FM2012 difficulty.

[Keyzer Soze]

The AI cant look at players like you do and tailor it's instructions to them. It sees players as an Age a position a reputation and a CA.If you imagine in their prime Beckham and Giggs having the same CA and being RM LM respectively the AI would assign them both the same instruction while you could examine their attributes and set different instructions to get the best from both of them.
Lots of problems with AI squad building can in my opinion only be addressed by rewriting the AI to look at players in a much more detailed and human manor.

I dont think that the AI its so limited, but i agree that we have tools to take the best from the players.
I dont think that the AI would give Giggs and Beckham the same instruction, but i'm sure that it will give them standard instructions from the TC (winger with attack duty to giggs, and perhaps wide midfielder with support duty to Beckham).
We, human managers, work from those standard instruction but tweak them according the player attributes.
This could be the main reason why players play better for human teams. Despite, i still believe that we must not generalize because like i said in my post about Nicolas Gaitan, there could be logical reasons why the player plays worst in the AI team.

Perhaps this could be the next step for the AI: starting from the standard TC instructions, have the ability to tweak them to take the best from the players. (this is valid for the team and player instructions)

[el_magico89]

does anyone else experience a problem like your own players dont wanna play for your, because they think, "the lack of experiences could damage the team"??? Ive started a save with everton, my managerial reputation is very low, from the first day on, almost the whole team was struggling to motivate themselves to play for me. now 10 games played, 26 out of 30 points, leading the table, qtr finals in carling cup and still there are several players with the same problem. its really annoying, as I cant get the best out of my team, when some players are not motivated. in fm 11, this problem was very quickly solved, mostly after the first 4-5 friendlies, very you really convinced everyone or at least after the first couple of games. but in fm 12, in another save, even reaching the 3rd place with everton and winning the carling cup, in the next season, there were still players, who had motivation problems, because of my low reputation. what do you guys normally do? do you set your reputation to high when you manage a pl team?

nobody experiencing this kind of a problem?

[hursty2]

The AI cant look at players like you do and tailor it's instructions to them. It sees players as an Age a position a reputation and a CA.If you imagine in their prime Beckham and Giggs having the same CA and being RM LM respectively the AI would assign them both the same instruction while you could examine their attributes and set different instructions to get the best from both of them.
Lots of problems with AI squad building can in my opinion only be addressed by rewriting the AI to look at players in a much more detailed and human manor.

Where is this from? I take it is an assumption of your own, the AI is far more complex than this.

[axehan1]

nobody experiencing this kind of a problem?

it took me as man utd manager until the first weekof feb for this to dissapear from their reports.so keep going mate it wont last for much longer.

[Spurs_Q8]

Spurs

Can you just confirm tactic used, teamtalks and goals from corners.

PS

Anty transfers?

tactics: depends on home and away
home games : Balanced/Standard, more direct, more aggressive, ( all others Default )
away games : Counter, default or short ( depends on the size of opponent pitch as i'm using scouting reports ) more aggressive ( sometimes i'm using deep defensive line if the strikers are pacy )

team-talks, the pre-season i was very careful with the players who i trust considering i'm playing touch games and lose heavily should be expected ( the others which i listed them asked to prove their worth ), the squad wasn't ready at the start of the season, the morale very down to earth, losing 1-4 away from home in the opening day, then first win and little by little ( with more additions ) and morale and results improved.

never using set-pieces and corner things.

signings : click here

full squad : click here

the most important notice about this thread - which i failed to explain in last posts do to my average English - : i used to play in this level before in other versions with teams like Droylsden ( 3th place predicated ) , Farsley ( poor team ) , Stafford ( Mid-table team ), and yes i got promoted promoted with them, Droylsden in first year by playoff, Stafford can't remember, but Farlsey needed three years and first year i think mid-table .. I've relgeted with Bognor Regis i think in FM2010 ?

i used to take so many ours to improve my teams in the past, but in this version, i used to play so less than before due to personal life changed, yet i find it's easier. Really hope i'm mistaken about this version.

[deathspawn666]

only need 2 things to win most games: corner exploit (yeah use it because AI will use it too), fast strikers (will own a lot since defenders are morons and won't tackle)

[bendhondt]

Too easy for me.

I started in the french league with Lille. I won the Ligue 1 (not really amazing as Lille won in real life the previous season). But my main problem is I won the Champions League !!! And the final was Lille - Marseille ! It will NEVER happen in real life.

Last 16 I have eliminated Real Madrid (2-1 away & 3-2 home)
Quarter : Arsenal (1-0 home & 3-4 away)
Semi : Manchester U (1-0 home & 1-1 away with last minute goal).
Final : Marseille (3-2 with last minute own goal).

It can be a "perfect season", something who will never happen again. But everytime I play a "big" team, I am not really worry. My guys are really good ! And marseille did it too !

FM is too easy in my opinion. I'd like to see it more realistic. The AI of the other clubs is just rubbish. They can't keep yound players, they sell them too easly and when they have the money, they do not invest it nicely.

Often french clubs buy +32y players with high wage with 3y contract to put them in the reserve as soon they are 34y (even if they are good.)

I think it will be good for SI to work on this side of the game : the AI.

Also, something I really hate : when you refuse an offer and you select "refuse all offers" and the same club come back to you with a.. lower offer 1 week or 1 month later. Another problem with the AI. It's more A than I ;-)

[hagakure]

I want to play FM 2012, but I dont think we wil get any new patch soon so I decided to make a few home rules to make the game more challenging.

- dont use the search possibilities for players, use only your own scouts
- dont use the corner exploit
- start to play in low division, take a weak team
- reset moral for the players after each 6-7 games through FMRTE
- make your own tactics and training

anything else?

[Spurs_Q8]

I want to play FM 2012, but I dont think we wil get any new patch soon so I decided to make a few home rules to make the game more challenging.

- dont use the search possibilities for players, use only your own scouts
- dont use the corner exploit
- start to play in low division, take a weak team
- reset moral for the players after each 6-7 games through FMRTE
- make your own tactics and training

anything else?

I'm always playing that LLM way

really makes the game more fun.

