Football Manager 12.1.1 update *OFFICIAL* Feedback Thread

[Äktsjon Männ]

I think it makes it much easier to follow player progression, and you spot players having a poor training period much earlier than with the previous system

A poor training period means sod all though. What matters is progression over a longer period of time. My problem with it is that it's harder to understand what aspects of their game are actually improving/regressing when the players constantly have an arrow next to every attribute. If I'm interested in their training performance I should be able to find it in their training page.

[michaelthestrange]

The arrows for attribute changes are pointing higher/lower and differ slightly in colour, as far as I observed, so there shouldn't be a problem spotting them.

[Äktsjon Männ]

The arrows for attribute changes are pointing higher/lower and differ slightly in colour, as far as I observed, so there shouldn't be a problem spotting them.

Well most of them look like this now. There are a couple of attributes there that actually have changed, most have not though. How am I supposed to know what's changed unless I've memorized every attribute of every player I have?

Short term training progress should be described on the training pages imo, 'show recent attribute changes' should do just that, indicate what's actually changed. Otherwise it's pretty close to being useless.

[PaulC]

The attributes are stored on a scale of 1-100, so some changes will not be noticeable on the 1-20 scale, hence what you are seeing.

[Äktsjon Männ]

The attributes are stored on a scale of 1-100, so some changes will not be noticeable on the 1-20 scale, hence what you are seeing.

Didn't see it before, don't want to see it now. Just like with the decimal player ratings you're showing me too much information. Too much information makes it harder to pin down the important parts.

Maybe something like this could be made optional in a future version?

Edit: too much information is a poor choice of words. What I meant is that it's too precise. The difference between 15.1 and 15.3 isn't enough to warrant a shiny green arrow on my screen making things more difficult to follow

[Neil Brock]

Didn't see it before, don't want to see it now. Just like with the decimal player ratings you're showing me too much information. Too much information makes it harder to pin down the important parts.

Maybe something like this could be made optional in a future version?

Edit: too much information is a poor choice of words. What I meant is that it's too precise. The difference between 15.1 and 15.3 isn't enough to warrant a shiny green arrow on my screen making things more difficult to follow

But surely you'd want to know if it's an upward trend or a downward one?

[grep]

Hi,

I've been lurking for a while cause of the easiness issue. Now, after 2 months of no game for me, I see that a new patch surfaced.

To the hard core ones : thumb up or down ?

Thx in advance

[Barside]

I like the changes & find myself having to pay more attention when I play, it was too easy to spend half a season hitting continue as you steamrollered your way to success before 12.1.1 was released.

That said I have noticed an increased instance of players not marking up correctly at set-pieces which might be an effect of the changes made to the ME.

[themadsheep2001]

Hi,

I've been lurking for a while cause of the easiness issue. Now, after 2 months of no game for me, I see that a new patch surfaced.

To the hard core ones : thumb up or down ?

Thx in advance

hang on, are you say that after all your campaigning and asking for the patch, you havent actually played it?

[grep]

hang on, are you say that after all your campaigning and asking for the patch, you havent actually played it?

Yes of course because the campaign was aimed to balance the game that , IMO, was too easy and for me no more a challenge so I quit playing it 2 months ago.

Now that a new patch has surfaced I hope I can go on from where I left 2 months ago.

What's weird with that ? The campaign was a desperate cry to have a playable FM, at least for me.

[BiggusD]

Yes of course because the campaign was aimed to balance the game that , IMO, was too easy and for me no more a challenge so I quit playing it 2 months ago.

Now that a new patch has surfaced I hope I can go on from where I left 2 months ago.

What's weird with that ? The campaign was a desperate cry to have a playable FM, at least for me.

The game is more of a challenge now. Less form-based. It has improved. There is an issue (imo) with the balance in terms of lack of morale & manager reputation vs nervousness in the ME.

[macdyne73]

My 2 cents. I too was caught with my pants down with the morale rebalancing thing. I was actually thinking maybe I was doing something wrong! The knockon effects of the rebalancing is quite significant to the way the game needs to be approached.

However, it didn't take me that long to figure it out. It's mostly common sense really. As a whole, I like this new patch and because of it, I now have to pay more attention to what's going on before, during and after matches especially with regard to my interactions with media and players. No more zoning out once you hit the "green zone".

I have 2 save files running now and my Whitecaps game is the one where the effect was felt the most. As a ex-pro (as opposed to an ex-international) rep manager, I had quite a few problems with motivation, just like everyone here. Just for reference, my playing staff stopped doubting me once I had led them to win the NACL and instead of having to deal with nerves I now have to deal with lack of interest and complacency!

Overall, the patch made the game a bit more difficult but I will have to disagree with the "game is broken" allegations. It's unfortunate that some of us here feel that way but to be honest, that extra bit of difficulty now has refired my interest again. I enjoyed it before but now I really can't wait to go home and fire up my saves!

