View Poll Results: How are you finding the difficulty on FM2012?

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  • The game is too easy.

    533 30.37%
  • The difficulty is about right.

    1,081 61.60%
  • The game is too hard.

    141 8.03%
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Thread: FM2012 difficulty.

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    You see, thats where you and me are diffrent. Ill agree with you that you can say something like that. For you its best FM so far, thats nice. Probably first time in 10 years you won some competition and now you are happy like a child when you give him candy.
    I always start at the very bottom in a custom league where you can't win anything in the first one or two seasons. So please stopp making assumption otherwise I see no point in reading your posts anymore.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    There isnt some grand conspiracy behind it all
    I dont care about conspiracy at all. All i want is game with more challenge. Other games can do it, Football Manager can do it too. But if we dont write about AI problems, things wont change. And i agree that AI isnt unique to FM12. But i remember the days when i got promoted with AS Saint-Étienne and next year i was relegated. It was like 8-10 years ago ( real life). From that version, which was really hard 2 beat, game is getting easier and easier.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    The game isnt any easier than FM11, what im achieving now i could do in FM11, and before that. But it is far more intuitive that FM11, and some of those who couldnt overachieve before, seem to be able to now.

    The AI does need work, right across the board, but it isnt unique to FM12. There isnt some grand conspiracy behind it all
    I don't believe in a grand conspiracy either. I simply feel that SI have slightly taken their collective eyes off the ball. What Erimus1876 said is spot on. Surely in any game you shouldn't be able to continually win games/trophies without requiring some greater level of input from the game player? A game aimed at (very) young children would do that for sure - but something that is claiming in their own marketing to be "immersive" and "realistic" should not be "winnable" in as straightforward a manner as it currently is.
    Therefore, my only "conspiracy theory" is that perhaps SI want the game to be all things to all people. Easy to play for the younger players but looking the part for more experienced players. The problem is that looking the part is not sufficient. An old Glasgow saying of "mutton dressed as lamb" comes to mind.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post
    I'm not sure if they're quantitative numbers, meaning the higher the number the better the team is in that category, or if they instead represent a sliding scale of tendency, with 10 being the middle, and 1 and 20 the far extremes of little tendancy to full tendancy.

    If they're tendancies then it doesn't make much sense since surely its the managers tactical attributes that should dictate how a team plays and there would be no use in having these numbers in game. If they're quantitative numbers then perhaps they're a 'base level' and a managers attributes would then add to them, enhancing them even further? I'm not 100% sure. SI labeling them Tactical Attributes, and not Tactical Tendancies, makes me think they're quantitative and have little to do with AI managers individual tactical attributes except acting as 'enhancers'.

    This post was one of the ones that got me thinking TA's could be one of the causes of the easy games people are experiencing:

    http://community.sigames.com/showthr...onto-something

    Also if they're tendancies and the game *is* tougher with the values I used in my initial test game, that could suggest the match engine is not very good at certain tendancies (styles of play) than it is with others. Not a good sign imho as it should be equally as good at all styles.

    As far as I know they are fixed and do not change once your game starts. However, if they are dynamic and change from season to season this could explain "second season syndrome" were sometimes you have a much tougher 2nd season after dominating your first (I'm not convinced the AI 'learns' your tactic as some people suggest as being the cause of 2nd season syndrome - not convinced at all).

    Thank for your anwser
    I think AI learns sometimes your tactic (for example, in quarter finals second lag, Valencia use a very high pressing because my goalkeeper usually pass shortly to my defenders, i was forced to use long passes, I was very surprised by that, during many times i never have problems with that)



    I remember studying the coaches of FM 2007, this was my theory :


    Current Ability (200) coach's overall average
    Potential Ability (200) maximum overall average that can be achieved by the coach
    Current Reputation (200)
    Home Reputation (200) it must always be bigger than the world reputation
    World reputation (200)


    Management :
    Man Management (100) ability to manage a group correctly with status squad
    Motivating (100) ability to ensure that the players give one's best, ability to use moral and motivation function before, during and after a game.
    Determination (100) ability to be regular in his effectiveness
    Tactical Knowledge (100) ability to make the good decision (similar to decision attribute for players) like choose offside or not, target man, when must use time wasting, etc.
    Flexibility (20) tendancy to change tactic, tendancy to change his tendancies to adapt his tactic to his squad
    Level of Discipline (20) ability to change a status squad player without he becomes angry
    Immixtion (20) ability to ???
    Mind Games, psychology (20) ability to use the criticism of players function

    Sitting back (20) tendancy to be patient and change tactic in real time, more the rating is high, more he gives orders and change his tactic during a game.
    Patience (20) tendancy to change the status squad of a player. More his rating is poor, more he will change the status squad of his players.
    Resources (20) ability to keep influence on his players in time. More his rating is high, more he will stay longer in his club.

    Squad Building :
    Buying Players (20) ability to build a balanced squad
    Judging Player Ability (20) ability to evaluate the current ability rating.
    Judging Player Potential (20) ability to evaluate the potential ability rating.
    Business sense (20) tendancy to spend a lot of money without taking into account tendancies of the market (if the rating is unless 10) or negociate the best price as possible (if the rating is more than 10)

    Use of squad :
    Squad Rotation (20) tendancy to change players each match
    Use of subs (20) tendancy ?
    Working with Youngsters (20) tendancy to use young players even if they're currently poor

    Training :
    Hardness of training (workload) (20) tendancy to increase the intensity of the training (more it's high, more his players will be injured)
    Technique (20) tendancy to make training more technical (+10) or more physical (-10)
    field players (100) ???
    goalkeepers (100) ???
    Coaching Mental (20) ability
    Coaching Tactical (20) ability
    Coaching Attacking (20) ability
    Coaching Defending (20) ability
    Coaching Fitness (20) ability
    Coaching Technical (20) ability
    Kine (20) ability




    Tactic (/20) :
    Attacking (mentality in FM) tendancy to take offensives risks (+10) or choose defensive mentality (-10)
    Free roles (Creative freedom) tendancy to give freedom to his players
    Directness (passing style) tendancy to make long passes for a more direct football (+10) or little passes for keep possession (-10)
    Tempo (tempo) tendancy to take a low tempo (-10) or quick tempo (+10)
    Widht (width) tendancy to use the wings (+10) or use a little space (-10)
    Marking : tendancy to chose an individual marking.(-10 means zonal marking, +10 individual marking)
    Pressing (20) tendancy to use pressing
    Depth (20) tendancy
    Offside (defensive line) tendancy to play high (+10) or deep (-10)
    Use of Playmaker (20) tendancy to use a playmaker
    Flamboyancy (20) tendancy to take risks even if he leads he score ???