[vlacke]

I am new to this forum, but a veteran in the game itself, have been playing since 01/02.
I voted that it is easier than it should be.
I am of the opinion as some people have stated already in this thread, that AI needs improvements definitely especially in the tactical department and even more so in the transfer market.
There are situations when a big team (Chelsea etc. for example) is doing badly in the league, like mid table, and have over 150 million euros for transfer budget but they just aren't buying anything good, less alone quality.

[The Threadstarter]

Being (over) confident in press conferences can do wonders, at least I think.

edit:replying to hagakure

[wwfan]

only need 2 things to win most games: corner exploit (yeah use it because AI will use it too), fast strikers (will own a lot since defenders are morons and won't tackle)

I think the testing going on around this thread has pretty much conclusively proved that the AI does not use a corner exploit.

[Siorac86]

I can't believe people actually suggest the game should be easier.

It is incredibly hard and frustrating. I got promoted after a very difficult season and in the top flight it seems that we are simply not allowed to win. In 9 games so far we hit the woodwork 10 times; in our last three games we created a total of 11 clear cut chances and got ONE point. I'm sick of totally outplaying the opposition and losing, especially as it never happens the other way around.

My tactics are best suited for my players but it feels like FM wants to force something else on me, possibly 4-4-2 as every team seems to use that. I'm sick of seeing my strikers constantly hitting the post or simply missing the target from 2 yards (we are still winless because in our last away game one of them did just that at 2-2 in the 90th minute; we conceded from the attack after the goalkick.) Morale is good (seriously, it is actually good because we are playing well) and there's just no way of knowing what's wrong, apart from the fact that my striker with 14 finishing, 13 composure, 15 acc and 15 pace - which is comfortably good enough in the Hungarian Division I - is yet to score despite being one on one with the keeper two or three times in every game.

FM 2012 is definitely the most difficult FM yet. Even without corners being totally lethal, you just can't defend against them.

[ShirazS]

I think that the FM12 difficulty level is close to being just right aside from the Corner exploit and the AI squad management. When SI sort those two out, I think it will be perfect

[William.Hua]

It's a little bit easier than I expected, acceptable anyway.

[Neo14]

I just finished my second season with Marseille in France and the game is too easy.
I won the championship two times, 2 cups of France and 2 champions league.

Do you find this realistic??

[Jimmy_Jambo]

I just finished my second season with Marseille in France and the game is too easy.
I won the championship two times, 2 cups of France and 2 champions league.

Do you find this realistic??

About as realistic as an unknown person like yourself managing such a top side in France.

[PaulC]

I just finished my second season with Marseille in France and the game is too easy.
I won the championship two times, 2 cups of France and 2 champions league.

Do you find this realistic??

Can I ask what starting reputation you selected please?

[electric_boogaloo]

my first impression is too easy.

i've only been playing a few days and haven't completed a season yet but i'm forest and six points clear in the championship with a very small squad and no money.

we'll see in the premier league i suppose but there's no good reason why my team should be playing as well as they are.

[PaulC]

Could I do a quick straw poll please?

1) Do you find it too easy, hard or ok?

2) What was your starting reputation and which club are you managing?

Cheers,
Paul

[milnerpoint]

Finding it ok, managing Aberdeen, starting rep was auto i think.

[andu1]

Finding it very easy, managing Steaua Bucharest, reputation is automatic. Won last 3 titles in a row.

I am noticing a large amount of goals scored, too many games end with scores like 5-1, 5-0, 3-3 etc.

[BiggusD]

I am on both sides of the fence.

I started with Bradford and won L2 easily, now I am in the lead in L1 too and I feel comfortable I will be able to go straight up to PL.

Then I started a two-player game with a friend, he Napoli me Roma. He won Serie A comfortably while I ended 5th. Same tactic as with Bradford, tried and tested from FM11. I just couldn't get the forwards scoring consistently, which is a little disappointing. Roma's reputation is high but team quality is quite poor, especially up front.

In both games I started with automatic reputation, which ended up as Regional.

[shirajzl]

1) I'm finding it ok. The league is a bit easier (as in real life), but on European stage I'm far from being competitive (again, as in real life).

2) International player, Hajduk (Croatia)

[alexyfoot]

1) Too easy

2) Starting rep - Semi-Pro - Teams Napoli, Darmstadt, Hoffenheim (all started from season 1, not a continuos career).

[Matej]

1st save: Everton, easy diff, auto rep. won champ league and 3 times premiership in i think 5 seasons.

2nd save : Metz , ok diff, sunday rep. I started unemployed, got job in Metz in november i think. they where 19th at that time and i managed to be 10th till the end of season. Problem there was that i couldnt sell players( i put around 20 players on transfer list, whole B squad plus some from A squad) and they had 0 money to spend. So i had to use their players and change my fav tactic 4-1-2-1-2 to 442.

[omar bassiony]

its hard and need one like the mo to win in it!!!!

[lee_uk]

1. seems ok up to now
2. sunday league rep,managing munster liga 3

[Erimus1876]

Bishops Stortford (Demo).
Prediction 20th.
Reputation Semi-Pro.
Quit after 14 games, W11 D1 L2... Too Easy.

Hartlepool United.
Prediction 13th.
Reputation Automatic.
Quit in February 2012, 8 points clear at the top of L1.... Far Too Easy.

Barnet.
Prediction 24th.
Reputation Automatic.
Quit after 18 games, top 6, best defence, 24 points clear of my predicted 24th spot... Too Easy

Barnet #2.
Prediction 24th.
Reputation Automatic.
Quit after 15 games, top 8, 17 points ahead of 24th... Too Easy.

South Bank AFC (custom league structure with Northen League Div.1).
Prediction 22nd.
Reputation Sunday League.
Finished 2nd in the league... Too Easy

Napoli.
Prediction 8th.
Reputation Automatic.
Quit after 16 games, was 6th in Serie A... Doing as expected.


Despite 5 attempts with teams predicted to struggle, I've not had a relegation battle yet.

[Neo14]

Can I ask what starting reputation you selected please?

I don't change the starting réputation (automatic)
I have all CM and FM and seriously the game is very easy.

My first season with Marseille without transfer because no money:
47 wins 59 games -----
Unbeaten in L1
Champion in L1
Winner of the CDF
Champions League winner against Barca

My second seson with Marseille:
Champion in L1
Winner of the CDF
Winner in champions league against Real Madrid

Overall:
128 games for 100 wins and 20 draws and 8 loses.