My tip for people who got caught unawares is as follows:-

- Redo your tactics if your results are VASTLY different from before. Didn't really affect me much since I start out using defaults and modify them through shouts. It seems that many users are experiencing a jarring difference with their setup, so I recommend going back to basics and starting from there.
- Take control of teamtalks. From my experience go easy on players during rough patches, even more so when playing strong opposition away, even MORE so when you rep is lower than your club/playing staff. LOOK AT THE ODDS. Your approach to your teamtalks should be based on this. Take everything in context, it's not so hard to do if you stop and think for a second. It's ok to praise a narrow loss against a strong opponent and to criticize a narrow win against a weak one. Team personality also needs to be taken into account.
- Stick it out. On some days, bad form is bad and there nothing to do but ride it out. The least a manager can do is not make things worse.

I feel sorry to read about all the guys/girls who have lost interest in the game due to the "problems" caused by the changes because I truly am enjoying it more than before. I hope things work out for them.

[grep]

The game is more of a challenge now. Less form-based. It has improved. There is an issue (imo) with the balance in terms of lack of morale & manager reputation vs nervousness in the ME.

Thanks a lot BiggusD, I still remember your precious support to the community when complaining about the easiness of FM.

That is a demonstration how skilled and valuable this community is, well done mate, many compliments for your precious posts.


Would you please very briefly enlighten me about the issue you mentioned elaborating it a bit more ? I am under the impression that the last pacth ( c'mon SI the last effort please ) will need again your input BiggusD and support.

Much appreciated

[PaulC]

Grep my best advice to you is just try it for yourself.

[grep]

Grep my best advice to you is just try it for yourself.

I will do that for sure Paul, really soon.

BTW thanks Paul C to have listened to the community in our crusade, SI is used to release excellent products also and above all for this reason and I am really proud of dealing with SI and its community.

[BiggusD]

Thanks a lot BiggusD, I still remember your precious support to the community when complaining about the easiness of FM.

That is a demonstration how skilled and valuable this community is, well done mate, many compliments for your precious posts.


Would you please very briefly enlighten me about the issue you mentioned elaborating it a bit more ? I am under the impression that the last pacth ( c'mon SI the last effort please ) will need again your input BiggusD and support.

Much appreciated

Well, with Bradford I was already in the Premier League when the patch came, so I was highly regarded by my staff. Now I am of Continental reputation while Bradford as a club is still by far the smallest club in PL (regardless of representing the country in the Euro Cup). Needless to say, I have no problems with motivation and respect. I am a huge underdog in most matches, win most matches anyway and as a result morale is good and everyone is happy.

With Roma, however, where I also started out on Automatic reputation, I got a Regional reputation from the beginning and even with the previous patch (1,5 seasons) I had problems motivating the squad. When the patch came I lost even more respect among my players, but did well despite of this - ended 2nd behind my friend managing Napoli. Then when the third season started, I have had huge problems with nervousness of unprecedented levels. Still winning, but many matches are really painful to watch,as my defenders are invariably hoofing the ball wildly into the stands regardless of passing options and pressure. The tactic luckily prevents huge chances against and creates huge chances for me - but I get the feeling that the entertainment value of the game has gone down because of the lack of beautiful football; the kind we got used to with players having great morale and motivation.

To be more specific; I think there is a lack of good attacking play now that superb morale is gone from the equation. The defending is also too nervous and panicky overall (this also counts for the AI).

Ok or Good morale and decent motivation should be enough to let good players play good football, but I see much less of it now. As such I understand the frustrations of those who interpret this as the patch taking away the fun of the game - but I think that the animations in the ME just doesn't show the best stuff when players are medium motivated. I don't think SI will be able to patch in more beautiful football for non-superb-morale, non-winning-streak situations.

Regarding reputation, there seems to be an unfortunate knock-on effect there as well. There's sort of a dead-lock if you start out with low reputation! If you do well the club's reputation will increase along with yours in an apparent dead-even manner, so there is no way to gain respect among the players! If you don't do that well, the reputation of both you and the club will stay the same. Sadly, if you and the club has roughly equal reputation, the players won't respect you. I think that SI needs to tweak this so that the manager vs club vs player reputation thingy is less black-and-white. Only controversial players should openly oppose his manager to the extent we see professional, level-headed players do now, and after a few years with the same manager doing reasonably well the relationship should improve.

I also wonder about the sudden and severe nervousness settling in among my players. They are nervous at default, and lacking respect among the players they don't react at all to the team talks so there is nothing I can do about it. Why are my players suddenly nervous three seasons into the game, and how can I improve my reputation more than the club's?

[Tony7]

I have not had time to play football manager recently but fancied to finally start playing the game but for some reason it didn't load up so I turned steam to offline still nothing then uninstalled steam and football manager thought I would try to do a fresh installation but now when I try to install the game it says steam needs to be online to update set to online but I don't see how I can change it now. Can anybody help me please. I have a macbook if that makes any difference.

[milnerpoint]

Regarding reputation, there seems to be an unfortunate knock-on effect there as well. There's sort of a dead-lock if you start out with low reputation! If you do well the club's reputation will increase along with yours in an apparent dead-even manner, so there is no way to gain respect among the players! If you don't do that well, the reputation of both you and the club will stay the same. Sadly, if you and the club has roughly equal reputation, the players won't respect you.

