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Thread: Wonder why all the best regens come out of Brazil?

  1. #1
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    Exclamation Wonder why all the best regens come out of Brazil?

    Finally SI have included the youth quality in the editor. I just went through it quickly and explains why Brazil have absolute great regens all the time and the rest not so much. Also says something about how much SI value the Dutch and English compared to Spain, France, Italy and Germany. (Hint, Holland and to lesser extent England are far underrated IMO )

    They create regens based on a number ranging from 0-200, 0 being terrible and 200 being Lionel Messi every year. Highlight the spoiler for the most common and/or surprising nations. You can check other nations in the editor.

    spoiler:

    Brazil -185
    Argentina -167
    Mexico -160
    Germany -160
    Spain -159
    France - 158
    Russia -155
    Turkey -151
    Italy -151
    Egypt -145
    Nigeria -141
    England -139
    USA -138
    Holland -127
    Colombia -121
    China -121
    Japan -117
    Portugal -117
    Iran -107
    Ivory Coast -107
    Algeria -102
    Croatia -98
    Greece -95
    Czech Republic -95
    Australia -90
    Uruguay -90
    Sweden -88
    Poland -88
    Belgium -85
    Ireland -83
    Canada -54
    San Marino -29


    Some really strange surprises for me. Some nations are ranked way higher or lower than you would imagine.
    IMO Holland is ranked way too low in comparison to other teams. If you look at the Dutch footballing history it has achieved far more for the quality of regens it gets.

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    do these change or are they fixed?

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    Don't know. I'm not from SI but maybe someone can tell?

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    Bizarre numbers, the only explanation I can think of is that some are higher or lower to offset other factors that influence the quality of regens. For example, Holland has a superb youth academy in Ajax, hence it is probably set a little lower to avoid Ajax coming up with new Ronaldos and Messis every season. Likewise, there's a few other factors like how developed the nation is, the nation's size, and how important football is for the nation.

    I'm pretty certain "youth quality" is a fixed factor not dynamic, unfortunately.

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    Does anyone really have a problem with all the best regens coming out of Brazil?

    Last time I checked Brazil were alright at football.

    Thats said, I was a bit dissappointed in my Wigan file in fm11 when I had the worlds best 40-50 players, and all bar 1 were from Brazil or Argentina (Nigerian was the other)

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    Looking a bit closer it really has to be about offsetting youth academies in the country, Holland, Portugal and Ivory Coast seem very low but that's probably to stop Ajax, Sporting and ASEC Mimosas from over-flooding the world with talents; England have plenty of good facilities with some of the most advanced clubs in the world yet struggle to generate many top stars; Brazil are probably a touch over-rated but while they do have big clubs they really do come up with talents from every corner in the country.

    It's great that this field is now editable, could make for some interesting experiences over at the CSE forum.

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    Yeah but now Brazil is overflooding the world with talents. I get so many high PA regens from Brazil it's not even realistic anymore. Besides, this would mean that if you have a different club in Holland/Portugal and you max out their youth recruitment and such you'd produce a 180+ every 3-4 years. Which in my experience isn't really the case.

    Also I wonder how these numbers work, or at least how regens are created. Are they created for a nation and then distributed over the clubs according to their recruitment OR are they individually per club created with that number being a factor in the equation?

    EDIT: also, everybody acknowledges the Barca youth recruitment as the best of the world atm, yet Spain has a far higher rating than Holland even though Ajax produces great talents aswell. Maybe not up to a standard of Barca but I find the gap is still too big.
    Last edited by DMuusers; 21-12-2011 at 11:30.

