The game is too easy.
The difficulty is about right.
The game is too hard.
Therefore, my only "conspiracy theory" is that perhaps SI want the game to be all things to all people. Easy to play for the younger players but looking the part for more experienced players. The problem is that looking the part is not sufficient. An old Glasgow saying of "mutton dressed as lamb" comes to mind.;)
Thank for your anwser
I think AI learns sometimes your tactic (for example, in quarter finals second lag, Valencia use a very high pressing because my goalkeeper usually pass shortly to my defenders, i was forced to use long passes, I was very surprised by that, during many times i never have problems with that)
I remember studying the coaches of FM 2007, this was my theory :
Current Ability (200) coach's overall average
Potential Ability (200) maximum overall average that can be achieved by the coach
Current Reputation (200)
Home Reputation (200) it must always be bigger than the world reputation
World reputation (200)
Man Management (100) ability to manage a group correctly with status squad
Motivating (100) ability to ensure that the players give one's best, ability to use moral and motivation function before, during and after a game.
Determination (100) ability to be regular in his effectiveness
Tactical Knowledge (100) ability to make the good decision (similar to decision attribute for players) like choose offside or not, target man, when must use time wasting, etc.
Flexibility (20) tendancy to change tactic, tendancy to change his tendancies to adapt his tactic to his squad
Level of Discipline (20) ability to change a status squad player without he becomes angry
Immixtion (20) ability to ???
Mind Games, psychology (20) ability to use the criticism of players function
Sitting back (20) tendancy to be patient and change tactic in real time, more the rating is high, more he gives orders and change his tactic during a game.
Patience (20) tendancy to change the status squad of a player. More his rating is poor, more he will change the status squad of his players.
Resources (20) ability to keep influence on his players in time. More his rating is high, more he will stay longer in his club.
Squad Building :
Buying Players (20) ability to build a balanced squad
Judging Player Ability (20) ability to evaluate the current ability rating.
Judging Player Potential (20) ability to evaluate the potential ability rating.
Business sense (20) tendancy to spend a lot of money without taking into account tendancies of the market (if the rating is unless 10) or negociate the best price as possible (if the rating is more than 10)
Use of squad :
Squad Rotation (20) tendancy to change players each match
Use of subs (20) tendancy ?
Working with Youngsters (20) tendancy to use young players even if they're currently poor
Hardness of training (workload) (20) tendancy to increase the intensity of the training (more it's high, more his players will be injured)
Technique (20) tendancy to make training more technical (+10) or more physical (-10)
field players (100) ???
goalkeepers (100) ???
Coaching Mental (20) ability
Coaching Tactical (20) ability
Coaching Attacking (20) ability
Coaching Defending (20) ability
Coaching Fitness (20) ability
Coaching Technical (20) ability
Kine (20) ability
Tactic (/20) :
Attacking (mentality in FM) tendancy to take offensives risks (+10) or choose defensive mentality (-10)
Free roles (Creative freedom) tendancy to give freedom to his players
Directness (passing style) tendancy to make long passes for a more direct football (+10) or little passes for keep possession (-10)
Tempo (tempo) tendancy to take a low tempo (-10) or quick tempo (+10)
Widht (width) tendancy to use the wings (+10) or use a little space (-10)
Marking : tendancy to chose an individual marking.(-10 means zonal marking, +10 individual marking)
Pressing (20) tendancy to use pressing
Depth (20) tendancy
Offside (defensive line) tendancy to play high (+10) or deep (-10)
Use of Playmaker (20) tendancy to use a playmaker
Flamboyancy (20) tendancy to take risks even if he leads he score ???
