View Poll Results: How are you finding the difficulty on FM2012?

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  • The game is too easy.

    532 30.33%
  • The difficulty is about right.

    1,081 61.63%
  • The game is too hard.

    141 8.04%
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Thread: FM2012 difficulty.

  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    With the popularity of the game these days, I'd have introduces difficulty option a few versions ago...Long time ago only die hard fans were playing FM and therefore having a hard game was popular with everyone. The game is now more mainstream, but making it only for the mainstream player is rubbish as it alienates their established fanbase. To be honest I don't see a problem with a difficulty setting even though many people are against it...What is wrong with the idea? Every other game has it...I can give you plenty of examples of games that I am awful at and that I am good at so I play at different difficulty level...If everyone else does, why does SI refuse to do it, when obviously it will going to work for today's FM? I am challenging anyone here to give me a reason why it would not work from a player's perspective, I don't know how much effort it is going to be for SI but they sold plenty of copies this year so they should have the resources to do it.

    KUBI - this is not the only FM forum on the internet - not everyone has to post here. I don't post much on these forums but I've been reading this one particularly since it was created basically, I just didn't feel the need to post in it.
    Whos says the game isnt at the highest difficulty setting possible for the available resources and common technology? There might be a slight issue with moral which is causing extended winning or losing streaks, Paul has already been over that, again i question if you have actually read this thread. Outwith that there is little the game does differently to FM11 so if you found that ok then that says something under the hood we are not aware of is maybe causing this issue for a select few people, and not everyone. Which makes finding the issue very very difficult.
    If you feel so strongly then provide Paul with PKM's of your games, he has been asking for these all along so he can check his ideas against save games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mintah View Post
    This definitely isn't the case. I use very low MP and I'm still doing quite well.
    Same here. No MP set & no focus set makes little difference in 'easiness' wether Average, High, or Very High is set. Its the same thing, winning games at a canter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coentrao View Post
    That's what confuses me, i haven't found anything that easy so far, are you playing with just a default 442 as well or are you creating your own tactics?
    Default 442 has nothing to do with it. I used default 442 and shouts in FM11 and it was never this easy. Unless this years default tactics have changed and are much better than last years ? In my normal save I'm using a custom made tactic now and still winning. The only thing that seems to effect these long winning and losing streaks seems to be morale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Whos says the game isnt at the highest difficulty setting possible for the available resources and common technology? There might be a slight issue with moral which is causing extended winning or losing streaks, Paul has already been over that, again i question if you have actually read this thread. Outwith that there is little the game does differently to FM11 so if you found that ok then that says something under the hood we are not aware of is maybe causing this issue for a select few people, and not everyone. Which makes finding the issue very very difficult.
    If you feel so strongly then provide Paul with PKM's of your games, he has been asking for these all along so he can check his ideas against save games.
    I don't know who says it but I can see from my own experience so far that this is the case. I did not say FM11 was hard, too, so I am not saying it changed overnight from FM11 to FM12. FM11 compared to, say, FM04 is quite easy but there is a limit to everything - for me the limit is FM12 as it is even easier than FM11. That is why in my previous post I said difficulty level should have been introduced A FEW versions ago - it still isn't.

    When I am leading German 3rd with no excessive effort and the simplest tactics possible with the worst possible team in the league and semi-pro footabller manager profile, I don't need anyone to tell me that this is not the highest possible difficulty level - it simply isn't. It is like taking Swansea and winning Premierleague in Season 1 - how is that close to reality? Isn't realism what we love(d) about FM?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    I don't know who says it but I can see from my own experience so far that this is the case. I did not say FM11 was hard, too, so I am not saying it changed overnight from FM11 to FM12. FM11 compared to, say, FM04 is quite easy but there is a limit to everything - for me the limit is FM12 as it is even easier than FM11. That is why in my previous post I said difficulty level should have been introduced A FEW versions ago - it still isn't.

    When I am leading German 3rd with no excessive effort and the simplest tactics possible with the worst possible team in the league and semi-pro footabller manager profile, I don't need anyone to tell me that this is not the highest possible difficulty level - it simply isn't. It is like taking Swansea and winning Premierleague in Season 1 - how is that close to reality? Isn't realism what we love(d) about FM?
    It might just be that you're a brilliant manager, Blackpool went to the prem without any funds really , just good manager and team spirit

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    Trouble is whatever I try works in FM12, which is where the problem lies for me..

    Exactly!!! And it doesn't matter if what you're trying are self-imposed handicaps or playing the game 'normally'.... default tactics, no default tactics, MP no MP, training no training... etc. Its the same story. You hit the nail on the head.

    It feels the game is permanently stuck on win mode and some of us have to find ways to find lose mode, or at least inconsistant mode. Thats not bragging, thats the sad truth.

    FM 11 was quite the opposite in my experience.

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    My first two saves on FM12 have resulted in me being sacked both times, I'm finding it quite difficult so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    Isn't realism what we love(d) about FM?
    Not really, realism would be getting a part time managers job if you were lucky at a tiny amature club and spending 30 years doing very little in the footballing world, if you were good enough you would be involved in football at a decent level already. What we enjoy is the fact we can simulate a fantasy footballing world based on real life people, clubs, rules, comps ect. As soon as you click continue for the 1st time the FM world and real world become completely different, anything can happen and very little should be ruled out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    When I am leading German 3rd with no excessive effort and the simplest tactics possible with the worst possible team in the league and semi-pro footabller manager profile, I don't need anyone to tell me that this is not the highest possible difficulty level - it simply isn't. It is like taking Swansea and winning Premierleague in Season 1 - how is that close to reality? Isn't realism what we love(d) about FM?
    What you must realise, and you could if you had read the thread, is that, another user, in another save, managing the same german team from the 3rd division, will struggle and dont have any sucess.
    Understand now, why this isn't a case of adding difficulty levels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReggaeBwoy View Post
    It might just be that you're a brilliant manager, Blackpool went to the prem without any funds really , just good manager and team spirit
    I tried Blackpool in FM11 and resigned as I was doing too bad Obviously this isn't the case! - I think this was my only real disappointment in FM11, the other teams I took did great - but when I was making them perform better, it at least involved scouting for good regens or fiddling with tactics, improving trainng, etc...in FM12, it seems to me, you win by default.

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    I no longer play the game until it is fixed. I don't understand what is the fun keeping winning with no challenge at all! And SI seems to be "happy" with those 64 % and do nothing to improve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    What you must realise, and you could if you had read the thread, is that, another user, in another save, managing the same german team from the 3rd division, will struggle and dont have any sucess.
    Understand now, why this isn't a case of adding difficulty levels?
    No, tbh, care to explain? I think what you just said proves that difficulty setting would be extremely helpful as it would make the game more challenging for me and less challenging for him - so that we both have fun playing it, instead of none of us. Seriously, I did not get your point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    No, tbh, care to explain? I think what you just said proves that difficulty setting would be extremely helpful as it would make the game more challenging for me and less challenging for him - so that we both have fun playing it, instead of none of us. Seriously, I did not get your point.
    Start a new save game with the same german team! Do exactly the same.. and perhaps you will get a big surprise!

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    No, tbh, care to explain? I think what you just said proves that difficulty setting would be extremely helpful as it would make the game more challenging for me and less challenging for him - so that we both have fun playing it, instead of none of us. Seriously, I did not get your point.
    Therein lies the problem with your posts, you dont appear to understand the problem and seem to have ignore everything trying to explain it.
    There appears to be an issue with CERTAIN peoples games starting off to well and becoming easy, its not a problem every single person in every single game experience, hence why it has not already been sorted. Its very complicated to find an issue that only occurs under certain circumstances, especailly if you dont know the exact circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Therein lies the problem with your posts, you dont appear to understand the problem and seem to have ignore everything trying to explain it.
    There appears to be an issue with CERTAIN peoples games starting off to well and becoming easy, its not a problem every single person in every single game experience, hence why it has not already been sorted. Its very complicated to find an issue that only occurs under certain circumstances, especailly if you dont know the exact circumstances.
    Its certainly not a 'minority' complaining though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanNUFC View Post
    Its certainly not a 'minority' complaining though.
    Permit me some pedantry less than 50% is a minority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Therein lies the problem with your posts, you dont appear to understand the problem and seem to have ignore everything trying to explain it.
    There appears to be an issue with CERTAIN peoples games starting off to well and becoming easy, its not a problem every single person in every single game experience, hence why it has not already been sorted. Its very complicated to find an issue that only occurs under certain circumstances, especailly if you dont know the exact circumstances.
    Well, it happened three times in a row for me. If it was 1 game, I would not be writing her, you know...If we say Napoli was okey as they are good anyway (still beating Inter 1-4 and Juventus 0-4 and Sporting Lisbon 7:1), what should I say about Wolfsburg, which I took with rubbish players and no budget to buy anyone really good and got them to 2nd and 1st places in two consecutive seasons. The only reason I started in German 3rd is to check exactly your point - I thought I was lucky to just start well and g o on winning with the good teams..but when you start all over again and do the same thing with a rubbish team when just pressing the spacebar, you get tired of it.