    Conclusion for some AI coaches during a party
    :

    José Mourinho (Chelsea)
    Mentality (normal) +3
    Creative Freedom (high) +4
    Passing style (normal) 0
    Tempo (normal) 0
    Width (very large) +9
    Pressing (high) +7

    Marking (individual) +1
    Offside (no) +2
    Depth (counter attack) +7
    Use of playmaker (yes) +7

    Rafa Benitez (Barcelona)
    Mentality (normal) 0
    Creative Freedom (rarely) -3
    Passing style (normal) +1
    Tempo (normal) +3
    Width (large) +5
    Pressing (low) -1

    Marking (zonal marking) -7
    Play offside (no) -5
    Depth (counter attack) +7
    Use of playmaker (yes) +8

    Franck Rijkaard (Valencia)
    Mentality (offensive) +6
    Creative Freedom (high) +6
    Passing style (short) -5
    Tempo (quick) +4
    Width (large) +8
    Pressing (high) +5

    Marking (zonal marking) -4
    Play offside (no) -1
    Depth (normal) -1
    Use of playmaker (yes) +7

    Fatih Terim (Inter)
    Mentality (offensive) +7
    Creative Freedom (high) +4
    Passing style (direct) +5
    Tempo (normal) -2
    Width (large) -1
    Pressing (very high) +9

    Marking (zonal marking) 10
    Play offside (no) -1
    Depth (possession) -4
    Use of playmaker (yes) +10


    Javier Aguirre (Fiorentina)
    Mentality (normal) +1
    Creative Freedom (often) +5
    Passing style (normal) +4
    Tempo (normal) +3
    Width (close) -7
    Pressing (normal) -1

    Marking (Marking individual) +6
    Play offside (no) 0
    Depth (counter attack) +7
    Use of playmaker (yes) +4


    Felix Magath (Manchester Utd)
    Mentality (offensive) +5
    Creative Freedom (normal) +2
    Passing style (normal) +3
    Tempo (quick) +5
    Width (close) -7
    Pressing (high) +6

    Marking (zonal marking) -2
    Play offside (no) -2
    Depth (normal) +1
    Use of playmaker (yes) +4


    Sinisa Mihajlovic (Werder Bremen)
    Mentality (normal) -3
    Creative Freedom (high) +5
    Passing style (normal) +2
    Tempo (quick) +6
    Width (close) -3
    Pressing (bas) -4

    Marking (Marking indiv) +2
    Play offside (no) -3
    Depth (counter attack) +5
    Use of playmaker (yes) +5






    But I never tested serioulsy like you, maybe i was totally wrong
    Last edited by speedas; 04-11-2011 at 15:21.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    The game isnt any easier than FM11, what im achieving now i could do in FM11, and before that. But it is far more intuitive that FM11, and some of those who couldnt overachieve before, seem to be able to now.

    The AI does need work, right across the board, but it isnt unique to FM12. There isnt some grand conspiracy behind it all

    It was always possible to play the game "the easy way". The backbone of the game did not change drastically over the years, experienced players will have an advantage. But people are mixing two different things into this thread:

    FM in general is to easy AND FM2012 is specifically to easy.

    The first can't be changed in a patch, it would need an overhaul of the game, the second one could be an issue that could be fixed.

  6. #306
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    Speedas - wow! You need to get out more!

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatmab123 View Post
    I don't believe in a grand conspiracy either. I simply feel that SI have slightly taken their collective eyes off the ball. What Erimus1876 said is spot on. Surely in any game you shouldn't be able to continually win games/trophies without requiring some greater level of input from the game player? A game aimed at (very) young children would do that for sure - but something that is claiming in their own marketing to be "immersive" and "realistic" should not be "winnable" in as straightforward a manner as it currently is.
    Therefore, my only "conspiracy theory" is that perhaps SI want the game to be all things to all people. Easy to play for the younger players but looking the part for more experienced players. The problem is that looking the part is not sufficient. An old Glasgow saying of "mutton dressed as lamb" comes to mind.
    But as KUBI said, people are confusing different issue:

    1) FM is too easy in general

    2) FM12 specifically is made easier than FM11 and before

    There has always been a case for 1), this is always raised. I dont think there is a specific case for 2)

    But the first issue isnt one that can be fixed with a click of the finger.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatmab123 View Post
    Speedas - wow! You need to get out more!
    Fm is my only passion with football, the only game that I play.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    SeanNUFC, you are right, his posts are great.
    Seriously !! You guys need to get out a bit more

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    But as KUBI said, people are confusing different issue:

    1) FM is too easy in general

    2) FM12 specifically is made easier than FM11 and before

    There has always been a case for 1), this is always raised. I dont think there is a specific case for 2)

    But the first issue isnt one that can be fixed with a click of the finger.
    I take on board what you say but my experience is the opposite way around.
    In the past I have found FM to be just about right in terms of difficulty/challenge/fun mix.
    This year is different in the sense that I don't need to input much (if anything) into the game in order to have a successful team.
    Perhaps there is an overall issue to be looked at in terms of the series, but this is the first time I have experienced it to such an extent.
    Agreed - a change won't be possible overnight, but it does need looking at by those at SI.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by KUBI View Post
    I always start at the very bottom in a custom league where you can't win anything in the first one or two seasons. So please stopp making assumption otherwise I see no point in reading your posts anymore.

    Please, dont read my posts, because im not so good in english, maybe its hard for your brain. I wish i can tell you in my language in personal what i think about your posts and what i think about people who dont think with their heads.

    Now tell me this, you was looking my threads, there are 4 or 5of them. In 2 threads i was really happy and i was telling how FM is great and what things can change to make it even better. But you pull out just one thread where i said that its not normal that defender scores 20 goals per season( and i was right). So please tell me, whats your reasons to make me look bad?

    If you missed point of this thread, its Q about is this game easy or not. Its not some personal arguing. If you have something against me, write me private m. And i can tell you there what i think about you 2.
    Last edited by Matej; 04-11-2011 at 15:08.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedas View Post
    Thank for your anwser
    I think AI learns sometimes your tactic (for example, in quarter finals second lag, Valencia use a very high pressing because my goalkeeper usually pass shortly to my defenders, i was forced to use long passes, I was very surprised by that, during many times i never have problems with that)



    I remember studying the coaches of FM 2007, this was my theory :
    I was going to first try and make all the AI managers excellent by doing what you mentioned in your post - giving them top skills in all the main catergories, but the problem is it would just be a short-term fix since they all retire after a while and are replaced by much poorer newgens. So maybe for a short term game it could work, but for the long term save its a waste of time. Hopefully editing the tactical tendancies/attributes for clubs will be permanent and work for both for short and long-term save players.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatmab123 View Post
    I take on board what you say but my experience is the opposite way around.
    In the past I have found FM to be just about right in terms of difficulty/challenge/fun mix.
    This year is different in the sense that I don't need to input much (if anything) into the game in order to have a successful team.
    Perhaps there is an overall issue to be looked at in terms of the series, but this is the first time I have experienced it to such an extent.
    Agreed - a change won't be possible overnight, but it does need looking at by those at SI.
    Fair enough, this is where i mentioned the increased intuitiveness of FM12. Not for you specifically, but perhaps others.

    It has exacerbated the perspective that the AI hasnt been improving at the same rate at other parts of the game. For some (i include myself in this) it has always been the case, for other this (perhaps like you) it has been made more obvious. This is just my view though

    But we definitely agree it must be looked at for the game to progress, and I'm sure it is.

  14. #314
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    Agreement reached in this thread - that must be a first.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatmab123 View Post
    I take on board what you say but my experience is the opposite way around.
    In the past I have found FM to be just about right in terms of difficulty/challenge/fun mix.
    This year is different in the sense that I don't need to input much (if anything) into the game in order to have a successful team.
    Perhaps there is an overall issue to be looked at in terms of the series, but this is the first time I have experienced it to such an extent.
    Agreed - a change won't be possible overnight, but it does need looking at by those at SI.
    I'm sure they are already looking into it. But what they would need are more detailed input from people like you and not from those who just repeat their opinion all day long.

