FM2012 difficulty.

[Matej]

i think i found solution to mine problem. Ill pay programmers after the last patch to make the game harder. End of story. If I would be happy with their work, ill send you their patch, ofc. for free. Im tired of waiting for hard version of FM. Last time i had challenge was FM07.

[Matej]

That's why as Erimus1876 pointed out, we are advocating more advanced options in the editor to make the game as challenging or easy as we want. That way SI won't be required to make any drastic changes in the game.

SI - take the game in the direction you want but give us the ability to mod the game and everyone will be happy.

Yes, we definitely need mods. Every good game have mods. And youll see then, when we make better game, all of these players who voted "game is right " will be on our mods page, wanting our version.

[Erimus1876]

Maybe they should make the patch / fix an optional download and ask anyone who wants to test it, to see if its working, or if it needs more tuning? I don't mind spending some time beta testing a fix for a game I want to play and enjoy for the next 11 months. And I bet I'm not the only one either.

No one whose finding the game perfectly fine needs to worry then as only those who want to use it, will.

[themadsheep2001]

They can tweak the morale, but the same underlying issues remain. The AI simply isnt that robust. Its not particularly good at squad building or indeed, any particular aspect (although it seems better than last year) so the same things that make it "easy" for me still remain regardless. On the other hand there are people at the other side of the spectrum who do find it difficult, and their views on the game should be respected just as much

[Matej]

Maybe they should make the patch / fix an optional download and ask anyone who wants to test it, to see if its working, or if it needs more tuning? I don't mind spending some time beta testing a fix for a game I want to play and enjoy for the next 11 months. And I bet I'm not the only one either.

No one whose finding the game perfectly fine needs to worry then as only those want to use it, will.

i noticed u use some editor program FMRTE? i never used that and i dont want to use that. But can u tell me can some really good programmer use that editor if i got it right , to put some things into the game? Better AI etc? Ill pay whatever i need to pay, now im pretty upset.

Btw. Programmers are cheap in Croatia.

[Keyzer Soze]

I just laugh when i read people saying they what realism in FM.
No you dont! You dont want realism!

I form Portugal, so lets say i gonna play FM 100% real.

1) Start a new game. Try to pick Benfica (my favourite team)! ohhh, i cant do that! Why? Well, because nobody knows me in the football world! Do you really think that Benfica would pick a 35 yo ***** with no experience to manage them? No Sir.! The Game will pick a team for you... lets say Olimpico do Montijo U-21 team, a little amateur team that plays in the lower division

2) Manage the U-21 team for... 4/5 seasons with whatever sucess, untill... lucky me... the manager of Olimpico do Montijo gets fired, and the board offers me the job! Hurrayyyyy!

3) Manage the Main squad of Olimpico do Montijo for 10 years, getting one promotion, but the next year relegated again

4) At age 50, got really lucky and Boavista from Liga Orangina ask me to manage their team!

5) After 5 games, got sacked! Why... well the truth is... i'm not a very good manager! My level is the lower one! Dont get fool... this is real! After all its not the same managing the Liga Orangina and in the lower leagues

6) Well, after 30 years (10 passing by unemployed) i finally retire myself from the football world

Ok... realism is good... but only untill some point!

I want my kind of realism! The one where i pick my favourite team (Benfica), and win the champions league after 4 season (first season... no no no... it would be unreal... but... more then 4 season... i'll get tired... because i want to win).

As i see it... adding difficult levels will not solve the problem. After that we will get all this thread with titles like..."difficult level it«s to hard"...."difficult level it«s so easy"... or whatever.

The only solution i see for this is... The game remains as it is, ad SI provide a Editor with options for all you "FM GURUS - SAF/JM WANNABE'S" make the game with your kind of realism.

[milnerpoint]

i noticed u use some editor program FMRTE? i never used that and i dont want to use that. But can u tell me can some really good programmer use that editor if i got it right , to put some things into the game? Better AI etc? Ill pay whatever i need to pay, now im pretty upset.

Btw. Programmers are cheap in Croatia.

Nah FMRTE only reads game data, so you can only make certain edits to improve anything game wise, i used it a lot in FM11 to make all managers in my league world class and gave all SPL clubs sugar daddys. But it cannot change anything under the hood so to speak. You would need to understand how FM works first before you could consider changing anything like that, which will be practically impossible unless you work for SI.

[Erimus1876]

i noticed u use some editor program FMRTE? i never used that and i dont want to use that. But can u tell me can some really good programmer use that editor if i got it right , to put some things into the game? Better AI etc? Ill pay whatever i need to pay, now im pretty upset.

Btw. Programmers are cheap in Croatia.

As milner says its just a data editor. However its very powerful and a god-send it you want to make the game harder in some areas. For example you can overcome the AI team building short-comings to some extent by improving your main rivals' squads (give them some wonderkids, or increase their key players' attributes). Or do as milner does and give them sugar daddies and a big transfer budget and they will compete better against you in the transfer market. This type of stuff can be done at the start of every new season, or every 2nd season - depending how much time you have or how bigger challenge you want.

The problem with FMRTE is though is it can sometimes corrupt your save (never happened to me yet though). So its not an ideal solution, more of a bandaid fix to squeeze a bit of difficulty out of the game.

As far as this FM12 easiness issue goes the way I'm handling it at the moment is by using a Morale Reset (I'm assuming SI are right in stating it is morale related). To create a morale preset read this post in the editors forum, I've made a step by step instruction list.

You could also set your manager rep to 1 to to see if that makes it harder. In FM 12 you manager starting rep has been significanlty increased for some reason.

