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Thread: Team Talks - What is the point

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    Default Team Talks - What is the point

    What is the point in team-talks, if they just have the complete opposite effect to what they say they do.

    when leading 1-0 and playing comfortably, i assertively tell my players to not get complacent. They ALL gain focus and motivation. Then we go and lose with some sloppy play all around the park.

    Now I can understand this response if my team-talk HADN'T shown greens, focus, motivation etc. across the board, but it did.

    I actually seem to get a better response when I just tell them to relax in every match. Pointless

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    what if the opposition were even more motivated and made you sloppy? I enjoy this versions TTs

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    Well, if that's the case it's happened about 90% of the time i've been in the lead. I've either lost, or should have lost after half time, yet when I just go relaxed for pre-match and half time, I seem to play a lot more comfortably, whether it's against better, worse or rival teams.

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    Then you should have learnt your lesson by now, use calm team talks!

    It isn't a difficult trend to spot, before the game or if you're winning at half time then calm or passionate talks work best (usually), and if you're losing at half time then either assertive or agressive team talks work best (usually).

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    I do agree with you to some point of extend.
    Like when im a euro club, and when i win a midtable-lower table team.
    Common-sense will tell me to ask the players to not be complacent, but only some of them gained focus, most of them are angered.
    But other than this, i usually can get my players motivated. It all depends on your team

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    Does anyone actually use the cautious or reluctant tone?

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    I daren't use the cautious or reluctant just because I know it won't motivate at all.

    The problem I have with it, is that I can motivate and get them to gain focus when winning, but it seems to negatively affect the performances? It would be fine if it actually showed them as being angered or losing focus, it's just i'm lead to believe that it was teh correct team talk and it doesn't work as expected

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    I can't understand how some people say that teamtalks are useless. They're overpowered if anything.. I haven't seen my teams regularly turning around matches when we were 2 or 3 goals down in other FM's. And now it has happened a lot of times within 3 seasons for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdrawmer View Post
    I daren't use the cautious or reluctant just because I know it won't motivate at all.

    The problem I have with it, is that I can motivate and get them to gain focus when winning, but it seems to negatively affect the performances? It would be fine if it actually showed them as being angered or losing focus, it's just i'm lead to believe that it was teh correct team talk and it doesn't work as expected
    Cautious tones have worked for me at times, when necessary. Ie demanding a win after a succession of losses

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    NOt really had a problem with team talks this year. It's fairly easy to choose the correct team talk going by what odds your team are to win the match. I have found myself using passionate and assertive more than any of the other though.

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    Im at Spurs and cruising it, team talks working for me are: Pre match, Assertive - Give the fans something to cheer with group talks of Assertive - No pressure. Half time Assertive - Keep it up if winning Assertive - Not happy if drawing or worse.

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    I just had a thread very similar to this the other day

    http://community.sigames.com/showthr...desired-effect

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    just get an assman with good man management and assign him to do teamtalks.

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    I seem to find myself using 'Calm' every time.

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    Just winning 2-0 at half time.

    "Keep it up lads".

    Lost 4-2

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    My method is to talk the performamnce not the scoreline.

    So if we're winning but most ratings are lower than 7.0 I say calm-unhappy.

    Tends to work for me but some say that your team's personanlity matters more than anything.

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    What makes you think telling them not to be complacent will make them hold on? Sure, it has an influence, but there's still an entire nother half to play. Lots of things can happen. Besides, if the opponents come out fired up while you had a fairly indifferent talk you'll be at a motivational disadvantage. Not to mention that if your aim is "don't slip up" while theirs is "get back into this" you're probably in trouble if they manage to get the 1-1. I'm not sure if FM is quite this advanced, but SI have confirmed that morale/attitude changes according to match events, so I suppose it's plausible.

    Personally I'd always tell my players to keep going if we're only the odd goal up.

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    Scab - the point is that it happens a lot more often than it should, and when you're screen is full of greens saying motivated and focused, then you'd think that, with it being a game, that SHOULD cancel out any benefits the opposition have had from a positive team talk, otherwise what's the point? There just doesn't seem to be a correlation between the effects of the team talk in terms of 'focused', 'motivated', 'relaxed', and the performances that you actually see from them afterwards.

    Like I said in a previous reply, if it came out full of reds and I played rubbish, then i'd understand and i'd avoid that team talk in that situation, but now i'm having to second guess when the greens will actually have a positive effect?

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    I think team talks are the one area which have gotten worse in this years version, to the point where they have become pointless. The whole tone of voice thing seems to have no effect to a players reaction, and a player being motivated or stressed based on your talk seems to have no effect whatsoever on his performance, in my experiences so far in 12.

