0-21 & 15-21 and other bugs

[Benfran]

Ok, so a player has to be trained for 3 years before being 21 in the club to be able to be considered as home grown.

What i don't understand is why are there 2 types of home-grown players ??

It's incredibly annoying: You buy a player when he's 17 or 18. You spend 3 years training him, letting him play cup matches,basically forming him, so that one day (3 years later) he can be registered in champions league as a homegrown player.

When you look at the squad, in the home grown status view, it says that the player will be considered as trained by the club on a certain date. IT NEVER SAYS ANYWHERE IF HE WILL BE 15-21 or 0-21.

Then comes the 3rd or 4th season, you can register that player (Sanogo for example) as a home grown in the premier league, but then BOOM !! You go to the champions league registration and he's not considered as a home grown there !! All your squad plans for that season are screwed.

This is unacceptable ! First of all because i think in reality there's no such thing as 0-21 or 15-21,and even if there was, i think SI should clarifiy if that player will be able to be registered in european competitions. Not just say he will be trained at club in 3 yrs.

The most shameful thing is that in other posts SI has said to correct this bug using a 3rd party software like FMRTE....way to go!

This bug makes me want to stop playing this game, my whole philosophy is based on buying young players and then form them myself....but what's the point in playing if you dont even know if that player will be useful for champions registration ?

Really pathetic.

As pathetic as the new bug/feature in 12.1.1 with in game tactics. You have 3 made tactics, but when you're in the middle of the game you can't change from one to another like before. You have to put it as starting tactic !! Really ?? I mean starting tactic in the middle of the game ?? I lost 3 matches because of this, until i read the official bugs post.

I've played this game for 10 years now, since CM. This 12.1.1 is BY FAR the worst update i've ever seen....and since its with f****** Steam, there's no way to downgrade to a previous version like before.

I've loved this game, and played many many hours since i was a teenager, but i think this will be the last time i buy it !

[kris0710]

Just a very quick comment to say maybe you should type into a search engine about home grown rules and you may realise why players like Sanogo cannot be registered. Without seeing your squad and the history of each of the players it would be unfair of me to say you are wrong but a very quick read of the rules may explain to you why not everyone you feel are homegrown are?

It was a problem i had last year so read the rules set by UEFA and now i know exactly where i stand when it comes to choosing my 25 players.

[The Welsh Lad]

FIFA and UEFA brought the rule in for the Champions League, so SI implemented it into the game.

0-21 means from birth i.e. your youth system
15-21 means bought

They then fall under 2 categories: CLUB and NATION

[kris0710]

UEFA defines locally-trained or 'homegrown' players as those who, regardless of their nationality, have been trained by their club or by another club in the same national association for at least three years between the age of 15 and 21. Up to half of the locally-trained players must be from the club itself, with the others being either from the club itself or from other clubs in the same association.

[BiggusD]

Just a very quick comment to say maybe you should type into a search engine about home grown rules and you may realise why players like Sanogo cannot be registered. Without seeing your squad and the history of each of the players it would be unfair of me to say you are wrong but a very quick read of the rules may explain to you why not everyone you feel are homegrown are?

It was a problem i had last year so read the rules set by UEFA and now i know exactly where i stand when it comes to choosing my 25 players.

You will not find rules for 0-21 home grown players simply because such a category does not exist.

Either the player will be fully home-grown at club in the season update after the third year since he arrived, or he will not because he was 19 or older the season he signed. This means that your player can't have turned 19 the first of January the first season at the club if he is to be home-grown.

The rules coded in FM sets the limit erronously at 1st of July (or is it 25th of June, even?). If you sign a Brazilian who has turned 18 before he can arrive the 1st of July, he won't count towards the hg-rules. The rule is that he must be 18 or less before the 1st of January, not 1st of July - in other words it is the year he is born not the date.

Every player in Europe that is born in 1993 or later should be home-grown at club by the start of season 2014-2015, if they stay at the club and isn't loaned out or otherwise registered elsewhere. If they leave before that to a club in the same nation, they will be home-grown in nation by the start of season 2014-2015.

[Benfran]

FIFA and UEFA brought the rule in for the Champions League, so SI implemented it into the game.

