View Poll Results: How are you finding the difficulty on FM2012?

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  • The game is too easy.

    532 30.33%
  • The difficulty is about right.

    1,081 61.63%
  • The game is too hard.

    141 8.04%
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Thread: FM2012 difficulty.

  1. #1501
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC
    The % of headers on target is too high in 11.3/12.0. We will slightly reduce delivery but its an over simplistic solution to rely on that.
    What about headers from open play? Do you track that? I've a feeling that the set piece goals are skewing the overall statistics there. I hardly ever see a header scored from open play and that includes games including a team controlled by myself as well as the AI vs AI ones I happen to watch.
    Last edited by Äktsjon Männ; 29-11-2011 at 14:44.

  2. #1502
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    The next update has no release date set as yet but it should be weeks rather than months. In terms of this thread the main changes should be:

    1) Better share of set piece goals between AI and human teams due to better AI routines and it being harder to get a header on target under duress

    2) More effect of manager reputation vs player reputation in terms of team talk reaction and match motivation.

    3) Some small tweaks to the ME to balance things out a bit better for all teams

    4) A more balanced morale system where the high and lower ends have shorter "shelf life" for players, and it being harder to "top up" morale using tricks like team talks and team meetings. Hopefully the game will become a tad less streaky form wise.....
    Sounds good. Thx for listening to the community.

    So I guess this patch/hotfix wont be the winterupdate? Would be nice cause now I'm just waiting for a new patch.

  3. #1503
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    Paul's answers are clear and satisfactory to me.

    1. I take it to apply to set pieces, particularly corners, only. Too many goals are coming from strong DCs getting free headers int he 6 yard box. The AI recognises 'challenge goalkeeper', but doesn't seem to realise that the goalkeeper can challenge the attacking player and pluck the ball off his head more often than not.

    He did say that these are the tweaks pertinent to this thread; that surely implies there will be other fixes in addition to those mentioned here. I'm also picking up the hint that it won't be out until near Christmas at best.

  4. #1504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Äktsjon Männ View Post
    What about headers from open play? Do you track that? I've a feeling that the set piece goals are skewing the overall statistics there. I hardly ever see a header scored from open play and that includes games including a team controlled by myself as well as the AI vs AI ones I happen to watch.

    have to agree on this..i cant remember the last time i saw a header scored from open play??

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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_uk View Post
    have to agree on this..i cant remember the last time i saw a header scored from open play??
    I've had it happen a number of times. I like to get wingers crossing from deep, which leads to this from time to time.

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    I score headers from open play, but i do play with a huge powerful target man and two wingers that are like whippets so i get plenty of crosses into him.

  7. #1507
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    I'm more worried about AI vs AI. There seems to be too little headers scored from open play. If there's already too few what will happen if heading accuracy is lowered further? I hope it'll be fine and they actually track this stat but if it's going to be anything like 10.3.0 then it's going to be a real concern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    The tactics creator steps are done in code, so messing around with .tac files is unlikely to have any effect either.
    Ok Paul .But if all this has no effect, because if I cancel all_tac from the folder, and then, if I start a new career, when load new game, I get written: 4-3-3.tac error, 4-4-2.tac error, etc.etc.? So he goes to read them, and probably needs these files.
    Perhaps we are underestimating the effects of the folder inTactics C:\STEAM\steamapps\common\football manager 2012\data\tactics
    Last edited by pinuccio; 29-11-2011 at 18:28.

  9. #1509
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    Look, if it makes you feel happy, go do whatever you want to do. If I work out that it does nothing I won't hesitate to set people straight, but I've plenty more important stuff to do.

  10. #1510
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinuccio View Post
    But if all this has no effect, because if I cancel all_tac from the folder,and then, if I start a new career, when load new game, I get written: 4-3-3.tac error
    It's not unusual that a programme has some routines to check if all files are present to be sure that it was installed correctly. That does not say anything about the files and it's "usage" within the game.

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    What people need to realise is that you don't need to rely on a patch from SI to make the game harder for yourself, manage another team, set yourself small rules e.g. you can only buy players from your own continent or even country. If you still find it very easy then you're fecking good at FM!!

  12. #1512
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    Paul, I appreciated your work on improving ME. Besides the corner "bug", I also hope SI to investigate CCC created by "header from DM/CD through defense line". I scored 1 or 2 goals by such CCC every month. But I can't even remember it happened in real life. Like score in corner, sometimes this kind of CCC makes game too easy and unreal.

  13. #1513
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    Yep the header after a goalkick "bug" needs attention. Actually it existed in FM11 also.

    About the difficulty. Just promoted AFC Telford from BSP to Premier league in 2016. Didn't really have to try that hard either. I used basically just one 442 tactic. I only had to make a new tuned tactic in the Championship for home matches. Same tactic didn't work at all in home matches, but away I was winning most of them while a clear underdog on odds.

    Tactic I used worked in FM11 also and I imported it. Couple of little changes to roles and mentalities but a very basic 442.

    Couldn't sign quality players cause budget was so tight all the time. Average age of the squad is about 22-23 years old I think.

    I actually didn't want to get promoted this last season to Premier quite yet but managed it through the playoffs.

    All in all feels like the easiest FM ever. Wins don't have the same "wow I f***ing did it!"-feel to them. Hoping the next patch breaks my tactics

  14. #1514
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    The header from a goal kick issue is fixed in 12.1. Or at least reduced, as obviously anything is possible in football ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    The header from a goal kick issue is fixed in 12.1. Or at least reduced, as obviously anything is possible in football ;-)
    How exactly did you manage this without making headed goals unrealistically rare and Heading an insensitive attribute?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    How exactly did you manage this without making headed goals unrealistically rare and Heading an insensitive attribute?
    I dont see the connection. The fix is related to the behaviour of the defensive line as a goal kick is taken......

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    The header from a goal kick issue is fixed in 12.1. Or at least reduced, as obviously anything is possible in football ;-)
    This is awesome news, can't wait for 12.1 now!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    I dont see the connection. The fix is related to the behaviour of the defensive line as a goal kick is taken......
    So the defenders can still head a ball travelling in a 30 meter high arch for 60 meters with millimeter precision wherever they want on the pitch under duress from an attacker, it is just that the defenders on the other side of the pitch anticipates this better?

  19. #1519
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    So the defenders can still head a ball travelling in a 30 meter high arch for 60 meters with millimeter precision wherever they want on the pitch under duress from an attacker, it is just that the defenders on the other side of the pitch anticipates this better?
    Sorry, you lost me. If you are suggesting something specific is broken just come out with it, maybe with an example in the bugs forum? If you've done so already just post the link.

  20. #1520
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    Sorry, you lost me. If you are suggesting something specific is broken just come out with it, maybe with an example in the bugs forum? If you've done so already just post the link.
    The problem with the goalkick-ping bug is not that the defenders won't react soon enough, as you seem to suggest, but that the header from the goal kick is a fantastic through ball...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    The problem with the goalkick-ping bug is not that the defenders won't react soon enough, as you seem to suggest, but that the header from the goal kick is a fantastic through ball...
    I would have thought the ball looks better than it is because the defence is not reacting quick enough, so the defender just heads the ball forward, but because the defensive line has not reactied quick enough it looks like a great through ball.

  22. #1522
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    The problem with the goalkick-ping bug is not that the defenders won't react soon enough, as you seem to suggest, but that the header from the goal kick is a fantastic through ball...
    It's both actually..

    I'd still like to hear more information about headed goals from open play. Will these still exist after the update?

  23. #1523
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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    I would have thought the ball looks better than it is because the defence is not reacting quick enough, so the defender just heads the ball forward, but because the defensive line has not reactied quick enough it looks like a great through ball.
    It's not possible to head a high arch ball with that sort of precision. The ball is travelling down towards the player with not enough velocity for it to be possible to head it 30 yards forward into the strikers path. It's even more difficult to head it anywhere specific when you have opposition players challenging for it as well.

  24. #1524
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    The headed passes back from a goal kick are not intentional through balls. And they arent always made under duress anyway. The issue is that the defence has pushed up facing the ball so by the time they have turned to chase back the attacker is away.

    As for headed goals - I will ask beta testers to monitor it. Coming in at 14% of all goals in our latest tests for what that is worth.