Conclusion for some AI coaches during a party :
José Mourinho (Chelsea)
Mentality (normal) +3
Creative Freedom (high) +4
Passing style (normal) 0
Tempo (normal) 0
Width (very large) +9
Pressing (high) +7
Marking (individual) +1
Offside (no) +2
Depth (counter attack) +7
Use of playmaker (yes) +7
Rafa Benitez (Barcelona)
Mentality (normal) 0
Creative Freedom (rarely) -3
Passing style (normal) +1
Tempo (normal) +3
Width (large) +5
Pressing (low) -1
Marking (zonal marking) -7
Play offside (no) -5
Depth (counter attack) +7
Use of playmaker (yes) +8
Franck Rijkaard (Valencia)
Mentality (offensive) +6
Creative Freedom (high) +6
Passing style (short) -5
Tempo (quick) +4
Width (large) +8
Pressing (high) +5
Marking (zonal marking) -4
Play offside (no) -1
Depth (normal) -1
Use of playmaker (yes) +7
Fatih Terim (Inter)
Mentality (offensive) +7
Creative Freedom (high) +4
Passing style (direct) +5
Tempo (normal) -2
Width (large) -1
Pressing (very high) +9
Marking (zonal marking) 10
Play offside (no) -1
Depth (possession) -4
Use of playmaker (yes) +10
Javier Aguirre (Fiorentina)
Mentality (normal) +1
Creative Freedom (often) +5
Passing style (normal) +4
Tempo (normal) +3
Width (close) -7
Pressing (normal) -1
Marking (Marking individual) +6
Play offside (no) 0
Depth (counter attack) +7
Use of playmaker (yes) +4
Felix Magath (Manchester Utd)
Mentality (offensive) +5
Creative Freedom (normal) +2
Passing style (normal) +3
Tempo (quick) +5
Width (close) -7
Pressing (high) +6
Marking (zonal marking) -2
Play offside (no) -2
Depth (normal) +1
Use of playmaker (yes) +4
Sinisa Mihajlovic (Werder Bremen)
Mentality (normal) -3
Creative Freedom (high) +5
Passing style (normal) +2
Tempo (quick) +6
Width (close) -3
Pressing (bas) -4
Marking (Marking indiv) +2
Play offside (no) -3
Depth (counter attack) +5
Use of playmaker (yes) +5
But I never tested serioulsy like you, maybe i was totally wrong
Last edited by speedas; 04-11-2011 at 16:21.
It was always possible to play the game "the easy way". The backbone of the game did not change drastically over the years, experienced players will have an advantage. But people are mixing two different things into this thread:
FM in general is to easy AND FM2012 is specifically to easy.
The first can't be changed in a patch, it would need an overhaul of the game, the second one could be an issue that could be fixed.
Speedas - wow! You need to get out more!
1) FM is too easy in general
2) FM12 specifically is made easier than FM11 and before
There has always been a case for 1), this is always raised. I dont think there is a specific case for 2)
But the first issue isnt one that can be fixed with a click of the finger.
In the past I have found FM to be just about right in terms of difficulty/challenge/fun mix.
This year is different in the sense that I don't need to input much (if anything) into the game in order to have a successful team.
Perhaps there is an overall issue to be looked at in terms of the series, but this is the first time I have experienced it to such an extent.
Agreed - a change won't be possible overnight, but it does need looking at by those at SI.
Please, dont read my posts, because im not so good in english, maybe its hard for your brain. I wish i can tell you in my language in personal what i think about your posts and what i think about people who dont think with their heads.
Now tell me this, you was looking my threads, there are 4 or 5of them. In 2 threads i was really happy and i was telling how FM is great and what things can change to make it even better. But you pull out just one thread where i said that its not normal that defender scores 20 goals per season( and i was right). So please tell me, whats your reasons to make me look bad?
If you missed point of this thread, its Q about is this game easy or not. Its not some personal arguing. If you have something against me, write me private m. And i can tell you there what i think about you 2.
Last edited by Matej; 04-11-2011 at 16:08.
It has exacerbated the perspective that the AI hasnt been improving at the same rate at other parts of the game. For some (i include myself in this) it has always been the case, for other this (perhaps like you) it has been made more obvious. This is just my view though
But we definitely agree it must be looked at for the game to progress, and I'm sure it is.
Agreement reached in this thread - that must be a first.;)
When you start a new game, what kind of preparation are you doing? Do you setup tactic, training? Do you hire your own staff go with the staff already at the club? Did you arrange additional friendly matches? In all of those things could be something that makes FM2012 easier for you than FM2011 was.
I will always have my tactic and training. Ill buy best players i can find. Ill give my best to win the game with no cheats. Ill always play with what games offers me. But that doesnt mean it must be so easy.
In saying that, I'm off to conduct some tests!!!