0-21 means from birth i.e. your youth system
15-21 means bought

They then fall under 2 categories: CLUB and NATION

That's not true !

I have bought 2 players in the beginning, summer 11, with liverpool.
Both were 18 yrs old at that time. One is brazilian (romario) the other is french (sanogo).

Romario is now (2014) considered as homegrown 15-21 and could be registered in both league and CL as HG.

Sanogo is now considered as homegrown 0-21 and COULD NOT be registered in CL as HG but he could in premier league.

Obviously the 0-21 has nothing to do with my youth system, since Sango has it.

If this is not a bug, PLEASE someone explain me why one has 0-21 and the other has 15-21, since both are foreigners and both came to my club at the same age and have NEVER been given on loan in these 3 years.

[Neil Brock]

If you feel this is an issue please post it in the Bugs Forum and upload a save game example and we'll take a look. And please don't use the word 'pathetic' to describe issues with the game - it really is incredibly disrespectful. Thanks.

[McMaster#28]

Have you loaned out Sanogo at all? That would stop him being clubgrown for the CL in real life.

[BiggusD]

That's not true !

I have bought 2 players in the beginning, summer 11, with liverpool.
Both were 18 yrs old at that time. One is brazilian (romario) the other is french (sanogo).

Romario is now (2014) considered as homegrown 15-21 and could be registered in both league and CL as HG.

Sanogo is now considered as homegrown 0-21 and COULD NOT be registered in CL as HG but he could in premier league.

Obviously the 0-21 has nothing to do with my youth system, since Sango has it.

If this is not a bug, PLEASE someone explain me why one has 0-21 and the other has 15-21, since both are foreigners and both came to my club at the same age and have NEVER been given on loan in these 3 years.

What is their birth year? 1993?

[BiggusD]

If you feel this is an issue please post it in the Bugs Forum and upload a save game example and we'll take a look. And please don't use the word 'pathetic' to describe issues with the game - it really is incredibly disrespectful. Thanks.

You really haven't heard about this before?

[Neil Brock]

You really haven't heard about this before?

Me personally? No, I haven't. If it has been raised somewhere else and someone from SI has already said it's under review then fair enough - if that is the case then I'm not quite sure why this thread has been made? Basically if there's an issue which you think is a bug then ideally post it in the bugs forums so it doesn't get missed. Cheers.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Me personally? No, I haven't. If it has been raised somewhere else and someone from SI has already said it's under review then fair enough - if that is the case then I'm not quite sure why this thread has been made? Basically if there's an issue which you think is a bug then ideally post it in the bugs forums so it doesn't get missed. Cheers.

This is the latest in a long line of such threads.

The latest from the bugs forum:-

The problem was happening to players that turned 21 during the season where they should gain the 15-21 HG Status. Unfortunately there was not enough time for this fix to be included in the latest Update.

I believe it is possible to change the HG Status of a player using the FMRTE in-game Editor, which should allow you to give the affected players the correct HG status.

here http://community.sigames.com/showthr...28#post7418128

Neil, I hope you don't close that thread for the same reason you closed this one http://community.sigames.com/showthr...p/293245-Angry!

[Neil Brock]

As Olly said in that thread, the editor is not made by us and we have no involvement with it, especially now there are being charges made to use the software. Cheers.

[Coop]

0-21 and 18-21, or whatever it is, is confusing and caused me problems in Europe. 0-21 only applies to England, or should do, does it not?

[littletoad]

As Olly said in that thread, the editor is not made by us and we have no involvement with it, especially now there are being charges made to use the software. Cheers.

Seriously? The issue isnt FMRTE. Its the 0-21 & 15-21 rule that SI have included that doesnt happen IRL which still hasnt been fixed.

An SI employee is saying use a third party program (which you dont support, and wont help fix anybodies game after using it) to fix a fault that you have created. So you either leave the problem and ruin your long term game. Or you can use SI's advice and use a 3rd party program to fix your problem, but you wont then offer support if a problem occurs with that persons game.

TBH I dont see how you havent come across this problem before, after all the threads made about it.

