View Poll Results: How are you finding the difficulty on FM2012?

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  • The game is too easy.

    531 30.29%
  • The difficulty is about right.

    1,081 61.67%
  • The game is too hard.

    141 8.04%
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Thread: FM2012 difficulty.

  1. #701
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    Thought I would add my bit to this thread, I've not read every page so forgive me if I repeat things.

    I'm currently in my 4th season with Man United and I've experienced two sides to this coin. In my first season the only game I lost ALL season was the FA cup final to Chelsea, winning European cup & Carling cup at a canter going unbeaten for 59 games untill playing Chelseas in the final. I didn't change tactics or do press conferences just team talks & shouts. Btw I started off with Sunday league experience.

    Second season I finished 3rd in the league losing 6games, won the FA cup & lost in the final of the Champions League.

    Third season I done the treble, easily winning the league & regulary thrashing teams 4 & 5 nil.

    Obviously things are not right an hopefully the next update will balance things out a bit.

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    So no, it's not realistic now, but I think not using player search is more unrealistic than using it - because scouts do "search a database" for players and we can make roughly accurate representations of players and translate those into numerical values.
    I agree with that. If you want to make your game harder, it's an option not to use player search at all. But it does not add realism, it's the contrary, it's a unrealistic manager behaviour, as a good manager will use any kind of information he can get.
    Last edited by KUBI; 09-11-2011 at 19:53.

  3. #703
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    Probably you're right and probably every manager in the world has a pool of scouts who can provide him a list of 10,000+ (let's say 20,000+) player names with full data in about a second.

    Damn, I'm very unlucky to working in my country, where professional sports organizations are so dumb.

  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fede_Gu View Post
    Probably you're right and probably every manager in the world has a pool of scouts who can provides him a list of 10,000+ (let's say 20,000+) player names with full data in about a second.

    Damn, I'm very unlucky to working in my country, where professional sports organizations are so dumb.
    I always use "exclude unrealistic targets". In my own save there are just about 700 realistic transfer targets, which looks okay for me.

  5. #705
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    Yes, and that gives you ALL the players. Filter it with their abilities and remove unworthy players and you'll have a shortlist of 200-300 players which is quite realistic imo

    Not realistic enough? filter it for high potential players under 21 and it'll give you 20-30 players probably and that, I think, is realistic for many clubs. Even too little for the likes of Arsenal and Man Utd
    Last edited by egesagin; 09-11-2011 at 20:12.

  6. #706
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    Managers in the Bayern thread have claimed that they feel this game is too easy compared to last years one, need to see for myself now

  7. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual View Post
    People who are fine with the game as it is don't get the point of football and FM likewise. Nothing is "for sure" in football and it shouldn't be in FM. While reading different FM forums I noticed that the most common saying of ones who advocate and defend the game is "well what do you expect if you take Arsenal, Liverpool, Barca...Take WBA or Nancy or whatever". That argument (if you can call it that) is extremly dumb, and nobody should tell nobody which team to take. Hell, I don't wanna take Lecce, I don't like the team. I support Napoli and I want to play the challenge that suits Napoli- first few seasons fight for CL, then maybe win a title, but I don't want nothing to be guaranteed as nothing is guaranteed in real life football, no matter how much money you have, no matter how good your side is. In the past I think FM got that. You wouldn't be guaranteed the title even if you had the best players with the shiniest atributes, all 19s and 20' didn't matter because anything could happen, and there are zillion factors that decide who is going to be a champion.

    Everybody wants to win, but there is no point in winning if you don't earn it, if you just click continue and win. I'm not happy, because I feel my input in this game, me changing the tactics and buying the players means nothing!
    And to make things worse, it's not the case that you can't play farely with big clubs, it's the case with all of them as Barnett screenshots showed...
    well said- I agree.

    I think it is the feeling of pretty much whatever you do, you'll ending up 'winning' anyway that bothers me i.e. how much do we influence/have an impact on the game? I could be wrong, but I'm sure FM used to be tougher, sure even frustrating, but that for me was the point- it was the challenge, mixed with excitement that you might just win something (or even close) that has kept me returning. Going by this poll, that is around one third of people who clealry feels the same as us.

  8. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fede_Gu View Post
    Probably you're right and probably every manager in the world has a pool of scouts who can provide him a list of 10,000+ (let's say 20,000+) player names with full data in about a second.

    Damn, I'm very unlucky to working in my country, where professional sports organizations are so dumb.
    "Time" in-game doesn't mean "time" in reality, though. A second in Football Manager land can mean anything in reality.

    The reality is that this sort of list will take days to produce and perhaps that is another flaw of the Player Search. On the other hand, that's just convenience and the game doesn't understand what goes on behind the scenes in reality - i.e. scouts will likely be proactive and have done most of the work already, so they will just be putting the finishing touches on scouting reports depending on what the manager wants.

  9. #709
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    Only thing I'm finding difficult is getting my players to bloody mark their man and bloody stick with him grrrr

    I could put my chair through the screen when I see them letting players just run by them lol

  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    Yes, and that gives you ALL the players. Filter it with their abilities and remove unworthy players and you'll have a shortlist of 200-300 players which is quite realistic imo

    Not realistic enough? filter it for high potential players under 21 and it'll give you 20-30 players probably and that, I think, is realistic for many clubs. Even too little for the likes of Arsenal and Man Utd
    ???
    Probably we're not on the same page.
    What does it means?
    For sure if you use the filters you have realistic results but in order to use the filters you must have the base knowledge! (20,000+ players)

    We're saying the same thing: current scouting system is not perfect (for me it's quite not realistic).
    I think that a third level italian team can't have in 'Player Search' all players from Italy, as it is in game, because it's not realistic.

    For me using 'Player Search' at low level (League One in England, Prima Division in Italy, 3. Liga in Germany and so on) with this scouting system can help your life too much.
    At higher level it's different but, one more time, it's absolutely not real that if I manage Man City and I have a scout with good Italy knowledge I can see a third level italian player with full data.
    What I'm saying is that if you have a good scouting network in game you can't fail. In real life you can.

    Anyway it is the best thread in FM history, no flames and propositive approach. It's disappointing no one from SI is here.

    (My refusal to use 'Player Search' is related to my use of bars instead of numbers for players attributes!)

  11. #711
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    Well yes, the scouting knowledge system is totally unrealistic. I think the default player search screen should give you the most famous players in that nation, since you'll of course know many players from your nation. But for the hidden gems and foreigners, your list should fill as your scout finds players. So you shouldn't have ALL the players from a nation, even if your scouting knowledge is full. I agree with you on that part

  12. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    Well yes, the scouting knowledge system is totally unrealistic. I think the default player search screen should give you the most famous players in that nation, since you'll of course know many players from your nation. But for the hidden gems and foreigners, your list should fill as your scout finds players. So you shouldn't have ALL the players from a nation, even if your scouting knowledge is full. I agree with you on that part
    Bingo! That is the point!

  13. #713
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    Maybe it's all about how scouts can unveil attributes? I think it would be more realistic to hide all mental stats, as you need to scout a unknown player for a long period to know his mentality, while other attributes are more obvious.

  14. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    Well yes, the scouting knowledge system is totally unrealistic. I think the default player search screen should give you the most famous players in that nation, since you'll of course know many players from your nation. But for the hidden gems and foreigners, your list should fill as your scout finds players. So you shouldn't have ALL the players from a nation, even if your scouting knowledge is full. I agree with you on that part
    Even with full knowledge player search does not list all players from a nation.

  15. #715
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    Well they sure list an unrealistic amount of players..

  16. #716
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    Probably, but the game gives you the filters. I don't see why we should not use it, as it makes the game experience more realistic.