    When you start a new game, what kind of preparation are you doing? Do you setup tactic, training? Do you hire your own staff go with the staff already at the club? Did you arrange additional friendly matches? In all of those things could be something that makes FM2012 easier for you than FM2011 was.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by KUBI View Post
    I'm sure they are already looking into it. But what they would need are more detailed input from people like you and not from those who just repeat their opinion all day long.

    When you start a new game, what kind of preparation are you doing? Do you setup tactic, training? Do you hire your own staff go with the staff already at the club? Did you arrange additional friendly matches? In all of those things could be something that makes FM2012 easier for you than FM2011 was.
    In the game that I am currently playing, I have signed nobody (players or staff), left friendlies up to my assman to arrange, standard training etc - and yet the game is still the same.
    I am going to experiment a bit with things this weekend to see what happens!

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by KUBI View Post
    I'm sure they are already looking into it. But what they would need are more detailed input from people like you and not from those who just repeat their opinion all day long.

    When you start a new game, what kind of preparation are you doing? Do you setup tactic, training? Do you hire your own staff go with the staff already at the club? Did you arrange additional friendly matches? In all of those things could be something that makes FM2012 easier for you than FM2011 was.
    About what we are talking about? Why he wouldnt setup his tactic, training? Because it would make game easier? People love to setup their tactic and hire good coaches, its part of the game, its not cheat. Even if we make our tactic and scout players, have trainings, it should be harder then now.

    I will always have my tactic and training. Ill buy best players i can find. Ill give my best to win the game with no cheats. Ill always play with what games offers me. But that doesnt mean it must be so easy.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    You have to know that 99% of moderators and SI members voted for "game is just right", because thats their policy.

    They are roughly 2 dozens

    We can therefore say that the real percentage is around 35% because not all of them have voted.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatmab123 View Post
    In the game that I am currently playing, I have signed nobody (players or staff), left friendlies up to my assman to arrange, standard training etc - and yet the game is still the same.
    I am going to experiment a bit with things this weekend to see what happens!
    If there is something that makes it easier, it looks that it is not directly connected with what human managers are doing, it seems to be something that affects the AI teams right from the start. Maybe it's worth to make some test by starting with two different human managers in one game. One doing nothing and the other doing his job and see if that makes any difference?

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by KUBI View Post
    If there is something that makes it easier, it looks that it is not directly connected with what human managers are doing, it seems to be something that affects the AI teams right from the start. Maybe it's worth to make some test by starting with two different human managers in one game. One doing nothing and the other doing his job and see if that makes any difference?
    Possibly, although it would be nice if someone from SI would acknowledge the issue rather than leaving stuff like this up to the customers and making little or no comment. After all, I bought a game to play it not to conduct tests on it.
    Rant over!
    In saying that, I'm off to conduct some tests!!!

  21. #321
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    I voted "about right" as I can't say the game is easy in the half season I played so far. Although I get the feeling FM in general (not just FM12) might need a slight increase in difficulty. I find that attracting above average players for the league you're in is quite easy in the first season. As a result the game got very easy in the second season once you had your above average team together, and promotion was very much on the cards allthough pre-season odds expected a relegation struggle. For one, I've never once been sacked due to bad results (only when I applied to other jobs too often) and have never been relegated (only when I stepped in when a team was heading for relegation already).

    The lack of difficulty bothers me less than the lack of interest from clubs with slightly higher, similar or lower reputation than the club with which one is reasonably successfull. In 16 seasons of FM11 I've never once been approached by a club spontaneously, only by applying or showing interest in jobs did I get job-offers. I hope this is works out better in FM12. When I'm overachieving with a norwegian 3rd level club I'd expect interest from other clubs of similar or slightly higher stature, like swedish or danish 3rd or second level clubs. Note: interest from ambitious clubs with lower rep would be realistic also. Take the extreme example of Notts County signing Sven Goran Ericsson a couple of years ago. I've never once been approached by a lower rep club I didnt apply to as long as I play FM, which goes back to the CM-days.
    Last edited by ommerson; 07-11-2011 at 08:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grep View Post
    They are roughly 2 dozens

    We can therefore say that the real percentage is around 35% because not all of them have voted.
    Stop making up numbers off the top of your head, most Mods don't vote in any polls, I certainly don't, this one included.

  23. #323
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    Can we stop the backbiting and can we stop quoting numbers as proof of something when at best they're an unreliable indicator and at worst are plain fiction.

  24. #324
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    If I may, I know you can't draw conclusions on the poll, but there are two things that are striking:

    1: the procentage numbers have been stagnate for a number of days now

    2: the gap between easy and hard procentage is quite large

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatmab123 View Post
    I take on board what you say but my experience is the opposite way around.
    In the past I have found FM to be just about right in terms of difficulty/challenge/fun mix.
    This year is different in the sense that I don't need to input much (if anything) into the game in order to have a successful team.
    Perhaps there is an overall issue to be looked at in terms of the series, but this is the first time I have experienced it to such an extent.
    Reading this whole thread (trying to separate the useful discussions from the silly arguments long the way), I'm relieved to see someone else in a similar position to myself. On these forums you rarely find anyone who doesn't class themselves as world-beaters of some sort. On that note, I often think it would be very interesting to see how everyone performs if they started a large network game with each other.

    Anyway, this isn't going to be controversial so I'm not expecting much of a response to my post, but I'd just like to contribute by saying how much I enjoy FM every year, despite not being that successful unless I manage a pretty good team. I always try and be successful managing Wolves but struggle each year, and often give up trying! This year, I have just finished my first season and finished 14th and reached the League Cup semi-final... the most successful season I've had with Wolves in many years.

    I wouldn't say this version is 'too easy' (but it may be too early for me to say). I am just happy that the tactics, press conferences and team talks I used didn't ruin team morale and performance (despite the decisions I made appearing to be obvious). I feel that this in itself is a step in the right direction.

  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    Stop making up numbers off the top of your head, most Mods don't vote in any polls, I certainly don't, this one included.
    Forum guys are intelligent enough to do not get influenced by me or whomever speaks about numbers.

    If I have broken the forum rules please just assign me an infraction but please do not censure my opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grep View Post
    Forum guys are intelligent enough to do not get influenced by me or whomever speaks about numbers.

    If I have broken the forum rules please just assign me an infraction but please do not censure my opinions.
    That's not an opinion it's a number pulled from the air to infer the Mods all voted in an attempt to sway the poll if we wanted to do that there are over 200 SI staff and several thousand Sega staff we could get to vote.

  28. #328
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    Am i the only one that actually find FM2012 harder than FM2011?
    I play CM/FM since 1994, and this is the harder FM that i ever play!
    Im playing with Benfica, as i always play in every FM, and with the same tactic i create last year for FM2011.

    Last year, with this tactic i won every portuguese league and 8 champions league in a 11 year save. This year i'm struggling to win and performe well in the portuguese league, and in my last champions league game lost 5-0 away at Real Madrid.

    So, for me, this FM is harder! The other option is that i've gonna stupid since last year!

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    I think the consensus is that there might be certain circumstances when the game is remarkably easy from the outset, it's certainly not a case of everybody finding it easier.