    And what do you mean by certain people - the game is the same for everyone. The AI and match engine are the same for everyone, the tactics code is the same for everyone, the morale is the same for everyone. How many games should I start to find one that is challenging 5-6? Where's the fun? I thought every time you start with the worst team in a country it would be hard...

    Keyzer - I might try that and see, but I didn't buy the game for that you know? 30 pounds to keep testing the game, I thought this was SI's job?

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    A minority will always be a minority, when compare to a majority!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    Permit me some pedantry less than 50% is a minority.
    So you're basing that off just this one poll? Bit foolish.

    I just mean there is a large amount of people complaining, and they should not be ignored just cause of one poll result on one forum.
    Last edited by SeanNUFC; 11-11-2011 at 17:36.

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    TBH, the idea of difficulty level needs to be scrapped, its not like Fifa where you control what every player does, it would be to complicated to have difficulty level in managing a team on FM and thus I also think it would create more problems in terms of what we find out before SI even notice

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    And what do you mean by certain people - the game is the same for everyone. The AI and match engine are the same for everyone, the tactics code is the same for everyone, the morale is the same for everyone. How many games should I start to find one that is challenging 5-6? Where's the fun? I thought every time you start with the worst team in a country it would be hard...
    No it's not!

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    On a sidenote, for all the people saying we are minority - I worked at Airbus last year - Customer Services division - if 30% of airlines having bought our aircraft came back saying we have sold them rubbish aircraft, I'd try to help them, not ignore them - they might not come back you know?

    "No it's not!" - are you saying my morale code is different from yours? Is this a joke?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanNUFC View Post
    So you're basing that off just this one poll? Bit foolish.
    See that big green thing? it's a smiley, shouldn't have even needed that to show it was a joke but it seems some people are just here to argue;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    On a sidenote, for all the people saying we are minority - I worked at Airbus last year - Customer Services division - if 30% of airlines having bought our aircraft came back saying we have sold them rubbish aircraft, I'd try to help them, not ignore them - they might not come back you know?

    "No it's not!" - are you saying my morale code is different from yours? Is this a joke?
    You really need to read the whole thread, the problem that's been identified is that it ISN'T the same for everybody when you start a new save under what we'd expect were identical circumstances.

    That's the root of the problem..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    See that big green thing? it's a smiley, shouldn't have even needed that to show it was a joke but it seems some people are just here to argue;)
    Fair enough kriss. ;) Wasn't arguing though. ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    On a sidenote, for all the people saying we are minority - I worked at Airbus last year - Customer Services division - if 30% of airlines having bought our aircraft came back saying we have sold them rubbish aircraft, I'd try to help them, not ignore them - they might not come back you know?

    "No it's not!" - are you saying my morale code is different from yours? Is this a joke?
    No! I'm saying that Morale can get big changes from small details.

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    The way I'm seeing this whole issue is SI really don't have a clue on where the problem is but are doing their best in the circumstances, and will try to appease everyone.

    Those of us who know 100% for sure that FM12 is far far easier than previous versions can't pinpoint the problem either. All we can do is talk about our experiences, maybe run a few limited tests since none of us have the time or resources available to us like SI do, and thats about it.

    Its pointless trying to convince anyone whose currently playing FM12 and enjoying the challenge that there's a problem. Most won't believe it until they see it themselves, and the rest won't even care. Thats fine and totally understandable.

    Adding skill levels will never work because they are subjective. Whats perceived as hard for one, will be quite easy for someone else, and vice-versa. Other ways have to be found to up the difficulty level for some, while leaving the rest to play their games unaffected. Maybe more options in the editor could be one way to do that in future FM's. For now though, the 30% who are dissapointed will just have suck it up or go back to FM11. Pity Steam don't issue refunds, but we all live and learn. Next year I'll be waiting for 13.3 before making a decision (hopefully I won't still be playing '11 with SI having solved the problem with '12 by then).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post
    The way I'm seeing this whole issue is SI really don't have a clue on where the problem is but are doing their best in the circumstances, and will try to appease everyone.

    Those of us who know 100% for sure that FM12 is far far easier than previous versions can't pinpoint the problem either. All we can do is talk about our experiences, maybe run a few limited tests since none of us have the time or resources available to us like SI do, and thats about it.

    Its pointless trying to convince anyone whose currently playing FM12 and enjoying the challenge that there's a problem. Most won't believe it until they see it themselves, and the rest won't even care. Thats fine and totally understandable.

    Adding skill levels will never work because they are subjective. Whats perceived as hard for one, will be quite easy for someone else, and vice-versa. Other ways have to be found to up the difficulty level for some, while leaving the rest to play their games unaffected. Maybe more options in the editor could be one way to do that in future FM's. For now though, the 30% who are dissapointed will just have suck it up or go back to FM11. Pity Steam don't issue refunds, but we all live and learn. Next year I'll be waiting for 13.3 before making a descion (hopefully I won't still be playing '11 with SI having solved the problem with '12 by then).
    It is subjective in every other game in this world - and it works. Why wouldn't it work with FM? The trouble with FM is - other games that get boring on single player, you just start multiplayer so that is challenging as you play against real people. FM can't be played multiplayer by many people due to time requirements so when single player is messed up, I feel like I've given my money away.

    Yes, but the code is the same and obviously this code in FM12 is set up far too easy - what do I have to do to upset them, I've not managed to do it by now(5 seasons playing, including the demo).
    Last edited by alexyfoot; 11-11-2011 at 17:46.

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    I can never get my head around difficulty levels on manager games. Only experienced it once on the fifa manager demo and just seemed odd to me. I wouldn't be in favour of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post
    Its pointless trying to convince anyone whose currently playing FM12 and enjoying the challenge that there's a problem. Most won't believe it until they see it themselves, and the rest won't even care. Thats fine and totally understandable.
    Erimus1876,

    Im not trying to convince anyone. In fact i trully believe in everyone that says the game its too easy. What all of you must understand is that this "ease" is not an issue to everybody:

    a) because some people actually find the game hard
    b) because they like a easy game, simple as that

    What i dont like, is been called stupid because i find FM2012 hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    I am sorry but anybody saying the game is not easy is either a complete idiot or mentally ill.

    1st Save - Napoli (prediction 5-6 I think)
    1 - Champions, Italian Cup
    2 - Champions, Italian Cup, CL Final (lost because had cup final 2 days before the CL final and players were tired...)

    1st Save Continued - Wolfsburg (prediction 15-16 I think)
    3 - 2nd + German Cup
    gave up on save as I was destroying everyone in Germany season 4...

    Decided to restart with some rubbish team to test if the game is really THAT easy so...
    Darmstadt in German Third Division (prediction 20th, no wage budget, no transfer budget)

    Currently I am 1st, 7 pts in front of 2nd from 16 games. 10 games won in a row (having 4-5 injured players all the time and almost no subs. I win even away, with 9 or 10 men without much tweaking of tactics).

    ABSOLUTE DISGRACE SI! I actually paid for this game and feel like I've wasted my money.

    mind you I play since CM99...I have struggled at some point on all versions up to now except FM12. Easiest game ever. I am not paying for FM13 unless SI publish a FIX for the current game.
    alexyfoot, i understand why you are angry, im angry 2. But if you want that SI make harder game, please, send your save to PaulC, he wrote in this thread that it would be good to send him saves. I completly agree with you, your results in first 3 years with Napoly and especially with Wolfsburg are just 2 good, not to mention your save with Darmstadt.