  17. #717
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    Quote Originally Posted by digsy11 View Post
    Thought I would add my bit to this thread, I've not read every page so forgive me if I repeat things.

    I'm currently in my 4th season with Man United and I've experienced two sides to this coin. In my first season the only game I lost ALL season was the FA cup final to Chelsea, winning European cup & Carling cup at a canter going unbeaten for 59 games untill playing Chelseas in the final. I didn't change tactics or do press conferences just team talks & shouts. Btw I started off with Sunday league experience.

    Second season I finished 3rd in the league losing 6games, won the FA cup & lost in the final of the Champions League.

    Third season I done the treble, easily winning the league & regulary thrashing teams 4 & 5 nil.

    Obviously things are not right an hopefully the next update will balance things out a bit.

    You should consider that you succeeded on FM2012, and there for you can call it easy,when you win the title 1st season against al odds, just like Blackburn once did in real life.

    or winning trebles with top clubs year after year

    though the fact that you didn't change tactics is an issue unless you used save/load or vacances

  18. #718
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    1000+ votes thats good number. we can see that its just not couple of us who think game is not balanced. its 35 % of people who think the same, Many great posts in this thread and few others. it was interesting to read debate about scouting. Good stuff.

    What i really dont understand is why we dont get feedback from SI on this thread. I noticed just few short comments of PaulC and thats it. I mean i hear all the time that SI have many employees, etc. Where are they and why they dont give their view on lots of problems game obv. have. We are here to help and we are working for free. Generally i dont see comments from SI squad or moderators Ackter, Sciag... Pretty weird for thread of 700+ comments and 15k+ views.

    I also read other good threads, but they are not there either. Its not nice, really isnt. Because they have much more info then we have and they in the end made this game.

    P.s. AcidBurn and Kriss are good moderators they talk with us. I must mention that.
    Last edited by Matej; 09-11-2011 at 21:45.

  19. #719
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    I think that financially it's somewhat harder on the lower leagues specially if you play with LLM'esque rules, the AI teams just keep having large budgets regardless of getting drown in debt and even promoted teams got a larger wage budget than myself, there also seems to exist a reputation bug where your reputation keeps dropping unless you achieve promotion.

    And i'm actually thinking of starting using player search again because of the scouting glitch i have to rely mostly on transfer rumours which i don't find it enough and tedious.

  20. #720
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    I'm looking at all the saves an pkms I have been sent and where an area of the game can be tweaked without unbalancing things for the majority they will be.

    As I stated earlier, I want to reduce shelf life of extremes of morale and see if that helps, as well as make team talks a bit harder the lower the managers' reputation in relation to his players. At this stage I honestly haven't found much more to go on at least in terms of the match engine.

    I dont have a timeline for this at present as its vital we test it properly given we believe the vast majority of users are very happy with this release.

  21. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    I'm looking at all the saves an pkms I have been sent and where an area of the game can be tweaked without unbalancing things for the majority they will be.

    As I stated earlier, I want to reduce shelf life of extremes of morale and see if that helps, as well as make team talks a bit harder the lower the managers' reputation in relation to his players. At this stage I honestly haven't found much more to go on at least in terms of the match engine.

    I dont have a timeline for this at present as its vital we test it properly given we believe the vast majority of users are very happy with this release.
    That's great Paul. Do you think I'm on the right lines here:

    If the fix simply makes high morale less easy to achieve and less long-lasting, I don't think that will be a huge improvement to team-talks because 'assertive/option #2 will still be the 'right' choice globally whatever the manager's reputation. For the team-talks to be more effective, they need to be more geared to different personality types so that there is more variety or responses; not in an arbitrary way but in ways that if the manager pays attention, can work out the right thing to say to each player in a given situation.

  22. #722
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    Paul, could you possibly tell us why SI doesn't share their opinions on our ideas about the scouting system or implementation of tactical understanding where a player can't fully understand a complex tactic fully, tehrefore preventing you to dominate with lower class teams? I mean I've seen some really good ideas around here, I've offered some too and all our aim is to make the game more realistic. same as you guys. So I think at least if we got some feedback on that, it would be great. I know you guys have much to do but we all work for the same cause here

  23. #723
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    I guess that they are gathering ideas and suggestions from the wishlist thread.

  24. #724
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    Well this is a major thread so they should get them, plus there was a suggestions forum in the summer I guess, but they didn't provide feedback. A "we think this might be useful, we'll look into this in the future" would be nice lol and I'm sure people don't even care about the credit too, we just want to make this game better

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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    Well this is a major thread so they should get them, plus there was a suggestions forum in the summer I guess, but they didn't provide feedback. A "we think this might be useful, we'll look into this in the future" would be nice lol and I'm sure people don't even care about the credit too, we just want to make this game better
    Just because they dont comment doesnt mean they arent interested. As this thread has gone on, ive been watching the people who are viewing the thread (shown), and Paul isnt the only the one from SI whose been reading. So they will have picked up on the more interesting posts

  26. #726
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    Of course they will, but if they say that they'll look into it, then we can pressure them if they don't look into it, thus making the game better faster :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    Of course they will, but if they say that they'll look into it, then we can pressure them if they don't look into it, thus making the game better faster :P
    Lol, they can only go as fast as getting it right, though i know where you are coming from. regardless of the percentages of who thinks what, the fact that people have been debating/showing evidence from all points of view is whats caught their attention, and probably moved it higher up the agenda, so job well done on all accounts. Personally i'm the "its more complicated than morale" camp. BiggusD summed it up exceptionally well. But I also accept its probably not something to happen very quickly, given the complexities

  28. #728
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    Yeah I agree with you on that, it'll take time due to most of it being an AI issue and the technology is barely enough for the current level of realism. But I think this game is getting too few features every year and it feels like they aren't trying hard enough. Plus, as far as I know, the team who did the older CM games moved on to doing FM so many good features they had in CM games could be implemented to FM but they didn't. And the fact that we still have only one set piece tactic per set piece is an insult to us, and their game making abilities So the higher the pressure they are under, the more they will add I guess.. At least they should

  29. #729
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    Im playing as Liverpool, won in a canter in my first season, second season struggled to fourth, currently second in my thirds season in a close race.

  30. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    I'm looking at all the saves an pkms I have been sent and where an area of the game can be tweaked without unbalancing things for the majority they will be.

    As I stated earlier, I want to reduce shelf life of extremes of morale and see if that helps, as well as make team talks a bit harder the lower the managers' reputation in relation to his players. At this stage I honestly haven't found much more to go on at least in terms of the match engine.

    I dont have a timeline for this at present as its vital we test it properly given we believe the vast majority of users are very happy with this release.

    I don't understand why you don't even consider to reduce the effect of morale on player decision? Just try it once at least...

  31. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by phnompenhandy View Post
    SI didn't and can't say exactly that. To paraphrase from memory PaulC's spin (a post earlier in this thread?), he'll tweak the effects of morale at the extremes and make sure the effects don't last as long. As with any fix, no news of when until it's out.
    Thanks for response!

  32. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    we believe the vast majority of users are very happy with this release.
    Thanks for looking into it.

    Then, as we all can comment numbers of this poll's only I would hardly define 70% a vast majority.

    In my personal way of speaking at least 90% is a vast majority. 70% is just a majority in my country.

  33. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by grep View Post
    Thanks for looking into it.

    Then, as we all can comment numbers of this poll's only I would hardly define 70% a vast majority.