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    This is certainly strange. Not Brazil having the best, but countries like Egypt, Nigeria, Mexico, Turkey, Russia and USA rated higher than Holland or England. Maybe someone can also tell me which Chinese talents are better than the better ones from Portugal. Or Algeria having a much higher rating than Sweden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMuusers View Post
    Yeah but now Brazil is overflooding the world with talents. I get so many high PA regens from Brazil it's not even realistic anymore. Besides, this would mean that if you have a different club in Holland/Portugal and you max out their youth recruitment and such you'd produce a 180+ every 3-4 years. Which in my experience isn't really the case.
    My guess is that doesn't happen exactly because the national youth quality is set low. It would be set to prevent that. Because it'd be unrealistic: whilst Ajax, Sporting and ASEC are superb, they don't really produce a Van Basten, C. Ronaldo or Drogba every 3-4 years.

    Also I wonder how these numbers work, or at least how regens are created. Are they created for a nation and then distributed over the clubs according to their recruitment OR are they individually per club created with that number being a factor in the equation?
    I suspect it's the second hence why these numbers look weird.

    I'm not saying the generation of regens are well balanced, I don't even have FM12 yet to have an opinion on it, just presenting a theory for explaining the numbers. If 90% of the world's best players are coming from Brazil and Argentina then the number needs tweaking.

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    I think people have hit the nail on the head with the youth facility qualities, and how there numbers have to off-set that.

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    It obviously takes the countries' populations into account - look at the top countries on the list. All with big populations. Even useless China is fairly high because of their massive population.

    Tiny Holland is doing well to even be near those bigger countries. Just like in real life.

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    I'm sorry, but Holland finished 2nd last World Cup. You can't say that nations like Mexico, Egypt, USA or Nigeria have performed better than Holland in the history of football or that those countries have always performed under par. Especially if you look at the population of those countries. Holland has 16M inhabitants where Egypt has 83M, Mexico 112M and the USA 310M and yet they've produced far more world class players than those nations combined.
    So yes maybe then the Dutch have always overperformed for the amount of inhabitants but that should then also mean the number should be higher considering we play among the best. It only shows that the Dutch somehow produce more talents than that number reflects.

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    Someone try edit it as holland have about 1 good player a year produced in general (look at our generation, Robben, Van der vaart, robin van persie, stekelenbuurg, sneijder etc)

    Brazil probably produce the best, but most tempermental regens equally. maybe tweak that number down a bit and england a little higher as we do produce good players but i barely seen that (7 years in, on 3 stars being produced in my 170 ca team, which is about 150-160)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoweel View Post
    It obviously takes the countries' populations into account - look at the top countries on the list. All with big populations. Even useless China is fairly high because of their massive population.

    Tiny Holland is doing well to even be near those bigger countries. Just like in real life.
    Good point, I don't think the country populations are set separately in any editable attribute. It's probably to compensate for the sheer number of players generated, ie Holland will have far, far more reputable clubs in the database than China which means they'll generate far more players as well. Obviously that's true in real life as well, Holland has a bigger pool of players and much better talents, but if country size wasn't taken into consideration anywhere, the dutch advantage would be even more enormous and disproportionate.

    Again I'm not saying it's fine-tuned well, just trying to find out which factors need to be considered for this number. It's not really "youth quality" per se, it's more like "youth quality * population / youth academies quality" (and maybe some other factors in the equation), in other words an abstract number that means little but necessary for them to mess with until the regens seem good enough for them.
    Last edited by noikeee; 21-12-2011 at 14:22.

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    definitely need to tone down Mexico - 4 regens with potential above 180 in 4 seasons of my game and I'm not even running the league in full detail. That's 4 more Mexicans of that quality than have ever emerged in real life. Anyone else want to look at a save and see whether Mexico is the centre of world talent?

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    If this is static then this is still terrible by SI. Dynamic League Reputation is still hampered by a large number of constant pegging factors.

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    About Holland, they really don't produce major talents any more. They have 2 TOP class players (Robben and Sneider) in the last 10 years?

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    DMuusers, I can't get the editor to work. Out of curiosity, what is the value for Hungary?

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    China and Japan above Portugal and Sweden? I dunno about you but I cannot name any chinese or japanese players in world football right now and I can name a few portugal and sweden players.