In real life, never Marseille or french club will be able to win the champions league in near futur.

I put my save in your FTP if you want to see.

FM 2012 is not too easy for beginners and it's normal, but for older players is very very easy.

It would be interesting if we could choose the level of difficulty at the beginning of the game (hard to older, natural or easy for beginners), like all video games.
At least everyone would be happy.

[hursty2]

Could I do a quick straw poll please?

1) Do you find it too easy, hard or ok?
Ok, 3rd season and I'm sat 10th with Stoke. 12th in the first season then 7th in the second.
2) What was your starting reputation and which club are you managing?
I started with a professional footballer rep.

Cheers,
Paul

Here we go.

[ShirazS]

Could I do a quick straw poll please?

1) Do you find it too easy, hard or ok?

I think it is ok, not too easy and not too hard. Goals from corners definitely need looking at though, they are too frequent.

2) What was your starting reputation and which club are you managing?

Automatic Reputation, managing Dortmund

Cheers,
Paul

Answers above

[Luke1988]

Could I do a quick straw poll please?

1) Do you find it too easy, hard or ok?

2) What was your starting reputation and which club are you managing?

Cheers,
Paul

1) Far too easy - to the point where I can’t get into this years version for the first time ever. Which is a massive shame as this year’s version does have the potential to be the best ever!

2) First game - Sunday League Rep - I was flying high with Bury in league one without any significant changes. The target was to avoid relegation and there I was comfortable brushing aside the top teams with players twice as good as Bury's.

Second game - Professional Footballer Rep - Started unemployed. Took over sheff united in league one in October who were in the relegation zone after sacking their manager. First ten game were won 9 drew 1 and in most games I was having 20+ shots. Total turnaround without changing a thing! The final straw was the eleventh game (and the last game I will play on this years version unless a fix is sorted) where I was 1-0 up in a league match at 5th placed Yeovil. I then had a man sent off at the beginning of the second half but still went on to score three more goals and win the game 4-0 - ridiculous.

I understand that some people might enjoy it being easier however the one thing that FM has over all of its rivals and makes the game so addictive is the realism of it, unfortunately, this years doesn’t have that atall due to it being far too easy.

I've given up on this game until something is sorted. Really disappointed.

[tut]

OK, the long discussion /14 Pages/ made it clear that the game is too easy for 30% of playing people and should be fixed anyway. Dear SI Team, can you advise me is something already done in this course, and when can we expect some results ? This issue becomes frustrating for me, because it's one month already gone, and I can't still playing the game, I have bought. Actually playing the game is not the most important thing in my life, but I got used to have my moments of entertainment after work and I want them back...So, please, tell me is the work on a patch in progress..and when approx. can we see the good job done?

[Mike7077]

Could I do a quick straw poll please?

1) Do you find it too easy, hard or ok?

2) What was your starting reputation and which club are you managing?

Cheers,
Paul

1) I find FM12 as hard as FM has ever been. I would say the difficulty is about right, though.
2) I'm managing Panathinaikos and starting reputation was "Professional Footballer". Didn't win the title in the first season. Just about managed to come second and then win the European places play-off. Second season I'm top but hardly pulling away. European competition is impossible.

Frankly, I'm amazed that 30% of people think the game is too easy. I must be really bad at this.

[PaulC]

Yes, we are working hard behind the scenes to find a balance that will keep everyone happy. Bear in mind more people in this poll said the level was ok than too easy. We get it wrong and suddenly its 30% or more saying the game is now too hard!

[lee_uk]

rather too hard than too easy

[PaulC]

rather too hard than too easy

Personally I agree, but there are plenty of people who have paid money for the game who might not agree.

As I said, we need to find a balance. Especially when updating a product people already paid for based on a demo in many cases.

[alexyfoot]

Personally I agree, but there are plenty of people who have paid money for the game who might not agree.

As I said, we need to find a balance. Especially when updating a product people already paid for based on a demo in many cases.

That is why some people advocate for introducing difficulty levels, I can't see anyone disagreeing with SI on the fact that they want new customers for the game rather than focusing solely on us, experienced guys. From the fact that there is no sound coming from you guys on theme, I presume it is not entirely possible. Maybe if you could increase the effect of manager starting rep even more, that would help balance the game for all. I am not sure how much you can tweak in it but should be a good starting point.

On a side note - can I change my ability in FMRTE so that I am "less capable" of managing my team as I am already in year 3 and I realize I should have started with a sunday-league footballer rather than semi-pro to make it tougher. Would changing my CA have any effect?

[hagakure]

OK, the long discussion /14 Pages/ made it clear that the game is too easy for 30% of playing people and should be fixed anyway. Dear SI Team, can you advise me is something already done in this course, and when can we expect some results ? This issue becomes frustrating for me, because it's one month already gone, and I can't still playing the game, I have bought. Actually playing the game is not the most important thing in my life, but I got used to have my moments of entertainment after work and I want them back...So, please, tell me is the work on a patch in progress..and when approx. can we see the good job done?

I guess that there wil be a patch around mid desember/before Christmas and than a a new patch at the end of february with database update.

[schiv85]

Im finding it ok.

Started off with Professional Footballer rep with Newcastle.

1st Season 10th and FA Cup win.
2nd Season finished 2nd and no trophy
3rd Season 7th and FA Cup and League Cup double.

I find the domestic cup games easy, essentially because teams field weakened sides and ive been very lucky with the teams ive been drawn against.
My 3rd season FA Cup win was against a Championship level Sheff Utd for instance.

Just started 4th season and im yet to win in my first 4 competitive games, despite morale being sky high after the previous season.

Thoroughly enjoying FM12, more so than any of the games since CM01/02, and thats saying something!!

[hatmab123]

Personally I agree, but there are plenty of people who have paid money for the game who might not agree.

As I said, we need to find a balance. Especially when updating a product people already paid for based on a demo in many cases.

Don't forget those loyal customers who paid for the game based upon years of enjoying the previous versions who are finding it far too easy - like me!

[Mike7077]

The scary thing is that if people manage to convince SI it's definitely too easy, I may as well give up entirely. I won't stand a chance if the game gets any harder.

