Football Manager 2012 - iPhone/iPad/iPod release date???

[andy24king]

Anybody know when this is released for the iPhone/iPad/iPod? And to be honest I shouln't even be posting this. Technology the way it is today and they can't release it on all platforms at the same time. They seem to manage it on game consoles but with this one, FAIL!!!

[andy24king]

And UK version only. Don't want any lucky sods from around the world saying that its out on there apple device!!!

[Dec9693]

The game hasn't finished being made.
Apple and Sony's submission processes are different.
Apple has a rule where they cannot say anything before release.

[Alari Naylor]

Stuff like this should not be posted in the bugs forum, please.

[Alari Naylor]

Now that this has been moved to the right forum I'd like to add that the PSP and Apple games are so different nowadays that - given the limited size of our team - it really isn't practical to release them at the same time, even if we wanted to.

[GoDi]

Indeed.
PSP = Cheap
iPad = Expensive
=
Release iPad first! (And lose the PSP version, PSP will die soon anyways, focus on making ios version better )

ps. Release it already ;(
Altough, gotta say, playing FM12 (the PC version) through Splashtop Streamer on my iPad2 is great, just sometimes bit hard to hit the buttons, but its great for extreme hangover days where u just dont want to get out of sofa

[Marc Vaughan]

We'll release it when its ready and fully tested - I'm confident that you'll enjoy the iOS version when its out and appreciate why its required all the extra testing.

Please be patient, it'll be here before christmas ...

[Akyn]

2 Godi i use the same program, and have a same problem, i am going to test long range wireless radio mouse.

Marc you and your group do a great job. Dont stop, cm and now fm its endless road from good to very good.
I know sigames have their own strategy for handheld version but i think version for ipad in future should be like pc version. casual players dont play FM even on iphone......dont be afraid to make a game harder.


I hope we will have full 2d match engine in nearest future! Now its a point for handheld version in my opinion.

[JoshIsCool]

Mark, Could you say a date or a range like 2 weeks or so because I need to get my apple voucher and I would like to know so that I can choose clothes or game many thanks

[Dec9693]

No he cannot, Apple do not like anything told about the game in case it doesn't go through submission successfully and with their submission time it is unpredictable as it could go through in a day or two weeks (at Christmas it is worse as many more apps are trying to submit).

[JoshIsCool]

Wasnt asking you <snip>

[Dec9693]

Well Marc would give you the same answer. Also you have no need to insult me as I was trying to help you and normally when someone wants help they don't go around called people <snip>s or they will get ignored/banned.

[David Milmine]

The most specific we can be is that the game will be out before Christmas.

Let's please try to behave ourselves.

[enthon]

Good call
Dec9693

It is posted 1000 times but people are just ignore it like children do.

Enthon

[JoshIsCool]

Well I belive it is silly to bring the pc version out two months before the ios version shame on you.

[Dec9693]

Two totally different games, dev teams and the submission time scale and rules are too.

[Your_Nightmare]

IMO, the excuse of two different OS is not good enough for me. Just take a look at your competitor EA Sports, they managed to release their FIFA 2012 for PC/Mac and iOS iPad/iPhone/iPod to satisfy their customers across the most popular platforms currently in the market. If you really want to keep your customer base happy, you should listen to us, and if you don't have a sizable team, then you should hire more staff to make it happen, or pay the price to be dragged by your competitor. Excuse my harsh criticism, but lets face it, this is reality.

[MrPrestige14]

What you just stated is absolutely spot on. In a world of business - its the customers first and businesses should be doing everything in order to keep customers satisfied regardless the situation! If they dont they end up losing customers simple as that!

[Dec9693]

EA Sports do several game and get many more sales than SI so can afford it hire a lot more staff. FIFA is successful but SI outclasses FIFA manager as they dedicate a lot more time to their management games.

[JoshIsCool]

Please just bring it out your putting us of the game :l

[David Milmine]

It's not too long until Christmas, and it will be out before then!

[whoismilan]

Just take a look at your competitor EA Sports

...who is currently one of the biggest game companies in history.
Why doesn't Millwall choose to win Champion's League? If they don't have the players for it, they should just buy better players... if they don't do it now there's no chance they'll beat Barcelona.

How much does FMHi cost, about £7? Apple takes 30%, so that's about £5 left. Then after everything else, such as taxes, licensing, and so on, there's not much of those £5 left to pay for salaries.
On average a software developer in the UK earns about £35000 per year.

How many sales are SI loosing by releasing slightly later on iOS? Lost sale, obviously, means that someone who would definitely have bought the game but instead decided to never buy it...

and if you don't have a sizable team, then you should hire more staff to make it happen

The reason why Millwall doesn't just buy the players they need in order to win Champion's League, is because it's not guaranteed to work, and even if it did work, it's not guaranteed to be profitable. You would think that someone who has played FM would understand that it's not always as simple as buying more people...