    In my personal way of speaking at least 90% is a vast majority. 70% is just a majority in my country.
    Ok, but 1000 voters perhaps dont represent the whole universe of FM players.
    We must not forget the thousands of players, that play the game and, happy or not with it, dont come to this forum to talk about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grep View Post
    In my personal way of speaking at least 90% is a vast majority. 70% is just a majority in my country.
    May be he meant 'vast majority of beginners are very happy with this release'? ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FestyF View Post
    May be he meant 'vast majority of beginners are very happy with this release'? ;)
    Why people continue making difference between beginners and long term players.
    Really FestyF... i play CM or FM since 1994. How about you?

    It's just stupid when people come to the conclusion that if you are happy with the game you are a beginner, if you think the game its easy then you are a experient player!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    Why people continue making difference between beginners and long term players.
    Really FestyF... i play CM or FM since 1994. How about you?

    It's just stupid when people come to the conclusion that if you are happy with the game you are a beginner, if you think the game its easy then you are a experient player!
    Calm down mate. The wink smilie was there for a reason.

    But I do wonder sometimes whether SI developers and testers actually play test the game? Test procedures are all well and good but some issues (specially in a game as big and deep as FM) can't be found until you play test the game over and over and over.
    Last edited by FestyF; 10-11-2011 at 09:46.

  37. #737
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    In a democracy 70% is a vaste majority.

    I agree that separating beginners and long term players is just a try to attach importance to a concern. The poll does not say anything specific about the voters.

    We have to wait and see what effect adjusting of morale has to the game.

  38. #738
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    I have no doubt that SI developers and testers play the game, and tested! The problem, as i see it, in this case is very subjective. To determine if a game it's easy or not, it all comes down to the player that is playing the game. So you can think the game its easy... others will think the game is harder.

    I suppose the same happen in SI HQ. They play the game, and they come to the conclusion that the game presented the same amount of dificulty as the others version.

    About your commentary, i know you put there the wink. The problem is that this argument as been stated several times in this thread. And i really think that this is unfair for the newer users. Everybody (beginners and older users) have the right to play and enjoy the game. But some people are almost trying to create a division between beginners and older users. We must not forget that the game is made for everybody, a not for a specific type of player.

  39. #739
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    I've gone back to fm10 and the difference is unreal. I appreciate it so much more thanks to fm12's easyness now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    I have no doubt that SI developers and testers play the game, and tested! The problem, as i see it, in this case is very subjective. To determine if a game it's easy or not, it all comes down to the player that is playing the game. So you can think the game its easy... others will think the game is harder.

    I suppose the same happen in SI HQ. They play the game, and they come to the conclusion that the game presented the same amount of dificulty as the others version.

    About your commentary, i know you put there the wink. The problem is that this argument as been stated several times in this thread. And i really think that this is unfair for the newer users. Everybody (beginners and older users) have the right to play and enjoy the game. But some people are almost trying to create a division between beginners and older users. We must not forget that the game is made for everybody, a not for a specific type of player.
    Outwith Biggus, that is the best post in this thread, thankfully there are still some sensible people left on here. There should be no divide between new and long term players, what there should be is a game that is accessible to all users, at the moment it seems a select few are having an issue, Paul has said he will look at a few things that will hopefully appease this group whilst keeping the vast majority of users happy, we cannot ask for anymore really.

    To suggest SI dont play or test FM suggests you dont know anything about SI to be honest.

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    Milnerpoint, all you seem to be doing is trying to create a divide between posters in this thread. Every time. Its got nothing to do with new/long term players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanNUFC View Post
    Milnerpoint, all you seem to be doing is trying to create a divide between posters in this thread. Every time. Its got nothing to do with new/long term players.
    SeanNUFC, i suggest you go and read the last posts in this thread. It wasn't milnerpoint who try to create a divide. quite the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanNUFC View Post
    Milnerpoint, all you seem to be doing is trying to create a divide between posters in this thread. Every time. Its got nothing to do with new/long term players.
    I havent tried to create any divide, especially not in this thread, i have infact tried to show that SI need to make this game accessible to every single user, not just one group of users and i definitely have no interest in creating divides between posters, i dont know any of you guys on a personal level so it makes no difference to me who gets along or not. Please read what i am saying, i think you will find your post is a bit out of order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanNUFC View Post
    I've gone back to fm10 and the difference is unreal. I appreciate it so much more thanks to fm12's easyness now.
    I went back to FM11 last week for a while after I lost patience with '12. And even the difference between 11 and 12 is unreal imho. I don't know why, and I accept SI's statements about nothing fundamental has changed between the two that could cause the easiness difference. They said the ME is practically identical. Thats fine. They said teamtalks have no significant impact. I can accept that. As far as I know default tactics have remained the same? (I used default tactics and shouts in both 11 and 12, and like I said the challenge is like chalk and cheese so no one can say I've "learned how to beat the ME in this game thanks to my time playing FM11").

    So I don't envy SI's task at pinpointing the problem. I said earlier I doubt this fix will actually fix anything, or at least it won't make any perceivable difference - its too much of a risk making changes to the game this year when most people are happy with its current state. But I really hope they make this issue a priority for next years game. This is my opinion so people reading it understand that before you bite my head off lol, but the FM payerbase on the whole has moved on to the next level of challenge, intelligence, experience (whatever you want to call it), but FM's AI has stagnated and is probably a few years behind that curve now. Its like all games, they have to evolve with the players that play them. I have no doubt the AI is improved every year, but I also feel it still plays 2nd priority to shiny new features that can be hyped and sold to the masses. If thats true, that policy has to change for at least 1 year for the game AI to "catch up" imho.

    Next year I really hope SI release FM Editor 2.0. An editor that gives us much more than just being able to change names and stats (stats that never last anyway since however 'hard' you make your starting DB, it'll be all unravelled within 5-10 seasons anyway). We need a much more powerful editor that can really get at the core of some of the things that govern crucial aspects relating to game longevity and its challenge. I'll post my ideas in the wishlist thread and hope someone from SI notices it. Wether its doable for next year I don't know, but it could be the direction needed to solve the easiness problem and at the same time save SI time figuring out how to please everyone.
    Last edited by Erimus1876; 10-11-2011 at 11:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanNUFC View Post
    I've gone back to fm10 and the difference is unreal. I appreciate it so much more thanks to fm12's easyness now.
    Same here. I've gone back to FM 11.3 and it's giving me a decent challenge atm. Also, this year's FM has taught me and hopefully many other customers to first check the reviews from like minded gamers before buying the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FestyF View Post
    Same here. I've gone back to FM 11.3 and it's giving me a decent challenge atm. Also, this year's FM has taught me and hopefully many other customers to first check the reviews from like minded gamers before buying the game.
    Or listen to your intuition before clicking the "purchase FMxx" button on Steam. Mine was nagging me all day on oct 21st to wait for at least 12.1. I shoulda listend to the higher self

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    I usually wait to buy fm, steam just made it so much easier....damn you steam...*goes to make anti-steam thread*....

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    Why i have feeling PaulC is working alone in fixing the problem? Erimus, please put your, mine and other good ideas in wishlist. Im little tired and empty. I dont have good feeling at all. SI thinks that problem is just in "moral" thing. Like they didnt read problems with scouting, AI of computer managers. Old match engine needs new 1... etc. Maybe FM 2013 is the answer.

    P.s. yes, you learn on your mistakes. Next year wait for me to write review here, then decide about buying FM13. Hahaha.
    Last edited by Matej; 10-11-2011 at 11:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    Why i have feeling PaulC is working alone in fixing the problem? Erimus, please put your, mine and others good ideas in wishlist. Im little tired and empty. I dont have good feeling at all. SI thinks that problem is just in "moral" thing. Like they didnt read problems with scouting, AI of computer managers. Old match engine needs new 1... etc. Maybe FM 2013 is the answer.

    P.s. yes, you learn on your mistakes. Next year wait for me to write review here, then decide about buying FM13. Hahaha.
    That is not a feeling, that is the truth.