    I dont agree with your sayin that others are complete i. or mentally ill. Maybe they just not so good managers or new players.
    Like in any other forums, we are not all the same. Some people here have lower IQ ofc. , but tellin them they are mentally ill is to harsh. I know you said those things because you are upset, but calm down now m8 and try to help us with your informations etc.

    P.s. If someone say to you that Napoli is great club, just ignore them. THey obv. didnt read you was great with Wolfsburg and Darmstadt. I just wonder since when is easy to win 2 serie a in a row + final of champ league with Napoly? i guess Inter, Milan, Roma and Juve are not good clubs anymore.
    Last edited by Matej; 11-11-2011 at 17:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanNUFC View Post
    I can never get my head around difficulty levels on manager games. Only experienced it once on the fifa manager demo and just seemed odd to me. I wouldn't be in favour of them.
    Well, I've played FM for 13 years, I would play on hardest possible setting and AI will be smarter than the current rubbish one in FM12. If I play FM for the first time, I will play on easy/normal, where AI and Morale management would be on the level of FM12. It is quite a simple concept that has been part of gaming since they were created...Why does SI refuse to do it is beyond me when it is so obvious that the game needs it. If SI can't develop a smarter AI, then let us know so that I start playing some other game for my hobby(only joking, obviously they can...).

    Matej - you are right. It is a bit harsh, what I meant is either they aren't very smart or they are new to the game. I really doubt anyone with brains of the experienced players will struggle on FM12.
    Last edited by alexyfoot; 11-11-2011 at 17:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanNUFC View Post
    I can never get my head around difficulty levels on manager games. Only experienced it once on the fifa manager demo and just seemed odd to me. I wouldn't be in favour of them.
    Yeah, i agree! It's a bit weird.
    A think the Editor ideia is much better! Give to the users an editor where you can modify the most important aspect of the game that might influence the "level of difficulty".
    That way, people can mess around the way they wanted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    Yeah, i agree! It's a bit weird.
    A think the Editor ideia is much better! Give to the users an editor where you can modify the most important aspect of the game that might influence the "level of difficulty".
    That way, people can mess around the way they wanted.
    This is just like a difficulty setting with advanced settings (ref FIFA12 - where, on top of AI ability setting from amateur to world class, you control shot accuracy, shot power, pass accuracy, pass power, goalkeeper skill, etc). Your suggestion is absolutely the same concept as what EA do - whether it is part of the editor or part of game set-up, I don't really care as long as I can set it up the way I want it before starting a game..

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    FWIW i'm finding the game a lil tougher than v11. I can't do with 12 that i could with 11 and take my small team through consecutive season's finishing first, and advancing No... I'm struggling lol which is fine. Seems the learning curve in v12 is a bit steep in comparison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    Well, I've played FM for 13 years, I would play on hardest possible setting and AI will be smarter than the current rubbish one in FM12. If I play FM for the first time, I will play on easy/normal, where AI and Morale management would be on the level of FM12. It is quite a simple concept that has been part of gaming since they were created...Why does SI refuse to do it is beyond me when it is so obvious that the game needs it. If SI can't develop a smarter AI, then let us know so that I start playing some other game for my hobby(only joking, obviously they can...).

    Matej - you are right. It is a bit harsh, what I meant is either they aren't very smart or they are new to the game. I really doubt anyone with brains of the experienced players will struggle on FM12.
    True m8, im playin this game even more then you, its close to 20 years now. And BELIVE me, i wonna difficulty levels, i pray for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    True m8, im playin this game even more then you, its close to 20 years now. And BELIVE me, i wonna difficulty levels, i pray for them.
    Such a setting can do no harm. If anyone doesn't want to use - just play on normal, which would be your typical game up to FM12. People can only benefit, as if you are one of the unhappy ones with the standard setting you can actually fix the game yourself by changing difficulty level next time you start a game. That is why I challenged anyone to point out why we shouldn't get such an option - I am still waiting for an answer. I'd especially want to hear the opinion of anyone from SI browsing the forum, I don't think I have come across their opinion on the matter.

    I didn't have a computer 14 years ago, that is why I didn't play it earlier

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    True m8, im playin this game even more then you, its close to 20 years now. And BELIVE me, i wonna difficulty levels, i pray for them.
    I haven't seen yet a valid reason to not adding difficulty levels but if any forumer or better SI could enghlithen us up I would be glad to read them and express a opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    That is why I challenged anyone to point out why we shouldn't get such an option - I am still waiting for an answer. I'd especially want to hear the opinion of anyone from SI browsing the forum, I don't think I have come across their opinion on the matter.
    The answer is that Football Manager is as much a simulation as it is a game. The AI clubs are intended to play under the same rules as human managers, and ideally their decision making would be close to a human manager, in a manner that makes sense in a football context. The only difficulty setting that makes sense, therefore, is that of choosing a stronger club, vs a weaker club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hugo_rune View Post
    The answer is that Football Manager is as much a simulation as it is a game. The AI clubs are intended to play under the same rules as human managers, and ideally their decision making would be close to a human manager, in a manner that makes sense in a football context. The only difficulty setting that makes sense, therefore, is that of choosing a stronger club, vs a weaker club.
    Well if the AI's ability to make decisions was close to that of human counterparts, the game wouldn't have been anywhere as easy as it is today - there can only be 2 reasons:
    1. SI don't want to do it to keep the newbies happy.
    2. SI can't make AI smart enough to provide a challenge for the typical experienced player.

    You can choose an option yourself, I wouldn't bet on 2. as I have no doubt SI developers are smart people.

    So if it was option 1. then the game could be made harder - so why not have three options for players with different game experience, how does the concept of simulation change that fact? I keep seeing this argument but it isn't a good argument in my opinion.

    ...regarding club choice...I took an avarege club and a crappy club on top of the top club - same results, obviously this isn't enough to make a difference. And with so many people saying the same thing, I don't think anyone should deny this issue.
    Last edited by alexyfoot; 11-11-2011 at 18:18.

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    alexyfoot- read 832 post in this thread and look link there from Erimus1876 in this thread. Others ofc can read that 2. THats what we wont and you can support that in wishlist thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    It is subjective in every other game in this world - and it works. Why wouldn't it work with FM? The trouble with FM is - other games that get boring on single player, you just start multiplayer so that is challenging as you play against real people. FM can't be played multiplayer by many people due to time requirements so when single player is messed up, I feel like I've given my money away.
    They won't work in FM for a million reasons. But one major one being not a technical issue but more of a psychological issue. The skill level argument has been a taboo subject on these forums for years because the vast majority are against them, as are SI. Up until this year whenever anyone mentioned the games too easy you'd be swamped by 100 posts all saying "don't be a big team then". Thats the mentality you're up against. As long as the game looks ok on the surface to them, and plays just fine in the short term for them, the vast majority don't care whats going on under the hood. Its a game to some, and a simulation to others. You can't put skill levels on that without ******* off one set over another.

    By the way I'm not talking about those on both sides who've took part in this thread, I think everyone knows on here that the issue isn't simply a case of who or where you manage.

    See my idea about a shift in emphasis away from SI created skill levels and over to player made ones.

    http://community.sigames.com/showthr...=1#post7295781

    Something along these lines is the only way the masses would accept skill levels because they're nicely hidden away, totally optional, and don't ruin Timmy Mourniho's fantastic achievement fantasy of taking [insert non-league team here] to Champions league glory in 6 seasons, because he did it on the "easy setting".