    That possibility is being investigated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0gris View Post
    The problem with volunteering samples is exactly that; People choose whether to vote or not. As in the vocal part of the group(Whether it be the minority or the majority). The method has a massive flaw. Namely, the only people who will vote are the people who are problems with the difficulty in the first place. As in the people who think the game is too easy. Those who find it too hard or decently balanced wont post as the entire view of the poll has been skewed horribly. Your intentions are good and solid enough; Something like this would help SI. IF and only IF the poll was balanced however.
    The poll itself is fine - three relatively unambiguous options (I would have preferred 5, however), with an unambiguous question - no frills attached. In addition, the thread's title is unambiguous. The only real way it could be fixed is if it were random or perhaps the choices were numbered (which has its own issues with interpretation). If you are going to fix volunteering samples, it has to be controlled outside of the poll as well.

    I personally do not believe in the bold bit - this forum is full of SI defenders and so is this thread. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone signs up on this forum to complain.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0gris View Post
    The poll seems to be decent, but the whole premise falls apart if you read the OP.
    Hm? Here is the OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkenlights Faxlore View Post
    A lot of people seem to be finding that the game is too easy this year, with human players being able to dominate without much effort (see any number of threads on front page). However, SI are stating that they think the game is well balanced, and some players are saying that they find it challenging. So, here is a quick poll, to get a better an idea of what the consensus really is on this.

    Vote away...
    Certainly, the OP isn't overseeing a rigorous scientific study, but I don't think this OP is trying to find a flaw. He has simply observed the number of "too easy" threads and the fact that SI have stated there isn't a problem.

    Sure, the OP hasn't approached it from a way that is mathematically optimal from a study design perspective, but then again, it's not like it is easy to do so anyway, partly down to the fact that the main blocking factor is the fact that it is restricted to this forum.

    I personally don't see anything terribly wrong with the OP's statement - he presents observation 1, and observation 2, and asks people to vote away.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0gris View Post
    It's not what people think about the game, thats not what the OP wants to hear, he's not here to research what people think about the game. He wants people to simply say. Yes the game is too hard, no the game is too easy. He provides ample "evidence" the game is too easy, but completely ignores the other side. His intentions might have been good but the excecution of the whole process was cocked up so hard that the whole topic turned into a "+1" fest where people say yeah the game is too hard and high five each other. You're not getting any accurate results from the topic, all you are getting is the vocal group telling each other they're right, and the people who find the game hard/balanced in terms of difficulty providing their opinions and leaving it at that. Theres a reason publically accepted polls are done by actual marketing and research groups; They know what they're doing. This topic does not, it was biased from the start completely discrediting any value the results might of have had.
    This really smells of ad hominem more than anything. Certainly, the OP has been vocal against a perceived "ease" of the game, but why are you assuming bad faith on his behalf that this thread has an agenda? For all the OP's beliefs against the perceived "ease", I think the OP has done a good job of keeping that personal belief out of this thread (the OP has posted once, as the thread starter in this thread).

    SI aren't going to commission a proper survey for this. We simply have to do with what we have. A volunteering survey has its flaws, but do you have a better idea?

    Volunteering surveys do have their uses in the sense that they are useful for gathering information and they are quick-and-dirty to perform. They are not completely discredited because they suffer from one form of selection bias, otherwise stratified random surveys would be discredited too.

    This poll isn't aiming for public acceptance - it's here to roughly gauge a community and to point out a possible perceived issue in the software. I think it has succeeded in showing that a possibly-vocal portion of the customer base finds the game easy and in the absence of any further information a rough 30% seems like a rough ballpark figure.

    In addition, the same reasoning could be applied to a theoretical poll of the following:

    Is boring? (500 voters)
    Yes (99%)
    No (1%)



    Claiming self-selection bias on this poll would look fairly silly. Sure, it might not be the greatest scientific survey of the century, but it quite easily gets the point across to SI.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0gris View Post
    You have a point, even random selection will have a representative bias, I'm not arguing with that; Any sort of poll you do is not going to be 100% accurate even if you poll every person on the planet as there is going to be some sort of bias or another. The problem here is that this thread takes bias and runs with it to the other side of the solar system.

    I have nothing against you, i want this poll to be succesful and actually show results but the problem is that... it simply doesn't. It's two groups arguing amongst themselves and even if people in the same group have differing opinions they will concede to the general opinion of the group, if you hate the difficulty but think that it's not that bad? Well you still better vote for the game being too easy or you might just be ostracized by the same people you're agreeing with, albeit with a different "intensity"(Hello political parties). It's people who think the game is too easy vs everyone else. Instead of everyone being a neutral party and voting what they think for. THAT is what is the major problem here, it's not a poll. It's a war of ideologies.
    I really think you need to reread the OP.

    The question doesn't aim to show that the proportion of "too easy" is greater than "too hard" - it aims to show to SI that there is a perceived "easiness" issue with the game.

    The question is whether this has succeeded or not. I think it has. As a software designer myself, if I saw a poll (even if badly-designed) like this, I would figure out how to fix this problem.

    There is no way SI are going to commission a formal survey for this or indeed, for many things - arguably, it is going to be impossible to get a proper survey done. As a result, these polls are going to be the best we have got.

    The OP's post is reasonable and his question is relatively neutral. The options are unambiguous.

    There really is little wrong with such a poll except for the self-selection bias, but then again, it is difficult to see how anyone can make a more robust survey.

    In addition, you need to get it out of your head that volunteering samples have no use whatsoever - opportunitistic sampling always has its uses, although it should never be done as the sole method of any sensible survey without a solid justification. Differences in this poll are interpreted in an order of magnitude while in scientific studies a tenth of a percentage can mean a lot.

    If we cannot use volunteering samples to gauge the forum's opinion, how can we ever report a bug that suffers from subjectivity to SI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    That's not an opinion it's a number pulled from the air to infer the Mods all voted in an attempt to sway the poll if we wanted to do that there are over 200 SI staff and several thousand Sega staff we could get to vote.
    Kriss, you are a nice guy, I am happy we can chat this way.

    Now a proposal Kriss, why don't you join our cause ? A moderator acting with us would be helpful to the cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grep View Post
    Kriss, you are a nice guy, I am happy we can chat this way.

    Now a proposal Kriss, why don't you join our cause ? A moderator acting with us would be helpful to the cause.
    Yes, join the dark side. JOIN US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    Am i the only one that actually find FM2012 harder than FM2011?
    I play CM/FM since 1994, and this is the harder FM that i ever play!
    Im playing with Benfica, as i always play in every FM, and with the same tactic i create last year for FM2011.

    Last year, with this tactic i won every portuguese league and 8 champions league in a 11 year save. This year i'm struggling to win and performe well in the portuguese league, and in my last champions league game lost 5-0 away at Real Madrid.

    So, for me, this FM is harder! The other option is that i've gonna stupid since last year!
    Im glad that you find FM harder this year. If you want easier, just dont rotate players, dont tweak your tactic, dont think too much in general, just click and go to the bright future. i always use my own tactic and its easy. But i heard if you dont do nothing its even better for your team.

    And yes, Kriss join us m8. i can feel you have undestanding for our problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanNUFC View Post
    Yes, join the dark side. JOIN US.
    He is already on the dark side. Deep in the relegation zone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post
    If anyone else wants to test if further the database can be found here...

    http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NZSI3XK7

    To get a true test, you will need to lower the TA's of the team you're going to manager using FMRTE, or you can try it as it stands in the database and see how you get on having TA's the same as all the other teams in your league.