    Maybe Paul C is not alone and he is discussing the matter with others SIs but they will tweak only the morale in a light way.

    This of course will lead to the very same situation of today and we are warning them since now like we did in the early days of the demo.

    We have been totally ignored BTW and I also fear the tweaks will be so minimal that we will all ( 30% ) have to quit not only FM12 but the whole future series as well.

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    Luckily in about 12 hours I can play Skyrim, obviously only because I have time waiting a tweak for FM 12 to start my realistic career of the year.

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    Well I think that there is no difference, difficultywise, between fm10 11 and 12. See how it is? You guys think there is a difference, I think there isn't. We've both been playing this game since God knows what date, and we disagree. SI does their own testing and decide on it since they are the developers and I guess they agreed with my point of view. They could have agreed with yours too but the fact is, they can never, ever satisfy everyone and difficulty is so subjective. Plus, I can't even believe your play-tests, you know, clicking continue and winning titles with a default 4-4-2.. Every single match I tried that, we were trashed. I don't think you're lying, don't get me wrong. It's just that something is definitely wrong with your games since your effect is neglected by the match engine. However, what tactics I give DEFINITELY changes everything in my game. All SI should do is make the game consistent for everybody. But if they specifically make it harder, than my beautiful game where my tactics actually mean something will become unrealistically hard. So take it easy and cut SI some slack, I'm sure they will find a solutionj eventually. But your arguments about the tactics being neglected is invalid for many users, including me, since when we try the same tests we get different results and even a single tactical mistake cost us games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    Well I think that there is no difference, difficultywise, between fm10 11 and 12. See how it is? You guys think there is a difference, I think there isn't. We've both been playing this game since God knows what date, and we disagree. SI does their own testing and decide on it since they are the developers and I guess they agreed with my point of view. They could have agreed with yours too but the fact is, they can never, ever satisfy everyone and difficulty is so subjective. Plus, I can't even believe your play-tests, you know, clicking continue and winning titles with a default 4-4-2.. Every single match I tried that, we were trashed. I don't think you're lying, don't get me wrong. It's just that something is definitely wrong with your games since your effect is neglected by the match engine. However, what tactics I give DEFINITELY changes everything in my game. All SI should do is make the game consistent for everybody. But if they specifically make it harder, than my beautiful game where my tactics actually mean something will become unrealistically hard. So take it easy and cut SI some slack, I'm sure they will find a solutionj eventually. But your arguments about the tactics being neglected is invalid for many users, including me, since when we try the same tests we get different results and even a single tactical mistake cost us games.
    Yes we just made it all up for a laugh.

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    egesagin- yes, you and yours won. Its only the game in the end. Im goin right now to read Dostoevskys book. You and your "light" players play FM2012 and win everthing in first season. Bon appetit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post
    Yes we just made it all up for a laugh.
    Indeed, we are evil.WE HATE FM!!!111

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    No, I'm saying that the game, for some reason, works differently in some computers and they should fix that. If they make it harder to satisfy you guys, instead of fix that weird problem, then it will be unrealistically hard for us. I understand your reasoning and like I said, I did some testing myself too and the results were all too realistic and if I make a single tactical mistake, the game punishes me violently so tactics do mean something, at least for me. They need to make the game consistent..

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    Are people managing to win everything with the worst team of the division, with no signings and just a default 442 ?

    I must say i'm not finding it a lot different than FM11 but haven't managed to settle on a save yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    egesagin- yes, you and yours won. Its only the game in the end. Im goin right now to read Dostoevskys book. You and your "light" players play FM2012 and win everthing in first season. Bon appetit.
    Did I say anythin about winning the first season? I'm talkign about the tactics. Tactics do matter, if you play a default 4-4-2 without doing anything else, and still winning every game, that is a problem indeed and some people claim that. However, I don't have that stupid problem and if I mess the tactics up, I get punished. I don't want to win everything in the first season, I'm just saying that tactics matter, that's all.

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    careful now lets not create a divide between users ;)

    Seriously tho, no one is saying your making anything up, what he is saying is not every single person is finding this game as easy as you guys make out, myself included, i have played fm for at least 14/15 years, i would put myself into the long term, or hardcore or whatever buzz word you want to put, FMer, and i have not found this version any easier. Which says this is not a case of switching one thing and all will be well again. Which also means changing anything is going to have to be very carefully done and thoroughly tested, its not an overnight thing or a quick thing to be done. No one is ignoring anything, infact the opposite, Paul has regularly kept upto date with this thread, and despite constant calls i would image the number of save games he has been given is quite small considering how big an issue this is being made out to be. This "problem" shows exactly why he needs as many saves as possible. This is obviously being caused by specific circumstances in game, circumstances that are not repeated in every game, so he needs to see your particular game to see why that particular save is being seen as too easy.
    Erimus, Fede, Grep, SeanNUFC, Matej and FestyF, have you guys all given Paul a copy of your save? I really hope so, you guys seen to have the biggest issue here so your saves should prove extremely helpful to Paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    No, I'm saying that the game, for some reason, works differently in some computers and they should fix that. If they make it harder to satisfy you guys, instead of fix that weird problem, then it will be unrealistically hard for us. I understand your reasoning and like I said, I did some testing myself too and the results were all too realistic and if I make a single tactical mistake, the game punishes me violently so tactics do mean something, at least for me. They need to make the game consistent..
    That I agree on. I said in another post to you that I doubt SI will risk making this change big incase it upsets those who like it as it is, so you shouldn't be worried. SI know what they're doing. You won't even notice there's been a fix

    Its more for next years game I'm hoping fundamental changes comes in, and only then via the editor so anyone who doesn't want to be affected by "difficulty" settings and tweaks, won't be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post

    Its more for next years game I'm hoping fundamental changes comes in, and only then via the editor so anyone who doesn't want to be affected by "difficulty" settings and tweaks, won't be.
    Can i ask what you would propose with this new editor, what would you like them to open up and made editable?

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    I don't want a difficulty setting in FM games, so doesn't SI. Because it makes the game unrealistic. They should make the game as realistic as possible, to the limits of AI technology. But still, you can win everything if you understand how the game works and have a bit of luck too. Currently, I do not believe that they can do much on AI managers. I think the technology doesn't allow it. They can of course make the game harder for players, using cpu cheats, but then again, I think an easy game, due to tech limitations is better than an artificially difficult game. That's my opininon of course but if they can't find a way to make it more realistic, only way you'll be satisfied is through artificial means and I'm pretty sure you'll say "the refs are always on the computers' side" or things like that in a few days..

    PS: Great post again Erimus

    PPS: I don2t care if beginners find it difficult or sth. It just has to be realistic to the limits, and I think it's pretty close to the limits currently and the "tactics don't mean anything" issue you guys are having is a bug with the match engine since others have tested it and didn't experience what you did. Hopefully they'll make it fine because I would be as frustrated as you guys, if the game was too easy. I understand your disappointment
    Last edited by egesagin; 10-11-2011 at 11:55.

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    the people who thinks the game its too easy, do you think that in every save?
    For example, did you try different saves with the same team and get the same fealing that the game is easy?

    Did you try different saves with another team?

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    Some of them did, and got similar results. I think it's a code issue but it should be handled with care since it doesn't happen to everyone. Tets it for yourself if you have time and tell us the results..

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Can i ask what you would propose with this new editor, what would you like them to open up and made editable?
    It would have to be an editor rewrite to incorporate parameter files, unless SI are similar to BF/EA who make some of their parameter files that effect aspects of the gameword editible in the Fifa series.