Thats your assumption without anything to back it up, there is no way you will indefinitely be under respected because of rep, for a number of reasons. First off as you progress the club you will sign new players, most likely signing young players with a much lower rep than the club, so the rep rising on your current players is going to be immaterial in the long run as you will out pass them within a season or two, secondly players rep will only go up to a certain point depending on ability, very few players in the database will ever get to world class rep, and players will only get to continental rep if your doing well enough to get them up to that level, which in turn is going to increase your rep.

[BiggusD]

Thats your assumption without anything to back it up, there is no way you will indefinitely be under respected because of rep, for a number of reasons. First off as you progress the club you will sign new players, most likely signing young players with a much lower rep than the club, so the rep rising on your current players is going to be immaterial in the long run as you will out pass them within a season or two, secondly players rep will only go up to a certain point depending on ability, very few players in the database will ever get to world class rep, and players will only get to continental rep if your doing well enough to get them up to that level, which in turn is going to increase your rep.

Assumption/observation anyways. Yeah -eventually- I will overtake them given that I start to win stuff

But that may take 6-7 seasons or more. Having stayed at a club for three seasons doing better than expected in all of them, don't you think that the players would like me quite well internally even though externally the footballing world thinks I am a lowlife?

[grep]

What do you mean by " the super morale setting is gone from the equation " ?

Is super morale still achievable or it has been cut out ?

thx

[PaulC]

Of course its achievable, just not easy to sustain for as long.

[milnerpoint]

Assumption/observation anyways. Yeah -eventually- I will overtake them given that I start to win stuff

But that may take 6-7 seasons or more. Having stayed at a club for three seasons doing better than expected in all of them, don't you think that the players would like me quite well internally even though externally the footballing world thinks I am a lowlife?

Well you have already contradicted what you said in your first post,

Regarding reputation, there seems to be an unfortunate knock-on effect there as well. There's sort of a dead-lock if you start out with low reputation! If you do well the club's reputation will increase along with yours in an apparent dead-even manner, so there is no way to gain respect among the players! If you don't do that well, the reputation of both you and the club will stay the same

with,

I will overtake them given that I start to win stuff



Also in your post you dont say the players dont respect you in the third season, you say they play with a lot of nerves, which is a different problem to players not responding to your team talks. Players can like you and still play nervously, that is most likely caused by over achieving the year before and your players being under more pressure.

[Reccy]

But surely you'd want to know if it's an upward trend or a downward one?

I understand what you are saying, but on this scale no, between 15.1 and 15.3 is something which makes no difference, but between 15 and 14 yes, as it has changed significantly to warranty a noticable arrow, or something similar.

Not that i mind them, i just see them all the time now on most of me players.

[feeder09]

Hi all, have just came across a problem after managing Fortuna Dusseldorf from the German Second Division, to Europa League qualification in 6 seasons, all the German League fixtures (1st and 2nd divisions) have disappeared. All I am left with is German Cup and Europa League and any friendlies I arrange. Whats happened and can I fix this without losing this current save?

[milnerpoint]

I understand what you are saying, but on this scale no, between 15.1 and 15.3 is something which makes no difference, but between 15 and 14 yes, as it has changed significantly to warranty a noticable arrow, or something similar.

Not that i mind them, i just see them all the time now on most of me players.

well technically speaking going from 14-15 is going from 14.9 to 15.0 so that .1 of a difference is important at any point in the scale.

[BiggusD]

Well you have already contradicted what you said in your first post,

Regarding reputation, there seems to be an unfortunate knock-on effect there as well. There's sort of a dead-lock if you start out with low reputation! If you do well the club's reputation will increase along with yours in an apparent dead-even manner, so there is no way to gain respect among the players! If you don't do that well, the reputation of both you and the club will stay the same

with,

I will overtake them given that I start to win stuff



Also in your post you dont say the players dont respect you in the third season, you say they play with a lot of nerves, which is a different problem to players not responding to your team talks. Players can like you and still play nervously, that is most likely caused by over achieving the year before and your players being under more pressure.

I will overtake them when I turn World Class, well those who aren't world class themselves then. It seems to be necessary to have like 1000 points more reputation than the players to have them listen to you... So what happens when I have 9500 rep and so does the club? :s

... which brings me to the other thing you said: it is a problem precisely because they aren't responding when I tell them to relax

[grep]

Of course its achievable, just not easy to sustain for as long.

It sounds really interesting, I just have to try a season asap.

Thx

[Stuart Warren]

I have not had time to play football manager recently but fancied to finally start playing the game but for some reason it didn't load up so I turned steam to offline still nothing then uninstalled steam and football manager thought I would try to do a fresh installation but now when I try to install the game it says steam needs to be online to update set to online but I don't see how I can change it now. Can anybody help me please. I have a macbook if that makes any difference.

Hi Tony - could you create a thread in the Technical Issues forum please. One of our Mac experts will better serve you there.

[Mons]

well technically speaking going from 14-15 is going from 14.9 to 15.0 so that .1 of a difference is important at any point in the scale.

As a former mathematics student, 14 in the game would be anything between 13.5 to 14.4 in real terms, while 15 would be between 14.5 and 15.4.