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...=1#post7281377

[milnerpoint]

Has that made a big difference Erimus?

[Tinkerman84]

I'm impressed!
It's taken eight pages before we got a conspiracy theory

Either this thread gets back (more or less) on topic and the bickering stops or it gets closed.

Referring to post 789 in case anybody is confused.

if its conspiracy then you're confessing that you're incapable of making near perfect games.. Since you're judging your success with your profits, you have no option of judging my opinions about unsatisfactory of AI of FM.. and since I'm the loyal customer who pays for FM , I have every right to complain about evrey aspect of dissatisfactory..

SI must sort out and make AI much more realistic so we spent more time playing and less time arguing.. that would what i call a new feature and a near perfect game..

[milnerpoint]

no one makes near perfect games, especially not Kriss

[Erimus1876]

Has that made a big difference Erimus?

Not a massive difference, but on the surface it seems some difference, enough to make my game enjoyable. But I can't 100% say for sure if it works since the league I'm playing in had computer generated players (no real players). So despite my media prediction being 12th, I don't really know how much discrepancy there is between the best team in the league and the worst. I'm doing ok in 9th after 25 games, a far cry to the other games I started. I still win 1-0 or 2-1 after a morale reset, but it doesn't *seem* as easy as other games. Its more enjoyable because its more unpredictable is what I'm getting at, if that makes sense.

Results so far...

[milnerpoint]

Not a massive difference, but on the surface it seems some difference, enough to make my game enjoyable. But I can't 100% say for sure if it works since the league I'm playing in had computer generated players (no real players). So despite my media prediction being 12th, I don't really know how much discrepancy there is between the best team in the league and the worst. I'm doing ok in 9th after 25 games, a far cry to the other games I started. I still win 1-0 or 2-1 after a morale reset, but it doesn't *seem* as easy as other games. Its more enjoyable because its more unpredictable is what I'm getting at, if that makes sense.

Results so far...

Just so im clear are you keeping moral at 12 at all times or are you just changing it back down if it gets too high?

[Tinkerman84]

no one makes near perfect games, especially not Kriss

I waited almost ten years to even see 3D match view,an till then i keep watching some silliy guys on the pitch that walks and runs sidewards, crabwise whatever you call.. at least they should have done much more better with the AI.. I don't expect PES like grapihcs but i expect clever AI.. not unbeatable but much more clever in the long run saves..

[Erimus1876]

Just so im clear are you keeping moral at 12 at all times or are you just changing it back down if it gets too high?

I have it set to 11 (11=Okay). I used it 4 times so far, after the 4-0 win over Spennymoor, morale was superb on around 6 first-teamers and good to very good on the rest. After the 4-1 win over Billingham Town. Morale was sky high before that and one of those horrible winning streaks was developing. After the 1-4 loss to Guisborough I used it for the first time to raise morale, and once again just after the 2-2 with Whitley Bay. In hindsight I think I prefer using it to lower morale as its more of a challenge, and probably a lot easier with all the manager features we have, to raise it without using a reset from abysimal to okay so thats what I'll probably do from now on.

[SeanNUFC]

I have it set to 11 (11=Okay). I used it 4 times so far, after the 4-0 win over Spennymoor, morale was superb on around 6 first-teamers and good to very good on the rest. After the 4-1 win over Billingham Town. Morale was sky high before that and one of those horrible winning streaks was developing. After the 1-4 loss to Guisborough I used it for the first time to raise morale, and once again just after the 2-2 with Whitley Bay. In hindsight I think I prefer using it to lower morale as its more of a challenge, and probably a lot easier with all the manager features we have, to raise it without using a reset from abysimal to okay so thats what I'll probably do from now on.

Waaay too much effort for me tbh. All this morale stuff. Just hope the update works.

[Erimus1876]

Waaay too much effort for me tbh. All this morale stuff.

Its actually dead easy once you have it set up in FMRTE. Only takes a second to do.

[milnerpoint]

I have it set to 11 (11=Okay). I used it 4 times so far, after the 4-0 win over Spennymoor, morale was superb on around 6 first-teamers and good to very good on the rest. After the 4-1 win over Billingham Town. Morale was sky high before that and one of those horrible winning streaks was developing. After the 1-4 loss to Guisborough I used it for the first time to raise morale, and once again just after the 2-2 with Whitley Bay. In hindsight I think I prefer using it to lower morale as its more of a challenge, and probably a lot easier with all the manager features we have, to raise it without using a reset from abysimal to okay so thats what I'll probably do from now on.

Have you tried the freeze attributes setting to see if you could just keep your moral at 11/12 the entire time? I know it freezes attributes but wasnt sure about moral.

[grep]

I'm impressed!
It's taken eight pages before we got a conspiracy theory

Either this thread gets back (more or less) on topic and the bickering stops or it gets closed.

Referring to post 789 in case anybody is confused.

The conspiracy theory is human diversion, understandable, of course there is no conspiracy at all.

Other than that closing this thread will only trigger the opening of new ones on the same subject so it ain't worth.

I have seen that on many other FM world forums there is the same thread subject, so it is not a medieval superstition but a reality witnessed in each world FM forum.

[Erimus1876]

Have you tried the freeze attributes setting to see if you could just keep your moral at 11/12 the entire time? I know it freezes attributes but wasnt sure about moral.

I've thought about that but like you wasn't sure if it can be set up to just freeze morale and leave all other attributes alone. Playing the whole season with it constantly fixed on "okay" morale would be and interesting thing to try. I might backup my save and have a mess on, although I'm burned out with this testing malarky to be honest

[Erimus1876]

The conspiracy theory is human diversion, understandable, of course there is no conspiracy at all.