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    That may be because the football media in Europe pay little attention to the J-League.

    However, they've rated Australia pathetically poor... As always by SI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Some Guy! View Post
    DMuusers, I can't get the editor to work. Out of curiosity, what is the value for Hungary?
    spoiler:
    Hungary -68


    There you go.

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    I agree with Holland being underrated. Their potential is actually quite low, due to the limited number of people living there, but they exceed it very regularly.

    On the other hand I find Egypt well overrated. Yes, they usually have one of the best teams in Africa, but I'm yet to see an Egyptian player even bordering world class in real life. Mido can be said to have had a certain degree of international quality for a short while, but other than that, I remember nothing which would justify being ranked among the top 10 youth player producing countries in the world.

    Can you edit these values via the editor?

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    Yes you can edit them. Unfortunately it's too late for my savegame which I'm not quitting, but at least now we can discuss it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMuusers View Post
    spoiler:
    Hungary -68


    There you go.
    spoiler:
    Oh dear... Terrible work there by SI, if its static that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayahr View Post
    Can you edit these values via the editor?
    Even if you can, doing so would be unwise without knowing what other factors affect the rating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalGenius View Post
    Even if you can, doing so would be unwise without knowing what other factors affect the rating.
    Fair enough, but at least everybody has the option to influence the equation at least to some extent to his liking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSH View Post
    About Holland, they really don't produce major talents any more. They have 2 TOP class players (Robben and Sneider) in the last 10 years?
    What about Van Persie?

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    Quote Originally Posted by faraowww View Post
    What about Van Persie?
    Agreed.

    And van der Vaart, and van Bommel, and Huntelaar, and van Nistelrooy and van der Sar... The same is true for the generation before with the likes of Bergkamp, Overmars, Davids and so on.
    There's also a lot of more players of very reasonable international quality, like Heitinga, Mathijsen, Vennegoor of Hesselink, Elia, Affelay and so on.

    That's simply an amazing and astonishing outcome for a population of a meagre 17 million.

    The question is though whether the ratings have to be seen against the population or whether they should reflect an overall likelihood of great players coming from a nation which takes population limitations into account already. In that latter case, Holland would probably be only very slightly underrated imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSH View Post
    About Holland, they really don't produce major talents any more. They have 2 TOP class players (Robben and Sneider) in the last 10 years?
    Dennis Bergkampnis a god :mad:

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    Why does SI love Mexico so much? So many Mexican players on previous games have had huge potential, yet not a single one of them has gotten anywhere near to it.

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    I'm currently ending my 4th season, and in my game there are already 12 players having 190+ PA (3 from africa), and 3 players having 199 PA (4 with messi), only one nation loaded. Unrealistic?
    Last edited by craken; 23-12-2011 at 16:28.

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    Haven't bothered with FM12 because of the Steam bollox, but does it still suffer from the same as all the other FM's in that Scotland churn out 1-2 world class regens per season and the National team generally achieves away above anything it ever has historically within 5-10 years of starting a new game?

    I made similar comments to the OP in threads about FM10, FM09 etc. It's just ridiculous how often nations like Scotland produce top quality players in FM in comparison to real life nations with a tradition of producing good young players. I remember in FM10 looking at a Scotland side in around 2020 which contained 5 or 6 regens who had developed into world class players, yet nations like Holland, Denmark, Uruguay, Chile etc hadn't even produced one youngster of similar quality in that time. This wasn't a one-off freak game either, it used to occur in every new game I started, and across more than one version of FM too. It's a nonsense, always has been, and seems to be very heavily slanted to produce unrealistic results for leagues which are traditionally quite popular amongst FM players, regardless and irrespective of the fact the real life equivalent is complete tripe. Hello SPL.
    Last edited by Boltman; 23-12-2011 at 16:45.

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    I'm also curious whether these ratings are dynamical. Will they improve like the league reputations?

