FM2012 difficulty.

[Loversleaper]

Ok, it's very easy test.

Italian Serie A, we're at the beginning of the season (9 matches for each team played).

It's October 30th. 10th round.

I am the manager of Cagliari. We are 8th in the league (predicted 10th) and in 10th round we'll play against Genoa (predicted 7th), which is actually 5th.

Probably 35% Cagliari - 30% Draw - 35% Genoa is a good prediction (for what I've seen ingame). In-game odds probabilities are: Cagliari 40% - Draw 28% - Genoa 32 %

Base #1 (MP Brought to 100 for Cagliari, left as it is for Genoa):

Sorry to have to rain on your parade, but this is where the angle is not doing any favors. To conduct the test to be able to see the difference you need to lock the tactical settings that the AI uses so it is totally in conjunction with the MP settings and not allow the AI to move from them at all. You will never be able to get a clear picture as long as you have no idea what settings that the AI is using or changing to during matches due to circumstances, this is the reason that these type of tests will always be random...

[Fede_Gu]

Random results? Probably.

For sure MP 2nd and 3rd string at 0 IMHO had not a big impact as someone says.

[Jari Rantanen\'s Shorts]

It would be really hard to convince me that too many corner goals scored by defenders is making this game as easy as some claim it to be. It is a problem, an annoying one but I don't buy it.

As much as I know, it was never hard to win a CL with lower division teams in 10 or 15 years. Or have any other kind of success. Fm was always easy for more experinced players. Why is this years fm easier than 11, I don't know. We know why long term games are easy. From my experience and the way I play the game, I would have a thought about AI tactical ability, tactical system in general and the ME which hugely favours attacking football.

I believe it has some effect, but still find it difficult to understand how this could be the issue. In the save game I uploaded, we have scored 90+ goals in 30 games - of these 15 are through my two DC's that have played pretty much every game (one is ever present, the other has missed 3 league games).

The ever-present DC matches the supposed issue - 8 goals from 20 attempts, 40% conversion. The other guy has 7 from 29 attempts (24%). Unless I've misunderstood, it was suggested that 1 goal in 5 attempts is realistic. Therefore this means that the ever-present has scored 4 'too many' and the other guy has maybe 1 'too many'. (For the record I have not adjusted set-piece instructions for any set-piece, other than to name the takers themselves)

Where I find it difficult is in uderstanding how these 5 extra goals across 30 games is the reason I have won 27 out of 30 and average 3.3 goals a game, especially when there was one game recently where both of them scored 2 each, so you could argue that at least 2 of these 'extra goals' came in one match

[Loversleaper]

Random results? Probably.

For sure MP 2nd and 3rd string at 0 IMHO had not a big impact as someone says.

I think the point is being misunderstood as I may be very bad at trying to explain how I think it works. MP raises 'familiarity' levels of certain settings, so it doesn't matter if it is at 0 or 100 - as soon as a change in strategy/shout is implemented then it moves away from the 'familiarity' level (presumably setting it back to 0)...

A better way to see the effect of the MP would be to use two human users. Make sure that the one team is 100% familiar with the tactic it uses (and only use that one during the entire match without any changes) and the other team far away from any familiar settings. This way you might be able to see if the MP 'familiarity' makes a difference (and how much)...

[Erimus1876]

I think the point is being misunderstood as I may be very bad at trying to explain how I think it works. MP raises 'familiarity' levels of certain settings, so it doesn't matter if it is at 0 or 100 - as soon as a change in strategy/shout is implemented then it moves away from the 'familiarity' level (presumably setting it back to 0)...

A better way to see the effect of the MP would be to use two human users. Make sure that the one team is 100% familiar with the tactic it uses (and only use that one during the entire match without any changes) and the other team far away from any familiar settings. This way you might be able to see if the MP 'familiarity' makes a difference (and how much)...

Very tempted to try this

Although as others have pointed out, Riz wrote the MP code so if he says it does what it does, I'm happy to go with that....

... but... still... very tempted to give this test a go just to kill off any lingering curiosity. Human manager v Human manager... hmmm.

*must resist temptation and get back to updating my DB*

Damn you Loversleaper

[Fede_Gu]

Yep, I understand your point and I agree.

But my point is not the same: we're arguing about what could or could not be the big "bug" (I don't like the term in this case). MP, Morale after a positive streak, set pieces etc.
We know that in a single game AI teams use 2nd and 3rd string formation more than often.
A 0 familiarity with 2nd and 3rd string tactics could signify a disaster, in real life, especially if (and it's the case) these tactics are used in emergency situations.

What I've said is "IMHO there are no evidence that MP 0 familiarity on 2nd and 3rd string formations are strongly linked with strange outcomes of the matches".
Probably a tweak is needed BUT I'm really convinced that MP is not the main issue (unfortunately).

[Erimus1876]

When we put all this problems aside, my worry is that FM AI dont impress me.

To be more more clear, this is how my saves look in last few years of FM. In first season just in few games i can feel power of AI teams. Maybe few games i lose 2 goals diffrence and i can feel that AI really punished me for my mistakes. More seasons i play, these games become easier and easier. I usually stop playin when i can see on my fixture list that im winning almost every game, and thats ussually in 3rd or 4th season. I play with Sheff. Wednesday or Everton.

I like games where AI is smart and where i really can say : wow, i must try harder. IN RPG games that happens a lot and thats why i like RPG.

In FM, i dont have feelin im playin against great AI managers, like A. Ferguson, A. Wenger, Ancelotti... They are in the game, but just their names, not their strength. I hope to see more strength of good managers in the future.

There's little we can do about that since the AI does need upgrading... and poor regen staff replacing the best starting DB staff after a few seasons just compounds the problem. One short-term solution to help with the latter point would be to basically create some fantastic young AI managers in the DB that have high PA's and 20's in all key managerial catergories (like buying players, motivation, man-management etc), so when the Fergie's, Mourinho's, and Guadiola's retire there's a crop of excellent younger managers coming through to replace them.

[Loversleaper]

Very tempted to try this

Although as others have pointed out, Riz wrote the MP code so if he says it does what it does, I'm happy to go with that....

... but... still... very tempted to give this test a go just to kill off any lingering curiosity. Human manager v Human manager... hmmm.

*must resist temptation and get back to updating my DB*

Damn you Loversleaper

It's not as easy as you might think. You have to use the more or less correct strategies for the match for both teams so not to cause more randomness. Pick two relatively equal teams, the Home team probably should use an Attacking Strategy (remember to remove the Counter Attack option & save it) and the away team should use Defensive, Counter or Standard Strategy (Counter though can be problematic due to triggering aspect of the Couter Attack, so perferably Defensive is best for testing purposes). Start with the home team 100% familiar with the tactic and the away team at 0, after numerous tests then change the home team to 0 and the away to 100. Make sure they use the exact same tactics throughout without any changes during all the tests...

[Riz Remes]

MP raises 'familiarity' levels of certain settings, so it doesn't matter if it is at 0 or 100 - as soon as a change in strategy/shout is implemented then it moves away from the 'familiarity' level (presumably setting it back to 0)...

