very well balanced just yet in FM12 in my opinion.

I mean, the idea in principle makes sense to me. If I'm a Sunday League manager and taking over my first club, it sounds reasonable that I would have to work to gain the respect of the dressing room initially. That basic idea is fine.

Where it falls down is when I've been at a club for three or four seasons, had good success, even have a higher reputation than the club and the players, and yet still they aren't motivated to play for me!

We can assume that both Roy and AVB would have won over the dressing room, surely, after some sustained success over a couple of seasons?

**marty78** · 02-05-2012 12:49

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

The thing is, this does happen in real life even with managers with high reputation. Look at AVB and Roy Hodgson at Liverpool - I'd absolutely say there were certain players within the camp who were not motivated to play for these managers even though both had pretty fantastic reputations coming in. With all new managerial positions there will be a period of uncertainty as the players get used to the manager and he will have to win them over. If this is going on for too long despite success then the issue is likely more serious - either way I'm pretty certain we're looking into it.

It does indeed but, as I said in my previous post, playing well and getting results will normally win the respect of players(fans & board also) pretty quickly in the same way getting poor performances and results leads to the losing the dressing quite often. I also think the lower down the leagues you are the quicker that respect should be earned.

@crouchaldinho - I don't think it should take seasons of success. One season of success should earn your players respect, after all it is you making them successful. Even half a season of exceptional results should give them faith you are right man and get them behind you.

**Neil Brock** · 02-05-2012 14:06

Originally Posted by x42bn6

Shouldn't this be down to their, well, "Motivation" attribute, though? And in both Villas-Boas's case and Hodgson's case, possibly a lack of man-management skills?

I think using reputation is double-counting motivation in a lot of ways.

I'd disagree with that to an extent - I'd say some managers could be fantastic motivators, likewise fantastic man-management but their reputation may well be too low for the 'big' players. Look at the success Roy has had at near enough every other club except Liverpool. I personally don't see a problem with there being some overlap between these areas. As said though, this is an area which the coders will be looking into for any future version and all opinions will be taken into account.

**crouchaldinho** · 02-05-2012 14:22

Originally Posted by marty78

It does indeed but, as I said in my previous post, playing well and getting results will normally win the respect of players(fans & board also) pretty quickly in the same way getting poor performances and results leads to the losing the dressing quite often. I also think the lower down the leagues you are the quicker that respect should be earned.

@crouchaldinho - I don't think it should take seasons of success. One season of success should earn your players respect, after all it is you making them successful. Even half a season of exceptional results should give them faith you are right man and get them behind you.

That's true Marty. I do agree.

**BiggusD** · 02-05-2012 14:22

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

The thing is, this does happen in real life even with managers with high reputation. Look at AVB and Roy Hodgson at Liverpool - I'd absolutely say there were certain players within the camp who were not motivated to play for these managers even though both had pretty fantastic reputations coming in. With all new managerial positions there will be a period of uncertainty as the players get used to the manager and he will have to win them over. If this is going on for too long despite success then the issue is likely more serious - either way I'm pretty certain we're looking into it.

Originally Posted by crouchaldinho

Hi Neil. I agree with the point that you're making here but it isn't very well balanced just yet in FM12 in my opinion.

I mean, the idea in principle makes sense to me. If I'm a Sunday League manager and taking over my first club, it sounds reasonable that I would have to work to gain the respect of the dressing room initially. That basic idea is fine.

Where it falls down is when I've been at a club for three or four seasons, had good success, even have a higher reputation than the club and the players, and yet still they aren't motivated to play for me!

We can assume that both Roy and AVB would have won over the dressing room, surely, after some sustained success over a couple of seasons?

Originally Posted by marty78

It does indeed but, as I said in my previous post, playing well and getting results will normally win the respect of players(fans & board also) pretty quickly in the same way getting poor performances and results leads to the losing the dressing quite often. I also think the lower down the leagues you are the quicker that respect should be earned.

@crouchaldinho - I don't think it should take seasons of success. One season of success should earn your players respect, after all it is you making them successful. Even half a season of exceptional results should give them faith you are right man and get them behind you.

Yes I agree with all of you. Neil has a point - low reputation managers should have problems motivating high reputation players. Marty and Crouchaldinho both make sense, though - it shouldn't be as slow to improve as it is now. However, the increased reputation influences much more than just player motivation, so I don't think just tweaking the rate of reputation increase would be a good idea.