  25. #1525
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    @ Äktsjon Männ

    I dunno i have seen people pick up a ball and head it 20 yards from their hands, its about technique. I dont think the headers are that accurate, they just appear that way because at times the defence is static but the attackers react very quickly to the situation so it looks like a very accurate header from the back line, but in reality its just a header forward that the defense is not ready for and out of position to defend.
    Last edited by milnerpoint; 30-11-2011 at 10:44.

  26. #1526
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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    I dunno i have seen people pick up a ball and head it 20 yards from their hands, its about technique. I dont think the headers are that accurate, they just appear that way because at times the defence is static but the attackers react very quickly to the situation so it looks like a very accurate header from the back line, but in reality its just a header forward that the defense is not ready for and out of position to defend.
    It's easy to direct a ball when you're heading it from your hands. It's almost impossible to direct a high arch ball ball forward and still get enough velocity on it. Most of the headers from goal kicks in reality go straight back in the air.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC
    As for headed goals - I will ask beta testers to monitor it. Coming in at 14% of all goals in our latest tests for what that is worth.
    That includes set pieces I assume? Thanks for the reply btw.

  27. #1527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Äktsjon Männ View Post
    It's easy to direct a ball when you're heading it from your hands. It's almost impossible to direct a high arch ball and still get enough velocity on it.
    Nonsense, you see top central defenders every week getting great distances on headers from high balls, especially if they are not under duress. My first point was not about acuracy but that it is possible to head a ball a good distance without it coming to you at velocity, heading is about technique as much as any other part of football is, if your good at heading you dont need the ball coming at you at a great speed to get power behind it.

  28. #1528
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    You don't seem to understand any of what I said. There's a huge difference between a low and high arch ball. The latter will be moving down towards the player. The angle at which you have to hit the ball to convert that velocity into forward movement is extremely precise and you'd have to hit it absolutely perfectly at the exact right time. It just does not happen in reality. Watch any real football match, pay attention to high goal kicks specifically and you'll see it for yourself. In FM these headers will move great distance at a speed that makes it possible for the striker to run onto it without even needing to control it. That's just not physically possible.
    Last edited by Äktsjon Männ; 30-11-2011 at 11:08.

  29. #1529
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    Must say i'm finding it fairly easy. First season took over Sampdoria in Serie B and won the league by 29 points which was fair enough as were were favourites to go straight back up into the Serie A, but now in my first top flight season and i'm 5 points clear of second placed Inter with 14 games to go and in the semi final of the Italian cup (for the second year running). We've been top all season long so i hope we can stay there.

    I'm not saying i'm not enjoying it, but it should not be possible to top the Serie A in your first season up even with a decent Sampdoria side. I should also state i've not bought any players in for a fee, all my new recruits were picked up on frees or loan signings.

    Having said all that i don't think the difficulty level is any easier or harder than in previous versions, and i've played 'em all but i do find it easier to motivate my team with the team talks and private chats, but this issue has already been addressed by Paul C ealier in the thread. My manager starting experience was set to 'automatic' when setting my game up so my reputation was 'regional' in the game due to starting in the Serie B but you'd have thought i was Kevin Keegan on ecstasy the way i was able to get my players motivated!
    Last edited by dave byrd; 01-12-2011 at 11:40.

  30. #1530
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    Is there a rough date set for the release of the new patch and is it gonna be save-game compatible? I have a psychological barrier to start playing a new season when knowing there are bugs affecting the game like easy team-talk and such, and I can't play until the new patch comes out, and i hope it's gonna be soon.

  31. #1531
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    I won L2 and L1 straight up with Bradford, now 5-0-0 in The Championship with a team mostly consisting of L1 CA players. By the looks of it I will go straight up to Premier League, so by that time I hope that my talented young squad will be able to gain enough CA to at least be Championship quality by then...

    Most of my ability to succeed stems from being underestimated to a huge degree by everyone while continuing to field my attacking tactic both home and away.

  32. #1532
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    I think the real problems with the corner "cheat" is poor defending, at least from what I've seen. The goals are never scored after an aerial duel, but always when the player is left totally unmarked (runs away from his marker) and can stand on the ground heading the ball into the net. Jumping skill is not required. See the below screen shot. The green arrow shows how the player moved, and the red arrows show the trajectory of the ball. For the record, I don't use these corner instructions any more, but they happen once in a while which is OK. But 25 goals per year gets silly. What are the defenders doing in this screenshot? And the GK? If Cuezva was challenged, he wouldn't score so easily.

    Last edited by Fredric Drum; 01-12-2011 at 14:07.

  33. #1533
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    Hard to argue with that specific example. Feel free to save and send me the pkm file.

  34. #1534
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    I've sent you 2 PKMs, one where Cuezva scores a corner hattrick in a silly fashion, and the match the screenshot is from. After that hattrick I had to stop corner delivery to the near post.

  35. #1535
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    Yes, with most of my corner goals, whilst they are scored by the biggest strongest DCs or strikers, they are never actually challenged and have a free header. i mentioned above that we can choose 'challenge keeper' but the keeper never comes to challenge the player heading the ball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    The headed passes back from a goal kick are not intentional through balls. And they arent always made under duress anyway. The issue is that the defence has pushed up facing the ball so by the time they have turned to chase back the attacker is away.

    As for headed goals - I will ask beta testers to monitor it. Coming in at 14% of all goals in our latest tests for what that is worth.
    Do you have the numbers for goals from corners by any chance?

  37. #1537
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    This isn't the only problem with corners. I'm sure PaulC is aware of the issue where a corner is slightly cleared, ball is played back out to corner taker, offside. It's not unrealistic once in a while but it happens with alarming regularity. It would require an inability to learn lessons for players to allow this to happen over and over. I can't train it out of them because it's not possible.

    I realise this isn't really a difficulty issue but as the conversation had turned to corners, I thought I'd raise it as I'd like to see this dealt with.

  38. #1538
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    Here's a good one. "The Chiropractor" scores with a diving header after a corner kick. In this case he wasn't marked by a defender in the first place.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike7077 View Post
    This isn't the only problem with corners. I'm sure PaulC is aware of the issue where a corner is slightly cleared, ball is played back out to corner taker, offside. It's not unrealistic once in a while but it happens with alarming regularity. It would require an inability to learn lessons for players to allow this to happen over and over. I can't train it out of them because it's not possible.

    I realise this isn't really a difficulty issue but as the conversation had turned to corners, I thought I'd raise it as I'd like to see this dealt with.
    +1, small thing perhaps, but really quite annoying

  40. #1540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike7077 View Post
    This isn't the only problem with corners. I'm sure PaulC is aware of the issue where a corner is slightly cleared, ball is played back out to corner taker, offside. It's not unrealistic once in a while but it happens with alarming regularity. It would require an inability to learn lessons for players to allow this to happen over and over. I can't train it out of them because it's not possible.

    I realise this isn't really a difficulty issue but as the conversation had turned to corners, I thought I'd raise it as I'd like to see this dealt with.
    This is easily dealt with. With delivery to further than the near post and your taker set to lurk.

  41. #1541
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    The game starts off pretty challenging. But as the years go by it gets a lot easier because you are a lot better at identifying and playing talents that the A.I, and soon you'll have a bunch of stars, but the likes of Barcelona, Manchester City, Arsenal will just have a team that would be similar to the likes of Blackburn today.

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    AI managers also have team talks,and can talk with players before the game?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cilio View Post
    AI managers also have team talks,and can talk with players before the game?
    They can and they do, they're just not very clever with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    I dont see the connection. The fix is related to the behaviour of the defensive line as a goal kick is taken......
    This fix alone could see me buying FM12, as someone who in the dim distant past played in defence I always find myself throwing my arms up in frustration when the defence continued to move forward when the goal kick or free kick from defensive third is in the air.

    Actually @ PaulC, will the changes also apply to keeper distribution from ball in hand & free kicks in the defensive third?
    Last edited by Barside; 02-12-2011 at 14:49.

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    seeing the Goal kick goals in FM2012 was a huge letdown, but it's nice to know that it's finally being fixed

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    Just had my first weekend of playing FM 2012. Overall I would say it was a good experience.