No, they won't reset to zero whenever you make tactical changes during the match. Yes, once you make some tactical changes to move away from the exact tactic that you had trained to 100% level, the same familiarity won't naturally apply. But depending on the scale of the changes, the players will still have some level of familiarity on the new settings based on what they had trained before and how big your changes in match are. Ie. the playes will adapt to your changes and use their previous familiarity as much as is suitable. Naturally changing the formation has bigger effects than just changing the other parts of the tactics like tempo etc. but you would have to make some pretty drastic tactical changes during the match to lose all the familiarity gained via previous training.

[Loversleaper]

No, they won't reset to zero whenever you make tactical changes during the match. Yes, once you make some tactical changes to move away from the exact tactic that you had trained to 100% level, the same familiarity won't naturally apply. But depending on the scale of the changes, the players will still have some level of familiarity on the new settings based on what they had trained before and how big your changes in match are. Ie. the playes will adapt to your changes and use their previous familiarity as much as is suitable. Naturally changing the formation has bigger effects than just changing the other parts of the tactics like tempo etc. but you would have to make some pretty drastic tactical changes during the match to lose all the familiarity gained via previous training.

To understand this correctly: if you use direct passing (in the MP) and you decide to play shorter during a match, you naturally don't reset the direct passing 'familiarity'- I pretty much figured that. But since you do decide to use shorter passing during a match then you are suggesting that the ME doesn't recognise the 'familiarity' setting for shorter passing as 0?

[wwfan]

The ever-present DC matches the supposed issue - 8 goals from 20 attempts, 40% conversion. The other guy has 7 from 29 attempts (24%). Unless I've misunderstood, it was suggested that 1 goal in 5 attempts is realistic. Therefore this means that the ever-present has scored 4 'too many' and the other guy has maybe 1 'too many'. (For the record I have not adjusted set-piece instructions for any set-piece, other than to name the takers themselves)

Where I find it difficult is in uderstanding how these 5 extra goals across 30 games is the reason I have won 27 out of 30 and average 3.3 goals a game, especially when there was one game recently where both of them scored 2 each, so you could argue that at least 2 of these 'extra goals' came in one match

24% is not realistic. 10-12% would be the ballpark figure for non-forwards. You should have scored circa 5. That's 10 'gimme' goals, or 1 in every 3 games, which is similar to, if not slightly higher, than the ratio in other saves.

Say that for every game you get a 'gimme' goal, you win. You also win 1/3 of your games fairly. After 30 games your record would be circa W20 D5 L5. However, if you add in some of the morale advantages that 'hangover' from winning streaks and your MP advantage, you can award yourself a few more wins. Voila, you have 27!

[Mitja]

Scoring 7 or 8 goals is maybe not realistic for a Dc to score in a season, but it's acceptable. It surely doesn't make a game from being easy to chalenging. Far from it.

For me being able to have 20+ shots per game is just as annoying. Probably even more.

[Jari Rantanen\'s Shorts]

24% is not realistic. 10-12% would be the ballpark figure for non-forwards. You should have scored circa 5. That's 10 'gimme' goals, or 1 in every 3 games, which is similar to, if not slightly higher, than the ratio in other saves.

Say that for every game you get a 'gimme' goal, you win. You also win 1/3 of your games fairly. After 30 games your record would be circa W20 D5 L5. However, if you add in some of the morale advantages that 'hangover' from winning streaks and your MP advantage, you can award yourself a few more wins. Voila, you have 27!

Thanks for the reply - makes more sense with 10-12% being the norm, and mixed in with the other factors (I thought that they had been downplayed more than your reply suggests). And looking at team stats, I have scored 18 goals from corners in total, the next best is 13, which is a big difference. I'm in joint 7th for goals from IFKs though, so nothing extraordinary there.

I never swap the two CDs from their left/right sides, so the default corner instructions are always the same too. Noticed that the ever present DC (who for the record has scored another in the next 4 games, from a corner obviously) always attacks the near post rather than the far.

I understand more from your answer, so the only thing I'm seeing that seems to be against the grain is that I'm having a far greater impact from the DC attacking the near post (however, he is also the much higher rated player)

[wwfan]

I understand more from your answer, so the only thing I'm seeing that seems to be against the grain is that I'm having a far greater impact from the DC attacking the near post (however, he is also the much higher rated player)

What are his key attributes versus the other DC (Jumping, Heading, Anticipation, Off the Ball, Strength)? Earlier in the thread it was the back post DC dominating. Your findings suggest it is attributes, not set piece position, that is the key.

[phnompenhandy]

I'm the earlier thread chap. They key attribute difference between the 2 DCs was that the one getting all the goals had a very high STRENGTH attribute. He was inferior in Head/Jumping. They both have poor attributes in anticipation and off the ball.

[Jari Rantanen\'s Shorts]

What are his key attributes versus the other DC (Jumping, Heading, Anticipation, Off the Ball, Strength)? Earlier in the thread it was the back post DC dominating. Your findings suggest it is attributes, not set piece position, that is the key.

Far Post - Chris Brown




Near Post - Jim Lauchlan

[bleventozturk]

Yes, having three full familiarity tactics will give a slight edge here but considering the bigger picture, it does not appear to be a major factor to final results. However, like I already stated above we have looked into the AI handling of their match preparation training and we are continuing to balance things where needed.

This thread has been very helpful so far. I believe it when SI says such and such have minor effect on the results, but look how many areas have been discovered here. Morale has minor effect, set pieces have minor effect, MP has minor effects, etc., but all these little 'deficiencies' AI teams have, add up to make the game (which is already easy in long term due to AI's lack of competitiveness in the transfer market) easy starting from very first season now. In the older FM's at least the first 1-2 seasons were challenging.

Anyways, I'm glad this thread became very useful to SI to improve the game. Thank you to everybody who contributed

[ReggaeBwoy]

BTW, just seen someone in the Tottenham thread who beat Manu 10-0

[Mitja]

Tottenham are over-powered!!

[Riz Remes]

To understand this correctly: if you use direct passing (in the MP) and you decide to play shorter during a match, you naturally don't reset the direct passing 'familiarity'- I pretty much figured that. But since you do decide to use shorter passing during a match then you are suggesting that the ME doesn't recognise the 'familiarity' setting for shorter passing as 0?

Let's say you have just one tactic setup in match prep and you use direct passing that and have it already trained at 100% familiarity for example. Then you start a match and switch to a "shorter passing" style. Naturally this won't affect anything you have set in the training, but during the rest of the match the players are not using the exact same tactic as they had trained with so the familiarity level applied is not the same as shows up in the training. The level applied in the match after the tactical change is based on the level for direct passing, but is naturally lower because of the change.

Naturally if you have multiple tactics trained, then any changes you make during the match are checked against all the trained tactics to see if the new match tactics have been trained previously. And even if they haven't been trained, the players will still keep a part of the trained level of familiarity depending on how much the new match time tactics differ from the ones they had trained for.