[PaulC]

Well we learnt a long time ago that we cant please everyone all of the time......

[Exius]

I think it's very difficult to find a balance between too easy and too hard. I suggested once in whishlist thread an idea about coaching attributes for human manager. It could help in this situation. For example, Motivating attribute defines how good squad reacts to your team talks, Level of discipline - how strict they follow your tactical instructions and so on... The higher reputation you choose starting a game, the higher CA and attributes you'll have, so the game will be easier to you. And so everybody could choose the difficulty level that suits them.

[Mike7077]

Well we learnt a long time ago that we cant please everyone all of the time......

Of course you can't. I would never suggest that you could. What I'm struggling to follow with FM12 is that there seems to be a fairly strong body of opinion that the game is too easy this time round. But I can detect no difference. It's not harder than past versions, but I'm doing no better than I've done in the past. So I'm finding it hard to understand what people have found that makes the game so easy to them because it's just not happening for me.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Yes, we are working hard behind the scenes to find a balance that will keep everyone happy. Bear in mind more people in this poll said the level was ok than too easy. We get it wrong and suddenly its 30% or more saying the game is now too hard!

Yes but how many of those have found previous versions difficult but now find FM12 more 'user friendly'?

[milnerpoint]

Of course you can't. I would never suggest that you could. What I'm struggling to follow with FM12 is that there seems to be a fairly strong body of opinion that the game is too easy this time round. But I can detect no difference. It's not harder than past versions, but I'm doing no better than I've done in the past. So I'm finding it hard to understand what people have found that makes the game so easy to them because it's just not happening for me.

your in the same boat as me mike, i havent found this version any easier, infact the opposite at times.

[Neo14]

Yes, we are working hard behind the scenes to find a balance that will keep everyone happy. Bear in mind more people in this poll said the level was ok than too easy. We get it wrong and suddenly its 30% or more saying the game is now too hard!

That's why, if we can choose a level difficulty, everyone will be happy.

[dreghorn2]

The problem i have is what exactly will be changed to make it more difficult, or less for that matter?

It should be difficult because you are taking a small team in a big league and your players are not as good, or your budget too small, etc..

The game is supposed to be tactic and resource driven. We are supposed to excel, or fail, because of our tactical acumen or excellent transfer dealings, or in either case, lack thereof.

So what exactly is to be tweaked to make the game 'correct?'

In my humble opinion the game took a dangerous turn with the addition of morale, things simply have not been the same since. Even with previous additions you could easily overchieve, use players out of position, use crazy formations etc.. if you had your team talks correct and figured out your teams individual personalities it made them too overpowered.

If SI is looking to make an adjustment here it seems they are looking at adjusting morale specifically to try and stop long win streaks etc.. this simply shows just how overpowered morale actually is. In addition unfortunately until the AI gets a serious revamp long term games with top clubs are simply a waste of time.

Its' too bad i've really enjoyed this game for the last decade or so, but it does need a serious overhaul. Tactics have to matter again!

[dreghorn2]

That's why, if we can choose a level difficulty, everyone will be happy.

I can't imagine how they could implement difficulty levels.

I'd be happy if there was an option to completely turn off morale effects.

[BiggusD]

The scary thing is that if people manage to convince SI it's definitely too easy, I may as well give up entirely. I won't stand a chance if the game gets any harder.

Any changes should be to the balance of the game, not "difficulty". Once you have achieved a superb-morale-fueled run of winning streaks the game IS easy. The game IS also pretty damn hard once you have lost a few games in a row; from that point and forward bad luck turns into poor-morale-fueled losing streaks and that is really hard to turn around. Hell, there are many examples of the AI failing to cope with that as well in my saves. Though not as many as in FM11.

If you are disliked by the squad because of poor reputation, don't have a tactic that makes a huge difference and manage to lose the first match of the season, I bet you will struggle to turn things around.

Similarly, if you are adored by the squad, have a tactic that makes a huge difference and win the first match of the season the game should be fairly easy.

It shouldn't be as clear-cut as that. I hope that's what SI is trying to tweak. So if you cannot find that super-form but manage to avoid poor form, you really shouldn't notice a difference.

I both think and hope that any changes to the way AI copes with your tactics and set up their own tactics are part of a revamp of the whole ME including ball physics.

[PaulC]

We are doing the following as things stand:

- Reduce extremes of player morale across the game.

- Increase team talk and motivational penalties when a manager is a far smaller name than the player(s).

- Fix selected issues and inconsistencies in the match engine and AI tactics. For example AI use of touchline instructions has been tweaked a bit. Also, AI use of set pieces has been improved, while the overall effectiveness of these set pieces has been reduced for all.

It's all in testing now until we are happy to release it into the wild. No timeline as yet.

[manutdfan123]

Thank you Paul I really appreciate you doing this for us.

[ReggaeBwoy]

We are doing the following as things stand:

- Reduce extremes of player morale across the game.

- Increase team talk and motivational penalties when a manager is a far smaller name than the player(s).

- Fix selected issues and inconsistencies in the match engine and AI tactics. For example AI use of touchline instructions has been tweaked a bit. Also, AI use of set pieces has been improved, while the overall effectiveness of these set pieces has been reduced for all.

It's all in testing now until we are happy to release it into the wild. No timeline as yet.

Even thoguh I didnt see the 'easyness' experienced by others I appreciate this. I know you have said no timeline yet but can you give an idea of how many weeks or months or so as I dont't want to start a save now then quit (which I will do) when the new patch is out, so I can no if I should just wait rather than continuing my save.

[Keyzer Soze]

Just finish my second season.

Playing with Benfica (as in FM2011), reputation automatic (as in FM2011), using the same tactic i created for FM2011.
In domestic competitions (league and cup) i've been dominating (as in FM2011) winning in both years.

In Champions league, in both years knockout in the quarter finals. In FM2011 i reach the final in the first year and won the CL in the second year.

From this 2 season, this is what i feel:

- It's harder to get a clean sheet (i've concede +30 goals in comparasion with FM2011)
- The amount of goals scored is similar
- It's harder to maintain a winning sequence (even with all my players with great morale)
- It's more common to get that odd lost against a really small team
- The AI team from my domestic competition lost more points (in comparasion with FM2011), wich leads to me winning the league with a bigger point gap.