To be pedantic

[Tony7]

Hi Tony - could you create a thread in the Technical Issues forum please. One of our Mac experts will better serve you there.

Thanks x1000000

[Äktsjon Männ]

well technically speaking going from 14-15 is going from 14.9 to 15.0 so that .1 of a difference is important at any point in the scale.

Technically speaking going from 14.999 to 15.0 the 0.001 difference is important as well. How precise do you want it to be is the question here. If they feel the 20 point scale isn't large enough then show me the full 100 point scale. Don't clutter up my screen with arrows that only serve to confuse me.

[CityAndColour]

I think the problem with using the match odds as a guideline for team talks is they are too heavily based on reputation, and not enough on form. To use a real life example, right now both Norwich and Swansea would start as favourites in a home match against Villa, but in the game they would be heavy underdogs.

[psymon2011]

Hi, since the 12.0.4 patch all matches in 1 round (PL, Champs League etc.) are played at the same time regardless of TV coverage. This wasnt fixed with the 12.1 patch. 'Move matches for TV' has been both checked and unchecked to try to fix but to no avail. How do I fix? Very frustrating that all games are played at 3pm on a Saturday. Thanks, Si

[Barside]

That's not happening on my game, Premier League TV matches are moving to their correct time slots & CL games all KO at 19:45 UK time.

[psymon2011]

hmmm, its crazy! all PL league games are sat 3pm or wed 7.45, with 3, 4 or even 5 on 'tv' at the same time, champs league are all played same time wed nights (all 8 groups, all 2nd rounds, QFs etc.) europa league all wed nights, fa cup games all at same time 3pm on saturdays, no idea where its come from! patch 12.0.4 did something! was fine up til that point. mind you i didnt download any other patches before then, but later patches cover all changes from previous right? so wouldnt expect it to be that

[Barside]

I've not seen anyone mention this problem, your best bet is to post about this in the bugs forum & upload your save file to ftp for the guys at SI to have a look & see what is going wrong.

What you're describing does sound like the 'move matches for TV' option is not working correctly.

[psymon2011]

Ok will do, thanks for the suggestion!!

[JamboJapp]

Update this morning? What was it for?

[Keyzer Soze]

Update this morning? What was it for?

Yeah, i just got a update also. What's the new features?
The version is still 12.1.1

[wally13]

Steam updated dont think fm did though did it ??

[Kriss]

Just Steam updated not FM, there's a fix for local content deletion/download which may affect FM players though, not sure as it doesn't specify what it fixed.

[Mr_CEO]

Hi SI Games and whoever may help,

My game keeps crashing around the 25th June - 8th July going into my third season....it keeps coming up with some error.

I don't have the error code as Windows likes to quickly resolve the issue and closes it before I have a chance to print screen

My drivers are up-to-date and my laptop more than meets the minimum requirements


The last time I had this EXACT issue was with Football Manager 2007 and I thought since moving on to create 2012...things like this would be sorted out...

Anyhow,

I would appreciate your support on what I should do to overcome this crash dump/error (whatever it is)

Thanks in advance

[Kriss]

Hi SI Games and whoever may help,

My game keeps crashing around the 25th June - 8th July going into my third season....it keeps coming up with some error.

I don't have the error code as Windows likes to quickly resolve the issue and closes it before I have a chance to print screen

My drivers are up-to-date and my laptop more than meets the minimum requirements


The last time I had this EXACT issue was with Football Manager 2007 and I thought since moving on to create 2012...things like this would be sorted out...

Anyhow,

I would appreciate your support on what I should do to overcome this crash dump/error (whatever it is)

Thanks in advance

Have a look here and see if there's a temp fix for you http://community.sigames.com/showthr...past-30th-June

[stevemc]

Just Steam updated not FM, there's a fix for local content deletion/download which may affect FM players though, not sure as it doesn't specify what it fixed.

So is there anywhere we can check if this will affect Mac users?

[Reccy]

well technically speaking going from 14-15 is going from 14.9 to 15.0 so that .1 of a difference is important at any point in the scale.

Disagree completely. 14.9 has no effect to that particular ability. Im talking be differences to warranty the arrow. 14.1 is a 0.9 difference, 14.9 is a 0.1 difference. If this level of detail is needed, then surely it would be better to included on the attribute screen as 14.5 or 15.8 or whatever, rather than 14, 15 etc..

Or what would be better, to include the arrows, if you hover over the attribute, it tells you the EXACT rating (ie, 14.8)

[milnerpoint]

Every tiny increase changes the way the attribute will be used in the ME, even 0.1 of a change makes a difference when it comes to the ME. If you click on the attribute it will take you to a graph and you can see yourself what the increase is.

[Liniert]

Anyone else getting alot more crashes since the update? i am playing on a save game from the previous patch so maybe that could be it

[Reccy]

Every tiny increase changes the way the attribute will be used in the ME, even 0.1 of a change makes a difference when it comes to the ME. If you click on the attribute it will take you to a graph and you can see yourself what the increase is.