[Äktsjon Männ]

I still intend to have AI set them up using abilities rather than positions, but clearly they need to be a little more willing to hit that big man at the far post

I know this is a bit of a tongue in cheek comment but I can't help but point out that having the AI score more unstoppable corner goals is the opposite of what should be happening. You clearly need to make it way harder for both the AI and player controlled team to actually hit anyone specific with their corner kicks. The accuracy should be nowhere near as high.

[PaulC]

I know this is a bit of a tongue in cheek comment but I can't help but point out that having the AI score more unstoppable corner goals is the opposite of what should be happening. You clearly need to make it way harder for both the AI and player controlled team to actually hit anyone specific with their corner kicks. The accuracy should be nowhere near as high.

No its an obvious point. Delivery accuracy would have to be toned down if possible. I also think headers in general are on target too often and that gives us some room for manoeuvre.

[alexyfoot]

No its an obvious point. Delivery accuracy would have to be toned down if possible. I also think headers in general are on target too often and that gives us some room for manoeuvre.

I agree. I've tuned down my corners by advising mixed delivery so that I don't score more than the opposition (and I don't now). However, I am scoring quite a lot from IFK so the problem is headers are too accurate for me even though my players don't have exceptional heading ability.

[Äktsjon Männ]

No its an obvious point. Delivery accuracy would have to be toned down if possible. I also think headers in general are on target too often and that gives us some room for manoeuvre.

Yeah, but it was too low in FM10. I can definitely see how it's hard to balance. Is the CK delivery very closely tied to crossing in general? I can't say I'm seeing too many headed goals from open play at all, probably the opposite in fact.

[grep]

No its an obvious point. Delivery accuracy would have to be toned down if possible. I also think headers in general are on target too often and that gives us some room for manoeuvre.

I also noticed a very high percentage of scored penalties both from AI and human, dunno if I am the only one or if you guys share my thought.

[Jack Rudd]

I also noticed a very high percentage of scored penalties both from AI and human, dunno if I am the only one or if you guys share my thought.

What sort of high percentage? Bear in mind that a very high percentage of penalties are scored in reality.

[grep]

What sort of high percentage? Bear in mind that a very high percentage of penalties are scored in reality.

I have played only a season an a half so far ( cause of easiness I stopped playing ) and I can speak about my own perception only.

Well, I have seen roughly 20-25 penalties both from AI and mine and roughly 95% of them have been scored.


This is not a shout like the easiness one, this is only a side question I posted to listen to your opinions

[lee_uk]

* eagerly awaits the next update/patch *

[phnompenhandy]

No its an obvious point. Delivery accuracy would have to be toned down if possible. I also think headers in general are on target too often and that gives us some room for manoeuvre.

I instruct my wide men never to cross because the success rate for crossing is so low (like long shots). So on the one hand crossing is very poor, but on the other hand corners are too successful. It's the headers from corners only that needs to be toned down, from my observations.

Nb. I get very little success from free kicks. My free kick takers don't have good attributes (neither do my corner takers), so that seems right to me.

[Loversleaper]

Let's say you have just one tactic setup in match prep and you use direct passing that and have it already trained at 100% familiarity for example. Then you start a match and switch to a "shorter passing" style. Naturally this won't affect anything you have set in the training, but during the rest of the match the players are not using the exact same tactic as they had trained with so the familiarity level applied is not the same as shows up in the training. The level applied in the match after the tactical change is based on the level for direct passing, but is naturally lower because of the change.

Naturally if you have multiple tactics trained, then any changes you make during the match are checked against all the trained tactics to see if the new match tactics have been trained previously. And even if they haven't been trained, the players will still keep a part of the trained level of familiarity depending on how much the new match time tactics differ from the ones they had trained for.

This could explain why that it might be relatively easy to overachieve using one tactic throughout as described in several threads. Shouts change settings, you could be in a situation where the shouts might alter your game plan so much that your team are unfamiliar with them - thus causing the overall gameplan to fail. This is what I think is happening to the AI, as you mentioned earlier that the AI might change around more than the human would. Taking myself as an example, I am not sure what all the shouts change in regards to settings (of the sliders) so I may be in a situation where I wouldn't be able to see the desired effect of the changes I implement through the Strategy/Shouts options (where I think it would be a good idea, but due to the familiarity reality it turns out to be a bad option).

I was wondering, does the 'familiarity' have any effect on goal conversion rates (since we are talking about set-pieces/corners as well elsewhere)?

[bleventozturk]

I have played only a season an a half so far ( cause of easiness I stopped playing ) and I can speak about my own perception only.

Well, I have seen roughly 20-25 penalties both from AI and mine and roughly 95% of them have been scored.


This is not a shout like the easiness one, this is only a side question I posted to listen to your opinions

It should be closer to 80-85% in real life, and as far as I know in FM it is nowhere near 95%, it is more like 85%. 20-25 penalties are not enough sample. Overall it is not that far off.

[Radebe1]

about right i feel.

[tottenhamfmo7]

I am certainly being more successfull in FM12, whether thats down to me just playing better (transfers, tactics etc) or the game is actually easier, I'm not sure...

[Cilio]

Corners goals have a bug or something?? Is so easy to score from a corner :S

[SeanNUFC]

I am certainly being more successfull in FM12, whether thats down to me just playing better (transfers, tactics etc) or the game is actually easier, I'm not sure...

Doesn't it feel like you have to do a lot less to win a game now?

[wwfan]

I have played only a season an a half so far ( cause of easiness I stopped playing ) and I can speak about my own perception only.

Well, I have seen roughly 20-25 penalties both from AI and mine and roughly 95% of them have been scored.


This is not a shout like the easiness one, this is only a side question I posted to listen to your opinions

The last percentages I saw had penalties at circa 79% wheres in reality conversion is 82%. Haven't seen anything to suggest that's changed.

[alexyfoot]

Just won another 1st season save - this time Grasshoppers (predicted 7/10). I am 3/4 first time league winner now. Only Wolfsburg took me 2 seasons from the bottom of the table. Differenet tactics in each team and in the last one - not a single tactical change all season... I feel ashamed to be called "wonder-maker" by the game, for it probably everyone is.

[KUBI]

Grasshoppers are over-powered in my game too (AI managed), I think that some of the players like de Ridder, Landeka, Bertucci, Paiva etc. are a lot better in FM than in reality.

[alexyfoot]

Grasshoppers are over-powered in my game too (AI managed), I think that some of the players like de Ridder, Landeka, Bertucci, Paiva etc. are a lot better in FM than in reality.

Landeka was a sub all season long Was impressed with Zuber as AML - he had a fantastic season. Also Bertucci and Lang are very good prospects. However, I just realized my finances are crap and my wage budget is even lower than first season, I am really going to struggle season 2 when I have CL and League alongside with my miniature squad - hopefully it will be more fun.

[Matej]

I just saw in the other thread , C. ROnaldo scored 19 goals in first 5 games. WHats more interesting , in same thread, P. Crouch score 43 goals in a season. This game really need some balance and realism. Peter Crouch never was scoring machine, only time he score 20+ goals was for Liverpool, but in 3 seasons, hehehe.

I really dont know whats happening with this game, but i know that you must make this game harder to beat. Put some challenge in FM13, before its too late.