    However, the two things that I think SI need to sort as a priority are:

    1. nerfed set-pieces (especially corners) both for and against me which regulary give games that "hockey score" feel; and

    2. crosses - I'm aware of the English Premier League statistic which is that a lot of crosses fail and clearly FM should reflect this (whether due to a block by a full back at the point the cross is hit, or by an interception from a defender in the box or by the cross just being generally inaccurate).

    However, the statistic I would be interested in (and I'm sure someone must have it) is what percentage of total goals scored in the English Premier League result from "crosses" (I use " " as we could obviously argue about the definition of "cross" - I would prefer a broader definition including e.g. pull backs and shorter 'pass-type' crosses as well as the traditional deep and high). I do not know the answer, but I think this statistic would show that goals scored from crosses in real life account for a larger proportion of goals scored than (I am currently seeing in my game) in FM 2012 currently.

    Additionally, I think such statistic would also go towards demonstrating what people who know football already know, which is that (despite the overall percentage of successful crosses being low) where:

    - a crosser of the ball is a good crosser of the ball and has good technique and a good left / right peg

    AND

    - the crosser has (enough) time and (enough) space to put in a cross which is reflective of his good crossing/technique ability (this could be where the crosser is very quick and has beaten his man and created the time and space or where the opposition simply do not close him down quick enough or where the crosser hits a cross first-time on receipt of a pass from a team mate)

    AND

    - the cross is hit with pace and whip

    AND/OR

    - the cross is cut-back from the byeline inside/at the 18 yard box

    AND/OR

    - the cross is hit into the "corridor of uncertainty" which is a horizontal channel running just outside the 6 yard line

    AND

    - there are plenty of the crosser's teamate in the box

    AND

    - the crosser's teamates are all expecting the cross as the crosser is known as a good crosser

    THEN

    a cross represents one of the best opportunities to score in modern football.

    The issues I am experiencing with my team currently in FM2012 are:

    (a) the above cross does not get hit enough when the opportunity presents itself (which it regularly does) and instead the player too often elects to shoot from a narrowish angle (if in an advanced position) (or turn around and pass back to the full back, who then sometimes hits a cross first-time from deep and sometimes plays the simple ball square to the CM); and

    (b) when the above cross is hit, it does not currently offer a high enough conversion ratio.



    If SI could fix set-pieces (especially corners) and crosses, I think the ME would then be brilliant.

    Last edited by Law_Man; 05-12-2011 at 14:13.

  47. #1547
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law_Man View Post
    Just had my first weekend of playing FM 2012. Overall I would say it was a good experience.

    However, the two things that I think SI need to sort as a priority are:

    1. nerfed set-pieces (especially corners) both for and against me which regulary give games that "hockey score" feel; and

    2. crosses - I'm aware of the English Premier League statistic which is that a lot of crosses fail and clearly FM should reflect this (whether due to a block by a full back at the point the cross is hit, or by an interception from a defender in the box or by the cross just being generally inaccurate).

    However, the statistic I would be interested in (and I'm sure someone must have it) is what percentage of total goals scored in the English Premier League result from "crosses" (I use " " as we could obviously argue about the definition of "cross" - I would prefer a broader definition including e.g. pull backs and shorter 'pass-type' crosses as well as the traditional deep and high). I do not know the answer, but I think this statistic would show that goals scored from crosses in real life account for a larger proportion of goals scored than (I am currently seeing in my game) in FM 2012 currently.

    Additionally, I think such statistic would also go towards demonstrating what people who know football already know, which is that (despite the overall percentage of successful crosses being low) where:

    - a crosser of the ball is a good crosser of the ball and has good technique and a good left / right peg

    AND

    - the crosser has (enough) time and (enough) space to put in a cross which is reflective of his good crossing/technique ability (this could be where the crosser is very quick and has beaten his man and created the time and space or where the opposition simply do not close him down quick enough or where the crosser hits a cross first-time on receipt of a pass from a team mate)

    AND

    - the cross is hit with pace and whip

    AND/OR

    - the cross is cut-back from the byeline inside/at the 18 yard box

    AND/OR

    - the cross is hit into the "corridor of uncertainty" which is a horizontal channel running just outside the 6 yard line

    AND

    - there are plenty of the crosser's teamate in the box

    AND

    - the crosser's teamates are all expecting the cross as the crosser is known as a good crosser

    THEN

    a cross represents one of the best opportunities to score in modern football.

    The issues I am experiencing with my team currently in FM2012 are:

    (a) the above cross does not get hit enough when the opportunity presents itself (which it regularly does) and instead the player too often elects to shoot from a narrowish angle (if in an advanced position) (or turn around and pass back to the full back, who then sometimes hits a cross first-time from deep and sometimes plays the simple ball square to the CM); and

    (b) when the above cross is hit, it does not currently offer a high enough conversion ratio.



    If SI could fix set-pieces (especially corners) and crosses, I think the ME would then be brilliant.

    They can't until they have built a new physics engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    They can't until they have built a new physics engine.
    Could you elaborate? I haven't read the whole thread in detail and not been on the forums generally for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law_Man View Post
    Could you elaborate? I haven't read the whole thread in detail and not been on the forums generally for a while.
    Basically the ME is limited somewhat because of its age, there is only so much they can do with it in its current state, one of its failings is ball physics, it doesnt quite get things right and as such they have a problem with things like direct free kicks, there is a completely new ME in the works, which should be better at handling things like this and we should see an improvement in how free kicks are dealt with by the ME.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Basically the ME is limited somewhat because of its age, there is only so much they can do with it in its current state, one of its failings is ball physics, it doesnt quite get things right and as such they have a problem with things like direct free kicks, there is a completely new ME in the works, which should be better at handling things like this and we should see an improvement in how free kicks are dealt with by the ME.
    I'm sure crosses didn't seem so nerfed in previous years? Like pre-2008. I may be wrong.

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    Crosses have not be nerfed per se, I think SI have scaled back the ability of players getting on the end of crosses to tone down their effectiveness. This leads into Milnerpoint's comments about ball physics, crosses & in particular crosses from dead-ball situations are far too accurate in the current ME.
    Last edited by Barside; 05-12-2011 at 18:13.

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    Its too easy, i won 2 trebles in a row with Man.City very easily, then stopped playing the game. IMO there are couple of things that could be improved. Firstly, morale is not fluctuating enough, and almost all my players have superb morale, even the ones that play in like 10 games in entire season. Good players like Barry, Milner, etc.

    Other thing, its too easy to spot good players. Not to talk about youngsters, scouting should be made 100 x harder. Its completely unrealistic to just click on a player and day later know all his strengths and weaknesses, potential and everything. Its too easy to spot top talents and even more easier to poach them from the clubs.

    I just read a post that SI should consider, but unfortunately, i dont think they will, as the game just continues to be simpler and easier every year.

    Please read it, i know most of you will agree.

    "For me the main problem is that a human coach has too much information about how good a player is. Espacially if you regard youth players, there should be no market values to help the player finding the best youth. The should be a much bigger risk, that young players just stop developing even if they are seen as a good prospect. For me the best solution is, that you strip the player of his information. Scouting should be much more difficult. It should need time to really have a good look on how good a youth can be. It is ridicoulus that you just have to click a scout report button and one day later, you know so much about the player. And it would be a change which is easy to do. Sure, a bette AI would be nice, but we all know that this is not easy to do.
    But it would'nt be that much work to develope a system, where it es really difficult to spot the best youth players. And it would be much more fun if such a system is introduced. A Club which developes the player by themnselve should have a much better view of the players in comparision with a club which is just scouting them.
    So get rid of the market value (or just calculate it on nothing else than performance and Age) and make it harder to spot the youth and you have a great advancement in Difficulty and Realismn.
    A top Team should not sell good youth players at all. ManU and Barca will never sell a player if they think, he can achieve Greatness. So it would be great if good youth coaches can spot the ability much better than bad ones. it should be really important how good the youth coach can judge potential. And Team, which doesn't need money should stay with their top prospects on every decent price. But more important is a better scouting system. Without that every change to AI will either frustating for players (you cannot sign any good youth) or to easy (the player can still sign every top youth). As further addition I would like a limit for youth players, which is set by the board. A player should not be able to fill his Squad with 40+ youths, when he is not in a Top Team. That would add some challenge too, because a player must decide, which player is really important and get rid of bad ones. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    Crosses have not be nerfed per se, I think SI have scaled back the ability of players getting on the end of crosses to tone down their effectiveness. This leads into Milnerpoint's comments about ball physics, crosses & in particular crosses from dead-ball situations are far too accurate in the current ME.
    It seems like they need to tone back up their effectiveness in relation to good quality crosses. Surely there must be a happy medium between FM 2007 - get a good target man and lump it to his head and you will win, and the current crosses are nerfed so just overload the middle with players and through balls and get enough one on ones per game and you will win?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law_Man View Post
    It seems like they need to tone back up their effectiveness in relation to good quality crosses. Surely there must be a happy medium between FM 2007 - get a good target man and lump it to his head and you will win, and the current crosses are nerfed so just overload the middle with players and through balls and get enough one on ones per game and you will win?
    Any thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law_Man View Post
    Any thoughts?
    The ball physics aren't good enough regarding the simulation of velocity. This is seen especially with headers, which can be just as precise on a shot from 30 centimeters as it is from a loose ball from 30 meters. I often see players running after a lofty pass, intercept it and then do a physically impossible header 180 degrees (like an owl with an explosive charge on its brow) backwards to a teammate 20 meters behind him. Man I would love having neck muscles like that!