    We have to be given the tools to up the difficulty ourselves, and not just by imposing stuff like LLM rules or using an attribute hiding skin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hugo_rune View Post
    The answer is that Football Manager is as much a simulation as it is a game. The AI clubs are intended to play under the same rules as human managers, and ideally their decision making would be close to a human manager, in a manner that makes sense in a football context. The only difficulty setting that makes sense, therefore, is that of choosing a stronger club, vs a weaker club.
    hugo_rune- and all others who think that to be a manager of stronger club is easy job in real life, you dont know much about football, im 100 % sure about that. Do you really thing its easier to be manager of lets say Tottenham, then Barnet? O yes, manager of Barent has more pressure on his back, lol. THats why manager of Tottenham is in hospital right now. Manager of low league club can be in hospital only after heavy eating and drinking after the game with his players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    hugo_rune- and all others who think that to be a manager of stronger club is easy job in real life, you dont know much about football, im 100 % sure about that. Do you really thing its easier to be manager of lets say Tottenham, then Barnet? O yes, manager of Barent has more pressure on his back, lol. THats why manager of Tottenham is in hospital right now. Manager of low league club can be in hospital only after heavy eating and drinking after the game with his players.
    Just ask Ancelotti, Scolari, Mourinho, Grant, Hiddink, Ranieri, AVB...So true, I want to play with my favorite team Chelsea and be challenged - I don't however as in FM, I will be much better than Mourinho apparently.

    Anyway, took a look at the other thread you suggested. Something along the lines is what I am on about - I don't really care if it is the editor or the actual game settings. If you can manage the AI's ability to pick tactics, make transfers and play matches that would be enough for me to enjoy playing FM with my favorite clubs and not have to resort to the fun of taking Darmstadt to German champions in 5 years time.

    I really hope SI pay attention to that thread and agree with Erasmus' suggestions. Was there any response from SI members as I can't be bothered to scroll through 76 pages

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    hugo_rune- and all others who think that to be a manager of stronger club is easy job in real life, you dont know much about football, im 100 % sure about that. Do you really thing its easier to be manager of lets say Tottenham, then Barnet? O yes, manager of Barent has more pressure on his back, lol. THats why manager of Tottenham is in hospital right now. Manager of low league club can be in hospital only after heavy eating and drinking after the game with his players.
    We're not talking real life, we're talking simulated FM world, there is no real pressure to get to you, your not going to lose your job if you dont win the league, nothing like reality. The point they try to make with that statement is, if you pick a team with the best players dont be suprised to do well, your both right, none of us are SAF or Morinhio, if we were we wouldnt be wasting our time with FM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grep View Post
    I haven't seen yet a valid reason to not adding difficulty levels but if any forumer or better SI could enghlithen us up I would be glad to read them and express a opinion.
    If you have 3 difficulty levels in the game, it needs to be developed and balanced for 3 levels and it has to be tested on all 3 levels. The increase of possible bugs and man-power it would use to develop and test it is something that could become a nightmare for a smaller software company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KUBI View Post
    If you have 3 difficulty levels in the game, it needs to be developed and balanced for 3 levels and it has to be tested on all 3 levels. The increase of possible bugs and man-power it would use to develop and test it is something that could become a nightmare for a smaller software company.
    Spot on

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    I am pretty sure I said it twice already. If they can't do it, can they please let us know so that I can forget playing FM from now on? I am aware this is a possible reason, but they should let us know, not just ignore such an important game-related discussion. Mind you they sold A LOT of games this year, if they spent less on stupid advertising on TV and more on game development, maybe that would be a solution. Every fan of the game knows when the game is released, we don't need to be reminded every 2 hours on Sky Sports 1.

    I just want an answer on whether it can be done and whether they will try doing it - I know it is a lot but 30 quid for a game I can't enjoy is a lot, too.

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    well your new here so you wouldnt know but they have said they will avoid the difficulty settings as much as possible, thats not to say in the future maybe, but for now they work on the game rather than spend time adding difficulty levels. It may be a case of they cant do it as much as they dont want to do it, there are so many variables in FM, i think adding difficulty levels would be very very hard and probably more trouble than they are really worth.

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    OK, so I and I don't know how many die-hard fans are not worth their effort? If after a discussion this long, they still refuse to go the right way, it says only one to me - we don't care about you. If it literary can't be done, they must say why it can't be and I haven't seen an answer like that. I can say for sure I am not buying any more FM games until this issue is addressed.

    btw, do you have a link to a thread where they have hinted they wouldn't do anything about the issue? I know they are against it but I have not seen it in writing yet, I am just curious.

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    Kriss you are not being pedantic maybe priggish; a minority does not have to be below 50% and visa versa for majority

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    Quote Originally Posted by cressers View Post
    Kriss you are not being pedantic maybe priggish; a minority does not have to be below 50% and visa versa for majority
    he was joking mate.

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    Its not like that, listen, they make the game for everyone, so called hardcore fans, so called casual fans, everyone. They cannot just focus all of their efforts to appease one group of us, thats not good business and it will not make a better FM. Die hard fans alone will not keep SI in business, they have to make sure the game appeals to as many people as possible. At the same time it is very important they listen to all groups of players, which they do, devs are posting in this thread and engaging in discussion about it all, more than you will get from most developers.

    You suggest the game has become easier than Fm04, i would suggest in the 8 years that have passed since that game you have become a lot better at FM, never mind better at football management or anything, better at understanding how FM works. There is little SI can do about that. You stated off by saying those who find the game hard are idiots or mentally ill i think was your turn of phrase, without really thinking about those new to the game, those with less experience than you, and those who perhaps dont understand football that well, you make the game too hard and you lose all of their custom very quickly. Old FM's were not that hard, they really werent, otherwise a lot of us would not have played this game so long, you dont play a game for as long as i have done if its too difficult to enjoy and to succeed at, btw i have played FM for about 15 years, and i do not find it any easier than FM12, that is an honest answer.
    Sure i will easily say there is still a lot of scope for improving FM especially long terms games, but i dont for one second think SI are ignoring people who play the game like me or only concentrating on one group of players.

    Its fantastic you are so pasionate about FM and im sure SI love the fact they have fans so vocal and engaging about their game, but if you do feel this strongly then why not try and help, so far there is nothing you have posted in this thread that would give Paul or Riz or any dev, any sort of indication as to why your finding the game too easy, you have the ability to help improve what you feel are the games weak points, again most developers dont really care or let you engage to this level, so put it to good use, upload games, upload PKM's engage in proper discussion, that is why this thread is still open, its proving useful for the best part, with good discussion, add too it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Its not like that, listen, they make the game for everyone, so called hardcore fans, so called casual fans, everyone. They cannot just focus all of their efforts to appease one group of us, thats not good business and it will not make a better FM. Die hard fans alone will not keep SI in business, they have to make sure the game appeals to as many people as possible. At the same time it is very important they listen to all groups of players, which they do, devs are posting in this thread and engaging in discussion about it all, more than you will get from most developers.

    You suggest the game has become easier than Fm04, i would suggest in the 8 years that have passed since that game you have become a lot better at FM, never mind better at football management or anything, better at understanding how FM works. There is little SI can do about that. You stated off by saying those who find the game hard are idiots or mentally ill i think was your turn of phrase, without really thinking about those new to the game, those with less experience than you, and those who perhaps dont understand football that well, you make the game too hard and you lose all of their custom very quickly. Old FM's were not that hard, they really werent, otherwise a lot of us would not have played this game so long, you dont play a game for as long as i have done if its too difficult to enjoy and to succeed at, btw i have played FM for about 15 years, and i do not find it any easier than FM12, that is an honest answer.
    Sure i will easily say there is still a lot of scope for improving FM especially long terms games, but i dont for one second think SI are ignoring people who play the game like me or only concentrating on one group of players.

    Its fantastic you are so pasionate about FM and im sure SI love the fact they have fans so vocal and engaging about their game, but if you do feel this strongly then why not try and help, so far there is nothing you have posted in this thread that would give Paul or Riz or any dev, any sort of indication as to why your finding the game too easy, you have the ability to help improve what you feel are the games weak points, again most developers dont really care or let you engage to this level, so put it to good use, upload games, upload PKM's engage in proper discussion, that is why this thread is still open, its proving useful for the best part, with good discussion, add too it.
    I actually fully agree with this statement, I remember back in the old FM days I use to struggle but I hardly payed attention to the tactics and how to approach different games but as I play it more I just get more familiar with the game, because I have still looked at other team threads and seen FM players who have had realistic results, there are a few in the Liverpool thread who missed out on European qualification and got battered by West Brom for instance.

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    Well, If anyone wants PKM's from my totally unrealistic Darmstadt season, I am happy to share them. I deleted my previous save in frustration, but I am still playing this one so I can generate the PKMs. As to why the issue appears - I have no idea. I guess if you get the tactics right once and then don't change anything, then you keep winning and as you win, the morale goes up and you win even more - no effort at all for the player. I wish I knew why it is so easy, but if the developers don't know (that is what they say, whether it's true I don't know) how am I supposed to know?