Actually, its pretty sad that i didnt play with the clubs i support, for 8 years (real life), Ac Milan and Arsenal, because its too easy to play with them. YOu must make some challenge for top teams too. Many players actually support bigger clubs, not smaller ones.

Only club i like and its not in first league is Sheff. Wednesday, but im tired of playin with them.

[jase19]

I just saw in the other thread , C. ROnaldo scored 19 goals in first 5 games. WHats more interesting , in same thread, P. Crouch score 43 goals in a season. This game really need some balance and realism. Peter Crouch never was scoring machine, only time he score 20+ goals was for Liverpool, but in 3 seasons, hehehe.

I really dont know whats happening with this game, but i know that you must make this game harder to beat. Put some challenge in FM13, before its too late.

Actually, its pretty sad that i didnt play with the clubs i support, for 8 years (real life), Ac Milan and Arsenal, because its too easy to play with them. YOu must make some challenge for top teams too. Many players actually support bigger clubs, not smaller ones.

Only club i like and its not in first league is Sheff. Wednesday, but im tired of playin with them.

is there a tactic being downloaded that is really good, or something along those lines?

in my 6th season the most goals i've had by 1 player in the league is 24 by suarez, that was once. he's hit 20 twice, and then never more than that. neymar gets 15-18/season. and a regen i have gets 10-15. but i'm not getting anyone with 30, 40, 50 goals...

[Keyzer Soze]

Theres was a old football manager (i dont remember the name atm), where you pick the team you want... but always start in the 4th division.
So for example, you could pick your favourite team (Arsenal), and start the save in the 4th division.

This could be arranged in the game along side with the option to play with fictional players.

And maybe SI could arrange also a little introduction story like..."Arsenal got relegated to the 4th due to finances issues..." or something like that.

This could be a nice challenge to many players, imo... and a very easy one to implement in the game.

[phnompenhandy]

This is possibly one of the most important thread for years; let's not derail it with daft ideas.

[cption]

I don't think this game's any easier than FM2011, to be honest. I'm playing as Lazio and I've been humbled by stronger teams (Barca, OM, PSG) etc. Haven't won the league yet in 4 seasons though I do have an italian cup. In FM11 I would be ripping the league/europe/intercontinentals apart with my B-team.

And yes, I do keep my player morals high all the time.

[efreet]

WTF is all this....someone ban the clown.

Ban me for what?

[grep]

This is possibly one of the most important thread for years; let's not derail it with daft ideas.

I would cut the word " possibly " or change it with " definitely "

[lee_uk]

Ban me for what?

cos you kept spamming the same old crap over and over!!!

[Mitja]

I'm regulary having silly amounts of shots with Real Madrid. This is a little analisys of real life squad and my in FM.

IRL Real have scored 23 goals in last 6 matches, won them all. Real has scored 3,83 goals per game.

vs Osasuna 7:1 (Real had 16 shots)
vs Sociedad 1:0 (12 shots)
vs Villareal 3:0 (13)
vs Malaga 4:0 (13)
vs Betis 4:1 (23)
vs Espanyol 4:0 (15)

Together they had 92 shots, which meens 15.33 shots/game.

Real in my FM save: we have scored 14 goals in last 6 games. 2,33 per game. If I don't count two super cup games with Barca which is also managed by me then we had 3,5 goals/game.

vs Bayer 4:0 (36 shots on goal)
vs Espanyol 2:1 (21)
vs Zaragoza 2:0 (40)
vs Sporting 4:0 (23)
vs Barca (managed by me also) 0:1 (9)
vs Barca (managed by me also) 0:1 (12)

This meens 141 total shots or 23,5 per/game. If I don't count games with Barca we had 30 shots per game on avarage.

I'm able to have twice as more shots per game than real life Real, with goals/game being lower. This is a big problem I think and surely one of the reasons why this game is easy. Especially for people who play with big clubs, or become such in few years or have a good tactic. WHich includes almost everyone at one point I guess. The reason why it is happening is in poor defensive AI and tactical system which could be easily improved.

In this two games just Ronaldo has as many shots as Real has on avarage in real life:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/521/70776222.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/rm2t.jpg/

[Keyzer Soze]

This is possibly one of the most important thread for years; let's not derail it with daft ideas.

was this related with my ideia?
You may not like it, but please respect it.

[BiggusD]

Theres was a old football manager (i dont remember the name atm), where you pick the team you want... but always start in the 4th division.
So for example, you could pick your favourite team (Arsenal), and start the save in the 4th division.

This could be arranged in the game along side with the option to play with fictional players.

And maybe SI could arrange also a little introduction story like..."Arsenal got relegated to the 4th due to finances issues..." or something like that.

This could be a nice challenge to many players, imo... and a very easy one to implement in the game.

How would managing Arsenal with their finances in L2 be challenging? Should they start with a 5000 stadium and no followers too? Bad idea.

[FishBowlMan]

A very interesting thread. Thought I'd chip in.

Here's a shot taken just after preseason of my match preparation (if it appears):



Attributes improving nicely, I'm sure you'll agree. Tactics 1 and 2 are both 442, but #1 is a disciplined counter-attack setup and #2 is a more fluid standard setup. This obviously explains why the majority of values are similar. There's not a great deal of difference between the two.

What I find confusing are the values for tactic #3. Tactic #3 doesn't exist. I have never trained it and have not used another tactic during a match if I remember correctly. So what do these values represent? Are they various shouts that I've used? I've experimented with most of them throughout the preseason.

Anyone else experiencing this? It seems to fall within the remit of the game being easier than I was expecting as the players seem to be gaining knowledge of tactics that I know nothing about. I do have a "fairly professional" squad, so maybe they're spending the evenings doing background reading

[suckerkevin]

Isnt too easy.
Almost got the sack twice in my 2nd season and once in my 1st.

But in my 2nd season, spurs signed an unknown African striker. 28goals in 10+ apps? Before January even started.
Wayne rooney was at 14, and my Leandro Damio was 3rd at 13. How did he even hit 28? ._.

So Tottenham are top of the table. Same point as united, but top of table because of GD

[PoolFan]

I agree with the people saying it isn't to easy. The problem is you have a few select forums members who have been playing the game for years who know every trick in the book in regards to the ME and how to get results. Personally I have found this version of FM far more playable and enjoyable, it reminds me of the old Championship Manager games actually.

I can't help but feel after seeing Paul C reading comments from a few 'experts' that once again they will patch the game and basically ruin what in my opinion is the most fun version of FM series for a very long time. This whole topic brings up once again the whole difficult setting option. I for one see no reason why this cannot be implemented (linked to manager starting reputation maybe), either way it is clear you have a lot of people who really enjoy the full on technical aspect and ultra micromanagement of FM, and then you have others like me who like something simpler and yes easy.

[phnompenhandy]

After 13 pages of very fruitful discussion with SI, we now have people offering opinions who haven't bothered to read the thread. That makes those view utterly worthless and are just degrading the debate. Have a read of what people have actually done and discovered. Since it has proved to be extremely important to Paul Collyer himself, I don't think someone who hasn't bothered to understand the issues knows better than the creator of the game.