    This is partly why crosses are so inefficient. You can have a world-class crossing specialist whipping it in hard as hell, but in 1/100th of a second the defender materializes the appropriate distance in the air to clear the ball in the middle of the highest point of its trajectory. The same defender can't intercept a loose through ball rolling 20 centimeters from his feet...

    The ball doesn't lose velocity towards the end of its path in the air, so it isn't bothered by air resistance. 50-meter passes are risky in RL because the defenders would have time to intercept if the velocity and trajectory aren't NASA-precise. In FM any amateur footballer can do them.

    Curled shots would eventually end up with the shooter again if the video director didn't cut when it goes out of play.

    I hope that the next physics engine will be better. Looking forward to it

    Regarding the balance between crosses and through balls... there just needs to be much much fewer chances overall in the game, and especially through balls. The passing skill has been very insensitive the latest two-three FM's. It really doesn't matter if your players have 9 or 19 Passing - they will be able to create lots of chances for their teammates most of the time because the deciding factors are Creativity, Anticipation and Decisions, not Passing. Yet finely weighted through balls (which they need to be) are among the most difficult things to achieve in football.

    I also hope that the attributes are tuned to be more sensitive in general in future versions.

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    I just think we need two options for difficulty.

    The normal difficulty, and hardcore (25% more difficult)

    The normal difficulty is unrealisticly easy. I don't mind that, but it is.

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    The difficulty is ok, but the AI sucks...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SupahDonkeh View Post
    I just think we need two options for difficulty.

    The normal difficulty, and hardcore (25% more difficult)

    The normal difficulty is unrealisticly easy. I don't mind that, but it is.
    the best managers in the world needs to do everything right. this can be done without difficulty levels. that way, the learning curve must be steep if you as a beginner take over one of those clubs. more should be up to the players in lower leagues and more should be up to the manager in the top flights.

    i hate the difficulty level stuff in games like civilization. they just give the ai advantages. in skyrim they deal more damage. programing several ai's is just not a realistic option. they struggle enough with this single one as it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    Regarding the balance between crosses and through balls... there just needs to be much much fewer chances overall in the game, and especially through balls. The passing skill has been very insensitive the latest two-three FM's. It really doesn't matter if your players have 9 or 19 Passing - they will be able to create lots of chances for their teammates most of the time because the deciding factors are Creativity, Anticipation and Decisions, not Passing. Yet finely weighted through balls (which they need to be) are among the most difficult things to achieve in football.
    So, does 'passing' attribute have any importance in the ME then? If yes, what is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleventozturk View Post
    So, does 'passing' attribute have any importance in the ME then? If yes, what is it?
    It seems to be more like a tendency attribute than a skill attribute. I guess it is correctly balanced in terms of statistics, with a poor passer having more misplaced passes and fewer key passes and assists than a good passer. However, in terms of the highlights (especially on Key) there is no difference at all. Since no player, however terrible he is at passing (including having the "tries no through balls" + "short simple passes" ppms), will -never- try an advanced pass, you will see your square-footed midfield terrier hit wonderful through balls occasionally. Just as often as your silk-footed midfield playmaker with 20 passing does, if that is how your tactic is set up to create chances. The ME calculates that you have created a chance and chooses an appropriate highlight, and if that chance includes great passing and your bad passer can't miss if that chance is to be converted to a goal (which it is, when you score a goal), he won't miss.

    This is why incredibly bad teams with useless players also score fantastic goals on you. The ME can't animate errors of technique and choice and physical incapabilities when the outcome is a success.

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    I've only just won my first trophy with Stoke, 4 seasons in and it was the FA Cup.

    I still linger around mid-table in the league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucas95 View Post
    The difficulty is ok, but the AI sucks...
    Spot on there bud.

    AI have no toughness to buy top players at all. I was managing a 3rd tier english side in which i had 6 players with thom had very good premier league prospects. Over time all the players are still at my club and i am in the second premier league season and my players are fast becoming top players and none of them have had a transfer offer from top sides. They all get interested and some managers comment but no one has made an offer for them. In reality, my side would have been torn apart after the second or third season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yastru View Post
    Its too easy, i won 2 trebles in a row with Man.City very easily, then stopped playing the game. IMO there are couple of things that could be improved. Firstly, morale is not fluctuating enough, and almost all my players have superb morale, even the ones that play in like 10 games in entire season. Good players like Barry, Milner, etc.

    Other thing, its too easy to spot good players. Not to talk about youngsters, scouting should be made 100 x harder. Its completely unrealistic to just click on a player and day later know all his strengths and weaknesses, potential and everything. Its too easy to spot top talents and even more easier to poach them from the clubs.

    I just read a post that SI should consider, but unfortunately, i dont think they will, as the game just continues to be simpler and easier every year.

    Please read it, i know most of you will agree.

    "For me the main problem is that a human coach has too much information about how good a player is. Espacially if you regard youth players, there should be no market values to help the player finding the best youth. The should be a much bigger risk, that young players just stop developing even if they are seen as a good prospect. For me the best solution is, that you strip the player of his information. Scouting should be much more difficult. It should need time to really have a good look on how good a youth can be. It is ridicoulus that you just have to click a scout report button and one day later, you know so much about the player. And it would be a change which is easy to do. Sure, a bette AI would be nice, but we all know that this is not easy to do.
    But it would'nt be that much work to develope a system, where it es really difficult to spot the best youth players. And it would be much more fun if such a system is introduced. A Club which developes the player by themnselve should have a much better view of the players in comparision with a club which is just scouting them.
    So get rid of the market value (or just calculate it on nothing else than performance and Age) and make it harder to spot the youth and you have a great advancement in Difficulty and Realismn.
    A top Team should not sell good youth players at all. ManU and Barca will never sell a player if they think, he can achieve Greatness. So it would be great if good youth coaches can spot the ability much better than bad ones. it should be really important how good the youth coach can judge potential. And Team, which doesn't need money should stay with their top prospects on every decent price. But more important is a better scouting system. Without that every change to AI will either frustating for players (you cannot sign any good youth) or to easy (the player can still sign every top youth). As further addition I would like a limit for youth players, which is set by the board. A player should not be able to fill his Squad with 40+ youths, when he is not in a Top Team. That would add some challenge too, because a player must decide, which player is really important and get rid of bad ones. "
    First of all, you can't say the game is too easy when you play with City
    Second point, on scouting and youth players, I agree with you when you say transfer value should rely more on age and performance and less on PA/CA. At the moment, it seems the AI will buy any player with high CA/PA without even looking at his performances and attributes.
    I mean, you can have a 2 star player perfectly fit for the winger role, consistently performing over 7.30, and keep him forever : no big club will come and chase him. On the other hand, I've often seen 4 star players (@Barcelona, Madrid, City...) with bad attributes (for their position) and in spite of those attributes, being touted as great defenders. I can't understand how the so-called best defenders of the world can have 10 in Concentration.
    This is really where we, human players, have an advantage : we can determine whether a player will fit in our team. I find the AI really weak on this side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xavierm View Post
    First of all, you can't say the game is too easy when you play with City
    Second point, on scouting and youth players, I agree with you when you say transfer value should rely more on age and performance and less on PA/CA. At the moment, it seems the AI will buy any player with high CA/PA without even looking at his performances and attributes.
    I mean, you can have a 2 star player perfectly fit for the winger role, consistently performing over 7.30, and keep him forever : no big club will come and chase him. On the other hand, I've often seen 4 star players (@Barcelona, Madrid, City...) with bad attributes (for their position) and in spite of those attributes, being touted as great defenders. I can't understand how the so-called best defenders of the world can have 10 in Concentration.
    This is really where we, human players, have an advantage : we can determine whether a player will fit in our team. I find the AI really weak on this side.
    I think the implementation of very descriptive Player Types is the only way to allow the AI to build squads that fit their tactic(s). In other words, instead of using our intellect to determine how well a player fits a role, that should be put out there as information that is available to the AI as well. It should also be used in the player generation templates. This means that all the attributes must be "ticked off" for any given player type, not just the key ones, and all the default tactics must have the necessary roles pre-selected in each position so that they are balanced and working as intended.