[voidex]

This is getting ridiculous. If this is the same bug that existed in 11.3, and it has not been resolved in 12.1, SI should sack whoever involved in the coding of this part of the game module. *Aggressive Tone *

[The Raconteur]

I have had some troubles with this... situation in both 2011 and 2012 - my limited evidence (ie my own playing) tells me that the two categories of home-grown players apply to different competitions. One being the Premier League, the other being European competitions.

I have found that in order for a player to qualify as home-grown for European competitions, they need to be at your club for three years BEFORE their 21st birthday. In other words, you CANNOT sign Argentinian or Brazilian (or ANY nation that doesn't allow under-18 players to leave). Yes, it was a very frustrating and even infuriating realisation to come to, but this was an understanding I came to through heavy experience...

[jayahr]

I'm not exactly sure about the home-grown issue raised in the OP.

If a player is classified as HG in the Prem, but not in Europe, then this should definitely be looked at as the according rules are the same for both competitions iirc.

However, the whole 0-21 and 15-21 thing seems to be connected to a misunderstanding of the rules, so I thought I'd shed some light on how the rules are irl (and in FM afaik):

For players to be HG, they have to be trained at a club/in a nation for three full years between the ages of 15 and 21. Ages before don't count and it ends on the 21st birthday. Thus, anybody signed at the age of 18, will never qualify.
The distinction between HG club and HG nation is whether a player has been at the club or with another club in the same nation for the respective period.
Thus, if you sign a player at the age of 17, he should take 3 years to become a HG player for your club. If he has been signed from another club in the same nation, he will get the HG nation status first. FM tells you which status the players have and which one they will gain at what point.

hth

[RBKalle]

Sanogo: 01-27-1993
Romario: 12-18-1993

There lies the issue, as explained by Biggus... the game has the wrong criteria to calculate the HG status for European Competitions, therefore it treated Sanogo as if he was born in 1992...


It's truly disappointing to see a bug that had been there in 11.3 (and previous 11.x versions too?) and reported several times not fixed...

Even more annoying to see SI are acting all surprised and ask for a savegame to "investigate" a problem that has been there for at least one year, reported over and over again... and the best fix has been "use FMRTE but we don't want to know a thing about it".

[pigfacemonkeyman]

0-21 and 18-21, or whatever it is, is confusing and caused me problems in Europe. 0-21 only applies to England, or should do, does it not?

0-21 does not exist in the regulations that I've read, it is an invention of SI. See rules below.

[Neil Brock]

Seriously? The issue isnt FMRTE. Its the 0-21 & 15-21 rule that SI have included that doesnt happen IRL which still hasnt been fixed.An SI employee is saying use a third party program (which you dont support, and wont help fix anybodies game after using it) to fix a fault that you have created. So you either leave the problem and ruin your long term game. Or you can use SI's advice and use a 3rd party program to fix your problem, but you wont then offer support if a problem occurs with that persons game.TBH I dont see how you havent come across this problem before, after all the threads made about it.

Because generally I help out with technical issues and running the forums, there is a separate team for comps and rule groups. If I knew about every single tiny area of the game I'd have no space in my brain left to know how to type! At no point have we said we won't fix it - it's an issue the relevant people are aware of and we're looking into it. A workaround has been suggested in that thread for the meantime but yes, we're fully aware that isn't an ideal solution. As always with registrations and competitions there are often a number of changes in real life each season, we strive to implement these correctly but as you can imagine it's not always as easy as it would perhaps appear from the outside. I can understand the frustration felt with this issue but we appreciate your patience in this matter.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I have had some troubles with this... situation in both 2011 and 2012 - my limited evidence (ie my own playing) tells me that the two categories of home-grown players apply to different competitions. One being the Premier League, the other being European competitions.

I have found that in order for a player to qualify as home-grown for European competitions, they need to be at your club for three years BEFORE their 21st birthday. In other words, you CANNOT sign Argentinian or Brazilian (or ANY nation that doesn't allow under-18 players to leave). Yes, it was a very frustrating and even infuriating realisation to come to, but this was an understanding I came to through heavy experience...

You can, see rules below.

I'm not exactly sure about the home-grown issue raised in the OP.

If a player is classified as HG in the Prem, but not in Europe, then this should definitely be looked at as the according rules are the same for both competitions iirc.