[MrPrestige14]

It's not too long until Christmas, and it will be out before then!

So will that be 24th December?

[Marc Vaughan]

So will that be 24th December?

It'll be available before Christmas day don't worry ...

[bbuullddoogg]

IMO, the excuse of two different OS is not good enough for me. Just take a look at your competitor EA Sports, they managed to release their FIFA 2012 for PC/Mac and iOS iPad/iPhone/iPod to satisfy their customers across the most popular platforms currently in the market. If you really want to keep your customer base happy, you should listen to us, and if you don't have a sizable team, then you should hire more staff to make it happen, or pay the price to be dragged by your competitor. Excuse my harsh criticism, but lets face it, this is reality.

EA also release horribly buggy games and DON'T CARE WHATSOEVER about their customers or take the time answer any forum posts when people ask for help. SI however are the opposite. EA are not really SI's competitor. I don't see EA making a football management sim that is worth anything. The reason people get so wound up about a game not coming out is because it's so good. Just play the 11 version until 12 comes out and stop whining.

I'm playing 12 on the PC and it's an amazingly good game. The handheld version probably will be when it comes out too.

[trundley]

OMFG its 13th November and still no more information. Want, want want!

[Reedboy09]

This is a joke, by the time it's released we will only get a month or so before squads get updated for January transfers and we have to start a new game with updated squads. Part of the enjoyment of playing is that it's alongside the real football season or maybe starts a month or two behind. At this rate half the real life season will have been played before we get near the game. What a shambles! Surely it won't be that different to the previous game so why the delay when other formats are out already!!!

[Razza]

Yep, I'm afraid I have to agree....The enjoyment is playing alongside the current season (give or take a month).....

[Claret_Chris]

Complete shambles, shoody coders, crap company blah blah blah

/sarcasm off

Seriously, good things come to those who wait

[MrPrestige14]

Those guys who are kissing FMs ass about be patient - and all that sh*t - stfu. Why does it take so long just to release a standard game - I would have thought it would be quicker as its only for the ipad and iphone. I dont wana end up playing with old players when that transfer window occurs. Im sure the football season starts in September not December!

[Alari Naylor]

Just want to make it clear that we haven't had any delays and that the current timeframe for release is what has always been planned. There are practical reasons for this and I'm sure there are probably good commercial ones as well, though those of us who actually work on the game don't deal with that side of things.

As soon as we're allowed to release any more information, I'm sure it will be posted here.

[Claret_Chris]

Those guys who are kissing FMs ass about be patient - and all that sh*t - stfu. Why does it take so long just to release a standard game - I would have thought it would be quicker as its only for the ipad and iphone. I dont wana end up playing with old players when that transfer window occurs. Im sure the football season starts in September not December!

As stated in numerous other threads Apple has an application process for all of the apps, as well as their own qa. Generally these are long time scales, also as noted in numerous other threads aswell as Alari here, there has been no mention of release date other than before Christmas, this has been the case for the past few versions of the app. And also worth a note Marc and the guys always push an update shortly after the transfer window so the game is still upto date.

And to think the game would be quicker just because its on an iphone /ipad shows how really niave you are to the production, coding and design of applications and software.

[Rocky Raccoon]

Really looking forward to this game - yes the wait is frustrating but I'm sure it will be worth the wait.

[Vane]

People seem to forget that the release date last year was 16 December. I think it was just about the last day Apple uploaded apps to its store before Xmas.

[lalalacz]

can someone tell me if they had an update in january last year to reflect player transfers and was the ipad version also later than the pc one

[Claret_Chris]

can someone tell me if they had an update in january last year to reflect player transfers and was the ipad version also later than the pc one

Yes there was an update and it was shortly after the transfer window closed

[nffc1991]

I don't know all the reasons for such a late release of a Football management game, obviously your pointing a large amount of blame at Apple. But you are surely losing out on sales by releasing the game 4 months after the season has started, also your profit off the Iphone/Pod/Pad games must be pretty minimal?

[Marc Vaughan]

I don't know all the reasons for such a late release of a Football management game, obviously your pointing a large amount of blame at Apple. But you are surely losing out on sales by releasing the game 4 months after the season has started, also your profit off the Iphone/Pod/Pad games must be pretty minimal?

I'm not pointing blame at anyone - Apple have been very good to work with on the handheld products, they do have submission procedures and suchlike and some regulations they like developers to follow .... but I've enjoyed working with them so far.

The game will be out before christmas, I'm not allowed to give out feature lists or a firm release date at this time and we are giving all the information we're allowed to presently.

I realize this is frustrating for you; please do understand its equally frustrating for me, I love talking about my games ... won't be too long now.

[Marc Vaughan]

can someone tell me if they had an update in january last year to reflect player transfers and was the ipad version also later than the pc one

The game has had a transfer update free of charge in each of its two previous iterations (as well as various other updates with fixes & enhancements in them).