I voted "about right" as I can't say the game is easy in the half season I played so far. Although I get the feeling FM in general (not just FM12) might need a slight increase in difficulty. I find that attracting above average players for the league you're in is quite easy in the first season. As a result the game got very easy in the second season once you had your above average team together, and promotion was very much on the cards allthough pre-season odds expected a relegation struggle. For one, I've never once been sacked due to bad results (only when I applied to other jobs too often) and have never been relegated (only when I stepped in when a team was heading for relegation already).
The lack of difficulty bothers me less than the lack of interest from clubs with slightly higher, similar or lower reputation than the club with which one is reasonably successfull. In 16 seasons of FM11 I've never once been approached by a club spontaneously, only by applying or showing interest in jobs did I get job-offers. I hope this is works out better in FM12. When I'm overachieving with a norwegian 3rd level club I'd expect interest from other clubs of similar or slightly higher stature, like swedish or danish 3rd or second level clubs. Note: interest from ambitious clubs with lower rep would be realistic also. Take the extreme example of Notts County signing Sven Goran Ericsson a couple of years ago. I've never once been approached by a lower rep club I didnt apply to as long as I play FM, which goes back to the CM-days.
Last edited by ommerson; 07-11-2011 at 09:56.
Can we stop the backbiting and can we stop quoting numbers as proof of something when at best they're an unreliable indicator and at worst are plain fiction.
If I may, I know you can't draw conclusions on the poll, but there are two things that are striking:
1: the procentage numbers have been stagnate for a number of days now
2: the gap between easy and hard procentage is quite large
Anyway, this isn't going to be controversial so I'm not expecting much of a response to my post, but I'd just like to contribute by saying how much I enjoy FM every year, despite not being that successful unless I manage a pretty good team. I always try and be successful managing Wolves but struggle each year, and often give up trying! This year, I have just finished my first season and finished 14th and reached the League Cup semi-final... the most successful season I've had with Wolves in many years.
I wouldn't say this version is 'too easy' (but it may be too early for me to say). I am just happy that the tactics, press conferences and team talks I used didn't ruin team morale and performance (despite the decisions I made appearing to be obvious). I feel that this in itself is a step in the right direction.
Am i the only one that actually find FM2012 harder than FM2011?
I play CM/FM since 1994, and this is the harder FM that i ever play!
Im playing with Benfica, as i always play in every FM, and with the same tactic i create last year for FM2011.
Last year, with this tactic i won every portuguese league and 8 champions league in a 11 year save. This year i'm struggling to win and performe well in the portuguese league, and in my last champions league game lost 5-0 away at Real Madrid.
So, for me, this FM is harder! The other option is that i've gonna stupid since last year!
I think the consensus is that there might be certain circumstances when the game is remarkably easy from the outset, it's certainly not a case of everybody finding it easier.
That possibility is being investigated.
I personally do not believe in the bold bit - this forum is full of SI defenders and so is this thread. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone signs up on this forum to complain.
Sure, the OP hasn't approached it from a way that is mathematically optimal from a study design perspective, but then again, it's not like it is easy to do so anyway, partly down to the fact that the main blocking factor is the fact that it is restricted to this forum.
I personally don't see anything terribly wrong with the OP's statement - he presents observation 1, and observation 2, and asks people to vote away.
SI aren't going to commission a proper survey for this. We simply have to do with what we have. A volunteering survey has its flaws, but do you have a better idea?
Volunteering surveys do have their uses in the sense that they are useful for gathering information and they are quick-and-dirty to perform. They are not completely discredited because they suffer from one form of selection bias, otherwise stratified random surveys would be discredited too.
This poll isn't aiming for public acceptance - it's here to roughly gauge a community and to point out a possible perceived issue in the software. I think it has succeeded in showing that a possibly-vocal portion of the customer base finds the game easy and in the absence of any further information a rough 30% seems like a rough ballpark figure.
In addition, the same reasoning could be applied to a theoretical poll of the following:
Is <Feature X> boring? (500 voters)
Claiming self-selection bias on this poll would look fairly silly. Sure, it might not be the greatest scientific survey of the century, but it quite easily gets the point across to SI.
The question doesn't aim to show that the proportion of "too easy" is greater than "too hard" - it aims to show to SI that there is a perceived "easiness" issue with the game.
The question is whether this has succeeded or not. I think it has. As a software designer myself, if I saw a poll (even if badly-designed) like this, I would figure out how to fix this problem.