However, the whole 0-21 and 15-21 thing seems to be connected to a misunderstanding of the rules, so I thought I'd shed some light on how the rules are irl (and in FM afaik):

For players to be HG, they have to be trained at a club/in a nation for three full years between the ages of 15 and 21. Ages before don't count and it ends on the 21st birthday. Thus, anybody signed at the age of 18, will never qualify.
The distinction between HG club and HG nation is whether a player has been at the club or with another club in the same nation for the respective period.
Thus, if you sign a player at the age of 17, he should take 3 years to become a HG player for your club. If he has been signed from another club in the same nation, he will get the HG nation status first. FM tells you which status the players have and which one they will gain at what point.

hth

There are different requirements for EPL and Europe, see rules below.


These are the rules:-

They should count as HG, the problem seems to be this strange "0-21". This does not appear in the regulations and appears to be an invention of SI, I have asked in other threads about this but have had no official clarification. Going by the info. you have provided, Verratti and Sanogo are covered by 18.10 below.

So, (once more):-


Regulations of the UEFA Champions League 2011/12 Regulations

Player Eligibility
Article 18
General provisions

18.08 No club may have more than 25 players on List A during the season. As a
minimum, eight places are reserved exclusively for “locally trained players”
and no club may have more than four “association-trained players” listed on
these eight places on List A. List A must specify at least eight players who
qualify as being “locally trained”, as well as whether they are “club-trained” or
“association-trained”. The possible combinations that enable clubs to comply
with the List A requirements are set out in Annex VIII.

18.09 A “locally trained player” is either a “club-trained player” or an “association-trained
player”.

18.10 A “club-trained player” is a player who, between the age of 15 (or the start of
the season during which he turns 15) and 21 (or the end of the season during
which he turns 21), and irrespective of his nationality and age, has been
registered with his current club for a period, continuous or not, of three entire
seasons (i.e. a period starting with the first official match of the relevant
national championship and ending with the last official match of that relevant
national championship) or of 36 months.

18.11 An “association-trained player” is a player who, between the age of 15 (or the
start of the season during which the player turns 15) and 21 (or the end of
the season during which the player turns 21), and irrespective of his
nationality and age, has been registered with a club or with other clubs
affiliated to the same association as that of his current club for a period,
continuous or not, of three entire seasons or of 36 months.

As you can see both types of "locally trained" players achieve this status between the ages 15-21.

So what is this 0-21, SI?

(quote is Post #15, this thread http://community.sigames.com/showthr...r-status-issue )

[Benfran]

If you feel this is an issue please post it in the Bugs Forum and upload a save game example and we'll take a look. And please don't use the word 'pathetic' to describe issues with the game - it really is incredibly disrespectful. Thanks.

Pathetic is not an insult...but anyway. I see you already took care of the title.

I said i find it pathetic because SI hasnt still explained what the difference between the 2 types of home grown is....instead of explaining or at least saying they will fis it (apparently this bug has been going on since fm11), they just suggest us to use a third party software.
The problem is even if i want to use FMRTE, i can't because im on a mac, and there's no way to downgrade to 12.0.4 with steam. Please correct me if im wrong but mac's fmrte currently only supports 12.0.4.

So i've been basing my whole game in training young talents, for 3 seasons i've been watching the homegrown menu and seeing that some day he will be trained at club....but when that day arrives there are 2 types of homegrown and i cant register half of my HG players.

PLEASE SI, just tell us what 0-21 and 15-21 is, or please just be humble enough to admit its a massive bug and you're looking into it.

[Benfran]

I have had some troubles with this... situation in both 2011 and 2012 - my limited evidence (ie my own playing) tells me that the two categories of home-grown players apply to different competitions. One being the Premier League, the other being European competitions.

I have found that in order for a player to qualify as home-grown for European competitions, they need to be at your club for three years BEFORE their 21st birthday. In other words, you CANNOT sign Argentinian or Brazilian (or ANY nation that doesn't allow under-18 players to leave). Yes, it was a very frustrating and even infuriating realisation to come to, but this was an understanding I came to through heavy experience...