    If Iceland in fifty years in-game-time would end up having the most dominant competition in the world and the majority of their teams have high quality youth academies, would that improve this rating -- the rating of the regens -- too?

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    How many teams in Brazil have 20 training and 20 youth development facilities?

    In England, Championship and League One sides can have good (ie probably 12+) youth development and training facilities. The system for youth players is getting more refined, but an arbitary number has to cover numerous leagues and teams. England each year will have a fair few teams with 16+ for facilities producing youth players, meanwhilst Nigeria and the US won't have anywhere near as many. In previous years the home nations have faired exceptionally well, because Scottish and Welsh players could also come through at English clubs.

    There is also the number of sources to consider, the lower down the leagues you go the less chance for a wonderkid to emerge, but each club has its own chances determined by its own facilities. In England you have over 100 clubs producing youngsters outside of the top flight, that means every season there is actually a considerable chance one of these lesser clubs will get someone good. Over a 5 year, and 10 year period these odds increase dramatically. Take this to some other leagues, and you don't have 6 leagues beneath the top flight churning out youngsters.

    Some nations will only have 10 - 15 teams producing youngsters each year. It would take these nations 10 - 15 years to produce one seasons worth of youth intakes for the entire English set-up.

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    Well, I just experimented with this a little and the first thing I noticed is that editing the youth rating for several nations breaks the allocation of media sources.

    So, for example, at the start of the game in the English Premier League, I was receiving news items from a Kansas City, Missouri local culture magazine about Aston Villa players to watch.

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    I wish that England was higher up the list. I love trying to find the best English players (regens)

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hand of God View Post
    Well, I just experimented with this a little and the first thing I noticed is that editing the youth rating for several nations breaks the allocation of media sources.

    So, for example, at the start of the game in the English Premier League, I was receiving news items from a Kansas City, Missouri local culture magazine about Aston Villa players to watch.
    Did you do this with other edited files loaded? I had this same problem when I was using quite a few different, heavily edited database changes. If not, give it a go as a standalone file.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rich_barnes View Post
    I cannot name any japanese players in world football right now
    Keisuke Honda? Shinji Kagawa?

    I think the high populations of those countries must count for something.

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    To see the numbers the OP is referring to,

    1. Open the editor and load up the database
    2. Choose Nations
    3. List all the nations (do not type anyting and press enter -> "237 records found")
    4. Right-click over some column and choose "Insert column" -> Youth rating.

    That way you can see Professionalism, Sportsmanship etc.

    Seems like Holland and Germany produce some of the most balanced guys on average.

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    i edited the youth rating for a number of nations prior to starting my last game. i was surprised to find that lowering the ratings for brazil (who normally produce too many world class regens) didn't really reduce the number of top quality regens they had coming through by a significant amount. however, i increased the ratings for spain, portugal, holland, england and several other nations and they all do seem to be producing more great players, so clearly changing the ratings does have some effect.

    i also reduced the youth rating for argentina, mexico and turkey, which has led to them all producing fewer top regens - however, the latter two are still producing more excellent players than they should be. for instance, i reduced turkey's rating to 105, yet in 2026 the majority of their first team play for the top teams in spain, england, italy etc.

    it's very difficult to get the balance right, especially as different people will have different combinations of leagues, players loaded, etc for their games. however, ideally si should probably reduce the frequency of top regens for brazil, mexico, turkey, argentina, egypt, algeria and saudi arabia, as they seem to be the nations who get too many top regens.

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    I have to laugh at Bosnia having a rating of '73'. Do SI not watch real football? They have reached two play-off qualifying rounds in a row and have some really good players - Begovic, Dzeko and Miralem Pjanic (30 caps at 21 and plays for Roma) to name a few.