    This would allow the AI to sign suitable players for their tactic and get rid of player types that are not needed. It will also make each manager less generic - you would notice the difference in how each manager sets up his team to play, unlike how it is now.

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    Making assumptions about how the ME works.....not always a great idea.

    ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    It seems to be more like a tendency attribute than a skill attribute. I guess it is correctly balanced in terms of statistics, with a poor passer having more misplaced passes and fewer key passes and assists than a good passer. However, in terms of the highlights (especially on Key) there is no difference at all. Since no player, however terrible he is at passing (including having the "tries no through balls" + "short simple passes" ppms), will -never- try an advanced pass, you will see your square-footed midfield terrier hit wonderful through balls occasionally. Just as often as your silk-footed midfield playmaker with 20 passing does, if that is how your tactic is set up to create chances. The ME calculates that you have created a chance and chooses an appropriate highlight, and if that chance includes great passing and your bad passer can't miss if that chance is to be converted to a goal (which it is, when you score a goal), he won't miss.

    This is why incredibly bad teams with useless players also score fantastic goals on you. The ME can't animate errors of technique and choice and physical incapabilities when the outcome is a success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    Making assumptions about how the ME works.....not always a great idea.

    ;-)
    Not assumptions. Observations

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    It seems to be more like a tendency attribute than a skill attribute. I guess it is correctly balanced in terms of statistics, with a poor passer having more misplaced passes and fewer key passes and assists than a good passer. However, in terms of the highlights (especially on Key) there is no difference at all. Since no player, however terrible he is at passing (including having the "tries no through balls" + "short simple passes" ppms), will -never- try an advanced pass, you will see your square-footed midfield terrier hit wonderful through balls occasionally. Just as often as your silk-footed midfield playmaker with 20 passing does, if that is how your tactic is set up to create chances. The ME calculates that you have created a chance and chooses an appropriate highlight, and if that chance includes great passing and your bad passer can't miss if that chance is to be converted to a goal (which it is, when you score a goal), he won't miss.

    This is why incredibly bad teams with useless players also score fantastic goals on you. The ME can't animate errors of technique and choice and physical incapabilities when the outcome is a success.
    This may be a bit off topic to the point you're making but...

    I don't understand the bit I bolded.

    I can understand the concept behind extended highlights and key highlights not being live-as-it-happens events. But if you watch the full game, how is that not "live"? And if it is live then the scenario you describe shouldn't arise (or be extremely rare). I've seen it mentioned numerous times that the game is pre-played. Is it documented somewhere about a match not being "live" and is instead actually played the instant you click "submit team" or "play" and thereafter all you're really seeing is a re-run of a match thats already been played in memory, in which 'some' influence can be made retrospectively if you interfere via tactical changes, shouts, and subs while you're watching that "re-run"? Or have I misunderstood it completely?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    Making assumptions about how the ME works.....not always a great idea.

    ;-)
    Well, I was hoping what he said about passing is not true. I was thinking more like: If you give exactly the same instructions to both of your MC's that have matching attributes everywhere but passing, they will try to do similar things in the ME, so for example they will attempt similar amount of through balls, but the one with better passing will connect more of these through balls to his teammates. However the succesfull through balls from these players will look equally 'silky'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post
    I've seen it mentioned numerous times that the game is pre-played. Is it documented somewhere about a match not being "live" and is instead actually played the instant you click "submit team" or "play" and thereafter all you're really seeing is a re-run of a match thats already been played in memory, in which 'some' influence can be made retrospectively if you interfere via tactical changes, shouts, and subs while you're watching that "re-run"? Or have I misunderstood it completely?
    That is how it works and I'm sure PaulC will confirm it. It doesn't matter whether you watch highlights or the full thing, it's still a replay in the sense that the game isn't calculating the match 'live' when you watch it. They key question here though is whether the match highlights are a loose representation of a pre-generated match report where animations are tacked on to events generated prior to being displayed, or if the report comes from what you're being shown through match view. I think the official word is that it's the latter, in which case BiggusD's assumptions are incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post
    Or have I misunderstood it completely?
    No, you have understood it correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Äktsjon Männ View Post
    That is how it works and I'm sure PaulC will confirm it. It doesn't matter whether you watch highlights or the full thing, it's still a replay in the sense that the game isn't calculating the match 'live' when you watch it. They key question here though is whether the match highlights are a loose representation of a pre-generated match report where animations are tacked on to events generated prior to being displayed, or if the report comes from what you're being shown through match view. I think the official word is that it's the latter, in which case BiggusD's assumptions are incorrect.
    Yes that would have been my next question! And I do hope its the latter.

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    No, you have understood it correctly.
    So if you make one tactical change the rest of the match is recalculated when that change comes into effect?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    No, you have understood it correctly.
    This is what I have been wanting to know for a time now, if a ever so small change - like giving my MC 12 notches in creative freedom instead of 11 - make the ME recalculate the final outcome of the game ( although statisticly, the outcome will be the same if the change is minor/inferior) or only if this change is big ebough to actually change things ?

    Cheers

    edit; Beaten to it

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    So if you make one tactical change the rest of the match is recalculated when that change comes into effect?
    AFAIK yes.
    www.fmbosnia.com - The game starts here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post
    This may be a bit off topic to the point you're making but...

    I don't understand the bit I bolded.

    I can understand the concept behind extended highlights and key highlights not being live-as-it-happens events. But if you watch the full game, how is that not "live"? And if it is live then the scenario you describe shouldn't arise (or be extremely rare). I've seen it mentioned numerous times that the game is pre-played. Is it documented somewhere about a match not being "live" and is instead actually played the instant you click "submit team" or "play" and thereafter all you're really seeing is a re-run of a match thats already been played in memory, in which 'some' influence can be made retrospectively if you interfere via tactical changes, shouts, and subs while you're watching that "re-run"? Or have I misunderstood it completely?
    The matches aren't pre-calculated, but everything that happens in a highllight is. This is why any changes made while in a highlight won't take place before after the highlight is finished. This is also true about Full Match highlights.

    So when the ME calculates that you have scored a goal, it looks for a series of animations that represent that goal as closely as possible (there aren't infinitely many highlights so they are all approximations in relation to the statistics). However, since that series of animations must necessarily lead to success somehow, the involved players must succeed at what they are attempting and thus disregard any technical, mental or physical limitation those players have. That is why your 9-in-technique-and-first-touch striker traps the fantastic through ball from your 7-in-passing and creativity left-back with one touch and then lobs it over the keeper even though his finishing is 10 and anticipation and flair is 4. Because they must do so since the ME calculated a goal.

    Let me just point out that I don't mean to say that that example should never happen. It is just that it happens very regularly all considered, especially if you watch only Key or Extended.