There is no way SI are going to commission a formal survey for this or indeed, for many things - arguably, it is going to be impossible to get a proper survey done. As a result, these polls are going to be the best we have got.
The OP's post is reasonable and his question is relatively neutral. The options are unambiguous.
There really is little wrong with such a poll except for the self-selection bias, but then again, it is difficult to see how anyone can make a more robust survey.
In addition, you need to get it out of your head that volunteering samples have no use whatsoever - opportunitistic sampling always has its uses, although it should never be done as the sole method of any sensible survey without a solid justification. Differences in this poll are interpreted in an order of magnitude while in scientific studies a tenth of a percentage can mean a lot.
If we cannot use volunteering samples to gauge the forum's opinion, how can we ever report a bug that suffers from subjectivity to SI?
And yes, Kriss join us m8. i can feel you have undestanding for our problems.
Erimus1876, this looks interesting indeed. I'm going to test out your database now.
Would you consider opening a separate thread for discussing this? I think the discussion could get a bit lost among the comments in this one, and it seems to warrant its own thread.
(My apologies if there's a separate thread already and I've missed it...)
on a very very small scale, i made tactical attribute changes to pep, and barca (to make them more barca-like) and certainly against the AI they have improved and are more barca like (not played against them, so cant comment vs human player). So hopefully his hugely expanded test will do the same
Ok I've moved the data and information to the editors forum and will post updates on there from now on. Thanks for taking the time to test it yourself
Here's the link to the new thread...
I would stress that it's evidently only so in certain circumstances and that could make it easier or harder to pinpoint potential issues.
I won't be joining your cause to make it harder by editing as I play in a way which means it's plenty hard enough for me as it is, but I will watch your progress with interest.
If your project becomes viable perhaps the guy who builds FMRTE could make it a preset in there or something, assuming it does bulk editing.
The difficulty is definitely not right imo. fwiw I haven't read the thread.
For example I've seen a user by the name of Hershie take a small Cyprian side he added into the game finishing top of Champions league groups and beating the likes of Real Madrid just 3 years in and he's admitted the game is little challenge whatsoever to how he wanted, I couldn't believe how he'd been able to get that far so quickly, he would have had little money to work with before he got to the champions league and he's already defeating the likes of Real and going far within the competition, which obviously means more money raking in and the game just becoming a breeze.
I've seen it all over these forums, small teams challenging for big competitions in tiny spaces of time, it should be a challenge to get there, I'm not talking about 15-20 years, it's just when you can take a Championship to Champions League contenders in just a few years you know the game is too easy.
I've noticed it myself in my saves as well and I don't like it.
Last edited by ArsenalFan7; 05-11-2011 at 02:18.
Regarding changing the tendencies of AI managers in the database:
These are tendencies NOT abilities, as I am sure you are aware. Changing them will simply affect the way these managers set up their team, but maybe not as dramatically as you think. Eg depth of 15 doesnt mean they will always set up a depth of 15 tactically, but it does mean it will probably average around that over a season depending on opposition etc.
I cant imagine such changes will affect difficulty unless the changes are making these teams' tactics significantly more of less effective.
Hi Paul, changing the AI managers tactical attributes in the editor is just a short-term solution, because these managers will be replaced evantually by poorer and poorer newgen managers.
Is it possible to improve the newgen staff at least in an upcoming patch?
What about changing a team's 'tactical attributes' Paul? Will this have any significant effect in how they set up?
Not really, no. Their manager decides that. The team tactical attributes are more for who they hire I believe.
Thank you Paul for your answer. Maybe you can inform the persons who are responsible for newgen staff to take a better look at this area of the game?
If its been properly discussed in the bugs forum then they will be aware of it.
It's been discussed a lot in this thread. http://community.sigames.com/showthr...ules-the-world
There were some changes in FM 2011 patch 11.2, but those were the last ones i think.
Can the thread be moved to the bugs forum?
If it's required i will simulate a game 50 years or so in the future, and compare the existing staff with the managers at the beginning of the game, to prove my point.
No probs, I moved it there.
Thanks Paul for helping the community.
btw, is there perhaps any chance that a flaggable hardcore option will be introduced with the first patch ? Maybe as a beta would be great.