    If its feasible I would like the morale system, the effect of teamtalks, training, match preparation, team meetings, the effectiveness of reps, and even AI tactics all editible. Also AI transfer agressiveness, the abilty to set a minimum digit for all newly generated AI staff. The abilty to do the same for newgen players and have it dependent on their posistion. There is loads of stuff I probably can't even remember at the moment, but I feel the editor is the key to solving the difficulty issue because the last thing we want is this thread to turn into a never ending "now its too hard", "now too easy", "now too hard again" thread. SI have enough on their plate. Giving the playerbase the tools to create as tough or as easy a challenge as they like via their own database creations is one way forward (but not the only I'm sure).

    At the moment the database 'strength' is only a short term thing, it gets progressively weaker the longer you play. So we need the abilty to fix that by setting minimum limits on newgens, and also the abilty to effect other aspects on how the other stuff I mentioned effects the day to day running of a football club.

    SI can concentrate on AI transfer policy and AI player development, as I doubt that could be something the editor would help with.

    Imagine this time next year people not only releasing databases with transfer updates and new playable leagues but also databases labled FM13 Pro DB, FM13 World Class DB, FM Sunday League DB. There's your skill levels right there, and its purely optional.

    The game out of the box need never be touched as far as any of that goes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    Well I think that there is no difference, difficultywise, between fm10 11 and 12. See how it is? You guys think there is a difference, I think there isn't. We've both been playing this game since God knows what date, and we disagree. SI does their own testing and decide on it since they are the developers and I guess they agreed with my point of view. They could have agreed with yours too but the fact is, they can never, ever satisfy everyone and difficulty is so subjective. Plus, I can't even believe your play-tests, you know, clicking continue and winning titles with a default 4-4-2.. Every single match I tried that, we were trashed. I don't think you're lying, don't get me wrong. It's just that something is definitely wrong with your games since your effect is neglected by the match engine. However, what tactics I give DEFINITELY changes everything in my game. All SI should do is make the game consistent for everybody. But if they specifically make it harder, than my beautiful game where my tactics actually mean something will become unrealistically hard. So take it easy and cut SI some slack, I'm sure they will find a solutionj eventually. But your arguments about the tactics being neglected is invalid for many users, including me, since when we try the same tests we get different results and even a single tactical mistake cost us games.
    The one guy in the thread that said he did that, actually tweaked tactics via shouts during the games. If he knew how to do that correctly, the tactic wouldn't actually be "bog standard". Besides, if you pick a standard tactic you won't be bothered with having to get used to the tactic, which is an advantage, and by signing no players the match preparation and team bonding issues would be minimized.

    He would actually have been more challenged if he changed the tactic to a completely new formation + instructions, signed many players and tried to succeed using one tactic for the most part, just like I do. He ran his test save in "noob mode" and therefore had massive success since he as a veteran would know how to adjust the arguably good standard tactic to any situation in the game, unlike the "noobs" which that type of gameplay is designed for.

    This is not to say that FM12 is not too easy, though.

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    I find this difficulty issue really baffling.

    My first game on FM12 (now in fourth season) I've really struggled to perform. I have about the best players, coaches and facilities in the league but after a strong start and middle I suffer a late season collapse that ends my title challenge.

    I wish I could blame it on the tactic creator making me lazy but I used a similar approach in FM11 and found plenty of success there. It's not since FM09 that I've really immersed myself in TT&F and spent hours tweaking every option to perfect a tactic. It worked fine then but in 10 and 11 it seemed unnecessary so I've reduced it to a 'broad strokes' approach that just isn't working in FM12 so far.

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    milnerpoint - i see you are from Aberdeen and A. Ferguson was manager of Aberdeen. I know that you know, but for others, younger ones: Only time Aberdeen won something in Europe was Cup winners Cup in 80s. In last 30 years Aberdeen didnt won nothing. When A.F. left, that was the end of winning.

    What i wont to say is, football is far more intelligent thing than people think it is. ANd im looking this game from that point of view. If you give me the game where 12 year old kid can win everthing in first season without pain and suffer, i wont play that game. Coma.

    i would pay some programmer to make me some mod where i can take some 2nd division club and in 15 seasons with my best skills i maybe win something. Some uefa league or domestic cup. No big things, because its really hard to win big with lets say Nottingham Forest these days. But IF i win something big, i would feel like m.f. Brian Clough.

    Now, with this engine and easy concept, i feel like ...Like playin poker with ougly fat chick. And i really dont wanna take her clothes off. I dont feel i achieve something, because 90% of people can do that without really tryin. Get it?

    I read your posts and i know you are smart guy, you can see that FM is generally 2 easy and that all people around the world can enjoy the game. People who never touched the ball in real life can win everthing even they are rookies in FM. SO dont give me small talk, we all know whats goin on here.

    I respect P. and O. Collyer, because of them i run from school in 90s to play CM. somethimes i didnt go to school at all, just to play cm. but this game is just too easy for me. Thats not the end of the world. Some day , maybe some indie programmer, like they where 20 years ago, will make hardcore football sim, real simulation.

    THis is game for big crowd and thats ok, I just wish they put difficulty levels for us who wants more.
    Last edited by Matej; 10-11-2011 at 12:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    The one guy in the thread that said he did that, actually tweaked tactics via shouts during the games. If he knew how to do that correctly, the tactic wouldn't actually be "bog standard". Besides, if you pick a standard tactic you won't be bothered with having to get used to the tactic, which is an advantage, and by signing no players the match preparation and team bonding issues would be minimized.

    He would actually have been more challenged if he changed the tactic to a completely new formation + instructions, signed many players and tried to succeed using one tactic for the most part, just like I do. He ran his test save in "noob mode" and therefore had massive success since he as a veteran would know how to adjust the arguably good standard tactic to any situation in the game, unlike the "noobs" which that type of gameplay is designed for.

    This is not to say that FM12 is not too easy, though.
    Again Biggus very well said.

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    If he doesn't use the shouts and still get such results, then it would mean that the default tactics, at least some of them, are op. Many people got me wrong btw, I'm just disagreeing with the people who say that tactics don't matter in this game. I completely agree that the scouting system, player search, AI capabilities etc. should change to offer us a more realistic experience, be it harder or easier, the key point is realism imho

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post
    It would have to be an editor rewrite to incorporate parameter files, unless SI are similar to BF/EA who make some of their parameter files that effect aspects of the gameword editible in the Fifa series.

    If its feasible I would like the morale system, the effect of teamtalks, training, match preparation, team meetings, the effectiveness of reps, and even AI tactics all editible. Also AI transfer agressiveness, the abilty to set a minimum digit for all newly generated AI staff. The abilty to do the same for newgen players and have it dependent on their posistion. There is loads of stuff I probably can't even remember at the moment, but I feel the editor is the key to solving the difficulty issue because the last thing we want is this thread to turn into a never ending "now its too hard", "now too easy", "now too hard again" thread. SI have enough on their plate. Giving the playerbase the tools to create as tough or as easy a challenge as they like via their own database creations is one way forward (but not the only I'm sure).

    At the moment the database 'strength' is only a short term thing, it gets progressively weaker the longer you play. So we need the abilty to fix that by setting minimum limits on newgens, and also the abilty to effect other aspects on how the other stuff I mentioned effects the day to day running of a football club.

    SI can concentrate on AI transfer policy and AI player development, as I doubt that could be something the editor would help with.

    Imagine this time next year people not only releasing databases with transfer updates and new playable leagues but also databases labled FM13 Pro DB, FM13 World Class DB, FM Sunday League DB. There's your skill levels right there, and its purely optional.