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    Yes but nothing out there says your player with 9 for technique and first touch cannot trap the fantastic through ball from your player with 7 passing and then lob it over the keeper with finishing 10 and flair 4, its just unlikely to happen on a regular basis. That scenario can happen at any level of football, the attributes more determine how often this can happen successfully.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Yes but nothing out there says your player with 9 for technique and first touch cannot trap the fantastic through ball from your player with 7 passing and then lob it over the keeper with finishing 10 and flair 4, its just unlikely to happen on a regular basis. That scenario can happen at any level of football, the attributes more determine how often this can happen successfully.
    That is how I understand it too TBH. Player with 1 one for Long Shots can score a goal from 30 meters, but it's just very unlikely and it's likely that it'll happen once in 10 seasons.
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    The animations just follow what happened in the ME, second for second.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    The ball physics aren't good enough regarding the simulation of velocity. This is seen especially with headers, which can be just as precise on a shot from 30 centimeters as it is from a loose ball from 30 meters. I often see players running after a lofty pass, intercept it and then do a physically impossible header 180 degrees (like an owl with an explosive charge on its brow) backwards to a teammate 20 meters behind him. Man I would love having neck muscles like that!

    This is partly why crosses are so inefficient. You can have a world-class crossing specialist whipping it in hard as hell, but in 1/100th of a second the defender materializes the appropriate distance in the air to clear the ball in the middle of the highest point of its trajectory. The same defender can't intercept a loose through ball rolling 20 centimeters from his feet...

    The ball doesn't lose velocity towards the end of its path in the air, so it isn't bothered by air resistance. 50-meter passes are risky in RL because the defenders would have time to intercept if the velocity and trajectory aren't NASA-precise. In FM any amateur footballer can do them.

    Curled shots would eventually end up with the shooter again if the video director didn't cut when it goes out of play.

    I hope that the next physics engine will be better. Looking forward to it

    Regarding the balance between crosses and through balls... there just needs to be much much fewer chances overall in the game, and especially through balls. The passing skill has been very insensitive the latest two-three FM's. It really doesn't matter if your players have 9 or 19 Passing - they will be able to create lots of chances for their teammates most of the time because the deciding factors are Creativity, Anticipation and Decisions, not Passing. Yet finely weighted through balls (which they need to be) are among the most difficult things to achieve in football.

    I also hope that the attributes are tuned to be more sensitive in general in future versions.
    All decent points. Hopefully SI will look at the physics side. It's a difficult one with the attributes - I think someone with the relevant attributes for a set activity of e.g. 9, shouldn't be able to do that activity very well when playing against and e.g. being marked, closed down, tackled, barged etc by much better players. However, a player with the relevant attributes of 9 playing against and e.g. being marked, closed down, tackled, barged etc byplayers with average attributes of e.g. 3 or 4, should be able to do that activity very well, in much the same way as a player with 20s in the relevant attributes should be able to do in a league where players average around 13/14.

    In relation to crosses, I downloaded popular tactic from the tactic forum last night, and all of sudden, my players seemed to be getting on the end of crosses - well, one winger would get on the end of the other wingers cross with my two SCs seemingly no-where near getting on the end of it. So it appears that my wingers in my tactic where the wingers were set to "winger" in the TC couldn't complete a cross, whereas the very same wingers in the tactic I downloaded can. I think this is a big problem in itself....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law_Man View Post
    It's a difficult one with the attributes - I think someone with the relevant attributes for a set activity of e.g. 9, shouldn't be able to do that activity very well when playing against and e.g. being marked, closed down, tackled, barged etc by much better players. However, a player with the relevant attributes of 9 playing against and e.g. being marked, closed down, tackled, barged etc byplayers with average attributes of e.g. 3 or 4, should be able to do that activity very well, in much the same way as a player with 20s in the relevant attributes should be able to do in a league where players average around 13/14.
    .
    And thats exactly how it works, the common misconception is that these players should never be able to make good passes or anything like that, but they never take the level of opposition into context, your right the player from league two should not be able to perform well against top players on a regular basis, and they wont, they may have the once in a lifetime game but on a regular basis they will struggle badly, but at their own level there is no reason why they shouldnt be able to make defence splitting passes.

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    Also worth remembering that if a player from our database is loaded into the game, he is by definition a decent footballer........even at the lowest levels we simulate.

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    After managing an Indonesian club in my current save I have to disagree with you, that was a season watching truly awful football.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    The matches aren't pre-calculated, but everything that happens in a highllight is. This is why any changes made while in a highlight won't take place before after the highlight is finished. This is also true about Full Match highlights.
    The whole match is pre-calculated, then re-calculated whenever you make a tactical change. The reason for that is because the game has to 'know' where the highlight are in order to show them to you. If the match wasn't pre-calculated, the match viewer would have no idea which parts of it were interesting.


    So when the ME calculates that you have scored a goal, it looks for a series of animations that represent that goal as closely as possible (there aren't infinitely many highlights so they are all approximations in relation to the statistics). However, since that series of animations must necessarily lead to success somehow, the involved players must succeed at what they are attempting and thus disregard any technical, mental or physical limitation those players have. That is why your 9-in-technique-and-first-touch striker traps the fantastic through ball from your 7-in-passing and creativity left-back with one touch and then lobs it over the keeper even though his finishing is 10 and anticipation and flair is 4. Because they must do so since the ME calculated a goal.
    That's precisely the opposite of what happens. The goal is scored because they have done it, not the other way around.


    Let me just point out that I don't mean to say that that example should never happen. It is just that it happens very regularly all considered, especially if you watch only Key or Extended.
    I'd suggest that the frequency at which you see such things is down to the idiosyncrasies of your own mode of playing, not the ME in itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    The next update has no release date set as yet but it should be weeks rather than months. In terms of this thread the main changes should be:


    4) A more balanced morale system where the high and lower ends have shorter "shelf life" for players, and it being harder to "top up" morale using tricks like team talks and team meetings. Hopefully the game will become a tad less streaky form wise.....
    Oh no, please don't turn the game into a mystic meg session again with me trying to guess what to say to my players to make them happy. The recent versions of FM up until 2012 drove me crazy with this kind of rubbish. Out of interest what is the point of a teamtalk if not to motivate your players, you referred to it as a 'trick', how else am I supposed to motivate players?

    I for one think this is by far the most enjoyable version of FM I have played since the late Champ Man games, I just hope listening to a few people on the forum doesn't result in changes which destroy that. Writing this has got me wondering do I have to install a patch, I use steam so I am unsure if all these patches are automatically installed of if I just can just leave it as it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoolFan View Post
    Writing this has got me wondering do I have to install a patch, I use steam so I am unsure if all these patches are automatically installed of if I just can just leave it as it is.
    Go off line and Steam won't update unless you ask it to.

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    what about defending? in fm 11, I could easily set tackling to easy for all my defensive players and they still went into challenges, when the timing was right, but now, even with tackling set to normal, my defenders just dont go into challenges. they rather watch the opposition player past away and let him often into the box than just making that one tackle to get the ball back. in my opinion, defending is just awful in this years fm. pls SI do something against defending! also crossings are as bad as in fm 10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoolFan View Post
    Oh no, please don't turn the game into a mystic meg session again with me trying to guess what to say to my players to make them happy. The recent versions of FM up until 2012 drove me crazy with this kind of rubbish. Out of interest what is the point of a teamtalk if not to motivate your players, you referred to it as a 'trick', how else am I supposed to motivate players?

    I for one think this is by far the most enjoyable version of FM I have played since the late Champ Man games, I just hope listening to a few people on the forum doesn't result in changes which destroy that. Writing this has got me wondering do I have to install a patch, I use steam so I am unsure if all these patches are automatically installed of if I just can just leave it as it is.
    talking about streaks, its really hard what Ive experienced so far. currently testing my tactics, the first half of a season I finish 1st with everton, winning 15 out of 19 games, but then, thats for 3rd time, after winter, theres always a break and I cant even win against norwich at home, while I banged them out of the pitch in the first game. then, I just think, must have something to do with the tactic, working on a newer one, then getting very nice results for the next 5,6 games, but suddenly, once again, I am starting to play weaker and weaker, conceding more and more and cant create any chances...