Other than that closing this thread will only trigger the opening of new ones on the same subject so it ain't worth.

I have seen that on many other FM world forums there is the same thread subject, so it is not a medieval superstition but a reality witnessed in each world FM forum.

SI never went to the moon.

FACT

[grep]

SI never went to the moon.

FACT

Neither USA did it in '69

[milnerpoint]

I've thought about that but like you wasn't sure if it can be set up to just freeze morale and leave all other attributes alone. Playing the whole season with it constantly fixed on "okay" morale would be and interesting thing to try. I might backup my save and have a mess on, although I'm burned out with this testing malarky to be honest

Yeah i worry that it would just freeze your players attributes which wouldnt really be much fun in the long run. It does seem like this is mostly related to your team being able to go on huge winning streams quite easily, which im guessing would be tied into moral getting really high really quickly and not dropping from there. If you dont get moral there, then you dont seem to suffer from the problems as much. Fair play for your testing tho!

[milnerpoint]

Neither USA did it in '69

Of course they did, have you not seen Transformers 3!!??

[grep]

Of course they did, have you not seen Transformers 3!!??

LOL


Some fun in this thread is necessary otherwise Kriss may think we are conspirating against the Empire and he, being Darth Vader, may start to loose grip.

[milnerpoint]

LOL


Some fun in this thread is necessary otherwise Kriss may think we are conspirating against the Empire and he, being Darth Vader, may start to loose grip.

Pft ignore Kriss, he is just getting on a bit
I better watch tho, he might do that mind death thing Vader does if im not careful

[Kriss]

All your posts belonga me!

I can multi delete (users as well as posts) just one bad analogy and you're all history

[milnerpoint]

have i ever told you your my fav mod Kriss......... hahahaha

[shirajzl]

What's the point of this thread atm?

We've established a few things which won't change:

1. SI are aware that a part of the community is unhappy with the game as it is.
2. They've said they were working on it.
3. They also realize that the vast majority of FM users don't post on these forums and there's no way they can know the exact number of unhappy costumers. They can only rely on sales number, which are obviously good enough.
4. They're aware they can turn a part of community against them if they make the game more difficult (while regaining respect of those who are unhappy now), so it's a matter of numbers, i.e. money.

This thread has turned into going into circles and people insulting each other.

[Loversleaper]

Morale can explain a few things, long good/bad runs to some extent. I was just wondering why nobody has been discussing the Match Preparation aspect, I have a feeling that something within this mechanism could be causing some of the issues...

[grep]

Morale can explain a few things, long good/bad runs to some extent. I was just wondering why nobody has been discussing the Match Preparation aspect, I have a feeling that something within this mechanism could be causing some of the issues...

What exactly are you referring to ?

I have read some posts reporting pretty much the same known FM behaviour placing players in the wrong role or even all 10 in attack.

[Erimus1876]

Well, I've posted the FM Editor 2.0 idea in the wishlist thread. Hopefully the guys at SI will see it there and give it some thought. Wether its doable is another matter. If not for next year, maybe sometime in the future. I don't think we can keep asking SI to try and balance the game for everyone - its an impossible task. Allowing us to do it ourselves is the way forward as I see it.

If you agree, please lend your support here:

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...=1#post7295781

[Matej]

Well, I've posted the FM Editor 2.0 idea in the wishlist thread. Hopefully the guys at SI will see it there and give it some thought. Wether its doable is another matter. If not for next year, maybe sometime in the future. I don't think we can keep asking SI to try and balance the game for everyone - its an impossible task. Allowing us to do it ourselves is the way forward as I see it.

If you agree, please lend your support here:

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...=1#post7295781

Ofc i support!! But i cant put "like" there, its not facebook. Nice post there m8.

[Erimus1876]

Ofc i support!! But i cant put "like" there, its not facebook. Nice post there m8.

No like button no. But you can quote it with one of these ""

[milnerpoint]

I do like your idea Erimus sadly i dont think what your asking would be a simple task or possible, but kudos for the idea it at least gives SI food for thought

[hugo_rune]

I don't think we can keep asking SI to try and balance the game for everyone - its an impossible task.

Why not, though? They can keep improving AI decision making, and removing exploits. Admittedly every time they add new features it becomes a little bit more complicated but they can and should move in that direction.

[Loversleaper]

What exactly are you referring to ?

Well, it has been discussed that if you keep things simple by using one tactic, thus not using shouts or changing tactics, then you can be relatively successful (tried it a while back and can confirm this aspect). Changing Strategies and using Shouts can effect the Match Preparation reality...

I personally think that the Match Preparation has it's role to play in all of this, somehow...

[themadsheep2001]

Well, it has been discussed that if you keep things simple by using one tactic, thus not using shouts or changing tactics, then you can be relatively successful (tried it a while back and can confirm this aspect). Changing Strategies and using Shouts can effect the Match Preparation reality...

I personally think that the Match Preparation has it's role to play in all of this, somehow...

Not sure this has much effect, i use three tactics and plenty of shouts and am still successful, indeed, i'd put a good amount of my success down to tactical flexibilty, and out manouvering the Opposition, particularly when im the underdog

[Loversleaper]

Not sure this has much effect, i use three tactics and plenty of shouts and am still successful, indeed, i'd put a good amount of my success down to tactical flexibilty, and out manouvering the Opposition, particularly when im the underdog

You'll probably be more successful if you didn't. Before you start discussing how sure or not sure you are with me, maybe it would be a good idea to pass the question on the the main man himself...

