Youth team players on full time contracts can only do youth training?

[DS]

I remember this was a problem a few FMs ago, but in the last FM and maybe FM10 players on full time contracts in the youth team remained on full time training, but in my current FM12 game youth team players on full time contracts can only train on a youth schedule, unless moved to reserve/first team squad.

Is this a bug or a intentional change? If its a change, why?

[BiggusD]

It is an intentional change, and so is this patch's change towards a much stricter coach regime. You now how to comply to the exact coach setup (with GK, Fitness, Youth coach roles etc) and can't just hire general coaches. Together, these two changes means that the youth setup is actually more realistic, but it becomes much more difficult for youngsters to make the cut in the first team, since most reserve leagues either A) play too few matches to keep players match fit, or B) doesn't exist in the nation. The youngsters that are moved to the reserve team therefore needs to be good enough to get relatively regular first team appearances.

[BluebirdsCCFC]

I was surprised that they could only do youth training as well. I have a lot of under 18 players on full-time contracts, some of which I want to play in the Reserves and some in the U-18s, but I want them all to be doing full-time training.

On a similar point, I think there should be an option similar to first-team players being made available for the reserves. We should also be able to make them available for U-18 games, likewise players in the Reserve squad. An example of where I'd use it...

For the U-18s Youth Cup, I like to throw any of my eligible Reserve Team players into the U-18s to bolster their chances of going through, as many clubs do in real life. It seems silly for me to have to move them all physically to the U-18s for one match (and alter their training as they're now on youth schedules), then back to the Reserves after the match (and alter training again as they're back to full-time).

I guess the solution is to keep them in the U-18s and make them available for the reserve squad (can you even do this?), but then we're back on the original topic of why should full-time players have to be on youth schedules

[BiggusD]

Yes because of the changes, it is now necessary to be able to set reserve team players to play youth football.

[RBKalle]

I think it's a fair choice, for a change

Regardless of the contract status, if a player is with the youth team he'll train with the youth team/staff...

It was too easy signing promising 17yo players and having them on fulltime training while keeping them playing youth football where they were able to get fitness and experience and to score bucketload of goals.
Sure the quality of football wasn't great but 90 minutes every week were still better than the occasional cap during garbage time or in cups' early rounds.

With this new system we can't have our cake and eat it too anymore... hoarding youngsters will finally stop being such a profitable choice if we're forced to choose between good training-little football and poor training-more football.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I think it's a fair choice, for a change

Regardless of the contract status, if a player is with the youth team he'll train with the youth team/staff...

It was too easy signing promising 17yo players and having them on fulltime training while keeping them playing youth football where they were able to get fitness and experience and to score bucketload of goals.
Sure the quality of football wasn't great but 90 minutes every week were still better than the occasional cap during garbage time or in cups' early rounds.

With this new system we can't have our cake and eat it too anymore... hoarding youngsters will finally stop being such a profitable choice if we're forced to choose between good training-little football and poor training-more football.

So you agree with 16yo placed in first team getting full-time training?

[pigfacemonkeyman]

It is an intentional change, and so is this patch's change towards a much stricter coach regime. You now how to comply to the exact coach setup (with GK, Fitness, Youth coach roles etc) and can't just hire general coaches. Together, these two changes means that the youth setup is actually more realistic, but it becomes much more difficult for youngsters to make the cut in the first team, since most reserve leagues either A) play too few matches to keep players match fit, or B) doesn't exist in the nation. The youngsters that are moved to the reserve team therefore needs to be good enough to get relatively regular first team appearances.

I don't see it. Surely it's more realistic that the manager decides which coaches do what!

[Sikker]

So you agree with 16yo placed in first team getting full-time training?

I do. That's how it works on irl to my knowledge. If you move a 16 year old to the first team it means he will (should) be getting a share of first team appearances and playing regular for the reserves. He won't be getting any youth matches. If he is not good enough to even get reserve matches then he won't be getting the advantage of the extra/better training at the A/B team and he'll be better off training with the youth and getting youth matches.

[Sikker]

I don't see it. Surely it's more realistic that the manager decides which coaches do what!

Well, irl clubs do have youth and 1st team coaches. So I guess it's more realistic this way. Another way this could be fixed would be so any coach could only train either the 1st team or the youth team. I don't know which solution would be the more realistic, though...

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Well, irl clubs do have youth and 1st team coaches. So I guess it's more realistic this way. Another way this could be fixed would be so any coach could only train either the 1st team or the youth team. I don't know which solution would be the more realistic, though...

I think the manager is best placed to decide how many of each type they require.