The way it was implemented in last years game you could select the database you utilised when starting the game (so you could either use the 'start of season' or 'january deadline' databases - important if your favourite team had signed or sold a player you loved).

[rafafloripa]

Yeah, you still had Roberto Carlos in the December database
(best left-back regen ever)

[nffc1991]

I'm not pointing blame at anyone - Apple have been very good to work with on the handheld products, they do have submission procedures and suchlike and some regulations they like developers to follow .... but I've enjoyed working with them so far.

The game will be out before christmas, I'm not allowed to give out feature lists or a firm release date at this time and we are giving all the information we're allowed to presently.


I realize this is frustrating for you; please do understand its equally frustrating for me, I love talking about my games ... won't be too long now.

I understand the position your in Marc and will remain patient, I was just wondering is the profit your making worth all the time and energy into making an IOS game. I bought last years but won't this time around as its nearly Christmas and just seems a bit of a waste for £7-8 when the season is nearly halfway through and would expect there to be a fair few of people thinking the same as me.

[trundley]

I understand the position your in Marc and will remain patient, I was just wondering is the profit your making worth all the time and energy into making an IOS game. I bought last years but won't this time around as its nearly Christmas and just seems a bit of a waste for £7-8 when the season is nearly halfway through and would expect there to be a fair few of people thinking the same as me.

I know where you're coming from its already half way-ish through the season and were just getting handed the game and then we'll be expected to do the same next year and the year after and so forth.

[coxy100]

Must admit - I do think it takes the biscuit that the season started in August - and here we are in November and there's no mention of the new version. Yes it's coming but when...? imo if the game had been released in September - maybe October then I'd be happy but frankly I'm not interested now as we're so far along the season - I'd rather play with my current saves on the soon to be 'old version'.

Also, the fact that Marc (not his fault) can't even talk about the features... silly. Look at any game release nowadays -we're released details one little trickle at a time. Marc should be allowed to give us something at least. How can we get excited / anticipate a game when we hear nothing. Yes we'll hear something soon, but imo it's far too late.

[chowarduk]

This is a joke, by the time it's released we will only get a month or so before squads get updated for January transfers and we have to start a new game with updated squads. Part of the enjoyment of playing is that it's alongside the real football season or maybe starts a month or two behind. At this rate half the real life season will have been played before we get near the game. What a shambles! Surely it won't be that different to the previous game so why the delay when other formats are out already!!!

Totally agree, surely the game should be released to coincide with the real life football season.
Why don't SI start development earlier if it takes this long to release?

[chowarduk]

Those guys who are kissing FMs ass about be patient - and all that sh*t - stfu. Why does it take so long just to release a standard game - I would have thought it would be quicker as its only for the ipad and iphone. I dont wana end up playing with old players when that transfer window occurs. Im sure the football season starts in September not December!

It starts in August actually :-)

[chowarduk]

As stated in numerous other threads Apple has an application process for all of the apps, as well as their own qa. Generally these are long time scales, also as noted in numerous other threads aswell as Alari here, there has been no mention of release date other than before Christmas, this has been the case for the past few versions of the app. And also worth a note Marc and the guys always push an update shortly after the transfer window so the game is still upto date.

And to think the game would be quicker just because its on an iphone /ipad shows how really niave you are to the production, coding and design of applications and software.

Surely games that they are charging £7+ for take preference over £0.69 apps? Especially when they get thousands and thousands of downloads. Would this pay to employ more people to develop the game quicker?????

[Razza]

Are you finally getting the sense of frustration SI?

[Dec9693]

A few things as this is getting boring now (will be quoted when it applies).

1. Would you rather the game to be later and be near perfect or early August with less features and more bugs?
2. QA needs to be done, this takes time.
3. Apple need to do QA and approve the submission, at Christmas this is longer than usual.
4. Apple prevent SI talking about the game.
5. SEGA set the date, it is normally Q4 for FM as it is around Christmas and with people getting money/iTunes cards then it works out for the app to be released just before.
6. Be patient, it will be at most 5 weeks as complaining means Marc and the other SI guys are spending time answering your posts (unlike other companies) and not testing/making the game.
7. If you want a FMH type game quicker and if you know all about making, marketing and testing the games please be my guest to do it.

[Marc Vaughan]

Totally agree, surely the game should be released to coincide with the real life football season.
Why don't SI start development earlier if it takes this long to release?

We start development on one version as soon as development on the previous version is completed, can't really start much earlier than that really

One of the reasons that we can't release right at the start of a season is simply that some league rules, transfers, whatever aren't completed and set in stone until that point (and bear in mind if we release right as the season starts the game development has to be finished a month plus (minimum) before hand) ... as such we 'could' release then, but run the risk of upsetting people by things being incorrect once they're finalised in real-life.

I fully understand peoples frustrations, bear with me ... I'm equally looking forward to the games release myself (and the more time I spend on here posting to try and calm you chaps down the less I'm spending actually final tweaks on the game).