Dont think so. Please read my second first and second post in this thread.
I bought Sanogo and Romario, both were 18.
Romario is the one that can be registered everywhere, while sanogo cant.
So its not about being already 18, since the brazilian player (romario) came in august 11, when he became 18, and has the 15-21 status, and is currently in my champions league squad, being registered.

Sanogo came a month earlier, with thesame age. He can be registered as HG in premier league, but cant in CL.

[Benfran]

Pigfacemonkeyman puts is very clear....following the rules there shouldn't be a 0-21 category.

But even if there had to be that category, for god knows what reason, the only thing im asking SI is to make it visible in the game.

I mean, in the squad, on the homegrown status view, for 3 years i just saw that those players will in 2014 be considered as Trained by the club. It never says if he will be a 0-21 or a 15-21.
If it did say that i would have probably sold sanogo right away and focus mostly on young talents that have the 15-21.
That's the most frustrating issue for me.....not knowing is your efforts will be worthy or worthless !!

[John-t]

I had similar issues in FM11 which I put in the correct forum, I can't believe this still hasn't been fixed it is ruining the game, I want to start a career game with FM12 but currently see no point - telling people to use FMRTE isn't good enough.

What would be really helpful is if SI could clearly lay out how they have coded the rules so at least people know what they are aiming for even if SI have coded the rules in incorrectly.

Is it right for example as stated above by someone that 0-21 means a player from your clubs youth system from birth? I thought that just meant an player trained native to the country of the desired club for 3 years before 21. I thought 15-21 were for player's who had come through youth systems.

It would perhaps be a good idea if people with this issue could keep this thread bumped in the hope of getting the issue noticed by SI and some genuine clarification is to the rules themselves within the game and SI's progress towards a genuine fix, will it be in 12.2 for example or do they still not understand the issue, there is no harm in admitting this at least people know where they stand.

Keep on reporting this in the bug forums also people, surely this bug waltz its way into FM13 also but at the moment it looks more than possible.

All my recent posts have been on this issue as it totally destroyed my FM11 game, I hope SI don't think people are attacking them it's nothing to do with that, it's simply a massive problem that shows no signs of going away or being recognized.

[Neil Brock]

I'll try and get someone to clarify this but please bear in mind the office is closed and anyone who replies is doing it within their own holiday time so don't expect an instant reply. Cheers.

[John-t]

Thanks Neil, we do appreciate it.

[Matt123]

I don't know if this is true or not but I bought a 18 or 18 y/o player in the summer and he's ineligable to play in the CL I mean it's probably right as he hasn't been with my team for 3yrs I just didn't think U21s had to be registered it's not really a big deal as he probably won't play much anyway

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I don't know if this is true or not but I bought a 18 or 18 y/o player in the summer and he's ineligable to play in the CL I mean it's probably right as he hasn't been with my team for 3yrs I just didn't think U21s had to be registered it's not really a big deal as he probably won't play much anyway

There is this new rule:-

18.17 A player may be registered on List B if he is born on or after 1 January 1990
and has been eligible to play for the club concerned for any uninterrupted
period of two years since his 15th birthday by the time he is registered with
UEFA. Players aged 16 may be registered on List B if they have been
registered with the participating club for the previous two years without
interruption.

AS far as I am aware SI do not use the "B List" part of this regulation.

[Stefanius]

Why is this so needlessly complicated UEFA??? Just started my first german save in a while and just remembered why I liked the German league to begin with. Registration for the german league, 99 players max. Period. I likes, altough 99 seems a bit exessive. Those Champions league registration rules are just headscratchingly uncomprehensable.

[Olly Kenney]

As originally posted in the thread in the Bugs Forum, the issue with some players not gaining the 15-21 status correctly was unfortunately brought to our attention too late for any fix to be included in the latest update. It is something that we are aware of and are looking into. The issue only relates to players who turn 21 during the season where they are due to gain the 15-21 HG status, and is a different issue to the one that was present in FM11.

There are two different HG status', 0-21 and 15-21, due to the differences in Squad Registration between domestic and UEFA competitions. Players who may be classed as HG for the English Premier Division will not always be classed as HG for the Champions League and so the 0-21 status indicates that for domestic competition the player is classed as HG but not for UEFA competitions. If a player has the 15-21 status then they will be classed as HG for both domestic and UEFA competitions.