In conclusion: for me, untill now, FM2012 has the same difficulty that FM2011, if not a little harder

[FestyF]

Well we learnt a long time ago that we cant please everyone all of the time......

.....with our current approach.

Keep your current approach going for the majority but provide some ability to mod the game for the minority (hardcore gamers?) and everyone will be happy !!

[ShirazS]

We are doing the following as things stand:

- Reduce extremes of player morale across the game.

- Increase team talk and motivational penalties when a manager is a far smaller name than the player(s).

- Fix selected issues and inconsistencies in the match engine and AI tactics. For example AI use of touchline instructions has been tweaked a bit. Also, AI use of set pieces has been improved, while the overall effectiveness of these set pieces has been reduced for all.

It's all in testing now until we are happy to release it into the wild. No timeline as yet.

I like this alot

The effectiveness of set-pieces need to be reduced quite a bit imo

[BiggusD]

The problem i have is what exactly will be changed to make it more difficult, or less for that matter?

It should be difficult because you are taking a small team in a big league and your players are not as good, or your budget too small, etc..

The game is supposed to be tactic and resource driven. We are supposed to excel, or fail, because of our tactical acumen or excellent transfer dealings, or in either case, lack thereof.

So what exactly is to be tweaked to make the game 'correct?'

In my humble opinion the game took a dangerous turn with the addition of morale, things simply have not been the same since. Even with previous additions you could easily overchieve, use players out of position, use crazy formations etc.. if you had your team talks correct and figured out your teams individual personalities it made them too overpowered.

If SI is looking to make an adjustment here it seems they are looking at adjusting morale specifically to try and stop long win streaks etc.. this simply shows just how overpowered morale actually is. In addition unfortunately until the AI gets a serious revamp long term games with top clubs are simply a waste of time.

Its' too bad i've really enjoyed this game for the last decade or so, but it does need a serious overhaul. Tactics have to matter again!

Morale isn't overpowered at all. It IS very important, because that winning mentality and faith in your own abilities is what separates athletes with technique from world class players. Arsenal struggled awfully in the season opening RL because they lost their star players all at once, but now they have picked up their morale and are now in good form, destroying the opposition thanks to a RvP on fire. FM should reflect this.

However, there is a problem with how the 3d animations display normal good form compared to the god-like efforts seen when their morale is superb, and that problem is not that those 9.0+ rating perfect games occur - it is rather that they continue to do so game after game regardless of opposition. The result is that regardless of player quality you can destroy any opposition as long as you continue winning and team morale is superb, and of course such a high morale is maintained when you continue winning. Once you are -there- you have locked the game in god-mode. That's what needs to stop.

Superb morale should only be achievable when you manage to fire up the team before special matches, for example against rival teams or after you have won a game in which you were huge underdogs. Winning when you were a huge favourite shouldn't boost morale at all. Very Good morale should only be achievable for players who played well, so if you are on a winning streak and one of your players got a 6.8 rating his morale should drop to Good or Fairly Good.

Morale should be equally slow downwards from Ok and Fairly Poor as well. The fluctuation should vary from Fairly Poor to Good most of the time.

[Jimmy_Jambo]

Could I do a quick straw poll please?

1) Do you find it too easy, hard or ok?

2) What was your starting reputation and which club are you managing?

Cheers,
Paul

Inconsistent. I have 3 games currently playing - Rep set to Automatic.

1, As Spurs (have won every game so far, 22 games. including 6 Pre season) - Too Easy

2, LLM. (11 games in with Darlington, and was difficult to get results, played 18, won 3, drawn 5, lost 10) - Too Hard

2b, Continuing from above, holidayed till the end of the season, got offered Bury, they had been relegated, lost all but 5 players, had to rejiggle and was well over budget to just try and get a squad together, walked the league, had like 3 loses and not many more draws - Too Easy

3 - Follwing on from above also, i have resigned as Bury manager just before the start of the season (after i promoted them) and holidayed 2 years in advance and got offered the Ajax job. Won 3 friendlys so far - Too early to comment, but too easy to get the Ajax job from a short career path - Not complaining, but slightly too easy/too early too comment fully

[Fakescouse]

This game is too easy, im dynamo fc of south africa and after 20 league games I have won 18 and drawn 2.. also i have won every cup game (about 6 so far)... i played half a season with liverpool before getting bored with the easyness... or perhaps im just too good...

[Siorac86]

Any changes should be to the balance of the game, not "difficulty". Once you have achieved a superb-morale-fueled run of winning streaks the game IS easy.

If you are disliked by the squad because of poor reputation, don't have a tactic that makes a huge difference and manage to lose the first match of the season, I bet you will struggle to turn things around.

Similarly, if you are adored by the squad, have a tactic that makes a huge difference and win the first match of the season the game should be fairly easy.

Yeah, losing the first match IS a killer, I can vouch for that.

But for the morale-fueled winning runs... nah. Even with every single member of the matchday squad on superb morale after 5 straight wins I always expect a disappointing and inexplicable defeat to stop our charge. It looks as if the game has some balancing tool that ensures that the AI teams will always remain within reach. At least I can find no other explanation for getting one point out of two games after creating a total of 11 clear cut chances and hitting the woodwork four times.

That's what makes this version insanely hard (although it was a problem on previous FMs as well): you have simply no way of knowing what's wrong because even tactical problems are shown only in the total inability to take your chances.

Just now: shots 22-5, clear cut chances 3-0, possession 59-41 - and it's a 1-1 draw. And I have no idea what to tweak so that my strikers occasionally put the ball into the net. With the same tactics, the assistant manager does a lot better than me even though morale is NOT the problem, or at least all my players are on good, superb etc. No idea what's wrong. The game is insanely hard, no reason to make it even more difficult.

[alexyfoot]

Yeah, losing the first match IS a killer, I can vouch for that.

But for the morale-fueled winning runs... nah. Even with every single member of the matchday squad on superb morale after 5 straight wins I always expect a disappointing and inexplicable defeat to stop our charge. It looks as if the game has some balancing tool that ensures that the AI teams will always remain within reach. At least I can find no other explanation for getting one point out of two games after creating a total of 11 clear cut chances and hitting the woodwork four times.