I think the solution is to add a third layer of reputation. In addition to World and Home reputation, there should be a Club reputation! It is possible to be a very popular manager in the club without being recognized as such in the nation or globally. Club reputation could rise quickly if the fans and the players are satisfied with things, or, in the case of Hodgson, a high national or world reputation wouldn't help much if the club and its fans hate him (because he managed rival clubs before or they hated his style of football).

**marty78** · 02-05-2012 14:38

Club reputation would be a great idea. Your own players are likely respect and acknowledge your abilty before it spreads elsewhere.

**milnerpoint** · 02-05-2012 14:50

Yeah club rep is a fantastic idea!

**x42bn6** · 02-05-2012 20:24

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

I'd disagree with that to an extent - I'd say some managers could be fantastic motivators, likewise fantastic man-management but their reputation may well be too low for the 'big' players. Look at the success Roy has had at near enough every other club except Liverpool. I personally don't see a problem with there being some overlap between these areas. As said though, this is an area which the coders will be looking into for any future version and all opinions will be taken into account.

So motivation is essentially ignored at the highest level?

**lonestar190** · 03-05-2012 03:21

To be honest I think the entire reputation system needs scrapping and rebuilding from the ground up. Currently, the game fails to take into account over achieving and underachieving when calculating rep. You get an increase or decrease in rep based on each game's result, but nothing based on your overall performance unless you win a trophy or cup. This is for the most part completely the opposite of real life.

**fabioke** · 06-05-2012 09:06

Dear Neill, I'm glad that somebody from SI took the courage to reply. But let's not forget the real issue. I have picked an amateur Team, so they have got less success then me in their careers. And even the weaker players feel that they are too good for me.
I can understand that the teams that never heard of me are not excited when they hear my name. I could even understand that it would be more difficult to attract players. But my own team and my own division (They have treated me with respect, as I have received an award) should treat me with respect.

Three years of overachieving, is a long time. They were not good enough to stay in the third division when I arrived, now they are a respectable team in the Belgian third division. In real life they would build a statue for me. It is even worse that it influences the way they play on the pitch, creating an artificial difficulty level, for those that are seeking for realism it’s a blow in our faces.

I don’t understand that everybody uses the big teams as an example; there are enough Sunday league footballers that had successes outside of the UK. They were respected within the first season. Three year’s is a very long time, if you work somewhere for three year’s especially in a football club, then you’re already somebody experienced and respected in your club/work.

So I need to say that I’m very interested in the Club reputation, as it would solve this issue once and for all.

**Liquid Cool** · 06-05-2012 17:58

Originally Posted by BiggusD

Yes I agree with all of you. Neil has a point - low reputation managers should have problems motivating high reputation players. Marty and Crouchaldinho both make sense, though - it shouldn't be as slow to improve as it is now. However, the increased reputation influences much more than just player motivation, so I don't think just tweaking the rate of reputation increase would be a good idea.

I think the solution is to add a third layer of reputation. In addition to World and Home reputation, there should be a Club reputation! It is possible to be a very popular manager in the club without being recognized as such in the nation or globally. Club reputation could rise quickly if the fans and the players are satisfied with things, or, in the case of Hodgson, a high national or world reputation wouldn't help much if the club and its fans hate him (because he managed rival clubs before or they hated his style of football).

That's a great idea. In my current game, David Moyes has just taken over at Liverpool (after Rijkaard got about a season, Mourinho got about 8 months before him and I got about the same before that; brutal club to manage) - which would never happen in the real world.

If there was some kind of club reputation added to the game, it could have the added effect of preventing those kinds of appointments happening, if the board looked at that variable before hiring a manager.

**fabioke** · 16-05-2012 20:52

I make this post because this version of FM is ridiculous, and I seriously believe that SI is losing all their credibility that they have built the last years.

I have started a new save choosing the automatic starting rep. Started again in the Belgium third division, this time with Mouscron Peruwelz. I won the league and guess what happens in the second season? The whole squad is not motivated to play for me anymore, even the players that won the third division with me last year.

Shame on you SI, this is becoming the worst version ever. Ghost goals in important matches, Adding/removing leagues destroying the game. Choosing Sunday league rep destroys your game and guess what: even winning competitions destroy the game if you chose automatic.

PS: Apparently my best players weren't even motivated last year. I was predicted 7th in the Belgian third division and I won the league, receiving the second place in the third division Manager award.

As I have not added any leagues in this save, I will continue this save and I want to experience myself if this message will ever go away.

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