[tylerazevedo]

this is supposed to be an image but the forum software wont let me upload it nor point to the url

Why again do you guys still develop for PSP? If u guys just abandon that version in favor of an android app....I think the numbers in the image do the talking......

[Dec9693]

Even 0.1% can still be £1m revenue, if that is the case and SI/SEGA sell enough games every year to cover what they feel is a sufficient profit then why wouldn't they?

Edit: Also expect that to go down when the Vita is released next year.

[tylerazevedo]

Even 0.1% can still be £1m revenue, if that is the case and SI/SEGA sell enough games every year to cover what they feel is a sufficient profit then why wouldn't they?

Edit: Also expect that to go down when the Vita is released next year.

But is it worth that £1m when you are losing £10m due to lack of Android support? PSP is on it's way out obviously. So in a couple of years developing for the PSP will be like developing for the Game boy instead of the DS.

[Dec9693]

Well when the PSP code is the same as iOS and the game is built with all the kits they need then yes as it is still viable and making a profit. The Android market has had problems mentioned already (fragmentation) as unlike many graphics based games FMH uses statistics so cannot just be scaled. Also the code base is different meaning a whole new code which won't benefit the current games but also more time on this so SI will have to employ/train/redesignate people to build the game from scratch which takes a lot of time andwill have to be paying these people, but also they will need a whole set of new QA guys and several dev kits for each Android phone (which is even more money).

[rafafloripa]

Well, the 2012 game on the PSP is basically the 2011 game with a transfer update (which was already done for FM anyway). So it was a very low investment in terms of work-hours + cash, for an already consolidated PSP player base that would buy it anyway.

Sounds brilliant to me, business-wise.

[tylerazevedo]

Well when the PSP code is the same as iOS and the game is built with all the kits they need then yes as it is still viable and making a profit.

If it were the same, then the iOS version would be done and out by now. There are obviously differences.

The Android market has had problems mentioned already (fragmentation) as unlike many graphics based games FMH uses statistics so cannot just be scaled. Also the code base is different meaning a whole new code

As long as everything is based on interfaces rather than hard coded classes, then switching between devices shouldn't be too painful. It should be more or less about the same as adapting the PSP code to work on iOS.

which won't benefit the current games

It would indirectly affect the current games. The real benefit would be an increased profit for SI, which would in turn mean a bigger staff, a faster turn around, and a higher quality game (not that the games are poor quality to begin with).

but also more time on this so SI will have to employ/train/redesignate people to build the game from scratch which takes a lot of time

Building from scratch is not likely necessary. As I said before it should be about the same effort that it took to port the PSP code to iOS. And you would need to hire maybe one or two Android developers. And you can hire a monkey to test, or anything with opposable thumbs.

andwill have to be paying these people, but also they will need a whole set of new QA guys and several dev kits for each Android phone

All part of business, except you wouldn't need any more QA guys.

I assume they are actively pursuing it as we speak. Not making moves to get their product on the platforms that own the majority of the market share (or are projected to take over in the next year or two) would be a major flaw in the company's vision for the future. It's a low risk, high reward for SI.

(which is even more money).

Gotta spend money to make money.

[Dec9693]

If it were the same, then the iOS version would be done and out by now. There are obviously differences.

Yes there is now as the iOS is evolving more but the iOS used the PSP base and now the PSP is using some iOS things. It is the same code.

As long as everything is based on interfaces rather than hard coded classes, then switching between devices shouldn't be too painful. It should be more or less about the same as adapting the PSP code to work on iOS.

The iOS skins were all coded from scratch as unlike many interfaces it is mainly text based which cannot be scaled as well (creates blurring).

It would indirectly affect the current games. The real benefit would be an increased profit for SI, which would in turn mean a bigger staff, a faster turn around, and a higher quality game (not that the games are poor quality to begin with).

I agree and disagree, I will leave it at that.

Building from scratch is not likely necessary. As I said before it should be about the same effort that it took to port the PSP code to iOS. And you would need to hire maybe one or two Android developers. And you can hire a monkey to test, or anything with opposable thumbs.

As mentioned the iOS and PSP have the same code base (C++), Android uses a totally different one.

All part of business, except you wouldn't need any more QA guys.

More games, more QA guys, more devices to support (x20 at least).

I assume they are actively pursuing it as we speak. Not making moves to get their product on the platforms that own the majority of the market share (or are projected to take over in the next year or two) would be a major flaw in the company's vision for the future. It's a low risk, high reward for SI.

It is up to SI to make the decision just it would require a lot more people to come in as while the games could share the same ideas they would have to be built by two different teams. It can be quite a high risk as iOS users spend more than the Android ones on average and with needing a lot of time dedicated to making the game, testing it to see it works on so many different devices and each one will have different bugs and the amount of money needing to be pumped in, as well as SI needing to negotiate licenses for players, teams and leagues it could be quite risky.

Gotta spend money to make money.

I agree but they need to see viability which I am sure they are doing.