    The game out of the box need never be touched as far as any of that goes.
    If any of that is in next year's version, I can forgive myself for wasting 30 bucks on this year's version. (Unless of course if a fix is out in due time)

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    ive gone back to FM11 and finding the challenge much better...i doubt this years version will be "fixed" to become challenging.
    lesson learnt,dont buy FM on release day anymore....shame really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    milnerpoint - i see you are from Aberdeen and A. Ferguson was manager of Aberdeen. I know that you know, but for others, younger ones: Only time Aberdeen won something in Europe was Cup winners Cup in 80s. In last 30 years Aberdeen didnt won nothing. When A.F. left, that was the end of winning.
    I fail to see what this has to do with this thread really? Care to explain a bit please? FYI we actually won the league cup in 1996 but i really dont see what this has to do with anything discussed here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    What i wont to say is, football is far more intelligent thing than people think it is. ANd im looking this game from that point of view. If you give me the game where 12 year old kid can win everthing in first season without pain and suffer, i wont play that game. Coma.

    If i have more time, i would pay some programmer to make me some mod where i can take some 2nd division club and in 15 seasons with my best skills i maybe win something. Some uefa league or domestic cup. No big things, because its really hard to win big with lets say Nottingham Forest these days. But IF i win something big, i would feel like m.f. Brian Clough.

    Now, with this engine and easy concept, i feel like ...Like playin poker with ougly fat chick. And i really dont wanna take her clothes off. I dont feel i achieve something, because 90% of people can do that without really tryin. Get it?

    I read your posts and i know you are smart guy, you can see that FM is generally 2 easy and that all people around the world can enjoy the game. People who never touched the ball in real life can win everthing even they are rookies in FM. SO dont give me small talk, we all know whats goin on here. I respect P. and O. Collyer, but this game is just too easy for me. Thats not the end of the world. Some day , maybe some indie programmer, like they where 20 years ago, will make hardcore football sim, real simulation.

    THis is game for big crowd and thats ok, I just wish they put difficulty levels for us who wonts more.
    90% of who is achieve what? This poll is a tiny minortiy of posters and even then the majority are arguing against this thread, where is this 90% of people coming from?
    Have you considered that maybe FM is set to the highest difficulty setting as default? I dont actually think FM is generally too easy, i do think they have a lot of work to be done to the AI and long term games because of the AI but i dont think the game has been dumbed down for casual gamers or anything.
    Like i say i hope, as one of the more vocal parties in all this, you have been providing Paul with your save games each time you have started one and found it too easy, that is the only real way to show him what your problem is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    the people who thinks the game its too easy, do you think that in every save?
    For example, did you try different saves with the same team and get the same fealing that the game is easy?

    Did you try different saves with another team?
    My first 4 saves were with teams predicted to be relegation certs, because thats the challenge I wanted to experience. All 4 saw me in the top 6 approaching the midway point, one saw me top 8 points clear in Feburary. In no way shape or form was I ever threatend with relegation and was often safe from it with half a season to play.

    Now this is they key that a lot of people have missed. If I had done that by using all the managerial aspects provided, like buying better players, devising tactics, training my players, and talking to my players etc, I would have accepted it as being bloody good management. However, I did none of that. I picked the team and used shouts during games. That alone was enough for me to breeze through the league, often with long unbeaten spells, and in one case go 6 or 7 games without the opposition even getting a sniff of a goal against me (I was the worst team in the league!). That is why I felt FM12 was too easy, I can't speak for others - just look at their posts and screenshots for what they experienced in their games.

    After 4 attempts I uninstalled the game in dissapoitment and went back to FM11, but had an idea to look at tactical attributes in the database to find a solution. FM12 reinstalled and lots of AI TA's edited later, the first 2 new saves I played seemed challenging. SI then said TA's don't work like that so it shouldn't work. Fair enough. The overpowered morale system was then brought up, I started a new save and used FMRTE to reset my players morale to 'Okay' every time the majority reached superb, and I've finally got a game going that I enjoy although it does seem morale jumps back up to very good and superb far too quickly from what I've seen!

    I did try a normal save with an Italian team, Napoli I think, anyway one that was predicted 8th, and I was overachieving with them too despite doing nothing but picking the team and shouting abuse at them in the 3D game... some say I shouldn't even use shouts as that could be the cause of the games ease, forgetting about all the other handicaps and limitations I imposed... so now if I don't do any of the stuff I mentioned AND don't shout at my players I might as well be playing Football Spectator (tm).

    Thats a long story, short, or shorter. I'm passed testing now and am not interested in any more theories of what I should have done or should have avoided. Someone else can take up the reigns for all I care. I'll play the game with self-imposed handicaps if I have to. If it works, I aint complaining anymore ;)
    Last edited by Erimus1876; 10-11-2011 at 13:53.

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    milnerpoint- you really failed to see? Its obvious. YOu need great manager to win something big. Aberdeen needed A. Ferguson to win 3 scottish titles and CwC. In 100 years they won just 4-5 titles, 3 was with A.F. If you still dont see what im trying to say, maybe i was wrong about you. WHat i wanted to say, in example of club from your town, is that to be the manager is NOT easy. ANd in this game we are all Alex Ferguson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    But if they specifically make it harder, than my beautiful game where my tactics actually mean something will become unrealistically hard. So take it easy and cut SI some slack, I'm sure they will find a solutionj eventually. But your arguments about the tactics being neglected is invalid for many users, including me, since when we try the same tests we get different results and even a single tactical mistake cost us games.
    Nobody is saying they should make it 'harder'. All we want is a challenging game in a realistic way (this has been discussed hundreds of time on this forum), which isn't the case at the moment.

    And can you please care to explain what is this 'technology limitations' you keep talking about? What are those limitations and how do you know it even exists currently in FM?
    Last edited by FestyF; 10-11-2011 at 12:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    i would pay some programmer to make me some mod where i can take some 2nd division club and in 15 seasons with my best skills i maybe win something.
    Man I would pay someone money just to mod a game were it takes me 15 seasons just to get out of league 1 or 2, never mind winning anything ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    milnerpoint- you really failed to see? Its obvious. YOu need great manager to win something big. Aberdeen needed A. Ferguson to win 3 scottish titles and CwC. In 100 years they won just 4-5 titles, 3 was with A.F. If you still dont see what im trying to say, maybe i was wrong about you. WHat i wanted to say, in example of club from your town, is that to be the manager is NOT easy. ANd in this game we are all Alex Ferguson.
    I suggest reading up on what your claiming, Aberdeen have won more that 4-5 trophies:

    Major honours

    Scottish League Premier division:
    Champions (4): 1954–55; 1979–80; 1983–84; 1984–85
    Runners–up (13): 1910–11; 1936–37; 1955–56; 1970–71; 1971–72; 1977–78; 1980–81; 1981–82; 1988–89; 1989–90; 1990–91; 1992–93; 1993–94
    Scottish Cup:
    Winners (7): 1947; 1970; 1982; 1983; 1984; 1986; 1990
    Runners-up (8): 1937; 1953; 1954; 1959; 1967; 1978; 1993; 2000
    Scottish League Cup:
    Winners (5): 1955–56; 1976–77; 1985–86; 1989–90; 1995–96
    Runners-up (7): 1946–47; 1978–79; 1979–80; 1987–88; 1988–89; 1992–93; 1999–2000
    European Cup Winners Cup:
    Champions (1): 1983
    European Super Cup:
    Champions (1) : 1983

    Please do not try to educate me on my home club.

    The game will NEVER be 100% realistic when it comes to winning with smaller clubs, because very few people would enjoy real life management of smaller clubs, people want to be able to achieve eventually. Your right none of us are SAF, but if this game was set up so only people with his abilities would be successful, then NONE of us would ever achieve anything more than winning a few games a season and at best avoiding relegation every season.