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    id like to see the potential for a messi-like freak coming from all nations

    whats the point in scouting smaller nations if we know they are never going to produce quality regens?

    sure, tweak the code so that the best players are more likely to come from certain nations, but they should definitely allow for the odd freak to come out of every single country..

    have i read this wrong or is it basically impossible for a 200PA player to come out of england?

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    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    have i read this wrong or is it basically impossible for a 200PA player to come out of england?
    You've read it wrong. FM 10 i downloaded fmscout specifically to check the CA/PA of one player of mine (English AMC) It was 198/198 at the time, so a 200PA player is possible. The same game had a 196 PA Honduran Lwb.

    I would also agree with England's score - mainly due to the fact English players are A) Generally over-rated and B) Most players play either in (or with) a fair few English leagues loaded, if that number was higher there would be too many good English players coming through.

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    I think one of the big questions in this is if this values are dynamic or static.

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    I did a little editing to make the values more life like. I think the starting values are very odd for some countries.

    Here is the editor file I am using until it gets officially fixed.

    Nations Youth Rating Fix file

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    1. Just remember that SI is currently looking into an issue with non-playable leagues/countries producing too many high-PA players, so this may be throwing your results off.
    2. It's a running joke among US players that Mexico is way overrated in the game, and has been for years. One person did a study last year (if I recall correctly) that showed Mexico was producing a higher number of quality players than England!
    3. In 2 years of the MLS draft, I've had a 180PA Canadian newgen (lowered to 150) and a 183 US newgen (lowered to 153) along with a 154 Mexican and 147 Nigerian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMuusers View Post
    Finally SI have included the youth quality in the editor. I just went through it quickly and explains why Brazil have absolute great regens all the time and the rest not so much. Also says something about how much SI value the Dutch and English compared to Spain, France, Italy and Germany. (Hint, Holland and to lesser extent England are far underrated IMO )

    They create regens based on a number ranging from 0-200, 0 being terrible and 200 being Lionel Messi every year. Highlight the spoiler for the most common and/or surprising nations. You can check other nations in the editor.

    spoiler:

    Brazil -185
    Argentina -167
    Mexico -160
    Germany -160
    Spain -159
    France - 158
    Russia -155
    Turkey -151
    Italy -151
    Egypt -145
    Nigeria -141
    England -139
    USA -138
    Holland -127
    Colombia -121
    China -121
    Japan -117
    Portugal -117
    Iran -107
    Ivory Coast -107
    Algeria -102
    Croatia -98
    Greece -95
    Czech Republic -95
    Australia -90
    Uruguay -90
    Sweden -88
    Poland -88
    Belgium -85
    Ireland -83
    Canada -54
    San Marino -29


    Some really strange surprises for me. Some nations are ranked way higher or lower than you would imagine.
    IMO Holland is ranked way too low in comparison to other teams. If you look at the Dutch footballing history it has achieved far more for the quality of regens it gets.

    It's hard to explain how the system works, but that rating is just the country rating (based on factors like population, importance of football in the country and so on). There are ratings for the clubs as well, which also influence the amount of high PA newgens.

    You can see for example that while Brazil's newgen rating is high, Brazilian clubs don't have very high youth development ratings. A place like Holland, on the other hand, has a lower national newgen rating but the clubs youth ratings aren't low.

    China have high national newgen rating but the club's youth development ratings are very low, so they usually don't produce good newgens.


    The system and the ratings could be tweaked, and will be, but in general the system works as intended.



    Quote Originally Posted by looknohands View Post
    1. Just remember that SI is currently looking into an issue with non-playable leagues/countries producing too many high-PA players, so this may be throwing your results off.
    2. It's a running joke among US players that Mexico is way overrated in the game, and has been for years. One person did a study last year (if I recall correctly) that showed Mexico was producing a higher number of quality players than England!
    3. In 2 years of the MLS draft, I've had a 180PA Canadian newgen (lowered to 150) and a 183 US newgen (lowered to 153) along with a 154 Mexican and 147 Nigerian.
    While those CAs are too high, the US newgens are older than the ones from other countries, aren't they?