[hursty2]

After 13 pages of very fruitful discussion with SI, we now have people offering opinions who haven't bothered to read the thread. That makes those view utterly worthless and are just degrading the debate. Have a read of what people have actually done and discovered. Since it has proved to be extremely important to Paul Collyer himself, I don't think someone who hasn't bothered to understand the issues knows better than the creator of the game.

I'd love to read the Paul Collyer post's but I can't find them.

[PoolFan]

After 13 pages of very fruitful discussion with SI, we now have people offering opinions who haven't bothered to read the thread. That makes those view utterly worthless and are just degrading the debate. Have a read of what people have actually done and discovered. Since it has proved to be extremely important to Paul Collyer himself, I don't think someone who hasn't bothered to understand the issues knows better than the creator of the game.

I have read the thread and despite what a few so called FM experts are saying, I personally believe the game is WAY more fun this year than for a very long time. Now this maybe down to what you would call bugs but honestly I don't care. The last few versions of FM have seen the game become more and more inaccessible, this new version is a step in the right direction even if it is down to a few errors. You only have to look at the endless threads last year about the voodoo science of trying to motivate your team to see how frustrating people found it.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Paul C say himself that he needs to be VERY careful in what changes are made as it seemed a hell of a lot of people are actually loving this version of FM?

[PaulC]

That is indeed what I said.

If I can reduce human exploitation of corners where it occurs, and also reduce extremes of morale I think everyone will be happy. But so far we havent even started testing some of this internally.........

[Mitja]

I have read the thread and despite what a few so called FM experts are saying, I personally believe the game is WAY more fun this year than for a very long time. Now this maybe down to what you would call bugs but honestly I don't care. The last few versions of FM have seen the game become more and more inaccessible, this new version is a step in the right direction even if it is down to a few errors. You only have to look at the endless threads last year about the voodoo science of trying to motivate your team to see how frustrating people found it.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Paul C say himself that he needs to be VERY careful in what changes are made as it seemed a hell of a lot of people are actually loving this version of FM?

It's nice to hear you're enjoying. I share your wiew in many aspects and I believe that some things have finally been fixed. Problem as this thread shows is they're facing many different groups of people who want to play the game differently. While one group will be perfectly happy with winning by pressing continue button, others will expect more realistic game and more challange. I really don't see how to make both of these extreme groups satsified. Maybe a introduction of some kind of difficulty levels isn't such a bad idea afterall. Or even realising a new game FMPro A game which would satisfy both camps might be a good game but it will never be a brilliant one.

[Mitja]

That is indeed what I said.

If I can reduce human exploitation of corners where it occurs, and also reduce extremes of morale I think everyone will be happy. But so far we havent even started testing some of this internally.........

I would defenetly look at strikers scoring too much issue, if it's possible for FM12. It's probably far more game-breaking than the corner thing. The defending is really poor at the moment.

[jdrawmer]

It's the exploitation of holes in the ME that makes the game easier than others find it. It's easy to download a tactic from various forums that has bee successful, load it in and get results without doing very much. The ME will never be perfect, but there's clear improvement. I love this years match engine, and I build my own tactics and use the roles and shouts because I feel that way you're not exploiting any holes (unless you happen to stumble on one), and your tinkering makes a difference in the game.

[hursty2]

If you're against player naming do not read on. Although no key details revealed.

PLAYER               POSITION     SHOTS/GOALS RATIO    %     PENS
Tomas Hubocan        RB           -                    -      -
Robert Huth          CB           4/21                 19     -
Kenwyne Jones        ST           4/21                 19     -
Andras Nagy          ST           2/3                  66     1
Felice Natalino      RB           -                    -      -
Wilson Palacios      CM           1/8                  12     1
Jermaine Pennant     RM           5/42                 11     -
Bjorne Helge Riise   RM           2/11                 18     -
Karim Rossi          ST           3/15                 20     -
Ryan Shawcross       CB           2/18                 11     -
Ryan Shotton         RB           0/2                   0     -
Darnel Situ          CB           8/19                 42     1
Johnathon Walters    ST           1/8                  12     -
Marc Wilson          CM           3/16                 18     2
Danny Collins        LB           1/1                 100     -  CORNER
Peter Crouch         ST           2/4                  50     -  NONE FROM CORNERS
Yassine              LM           4/40                 10     -
Rasmus Elm           CM           0/25                  0     -
Matthew Etherington  LM           3/33                  9     -
Rasmus Falk          ST           1/40                  2     -
Gary Hooper          ST           10/73                13     -

Alright this is after 50 games in a season with Stoke. Huth and Shawcross are my starting CB's and both assume the default roles of front post back post, Shawcross front, Huth back. I know for a fact that Shawcross scored all his goals from corners whilst Huth did score some long shots also. One player that is drastically skewed is Situ who has a percentage of goals to shots at 42%, and I know that he scored all but one from corners in a spell where he replaced an injured Shawcross. All these goals were scored from the FRONT post glancing the headers in, in between the keeper and the man on the post almost every time. Crouch being the big man he is, didn't score from corners at all.

Just my findings.

[hursty2]

And as I posted this Shawcross has scored 2 from a corner and a free-kick.

[Mitja]

It's the exploitation of holes in the ME that makes the game easier than others find it. It's easy to download a tactic from various forums that has bee successful, load it in and get results without doing very much. The ME will never be perfect, but there's clear improvement. I love this years match engine, and I build my own tactics and use the roles and shouts because I feel that way you're not exploiting any holes (unless you happen to stumble on one), and your tinkering makes a difference in the game.

The defensive part of ME is just far from attacking counterpart, which has been improved greatly over the last couple of years. I don't want to go into great detail about it, but defending just doesn't work properly. All the defense is 1on1 in FM, there's no team defense. Shots from everywhere every second minute or attack, scoring Maradona like goals after dribbling from own half, games with more than 40 even 50 shots, strikers like Crouch scoring 30+ goals in season....it all happens too frequantly. And it's not only becouse of exploits people are using.

[phnompenhandy]

That is indeed what I said.

If I can reduce human exploitation of corners where it occurs, and also reduce extremes of morale I think everyone will be happy. But so far we havent even started testing some of this internally.........

Paul, please be very clear, this is NOT an intentional human exploitation like in previous versions; this is happening on default settings where the human manager has no idea why so many goals are being scored.

Poolfan, for me a key issue that sets this thread apart from many others is that it is a mature discussion. I ignore the many rant threads about how people hate the game, worst ever, rubbish ME etc etc. Nobody in this thread is saying that. Like most other contributors here, I believe FM12 to be the best version ever, but it is not flawless, and we have identified some problems for which PaulC, Riz Remes, wwfan and others involved in creating the game are grateful and want to put right.

[milnerpoint]

I dont think paul is meaning intentional exploitation, the standard set ups seem to be the ones doing the most damage, but since the AI does not use the same standard set ups as we do, it does not benefit from the problem.