[rafafloripa]

All your assumptions come from the hypothesis that the PSP and iOS games are the same. They're not. And that's the main reason why the iOS is not out yet. PSP development was clearly abandoned, while we are expecting dozens of new features in iOS.

There are thousands of android threads going on on this forum. Please don't turn this into another one...

[Dec9693]

Was that to me, Rafa? I never said they are the same but the same code base meaning if Marc likes he can implement one feature into PSP easily (which he has done before).

[tylerazevedo]

Yes there is now as the iOS is evolving more but the iOS used the PSP base and now the PSP is using some iOS things. It is the same code.

It's not the same code; they share code. Sharing doesn't mean they are the same. Android would probably share more code with iOS than PSP version, but all three would share code.

The iOS skins were all coded from scratch as unlike many interfaces it is mainly text based which cannot be scaled as well (creates blurring).

Things seem to scale pretty well from iphone to ipad. Unless I'm mistaken, this is a universal app right? Which means the graphics should be scaleable...unless everyone downloads 2 sets of graphics (iphone and ipad) when they download the game. Skinning a game isn't hard...

As mentioned the iOS and PSP have the same code base (C++), Android uses a totally different one.

iOS uses objective C if I'm not mistaken, which is not C++. PSP uses C, though I'm not sure about C++. They are similar yet different languages. Either way, C++ libraries exist for the Android now, so really the difference in code should be minimal.

More games, more QA guys, more devices to support (x20 at least).

by QA do you mean testers? In which case yes they would need testers. I thought you meant QA guys, which are different from mere testers.

It is up to SI to make the decision just it would require a lot more people to come in as while the games could share the same ideas they would have to be built by two different teams. It can be quite a high risk as iOS users spend more than the Android ones on average and with needing a lot of time dedicated to making the game, testing it to see it works on so many different devices and each one will have different bugs and the amount of money needing to be pumped in, as well as SI needing to negotiate licenses for players, teams and leagues it could be quite risky.

It's about the same risk as it was to jump to iOS from PSP. Off the top of my head, Android has more of a market share than iPhone at this point. So even if Android uses do spend less, it will still be about the same revenue stream as the iOS due to the higher market share. So really, if it was worth it to port from PSP to iOS then it will be worth it to port from iOS to Android. And now is the time to start down that path because PSP is likely going to be obsolete in a few years, which will cut into the profits.

[Ceirdiff]

Android can run the same code base (C++) and requires less optimisation - the majority of devices and especially the newer ones are more powerful than the apple equivalents, my phone is half a year old and fast than the 4S, the new version will be even faster again, the Amaze will have a quad core, the list goes on.

[tylerazevedo]

All your assumptions come from the hypothesis that the PSP and iOS games are the same. They're not. And that's the main reason why the iOS is not out yet. PSP development was clearly abandoned, while we are expecting dozens of new features in iOS.

yes

There are thousands of android threads going on on this forum. Please don't turn this into another one...

Personally I don't care since I have an iPhone. I just think it's a smart move for SI to move towards developing on devices that will be there in the future.

[Dec9693]

Android doesn't use C++ according to Marc. I may have misunderstood him though but he did say he would need to rebuild the game.

[tylerazevedo]

Android doesn't use C++ according to Marc. I may have misunderstood him though but he did say he would need to rebuild the game.

http://developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/index.html

[Your_Nightmare]

It has been stated on this thread that due to Apple is very meticulous about their app process, and because of this the iOS FMH2012 has yet to be released for sale. Just out of curiosity, if Apple has all of these requirements and compliance guidelines, why is it the there weren't any issues in launching the FM 2012 for Macs made by Apple? IMO, more than Apple being the cause of games not launching at the same time on all platforms, has to do which market bringings in more profit to SI. Obviously, we know that in this case the PC version drives their profit, and therefore it's given priority in the sale launch in comparison to his younger brothers.

[lodgrief]

Hi All,
Can I just ask what the release notification process is - how will I hear about it quickest? In this thread? In the app store? Oh the footballmanager home page?

[rafafloripa]

All your assumptions come from the hypothesis that the PSP and iOS games are the same. They're not. And that's the main reason why the iOS is not out yet. PSP development was clearly abandoned, while we are expecting dozens of new features in iOS.

There are thousands of android threads going on on this forum. Please don't turn this into another one...

Was that to me, Rafa? I never said they are the same but the same code base meaning if Marc likes he can implement one feature into PSP easily (which he has done before).

No, it was to tylerazevedo.

[whoismilan]

I am surprised at how many people are desperate to play the game alongside the current season.
I suppose I can see why this would be an interesting exercise for some, personally however I'll already be well into 2012 in-game the same day the game is released, and then any keeping up with the current season and January transfers and whatever will have no importance anymore.

[Marc Vaughan]

Android doesn't use C++ according to Marc. I may have misunderstood him though but he did say he would need to rebuild the game.