    Erimus1876
    , this looks interesting indeed. I'm going to test out your database now.

    Would you consider opening a separate thread for discussing this? I think the discussion could get a bit lost among the comments in this one, and it seems to warrant its own thread.

    (My apologies if there's a separate thread already and I've missed it...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkenlights Faxlore View Post

    Erimus1876
    ,
    Would you consider opening a separate thread for discussing this? I think the discussion could get a bit lost among the comments in this one, and it seems to warrant its own thread.
    That's probably a good idea as this thread is going in circles for a while now.

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    Is it difficult ??? please don't tell me that i've to play with a lower division team ...




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    Quote Originally Posted by KUBI View Post
    That's probably a good idea as this thread is going in circles for a while now.
    seconded, his early looks seem promising.

    on a very very small scale, i made tactical attribute changes to pep, and barca (to make them more barca-like) and certainly against the AI they have improved and are more barca like (not played against them, so cant comment vs human player). So hopefully his hugely expanded test will do the same

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkenlights Faxlore View Post

    Erimus1876
    , this looks interesting indeed. I'm going to test out your database now.

    Would you consider opening a separate thread for discussing this? I think the discussion could get a bit lost among the comments in this one, and it seems to warrant its own thread.

    (My apologies if there's a separate thread already and I've missed it...)

    Ok I've moved the data and information to the editors forum and will post updates on there from now on. Thanks for taking the time to test it yourself

    Here's the link to the new thread...

    http://community.sigames.com/showthr...siness-of-FM12

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    seconded, his early looks seem promising.

    on a very very small scale, i made tactical attribute changes to pep, and barca (to make them more barca-like) and certainly against the AI they have improved and are more barca like (not played against them, so cant comment vs human player). So hopefully his hugely expanded test will do the same
    I've done the same. Pleased it seems to be working for you! Haven't tested mine yet but encouraged now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grep View Post
    Kriss, you are a nice guy, I am happy we can chat this way.

    Now a proposal Kriss, why don't you join our cause ? A moderator acting with us would be helpful to the cause.
    There isn't a cause this thread achieved its objective which was to get SI to investigate suspicions it was too easy, they're now doing that.

    I would stress that it's evidently only so in certain circumstances and that could make it easier or harder to pinpoint potential issues.

    I won't be joining your cause to make it harder by editing as I play in a way which means it's plenty hard enough for me as it is, but I will watch your progress with interest.

    If your project becomes viable perhaps the guy who builds FMRTE could make it a preset in there or something, assuming it does bulk editing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    There isn't a cause this thread achieved its objective which was to get SI to investigate suspicions it was too easy, they're now doing that.

    I would stress that it's evidently only so in certain circumstances and that could make it easier or harder to pinpoint potential issues.

    I won't be joining your cause to make it harder by editing as I play in a way which means it's plenty hard enough for me as it is, but I will watch your progress with interest.

    If your project becomes viable perhaps the guy who builds FMRTE could make it a preset in there or something, assuming it does bulk editing.
    I'm interested in knowing how it is you play. Do you mind explaining? Thanks.

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    The difficulty is definitely not right imo. fwiw I haven't read the thread.

    For example I've seen a user by the name of Hershie take a small Cyprian side he added into the game finishing top of Champions league groups and beating the likes of Real Madrid just 3 years in and he's admitted the game is little challenge whatsoever to how he wanted, I couldn't believe how he'd been able to get that far so quickly, he would have had little money to work with before he got to the champions league and he's already defeating the likes of Real and going far within the competition, which obviously means more money raking in and the game just becoming a breeze.

    I've seen it all over these forums, small teams challenging for big competitions in tiny spaces of time, it should be a challenge to get there, I'm not talking about 15-20 years, it's just when you can take a Championship to Champions League contenders in just a few years you know the game is too easy.

    I've noticed it myself in my saves as well and I don't like it.
    Last edited by ArsenalFan7; 05-11-2011 at 01:18.

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    Regarding changing the tendencies of AI managers in the database:

    These are tendencies NOT abilities, as I am sure you are aware. Changing them will simply affect the way these managers set up their team, but maybe not as dramatically as you think. Eg depth of 15 doesnt mean they will always set up a depth of 15 tactically, but it does mean it will probably average around that over a season depending on opposition etc.

    I cant imagine such changes will affect difficulty unless the changes are making these teams' tactics significantly more of less effective.

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    Hi Paul, changing the AI managers tactical attributes in the editor is just a short-term solution, because these managers will be replaced evantually by poorer and poorer newgen managers.

    Is it possible to improve the newgen staff at least in an upcoming patch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by andu1 View Post
    Hi Paul, changing the AI managers tactical attributes in the editor is just a short-term solution, because these managers will be replaced evantually by poorer and poorer newgen managers.

    Is it possible to improve the newgen staff at least in an upcoming patch?
    I dont know tbh, its not really my area of the game.

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    What about changing a team's 'tactical attributes' Paul? Will this have any significant effect in how they set up?

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    Not really, no. Their manager decides that. The team tactical attributes are more for who they hire I believe.

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    Thank you Paul for your answer. Maybe you can inform the persons who are responsible for newgen staff to take a better look at this area of the game?

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    If its been properly discussed in the bugs forum then they will be aware of it.

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    It's been discussed a lot in this thread. http://community.sigames.com/showthr...ules-the-world

    There were some changes in FM 2011 patch 11.2, but those were the last ones i think.

    Can the thread be moved to the bugs forum?

    If it's required i will simulate a game 50 years or so in the future, and compare the existing staff with the managers at the beginning of the game, to prove my point.

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    No probs, I moved it there.

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    Thanks Paul for helping the community.


    btw, is there perhaps any chance that a flaggable hardcore option will be introduced with the first patch ? Maybe as a beta would be great.

    Thx

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    I think there will be some tweaking of morale in a forthcoming update ( I hate the word patch I don't think it's relevant any more all software updates itself ) and also managers with low world reputation will find life harder when communicating with bigger name players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    I think there will be some tweaking of morale in a forthcoming update ( I hate the word patch I don't think it's relevant any more all software updates itself ) and also managers with low world reputation will find life harder when communicating with bigger name players.
    It sounds promising, much appreciated.

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    I haven't had the chance to get my teeth into the game yet, but I just wonder how many if the "too easy" brigade have managed to take a Scots Divison 3 team to the Champions League?

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    hopefully save game compatible too

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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_uk View Post
    hopefully save game compatible too
    They always are

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    Uploaded with ImageShack.us





    These two screenshots show my total domination with Napoli in the first season. I used tactics with four defenders, MC, ML, MR, AMC, AMC and FC, control, fluid and work the ball into box. I shuffled the team from match to match, sometimes playing with 5-6 newly bought players (which are not world class players btw) and they played like they knew each other for a long time as you can see by the results.
    I easily won all of my away matches that are supposed to be hard, like Palermo, Lazio, Fiorentina or whatever, which implies to me that the home ground advantage doesn't even exist, or maybe I'm too blind to notice it.

    I want a challenge that suits the team that I choose. Napoli might have a good squad but this is really too easy. I didn't break a sweat to achieve 10 points advantage, in front of great teams like Juve, Inter, Milan... I didn't try to beat them in derbies, but I did so very easily. I used the simple technique called "choose & play".