How is a 0.1 increase/descrease in crossing going to effect the ME? How can someone be 0.1 better/worse at a certain atrribute and how could it be transformed into the ME performance? I personally think if this is the case then it needs to be more warranted and detailed to physcially show this, rather than not.

And with regards to the graph, i didn't know that, so thanks mate.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Every tiny increase changes the way the attribute will be used in the ME, even 0.1 of a change makes a difference when it comes to the ME. If you click on the attribute it will take you to a graph and you can see yourself what the increase is.

The point is that the changes are too minor to warrant the arrows. There are too many arrows as a result and it becomes impossible to keep track of attribute progression. The scale is 20 so I want to see attribute changes on that particular scale highlighted. If SI think the 20 point scale is not enough then they should just change it. What they have done with the arrows is neither here nor there and it doesn't help the user in any way.

[milnerpoint]

How is a 0.1 increase/descrease in crossing going to effect the ME? How can someone be 0.1 better/worse at a certain atrribute and how could it be transformed into the ME performance? I personally think if this is the case then it needs to be more warranted and detailed to physcially show this, rather than not.

And with regards to the graph, i didn't know that, so thanks mate.

It could be as little as 1 cross in 100 is of a better quality, i obviously dont know exactly how the ME is calculated, but any increase will improve your player and like i say it could be 1 pass in a hundred or 1 cross in a hundred is better, which in turn could lead to a goal that wouldnt have happened without the increase. SI dont have the attributes increasing for no reason, any tiny change effects the ME.

[milnerpoint]

The point is that the changes are too minor to warrant the arrows. There are too many arrows as a result and it becomes impossible to keep track of attribute progression. The scale is 20 so I want to see attribute changes on that particular scale highlighted. If SI think the 20 point scale is not enough then they should just change it. What they have done with the arrows is neither here nor there and it doesn't help the user in any way.

Its very easy to keep track of any progression using the graph. I far preferr the new way, its much easier to keep on top of poor trainers and catch things early, or to see when a player is a bit burnt out and not training so well, for me the change is fantastic, i need to use the graph less because i can keep an eye out on the attribute page much better.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Its very easy to keep track of any progression using the graph. I far preferr the new way, its much easier to keep on top of poor trainers and catch things early, or to see when a player is a bit burnt out and not training so well, for me the change is fantastic, i need to use the graph less because i can keep an eye out on the attribute page much better.

'Show attribute changes' is not a function for showing short term training progress. It there to show attribute changes. It doesn't now. For me this is absolutely useless. Training progress has to be shown on the training page, that's what it's for.

[milnerpoint]

Attribute changes are hugely tied into training progress.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Attribute changes are hugely tied into training progress.

No sh*t Sherlock. Doesn't mean it's necessary to make a feature that used to show attribute changes do something different i.e track short term training performance. If I was interested in training performance there were ways to track that before 12.1 (the attribute graph, training page, etc). There is no easy way to track attribute changes on the 20 point scale now. That's the point.

[Inno17]

Okay, please bear with me on this one.... I've played FM for years but never used a 'Patch' or 'Update' I've always just taken the game for what it is....

Could somebody please help me with my queries below...

Is a 'Patch' or a 'Thread' the same thing?

Where do I find, download and apply a patch or thread to my game?

If I download the latest patch or thread will that then include updates and data from previous patches released since the original game but before the latest path or thread?

If I add a patch/thread to my 'save-game' will players then move automatically in-line with IRL transfers?

Thanks for your help with this.

[milnerpoint]

This now gives you a more detailed instant view of how your players are progressing, i really dont see the problem, if you dont want to see the arrows turn them off, you can still check progression through the other ways you mentioned with the arrows off. Its just something a bit new people have to get used too, hopefully it stays this way for future version.

[Äktsjon Männ]

This now gives you a more detailed instant view of how your players are progressing, i really dont see the problem, if you dont want to see the arrows turn them off, you can still check progression through the other ways you mentioned with the arrows off. Its just something a bit new people have to get used too, hopefully it stays this way for future version.

Where exactly have I said that I don't want to see arrows? I want them to highlight attribute changes just like they used to instead of doing something they're not at all supposed to do. There are no alternative ways to see attribute changes.

It's not something that I should have to get used to, it's something that should be made optional or improved (couple of good suggestions on how are being discussed here).

[milnerpoint]

Who says they are not suppose to do what they do now? The arrows were always there to indicate attribute changes, they now do it to a more detailed level than they did before, they are not doing anything they shouldnt be.
You can use the graph to easily see attribute changes, click on any attribute and it will bring up the graph, go to the view tab top right and it will zoom in and you can see exactly what has changed and by how much.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Who says they are not suppose to do what they do now? The arrows were always there to indicate attribute changes, they now do it to a more detailed level than they did before, they are not doing anything they shouldnt be.
You can use the graph to easily see attribute changes, click on any attribute and it will bring up the graph, go to the view tab top right and it will zoom in and you can see exactly what has changed and by how much.

Yeah, because it's really easy to manually click each and every attribute instead of, you know, seeing an arrow beside the attribute to indicate a change. Is it really so hard for you to understand that some players actually want to track attribute changes on the 20 point scale, the one that's used everywhere in the game? There are other ways to track training performance, easily, in the places where it's logical to look for it i.e the training page.