[themadsheep2001]

You'll probably be more successful if you didn't. Before you start discussing how sure or not sure you are with me, maybe it would be a good idea to pass the question on the the main man himself...

i know i would be less successful i didnt. the changes arent done for the sake it.

[egesagin]

I always use shouts, and many of them. And change between customized shout compilations in game a lot. But things go well, if it worked like you think, than I'd never be succesful like that

[Loversleaper]

i know i would be less successful i didnt. the changes arent done for the sake it.

If you are talking about the ME before the Match Preparation introduction then I would agree, with the way things are currently then absolutely not. Look, if you don't agree then it will be your oppion - but if you really go into the testing aspect of the game and start to make comparisons you might look at things differently...

[egesagin]

Loversleeper, sometimes my team performs badly and I can't figure out why, we're 3-1 behind at 75th minute and I want to shout pump ball into box. I look and find out that I forgot to give the shouts at the beginning of the match. So they were playing with default tactics. This happened to me a lot, in both 11 and 12 so I'm pretty sure that there is no guarantee on your opinion.

[themadsheep2001]

If you are talking about the ME before the Match Preparation introduction then I would agree, with the way things are currently then absolutely not. Look, if you don't agree then it will be your oppion - but if you really go into the testing aspect of the game and start to make comparisons you might look at things differently...

Its something i always pay attention to, as part of playing the game. I play my game on extended (occaisonally full if i have the time) and i watch the different effects shouts/formation changes have. My game is an extended test (not by design, merely by process), paying attention to what works and what doesnt. I know that my 4-4-2 will leave occaisionally overpowered, thus i switch to my 4-2-3-1, and i regaain the upper hand, or my long passes are going astray, so i use the retain possession shout.

[milnerpoint]

Match prep being over powered wouldnt really explain this, if people are being successful from the off, and your team will never be fully familiar with your formation by the start of the 1st season then i fail to see the big difference it makes when your team is fully familiar. If people are winning from day 1, then the familiarity of the formation is not the defining factor here.

[Loversleaper]

Its something i always pay attention to, as part of playing the game. I play my game on extended (occaisonally full if i have the time) and i watch the different effects shouts/formation changes have. My game is an extended test (not by design, merely by process), paying attention to what works and what doesnt. I know that my 4-4-2 will leave occaisionally overpowered, thus i switch to my 4-2-3-1, and i regaain the upper hand, or my long passes are going astray, so i use the retain possession shout.

Well, if you every really want to get into a debate about tactics, you can always pop in over to the T&T and we can have it there (just remember to roll up your socks first). The thing is that you have to be able to make the comparison first before you know what works or not, because if you did make the comparison we wouldn't be having this talk at all. The MP and it's reality has made this game a lot easier, if you believe me or not is up to you. I think if you asked PaulC, he might be able to tell you about the mechanism behind the MP - it might clear up a few things discussed in this thread...

@milner : the MP opens a window...

[egesagin]

Well if MP is low, the team gets thrashed by everyone, that's normal. But high MP shouldn't let you beat every team. If that is indeed the case, then they should work on the high end of MP.

[milnerpoint]

@milner : the MP opens a window...

Yes but a window the AI can also get through. MP is a very easy thing to get right, you only have 5 options, two of which you would only use for certain obvious situations. I'd be interested to see you show some proof otherwise if you have tested this.
If MP was having such a huge effect then why hasnt it been mentioned when Paul has dropped into this thread?

[Loversleaper]

Yes but a window the AI can also get through. MP is a very easy thing to get right, you only have 5 options, two of which you would only use for certain obvious situations. I'd be interested to see you show some proof otherwise if you have tested this.
If MP was having such a huge effect then why hasnt it been mentioned when Paul has dropped into this thread?

Look, you are clearly not looking at the angles here. Why do you think PaulC keeps saying that morale doesn't have that much an effect as people are suggesting, and I am inclined to agree with him. It does have some consequences, but it is not the make or break of the issue. The 'familiarity' aspect is something that I think has much more influence...

[egesagin]

It almost sounds like you're blaming PaulC for covering up the MP issue by talking about the morale issue AND making a fix for morale. Now that's a conspiracy!

just kidding but if it was about MP, I think he would be nice enough to say it. Am I too naive? :/

[milnerpoint]

Look, you are clearly not looking at the angles here. Why do you think PaulC keeps saying that morale doesn't have that much an effect as people are suggesting, and I am inclined to agree with him. It does have some consequences, but it is not the make or break of the issue. The 'familiarity' aspect is something that I think has much more influence...

Hang on a minute mate, your speculating, not providing me with cold hard facts, your speculation is no more or less founded than anything else mentioned in this thread. Paul has said moral is not the be all and end all of winning a game when people claim that is the only important thing required for winning a game in FM. I say again if people are winning games from day one without any issue, with a new tactic, 1st season, then familiarity is not the defining factor in the whole thing, because no team will be 100% familiar with a formation in the 1st day of the 1st season. I could understand what your saying if people were not winning for the 1st few months then flying from there onwards, but that doesnt seem to be the case here.

[Loversleaper]

It almost sounds like you're blaming PaulC for covering up the MP issue by talking about the morale issue AND making a fix for morale. Now that's a conspiracy!

just kidding but if it was about MP, I think he would be nice enough to say it. Am I too naive? :/

What?!? Where did I say anything about conspiracy or blame anyone? I am just stating an (important) aspect that has been overlooked...

Hang on a minute mate, your speculating, not providing me with cold hard facts.