    The game has to be balanced to both incorporate reality and understand it is a game, designed for enjoyment. There is nothing enjoyable about being sacked from every job you take every 18 months because your not SAF, or JM. Despite your probably come back of "yes i would enjoy that" its fairly obvious that if the game was set up to be that difficult, no one would buy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FestyF View Post
    Nobody is saying they should make it 'harder'. All we want is a challenging game in a realistic way (this has been discussed hundreds of time on this forum), which isn't the case at the moment.

    And can you please care to explain what is this 'technology limitations' you keep talking about? What are those limitations and how do you know it even exists currently in FM?
    As far as I know, computers can't learn things on their own. At least not experimental ones. So the AI managers will not learn our tactics and fight back.. This is just a single aspect opf the AI limitations

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Despite your probably come back of "yes i would enjoy that" its fairly obvious that if the game was set up to be that difficult, no one would buy it.
    Despite your failed attempt of justifying that no one would buy it, I would say a substantial number of customers would buy it for that reason (difficult to win) only.

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    milnerpoint- o come on, dont be forum troll. i said correct, they won 4 Scottish League Premier division. i just wrote titles and i ment Scottish League Premier d. We in Croatia dont count runners up as something important. Nice collection of trophies btw. Wish you club all the best in the future.
    Last edited by Matej; 10-11-2011 at 13:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FestyF View Post
    Despite your failed attempt of justifying that no one would buy it, I would say a substantial number of customers would buy it for that reason (difficult to win) only.
    If the game was as hard as real life football management, then only a very very small minority would buy it, such as the case with every other hardcore simulation game. Plus, If you want that kind of challenge, you can always try managing a real club, probably most of us can earn the amount our current jobs pay or will pay..

    I would be a part of that minority and buy the game though, but you gotta understand that it's a job for SI so they will not make the game that realistic. Perhaps they will add a hardcore mode or sth. for us simulation fans but vanilla FM will always be easier compared to real life and our desire

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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    As far as I know, computers can't learn things on their own. At least not experimental ones. So the AI managers will not learn our tactics and fight back.. This is just a single aspect opf the AI limitations
    Even the most basic AI mechanisms can 'learn' within set parameters. FM's AI not being able to learn tactics is just one out of it's endless list of shortcomings. It can't build a team. It can't maintain a team. It can't foresee squad aging and it can't develop youth. It can't compete in the transfer market. It can't select tactics based on it's players. All of this is not exactly rocket science and it's definitely possible to develop an AI that is at least decent at these very basic aspects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    If the game was as hard as real life football management, then only a very very small minority would buy it, such as the case with every other hardcore simulation game. Plus, If you want that kind of challenge, you can always try managing a real club, probably most of us can earn the amount our current jobs pay or will pay..

    I would be a part of that minority and buy the game though, but you gotta understand that it's a job for SI so they will not make the game that realistic. Perhaps they will add a hardcore mode or sth. for us simulation fans but vanilla FM will always be easier compared to real life and our desire
    We will all shut our mouths if SI come out and say the game can't/won't be as challenging and hard as real life football management. But since the game is marketed as 'the most realistic football management simulation ever', we all can demand realism, can't we?

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    Well our definitions of learning are different then. However, you2re right about that long list, but even this complexity of AI causes lot's of bugs, It would be horrendously hard for SI to make it all at once so I'm sure they will fix those issues in time but if they try to make it all right in a single update to the game, the game won't be playable due to a high number of bugs. You think the game is too buggy now? Think how it will be after such a major change. And that is really a major change which would take at least 2-3 years to make perfect, with lots of testing etc.

    @FestyF: Well it is the most realistic football management game, so they're right :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    If the game was as hard as real life football management, then only a very very small minority would buy it, such as the case with every other hardcore simulation game. Plus, If you want that kind of challenge, you can always try managing a real club, probably most of us can earn the amount our current jobs pay or will pay..

    I would be a part of that minority and buy the game though, but you gotta understand that it's a job for SI so they will not make the game that realistic. Perhaps they will add a hardcore mode or sth. for us simulation fans but vanilla FM will always be easier compared to real life and our desire

    esegain, you see, THATS why games have DIFFICULTY levels. jesus i feel like im in early 90s and explain people what game must have. We dont have same IQ and experience, is that so hard to explain. And yes, some people here are dumb. Dumb as Forrest Gump. Like in any other forum. Like people who vote for wrong people for dumb reasons. Nothing wrong with that , its life and life only. But thats why we who are smarter need diff levels. If we dont get harder game, we wont play it. Nothing wrong about that. WHat do you think, do less smart people play FM? Ofcourse they play, its FUN. Even people who didnt finnish school play this game and find it fun.
    Thats why we need you know what.
    Last edited by Matej; 10-11-2011 at 13:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Äktsjon Männ View Post
    Even the most basic AI mechanisms can 'learn' within set parameters. FM's AI not being able to learn tactics is just one out of it's endless list of shortcomings. It can't build a team. It can't maintain a team. It can't foresee squad aging and it can't develop youth. It can't compete in the transfer market. It can't select tactics based on it's players. All of this is not exactly rocket science and it's definitely possible to develop an AI that is at least decent at these very basic aspects.
    About the tactics issue. I wonder if it would be possible for the AI to learn off the human player. For example say you design a tactic that brings you great success with a releativey average, or even poor team [we're assuming this for FM20 when SI have ironed out all the other things that make it easy to win games ;)]. So everytime you win with this tactic, it gains in reputation. Eventually a reputation threashold is reached and AI managers (give them an "open to new tactical theories" attribute) and some will then adopt that tactic and build their teams around it accordingly. This happens in real life when someone comes up with a new system, its often adopted by clubs within a year or two if it proves successful.

    The AI would learn from the human player. It could also work with training schedules too. If you create one that has great success at developing players, expect the AI to one day copy it.

    Again, something for SI to mull over for FM2020
    Last edited by Erimus1876; 10-11-2011 at 13:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    esegain, you see, THATS why games have DIFFICULTY levels. jesus i feel like im in early 90s and explain people what game must have. We dont have same IQ and experience, is that so hard to explain. And yes, some people here are dumb. Dumb as Forrest Gump. Like in any other forum. Like people who vote for wrong people for dumb reasons. Nothing wrong with that , its life and life only. But thats why we who are smarter need diff levels. If we dont get harder game, we wont play it. Nothing wrong about that.
    SI is aiming to make a REALISTIC game, difficulty levels make it UNREALISTIC be it harder or easier but still unrealistic. So they won't add difficulty levels. Jesus, is it too ahrd to understand that adding different difficulty levels is against SI's realism policy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    The one guy in the thread that said he did that, actually tweaked tactics via shouts during the games. If he knew how to do that correctly, the tactic wouldn't actually be "bog standard". Besides, if you pick a standard tactic you won't be bothered with having to get used to the tactic, which is an advantage, and by signing no players the match preparation and team bonding issues would be minimized.

    He would actually have been more challenged if he changed the tactic to a completely new formation + instructions, signed many players and tried to succeed using one tactic for the most part, just like I do. He ran his test save in "noob mode" and therefore had massive success since he as a veteran would know how to adjust the arguably good standard tactic to any situation in the game, unlike the "noobs" which that type of gameplay is designed for.

    This is not to say that FM12 is not too easy, though.
    That would be interesting if it wasn't for the fact that...