    So they have to have higher CAs or they will be useless in the draft thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by santy001 View Post
    How many teams in Brazil have 20 training and 20 youth development facilities?
    None.
    Last edited by PMLF; 10-01-2012 at 23:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hehehemann View Post
    I did a little editing to make the values more life like. I think the starting values are very odd for some countries.

    Here is the editor file I am using until it gets officially fixed.

    Nations Youth Rating Fix file
    Can someone reupload National_Youth_Regen_nubmers.xml because link broken?

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    MEXICO?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfg View Post
    MEXICO?
    Yes, Mexico Youth National Teams always go well classified in competitions. Now is different if youth players explode when are seniors.

  51. #51
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    I'm in 2019 now and there's loads of amazing newgens from Argentina and Brazil, some really good ones from Italy France and Spain, a couple of decent ones from Holland and the odd one from various other countries. But playing in England I cannot see anyone of that nationality who would get anywhere near my first team.

    I know England doesn't always produce world class talents and we have a tendency to over-hype players, but there is a serious lack of any talent coming through.

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    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    Well here's one. There are a couple of other regens in the English national team as well, but I wouldn't call them world class talents.

  53. #53
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    I have a 20 year old i have nurchured from the tender age of 15 after one of my scouts found this regen at Watford. He has a PA of 198!! I Have never seen this in a regen from England before so i`m very excited . He is only 20 and has played 35 games for England already in midfield.
    He loves the club, and me so all is good......for now
    Last edited by lil ole me; 15-02-2012 at 07:35.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazvanRat View Post
    definitely need to tone down Mexico - 4 regens with potential above 180 in 4 seasons of my game and I'm not even running the league in full detail. That's 4 more Mexicans of that quality than have ever emerged in real life. Anyone else want to look at a save and see whether Mexico is the centre of world talent?
    Same i was thinking the other day mexicans are taking over the world on my save, now i know why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMLF View Post
    It's hard to explain how the system works, but that rating is just the country rating (based on factors like population, importance of football in the country and so on). There are ratings for the clubs as well, which also influence the amount of high PA newgens.

    You can see for example that while Brazil's newgen rating is high, Brazilian clubs don't have very high youth development ratings. A place like Holland, on the other hand, has a lower national newgen rating but the clubs youth ratings aren't low.
    Interesting. As I recall (perhaps mistakenly), several Brazil clubs had maxed out youth ratings in 2011.

    Anyway, this is how I always assumed it worked:

    National Youth Rating (based on population size, quality of the general footballing culture) and Game Importance (importance of the sport in the country) determines the PA distribution of a nation's regens
    A Club's Youth Recruitment Rating and Reputation determine its likelihood of getting high-PA regens and the extent to which it will "compete" for high-PA regens outside its local region
    A Club's Youth Coaching (formerly "Youth Academy") determines the average starting CA of its regens
    A Club's Youth Facilities determines the quality of training for U18 players on youth contracts

    So basically, countries like the US and China will produce a massive number of high-PA regens based on population alone, but unless those players end up at European clubs, they will start out with low CA and training facilities that will hinder their development. Moreover, these high-PA regens will typically not be eligible for work permits.

    The Netherlands, on the other hand, won't produce many high-PA regens but their regens will start with higher CA overall and a better chance of reaching full potential.

    With that said, on a very large database, there still appears to be an overly high probability that clubs with worldwide youth recruitment will get these PA 170 American regens at their academy when, really, they should have basically zero chance of ever being discovered until they're too old to be developed into a truly world class player.
    Last edited by The Hand of God; 15-02-2012 at 13:02.

  56. #56
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    I find it's different with every save, and sometimes season-by-season. Sure, Brazil usually has a lot, but that's fairly true to life. The highest concentration of newgens on my current save (only 2014) is in Argentina. Can I sign any of them? No. Methinks I need a Belgian feeder club.

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