What I've indicated in the past to clarify:

* Windows Mobile7 is a no-go as it doesn't support C++ at all.
* Android is a possibly viable option as it allows bridging to C++ HOWEVER there are a lot of complications involved including (but not limited to) -
(1) Only partially C++ support in the NDK, some features such as typing etc. are NOT supported, (2) NDK debugging is notoriously awkward/flaky as the development system is aimed at using Java and not debugging into C++, (3) Fragmentation on the platform means that supporting all devices is somewhat complicated not just because of their physical differences but often the platform owners involved have customised the OS somewhat which can mean unsupported or unpredictable functions and naming discrepancies between devices.

I'd love to support all devices possible - but please bear in mind that there are practical physical limits to whats possible at present ...

[tylerazevedo]

All your assumptions come from the hypothesis that the PSP and iOS games are the same. They're not. And that's the main reason why the iOS is not out yet. PSP development was clearly abandoned, while we are expecting dozens of new features in iOS.

There are thousands of android threads going on on this forum. Please don't turn this into another one...

No, it was to tylerazevedo.

Really? Why was that directed at me?

A) I wasn't trying to turn this into a droid thread because I have an iPhone and dont care.

B) I was arguing that the PSP and the iOS are not the same....so I'm confused on why you said "All your assumptions come from the hypothesis that the PSP and iOS games are the same".

[tylerazevedo]

* Windows Mobile7 is a no-go as it doesn't support C++ at all.

I wouldn't abandon Windows Mobile7 just because it doesn't support C++. It supports C#, which isn't terribly different (although it's quite different) from C++ but would be a significant amount of work. I'm not saying "please have this done tomorrow" or anything because I will probably never own a windows phone. I'm just saying don't eliminate the possibility for the future because it may one day be practical to implement.

* Android is a possibly viable option as it allows bridging to C++ HOWEVER there are a lot of complications involved including (but not limited to) -
(1) Only partially C++ support in the NDK, some features such as typing etc. are NOT supported, (2) NDK debugging is notoriously awkward/flaky as the development system is aimed at using Java and not debugging into C++,

Sort of like using Mono for .NET on OSX, which we have explored at my job, so I understand the issue. Although Mono has become a lot more stable in the past few years, so I'm sure the NDK will get better in a few years.

(3) Fragmentation on the platform means that supporting all devices is somewhat complicated not just because of their physical differences but often the platform owners involved have customised the OS somewhat which can mean unsupported or unpredictable functions and naming discrepancies between devices.

In software, there is always a solution

I'd love to support all devices possible - but please bear in mind that there are practical physical limits to whats possible at present ...

Again, I play on the iOS, so it doesn't matter to me if these ever come out. I just think it's a low risk/high reward to get onto the Android platform. Given that SI has such good customer relations, I think that you guys would put the money to good use and give us users a better overall product. It's just a win-win.

I do think that the M7 version is too high a risk to develop at this point...of which you are fully aware.



So to make this Android business relevant to the iOS release date: you guys really need to get the initial game out sooner next year...which means you guys need a bigger team...which means you need more money...which means you need another piece of the market share...which means you guys need an Android version

[rafafloripa]

I think in the end the main problem of porting it to Android is that the amount of bugs/troubleshooting/issues is going to be so huge that SI will need to hire *a lot* more people to do the Q&A

[Marc Vaughan]

I wouldn't abandon Windows Mobile7 just because it doesn't support C++. It supports C#, which isn't terribly different (although it's quite different) from C++ but would be a significant amount of work. I'm not saying "please have this done tomorrow" or anything because I will probably never own a windows phone. I'm just saying don't eliminate the possibility for the future because it may one day be practical to implement.

I'm not saying "it'll never happen" - however I am indicating in the short-medium term it won't ... putting it simply we've a small team on handheld (two developers) and there are roughly 250,000 lines of C/C++ code in the game, porting that little lot over to C# will take a while.

(and yes I've taken a cursory look at the 'automatic porting tools' ... but none have looked too promising for that level of size/complexity so far)

Sort of like using Mono for .NET on OSX, which we have explored at my job, so I understand the issue. Although Mono has become a lot more stable in the past few years, so I'm sure the NDK will get better in a few years.

I've actually got an (as yet unused) Mono-installer on my Mac waiting to be played with ... love the concept, but expecting it to be somewhat rough in places.

In software, there is always a solution

Oh I agree - unfortunately I'm a pragmatic developer and very aware of time constraints ... just because something can be done, it doesn't mean its viable.

Again, I play on the iOS, so it doesn't matter to me if these ever come out. I just think it's a low risk/high reward to get onto the Android platform. Given that SI has such good customer relations, I think that you guys would put the money to good use and give us users a better overall product. It's just a win-win.

We do our best to ensure that our products are as good quality and as playable as possible - that in itself is one of the reasons we don't 'rush' to new devices just to make a profit, I'm sure we'll expand further in the fullness of time ... when its practical and sensible to do so.