That's what makes this version insanely hard (although it was a problem on previous FMs as well): you have simply no way of knowing what's wrong because even tactical problems are shown only in the total inability to take your chances.

Just now: shots 22-5, clear cut chances 3-0, possession 59-41 - and it's a 1-1 draw. And I have no idea what to tweak so that my strikers occasionally put the ball into the net. With the same tactics, the assistant manager does a lot better than me even though morale is NOT the problem, or at least all my players are on good, superb etc. No idea what's wrong. The game is insanely hard, no reason to make it even more difficult.

I have a solution for you - buy better strikers. The fact that you don't convert your chances does not mean the game is hard, it most probably means your strikers are crap.

...and you should be feeling lucky to have some sort of a challenge, a lot of people can't say the same around here about their games (including myself).

[MartinGregory84]

There is one thing that makes it easier for me that is the fact you can look at a player report and it tells you his best position and setting.. this helps at the start of the season because you can easily tweek your tactic to play to your best players strengths.

On a game playing front though I took West Ham up first season and currently struggling in Premier midtable because I have no money to bring new signings in so no its not easier.

[Siorac86]

I have a solution for you - buy better strikers. The fact that you don't convert your chances does not mean the game is hard, it most probably means your strikers are crap.

...and you should be feeling lucky to have some sort of a challenge, a lot of people can't say the same around here about their games (including myself).

They are perfectly adequate for the level I'm playing at. I can give you an example: my number one striker was top goalscorer in the division the season before I bought him. In his first season playing for us, in the very same division, he missed 2-3 chances every game. I tried another striker: same thing. A third one: again, same problem. I had a brief period in my first season when a striker was regularly banging them in but in that period we regularly conceded two goals per game just from corners. A balancing tool, again.

It's not a challenge if you have no idea what you're doing wrong. It's frustration, nothing more. I envy those who find it too easy, definitely better than feeling helpless and dejected for yet another inexplicable loss.

[milnerpoint]

Just now: shots 22-5, clear cut chances 3-0, possession 59-41 - and it's a 1-1 draw. And I have no idea what to tweak so that my strikers occasionally put the ball into the net. With the same tactics, the assistant manager does a lot better than me even though morale is NOT the problem, or at least all my players are on good, superb etc. No idea what's wrong. The game is insanely hard, no reason to make it even more difficult.

Your assistant will be changing things during the games if you leave him in charge, so it may seem he is using your tactic, but the reality is he will only be starting with your tactic and adjusting as the game goes on depending on how the game is going. It sounds like your team is rushing chances and taking on impossible chances. I would suggest looking at how you can make your team create better chances, the number of shots your team is missing would really worry me.

[Siorac86]

Your assistant will be changing things during the games if you leave him in charge, so it may seem he is using your tactic, but the reality is he will only be starting with your tactic and adjusting as the game goes on depending on how the game is going. It sounds like your team is rushing chances and taking on impossible chances. I would suggest looking at how you can make your team create better chances, the number of shots your team is missing would really worry me.

It worries me, too, mate, trust me. I often tell them to retain possession and work the ball into the box. The result, more often than not, is that we create beautiful chances, one on one with the keeper and then the striker blasts it into orbit. Or sidefoots wide from three yards. Or hits the post. Or falls on his arse. Wingers/inside forwards seem to be slightly less prolific but they don't get into goalscoring positions that often. Then again, it might be a tactical problem. FM's tactical logic was always incomprehensible to me, it has so little to do with real life football. I'll probably download some tactics. I wanted to avoid that as it takes away the sense of achievement almost entirely but it's either that or giving this game up entirely.

[Äktsjon Männ]

It worries me, too, mate, trust me. I often tell them to retain possession and work the ball into the box. The result, more often than not, is that we create beautiful chances, one on one with the keeper and then the striker blasts it into orbit. Or sidefoots wide from three yards. Or hits the post. Or falls on his arse. Wingers/inside forwards seem to be slightly less prolific but they don't get into goalscoring positions that often. Then again, it might be a tactical problem. FM's tactical logic was always incomprehensible to me, it has so little to do with real life football. I'll probably download some tactics. I wanted to avoid that as it takes away the sense of achievement almost entirely but it's either that or giving this game up entirely.

FM's match engine does have a strange way of representing team performance on the pitch. When you're missing a lot of chances it's almost certainly trying to tell you that you're actually not playing well and your tactics aren't good/suitable for your players/understandable enough. There's usually two ways to go about this, keep getting frustrated or adapt and change things. At times in the past when I've struggled with tactics I've found the best thing to do is to get back to basics. Stick to the TC settings, make a balanced base tactic avoiding extreme strategies/instructions, give your player the simplest roles. Don't ask them to do anything too difficult i.e don't use trequartista's and playmakers etc. Then when they settle into playing well slowly tweak to make the most of your players.

[Siorac86]

FM's match engine does have a strange way of representing team performance on the pitch. When you're missing a lot of chances it's almost certainly trying to tell you that you're actually not playing well and your tactics aren't good/suitable for your players/understandable enough. There's usually two ways to go about this, keep getting frustrated or adapt and change things. At times in the past when I've struggled with tactics I've found the best thing to do is to get back to basics. Stick to the TC settings, make a balanced base tactic avoiding extreme strategies/instructions, give your player the simplest roles. Don't ask them to do anything too difficult i.e don't use trequartista's and playmakers etc. Then when they settle into playing well slowly tweak to make the most of your players.

Precisely what I've tried doing from basically the start of the season. I might have to abandon 4-5-1/4-2-3-1 but a basic bog-standard 4-4-2 doesn't suit my players at all (my wide men are all AMLs or AMRs, my best midfielders are defensive midfielders etc.).

[milnerpoint]

if your playing high wingers like that then you should be able to create better chances as you are. Setting your team up a bit wider should help make more space and create better chances, also retain and work into box can help, i also use the overlap shout quite a lot in games where i am either not creating any chances, or mostly impossible shots from either far out or bad angles. What kinda of striker are you playing, is he a target man or a quick striker, what supply have you got going to him? Do you use a primary playmaker at all? There is always a tactical way to make things work, frustrating as it is.