    I never said don't pay attention to the masses of new players as I do realize SI gets a lot of $$$ from them, but the only reason they buy the game that much is people that have played the game for ages tell them how great it is and how much we love it. If we start saying the opposite, do you think there will be so many new players buying the game. I just want the needs of both type of players to be addressed, if it is impossible we must be told, otherwise it isn't very fair on SI's part.

    Anyway, when I finish a couple of seasons on my current save and the situation stays the same, I will upload match reports.

    Regarding, the previous version vs 12 version - I will give you FIFA as an example again (I am a fan of PES generally but FIFA made some good improvements recently, that is why I am giving them as an example) - FIFA was simple and easy in the beginning - you add power to your shot and you score. To tackle the issue they added manual controls, goalkeeper skill, etc to add to the game difficuty for experienced players as someone that has played FIFA '98 wouldn't enjoy FIFA 12 if it was as challenging as 98. That is why it evolved into a more cahllenging game. FM is the opposite - even if, in the best case scenario you say CM 01 was as harf as FM12 (which I still think is easier), then it means SI hasn't done anything to make the game harder for experienced players who know the ins and outs of the game. So why EA can do it and SI can't (I know there is the issue of company size, but FM does generate a lot of salesrecently so they should have resources)?
    Last edited by alexyfoot; 11-11-2011 at 19:41.

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    Tbh, a comment to contradict my last post is that some guy recently posted in the Bayern thread and has claimed that he is shocked with the results himself after beating Real Madrid 5-1. When I see those sort of results I do worry to be truthful

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReggaeBwoy View Post
    Tbh, a comment to contradict my last post is that some guy recently posted in the Bayern thread and has claimed that he is shocked with the results himself after beating Real Madrid 5-1. When I see those sort of results I do worry to be truthful
    Second season with Napoli I beat Barca on CL 1/4 final 3:1 at home after 1:2 loss away. When Napoli beats Barca 3:1 in real life, please do write back!

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    Well, If anyone wants PKM's from my totally unrealistic Darmstadt season, I am happy to share them. I deleted my previous save in frustration, but I am still playing this one so I can generate the PKMs. As to why the issue appears - I have no idea. I guess if you get the tactics right once and then don't change anything, then you keep winning and as you win, the morale goes up and you win even more - no effort at all for the player. I wish I knew why it is so easy, but if the developers don't know (that is what they say, whether it's true I don't know) how am I supposed to know?

    I never said don't pay attention to the masses of new players as I do realize SI gets a lot of $$$ from them, but the only reason they buy the game that much is people that have played the game for ages tell them how great it is and how much we love it. If we start saying the opposite, do you think there will be so many new players buying the game. I just want the needs of both type of players to be addressed, if it is impossible we must be told, otherwise it isn't very fair on SI's part.

    Anyway, when I finish a couple of seasons on my current save and the situation stays the same, I will upload match reports.
    If you have PKM's and save games avaliable i would suggest uploading them to the FTP server, details in the link at the bottom of the post, and let one of the dev's know the name and why you have uploaded it. We can only speculate, they can actually look at what is going on behind the scenes and hopefully figure out why people are having this problem. There is no point in developing conspiracy stories about the reasoning behind it, lets stick to facts.

    Again you have to realise that your one side of one side of an argument, i am also a long term FMer who doesnt find the game too easy, as are others who have posted in this thread, if it was as simple as all long term FMers then SI would be able to work from that, but its not, its a select group of people, from both sides, both new and long term gamers, hence why this is proving to be such an issue for SI, it appears to be effected circumstantially rather than code specific. They will adjust things when they are happy with the changes they have made, Paul has already stated that, anything that can be done to help him with this decision can only be a good thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    Second season with Napoli I beat Barca on CL 1/4 final 3:1 at home after 1:2 loss away. When Napoli beats Barca 3:1 in real life, please do write back!
    If Basel is playing 3-3 at Old Trafford in your game, please write back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KUBI View Post
    If Basel is playing 3-3 at Old Trafford in your game, please write back.
    good one! that was one hell of a game.

    milner, thanks for the link, I will upload some details when I accumulate more matches. Hopefully, someone will bother to look at them.

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    Pretty frustrated. Just had a full season with Liverpool, not much budget, couldnt sell off some of the crap that were already bought for this season while every other club was happily buying this or that new player. Had difficulty from the start, came 6th, won the FA Cup, got fired. Completely and totally unrealistic that liverpool would fire their manager first season after not doing that badly really. Sure 6th isnt impressive at all, but FA cup win and having to suffer Carrol and Downing for instance, I think I did good. Beyond annoying.

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    I'm actually finding the game to be much more difficult than FM11. Player morale seems much more volatile (I've seen a "Spirited" player go from Superb to Poor morale over the course of a match we won where he earned an 8.2 rating and I used Calm "Have Faith" at the half) and even "Superb" morale players seem to start "playing nervously" at the drop of a hat even if you use gentle team talks when playing against smaller teams.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReggaeBwoy View Post
    I actually fully agree with this statement, I remember back in the old FM days I use to struggle but I hardly payed attention to the tactics and how to approach different games but as I play it more I just get more familiar with the game, because I have still looked at other team threads and seen FM players who have had realistic results, there are a few in the Liverpool thread who missed out on European qualification and got battered by West Brom for instance.
    I'm playing Liverpool and I'm starting to think Liverpool in particular may just be a really difficult team to manage, probably because the vast gulf between the team's reputation and the actual quality of their players. I played a couple of teams in the demo (Arsenal, Schalke, Southampton) and had none of the crazy morale issues I'm getting with Liverpool.
    Last edited by The Hand of God; 11-11-2011 at 22:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coentrao View Post
    That's what confuses me, i haven't found anything that easy so far, are you playing with just a default 442 as well or are you creating your own tactics?

    To me it's being somewhat the same as FM11.
    i'm right there with ya.

    i think the reason there isn't much discussion about it being normal is because the vast majority of us are just playing without having an issue. just like my post and a few others showing normal results and being completely ignored by people. *shrug*

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    the point isnt about these one off results that ppl are mentioning,YES,they do happen in real life.....the point is the game is too easy by far by doing little or nothing at all even with the smaller clubs.
    ive been playing these games since the original on the amiga many years ago as well as every other football manager type game there has been,and do you know back then when i was much younger the 1st test i would do was to do absolutely nothing with the team,tactics etc and press continue for the first few weeks.my theory back then was if i won most of my matches the game would be binned,and obviously if i kept losing,which you should do by rights,its a game worth playing.may of been childish back then but you know what?? its a valid theory for me in this years FM12....and although i havent binned it as such,it has been uninstalled and FM11 put back on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    hugo_rune- and all others who think that to be a manager of stronger club is easy job in real life, you dont know much about football, im 100 % sure about that. Do you really thing its easier to be manager of lets say Tottenham, then Barnet? O yes, manager of Barent has more pressure on his back, lol. THats why manager of Tottenham is in hospital right now. Manager of low league club can be in hospital only after heavy eating and drinking after the game with his players.
    Did I say it was, or should be, easier to manage those teams in real life? ;)

    My point is that difficulty should be based on what you want to achieve, and how easy it will be for the club you choose to get those results. Want an easy game, pick Manchester United and try to win the Premier League. Want a hard game, pick Sunderland and try to win the Champions League. Want a really hard game, pick Droylsden and try to get to the top of the English football pyramid. All of these options can - and should - be made harder, but not by putting artificial modifiers on the AI's performance vs human performance, but by removing exploits, and enabling the AI to make decisions that lead to more relative success - which is the sort of thing they're working on, and I'm really thrilled to see the response by SI on these issues, they are all incremental changes but hopefully they will combine to make the experience more challenging.
    Last edited by hugo_rune; 12-11-2011 at 08:08. Reason: there wasn't really a point, I added one :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by KUBI View Post
    If you have 3 difficulty levels in the game, it needs to be developed and balanced for 3 levels and it has to be tested on all 3 levels. The increase of possible bugs and man-power it would use to develop and test it is something that could become a nightmare for a smaller software company.
    This is not a valid reason because each game in the market works like that.