[milnerpoint]

I'm done going over and over this, we're clogging up the thread. The arrows show attribute changes, now more detailed than before, get used to it.

[Äktsjon Männ]

I'm done going over and over this, we're clogging up the thread. The arrows show attribute changes, now more detailed than before, get used to it.

Get used to what? That a feature that used to work before now does something it's not meant to do - purely judging on it's very description? If an attribute was 15 before and is 15 now it hasn't changed. Therefore the arrows do not properly describe attribute changes. I don't want detail that ends up in every player having an arrow beside pretty much every attribute or none at all - that's the end result of this change.

Again, I'm not even saying the new style system must be removed. But there should be an option to go back to the old way. Or at least use a different set of arrows for the minimal changes so one could still tell when the attribute has gone up or down.

[milnerpoint]

Sorry did you design the feature, am i missing something here? You say its doing something its not suppose to do, even tho SI devs have explained to you its doing exactly what its described to do. Attributes dont, and have never gone from 13-14 for example, they have always gone 13.1, 13.2, 13.3 ect.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Sorry did you design the feature, am i missing something here? You say its doing something its not suppose to do, even tho SI devs have explained to you its doing exactly what its described to do. Attributes dont, and have never gone from 13-14 for example, they have always gone 13.1, 13.2, 13.3 ect.

The attributes are shown in the game as 1-20, not 1.0-20.0. If that's not enough they should change it. In my opinion though the 20 point scale is enough. Again 15 to 15 is not a change on that scale, even if something has changed 'under the bonnet'. I'm not sure what youre arguing about really.

[milnerpoint]

Attributes for as long as i can remember have been worked out on a 1-100 scale, not 1-20, nothing has changed under the bonnet in this respect. Its just we are giving a 1-20 scale on the attributes screen.

[Äktsjon Männ]

I'm aware of that and have been for a while. It isn't relevant to any of my points though.

[milnerpoint]

Well the point is, attributes are working out on a 1-100 scale, the arrows show us progression on a 1-100 scale, have you considered that maybe the arrows didnt work properly before now?

Anyway like i said a few posts back, we're clogging up this feedback thread, feel free to PM me if you want to carry on discussing it

[Barside]

There is a simple way to look at the arrows displayed on the player profile page.

Treat them as a quick visual reference for the general effectiveness of your training regimes, green arrows indicate that your training is having a positive effect & red means you are retarding a players development, from there you can opt to take a closer look at the players development via there training page to see precisely what is going on.

As with many areas of FM the first screen you see does not & IMHO should not give the full picture as there is too much information to successfully convey on just one screen, it's all about the detail & SI have helpfully provided a staggered format to how information is fed to the player.

[x42bn6]

An "arrow" usually represents something that has "changed" (if it's not a button), so if nothing appears to have changed to the user, there should not be an "arrow".

The 1-100 backend is relatively meaningless - users aren't supposed to know it's 1-100 behind the scenes. The player screen is supposed to act as an interface that encapsulates all that logic behind the scenes. One day it could be 1-1000 behind the scenes, or it might turn into decimal numbers such as 50.42. We shouldn't need to care.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Well the point is, attributes are working out on a 1-100 scale, the arrows show us progression on a 1-100 scale, have you considered that maybe the arrows didnt work properly before now?

No. What I would perhaps consider is that the scale shown ingame is too narrow, but I don't think it is. The arrows should be relevant to the scale shown in the game just like they always have been up until now.

Anyway like i said a few posts back, we're clogging up this feedback thread, feel free to PM me if you want to carry on discussing it

This is feedback so I don't see how it's clogging up the thread. Plus there's nothing here to be discussed privately.

[Barside]

No. What I would perhaps consider is that the scale shown ingame is too narrow, but I don't think it is. The arrows should be relevant to the scale shown in the game just like they always have been up until now.

I didn't think there had been any change in how these arrows work compared to recent FM's, I may have missed a post confirming a change but I always thought that changes to the underlying 0-100 attribute range were represented with arrows as they are on FM12.

[Super Bladesman]

You can estimate the 'finer detail' of the attributes by looking on any player's Training screen graphs, fwiw.

[milnerpoint]

No. What I would perhaps consider is that the scale shown ingame is too narrow, but I don't think it is. The arrows should be relevant to the scale shown in the game just like they always have been up until now.

The game uses both the 1-20 scale and the 1-100 scale depending on what screen your looking at.

[milnerpoint]

An "arrow" usually represents something that has "changed" (if it's not a button), so if nothing appears to have changed to the user, there should not be an "arrow".

The 1-100 backend is relatively meaningless - users aren't supposed to know it's 1-100 behind the scenes. The player screen is supposed to act as an interface that encapsulates all that logic behind the scenes. One day it could be 1-1000 behind the scenes, or it might turn into decimal numbers such as 50.42. We shouldn't need to care.

You can easily see its a 1-100 scale when you look at the training graph.

[Äktsjon Männ]

You can easily see its a 1-100 scale when you look at the training graph.