[Barside]

A simple suggestion but how about changing the wording used to HG-Domestic & HG-Continental?

[Benfran]

As originally posted in the thread in the Bugs Forum, the issue with some players not gaining the 15-21 status correctly was unfortunately brought to our attention too late for any fix to be included in the latest update. It is something that we are aware of and are looking into. The issue only relates to players who turn 21 during the season where they are due to gain the 15-21 HG status, and is a different issue to the one that was present in FM11.

There are two different HG status', 0-21 and 15-21, due to the differences in Squad Registration between domestic and UEFA competitions. Players who may be classed as HG for the English Premier Division will not always be classed as HG for the Champions League and so the 0-21 status indicates that for domestic competition the player is classed as HG but not for UEFA competitions. If a player has the 15-21 status then they will be classed as HG for both domestic and UEFA competitions.

Thanks for the explanation Olly.

As Barside said, there should be a way to know if a player will be 15-21 or 0-21.
I hope we can really see a fix of this really annoying bug on the next update, but implementing a way to differenciate both types of HG is in my opinion equally crucial.
Maybe on the HG view mode, where we see on which day a player will be "trained by the club", you should add if he will be HG only for domestic cups or for all cups.

[BiggusD]

As originally posted in the thread in the Bugs Forum, the issue with some players not gaining the 15-21 status correctly was unfortunately brought to our attention too late for any fix to be included in the latest update. It is something that we are aware of and are looking into. The issue only relates to players who turn 21 during the season where they are due to gain the 15-21 HG status, and is a different issue to the one that was present in FM11.

There are two different HG status', 0-21 and 15-21, due to the differences in Squad Registration between domestic and UEFA competitions. Players who may be classed as HG for the English Premier Division will not always be classed as HG for the Champions League and so the 0-21 status indicates that for domestic competition the player is classed as HG but not for UEFA competitions. If a player has the 15-21 status then they will be classed as HG for both domestic and UEFA competitions.

How can a player who has been at the club his entire life not be classified as HG 15-21 by UEFA's rules?

That's not possible...

[Lord_Seifer]

There is this new rule:-

18.17 A player may be registered on List B if he is born on or after 1 January 1990
and has been eligible to play for the club concerned for any uninterrupted
period of two years since his 15th birthday by the time he is registered with
UEFA. Players aged 16 may be registered on List B if they have been
registered with the participating club for the previous two years without
interruption.

AS far as I am aware SI do not use the "B List" part of this regulation.

I think they just assume all your U21 players that meet the criteria are in that list, and save you some management

[singtelsux]

and this is not resolved yet in 12.1.1 ? This is not pathetic. this is incredible.

[bullybeef]

I can completely empathise with this 'home grown' issue. The game is difficult has it is, without digging out calendars to work out whether a player would be eligible as home grown in three years game time. But I also I understand how difficult it is to implement this within a game that everyone completely understands.


I found the old rule that a player had to be 17 or younger before you bought him, makes much more sense in a game environment and was simpler to understand (so if he was 17 and 364 days old when you bought him, he'd by home grown (club) regardless of his nationality when he turned 21.


That is unless maybe a scout report on a youth player could highlight whether he would be eligible as home grown (club) status before you actually purchase him would be ideal.

[Stuart Warren]

This issue was fixed in 12.2.0 guys (although I think it may be missing from the changelist - will chase up), but unfortunately due to the nature of it it can only be applied to new saves from then. If you're still seeing an issue in a new save, please let me know.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I can completely empathise with this 'home grown' issue. The game is difficult has it is, without digging out calendars to work out whether a player would be eligible as home grown in three years game time. But I also I understand how difficult it is to implement this within a game that everyone completely understands.


I found the old rule that a player had to be 17 or younger before you bought him, makes much more sense in a game environment and was simpler to understand (so if he was 17 and 364 days old when you bought him, he'd by home grown (club) regardless of his nationality when he turned 21.


That is unless maybe a scout report on a youth player could highlight whether he would be eligible as home grown (club) status before you actually purchase him would be ideal.

Then add a warning from your assman telling you how long a youngster can spend away from the club without losing HG status, when you set him as available for loan.