So to make this Android business relevant to the iOS release date: you guys really need to get the initial game out sooner next year...which means you guys need a bigger team...which means you need more money...which means you need another piece of the market share...which means you guys need an Android version

LOL - nicely turned

Its possible the handheld team might expand in the future (time will tell) - but as with anything it isn't just "bums on seats" its getting the right people to do the job, hiring the wrong person can be very detrimental to a development team, so its important that when we bring someone on board we take our time and get the right person ...

[JoshIsCool]

IPOD GAME RELEASE DATE OF THE 21st November Leaked, SPREAD!

[Marc Vaughan]

IPOD GAME RELEASE DATE OF THE 21st November Leaked, SPREAD!

I take it this is just a random date you've plucked out of the air to pump out and see if you can get a reaction? ... good idea, nice try ....

(silence echoes loudly)

[Dec9693]

What the hell - do you have a source or have the Gods gifted you with this talent of picking a correct release date?

[bbuullddoogg]

It cracks me up that people are freaking out this much over the fact that a cheap little handheld game won’t be out for another month or so. Especially when the 2011 version came out last December and is available for peanuts and people don’t even know what features are in the new game yet. Chill out already. Go play Angry Birds or something!

[Joshua]

It cracks me up that people are freaking out this much over the fact that a cheap little handheld game won’t be out for another month or so. Especially when the 2011 version came out last December and is available for peanuts and people don’t even know what features are in the new game yet. Chill out already. Go play Angry Birds or something!

Well, FMHi is not exactly a "little game". I don't think Marc and others would agree with such remarks.

[Dec9693]

Marc told me something a while ago, FMHi has 40k lines of codes while Angry Birds probably has at most 10k. Not exactly little .

[coxy100]

A few things as this is getting boring now (will be quoted when it applies).

1. Would you rather the game to be later and be near perfect or early August with less features and more bugs?
2. QA needs to be done, this takes time.
3. Apple need to do QA and approve the submission, at Christmas this is longer than usual.
4. Apple prevent SI talking about the game.
5. SEGA set the date, it is normally Q4 for FM as it is around Christmas and with people getting money/iTunes cards then it works out for the app to be released just before.
6. Be patient, it will be at most 5 weeks as complaining means Marc and the other SI guys are spending time answering your posts (unlike other companies) and not testing/making the game.
7. If you want a FMH type game quicker and if you know all about making, marketing and testing the games please be my guest to do it.

1) I would prefer the game to be early August AND be near perfect. If that means missing a 'year' to ensure this happens then so be it.
4)Apple prevent SI talking? How do other developers manage it then? Have you ever visited toucharcade.com ... we get interviews from devs months in advance.
7) Why are you being pedantic. People are allowed to have a moan you know - this is a discussion forum...

It cracks me up that people are freaking out this much over the fact that a cheap little handheld game won’t be out for another month or so.

I wouldn't describe FMHi 'cheap' compared to other ios games

(and the more time I spend on here posting to try and calm you chaps down the less I'm spending actually final tweaks on the game).

I don't think you need to calm us down too much - we know you're working on the game Marc

[EmmaBratten]

I am eagerly awaiting this game! It feels a bit like when I was young and waited for Santa to arrive with my gifts. Be it so that the game comes out on Christmas Eve then the circle would be complete! :-)

[Jugster]

I'm perfectly happy to wait for the 2012 release as I'm currently managing in Italy which is surprisingly different to other leagues. However, it's a valid point to ask when and why SI is scheduling the game for release. There are only two main dates to do it. One in August to co-incide with the start of the season after the summer lay-off so everyone is excited about the game again, or in December because sales benefit from a Christmas boom.

The debate over taking longer to get the bugs out etc is nonsense. If you switch to an August release then you either hire someone extra because there is a shorter development time for one year only, or you make superficial changes for that year's release. Then you have 12 months again until the next release and you still get Xmas sales and a january update is better timed. So, the question is, does actually releasing the game for Christmas create more sales than an August release and a Christmas promotion? I cannot image any relatives buying the iOS version to gift to young Johnny on his iOs device. They can't gift wrap it, it isn't physical so it simply will not happen. No-one is going to buy FHMi as a gift for a friend or relative. Yes, I can see they can hand over an iTunes gift card, and that might be spent on FHMi by new customers, but how many when face with an entire iTunes store of content to choose from?

So, is it just people feeling joyous with the spirit of buying and trying something new while they are at it? Are there really any new consumers, who, busy buying presents for everyone else, suddenly decides that they will buy FHMi for themselves, because it's Christmas? Because the regular customers, your fan base, will buy it regardless. The casual customer is most likely to want to buy it when interest is highest - and that's the start of the season and the end when all the drama happens, not Christmas.

Anyway, looking forward to the 2012 release regardless

[Ceirdiff]

Marc told me something a while ago, FMHi has 40k lines of codes while Angry Birds probably has at most 10k. Not exactly little .