    Now I beg you Sports Interactive, please do something to make the game experience worth the money I paid.
    Last edited by Casual; 05-11-2011 at 11:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    I think there will be some tweaking of morale in a forthcoming update ( I hate the word patch I don't think it's relevant any more all software updates itself ) and also managers with low world reputation will find life harder when communicating with bigger name players.
    I bet you the value of FM13 there'll be a thread "FM 12 is now too difficult, sort it out SI, you're ruined the fun" as soon as you introduce any changes towards more game difficulty.

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    I am breezing through the lower leagues with Bradford, but I expect that I need a few seasons in Premier League to get into Champions League and then win it. If I manage to go straight up and win it first season in PL, then I would have to conclude that the game is too easy.

    I did that with Southampton in FM10 but that is two years ago - the AI should have improved enough to keep pace with the human managers in that time. If it hasn't, that isn't good enough.

    So far, many aspects of FM has been improved in FM12 and that is good of course. The AI is by far the most important aspect and it seems to have stagnated a bit the last years. It seem to me like the AI managers and board room members aren't using the tools at their (and our) disposal and thus are at a huge disadvantage. My minimum expectation is that the best managers in the real life world are good managers in the game. They are not.

    No human manager should be -better- at man management, motivation and player development than Sir Alex Ferguson, and no human manager should be better than Mourinho at tactics. That must be the goal for SI's programmers.

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    I thought the game was very easy judging by how I was flying through teams with my Serie C2B side.

    Then I started a Panathinaikos save, and literally got smashed in the league. I started a new one, and got smashed again (using downloaded tactics)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candre168 View Post
    I thought the game was very easy judging by how I was flying through teams with my Serie C2B side.

    Then I started a Panathinaikos save, and literally got smashed in the league. I started a new one, and got smashed again (using downloaded tactics)
    That's what it makes that difficult to understand which factors do make the game for some people in some leagues looking that easy, while sometimes the same people are struggling in another league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KUBI View Post
    That's what it makes that difficult to understand which factors do make the game for some people in some leagues looking that easy, while sometimes the same people are struggling in another league.
    But I mean, in previous versions, I'd just sign two good South American wingers with pace + flair and that would destroy the rest of the league in unrealistic manners. Whereas this year, I signed (on both saves) several good players and I was slaughtered. I'd concede two goals a game easily (in Greece...that's saying something) even when using downloaded tactics. Pissed me off to be honest.

    Very interested in finding out what factors really come into play to decide whether your team performs or not. My players were on high morale.

    Whereas with Milazzo, I signed no one, had poor morale, and smashed everyone up to Serie B.

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    Casual, are you able to upload your save?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candre168 View Post
    But I mean, in previous versions, I'd just sign two good South American wingers with pace + flair and that would destroy the rest of the league in unrealistic manners. Whereas this year, I signed (on both saves) several good players and I was slaughtered. I'd concede two goals a game easily (in Greece...that's saying something) even when using downloaded tactics. Pissed me off to be honest.

    Very interested in finding out what factors really come into play to decide whether your team performs or not. My players were on high morale.

    Whereas with Milazzo, I signed no one, had poor morale, and smashed everyone up to Serie B.
    Judging my many posts in this thread, it seems that the less you tinker with tactics, the more successful you'll be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    Casual, are you able to upload your save?
    Here you go Paul :

    http://www.sendspace.com/file/9ub5ke

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    The team tactical attributes are more for who they hire I believe.
    Could you find out for definite if thats the case because some of us have edited team tactical attributes and are seeing an improvement in difficulty. Although its all subjective of course and a million other factors could be the cause!

    Cheers

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    i guess i just suck, because i've managed to buy players like neymar, diarra, khedira, and a few other quality players with liverpool and i've won the league once in 5 years.... well i'm in my 5th year now. i might win it this year, as i've got a 6 point lead in the january window. 1 fa cup, 1 champions league. overall yeah, that would be fantastic.. but it's nowhere near the success you guys are gloating about... and i'm not just sitting here hitting continue and and watching tv... just really makes me wonder.... especially with how many people have ticked "The difficulty is about right."
    Last edited by jase19; 05-11-2011 at 15:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post
    Could you find out for definite if thats the case because some of us have edited team tactical attributes and are seeing an improvement in difficulty. Although its all subjective of course and a million other factors could be the cause!

    Cheers
    I know for sure that changing team tactical settings won't affect difficulty to any noticeable degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jase19 View Post
    i guess i just suck, because i've managed to buy players like neymar, diarra, khedira, shawcross, and a few other quality players with liverpool and i've won the league once in 5 years.... well i'm in my 5th year now. i might win it this year, as i've got a 6 point lead in the january window. 1 fa cup, 1 champions league. overall yeah, that would be fantastic.. but it's nowhere near the success you guys are gloating about... and i'm not just sitting here hitting continue and and watching tv... just really makes me wonder.... especially with how many people have ticked "The difficulty is about right."
    Well, you must know that you are manager in best league in the world. Many great clubs, etc. But if you are manager in lets say Serie A, Bundesliga and other good leagues, you would be first easy in 2 years, whatever club you take. Well, be happy with your results, at least you have some challenge. I didnt play this year in premiership, but in FM 11 i played with EVerton and I won league 5 times in 6 years. With EVerton!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 19052000 View Post
    I haven't had the chance to get my teeth into the game yet, but I just wonder how many if the "too easy" brigade have managed to take a Scots Divison 3 team to the Champions League?
    A good point and a challenge that I am going to try! I have just started a game as Clyde in Scottish Division 3.
    I have downloaded a set of tactics that I used in FM11, will not sign anybody in my first season and see what happens...
    Might not get to far through the game this week, but I am interested to see if what you ask is possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hatmab123 View Post
    A good point and a challenge that I am going to try! I have just started a game as Clyde in Scottish Division 3.
    I have downloaded a set of tactics that I used in FM11, will not sign anybody in my first season and see what happens...
    Might not get to far through the game this week, but I am interested to see if what you ask is possible.
    why not make your own tactics..............

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    Quote Originally Posted by jase19 View Post
    why not make your own tactics..............
    Because I am curious to see if there is any big difference in the performance of the same tactics from FM11 to FM12.
    I have used these tactics before and know how they performed in last years game - and anyway, whatever tactics I use I shouldn't be able to get Clyde into the Champions League at all really should I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hatmab123 View Post
    Because I am curious to see if there is any big difference in the performance of the same tactics from FM11 to FM12.
    I have used these tactics before and know how they performed in last years game - and anyway, whatever tactics I use I shouldn't be able to get Clyde into the Champions League at all really should I?
    ah i see what you're getting at.
    and with clyde, i guess it depends how long you play. in 4-5 years, obviously not. but it is possible to build up a lower league team, people have done it before, in every fm.

    in that 2075 thread, the AI got barnet to the premiership... they're predicted to be 24th in L2 in 2011/12 season, and they've been a constant bs/l2 club... so you never know
    Last edited by jase19; 05-11-2011 at 15:37.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jase19 View Post
    ah i see what you're getting at.
    and with clyde, i guess it depends how long you play. in 4-5 years, obviously not. but it is possible to build up a lower league team, people have done it before, in every fm.

    in that 2075 thread, the AI got barnet to the premiership... they're predicted to be 24th in L2 in 2011/12 season, and they've been a constant bs/l2 club... so you never know
    Small update - first 3 games and lost them all!!! LOL - maybe I am wrong who knows!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hatmab123 View Post
    Small update - first 3 games and lost them all!!! LOL - maybe I am wrong who knows!
    for me the first ones are always hardest... getting used to tactics, match fitness....

    plus everyone of the too easy brigade seems to be saying that the default tactics are a big part of the winning?