I don't have to provide you with anything at all. If you gave a description of how the MP mechanism worked then we could have a talk on what exactly I am suggesting, but you are so far away from understanding what the aspect could be that I wouldn't even know where to start...

What's this from day 1 thing you are talking about? Have you already forgotten the whole preseason part with friendlies and what not...? When I said the MP opens a window, it means that it opens the 'familiarity' window. How you interpret this is up to you - I can't make it any clearer.

The main reason I even tried to give another aspect to the issues in this thread was maybe to save Erimus a whole bunch of wasted hours, so all in all it had nothing to do with you...

[egesagin]

I thought that the more familiar with the tactics, the better the players did "what you told them to do". So if what you told them doesn't make any sense, or is a bad tactic for that league, then it should still end up in failure. If it works differently, I'd really like you to tell us briefly on the working principals of MP. Of course if you have confirmed knowledge from SI on that. Otherwise it would be just speculation

[PaulC]

My thoughts so far:

- I dont think its MP. I cant see any significant evidence and besides the AI also use it.

- I think morale is a factor but not the be all and end all. In a few pkms I have experimented with switching one teams' morale ( morale = 20-morale ) and the effect has been no more than expected....well possibly less. But yes, morale is too easy to keep high, and sometimes but less common, too hard to get out of rut. This will be addressed in an update in due course.

- I think the AI's use of tactics creator in conjunction with team selection needs a reworking for a future release. But this code has NOT changed since 11.3. No real scope for improvement in a 12 update unfortunately.

- Any concerns about AI squad building however valid they may be a) aren't my area of the game and b) shouldn't affect the first season or two anyway. Many of the claims of easiness are about season one.

- In short I am baffled by people finding 12.0 significantly easier than 11.3. But then its mainly anecdotal without being able to poll a scientifically balanced cross section of the fanbase

[Loversleaper]

My thoughts so far:

- I dont think its MP. I cant see any significant evidence and besides the AI also use it.

Prior to FM11 we didn't really have the option. FM11 being too easy or not is a matter of oppinion, but I do know that it was already discussed before FM12 hit the streets (maybe not discussed as much). What the 'familiarity' brings compared to the opposite might create an advantage of some form, that with the morale aspect could be a cocktail.

What is your take on how the Shouts effect the 'familiarity' of the instructions during matches? An example would be: in the MP you practise more direct passing but you use a Shout during a match to play 'shorter'...

[PaulC]

I dont know about the shouts, another coder implemented MP.

What I do know is that the effects under the bonnet in the pkms I have looked at do not suggest its a problem.

[egesagin]

Well can you at least notify that coder to come view this post and answer our questions maybe? We really appreciate your effort here but they should take a look at such an important topic, and give their opinions at least...

[phnompenhandy]

Even if you haven't cracked it, kudos for your efforts Paul

[wwfan]

I dont know about the shouts, another coder implemented MP.

What I do know is that the effects under the bonnet in the pkms I have looked at do not suggest its a problem.

I think it would be useful to have a look at the .tac files from users experiencing this phenomenon to see if there is a pattern of sorts in tactical settings. It is worth experimenting with if you can't find anything in the pkms to indicate why this might be happening.

[Riz Remes]

Regarding Match Preparation, as I'm responsible for this area... the effects of match preparation inside the ME are exactly the same as in FM11 and the AI sets up their own match preparation just like humans and have done so since FM11. I've looked at some of the pkms PaulC shared with me on matches deemed "easy wins" and the match preparation effects are not too severe by the looks of it. Naturally, human managers that tend to stick mainly to one tried and tested tactic can get their team to be 100% familiar with their tactic faster than some AI managers that tend to switch tactics around a bit more, but overall the effects are quite small as the AI doesn't often use tactical settings that the team would be totally unfamiliar with.

I have already looked into the AI match preparation setup and we've done some improvements in this area to get the AI teams to prepare a better set of tactics for example as this naturally will help AI managers to keep up their effective MP familiarity levels in matches. We'll keep on investigating the effects of these aspects of the game over time to see if there are other things we can maybe improve upon if it feels this is biased too often one way or the other.

I've also already looked at some of the team talk aspects and we've worked on how the manager reputation affects the player reactions to team talks as PaulC already mentioned earlier. We'll also keep monitoring the team talk effects in pkms but so far there aren't any clear indications that team talks alone would be any special key to easy success.

As multiple aspects have been already considered in this thread, the feeling of the game being easy might be a combination of different factors and not just one particular thing alone. There has been some good discussion above on the different areas of the game and even some good ideas on possible improvements, even if they wouldn't be directly related to making the game any easier/harder.

[milnerpoint]

Thanks very much for your reply and continued interest in the thread Paul.

edit: and Riz!!

[phnompenhandy]

Riz, on the issue of AI and MP, if you'll allow me to digress from the 'easy' issue, another problem I brought to the bugs forum is that the AI overrides the human managers instructions re. the U18 squad. The AI will continually default to giving the U18s high MP (30%) even when you manually set it to 0. For many of us, the results of U18 games are unimportant, and we don't want intense training time given to defending set pieces for the next game rather than being put into their long-term development. Could you fix this too, please?

[Blinkenlights Faxlore]

Riz, while you're here - I find that another problem with the match preparation is the lack of feedback from the game as to what effect is has, or how big an effect. At the moment, it's just a matter of setting it and praying that it actually does something or other, which I don't think is conductive to it being used to the best effect.

[Riz Remes]

phnompenhandy: The above is really unrelated to this thread, so let's stay on topic. Your issue has already been looked at though and we've looked into improving that for the AI as well.