Are you joking? I made a game in a weekend for a competition: 2k lines of code. 40k is barely anything, you can punch that out within a week or two even by yourself - I heard Marc quote 250k lines in several places though.

[Dec9693]

Damn iPhone, I am sure he said 400k but autocorrect had other ideas.

1) I would prefer the game to be early August AND be near perfect. If that means missing a 'year' to ensure this happens then so be it.
4)Apple prevent SI talking? How do other developers manage it then? Have you ever visited toucharcade.com ... we get interviews from devs months in advance.
7) Why are you being pedantic. People are allowed to have a moan you know - this is a discussion forum...

1) From a marketing point of view a before Christmas release is normally the way to go for several games.
4) That is what Miles has said to me personally face to face, Marc has reiterated this on MSN too. I cannot tell you more than that.
7) Not being pedantic but people are overlooking so many things when having a go when in reality they cannot make a game like pong no matter FMH.

[Marc Vaughan]

Are you joking? I made a game in a weekend for a competition: 2k lines of code. 40k is barely anything, you can punch that out within a week or two even by yourself - I heard Marc quote 250k lines in several places though.

FMHi has at least 250k lines of code in it, haven't counted the number for quite a while now ....

Although I'd equally argue that 40k lines of code is a fairly complex program and personally I'd try not to crunch something like that out in a week myself - its possible, but if you do it then theres a reasonable chance the code you're making isn't going to be the most robust/flexible in the world - bear in mind that the code in our games has to survive the test of time, most of our products evolve for a minimum of 5-6 years, FMH was released for the first time in 2006 (if I remember right) and first code written around 2005, code from that era is still present in the game released today in 2012 ... when you're writing code with that sort of evolution timeframe writing it sensibly (ie. so its easy to understand) and ensuring its flexible is arguably more important than anything else.

[Ceirdiff]

Pong is a hard game to make...working out the angles of reflection and a decent AI is a pain xD (although I saw someones code which did a graphical one is 3 lines of python/pygame...

Unfortunately 4 is correct - I guess Apple don't want to be hated for rejecting some overhyped app.


And Marc, your definitely right, in one of my pet projects (another management game^^) then I'm working more on readability and class structure alongside a very modular approach. Obviously in a weekend game contest it's going to be slightly different though - the game is unlikely to be touched afterwords, and if it is popular I'd end up doing a complete code rewrite. A lot of space was dedicated to different class attributes inheritting from a main class, I'd probably have some format for that which would save space.

Of course, it was just a point I was trying to make that 40k isn't a huge amount. (Someone should check out the size of some pyweek entries, in my latest my map format was just a class: 48 maps x 15 tiles high = 720 lines of code for maps not including map scripts, map meta-data, etc. - this was an old school platformer to).

[trundley]

FMHi has at least 250k lines of code in it, haven't counted the number for quite a while now ....

Although I'd equally argue that 40k lines of code is a fairly complex program and personally I'd try not to crunch something like that out in a week myself - its possible, but if you do it then theres a reasonable chance the code you're making isn't going to be the most robust/flexible in the world - bear in mind that the code in our games has to survive the test of time, most of our products evolve for a minimum of 5-6 years, FMH was released for the first time in 2006 (if I remember right) and first code written around 2005, code from that era is still present in the game released today in 2012 ... when you're writing code with that sort of evolution timeframe writing it sensibly (ie. so its easy to understand) and ensuring its flexible is arguably more important than anything else.

ITS OVER 9000!!!!!!!

Sorry, someone had to.

Also, are there going to be any new player atributes or a revamped training scheme?

[Dec9693]

He cannot reveal anything, sorry. However about attributes I am going to take a guess and say no as they aren't in the PSP version.

[burdinho]

Marc

So if I was to buy one version of FM2012 - in terms of depth, would it be on the 3GS or PSP?

[JoshIsCool]

Alright no need to be an idiot about it, It was on a sega interview actually so dont get knickers in a twist mate, You shouldnt even work for sports interactive, You have no respect for other people, KTHANKSBI.

[Dec9693]

Link to this interview please?

FYI Marc is one of the nicest and most respectful people I have the pleasure to talk to every day, the criticism he gets is unfair and not deserved in the slightest as he is a top bloke.

[Marc Vaughan]

Alright no need to be an idiot about it, It was on a sega interview actually so dont get knickers in a twist mate, You shouldnt even work for sports interactive, You have no respect for other people, KTHANKSBI.

Its very unlikely to have been on a SEGA interview. If you believe I am incorrect then please post an URL to the interview you mention and I'll make certain its taken down as obviously we don't want incorrect information being posted online - but SEGA are very strict in their policies for such things.

I'm trying to be 'mellow' about things generally as its flattering to our games that people are excited and want them released .... but .... posting unsubstantiated claims about random release dates (especially incorrect ones) isn't a good way to make friends and influence people.