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    If I'm winning 3-0 at half time. And I say "Keep it up" and I lose 4-3! That's not right.

    If I play against a superior team and I say "relax" and they win 2-0. That's not right.

    What's happening is you say "Playing well, well done" and they go out and lose. Or you can say "You're underdogs nobody expects much from you" and they go out and win.


    It happens conversely too. When I'm the underdog I score with my first short on target and win by a narrow margin.

    When I'm the clear favourite and I say "I expect you to win" I end up losing. By their only shot on target.

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    Here we are again. Favourites to win.

    They scored with their first shot! It's a ****ing joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdrawmer View Post
    [...]
    Well, green just means positive body language. Focused and relaxed for instance have different effects, i.e. influences players differently. Which one that's actually appropriate for any one game is for us to decide. Feedback could maybe be a bit better in this regard.

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    It's just backwards.

    Also couldn't have made it more confusing.

    AND! When I want to say to my midfielders that I'm not happy with their Playmaking the option is NOT there at all! I could be favourites in a game and not have a single shot on target all first half.

    It's a bloody disgrace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    If I'm winning 3-0 at half time. And I say "Keep it up" and I lose 4-3! That's not right.

    If I play against a superior team and I say "relax" and they win 2-0. That's not right.
    There isn't a direct correlation between team talk and final result... It's one influence of many. Simply saying the right/wrong thing doesn't mean you will win/lose, it shifts the odds. In other words, fact that you lose after saying X doesn't mean you lost because you said X. It had an effect - positive or negative - among lots of other effects. Maybe your squad works better under little pressure if the relax talk works for you - keep saying what does it for them.

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    perhaps they had low fitness.

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    I've learned to avoid pre-match overall team talks and instead I just say assertive-have faith to every player. It means a positive reaction from most of them and, more important, they don't go out and get trashed by a much weaker opposition (which used to happen a lot when I was using "expect to win", "show me what you can do" and other things that seemed logical).

    Also, I've been monitoring the opposition motivation widget during matches and noticed what seems an unfair advantage the AI have. For example, I'm up 2-0 at half-time and then score in the 47th minute for 3-0. Now, their game plan has effectively fallen apart and surely most of them must feel disappointed or whatever, but no...Almost of all of their players were "playing confident" or "fired-up" for the rest of the game, despite me scoring for 4-0 soon after that! Before you say it depends on their personality, they're not very determined players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scab View Post
    There isn't a direct correlation between team talk and final result... It's one influence of many. Simply saying the right/wrong thing doesn't mean you will win/lose, it shifts the odds. In other words, fact that you lose after saying X doesn't mean you lost because you said X. It had an effect - positive or negative - among lots of other effects. Maybe your squad works better under little pressure if the relax talk works for you - keep saying what does it for them.
    Relax option isn't there when you're favourites!

    Look the team talk is backwards. Doesn't work as expected. Simple.

    You say "I expect you to lose" they win. You say "I expect you to win" and they struggle.

    You can't swap those when your favourites or underdogs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scab View Post
    There isn't a direct correlation between team talk and final result... It's one influence of many. Simply saying the right/wrong thing doesn't mean you will win/lose, it shifts the odds. In other words, fact that you lose after saying X doesn't mean you lost because you said X. It had an effect - positive or negative - among lots of other effects. Maybe your squad works better under little pressure if the relax talk works for you - keep saying what does it for them.
    But by your reckoning, there's no way of finding out if you've shifted the odds in yours of their favour - that's not right. There's feedback all over the game about various things, and there should be the same here, about whether or not you had a positive or negative effect on the players, and whether or not you might have done better with a different team talk.

    In my eyes, and the eyes of many others, the colour of the team talk effect should positively or negatively affect the performance... Not necessarily to the point of "everybody's green - that means i'm going to win", but it should at least let you know you've done the right thing.

    I've just reached the point as I have with press conferences where I just ask the assistant to do it - not automatically, but I get him to do the overall one, and I make changes as necessary where he's said something stupid. Annoying that it should be like that, but hey ho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Relax option isn't there when you're favourites!

    Look the team talk is backwards. Doesn't work as I expected. Simple.

    You say "I expect you to lose" they win. You say "I expect you to win" and they struggle.

    You can't swap those when your favourites or underdogs.
    Sounds like you have a squad that reacts badly to pressure, does it not? Perhaps you should experiment with calming and cautious talks.

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    Not just me.

    Any sqaud. Any team. Any League.