I think there will be some tweaking of morale in a forthcoming update ( I hate the word patch I don't think it's relevant any more all software updates itself ) and also managers with low world reputation will find life harder when communicating with bigger name players.
I haven't had the chance to get my teeth into the game yet, but I just wonder how many if the "too easy" brigade have managed to take a Scots Divison 3 team to the Champions League?
hopefully save game compatible too
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
These two screenshots show my total domination with Napoli in the first season. I used tactics with four defenders, MC, ML, MR, AMC, AMC and FC, control, fluid and work the ball into box. I shuffled the team from match to match, sometimes playing with 5-6 newly bought players (which are not world class players btw) and they played like they knew each other for a long time as you can see by the results.
I easily won all of my away matches that are supposed to be hard, like Palermo, Lazio, Fiorentina or whatever, which implies to me that the home ground advantage doesn't even exist, or maybe I'm too blind to notice it.
I want a challenge that suits the team that I choose. Napoli might have a good squad but this is really too easy. I didn't break a sweat to achieve 10 points advantage, in front of great teams like Juve, Inter, Milan... I didn't try to beat them in derbies, but I did so very easily. I used the simple technique called "choose & play".
Now I beg you Sports Interactive, please do something to make the game experience worth the money I paid.
Last edited by Casual; 05-11-2011 at 12:24.
I am breezing through the lower leagues with Bradford, but I expect that I need a few seasons in Premier League to get into Champions League and then win it. If I manage to go straight up and win it first season in PL, then I would have to conclude that the game is too easy.
I did that with Southampton in FM10 but that is two years ago - the AI should have improved enough to keep pace with the human managers in that time. If it hasn't, that isn't good enough.
So far, many aspects of FM has been improved in FM12 and that is good of course. The AI is by far the most important aspect and it seems to have stagnated a bit the last years. It seem to me like the AI managers and board room members aren't using the tools at their (and our) disposal and thus are at a huge disadvantage. My minimum expectation is that the best managers in the real life world are good managers in the game. They are not.
No human manager should be -better- at man management, motivation and player development than Sir Alex Ferguson, and no human manager should be better than Mourinho at tactics. That must be the goal for SI's programmers.
I thought the game was very easy judging by how I was flying through teams with my Serie C2B side.
Then I started a Panathinaikos save, and literally got smashed in the league. I started a new one, and got smashed again (using downloaded tactics)
Very interested in finding out what factors really come into play to decide whether your team performs or not. My players were on high morale.
Whereas with Milazzo, I signed no one, had poor morale, and smashed everyone up to Serie B.
Casual, are you able to upload your save?
i guess i just suck, because i've managed to buy players like neymar, diarra, khedira, and a few other quality players with liverpool and i've won the league once in 5 years.... well i'm in my 5th year now. i might win it this year, as i've got a 6 point lead in the january window. 1 fa cup, 1 champions league. overall yeah, that would be fantastic.. but it's nowhere near the success you guys are gloating about... and i'm not just sitting here hitting continue and and watching tv... just really makes me wonder.... especially with how many people have ticked "The difficulty is about right."
Last edited by jase19; 05-11-2011 at 16:04.
I have downloaded a set of tactics that I used in FM11, will not sign anybody in my first season and see what happens...
Might not get to far through the game this week, but I am interested to see if what you ask is possible.
I have used these tactics before and know how they performed in last years game - and anyway, whatever tactics I use I shouldn't be able to get Clyde into the Champions League at all really should I?
and with clyde, i guess it depends how long you play. in 4-5 years, obviously not. but it is possible to build up a lower league team, people have done it before, in every fm.
in that 2075 thread, the AI got barnet to the premiership... they're predicted to be 24th in L2 in 2011/12 season, and they've been a constant bs/l2 club... so you never know
Last edited by jase19; 05-11-2011 at 16:37.
Agreed - and I am a fully paid up member of the "too easy brigade"!!!
I simply want to see what I can do with very little input into the game other than a set of tactics.
Just won a friendly 2-0!!! Things are looking up...
http://community.sigames.com/showthr...siness-of-FM12) which really do appear to indicate that they do. Worth a look, honestly.
To be honest, I think what Erismus experienced is pure coincidence, nothing more. First time he tried with Barnet, he started the season good, and he kept being good. Then with the modified DB he started a new season, this time he had a bad start, and kept being bad.