[phnompenhandy]

Okay, that's great

[bleventozturk]

Not a massive difference, but on the surface it seems some difference, enough to make my game enjoyable. But I can't 100% say for sure if it works since the league I'm playing in had computer generated players (no real players). So despite my media prediction being 12th, I don't really know how much discrepancy there is between the best team in the league and the worst. I'm doing ok in 9th after 25 games, a far cry to the other games I started. I still win 1-0 or 2-1 after a morale reset, but it doesn't *seem* as easy as other games. Its more enjoyable because its more unpredictable is what I'm getting at, if that makes sense.

Results so far...

Finally something that proves to some here that it is ALL ABOUT MORALE. I don't care if I sound arrogant, I guarantee it is because of high morale how mediocre human controlled teams manage to have never ending winning streaks. If I was PaulC, only for a day, I would have proved this and fixed it.

Again, what Paul said he tweaked, will work somewhat. It will be a workaround like Erismus here did. But the real solution is to reduce the effect of morale on players' decision making, which in turn will decrease the effect of morale on how players perform in this ME.

[bleventozturk]

My thoughts so far:


- I think morale is a factor but not the be all and end all. In a few pkms I have experimented with switching one teams' morale ( morale = 20-morale ) and the effect has been no more than expected....well possibly less. But yes, morale is too easy to keep high, and sometimes but less common, too hard to get out of rut. This will be addressed in an update in due course.

I'm happy to hear that it will be addressed in an update. You experimented in changing the morale in a game, and say the effect is very small, but I'm pretty sure there is a snowball effect if you consider a whole season. A team with high morale having even a 'slight edge' will have major advantage if they can hang on to the high morale for long term. Your little tweak will make a big difference overall in my opinion. We will see.

[grep]

Tweaking morale is the decision and it makes sense from SI point of view and hopefully a bit also for us because :

SI can't change the tested balance of the game and the smarter way to address things a little bit is tweaking the morale, this will somehow affect the seasons statistitcs without changing the overall game balance.

Told that, I didn't understand how manager's reputation level may affect how players behave if such level is already been chosen by a gamer. I mean if I have chosen f.i. Professional will the player's reaction rermain the same after the patch or will it be modified as well ? Or simply each level will be slighlty tweaked for games started from scratch only ?

Thx

[Mitja]

- I think the AI's use of tactics creator in conjunction with team selection needs a reworking for a future release. But this code has NOT changed since 11.3. No real scope for improvement in a 12 update unfortunately.

Defensive strategies (Contain and Counter) produce ultra slow football without intention to score goals. Proper counter-attacks were always a problem of this game, players don't sprint forward like they instructions suggest. On the other hand the fast tempo, high mentality gung ho tatctics produce much more counter-attacking football without intention of keeping the posession. I'm sure you're awere of this.

Manualy (in clasic system), it's not hard to make a proper counter-attack tactics in FM. Or a posessional one. Tactical tools allow it as well as match engine. Problem with TC tactics is that low mentality strategies will always produce posessional football and high mentality ones, counter-attacking football. With it's current tempo logics this will be even more obvious. I'm 100% sure.

When you pick a good team or after a year or two when you build it, your opponents will use useless defensive strategies more and more... for example in my last game as Real Madrid I had 40 shots on goal and Zaragosa had 2 or 3.

Things that need to be looked at (I'm quite sure you could come up with some solutions for a final patch):

- Mentality logics. Put the passing direction out of mentality calculation or put everything else out of it's calculation so it becomes only passing direction (posessional-counter attack) instruction...

- or rework TC setup. Counter-attacking tactics need higher mentality, tempo and forward runs if you're to see some counter attacks. Putting eveyone on run from deep often in defensive strategies won't be enough.

- improve defensive behaviour, defending as a unit, closing down. that's more for next relesies I guess.

Regards

[egesagin]

Mitja, that never happens to me. I play possesion football with attacking mentality and score goals with beautifully developed attacks with many short passes. And I have scored at least a hundred goals from counter attacks while playing counter or contain in FM12. I don't think anything's wrong with that part of the game. It was fine even in 2010 where I secured a massive win against Inter, with a much smaller club, by switching to contain at 1-1 and winning for one with 3 goals from counter attacks.

[Mitja]

I'm 100% sure of what I'm talking about, done so many experiments even Paul couldn't convince me I'm wrong. I didn't say you cannot dominate posession with high menatilty tactics or see some conter attacks with defensive ones. How do you watch your games, key, extended? Try do this put one team mentality, tempo, on 1 and time wasting on 20. Then do the opposite for the other team and observe.

- low menatilty: lots of back and side passes no metter the passing instructions. deeper starting position and less like to move forward. less risky game in general.

- slow tempo: more touches on the ball. slowing things down.

- high time wasting: slowing things down, less likely to start or execute a counter attack.

[themadsheep2001]

My thoughts so far:

- I dont think its MP. I cant see any significant evidence and besides the AI also use it.

- I think morale is a factor but not the be all and end all. In a few pkms I have experimented with switching one teams' morale ( morale = 20-morale ) and the effect has been no more than expected....well possibly less. But yes, morale is too easy to keep high, and sometimes but less common, too hard to get out of rut. This will be addressed in an update in due course.

- I think the AI's use of tactics creator in conjunction with team selection needs a reworking for a future release. But this code has NOT changed since 11.3. No real scope for improvement in a 12 update unfortunately.

- Any concerns about AI squad building however valid they may be a) aren't my area of the game and b) shouldn't affect the first season or two anyway. Many of the claims of easiness are about season one.