    It's a problem.

    You are expected to win. You say it. They play like *****.

    You are expected to lose. You say it. They play like heros.



    Ok not all the time. But more often it made me take notice.

    Hey I'm doing well. But I do notice when I'm meant to be superior I lose. When I'm the underdog I win.

    Happens way too often.

    This thing of the Underdog scoring a goal with first shot is stupid.

    Sometimes I am the underdog, and I win because of this.

    Othertimes, I am the favourite. And the underdogs win by their first shot on goal.

    It's a problem.

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    Well its not a problem i have come across at all, i said to you in the other thread your team obviously struggles with pressure. I very rarely have any bother with the team talks, but even picking the "correct" team talk does not guarantee a win.

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    Winning 2-0, tell the team in a Calm tone they're doing well.

    "Stewart Downing looked stressed".

    Huh?

    Apart from that I like this new system. Allows you to more accurately get your point across. Except to Downing. He seems to thrive on being told he's utter crap.

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    I just let my assman do the overall team talk, and I change whatever I deem has been a ridiculous error on his part. Otherwise i just get frustrated that it doesn't feel like it should

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    A manager's job is not to tell his kids the truth.

    You're 2-0 down away vs Chelsea at half-time.

    "ok lads you're chanceless. go out there and make fools out of yourselves".

    Probably true, but that's not what you're supposed to do. Good managers are good manipulators who are good liars.

    So when you are huge favourites to win a match against the bottom team in the league at home, that's a lot of pressure on the lads. If they are very confident, they may feel both pressured and be less inclined to give everything for a win (nervous+complacent). The manager saying that he expects them to be awesome in the match doesn't make things any better. In fact, that's a direct sabotage as far as the players are concerned. If the squad is not very similar so that everyone are model professionals, driven and perfectionists, some players will react badly to whatever you say.

    Too little pressure and the players will not give their 100%. Too much and they will make huge errors of judgement. If you are struggling against underdogs -every- time, you are the one doing something wrong, probably both motivationally and tactically. It sounds like you are too easy to punish with counter-attacks and that is a tactical error, it also seems like you put too much pressure on the team against underdogs and that is a motivational error.

    The positive reaction at half-time only lasts about 10 minutes or so. After that the match live its own life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdrawmer View Post
    What is the point in team-talks, if they just have the complete opposite effect to what they say they do.

    when leading 1-0 and playing comfortably, i assertively tell my players to not get complacent. They ALL gain focus and motivation. Then we go and lose with some sloppy play all around the park.

    Now I can understand this response if my team-talk HADN'T shown greens, focus, motivation etc. across the board, but it did.

    I actually seem to get a better response when I just tell them to relax in every match. Pointless
    Hi,

    I had this problem also in the FM11. Very often, when I use the "complacent" option, my players stop to play. It's like they have more pressure finally. I NEVER use it when I lead 1-0. I can think using it at 3-0 but even that, it's sometime dangerous...

    Perso, I like the new team talk. I think SI should continue to work on it to add more options in the FM13 !

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    Quote Originally Posted by bendhondt View Post
    Hi,

    I had this problem also in the FM11. Very often, when I use the "complacent" option, my players stop to play. It's like they have more pressure finally. I NEVER use it when I lead 1-0. I can think using it at 3-0 but even that, it's sometime dangerous...

    Perso, I like the new team talk. I think SI should continue to work on it to add more options in the FM13 !
    Only use warn against complacency when your players are going to be complacent in the second half. That's what's going to happen when you are on a long winning streak, you lead 2-0 or more and the motivation gadget says everyone are "playing with confidence". That last bit can be translated to "overconfidence" when you are big favourites against a team which is not your rival.

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    For me the team talk is only 30% about short term influencing of the match. The most important thing that teamtalks control for me is team morale. If Ive got a team really low on morale, they can be playing bottom of the league club and they'll get completely turned over. Key is to boost them when their morale is low, and give them a roasting when its high and theyve become complacent. I also tell my youngsters I have faith, and my big players that I expect a performance. Usually had the desired effect, though its not foolproof.

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    I don't see a problem really. Your team can gain as much focus as they want, they've still got to perform and being focused/motivated doesn't ensure a win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RocheBag View Post
    I don't see a problem really. Your team can gain as much focus as they want, they've still got to perform and being focused/motivated doesn't ensure a win.
    Thats the key, its not a case of pick an option that produces a green reaction from your team and your guaranteed a win, like everything else in this game, its part of an equation to winning a game, any part on its own can be useless without other elements to back it up. The team talk should be the final part of the overall equation, the last thing you have to put into place to win a game.