[phnompenhandy]

Alright this is after 50 games in a season with Stoke. Huth and Shawcross are my starting CB's and both assume the default roles of front post back post, Shawcross front, Huth back. I know for a fact that Shawcross scored all his goals from corners whilst Huth did score some long shots also. One player that is drastically skewed is Situ who has a percentage of goals to shots at 42%, and I know that he scored all but one from corners in a spell where he replaced an injured Shawcross. All these goals were scored from the FRONT post glancing the headers in, in between the keeper and the man on the post almost every time. Crouch being the big man he is, didn't score from corners at all.

Just my findings.

As you rightly identify, Situ's stats are problematic; the others are all within the realms of reasonableness. wwfan who is doing the testing is trying to isolate which ket attribute or combination of attribute and positioning is the cause. You've mentioned that Situ is set to attack near post; what are his jump/head/strength/anticipation/off the ball attributes? I think this info might help.

[hursty2]

Jumping: 16
Heading: 15
Strength: 16
Anticipation: 15
Off The Ball: 8

Which suggests he's a beast.

[FishBowlMan]

All these goals were scored from the FRONT post glancing the headers in, in between the keeper and the man on the post almost every time.

This is exactly the issue I'm having. Here's an example from a preseason friendly. I am Luton (Conference) against Preston (league 1):



Antwi at the near post has got himself completely free of his marker, running towards the inswinging near-post corner. He has a free header and scores.

There is terrible marking from the AI at this corner. Why do Preston have 2 people on the edge of the 18 yard box doing absolutely nothing? Why has the man on the far post suddenly run towards the penalty spot?

It seems to me that the defenders and goal keeper are completely unaware of Antwi's prescence, and that the corner is aimed at the near post, thus anyone attacking this side of the pitch is posing a threat.

Look closely at the Keeper's actions. When he finally works out the trajectory of the ball, he runs towards the edge of the 6 yard box, right in the middle of the goal, presumably to be in a position to catch the ball. He has not worked out there is a danger posed by the attacking player. He either has not seen him, or assumes that he will miss the ball and wants to be in a position to catch the cross.

After the ball is headed, the keeper tries to move back to the goal line, only to bang into the person who has left his back post position.

My guess is that something is wrong with the decision making of the goalkeeper. Surely he should anticipate the main danger is from the attacking player at the near post and position himself accordingly. If the attacker misses the ball, then he must rely on a defender to clear the danger, and get himself in position to deal with the next threat.

I have noticed this behaviour many times from the AI goalkeeper dealing with corners and general crosses where an attacker gets in front of where he wants to position himself to catch the ball.

[phnompenhandy]

To be fair, it is a pre-season friendly. This is when players are just starting to be familiar with the manager's tactics and instructions. I see any amount of defensive howlers on both sides in pre-season.

[jdrawmer]

i've been scoring heads like this all season, and although it seems to be a glitch, I don't want to NOT do it, just beacuse it's getting me a lot of freak goals. I worked on the set pieces myself so feel I deserve it!

There's always going to be exploits it's just whether you choose to exploit them. If I find my own exploits, I use them - if I read about exploits, I tend not to

[FishBowlMan]

To be fair, it is a pre-season friendly. This is when players are just starting to be familiar with the manager's tactics and instructions. I see any amount of defensive howlers on both sides in pre-season.

Agree with that. Its happened all season though. This just happened to be a good uncluttered video to demonstrate the principle. I've scored 11 corners in similar fashion in about 20 games, as well as several goals from crosses with the keeper basically not positioning himself properly, but coming out to collect the cross as if the attacker wasn't there and presenting an open net for a header or tap in.

[FishBowlMan]

There's always going to be exploits it's just whether you choose to exploit them.

Its happening a lot with standard crosses as well as corners though. Unless I force my side to play purely through the middle, I'm going to score a lot more of these type of goals than I should be getting. Result is undeserved wins and sky high morale leading to more goals, more undeserved wins etc etc

[BiggusD]

The standard attacking corner tactic is exploitative because it is set up intentionally to draw everyone away from the two CD's who are attacking the near and far posts. They typically have only one opponent near them, and that is in my experience typically their shortest player.

As long as the defending corner instructions are so generalized as they are, and marking their one main aerial threat with two or more players remain impossible, corner kicks will continue to be unbalanced in this game.

Besides, too many good corner kicks come from players who are not good at corner kick taking. Making that attribute more sensitive would fix part of this problem. 15+ 1/3 hits target, 11-14 1/5 hits target, 6-10 1/10 hits target, 1-5 doesn't target... I say why not?

[FishBowlMan]

The standard attacking corner tactic is exploitative because it is set up intentionally to draw everyone away from the two CD's who are attacking the near and far posts. They typically have only one opponent near them, and that is in my experience typically their shortest player.

As long as the defending corner instructions are so generalized as they are, and marking their one main aerial threat with two or more players remain impossible, corner kicks will continue to be unbalanced in this game.

Besides, too many good corner kicks come from players who are not good at corner kick taking. Making that attribute more sensitive would fix part of this problem. 15+ 1/3 hits target, 11-14 1/5 hits target, 6-10 1/10 hits target, 1-5 doesn't target... I say why not?

That doesn't address why the keeper reacts the way he does though. His movement seems to take him in a straight line out towards the penalty spot to catch the ball, completely ignoring the attacking threat between him and the ball. He only changes direction to get back into his goal after the ball has been headed into the now empty net. If there was no attacking player coming in for a near post corner, that would make sense, but he seems completely unaware of the attacking threat and still wanders out to catch the cross as though he's in the pre-match warm up.

I could understand it if the attacking player just managed beat him to the ball, but there's often 5 or 6 yards between him and the attacker, often with a completely clear view.

[phnompenhandy]

The standard attacking corner tactic is exploitative because it is set up intentionally to draw everyone away from the two CD's who are attacking the near and far posts. They typically have only one opponent near them, and that is in my experience typically their shortest player.

As long as the defending corner instructions are so generalized as they are, and marking their one main aerial threat with two or more players remain impossible, corner kicks will continue to be unbalanced in this game.

Besides, too many good corner kicks come from players who are not good at corner kick taking. Making that attribute more sensitive would fix part of this problem. 15+ 1/3 hits target, 11-14 1/5 hits target, 6-10 1/10 hits target, 1-5 doesn't target... I say why not?

Yes, that's something VERY specific that PaulC can look at - how do AI defenders set themselves up in defending corners? My best corner-taker has 11 for corners; fewer should hit the mark. Manageable tweaks, I would have thought.

[Äktsjon Männ]

15+ 1/3 hits target, 11-14 1/5 hits target, 6-10 1/10 hits target, 1-5 doesn't target... I say why not?

Surely can't be made *that* simplistic. How would lower league teams score from set pieces?

[PaulC]

It certainly isn't that simplistic. Getting the stats to match up to RL across the various levels we simulate means it's a constant balancing act.

[grep]

That is indeed what I said.

If I can reduce human exploitation of corners where it occurs, and also reduce extremes of morale I think everyone will be happy. But so far we havent even started testing some of this internally.........

Does that mean the first patch will miss anything related to difficulty/easiness issue ?

[Spurs_Q8]

Hampton & Richamond Borough ( First season )


Media Prediction : click here

After 24 games : click here






can't say anymore ...