- In short I am baffled by people finding 12.0 significantly easier than 11.3. But then its mainly anecdotal without being able to poll a scientifically balanced cross section of the fanbase

Cheers for letting us know it is not all about morale. Probably too early to be asking, but any idea what else the update would entail?

[Erimus1876]

Thanks for your responses PaulC and Riz. It very encouraging to see your input on this matter

[Fede_Gu]

Thank you PaulC, thank you SI!

[BiggusD]

I'm 100% sure of what I'm talking about, done so many experiments even Paul couldn't convince me I'm wrong. I didn't say you cannot dominate posession with high menatilty tactics or see some conter attacks with defensive ones. How do you watch your games, key, extended? Try do this put one team mentality, tempo, on 1 and time wasting on 20. Then do the opposite for the other team and observe.

- low menatilty: lots of back and side passes no metter the passing instructions. deeper starting position and less like to move forward. less risky game in general.

- slow tempo: more touches on the ball. slowing things down.

- high time wasting: slowing things down, less likely to start or execute a counter attack.

The issue here is that ticking off "counter attack" in the team settings will do the opposite of letting your team create counter-attacks.

In FM, "counter-attacking football" means that a team will keep possession in the defense in order to draw a deep-lying opponent out so as to create space to attack in. In real-life football, "counter-attacking football" is to be aggressive in the midfield and defense in order to create break-aways and then attack quickly when the opposition's defense is unbalanced.

If you want to play counter-attacking football in FM you need to let your players close down all over the place, have attacking mentalities and relatively direct passing. The tempo has nothing to do with this because when you win possession in a good position on the field the passing will go quickly if there are enough options up front. Also, "counter attack" needs to be un-ticked if you are to do this regularly - their decision will be to pass sideways in the back four or back to the keeper too often if it is ticked off.

If you set the strategy to Counter Attack in TC mode, you will drop deeper (you don't want this because the distance to their goal will be longer once you win possession), you will have a less attacking mentality (you don't want this because the players will be less aggressive and thus there will be fewer instances of counter-attacks, and the players will be less inclined to attack even when possession is won), and I believe the tempo is set to be quicker so their aimless passing in the back will be more likely to end badly... among other undesirable things happening.

[PaulC]

In the ME, when the counter attack is sprung the players assume highest tempo and mentality for that phase of play. If you have clear cut examples of that not working correctly let me know.

[Mitja]

Well said BiggusD thanks for explaining this further. I don't agree about tempo not being important here. It looks strange and nothing like real footbal when you see players standing with ball still, waiting for someone to close them down so they can pass the ball back to the keeper. Most counter attacks are usually played really fast - 2 touches at most, or player running with ball at fastest pace. But ball is always quicker than a player. I think timewasting slider could easily regulate both mentality, tempo and passing direction in counter-att tactics when the opp defense is set back. But you're right that mentality as a passing direction and more direct passing to lounch quick counter attack are more important than tempo.

Imo there's too much of difference between specific instructions ninimum and maximum. I really don't believe ''any team in the world'' would play at tempo or mentality of what is in FM 3 or 5. Or for example run with ball instruction where a player who is set on often cannot spot the most obvious pass and will run from one wing to another 5 times in row but when you set him to mixed he will only do it from time to time. I think FM could easily get rid of some instructions, like run with ball, long shots...even mentality.

[egesagin]

It looks strange and nothing like real footbal when you see players standing with ball still, waiting for someone to close them down so they can pass the ball back to the keeper.

You obviously didn't watch the team I support in the last 3 years :'( This aspect of the game is sadly realistic..

[Kriss]

You obviously didn't watch the team I support in the last 3 years :'( This aspect of the game is sadly realistic..

England have done it for the last 40 years

[Fede_Gu]

I've just realized that tonight I've dreamed I went on the forum and I saw "Football Manager 2012 Patch 12.0.5 OUT NOW"!

Probably I need a doctor.

[Calculating Infinity]

The game seems way too easy. I usually start with Palermo, it's usually hard to get into the top but also not too hard to stay in the subtop, but I started out by winning Serie A easily. Started a new game and instantly gained promotion with southampton and did well in my second season in premier league, really would wish there at least was some difficulty option as I am just not having fun like this, had a way harder time with everything in FM11 also after the patches.

[alexyfoot]

I am sorry but anybody saying the game is not easy is either a complete idiot or mentally ill.

1st Save - Napoli (prediction 5-6 I think)
1 - Champions, Italian Cup
2 - Champions, Italian Cup, CL Final (lost because had cup final 2 days before the CL final and players were tired...)

1st Save Continued - Wolfsburg (prediction 15-16 I think)
3 - 2nd + German Cup
gave up on save as I was destroying everyone in Germany season 4...

Decided to restart with some rubbish team to test if the game is really THAT easy so...
Darmstadt in German Third Division (prediction 20th, no wage budget, no transfer budget)

Currently I am 1st, 7 pts in front of 2nd from 16 games. 10 games won in a row (having 4-5 injured players all the time and almost no subs. I win even away, with 9 or 10 men without much tweaking of tactics).

ABSOLUTE DISGRACE SI! I actually paid for this game and feel like I've wasted my money.

mind you I play since CM99...I have struggled at some point on all versions up to now except FM12. Easiest game ever. I am not paying for FM13 unless SI publish a FIX for the current game.

[milnerpoint]

welcome to the forums, what a fantastic way to introduce yourself, if you read the thread you will see it is being looked at for a future patch.