    So, do not add gear changing in cars because otherwise they have to be tested in 1st gear, 2nd gear, reverse....

    To me, it is a non sense statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grep View Post
    This is not a valid reason because each game in the market works like that.

    So, do not add gear changing in cars because otherwise they have to be tested in 1st gear, 2nd gear, reverse....

    To me, it is a non sense statement.

    yup..totally agree.i think the best kind of difficulty level will be a moddable ini/editor file like Erimus has said previously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    Second season with Napoli I beat Barca on CL 1/4 final 3:1 at home after 1:2 loss away. When Napoli beats Barca 3:1 in real life, please do write back!
    You mean you beat them 4-3 on aggregate? Napoli are a very good side. Barca are the worlds best side. The beauty of football is that these results do happen. Barca re the best but they do lose. IMO they have a slightly (only slightly) inflated reputation in England because Man Utd played the same stupid open 442 against them in 2 consecutive CL finals and got spanked.

    To add my two pennies I am finding fm12 fairly tough but engaging, currently top of the champ with Norwich after 2 seasons in mid table with Donny. I hate the idea of difficulty levels because I feel any discussion would have to involve saying what level you are on, not to mention bugs and stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by grep View Post
    This is not a valid reason because each game in the market works like that.

    So, do not add gear changing in cars because otherwise they have to be tested in 1st gear, 2nd gear, reverse....

    To me, it is a non sense statement.
    Odd analogy, because they do get thoroughly tested in all gears. Also car testing is a life and death situation so it is necessary, this is one of the many reasons why cars cost lots of money.

    There would undoubtably be loads of knock on effects no matter how you adjusted ' difficulty'

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    the vast majority of games have difficulty levels so why not any FM games...and dont be giving me its more complex than other games blah blah blah!!!
    i dont see the problem why people would have a problem with it....if you think the difficulty now is ok...well just select the default/normal difficulty....simple.

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    I keep on not seeing while roughly 95-100% of world games have difficulty levels while FM seems to treat them as Kryptonite.

    Is there a radioactive contamination involved ?

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    I'm not worried about one off results - they can happen.

    It's unnatural levels of consistency that we need to focus on. The Palermo save on the FTP would be useful.....

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    I won the serie A with Palermo in the first season at FM11 too, soo if that's the only case, then it's nothing new. We all know that with an above average squad, and good tactics, you can win the league, except from Spain where it should take a little while longer since Barcelona tend to "not lose" points

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    Quote Originally Posted by grep View Post
    I keep on not seeing while roughly 95-100% of world games have difficulty levels while FM seems to treat them as Kryptonite.

    Is there a radioactive contamination involved ?

    lol..funny
    maybe its too much for their programmers to achieve :P....joke!

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    I think the main problems are the moral levels (and keep high), too many goals on human team, no need to change the tactics, you win easily without change a tactic.. i think this is quite obvious

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    SI can't make AI smart enough to provide a challenge for the typical experienced player
    Name one game dev that has produced a challenging AI opponent without resorting to resource bias

    you can't - noone can

    because AI is damn hard to write; those chess programs know every single last possibility of every move

    but in FM or TW or Civ or Gal Civ or SotS or w/e that's impossible

    So yeah, SI can't write challenging AI - that's not peculiar to 12, that's been the case for years

    My save in 11 with saints, when we eventually made it into the prem I saw players I'd cast off in the championship years before (like elliot grandin) in the first teams of Tottenham, Everton and Villa. The standard of prem teams was barely higher than championship, with only Arsenal and City having any real quality we made the Euro Cup in our second season and the CL in the thrird, while Chelsea tried to keep their despicable team together with a couple of decent players and Man U signed players I would have avoided for tens of millions - but still remained in CL spots for years, because the league was crap

    What I'm saying is that signing the wrong players and playing them the wrong way is nothing new, and it won't be fixed in the forseeable

    So the only way for players like you to have a challenging game is to play against resource favored AI - which you can do now by opening up the editor and giving every other team in the world ten times their annual income every year - if you're so desperate for difficulty levels, go now and do this and you'll see plain as day why nobody wants the damn things, because this is how they always turn out in the end

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuddBudda View Post
    Name one game dev that has produced a challenging AI opponent without resorting to resource bias

    you can't - noone can

    because AI is damn hard to write; those chess programs know every single last possibility of every move

    but in FM or TW or Civ or Gal Civ or SotS or w/e that's impossible

    So yeah, SI can't write challenging AI - that's not peculiar to 12, that's been the case for years

    My save in 11 with saints, when we eventually made it into the prem I saw players I'd cast off in the championship years before (like elliot grandin) in the first teams of Tottenham, Everton and Villa. The standard of prem teams was barely higher than championship, with only Arsenal and City having any real quality we made the Euro Cup in our second season and the CL in the thrird, while Chelsea tried to keep their despicable team together with a couple of decent players and Man U signed players I would have avoided for tens of millions - but still remained in CL spots for years, because the league was crap

    What I'm saying is that signing the wrong players and playing them the wrong way is nothing new, and it won't be fixed in the forseeable

    So the only way for players like you to have a challenging game is to play against resource favored AI - which you can do now by opening up the editor and giving every other team in the world ten times their annual income every year - if you're so desperate for difficulty levels, go now and do this and you'll see plain as day why nobody wants the damn things, because this is how they always turn out in the end
    So in order to enjoy FM from now on, I have to make all club finances totally unrealistic. What fun is that? I still haven't seen anything from SI saying" we can't do it", I keep seeing" we don't want to do it". There is a big difference.

    Just finished my first season with darmstadt (won the league using "spacebar" tactics of not doing anything on my 31 gameday - 81 pts from 31 games....then decided to go on holiday so that I don't waste my time - my assistant did "great" - 5 points from 7 games!). So, going on holiday provides realistic results for the worst team in the league, but if it is me pressing the spacebar then I keep winning...just great.

    Paul - if it was isolated case, we wouldn't have 1000 posts in 2-3 weeks after game release. Why do you keep denying an obvious problem. You can have my season 1 save with Darmstadt, if someone is willing to look at it I will upload it. I'd love to hear a reasonable explanation of why I became a champion without doing anything with 1 of the relegation candidates

    Btw, I can't think of many games with difficulty settings that have to resort to resource control to make the game harder...I'd give you a few examples like Medieval Total War, Need For Speed Shift, CoD MW, FIFA12 - all different type of games, where if you play on hard the AI seems smarter than you and you tend to find the game challenging. None of them use resource control to adjust difficulty, it is simply a change in AI. As far as I am aware SI is the only one to refuse doing so.
    Last edited by alexyfoot; 12-11-2011 at 10:44.

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    I'm not denying or confirming anything I'm simply trying to investigate.

    Pls upload the save to our FTP and I will look at it. If you have any save from earlier in the season pls upload that too :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    Btw, I can't think of many games with difficulty settings that have to resort to resource control to make the game harder...I'd give you a few examples like Medieval Total War, Need For Speed Shift, CoD MW, FIFA12 - all different type of games, where if you play on hard the AI seems smarter than you and you tend to find the game challenging. None of them use resource control to adjust difficulty, it is simply a change in AI. As far as I am aware SI is the only one to refuse doing so.
    All flavours of Total War use both resource modifications and rule modifications (morale adjustments), along with changes to AI aggression. The AI is no smarter at 'very hard' than it is at 'very easy'. I've never played the other games as I'm a strategy gamer, not an action gamer.

    One thing you - and others - don't seem to understand is that Football Manager isn't just a game, it's a simulation. A good simulation will never have difficulty levels, particularly where you are competing against other entities in the simulation, in this case, clubs.

    I might add, the biggest issue with "fixing" the AI clubs by giving them bonus resources (and maybe other advantages, such as a percentage attribute boosts) - which is what you guys are asking for by asking for difficulty levels, as that is the only way that difficulty levels ever work in practice - is that it papers over other issues in the game, such as exploits and AI poor decision making. Those latter issues are what should be fixed, as much as possible, and then the difficulty issue looks after itself.
    Last edited by hugo_rune; 12-11-2011 at 10:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hugo_rune View Post
    All flavours of Total War use both resource modifications and rule modifications (morale adjustments), along with changes to AI aggression. The AI is no smarter at 'very hard' than it is at 'very easy'. I've never played the other games as I'm a strategy gamer, not an action gamer.