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    I think people over-think the team talks. The motivation game is all about finessing all of your team/press interactions to fall into the "motivated" sweet spot in regards to how much pressure they are feeling. FM12 does not have a complex model of human psychology. Everything basically just amounts to "more pressure" and "less pressure" with individual personality types simply determining how sensitive they are to these two basic options and how big their individual "sweet spot" is. There are three basic sectors along a continuum that your players fall into:

    -----------Complacent-----------[]-----------Motivated-----------[]-----------Nervous-----------

    You want to do everything to get your players to fall into that middle sector, and you have to realize that all your players are going to somewhere on this line based on everything that's being said by yourself and other managers going into the match. So don't think that, after a bunch of team talks talking up a team on a winning streak and putting them at the extreme far end of the "Complacent" sector, a simple "[Calm]Hey guys, don't get complacent" is necessarily going to pull them all the way up to the sweet spot of sector two. You may make them more focused and motivated, but that may not be enough if they went in feeling invincible.
    Last edited by The Hand of God; 21-11-2011 at 16:58.

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    HoG has hit the nail on the head with his "sweet spot."

    You have to remember that players are just a bunch of numbers in a spreadsheet. We have to prod the equation in the right direction.

    However, the wording in almost every aspect of player interaction is so vague that you're constantly trying to work out what what the words actually mean. Often the exact opposite of what you would logically expect.
    Last edited by robertcornell68; 22-11-2011 at 08:37.

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    I'm an angry manager, it seems to work. My team were playing very below-par and my assistant tells me to say how well they're doing!? I was angry, we won. Guess my assistant was watching another game.

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    As Hand of God said, team talks are not about improving performance per se, they are more about getting your players happy, and yes that does involve lying, or stomaching your disgust at a performance until full time!

    In general (although not always, as with everything this will depend on the situation and team) I find it useful to calmly tell my team good luck at the start of the match, unless we are massively favourites or playing a rival. In those cases calmy saying expect a win, and passionately saying do it for the fans. Individual team talks you just have to have learnt how your players will respond, and whether you think they need an extra confidence boost.

    Half time team talks are not really for telling your team what you think of their performance! It is all about maintaining confidence, so unless you think calling them crap will motivate them don't do it. It is all about keeping your players happy at half time I think.

    Full time is when you can really let your team know what you think, but still remember that you will affect overall moral of the players.

    Finally, if I am losing large leads frequently, I would almost certainly look to alter my tactics for the second half to make it harder to score goals. More defensive play, narrower play etc. At least until I had worked out why I was conceding so many leads. Maybe not exciting fun to watch football but a win is a win.

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    team talks play a big part in winning and losing. I love it

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    Quote Originally Posted by robertcornell68 View Post
    HoG has hit the nail on the head with his "sweet spot."

    You have to remember that players are just a bunch of numbers in a spreadsheet. We have to prod the equation in the right direction.

    However, the wording in almost every aspect of player interaction is so vague that you're constantly trying to work out what what the words actually mean. Often the exact opposite of what you would logically expect.
    Judging by the press conferences (the only place you get real feedback from what you actually say), the last part of this reply is true.

    The sweet spot thing may well be true, but, again, how are we supposed to know when we've succeeded - do we assume that if we managed to win, that particular team talk worked, because that could have just been a coincidence and you try it next time and it fail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdrawmer View Post
    Judging by the press conferences (the only place you get real feedback from what you actually say), the last part of this reply is true.

    The sweet spot thing may well be true, but, again, how are we supposed to know when we've succeeded - do we assume that if we managed to win, that particular team talk worked, because that could have just been a coincidence and you try it next time and it fail.
    Firstly you're attributing too much to the team talk, you may have won becuase of other reasons. Secondly one particular talk in one instance may not necessarily yield the same result in another because the situation changes throughout. And there is the motivation widget that gives you feedback throughout the game, accounting for all factors than can effect morale, not just the team talk

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdrawmer View Post
    The sweet spot thing may well be true, but, again, how are we supposed to know when we've succeeded - do we assume that if we managed to win, that particular team talk worked, because that could have just been a coincidence and you try it next time and it fail.
    There is no one answer that will be correct for every game, it would be completely pointless if that was the case, each game might require a different approach.
    Anyway, a team talk will not be the deal breaker between a win and a loss, far from it, its a very small part of winning a game. There is also tons of feedback this year, you get feedback as soon as you give a team talk, during the game you can check and after the game is finished you can go back and check the effects of what you said. No guessing or anything is needed.

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