    I used default tactics and shouts in both 11 and 12, and like I said the challenge is like chalk and cheese so no one can say I've "learned how to beat the ME in this game thanks to my time playing FM11"
    And since the ME hasn't changed, it must be something occuring prior to match build up. Morale having too big an impact, perhaps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tut View Post
    Avoiding some key options to play challenging game make no sense! I suppose SI is working on this problem, because it exist for sure. Hopefully they release an AI fix soon. The AI level of FM11 was pretty good..just take it from there


    i do not think that FM 11's AI level was better either.. AI's ability to read matches, to to train players,
    and building challenging squads shuld be the focal point of SI today and tomorrow; rather than making some make-up on the user interface which only makes a new game differ with its external view..

    I also think they're aware of this problems but they doesn't want to make a near perfect game becouse of financial strategies.. using that method , which consists of promising users that they will improve the game, SI hope to make even higher profit in next years versions..

    Next year this time we will complain about another deficiency of game which is agian lefted over on purpose..
    They will always make 3* or maybe 4* games .. not a near perfect 5* games IMO..

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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    SI is aiming to make a REALISTIC game, difficulty levels make it UNREALISTIC be it harder or easier but still unrealistic. So they won't add difficulty levels. Jesus, is it too ahrd to understand that adding different difficulty levels is against SI's realism policy?
    I agree, that's the consensus about difficulty levels for years. But there are options that where added in the past like "attribute masking" that has an influence on the overall difficulty. The problem is that all of those who are demanding difficulty levels don't provide ideas that could be added as an option to the game at the same level - which means still one match engine, one AI, one transfer market, but with additions for those who prefer a even more realistic game play.

    Adding real difficulty levels would increase the chance of new bugs and developing and testing would need a lot more time and man-power. I don't think that SI have the resources for that. But some new additional options which does not change the game in general could be something for FM2013.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egesagin View Post
    SI is aiming to make a REALISTIC game, difficulty levels make it UNREALISTIC be it harder or easier but still unrealistic. So they won't add difficulty levels. Jesus, is it too ahrd to understand that adding different difficulty levels is against SI's realism policy?
    If its realistic game then dumb people would not have success in winning C. League or premiership, even with Man. Utd., Liverpool etc.. ANd finally, realism policy is BIG LOL.

    egesagin, i can see you are really tryin to be smart, so tell me simple answer... Do you think low IQ people play this game ? Yes or no ? Ill answer you, because i think you know the answer. YES! Like every other popular game. And they are winning, winning BIG time. Now is that realism policy? Big no and LOL.

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    I'm impressed!
    It's taken eight pages before we got a conspiracy theory

    Either this thread gets back (more or less) on topic and the bickering stops or it gets closed.

    Referring to post 789 in case anybody is confused.

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    Running in circles will always end in conspiracy theories - or religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post
    About the tactics issue. I wonder if it would be possible for the AI to learn off the human player. For example say you design a tactic that brings you great success with a releativey average, or even poor team [we're assuming this for FM20 when SI have ironed out all the other things that make it easy to win games ;)]. So everytime you win with this tactic, it gains in reputation. Eventually a reputation threashold is reached and AI managers (give them an "open to new tactical theories" attribute) and some will then adopt that tactic and build their teams around it accordingly. This happens in real life when someone comes up with a new system, its often adopted by clubs within a year or two if it proves successful.

    The AI would learn from the human player. It could also work with training schedules too. If you create one that has great success at developing players, expect the AI to one day copy it.

    Again, something for SI to mull over for FM2020
    That could open a can of worms because it would require the AI to have access to human tactics. This is borderline cheating though, as human users cannot see AI tactics thus it's giving it an (unfair) advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    If its realistic game then dumb people would not have success in winning C. League or premiership, even with Man. Utd., Liverpool etc.. ANd finally, realism policy is BIG LOL.

    egesagin, i can see you are really tryin to be smart, so tell me simple answer... Do you think low IQ people play this game ? Yes or no ? Ill answer you, because i think you know the answer. YES! Like every other popular game. And they are winning, winning BIG time. Now is that realism policy? Big no and LOL.
    You are partly right, but just read the post by KUBI above yours and you'll understand my point of view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    milnerpoint- o come on, dont be forum troll. i said correct, they won 4 Scottish League Premier division. i just wrote titles and i ment Scottish League Premier d. We in Croatia dont count runners up as something important. Nice collection of trophies btw. Wish you club all the best in the future.
    Im not trolling you mate, i misunderstood your point and i apologies for that.
    I do see your point, but you have to understand a few things, first off when SAF took over Aberdeen, football was a very different game especially up here, money was not one of the biggest and most important factors, now a days things are much different, even the great man himself has said he would achieve half of what he did if he took over the club now, its almost impossible to replicate what he achieved in a real life scenario. Secondly as you have pointed out, none of us have the skill of SAF or any of the big managers, if we did, we wouldnt be playing FM. There has to be a level of "game" built into FM to make it commercially viable, otherwise there would be no Defuge's challenge, no FM stories of people taking conference teams to European success in 20 seasons, no one at all would win anything in Europe with Scottish teams, yes the game would prob sell well the 1st year this level of difficulty was introduced, after then you would almost eliminate every casual FMer, at the end of it all, yes we want a challenge but we want an achievable challenge, at an acceptable level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    I'm impressed!
    It's taken eight pages before we got a conspiracy theory

    Either this thread gets back (more or less) on topic and the bickering stops or it gets closed.

    Referring to post 789 in case anybody is confused.
    Probably better to close it and let it drift down the table to relegation oblivion to be honest. Its served its purpose in highlighting a potential problem, and at least 1 SI guy cares enough to respond and talk to us about it. So we know they're aware now. Its just going in circles.

    Let it die a peaceful death


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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Im not trolling you mate, i misunderstood your point and i apologies for that.
    I do see your point, but you have to understand a few things, first off when SAF took over Aberdeen, football was a very different game especially up here, money was not one of the biggest and most important factors, now a days things are much different, even the great man himself has said he would achieve half of what he did if he took over the club now, its almost impossible to replicate what he achieved in a real life scenario. Secondly as you have pointed out, none of us have the skill of SAF or any of the big managers, if we did, we wouldnt be playing FM. There has to be a level of "game" built into FM to make it commercially viable, otherwise there would be no Defuge's challenge, no FM stories of people taking conference teams to European success in 20 seasons, no one at all would win anything in Europe with Scottish teams, yes the game would prob sell well the 1st year this level of difficulty was introduced, after then you would almost eliminate every casual FMer, at the end of it all, yes we want a challenge but we want an achievable challenge, at an acceptable level.
    Best post in the topic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Äktsjon Männ View Post
    That could open a can of worms because it would require the AI to have access to human tactics. This is borderline cheating though, as human users cannot see AI tactics thus it's giving it an (unfair) advantage.
    Yes but we have lots of advantages over the AI. So it evens out. ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Im not trolling you mate, i misunderstood your point and i apologies for that.
    I do see your point, but you have to understand a few things, first off when SAF took over Aberdeen, football was a very different game especially up here, money was not one of the biggest and most important factors, now a days things are much different, even the great man himself has said he would achieve half of what he did if he took over the club now, its almost impossible to replicate what he achieved in a real life scenario. Secondly as you have pointed out, none of us have the skill of SAF or any of the big managers, if we did, we wouldnt be playing FM. There has to be a level of "game" built into FM to make it commercially viable, otherwise there would be no Defuge's challenge, no FM stories of people taking conference teams to European success in 20 seasons, no one at all would win anything in Europe with Scottish teams, yes the game would prob sell well the 1st year this level of difficulty was introduced, after then you would almost eliminate every casual FMer, at the end of it all, yes we want a challenge but we want an achievable challenge, at an acceptable level.
    That's why as Erimus1876 pointed out, we are advocating more advanced options in the editor to make the game as challenging or easy as we want. That way SI won't be required to make any drastic changes in the game.

    SI - take the game in the direction you want but give us the ability to mod the game and everyone will be happy.

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