    One thing you - and others - don't seem to understand is that Football Manager isn't just a game, it's a simulation. A good simulation will never have difficulty levels, particularly where you are competing against other entities in the simulation, in this case, clubs.

    I might add, the biggest issue with "fixing" the AI clubs by giving them bonus resources (and maybe other advantages, such as a percentage attribute boosts) - which is what you guys are asking for by asking for difficulty levels, as that is the only way that difficulty levels ever work in practice - is that it papers over other issues in the game, such as exploits and AI poor decision making. Those latter issues are what should be fixed, as much as possible, and then the difficulty issue looks after itself.
    I totally agree AI decision making is the main issue, but if SI don't want to make the game too hard by fixing this so that newbies can be comfortable, too, then having different difficulty setting is the only way around it in my opinion. But if the AI is simply not good enough (which I think is the problem), then that is where SI should start working from in fixing the problem - adding difficulty level would be their decision in regards to making the game as easy as it is now for newbies, but ... with the current standard of AI, the game is unplayable for me and plenty of other fans (I have 120 hours on the current version and I am already sick of it).

    Paul, I am uploading the file called Darmstadt.fm (Darmstadt_TooEasy.fm is corrupt, please delete it) ... I will go on just to test how it goes in Second Division. If the game continues to do crazy stuff like my Season 1, I will upload some more later.
    Last edited by alexyfoot; 12-11-2011 at 11:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gundo View Post
    My first two saves on FM12 have resulted in me being sacked both times, I'm finding it quite difficult so far.
    I'll join that club. I haven't been sacked but that's because I've joined clubs when they're already in the mire and the previous manager has gotten the boot. I've had two relegations though. I just can't get any form.

    I sympathise with the people that are saying the game is tooe asy though. I have stated this for both FM10 and FM11, where I found myself on lengthy runs without putting any effort in. I was expecting the same to be true for FM12 but it hasn't so far come to pass. I will say that I found the difficulty dropped most in the second season in past experience, so perhaps I'lls ee some lengthy runs in my second season as Kettering manager, especially now I find myself in either the Blue Square North or the South.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    I have 120 hours on the current version and I am already sick of it
    damn, at less than half a penny per minute of play you've really been ripped off

    So yeah, ofc you find FM easy - you play it too much
    I had this game 'War on Terror' at uni and won every game, because I was the only guy who played it regularily - I'd take it to different groups once a month, so by the end of the year I'd played it 20 times and the most anyone else had played it was thrice - guess what, I found it boring after that because I always won and noone else knew what they were doing

    My advice? Buy SotS ][ and Gal Civ II and don't come back to FM for five years so that the game you find is nothing like the game you know, otherwise you're never gonna find it challenging again - because you are a human being with an incredible brain designed to adapt and respond and out-wit it's environment and there's no way SI or anyone can move things faster than you can keep up

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuddBudda View Post
    damn, at less than half a penny per minute of play you've really been ripped off

    So yeah, ofc you find FM easy - you play it too much
    I had this game 'War on Terror' at uni and won every game, because I was the only guy who played it regularily - I'd take it to different groups once a month, so by the end of the year I'd played it 20 times and the most anyone else had played it was thrice - guess what, I found it boring after that because I always won and noone else knew what they were doing

    My advice? Buy SotS ][ and Gal Civ II and don't come back to FM for five years so that the game you find is nothing like the game you know, otherwise you're never gonna find it challenging again - because you are a human being with an incredible brain designed to adapt and respond and out-wit it's environment and there's no way SI or anyone can move things faster than you can keep up
    Well if I wanted to do that, I'd not be writing here...I want to enjoy FM, that is why I am hoping they bother to work on the AI more than they work on say, media interaction. Don't get me wrong, I am more than happy with most recent game improvements, but SI have completely forgotten AI improvements, which is by far the most important thing for a simulation game.

    It seems everyone around here thinks SI simply can't improve the AI. I really struggle to believe that - I am sure if they put effort in it, the AI can be improved significantly.

    In regards to your suggestion - I play Cities XL, too, it is far more challenging simulation for example so it compensates for FM when I play both on the same day

    If I actually enjoyed these 120 hrs, I wouldn't feel ripped off...trouble is 50% of that was frustration you know...

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    Quote Originally Posted by anagain View Post
    I sympathise with the people that are saying the game is tooe asy though. I have stated this for both FM10 and FM11, where I found myself on lengthy runs without putting any effort in. I was expecting the same to be true for FM12 but it hasn't so far come to pass. I will say that I found the difficulty dropped most in the second season in past experience, so perhaps I'lls ee some lengthy runs in my second season as Kettering manager, especially now I find myself in either the Blue Square North or the South.
    I think it takes me a season or two to actually get the kind of players who suit what I'm trying to do tactically and strategically. Once that happens, I will usually overachieve, albeit in a modest fashion. The AI on the other hand can really screw itself up. In my current save in Norway, I had a rival club with money (something that I don't have...yet) go after my star striker and my chairman made the decision to sell on my behalf, something I wasn't happy about but understood in the circumstances. But ten games in to the season, they were bottom of the table, and the striker hadn't got a game. Turns out he was a key player on great money - and not registered for the squad, presumably because they couldn't do so due to restrictions. How prevalent this is, I'm not really sure, but it's something that they really need to fix. I'm not entirely sure whether it's an issue with Norwegian leagues or a more general one, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuddBudda View Post
    damn, at less than half a penny per minute of play you've really been ripped off

    So yeah, ofc you find FM easy - you play it too much
    I had this game 'War on Terror' at uni and won every game, because I was the only guy who played it regularily - I'd take it to different groups once a month, so by the end of the year I'd played it 20 times and the most anyone else had played it was thrice - guess what, I found it boring after that because I always won and noone else knew what they were doing

    My advice? Buy SotS ][ and Gal Civ II and don't come back to FM for five years so that the game you find is nothing like the game you know, otherwise you're never gonna find it challenging again - because you are a human being with an incredible brain designed to adapt and respond and out-wit it's environment and there's no way SI or anyone can move things faster than you can keep up
    What you say does make sense, of course, but I don't think that any realisation that the game is proving too easy comes at 120 hours. It's more that it's by that stage that it's got old. Like I've said in two posts now (that have incidentally been glossed over - whether that's because they say the game isn't easy or not is anyones guess - devil's advocate there) I'm not finding the game easy this time out. I'm finding it damn hard. I did find it easy in the last two editions of FM though. I played about 400 hours (I leave the game running while I'm doing things a lot so that's not a true figure) in each and by that time I'd had enough of not having to put any effort in. Of course there were moments before that where I wanted to enjoy the game so I carried on.

    Maybe, some might say, I just cracked that winning formula, but I don't think I did anything special.

    I suppose I'm not overly qualified to put forth my view in this thread because I'm not suffering the same problems, but I can sympathise with people's predicament.

    SI are taking it seriously, as best as they can, so I also think there is a place for people that may doubt the autheticity of claims to sit back and say 'okay explain yourself', and accept that rather than argue.

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    There is one other thing I wanted to add before I disappear. I think games in general have gotten easier, and not just FM. One of the more common arguments is that we are just better than computers and we can analyse and improve more readily than they can. I'm sure we also have much more ability to recall what works particularly well with a given situation, where as a computer will work within a set of guidelines, or code, to make its choices. That means we will step outside guidelines that the computer can not.

    People say that SI should just improve AI, but it's often not as simple as that. If AI was vastly improvable then there'd be a lot more games out there that are hard to crack.

    I get some lengthy enjoyment from games such as Europa Universalis 2 and Tropico 4, and at times I struggle to get going, but there always comes a point when I'm finding I'm not really stretched.

    They do say practice makes perfect.

    I'm not a Computer Sciences graduate, or anything like it, by the way. But I do play a lot of games. Too many, some might say.

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    This is going to be skewed towards the game being too easy as the average user here is not the average buyer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anagain View Post
    I think games in general have gotten easier, and not just FM...

    They do say practice makes perfect...