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    As an aside PaulC or wwfan, is this being tied into a data update, or as a standalone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    As an aside PaulC or wwfan, is this being tied into a data update, or as a standalone?
    apparently the patch is out before xmas,so it must be a standalone rather than the january transfer window update

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    Quote Originally Posted by el_magico89 View Post
    talking about streaks, its really hard what Ive experienced so far. currently testing my tactics, the first half of a season I finish 1st with everton, winning 15 out of 19 games, but then, thats for 3rd time, after winter, theres always a break and I cant even win against norwich at home, while I banged them out of the pitch in the first game. then, I just think, must have something to do with the tactic, working on a newer one, then getting very nice results for the next 5,6 games, but suddenly, once again, I am starting to play weaker and weaker, conceding more and more and cant create any chances...
    If you do very well the AI will be more respectful after a while (as a result of the match odds being turned in your favour), and then they play more defensively hoping to scrape a result.

    In that case your tactic is probably very good when the AI expects an easy game or a close, tight-fought game but struggles when there is less space to play in. It may help to reduce tempo, attacking mentality and forward runs and reduce the chances of break-aways by reducing run with ball instructions. Since the Counter-Attack button instructs your team to draw a deep-lying opponent out and then attack when there is space, you may try that one if you haven't ticked it off already.

    Another reason for your repeated lack of form after a series of good results is overconfidence setting in. This can be avoided by putting more pressure on the players when they have superb or very good morale, and by telling them to avoid complacency at half-time. Regardless of this, it is important to boost their morale after good performances - I haven't had good experiences cracking down on overconfidence prematurely so pay attention to the motivation widget for signs of overconfidence (looking complacent and playing with confidence before half-time).

    Since I won L2 and L1, now leading CH with Bradford, I'd say that to me FM12 is just as easy as FM11 (but at the same time I came 5th with Roma while my friend playing a less polished similar tactic won with Napoli). If you experience increased or reduced difficulty in FM12 compared to FM11 it is not the ME that is the reason since it is the same in both games. It is the "morale engine" that is the most likely reason you find it easy or difficult to go on streaks. What I have found regarding the team talks especially is that the feedback is less clear-cut. While in FM11 the game told you that your players were complacent, I have only seen a couple of players having that feedback from the motivation gadget yet, but it is clear as day that they couldn't give a damn when I watch the game. The feedback is "playing with confidence" while they are really playing with overconfidence. A hair-dryer/blow-torch treatment at half-time usually fixes the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    Since I won L2 and L1, now leading CH with Bradford, I'd say that to me FM12 is just as easy as FM11 (but at the same time I came 5th with Roma while my friend playing a less polished similar tactic won with Napoli). If you experience increased or reduced difficulty in FM12 compared to FM11 it is not the ME that is the reason since it is the same in both games. It is the "morale engine" that is the most likely reason you find it easy or difficult to go on streaks. What I have found regarding the team talks especially is that the feedback is less clear-cut. While in FM11 the game told you that your players were complacent, I have only seen a couple of players having that feedback from the motivation gadget yet, but it is clear as day that they couldn't give a damn when I watch the game. The feedback is "playing with confidence" while they are really playing with overconfidence. A hair-dryer/blow-torch treatment at half-time usually fixes the problem.
    As usual Biggus your posts are clever and classy.

    Just one quick question, despite you now find FM11 difficulty level pretty much the same of FM12, don't you agree it is too easy , as you did , to climb so easily among the League 2,1,CH and eventually Premier ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by grep View Post
    As usual Biggus your posts are clever and classy.

    Just one quick question, despite you now find FM11 difficulty level pretty much the same of FM12, don't you agree it is too easy , as you did , to climb so easily among the League 2,1,CH and eventually Premier ?
    It is finally exciting now in Championship. Most of my players are of L1 quality and the team's reputation is by far the lowest in the league, so I play against overconfident good teams and overconfident but low-morale and nervous bad teams, winning against both. Yet the best teams in the league prevents me from creating chances so I survive on efficiency and counter-attacks. There are 4-5 teams a few points behind me.

    When that is said, it is too easy to take lower league teams to world domination through consecutive league promotions. I did that with Southampton in FM10, Crewe and Las Palmas in FM11 and I expect to do so with Bradford in FM12. There are in my opinion a few obvious reasons for my (and hundreds of thousands other players) ability to do this:

    1. The Reputation-based match odds system makes the AI manager's players overconfident and complacent when facing a newly promoted side, and it is worse the lower your reputation is. Since Bradford's reputation is probably that of a mediocre L1 team I am huge underdogs in every match and the AI manager can't handle it! His players are complacent AND nervous, and if their morale is low as well (bottom half team), they really don't stand a chance at all.

    2. The AI generally puts too much pressure on the players, especially if the team has many fans. If I listened to my assistant I bet I would still be in L2, since he suggests a variation of For the Fans 9/10 games - a team talk my team of 14-18 Determination players can't handle at all unless they have Superb morale all over and aren't really favourites. I can't know this with certainty of course, but a quick look on their motivation gadget in-match tells me all I need to know about this issue.

    3. The AI has no long-term or short term squad management plan. They don't get rid of poor players in order to sign good players, and they don't strengthen weak areas. They don't recognize what the tactic needs in order to function optimally either, so while they are able to recognize talent they aren't looking for certain player types like I do - which is essential for team building. As I have said many times before, the AI can't improve unless they have extensive and definite information about what type/role/duty every single player in the game is. If the tactic the AI manager employs has a MC on Defend duty, that role must be filled by the best Defensive MC in the squad and not by the player with the highest CA, and consequently they need to know who can do that just like we do. Otherwise the AI will have tactical problems because of imbalances in the selected starting XI, and after the first few seasons that is precisely what happens.

    4. The AI is unable to recognize how a tactic poses a threat. This is probably the most difficult area to improve, as there are so many variations. It is much better in this ME than ever before, though, so I suppose each ME will be better at it than the one before.

    The short version:

    A. The AI is not good enough at using the team talks
    B. The AI is not good enough at squad management
    C. The AI is not good enough tactically

    So I motivate my team better, sign better players and release deadwood more efficiently, and employ a better tactic than the AI. Not because I am so good at it but because the AI managers don't use the tools at their disposal.

    Possible solutions:

    More definite Manager Attributes. Instead of the vague attributes there are now, there should be a set of attributes that defines success rate in the core areas of the game (A,B,C above) in a much more mechanic, absolute manner. 20 Motivation? He calculates the correct team talk option based on squad morale and form, match odds, opposition player quality, individual player attributes like Pressure, Loyalty, Determination and Big Matches in an input-output manner. No questions asked. It is up to SI to balance such a mechanical "perfection" with imperfections as no RL manager is the best in the world at everything. The ME also randomizes stuff so a "perfect" team talk does not mean match won (or a perfect team talk result for that matter). I think this is essential to improve the AI.

    A formalized, two-times-a-year short term plan for the upcoming season. 30.12 every club in the gaming world should decide who gets a new contract of those expiring in 6 months. Every 24.6 (in England), the day before new season update, each AI club formally decides what position needs improvement and who needs to go in order to create space for the new signing. This can't be random anymore.

    Defensive mentalities cannot be as passive as they are now, and attacking mentalities cannot be as desperate as they are now. I believe that separating these into two different mentality sliders would allow defensive work (i.e taking the ball from the opponent and covering space) to be different from the aggression associated with attacking mentality, which would allow the latter to be about finding space to run in or receive a pass in. Thus, a defensive-duty full back would have a less attacking mentality than a wing-back, but both could have the same amount of defensive responsibility - making the wing-back role more difficult and physically demanding to handle than a more limited back-role, just as it is in real life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    It is finally exciting now in Championship. Most of my players are of L1 quality and the team's reputation is by far the lowest in the league, so I play against overconfident good teams and overconfident but low-morale and nervous bad teams, winning against both. Yet the best teams in the league prevents me from creating chances so I survive on efficiency and counter-attacks. There are 4-5 teams a few points behind me.

    When that is said, it is too easy to take lower league teams to world domination through consecutive league promotions. I did that with Southampton in FM10, Crewe and Las Palmas in FM11 and I expect to do so with Bradford in FM12. There are in my opinion a few obvious reasons for my (and hundreds of thousands other players) ability to do this:

    1. The Reputation-based match odds system makes the AI manager's players overconfident and complacent when facing a newly promoted side, and it is worse the lower your reputation is. Since Bradford's reputation is probably that of a mediocre L1 team I am huge underdogs in every match and the AI manager can't handle it! His players are complacent AND nervous, and if their morale is low as well (bottom half team), they really don't stand a chance at all.