[ReggaeBwoy]

Hardly reveals anything, Bournemouth irl got to the play-offs last season despite being tipped for relegation due to a lack of funds and only a limited amount of players where it was often the case they had to field reserve/youth players.

[BiggusD]

It certainly isn't that simplistic. Getting the stats to match up to RL across the various levels we simulate means it's a constant balancing act.

Yeah but hitting the target doesn't equal a goal. Missing the target doesn't equal no goal either. Players that are not good set piece takers should not be able to aim at one head 2 meters in the air from 30 meters away with enough force to allow the target to hit a good, forceful header at goal almost every time he attempts it. No let me correct that; players that are not -fantastic- set piece takers should not be able to do this at all. The difference between success and failure when the target is so small and midways into a trajectory is microscopic. We're talking calculations that would put shame to the stuff they do at NASA here. This, set piece takers practice at day in and day out for years and even decades.

The rest of us just whip it in aiming at a general area and with an attempted curve... and the force of that kick is the maximum we dare to do because we know that our technique doesn't allow any more - too much force and the ball's in orbit.

Once we have kicked the ball into that general area, the rest is up to the players in the box.

What set piece experts do is, as explained above, an entirely different story. FM needs to reflect this for the sake of realism and I believe it would fix the amount of corner goals, but not entirely - not until the set piece instructions also reflect real life by allowing multiple markers of the main aerial threats.

[Erimus1876]

Hardly reveals anything, Bournemouth irl got to the play-offs last season despite being tipped for relegation due to a lack of funds and only a limited amount of players where it was often the case they had to field reserve/youth players.

Don't make it out to be something that can be so easily dismissed because Bournemouth did it IRL. Read the thread. That is not a one-off. Its typical of the type of seasons those complaining of an easy game are expriencing, and suspected to be caused by some of the insightful information garnered later in this thread (info SI are looking at to find a solution that will suit all).

[PaulC]

Yeah but hitting the target doesn't equal a goal. Missing the target doesn't equal no goal either. Players that are not good set piece takers should not be able to aim at one head 2 meters in the air from 30 meters away with enough force to allow the target to hit a good, forceful header at goal almost every time he attempts it. No let me correct that; players that are not -fantastic- set piece takers should not be able to do this at all. The difference between success and failure when the target is so small and midways into a trajectory is microscopic. We're talking calculations that would put shame to the stuff they do at NASA here. This, set piece takers practice at day in and day out for years and even decades.

The rest of us just whip it in aiming at a general area and with an attempted curve... and the force of that kick is the maximum we dare to do because we know that our technique doesn't allow any more - too much force and the ball's in orbit.

Once we have kicked the ball into that general area, the rest is up to the players in the box.

What set piece experts do is, as explained above, an entirely different story. FM needs to reflect this for the sake of realism and I believe it would fix the amount of corner goals, but not entirely - not until the set piece instructions also reflect real life by allowing multiple markers of the main aerial threats.

I agree with this, and have made delivery tougher to achieve for the next update.

But there are elements of set pieces that cant be addressed until we rework ball and player physics, which we are working towards but have no release year pencilled in for yet.

[Loversleaper]

I agree with this, and have made delivery tougher to achieve for the next update.

But there are elements of set pieces that cant be addressed until we rework ball and player physics, which we are working towards but have no release year pencilled in for yet.

I am sorry to bang on about the Match Preparation, but I think it would be a good idea for Riz to sit down with the people who program Training and maybe come up with some way to link 'familiarity' with the training regimes. It would maybe open up for more options so that the Shouts don't become contradictory in existance, maybe bigger clubs (players with higher stamina/quality/facilities, or something in those lines) can handle larger training regimes thus opening more options...

[phnompenhandy]

I am sorry to bang on about the Match Preparation, but I think it would be a good idea for Riz to sit down with the people who program Training and maybe come up with some way to link 'familiarity' with the training regimes. It would maybe open up for more options so that the Shouts don't become contradictory in existance, maybe bigger clubs (players with higher stamina/quality/facilities, or something in those lines) can handle larger training regimes thus opening more options...

Completely agree but suspect that might be too much for a patch.

[szp]

For me, this game is a little bit easier than FM 11 but... till april. I've played one save with HSV and one with West Ham. In both situations, my team played very good, we were leaders with great advantage, but in april everything changed. I couldn't win a single game. My players forgot how to play. Last 6-7 matches both with HSV and West Ham were without a win. I've tried changing my tactics, team talks etc., but it didn't help. Like a curse. How do you deal with such problem?

(sorry for my english)

[BiggusD]

For me, this game is a little bit easier than FM 11 but... till april. I've played one save with HSV and one with West Ham. In both situations, my team played very good, we were leaders with great advantage, but in april everything changed. I couldn't win a single game. My players forgot how to play. Last 6-7 matches both with HSV and West Ham were without a win. I've tried changing my tactics, team talks etc., but it didn't help. Like a curse. How do you deal with such problem?

(sorry for my english)

That's "squeaky-bottom-time", the part of the season where the players feel the weight of expectation on their shoulders and become nervous.

Until you get players with high Determination, pressure handling, professionality, big matches, ambition etc... that will remain a problem for you. Reducing the pressure in the team talks can help, but at the same time, low-pressure team talks (like "go out and have fun") are typically unable to motivate the players to fight hard and give everything they have, so they can backfire.

[ReggaeBwoy]

Don't make it out to be something that can be so easily dismissed because Bournemouth did it IRL. Read the thread. That is not a one-off. Its typical of the type of seasons those complaining of an easy game are expriencing, and suspected to be caused by some of the insightful information garnered later in this thread (info SI are looking at to find a solution that will suit all).

Well if you see other threads and posts for instant the penultimate one on this page and many others a lot of people are experiecing difficulty, the guy is 1st with Hampton and Richmond but there are many teams close to him, if he was clear by over 10 points he would have a point but after 30 games or so he may well be dropped right down the table, inconclusive for me

[Spurs_Q8]

Well if you see other threads and posts for instant the penultimate one on this page and many others a lot of people are experiecing difficulty, the guy is 1st with Hampton and Richmond but there are many teams close to him, if he was clear by over 10 points he would have a point but after 30 games or so he may well be dropped right down the table, inconclusive for me

even if i dropped to 3rd, 4th or 5th, that's wouldn't prove you are right, because it's still very over-achievin for at team expected to finish 19th, remember .. it's just three places from the foot of the table, I've played in the season division for better teams, experienced more difficulities than this.

[knap]

Spurs

Can you just confirm tactic used, teamtalks and goals from corners.

PS

Anty transfers?

[Matej]

PaulC, do you have success with fixing corners and moral prob? When you could release next patch? Are we talking about few weeks or couple of months? Im not rushing things, just dont know should i wait week or two, or start playin. I didnt play real career (usually 10+ seasons) since FM2011.

Suggestion for FM2013. It would be good that strikers dont score so many goals, usually my striker(s) score 40+ goals per season. Last few days i didnt write much, but i was investigating that problem here and on other forums, and many players have same thinking. On this forum you have some threads where P. Crouch, for example, scored 43 goals in one season. Thats impossible mission for him in real life, if you look his career statistic.