    But I do play a lot of games. Too many, some might say.
    That's the big problem. Human brains are very good at learning, far far better than the most advanced AI. Spend a lot of hours playing a game, or a type of game and you improve a lot. AI stays as it was written.

    There's a big article in today's 'Times' magazine about World of Warcraft: probably the game which has been played for what used to be called man hours but should probably be called 'person hours' today than any other. That keeps the player's interest by moving them from area to area: once you've mastered one environment there's no point staying there and you're forced into a different one with different animations to fight and different resources to collect. But essentially you're still doing the same thing whether you're level one or eighty: killing things by pressing the F keys in the right order and by the time you reach a basic level of competence you'll have the hotkeys set up for how you play.

    I suppose the reason WoW manages to retain players for so long is the collaborative aspect. I think any single player game has a finite amount of hours before it's exhausted.

    The relevance of that to FM is I don't think it's realistic to expect to play Chelsea for hundreds of hours and still find it difficult. You reach a point where as a human player where you say either, "I've finished" or you make life more difficult for yourself and instead of Chelsea pick Kidderminster Harriers and try to make them champions of Europe . And once you've made Kidderminster Harriers Champion's League winners it really is time to find another hobby.
    Last edited by Graham206; 12-11-2011 at 12:41.

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    Selling players is still frustrating. Trying to get rid of Carroll in Liverpool, he costs 35mill, but even when I lower it to 5mill only small clubs respond saying they cant afford his wages. Seriously this isnt even realistic at best.

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    I've sold many in-form players or "actually good" players for quite a lot of money, many times. Carrol is just overrated, and clubs thankfully understand that he is overrated. Looking at his performances after he left Newcastle, I wouldn't pay more than 5 million and of course no big club will want him after he failed misearbly at Liverpool (the level of failure is in correlation with the amount of money paid imho). And he just isn't goodd or consistent enough for big teams. He is earning pretty high right now and of course he will want to maintain that amount of wages at the very least, if he shall sign for a smaller club so I think the game is totally realistic about selling players. You probably aren't even playing him or he's just playing with an average rating of 7 or sth..

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    I agree with some posters. I think we are adapting and learning the game far faster than the AI can. Our brain is truly incredible. We have played FM for almost a decade, and we know the game inside out. So we can't blame the AI though i'm sure SI will continue improving it, as with all other games' AI developers. But no way can a AI ever defeat a human brain. Especially when we've been playing the game for more than 10 over years, with little improvements to the AI.

    So enjoy the game by self-imposing restrictions.

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    I dont think comparing whatever dislike you have for the player or the team in the real league should impact what happens in the game. There have been many many players over the years who other teams have bought from clubs who didnt do well, and they definitely cost more then 5million. You dont need the big teams to buy the players. There are plenty more who would happily go for someone of Carrols style of player as they have in the past, West Ham, Wigan, etc. In my game noone is even humouring the idea of it, so his wages arent coming into the conversation. I'm also trying to sell him in July. He hasnt played a game for me at all, so his performance level is also not in the discussion.

    Fact is there is zero reason why I shouldnt be able to sell him for 5million. None.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanNUFC View Post
    he was joking mate.
    you are actually an idiot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlahka View Post
    I dont think comparing whatever dislike you have for the player or the team in the real league should impact what happens in the game. There have been many many players over the years who other teams have bought from clubs who didnt do well, and they definitely cost more then 5million. You dont need the big teams to buy the players. There are plenty more who would happily go for someone of Carrols style of player as they have in the past, West Ham, Wigan, etc. In my game noone is even humouring the idea of it, so his wages arent coming into the conversation. I'm also trying to sell him in July. He hasnt played a game for me at all, so his performance level is also not in the discussion.

    Fact is there is zero reason why I shouldnt be able to sell him for 5million. None.
    Mate, I had Diego at Wolfsburg with 100k/week salaray. Tried to sell him for 0 and couldn't - nobody wants overpaid rubbish players. What you don't understand is that someone not only has to buy the player, but also pay his wages. If he is on a wage higher than his ability, you won't be able to sell him. It is the same in real life, happens all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    Mate, I had Diego at Wolfsburg with 100k/week salaray. Tried to sell him for 0 and couldn't - nobody wants overpaid rubbish players. What you don't understand is that someone not only has to buy the player, but also pay his wages. If he is on a wage higher than his ability, you won't be able to sell him. It is the same in real life, happens all the time.
    This is true! People complain that is hard to self players, but you analyse what player you're trying to sell! And the wage its very important.
    For example, you see AI teams that cant sell players. For example, Man City and Chelsea have lots of players in the reserve team (in my save game) that they cant sell because they have such a huge wage.
    It's normal... and very real

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexyfoot View Post
    Mate, I had Diego at Wolfsburg with 100k/week salaray. Tried to sell him for 0 and couldn't - nobody wants overpaid rubbish players. What you don't understand is that someone not only has to buy the player, but also pay his wages. If he is on a wage higher than his ability, you won't be able to sell him. It is the same in real life, happens all the time.
    Thats the thing, he's only on 70k, a young english player, did good previous season, plenty of teams should be wanting him for 5million. If it was his wages that was the problem then I'd be getting that feedback. All I'm seeing is asking price is too high, nothing else. And why cant teams bid for players and offer lower wages? I see that happening often with other players I want to get rid of. Deal falls through because player doesnt want to accept lower wages. Some players do accept a pay cut. But again, logically if Carrol was being offered to teams last season for $5mill, I'm pretty sure a few would of snapped him up. At the very least newcastle would be coming in for him like Tottenham did when they sold Keane to Liverpool for 18mill or whatever, then bought him back the following year at a cut price.

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    Could AI Match Preperation be the cause of easy games in FM12?

    Here's a screenshot of Man Utd's match prepartion screen on FMRTE after 38 league games on FM12 (Man Utd are an AI club).





    Look how terrible their tactical familiarity is on their primary formation. Look how hardly any familiarity has been trained in their secondary and tertiary tactics!

    Now compare this to Man Utd after a 38 league game season on FM11 I just ran...








    On the FM11 game all three tactics have been trained to the standard you would expect them to be after 38 games!


    I checked other teams using FMRTE on FM12 too. After the first season some have fully trained their primary tactic as expected, but have no training on their secondary and tertiary tactics. Most AI teams are as bad as Man Utd's primary tactic!

    On FM11 THIS IS NOT THE CASE. Most AI teams are fully trained on ALL three tactics by the 38 game mark.

    Unless FMRTE for FM12 has a bugged Tactical screen and is displaying false data, could this be the cause of the easy games some people are having in FM12?

    I've just watched the last match of a 46 game season against an AI team whose tactical training is very poor compared to my maxed out ones, infact they only had 1 tactic trained at all - no backups. They were 1-10 favorites on to beat me! They played garbage, they didn't have a clue. I won 4-1 at their place without breaking sweat. I took a look at thier tactical attributes after the match on FMRTE and saw they were pathetic compared to my fully trained tactics.






    Is this why they were a push over, like 90% of the other AI teams I've played in six or seven FM12 saves I've tried so far?


    Please look at this SI and comment, thanks.

  97. #997
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    Spotters badge for that one Erimus! If that is correct that's one huge mess this game is in

  98. #998
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    Seems easier than the previous versions to me. Started with Gladbach, am 2nd in January with one defeat, best defense in the league and I've only signed a few backups. I'm hooked since 08, can't say I've been exceptional with crap teams before (not too shabby either), so a 12-3-0 league start in this save really is out of the ordinary

    For what it's worth - I put a moderate amount of time into setting up tactics.

  99. #999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pipo2525 View Post
    Spotters badge for that one Erimus! If that is correct that's one huge mess this game is in
    If it is THE problem, I'm going to kick myself since its something I should have checked 2 weeks ago before messing about with editing TA's and Morale. The (possible) answer was right there in my face all along when watching matches, I couldn't understand why AI teams were so poor against me on the pitch. This could explain it *facepalm*

  100. #1000
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    Here's Barcelona, the best AI team in the whole game.




    Just about fully trained their primary tactic by the end of season 1, but haven't even bothered with tactic #2 or #3 by the looks of it. I wonder how poor tactically they were at the beginning of the season, or even the half way point.

    No wonder people are knocking them out of the CL with teams like Napoli and Rangers.

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