Anyway, I'm going back to using the original unedited DB without modified TA's and hope I finally get a save going where the easiness feature/bug/quirk doesn't kick in from the off
Last edited by Erimus1876; 05-11-2011 at 23:28.
The funniest thing I managed to achieve so far was in my (previous) Rangers save, where I played every player out of position and went on a 3 match unbeaten run!
I had Kirk Broadfoot (DR/C) in goal, with my 2nd choice Keeper Neil Alexander at right back, 41 year old David Weir up front and every other player coloured red in the positional ability section.
First game I drew 1-1 with Inverness away, game 2 won 3-2 against Dundee in the Scottish Cup (David Weir scored 2 as a striker and covered the most ground on the pitch at 41 years old!!!), and in the third game I beat Hearts 2-0 (again a brace from David Weir and a man of the match performance as a striker!!!)
At this point I laughed out loud - particularly at David Weir's spectacular 2nd goal in the Hearts match. Anyone who has seen David Weir hit a shot will understand why I laughed!
The funny thing was that after the Hearts match (in the league), I then had them in the following match in the League Cup Final. I played that match using my first eleven all in their correct positions, but only won by a single goal to nil!!!
Conclusion - you can play all players out of position and still win some matches. Quite funny really.
Try it yourselves - play everyone out of position and see what happens. ;)
Deleted the game already or I would be glad to. I will try and repeat a similar feat and post what I achieve! ;)
What is the best way of posting screenshots? I am a screenie virgin!
Morale/form seem to be unfortunately the most effective thing in your matches in my experience. When you have a very high morale, try putting your worst line ups in your team, play your guys out of position, etc., if you play against a team with a low morale, you will still win. The only time you will lose will be when you finally face a team that has a winning streak and high morale just like you. This game is all about long streaks right now. Hopefully what PaulC tweaked will help to cut those streaks shorter and we will have a more realistic game.
If Abysmal is 10 and Superb 100, a win + a successful praise/post-match team talk will give at least +10 "morale points" to a player. Speculating further, 100 morale equals 100% of CA, so OK morale = 50% efficiency, much like condition and match fitness. I really do think that morale is that essential but I expect SI to refute this.
This is of course in layman's terms but what I believe needs to be done is to reduce that +10 "bonus" to +1 instead, for all teams, and the same with "penalties" for losses and other negative experiences. It should be impossible to maintain Very Good and Superb morale for more than a few weeks tops, and those should only be available when the team has won a trophy or crushed a fierce rival or something like that - special events... not by saying "well done lads" or "you have been in good form lately, keep it up!".
But yes, having Superb Morale seems to....
- Render Teamtalks useless - unless you deliberately use them to **** your players off to get a better challenge (but according to SI, TT's have little effect anyway!).
- Negate the need to make your own tacics and devise your own strategies - default ones will destroy the opposition more often or not if morale is high.
- Superb morale with a bunch of crap players predicted to be relegated will see them go on amazing unbeaten runs, and be title challengers if you keep it superb long enough. So why bother with the transfer market?
- And there's pretty much no need to use match prep. if morale is high, its effect again seems negligible.
In all the easy saves I payed I basically skipped all of the above and still massivly overachieved.. because morale was maintained (by long winning streaks, few losses) right from the kick off.
Basically one feature that is too easy to get to its highest state of superb, and keep it there, renders almost every other managerial feature moot in FM12.
I agree that the 'shelf life' of the extremes of morale is too long, and this is being toned down for an update.
I also feel that "settling in" of new players is not so important like before if you bring in 5-6 new faces and try to rush them to play all together in the first 11- you'll end up losing games. The home ground advantage also seems to be trivial and it certainly shouldn't since it's always been one of the most important factors in football.
If you try to tone up these factors along with decreasing the team talk effect, maybe we'll get somewhere...
Unless its already like this, maybe the amount of morale gained from beating a team much worse than yourself should be lowered too. Similarly if you lose 0-4 away to Man City in the cup as a lower league team, it shouldn't destroy morale either since it was expected.
Last edited by Erimus1876; 06-11-2011 at 10:28.
this is not my save.. I saw in other forum but they don't complain.. strange..
I started a new game unemployed with 'automatic' experience, and in November accepted Darlington offer.. I never switch any tactic and now i have 5 wins in 5 games only pressing continue..