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    Agreed - and I am a fully paid up member of the "too easy brigade"!!!
    I simply want to see what I can do with very little input into the game other than a set of tactics.
    Just won a friendly 2-0!!! Things are looking up...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    I know for sure that changing team tactical settings won't affect difficulty to any noticeable degree.
    To be fair, Erimus is conducting some very impressive tests (link above - thread moved to Editors forum: http://community.sigames.com/showthr...siness-of-FM12) which really do appear to indicate that they do. Worth a look, honestly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phnompenhandy View Post
    To be fair, Erimus is conducting some very impressive tests (link above - thread moved to Editors forum: http://community.sigames.com/showthr...siness-of-FM12) which really do appear to indicate that they do. Worth a look, honestly.
    I appreciate he is trying to help but the club tendencies arent used so its moot. Besides, you'd need to run hundreds of seasons each way to get anything statistically meaningful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candre168 View Post
    I thought the game was very easy judging by how I was flying through teams with my Serie C2B side.

    Then I started a Panathinaikos save, and literally got smashed in the league. I started a new one, and got smashed again (using downloaded tactics)
    Another prrof that it is down to morale/form. If you start the season good, it is very easy to continue winning. If you start bad, very hard to recover.

    To be honest, I think what Erismus experienced is pure coincidence, nothing more. First time he tried with Barnet, he started the season good, and he kept being good. Then with the modified DB he started a new season, this time he had a bad start, and kept being bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleventozturk View Post
    Another prrof that it is down to morale/form. If you start the season good, it is very easy to continue winning. If you start bad, very hard to recover.

    To be honest, I think what Erismus experienced is pure coincidence, nothing more. First time he tried with Barnet, he started the season good, and he kept being good. Then with the modified DB he started a new season, this time he had a bad start, and kept being bad.
    Think that one through. WHY did he start well in one and badly in the other? He changed only one key variable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleventozturk View Post
    Another prrof that it is down to morale/form. If you start the season good, it is very easy to continue winning. If you start bad, very hard to recover.

    To be honest, I think what Erismus experienced is pure coincidence, nothing more. First time he tried with Barnet, he started the season good, and he kept being good. Then with the modified DB he started a new season, this time he had a bad start, and kept being bad.
    It wasn't just one game though, all in all I started 5 saves with the normal SI database and pretty much flew up the tables (with poor teams) using the minimum hands on managerial approach. It shouldn't be like that. I then started 4 saves with edited TA's and each one was much more challenging. Yes its probably down to coincidence since what PaulC says it can't be anything to do with TA's how difficult your match is against the AI. The question is, as phnompenhandy mentioned, why are some saves so easy from the off than others, and with clubs that are predicted to be relegation fodder too? Thats what needs to be answered, but I think its an almost impossible task for SI to pinpoint it. Afaik I, and others who are experiencing it, are doing nothing different to any other player whose save IS challenging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post
    Afaik I, and others who are experiencing it, are doing nothing different to any other player whose save IS challenging.
    It could be something you did not think about. When you start a new save there are some variables which could be different. Managers nationality, age, past experience, the club you choose. Such issues are very complicated to debug and test, just as a example, you would have to manage every club in a division with the same manager set-up to have an idea, if there is something wrong in general or just when you are managing some specific clubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KUBI View Post
    It could be something you did not think about. When you start a new save there are some variables which could be different. Managers nationality, age, past experience, the club you choose. Such issues are very complicated to debug and test, just as a example, you would have to manage every club in a division with the same manager set-up to have an idea, if there is something wrong in general or just when you are managing some specific clubs.
    Yes it could be anything. But the big problem that is being over looked is it shouldn't be so easy when all you're doing it picking the starting 11, using a default tactic, and using shouts during a match then going on long unbeaten runs with the worst teams in the league... I should have to devise strategies and tactics, talk to my players, train my players and wheel and deal in the transfer market to get a team like Barnet pushing for promotion. Its like playing Football Spectator and not Football Manager at times. I'm not the only one, there are plenty in this thread who have experienced the exact same thing.

    Anyway, I'm going back to using the original unedited DB without modified TA's and hope I finally get a save going where the easiness feature/bug/quirk doesn't kick in from the off
    Last edited by Erimus1876; 05-11-2011 at 22:28.

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    The funniest thing I managed to achieve so far was in my (previous) Rangers save, where I played every player out of position and went on a 3 match unbeaten run!
    I had Kirk Broadfoot (DR/C) in goal, with my 2nd choice Keeper Neil Alexander at right back, 41 year old David Weir up front and every other player coloured red in the positional ability section.
    First game I drew 1-1 with Inverness away, game 2 won 3-2 against Dundee in the Scottish Cup (David Weir scored 2 as a striker and covered the most ground on the pitch at 41 years old!!!), and in the third game I beat Hearts 2-0 (again a brace from David Weir and a man of the match performance as a striker!!!)
    At this point I laughed out loud - particularly at David Weir's spectacular 2nd goal in the Hearts match. Anyone who has seen David Weir hit a shot will understand why I laughed!
    The funny thing was that after the Hearts match (in the league), I then had them in the following match in the League Cup Final. I played that match using my first eleven all in their correct positions, but only won by a single goal to nil!!!
    Conclusion - you can play all players out of position and still win some matches. Quite funny really.
    Try it yourselves - play everyone out of position and see what happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hatmab123 View Post
    The funniest thing I managed to achieve so far was in my (previous) Rangers save, where I played every player out of position and went on a 3 match unbeaten run!
    I had Kirk Broadfoot (DR/C) in goal, with my 2nd choice Keeper Neil Alexander at right back, 41 year old David Weir up front and every other player coloured red in the positional ability section.
    First game I drew 1-1 with Inverness away, game 2 won 3-2 against Dundee in the Scottish Cup (David Weir scored 2 as a striker and covered the most ground on the pitch at 41 years old!!!), and in the third game I beat Hearts 2-0 (again a brace from David Weir and a man of the match performance as a striker!!!)
    At this point I laughed out loud - particularly at David Weir's spectacular 2nd goal in the Hearts match. Anyone who has seen David Weir hit a shot will understand why I laughed!
    The funny thing was that after the Hearts match (in the league), I then had them in the following match in the League Cup Final. I played that match using my first eleven all in their correct positions, but only won by a single goal to nil!!!
    Conclusion - you can play all players out of position and still win some matches. Quite funny really.
    Try it yourselves - play everyone out of position and see what happens.
    Haha, please post screens

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    Deleted the game already or I would be glad to. I will try and repeat a similar feat and post what I achieve!