One more thing for FM2013, i noticed that my players play much better for me, then for AI clubs. Every time i sell some player, and go to his history 3-4 years later, i see he has much worse avg. rating in AI team. That happens in 95% of the time. Same thing is when i buy some player from AI club. if he played 6.42 for AI club, im sure he will play over 7 for me. Are we so better then AI?

[PaulC]

No timeframe decided yet Matej.

[el_magico89]

does anyone else experience a problem like your own players dont wanna play for your, because they think, "the lack of experiences could damage the team"??? Ive started a save with everton, my managerial reputation is very low, from the first day on, almost the whole team was struggling to motivate themselves to play for me. now 10 games played, 26 out of 30 points, leading the table, qtr finals in carling cup and still there are several players with the same problem. its really annoying, as I cant get the best out of my team, when some players are not motivated. in fm 11, this problem was very quickly solved, mostly after the first 4-5 friendlies, very you really convinced everyone or at least after the first couple of games. but in fm 12, in another save, even reaching the 3rd place with everton and winning the carling cup, in the next season, there were still players, who had motivation problems, because of my low reputation. what do you guys normally do? do you set your reputation to high when you manage a pl team?

[grep]

One more thing for FM2013, i noticed that my players play much better for me, then for AI clubs. Every time i sell some player, and go to his history 3-4 years later, i see he has much worse avg. rating in AI team. That happens in 95% of the time. Same thing is when i buy some player from AI club. if he played 6.42 for AI club, im sure he will play over 7 for me. Are we so better then AI?

Good point Matej,

I think anyway it depends on the subject of this thread rather than a discrepancy ( between AI and human ) of players' performance.

[Keyzer Soze]

One more thing for FM2013, i noticed that my players play much better for me, then for AI clubs. Every time i sell some player, and go to his history 3-4 years later, i see he has much worse avg. rating in AI team. That happens in 95% of the time. Same thing is when i buy some player from AI club. if he played 6.42 for AI club, im sure he will play over 7 for me. Are we so better then AI?

Actually i always thought that this could be normal. For example, in FM2011 i was playing with Benfica and sold Nicolas Gaitan to Man United. For me, Gaitan, played very well, in a 451 formation, playing as a inside foward. He scored an average 15 goals per season, with a rating above 7.50.

When he moved to Man United, he start playing in a 442 formation, as a left winger. Of course he scored much fewer goals. Also he average rating droped just below 7 (less goals, less rating). But this could be related to the fact that the english primier division is much more competitive then the portuguese league.

I usually play in Portugal, so usually the players move to a better league (spain, england, italy, germany). It's harder for a player to get a higher rating when the competition is fiercest.

In my saves, i have lots of examples like the Gaitan one, so this is why i never thought about this as an issue (bug?).

[phnompenhandy]

PaulC, do you have success with fixing corners and moral prob? When you could release next patch? Are we talking about few weeks or couple of months? Im not rushing things, just dont know should i wait week or two, or start playin. I didnt play real career (usually 10+ seasons) since FM2011.

Suggestion for FM2013. It would be good that strikers dont score so many goals, usually my striker(s) score 40+ goals per season. Last few days i didnt write much, but i was investigating that problem here and on other forums, and many players have same thinking. On this forum you have some threads where P. Crouch, for example, scored 43 goals in one season. Thats impossible mission for him in real life, if you look his career statistic.

One more thing for FM2013, i noticed that my players play much better for me, then for AI clubs. Every time i sell some player, and go to his history 3-4 years later, i see he has much worse avg. rating in AI team. That happens in 95% of the time. Same thing is when i buy some player from AI club. if he played 6.42 for AI club, im sure he will play over 7 for me. Are we so better then AI?

I certainly notice this ALL the time, in all positions. That goes way beyond the specific fixes being discussed in this thread; however, I wonder if that is intentional. The game still has to be playable and rewarding to the casual gamer who make up the majority, so for the average FM gamer to be a better manager than FM SAF has a logic about it. Whilst I hope SI strive to improve the AI (in match and outwith matches) in all areas year-on-year, the pro-human bias must always be there. The more hard-core gamer can always set himself challenges like only buying players scouted and never using player/staff search.

Nb. regarding your quick question, did you notice PaulC saying a few posts back that he hadn't started on it yet? Patience ...

[jdrawmer]

I certainly notice this ALL the time, in all positions. That goes way beyond the specific fixes being discussed in this thread; however, I wonder if that is intentional. The game still has to be playable and rewarding to the casual gamer who make up the majority, so for the average FM gamer to be a better manager than FM SAF has a logic about it. Whilst I hope SI strive to improve the AI (in match and outwith matches) in all areas year-on-year, the pro-human bias must always be there. The more hard-core gamer can always set himself challenges like only buying players scouted and never using player/staff search.

Nb. regarding your quick question, did you notice PaulC saying a few posts back that he hadn't started on it yet? Patience ...

To be honest, I don't see this as a real issue? Typically, if a player has played well for you, then he will have moved to a BETTER club (or at least, better league), and so he's always going to struggle to replicate that form. It's obviously also down to the fact that most AI players that are successful, know how to play the game in terms of tactics / formation, regardless of the players at your disposal.

[Matej]

Keyzer Soze- i know what you thinking and i agree with you, in that part. Problem is it happens ALL THE TIME, like phnompenhandy said. Even if you sell your player in league where you play, he would play worse. Doesnt metter if the AI club is stronger or weaker then your club. Maybe 1 in 20 times player would play better in AI club. THats weird.

jdrawmer- same answer

[whilewolf]

PaulC, do you have success with fixing corners and moral prob? When you could release next patch? Are we talking about few weeks or couple of months? Im not rushing things, just dont know should i wait week or two, or start playin. I didnt play real career (usually 10+ seasons) since FM2011.

Suggestion for FM2013. It would be good that strikers dont score so many goals, usually my striker(s) score 40+ goals per season. Last few days i didnt write much, but i was investigating that problem here and on other forums, and many players have same thinking. On this forum you have some threads where P. Crouch, for example, scored 43 goals in one season. Thats impossible mission for him in real life, if you look his career statistic.

One more thing for FM2013, i noticed that my players play much better for me, then for AI clubs. Every time i sell some player, and go to his history 3-4 years later, i see he has much worse avg. rating in AI team. That happens in 95% of the time. Same thing is when i buy some player from AI club. if he played 6.42 for AI club, im sure he will play over 7 for me. Are we so better then AI?

The AI cant look at players like you do and tailor it's instructions to them. It sees players as an Age a position a reputation and a CA.If you imagine in their prime Beckham and Giggs having the same CA and being RM LM respectively the AI would assign them both the same instruction while you could examine their attributes and set different instructions to get the best from both of them.
Lots of problems with AI squad building can in my opinion only be addressed by rewriting the AI to look at players in a much more detailed and human manor.

[Matej]

whilewolf - yes, i think you said good reason why this is happening. I really didnt know AI sees ONLY age, pos, rep and CA. THats horrible. I knew its because of bad AI, thats why i wrote it would be good to fix that in FM13. I know they really need new AI, this one is close to the death.