How? The graph only represents a trend. There are no values assigned to it (actually there are, values from 1-20). You can just as well see it as a 1-100000 scale. The 1-100 scale is not visible in the game at all. It is so because SI have decided, at some point, that a 1 point change on a 100 point scale is not important enough to be represented in a player profile. The small increment changes within an attribute (1-20) have always been shown as a measure to describe short term training performance.

[grade]

Now I'm confused. Which of the two come into play for Match Engine? the 1-20? or 1-100?

[Äktsjon Männ]

Now I'm confused. Which of the two come into play for Match Engine? the 1-20? or 1-100?

Which is a good question because it's not exactly been made clear. PaulC posted above that the attributes are 'stored' on a scale of 1-100, but which scale does the ME see in it's calculations?

[x42bn6]

You can easily see its a 1-100 scale when you look at the training graph.

Doesn't it show 1-20 down the side? If not, there's a mismatch between that graph and the player's profile.

[BiggusD]

Doesn't it show 1-20 down the side? If not, there's a mismatch between that graph and the player's profile.

There are 5 points between 14 and 15, not 1. If the scale is 1-100 I mean. Looking at it, that is quite obvious isn't it?

[Äktsjon Männ]

There are 5 points between 14 and 15, not 1. If the scale is 1-100 I mean. Looking at it, that is quite obvious isn't it?

No it's not, unless you know that it's a 1-100 scale underneath. It looks like this:



The difference between 14 and 15 is not divided into 5 extra segments. There is no way of knowing this is a 1-100 scale unless you know it because you've been told so by the developers. Regardless, this is not really relevant either.

[PaulC]

The ME sees what is stored - 1 to 100.

[hluraven]

I think everyone would be happy if there was just consistency between the screens. If 1-100 is important, used throughout the game, and worth showing on the training screen, it should be either shown everywhere by default, or an option to have 1-20 shown everywhere, including the training arrows.

It is a bit odd that 1-100 is used in game, but that all player attributes are entered in the database in a 1-20 format by researchers though?

[PaulC]

They ate stored 1-100 as its easier to have a realistic progression of attributes that way through a player's career. However we think 1-20 makes more sense from a research point of view.

[Barside]

They ate stored 1-100 as its easier to have a realistic progression of attributes that way through a player's career. However we think 1-20 makes more sense from a research point of view.

I would actually say that 1-20 makes more sense from a playing perspective as it (very) artificially adds to the realism.

Using a 1-100 display reference is too finite & would remove an aspect of vagueness that currently exists, one 15 rating will be different to another 15 rating but if the 1-100 was displayed we'd know that one was a 71 & the other was a 77 making it easier to ensure you had the very best players.

On this issues ignorance (1-100 rating) is bliss & change is a bad thing.

[Frank Abbondando]

This isn't a major issue but...

Italian Manager in charge of Italy is offered the Mexico job?

Seems a bit unrealistic to me.

[najeczka]

So my feelings after the patch... The game definetly lost the fun factor. It is frustreting to see, how a world class striker like Mario Gomez is shooting 15 goals per season, when before the patch he shoot 30 goals. Yah, and don`t tell me about the motivation bug... Because you can`t tell me that the game is so horribely playable because SI have changed something in the process of motivating players. Second when I see how my players are playing when the ME kicks in in a match... I play Fc Bayern in FM12 but the style whitch i see when ME kicks in is horrible, passes are inaccurate, the players are shooting each other on, the goalies seem sometimes unbeatable, freekicks are bad (i`m thinking sometimes, why the hell do we need freekicks in the game when they are awfull simulated, 3 goals from freekicks last season... SI really??) and one more. I`ve got planty times a situation when the opponent team is scoring a goal against me and the game is saying that "That his first goal this season". This happens a lot of times. I read some posts on this topic and I see a lot of players are not happy with the current patch. SI is saying that they wanted to make the game more chellenging... Yeah, ok I can understand that, but it looks like that most of the players don`t want to be frustrated about the FM, they want to have fun. SO SI i would say that the 12.1.1 patch is to 80% an owngoal. Let make the next patch (goal) count
PS. Sorry for my bad english.

[RDSkillz]

The one on one chance of striker vs keeper made me stop playing until the next patch comes.. (and I doubt that it will be fixed)
they just miss too much..

[najeczka]

The one on one chance of striker vs keeper made me stop playing until the next patch comes.. (and I doubt that it will be fixed)
they just miss too much...

So true

[blala]

There is still an insane amount of "off the woodwork" stuff in an underhanded attempt to keep the scoring down to a "realistic" level. Which would be okay except the game then chastises you for not winning by as large a margin as you ought.

yeah i 'm with you mate , this is annoying and so unrealistic number of woodwork and crossbar hope si fix that in next patch

[phnompenhandy]

Grep my best advice to you is just try it for yourself.

Sorry to be a broken record, but this is not really sound advice. Owing to SI's manner of operating patches, if you 'try', you are stuck and can't go back. Updating is less of a 'try' and more of a gamble, an irreversible commitment. I've never understood why it is deemed unacceptable to 'downdate', or revert to a previous version if a customer is not satisfied after 'trying' and update.