[BiggusD]

Precisely what I've tried doing from basically the start of the season. I might have to abandon 4-5-1/4-2-3-1 but a basic bog-standard 4-4-2 doesn't suit my players at all (my wide men are all AMLs or AMRs, my best midfielders are defensive midfielders etc.).

Then you can change to the best tactic in the game, 4-2-4 with defensive midfielders. Just make an Attacking, Balanced 4-2-2-2 wide tactic where you push up, normal passing range, high closing down. Then tweak it as you see fit. Should be an instant success.

A friend of mine did that, and gradually tweak it towards the one I have been using for nearly a year - out of observation of what works... he really doesn't want to end up with my tactic but there are fewer and fewer differences the more we play. In any case, he had instant success with Napoli with the basic starting point you get when you make the tactic in TC.

You can't get a much better left winger in that tactic than Hamsik, or a much better striker than Cavani, so the results make sense (he won first season).

[ZaPPPa]

Well we learnt a long time ago that we cant please everyone all of the time......

Which is why every other game in the world comes with: <the words that shall not be said>

PS. as for your poll:

Thurrock
Automatic
Far too easy (top 3 - 1st season)
Only signed one player, very basic tactics

Solihull Moors
Automatic
Far too easy (straight to top of leaderboard)

Quit playing.

[Matej]

Things can be so easy and simple. If you find game hard, look in Tactics & Training Discussion. YOu even have good player and team guide. I would never go there myself, but its really good for players who start the game or have bad results for longer period.

For SI: You can put other options, before we start the new game. Just like you already put "hiddining player attributes" option. THere you can put "more realistic morale" , " realistic set pieces", "realistic club transfers", "realistic AI managers", etc.... If someone dont wont realistic game and find realistic game too hard, he can simply leave these options unchecked before the game starts. ANd we are all happy.

In other simulations, like in Silent Hunter series, you had all possible parameters before the start of the new game. I like submarine simulations, but i was never so good that i could play on 100 % realistic. But for players like me, they made options before the start of the game, so i played on i think 60% of difficulty. THere was never any problem with that.

[maxxross70]

Hi to everybody ...try download from here

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...Gameplay-Julia

[lee_uk]

hmmmmmmm..think ill give the above file a miss :P

[maxxross70]

?? have you tried this? of not? I am sure that something changes during match

[milnerpoint]

Increases the difficulty how? I would seriously advise avoiding this until we know exactly what it does.

[lee_uk]

as much as im tempted to download it and see what it is etc..i honestly cant be bothered with the registration sign up etc etc etc.will wait for official patch/update.

[maxxross70]

ok sorry to everybody download from here
http://community.sigames.com/showthr...Gameplay-Julia

this is the topic about this file ,opened by pinuccio in the "editor hideaway"

[lee_uk]

ok,ive downloaded it and see its the tactical template xml file thats been modified...im seriously wondering what knock on effect this may have.dont have time to test this out at the moment though.

[TheBetterHalf]

?? have you tried this? of not? I am sure that something changes during match

Could you explain better... you are sure that something changes ? Does this mean that you see a difference but have no idea why and under what circumstances ?

[voidex]

Maybe PaulC can comment on the impact of the ME from the changes in the tactical template xml file...

[Erimus1876]

Could you explain better... you are sure that something changes ? Does this mean that you see a difference but have no idea why and under what circumstances ?

Having looked at the modifications hes made in the tactical_templates file it looks like he's increased defensive closing down by quite a large margin, removed a few tendancies from some player positions giving them less irrelevant options for that position??? probably in an attempt to make them more rigid in their gameplay, therefore making less possible mistakes? Thats my take on it anyway. He's also changed some parameters to make the AI use team default settings for some categories (this could be something to do with tactical tendancies).

Not sure if it makes the game harder though as I've not not tried it. In theory I suppose it could. If I had to guess, its something like making the AI more rigid, therefore making less mistakes, sacrificing a bit of randomness for increased difficulty. I'm not 100% sure though.

However, I remember Pinuccio from the fifa manager gameplay editors forums and he made some great gameplay patches for that game. Wether his work on FM will match up is another matter. Maybe try a few test games yourself to find out?

Personally I'm waiting for SI's patch.

[maxxross70]

I can say that before this patch always win..then no

but you must try it...then write the result

[lee_uk]

so would this basically make some of our tactics/player instructions worthless then?...even player positions??
not that im gonna try it anyway..lol

[maxxross70]

for every questions about this file go here http://community.sigames.com/showthr...Gameplay-Julia
the creator answers to you

[Erimus1876]

so would this basically make some of our tactics/player instructions worthless then?...even player positions??
not that im gonna try it anyway..lol

I don't think so, unless you use only default tactics (like the AI). Human made custom tactics shouldn't be effected. Its an AI patch as far as I know. Only SI could answer that for sure.

[Siorac86]

Then you can change to the best tactic in the game, 4-2-4 with defensive midfielders. Just make an Attacking, Balanced 4-2-2-2 wide tactic where you push up, normal passing range, high closing down. Then tweak it as you see fit. Should be an instant success.

A friend of mine did that, and gradually tweak it towards the one I have been using for nearly a year - out of observation of what works... he really doesn't want to end up with my tactic but there are fewer and fewer differences the more we play. In any case, he had instant success with Napoli with the basic starting point you get when you make the tactic in TC.

You can't get a much better left winger in that tactic than Hamsik, or a much better striker than Cavani, so the results make sense (he won first season).

I'll try that then. I attempted to play with a default 4-5-1 after relegation; just lost the second match of the season with creating four clear cut chances and hitting the woodwork twice. If it's really a tactical problem then the match engine is broken beyond repair.

[pinuccio]

hello all. The changes I made ​​to the template files concern the defensive, now the teams are trying to better cover the space. At the same time the attackers goalseek. Forwards and wingers are more pungent and more seeking the depth of the game. The midfielders are inserted with greater insistence, and at the same time they have a better defensive behavior. This is because, with the original template,the CPU opponent, tends to make a large number of steps, but never seeks the goal.
Unfortunately, the tactics that are present in the root folder of the game, have an attitude of "standards". It would need to change the tactics of the game that uses theCPU, making more offensive and more defensive, to be used by the CPU in variousgame situations. Unfortunately I can not change the tactics in the root folder of the game. A solution I found is to change the tactics_template. Making a kind of tuningthat turns the game's CPU more aggressive and offensive.
But on this, I'd be curious to read a teacher's feedback PaulC.