    2. The AI generally puts too much pressure on the players, especially if the team has many fans. If I listened to my assistant I bet I would still be in L2, since he suggests a variation of For the Fans 9/10 games - a team talk my team of 14-18 Determination players can't handle at all unless they have Superb morale all over and aren't really favourites. I can't know this with certainty of course, but a quick look on their motivation gadget in-match tells me all I need to know about this issue.

    3. The AI has no long-term or short term squad management plan. They don't get rid of poor players in order to sign good players, and they don't strengthen weak areas. They don't recognize what the tactic needs in order to function optimally either, so while they are able to recognize talent they aren't looking for certain player types like I do - which is essential for team building. As I have said many times before, the AI can't improve unless they have extensive and definite information about what type/role/duty every single player in the game is. If the tactic the AI manager employs has a MC on Defend duty, that role must be filled by the best Defensive MC in the squad and not by the player with the highest CA, and consequently they need to know who can do that just like we do. Otherwise the AI will have tactical problems because of imbalances in the selected starting XI, and after the first few seasons that is precisely what happens.

    4. The AI is unable to recognize how a tactic poses a threat. This is probably the most difficult area to improve, as there are so many variations. It is much better in this ME than ever before, though, so I suppose each ME will be better at it than the one before.

    The short version:

    A. The AI is not good enough at using the team talks
    B. The AI is not good enough at squad management
    C. The AI is not good enough tactically

    So I motivate my team better, sign better players and release deadwood more efficiently, and employ a better tactic than the AI. Not because I am so good at it but because the AI managers don't use the tools at their disposal.

    Possible solutions:

    More definite Manager Attributes. Instead of the vague attributes there are now, there should be a set of attributes that defines success rate in the core areas of the game (A,B,C above) in a much more mechanic, absolute manner. 20 Motivation? He calculates the correct team talk option based on squad morale and form, match odds, opposition player quality, individual player attributes like Pressure, Loyalty, Determination and Big Matches in an input-output manner. No questions asked. It is up to SI to balance such a mechanical "perfection" with imperfections as no RL manager is the best in the world at everything. The ME also randomizes stuff so a "perfect" team talk does not mean match won (or a perfect team talk result for that matter). I think this is essential to improve the AI.

    A formalized, two-times-a-year short term plan for the upcoming season. 30.12 every club in the gaming world should decide who gets a new contract of those expiring in 6 months. Every 24.6 (in England), the day before new season update, each AI club formally decides what position needs improvement and who needs to go in order to create space for the new signing. This can't be random anymore.

    Defensive mentalities cannot be as passive as they are now, and attacking mentalities cannot be as desperate as they are now. I believe that separating these into two different mentality sliders would allow defensive work (i.e taking the ball from the opponent and covering space) to be different from the aggression associated with attacking mentality, which would allow the latter to be about finding space to run in or receive a pass in. Thus, a defensive-duty full back would have a less attacking mentality than a wing-back, but both could have the same amount of defensive responsibility - making the wing-back role more difficult and physically demanding to handle than a more limited back-role, just as it is in real life.
    All I can really say is

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    First of all, you can't say the game is too easy when you play with City
    Second point, on scouting and youth players, I agree with you when you say transfer value should rely more on age and performance and less on PA/CA. At the moment, it seems the AI will buy any player with high CA/PA without even looking at his performances and attributes.
    I mean, you can have a 2 star player perfectly fit for the winger role, consistently performing over 7.30, and keep him forever : no big club will come and chase him. On the other hand, I've often seen 4 star players (@Barcelona, Madrid, City...) with bad attributes (for their position) and in spite of those attributes, being touted as great defenders. I can't understand how the so-called best defenders of the world can have 10 in Concentration.
    This is really where we, human players, have an advantage : we can determine whether a player will fit in our team. I find the AI really weak on this side.
    I think the implementation of very descriptive Player Types is the only way to allow the AI to build squads that fit their tactic(s). In other words, instead of using our intellect to determine how well a player fits a role, that should be put out there as information that is available to the AI as well. It should also be used in the player generation templates. This means that all the attributes must be "ticked off" for any given player type, not just the key ones, and all the default tactics must have the necessary roles pre-selected in each position so that they are balanced and working as intended.

    This would allow the AI to sign suitable players for their tactic and get rid of player types that are not needed. It will also make each manager less generic - you would notice the difference in how each manager sets up his team to play, unlike how it is now.
    All great points, even the one about City :P
    I expected a semblance of difficulty at least in those first seasons when team is not gelled, i didnt expect to walk with all trophies 2 times in a row. With such a great but non experienced, non- gelled team. Its not about that team to be honest, its the same in at least 3 previous FM versions. We all know what to do better then AI managers and thats recognition of key player attributes and potential based on them. I think that second quoted response would actually improve AI player picking and transfers by a significant margin.

    Also about scouting, could SI at least make how long it takes to recieve reports optional, like hide/show attributes ?
    Its not a big thing, but i think it will increase realism, you just cant get a scouting report in one day telling you all that you need to know about player.

    PaulC, can you please read this and comment when you can, im dying to know what SI thinks about this ideas, as i dont feel match engine is broken at all and am perfectly satisfied with it, its things out of it that are spoiling the game for me and many others in my opinion.

    Paul, can you please read this posts ?

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    I am reading them, but I don't work on the transfers or the newgens so its not really for me to make comment here.

    But I do believe AI team selection needs reworking for a future release. We need to get the balance right between selecting roles to fit the players and players to fit the roles

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    Or at least make it a bit harder for ourselves ? In my opinion, games kinda lack that feeling of unknown, will some footballer flop or make a stardom cause we have too many information about him on our hands and some of them could be more concealed or harder to get at least. Almost all of that is tied to attributes showing, but thats a story for another day and its pretty radical idea so i wont bother posting it.

    Thank you for commenting, i only saw you from SI team here so sorry for trouble, i think all people commenting here want only to improve the beautiful game at least with their ideas, which may be wrong for someone else though (i read a couple i personally dont agree with)

    All in all, glad youre recognizing some of them as legitimate, and i fully agree with you on some previous posts that player morale needs to fluctuate a bit more and im glad youre including that in your next patch. Thing like that will make me continue my save definitely.

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    Exclamation what about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by patonki View Post
    1st season with Lille: won Ligue 1 without breaking a sweat. 2nd season: won Ligue 1 and Champions league (Chelsea, Tottenham, Barca and hammered Real in the final 2-0, with mediocre squad). 3rd season ongoing, not fun anymore. So yeah, based on my first serious save this game really seems frustratingly easy.
    try go with other teams that cant get the best players at once? Like go to league's thats not in the top lik bottom div in england/germany/spain/italy etc that will become a challange :P sry if some bad grammar :P

  98. #1598
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    It is about right to me and that what i need..

  99. #1599
    Sports Interactive PaulC's Avatar
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    Regarding attributes showing - you could turn on the graphical representation.....

  100. #1600
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    Regarding attributes showing - you could turn on the graphical representation.....
    Its still too much info given at a glance in my opinion. The other alternative, which is becoming quite popular now if downloads are anything to go by, is playing with an attribute hiding skin. Its a bit extreme for most, but it really does add another dimension of challenge to the game once you get used to it. I've been playing attribute-blind since FM11 (which made the easy game thing even more disheartening, although I never mentioned that little fact in my earlier rants!).

    I think the problem is we have one extreme or the other; either you play with attributes showing, wether numerical or as coloured bars, or without them showing at all. Some optional middle-ground would satisfy those who like to play with some meaningful fog of war without going completely blind to them. Coloured bars instead of numerical values isn't it as its still too easy to see almost instantly which players are excellent, good, average, or poor, and in which categories. Playing without any attributes showing (or adding a better fog of war) means you have to use all the other tools at your disposal (scouts, coach reports, trials etc), and even go scout the players yourself by watching them play before deciding wether they're worth a bid etc. So it adds more depth and longevity to the whole [human] team buidling aspect of the game.
    Last edited by Erimus1876; 08-12-2011 at 08:57.

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