[Neil Brock]

RBKalle has got this bang on to be honest.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I do. That's how it works on irl to my knowledge. If you move a 16 year old to the first team it means he will (should) be getting a share of first team appearances and playing regular for the reserves. He won't be getting any youth matches. If he is not good enough to even get reserve matches then he won't be getting the advantage of the extra/better training at the A/B team and he'll be better off training with the youth and getting youth matches.

Without an option to make youngsters in the first team available for youth matches, this is a poor development. With such rigid training FM cannot hope to represent real life training (if that is what they are trying to achieve with this), yes it makes sense to train with the players you are going to play with but there is no way to provide any extra training, strength and aerobic training for the more physically developed U18s for example.

[Coentrao]

Unless it's a country with very few reserve matches i don't understand the advantage of keeping them on the youth team.

They get a full time contract and start playing with the reserves of the other teams which have better players anyway so they get higher match experience, that's what i've been doing, if they are a good prospect and eligible for a pro contract, i give them a full time schedule and move them to reserves.

It's more annoying on the countries that don't have a reserve league going but now it's a lot faster to schedule friendlies for the reserve team anyway.

[RBKalle]

Without an option to make youngsters in the first team available for youth matches, this is a poor development. With such rigid training FM cannot hope to represent real life training (if that is what they are trying to achieve with this), yes it makes sense to train with the players you are going to play with but there is no way to provide any extra training, strength and aerobic training for the more physically developed U18s for example.

I'll concede you we might use a "make available for Youth Team" option, but on the other hand it'd just bring us back to square one, with Youth Prospects getting great training AND full-time football...
At least that situation (train with the pros, play with the amateurs) should have serious morale consequences after a while...

In real life there are two types of young players being part of the first team:

1) The Talented One who is being brought up to the senior squad and is part of the group, therefore training and playing with the big boys most of the time

2) The Filler who is temporarily promoted during injury/form crisis or for the occasional throwaway run-in. That can happen on short notice, so he still trains with the Youth Team and is still regarded as part of the youth setup.

In FM terms that means you'll have to carefully pick those you want to develop properly and those who aren't really that good or deserving... Finally we'll be done with our U19 squad being filled with expensive and promising youth who are getting First Team training while scoring 10 goals per game against hopeless amateurs.

You can still do that, but rightfully one season of youth football won't work as well as it used to be.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I'll concede you we might use a "make available for Youth Team" option, but on the other hand it'd just bring us back to square one, with Youth Prospects getting great training AND full-time football...
At least that situation (train with the pros, play with the amateurs) should have serious morale consequences after a while...

In real life there are two types of young players being part of the first team:

1) The Talented One who is being brought up to the senior squad and is part of the group, therefore training and playing with the big boys most of the time

2) The Filler who is temporarily promoted during injury/form crisis or for the occasional throwaway run-in. That can happen on short notice, so he still trains with the Youth Team and is still regarded as part of the youth setup.

In FM terms that means you'll have to carefully pick those you want to develop properly and those who aren't really that good or deserving... Finally we'll be done with our U19 squad being filled with expensive and promising youth who are getting First Team training while scoring 10 goals per game against hopeless amateurs.
You can still do that, but rightfully one season of youth football won't work as well as it used to be.

If you need restrictions placed on you to make you play the game in a way that you think it should be played, then good luck to you, I prefer to exercise self-control.

[RBKalle]

If you need restrictions placed on you to make you play the game in a way that you think it should be played, then good luck to you, I prefer to exercise self-control.

It's not a restriction, it's a fairer representation of real life dynamics and a mere matter of logic...

[pigfacemonkeyman]

It's not a restriction, it's a fairer representation of real life dynamics and a mere matter of logic...

At the moment (FM10) I have the option of "Full-Time Schedules" and "Youth Schedules" - ignoring who can be placed on what, from where for a moment - I believe these are "individual training schedules" as opposed to "first team schedules" and "youth team schedules", and I have to believe that "Youth" equates to part-time/less training and they are used for "younger players who are still physically developing" (manual).

So, in FM10, all players are deemed physically able to cope with "Full-Time Training" on turning 17, so the amount/intensity of the training is determined by the physical capabilities/age of the player, now it is determined by which squad he is in regardless of his physical status or age and to me that's wrong.

Have the titles of each type of training schedule been changed to reflect "a fairer representation of real life dynamics and a mere matter of logic"?

[Snoweel]

I'm happy with the new change.

In the past it was far too easy to hoard the best youth players in the game and still develop them without having to place them in the first team squad. It was very unrealistic.