[jep]

I have to say I think this alteration in the motivation levels of players and the complete randomness of team talks has killed FM12 for me. I was doing ok before the last patch, and had a common sense system of how to handle team talks (try not to be erratic and swing from one mood to another, try to be positive but let the players know if they were underperforming) but it seems completely random now. I rarely get any player being positive (green indicator) in team talks, and so many players just switch off irrespective of what you say to them. One example was a big home win for my Liverpool side against a Fulham side who were battling for the title with me. We won 4-1 and I told them it was a very good performance and still nobody reacted at all to that full time teamtalk. Not one single player showed they were pleased to have beaten a title rival - what?

I feel like the last patch has just taken away any common sense approach and I now feel like I am randomly trying things in the vain hope I do the right thing. I have tried managing teams from lower league, top leagues, using automatic rep, international footballer rep, but there is no feel that I am actually in control of what is happening and no matter what I try nothing gives the same reaction twice. Might as well use a bingo caller to randomly shout out my teamtalks!

Back to FM10 for me I think.

[PaulC]

Jep I am sure they were happy with the win. Perhaps you telling them well done had no real bearing on their mood as a result?

[BiggusD]

I have to say I think this alteration in the motivation levels of players and the complete randomness of team talks has killed FM12 for me. I was doing ok before the last patch, and had a common sense system of how to handle team talks (try not to be erratic and swing from one mood to another, try to be positive but let the players know if they were underperforming) but it seems completely random now. I rarely get any player being positive (green indicator) in team talks, and so many players just switch off irrespective of what you say to them. One example was a big home win for my Liverpool side against a Fulham side who were battling for the title with me. We won 4-1 and I told them it was a very good performance and still nobody reacted at all to that full time teamtalk. Not one single player showed they were pleased to have beaten a title rival - what?

I feel like the last patch has just taken away any common sense approach and I now feel like I am randomly trying things in the vain hope I do the right thing. I have tried managing teams from lower league, top leagues, using automatic rep, international footballer rep, but there is no feel that I am actually in control of what is happening and no matter what I try nothing gives the same reaction twice. Might as well use a bingo caller to randomly shout out my teamtalks!

Back to FM10 for me I think.

I don't think it is the team talks as such that has changed, but their attitude to their manager. I have continental reputation at Bradford in PL, while the club and the players are barely National, and they adore me there. In Roma, having barely National reputation in a club that is surely Continental, I experience the same thing as you. I got Andorra promoted to Liga Adelante and they all adore me there, while after only ten league games with Granada they are "meeeh" towards me.

What I choose as team talk doesn't seem to have any bearing on anything unless the players adore me. I think that the British idea of reputation and inherited status is shining through too much in 12.1.1, other cultures don't have the same attitude towards social rank. I wonder how Germans think about teenagers talking back to their boss and not following orders...

[CityAndColour]

I wouldn't mind a "playing nervously" epidemic running through my squad every second match so much if it didn't render them unable to make a simple five yard pass.

[stevemc]

The one on one chance of striker vs keeper made me stop playing until the next patch comes.. (and I doubt that it will be fixed)
they just miss too much..

I'm with you, they just hit the majority of shots onto the woodwork to keep scores down.

I hope its fixed in the next patch and I'm really missing FM.

[PaulC]

I'm with you, they just hit the majority of shots onto the woodwork to keep scores down.

I hope its fixed in the next patch and I'm really missing FM.

That's just rubbish.

Maybe the woodwork count is slightly higher than IRL, but its still not more than 1 per team each 2 matches at the high end. Perhaps teams suffering from it have strikers with a tendency to try to place the ball in the corners?

Anyway, no significant ME changes for 12.2, just so you don't get your hopes up.

[najeczka]

That's just rubbish.

Maybe the woodwork count is slightly higher than IRL, but its still not more than 1 per team each 2 matches at the high end. Perhaps teams suffering from it have strikers with a tendency to try to place the ball in the corners?

Anyway, no significant ME changes for 12.2, just so you don't get your hopes up.

So when goes the 12.2 patch live?

[Neil Brock]

Any update will be included with the Post-January transfer update as usual. We have no exact date set for this at this stage. Thanks.

[blala]

no neil i have match getting the crossbar about 3 or 4 times ,i gone crazy after that

[bigman]

well if si don't make the game playable again (after a poll thread where the vast majority felt the game was fine pre patch) then i think me, and alot of others are done with this game

u can defend the motication issue as much as u want, but i havn't loaded up steam since i started a new game with this update, i don't even have the option to get rid of it and revert the game to how it was when i enjoyed it

poor form si, i have been a loyal customer for years and put alot of my money, into your products

[RDSkillz]

That's just rubbish.

Maybe the woodwork count is slightly higher than IRL, but its still not more than 1 per team each 2 matches at the high end. Perhaps teams suffering from it have strikers with a tendency to try to place the ball in the corners?

Anyway, no significant ME changes for 12.2, just so you don't get your hopes up.

What? no ME Changes planned to fix thisl? even with all the moaning about the 1 on 1 situations that most players agree its a bug?
Thats whats kept me waiting for the next patch...