[pinuccio]

I forgot.I suggest you trythe newgppatch1.2.

[pinuccio]

Having looked at the modifications hes made in the tactical_templates file it looks like he's increased defensive closing down by quite a large margin, removed a few tendancies from some player positions giving them less irrelevant options for that position??? probably in an attempt to make them more rigid in their gameplay, therefore making less possible mistakes? Thats my take on it anyway. He's also changed some parameters to make the AI use team default settings for some categories (this could be something to do with tactical tendancies).

Not sure if it makes the game harder though as I've not not tried it. In theory I suppose it could. If I had to guess, its something like making the AI more rigid, therefore making less mistakes, sacrificing a bit of randomness for increased difficulty. I'm not 100% sure though.

However, I remember Pinuccio from the fifa manager gameplay editors forums and he made some great gameplay patches for that game. Wether his work on FM will match up is another matter. Maybe try a few test games yourself to find out?

Personally I'm waiting for SI's patch.

^_^ But now I'm in love with footballmanager

[Erimus1876]

^_^ But now I'm in love with footballmanager

Hi mate, welcome to real football, and not that cartoon football effort EA churn out year after year

I decided to try your patch out of curiosity, and although its much harder to keep a clean sheet I think there's too many goals being scored overall.

I played 10 matches as manager of Tottenham Hotspur...

Home v Fulham won 3-1
Away v Celtic won 2-1
Away v Sunderland lost 0-3
Home v Bolton won 4-1
Home v Maccabi Haifa won 2-0
Away v Arsenal drew 3-3
Home v Liverpool drew 3-3
Away v West Brom won 6-4
Home v Man Utd won 5-1
Home v Swansea won 3-1

I think its a good idea you're onto, but the SI made tactics are already finely balanced and even the smallest modification can have wild consequences. FM is far more sophisticated than Fifa Manager so it'll probably be much harder to get any more realism out of the game with gameplay patches. Maybe a lot of hard work and trial and error is needed.

49 goals in 10 games is a bit too many

[pinuccio]

Hi mate, welcome to the real football game, and not that cartoon football effort EA churn out year after year

I tried your patch, and although its much harder to keep a clean sheet I think there's too many goals being scored overall.

I played 10 matches as manager of Tottenham Hotspur...

Home v Fulham won 3-1
Away v Celtic won 2-1
Away v Sunderland lost 0-3
Home v Bolton won 4-1
Home v Maccabi Haifa won 2-0
Away v Arsenal drew 3-3
Home v Liverpool drew 3-3
Away v West Brom won 6-4
Home v Man Utd won 5-1
Home v Swansea won 3-1

I think its a good idea you're onto, but the SI made tactics are already finely balanced and even the smallest modifiction can have wild consequences. FM is far more sophisticated than Fifa Manager so it'll probably be much harder to get any more realism out of the game with gameplay patches. Maybe a lot of hard work and trial and error is needed.

49 goals in 10 games is a bit too many

good feedback.Of course there are jobs available.But it maybe an idea t customize the template,perhaps with help from PaulC to better understand the meaning of the values ​​of tactics_template and how it interacts with the game.And of course if these changes might be useful to create a greater reactivity of the opposing team.

@Erimus:Can you telluswith whattacticsyou play,thegoals,it seems to meto use astrong touchoffensive.

There is also the patch1.1 thatwe can try.To see the difference with the 1.2 better.

Your feedback is important, you are experienced players and you know thegame very well.

I forgot. You've tried watching an entire match? I am afraid there is a difference between an entire match or salient actions, or speeding up the match.

But I'm not sure about this.

[PaulC]

While I appreciate the time and effort that goes into this sort of stuff I have enough trouble with the ME and tactics supplied in the game without analysing 3rd party stuff like this

[Erimus1876]

@pinuccio

I used patch 1.2. Yes, I used offensive tactics with Tottenham as thats their main strength. I used default 4-4-2 Diamond mostly.

If I get time I will try it with a different team and defensive tactics, but I'll probably wait for the SI patch for now.

In Football Manager the whole game is simulated so it doesn't matter if you watch the Full Game, Extended Highlights, Key Highlights, or Commentry. The whole game is played, and you can go back and watch it in its entirey afterwards if you like - even if you just used commentry mode first time around. Unlike fifa manager, there is no instant result calculation or text mode ME's. Fifa Manager effectively has 3 different match engines, thats why the results vary wildy from one to the other. In Football Manager there is only one match engine, and all results in your league are actually generated from fully simulated games.

Football Manager is a football simulation.

Fifa Manager is a football 'game'.

[pinuccio]

Erimusgood.And thank you foryour excellentexplanation.

[pinuccio]

While I appreciate the time and effort that goes into this sort of stuff I have enough trouble with the ME and tactics supplied in the game without analysing 3rd party stuff like this

Thanks Paulfor yourpost

[Gorando]

Just won the German league with Freiburg who were predicted to finish 17th. I didn't even do any transfers. It kinda ruined the game for me... I easily beat teams like Bayern Munich, Dortmund, Leverkusen...

[pinuccio]

I have improved in this update aggressiveness fullback and wing.In addition,there is an improvement of the goalies to lower the number of goals and have more realistic results.

topic http://community.sigames.com/showthr...Gameplay-Julia

[Casual]

Napoli
Automatic
Too Easy, won the Seria A in 1st season with no effort whatsoever


My biggest objection would probably be the non-existent home ground effect. In previous versions of FM I found that it was much harder for me to win the away matches, and always had to change my tactics and make it more careful if I wanted to get something out of the match, especially if I managed a mediocre team. In FM 2012, I don't feel that effect exists. I feel like it doesn't matter whether you play home or away, whether you change your tactics, shouts etc. I don't know what determines the winner in FM 2012 the most, is it the player's attributes, the team's reputation or what? The factors that determine the winner of a football match should be counted in double digits, and it certainly doesn't feel so in this version.