    EDIT...
    What is the best way of posting screenshots? I am a screenie virgin!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus1876 View Post
    It wasn't just one game though, all in all I started 5 saves with the normal SI database and pretty much flew up the tables (with poor teams) using the minimum hands on managerial approach. It shouldn't be like that. I then started 4 saves with edited TA's and each one was much more challenging. Yes its probably down to coincidence since what PaulC says it can't be anything to do with TA's how difficult your match is against the AI. The question is, as phnompenhandy mentioned, why are some saves so easy from the off than others, and with clubs that are predicted to be relegation fodder too? Thats what needs to be answered, but I think its an almost impossible task for SI to pinpoint it. Afaik I, and others who are experiencing it, are doing nothing different to any other player whose save IS challenging.
    Very simple. In your very first game the morale is balanced between your team and the opponent. There are many other factors going into ME, and in your first (and maybe only completely fair) match you can always win, draw or lose, right? If you win that game, your get an unrealistic morale boost, you carry it to your second match, and if your second opponent has lost their first game, their morale will be down, and you won't have much dificulty in beating them. So now your morale will be even higher, and it goes on and on. If you lose your first few games, it is a similar (but opposite) story, and this time you really struggle.

    Morale/form seem to be unfortunately the most effective thing in your matches in my experience. When you have a very high morale, try putting your worst line ups in your team, play your guys out of position, etc., if you play against a team with a low morale, you will still win. The only time you will lose will be when you finally face a team that has a winning streak and high morale just like you. This game is all about long streaks right now. Hopefully what PaulC tweaked will help to cut those streaks shorter and we will have a more realistic game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleventozturk View Post
    Very simple. In your very first game the morale is balanced between your team and the opponent. There are many other factors going into ME, and in your first (and maybe only completely fair) match you can always win, draw or lose, right? If you win that game, your get an unrealistic morale boost, you carry it to your second match, and if your second opponent has lost their first game, their morale will be down, and you won't have much dificulty in beating them. So now your morale will be even higher, and it goes on and on. If you lose your first few games, it is a similar (but opposite) story, and this time you really struggle.

    Morale/form seem to be unfortunately the most effective thing in your matches in my experience. When you have a very high morale, try putting your worst line ups in your team, play your guys out of position, etc., if you play against a team with a low morale, you will still win. The only time you will lose will be when you finally face a team that has a winning streak and high morale just like you. This game is all about long streaks right now. Hopefully what PaulC tweaked will help to cut those streaks shorter and we will have a more realistic game.
    I am afraid that the only way to stop good morale from being so extraordinary important is to make sure that achieving and maintaining a very good or very poor morale is almost impossible.

    If Abysmal is 10 and Superb 100, a win + a successful praise/post-match team talk will give at least +10 "morale points" to a player. Speculating further, 100 morale equals 100% of CA, so OK morale = 50% efficiency, much like condition and match fitness. I really do think that morale is that essential but I expect SI to refute this.

    This is of course in layman's terms but what I believe needs to be done is to reduce that +10 "bonus" to +1 instead, for all teams, and the same with "penalties" for losses and other negative experiences. It should be impossible to maintain Very Good and Superb morale for more than a few weeks tops, and those should only be available when the team has won a trophy or crushed a fierce rival or something like that - special events... not by saying "well done lads" or "you have been in good form lately, keep it up!".

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    Season 2



    Yeah, "difficulty is about right" ...



    Are u sure match engine works well ??? ... 0-4 after 45 min ...


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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggusD View Post
    I am afraid that the only way to stop good morale from being so extraordinary important is to make sure that achieving and maintaining a very good or very poor morale is almost impossible.

    If Abysmal is 10 and Superb 100, a win + a successful praise/post-match team talk will give at least +10 "morale points" to a player. Speculating further, 100 morale equals 100% of CA, so OK morale = 50% efficiency, much like condition and match fitness. I really do think that morale is that essential but I expect SI to refute this.

    This is of course in layman's terms but what I believe needs to be done is to reduce that +10 "bonus" to +1 instead, for all teams, and the same with "penalties" for losses and other negative experiences. It should be impossible to maintain Very Good and Superb morale for more than a few weeks tops, and those should only be available when the team has won a trophy or crushed a fierce rival or something like that - special events... not by saying "well done lads" or "you have been in good form lately, keep it up!".
    Agreed 100%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleventozturk View Post
    Very simple. In your very first game the morale is balanced between your team and the opponent. There are many other factors going into ME, and in your first (and maybe only completely fair) match you can always win, draw or lose, right? If you win that game, your get an unrealistic morale boost, you carry it to your second match, and if your second opponent has lost their first game, their morale will be down, and you won't have much dificulty in beating them. So now your morale will be even higher, and it goes on and on. If you lose your first few games, it is a similar (but opposite) story, and this time you really struggle.

    Morale/form seem to be unfortunately the most effective thing in your matches in my experience. When you have a very high morale, try putting your worst line ups in your team, play your guys out of position, etc., if you play against a team with a low morale, you will still win. The only time you will lose will be when you finally face a team that has a winning streak and high morale just like you. This game is all about long streaks right now. Hopefully what PaulC tweaked will help to cut those streaks shorter and we will have a more realistic game.
    I totally agree. It all boils down to an overpowered morale system. This was always the case as it was last year, although not as bad apparently. Messing with TA's was an idea to try to bring a semblence of balance back in other ways.

    But yes, having Superb Morale seems to....
    • Render Teamtalks useless - unless you deliberately use them to **** your players off to get a better challenge (but according to SI, TT's have little effect anyway!).
    • Negate the need to make your own tacics and devise your own strategies - default ones will destroy the opposition more often or not if morale is high.
    • Superb morale with a bunch of crap players predicted to be relegated will see them go on amazing unbeaten runs, and be title challengers if you keep it superb long enough. So why bother with the transfer market?
    • And there's pretty much no need to use match prep. if morale is high, its effect again seems negligible.

    In all the easy saves I payed I basically skipped all of the above and still massivly overachieved.. because morale was maintained (by long winning streaks, few losses) right from the kick off.

    Basically one feature that is too easy to get to its highest state of superb, and keep it there, renders almost every other managerial feature moot in FM12.

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    I agree that the 'shelf life' of the extremes of morale is too long, and this is being toned down for an update.

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    I also feel that "settling in" of new players is not so important like before if you bring in 5-6 new faces and try to rush them to play all together in the first 11- you'll end up losing games. The home ground advantage also seems to be trivial and it certainly shouldn't since it's always been one of the most important factors in football.

    If you try to tone up these factors along with decreasing the team talk effect, maybe we'll get somewhere...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    I agree that the 'shelf life' of the extremes of morale is too long, and this is being toned down for an update.
    Good to know. Hopefully it'll be more like fm should be after the update.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    I agree that the 'shelf life' of the extremes of morale is too long, and this is being toned down for an update.
    This is good news.

    Unless its already like this, maybe the amount of morale gained from beating a team much worse than yourself should be lowered too. Similarly if you lose 0-4 away to Man City in the cup as a lower league team, it shouldn't destroy morale either since it was expected.
    Last edited by Erimus1876; 06-11-2011 at 09:28.

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    Too easy!





    this is not my save.. I saw in other forum but they don't complain.. strange..

    I started a new game unemployed with 'automatic' experience, and in November accepted Darlington offer.. I never switch any tactic and now i have 5 wins in 5 games only pressing continue..

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    I agree that the 'shelf life' of the extremes of morale is too long, and this is being toned down for an update.
    For us here that is great news, but oh boy, just wait for the torrent of complaints that the update has ruined peoples' games by making it too hard!

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    Quote Originally Posted by phnompenhandy View Post
    For us here that is great news, but oh boy, just wait for the torrent of complaints that the update has ruined peoples' games by making it too hard!
    We'll all be too busy playing FM to notice!

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