[Mintah]

Well if MP is low, the team gets thrashed by everyone, that's normal. But high MP shouldn't let you beat every team. If that is indeed the case, then they should work on the high end of MP.

This definitely isn't the case. I use very low MP and I'm still doing quite well.

[alexyfoot]

welcome to the forums, what a fantastic way to introduce yourself, if you read the thread you will see it is being looked at for a future patch.

I looked through the thread. As far as I can see this is a poll so I am giving my opinion. When my all-time favorite game is ruined by developers of course I am going to be straight and say what I think about it directly. No need for irony there.

Issues like this should have been seen on the demo and the beta. Why is SI selling a game which half the players are not happy with? If I got the game for free I would not swear, but unfortunately things don't come for free.

Do you really think no one at SI has tried the game and seen it just doesn't work properly? A patch should have been available long time ago, not waiting for it in Mid-November.

[Coentrao]

I am sorry but anybody saying the game is not easy is either a complete idiot or mentally ill.

1st Save - Napoli (prediction 5-6 I think)
1 - Champions, Italian Cup
2 - Champions, Italian Cup, CL Final (lost because had cup final 2 days before the CL final and players were tired...)

1st Save Continued - Wolfsburg (prediction 15-16 I think)
3 - 2nd + German Cup
gave up on save as I was destroying everyone in Germany season 4...

Decided to restart with some rubbish team to test if the game is really THAT easy so...
Darmstadt in German Third Division (prediction 20th, no wage budget, no transfer budget)

Currently I am 1st, 7 pts in front of 2nd from 16 games. 10 games won in a row (having 4-5 injured players all the time and almost no subs. I win even away, with 9 or 10 men without much tweaking of tactics).

ABSOLUTE DISGRACE SI! I actually paid for this game and feel like I've wasted my money.

mind you I play since CM99...I have struggled at some point on all versions up to now except FM12. Easiest game ever. I am not paying for FM13 unless SI publish a FIX for the current game.

That's what confuses me, i haven't found anything that easy so far, are you playing with just a default 442 as well or are you creating your own tactics?

To me it's being somewhat the same as FM11.

[milnerpoint]

If you have to insult to get your point across im afraid your not going to get much positive feedback on here.
29% of people in this are unhappy, please dont just pluck numbers from random. If you have something positive and constructive to add to the discussion then please continue, ranting generally is of no use at all to anyone.
I know for a fact, SI devs play the game, more than we probably do, its also not an issue that effects every single user, so its hard to finger exactly what is causing it, again if you read the thread you should already be aware of this and aware of the points SI are going to look at in order to improve the game for the minority thinking it is too easy. There is no point in them rushing anything out which may unbalance the game, again if you have read the thread you would know this.

[alexyfoot]

I used 3-2-3-2 in Napoli, 3-5-2 in Wolfsburg and a pretty standard 4-4-2 in Darmstadt. Once players are familiar and I see it works, I don't tweak it much. Trouble is whatever I try works in FM12, which is where the problem lies for me - obviously it is too easy to get the tactics right and too east for the AI to get them wrong.

In FM11 things were a bit harder, especially if you had a bad run, you couldn't handle morale and you had very bad spells (just like in real life - just look at Arsenal beginning of season). Here the morale never goes bad as you win no matter what you do. So if you win no matter what you do, where is the fun?

And to Milner - based on my observation you really have to be an idiot not to be overachieving on this game, it is far too simple. I don't want SI to adapt the game just for 13 YOlds who don't know how to play. If they want to do that, then just add an option for experienced people with harder settings. I know many are against such an option but unless SI fixes this year's version, only 13 YOlds are going to buy next year's game. I know people at SI are not idiots and they don't want to throw away they big experienced fanbase....so here comes the question, why is FM12 so bad if what we experience with the game has been experienced by SI beforehand?

One more thing - create a poll with same question in a forum with only experienced players and the look at the results. This forum is far more mainstream, that is why there so many people satisfied with the game hardness. As I said it's good they want to please less experienced players, but I don't really care about them - I want to enjoy the game I am paying for, too.

[milnerpoint]

Again if you have to use insults to get your point across i would question the point in you being here. There is a good discussion going on without the need for them, please keep those kinds of comments to yourself, because you do not enjoy the game does not give you permission to insult those who do.
If the game was as bad your making out the poll results would look alot different, fact is your in the minority, but SI is aware of your concerns and are working to improve the game, if you buy next years or not is your choice but gives nothing to this discussion.

[lee_uk]

no future patch will make this game "hard"....will just affect the morale issue.huge improvements needed to the AI and have been for a while actually.

[Keyzer Soze]

Winning with Napoli, for me is not overachiving. Napoli, in FM, has one of the best teams in Italy, and the media prediction (6 or 7 place) is just wrong.

Apart from that, Alexyfoot, i just wish you didn't spend your time writing those 3 post. Too sad to be true!

[alexyfoot]

If we have a thread on FM12 Difficulty with 900 posts in it, I am obviously not the minority. As I said before, don't look at the poll results and say it's fine. Look at the size of the issue and how much attention it attracts and then you know something is wrong. Check last year's edition and see how big an issue it was for FM11. Oh, wait, I can't find such a thread or anything close in terms of thread size on the issue...shocking, right? Defend SI as much as you want, I stand behind what I said - the game should have been fixed long time ago if they wanted to fix with a patch. I don't want the game fixed in April - FM12 is not fun in April as by then I'd have had enough and would be wondering what's coming out in October 2012.

I wasn't suprised by the Napoli result but come on ... Darmstadt with standard tactics - 10 wins in a row...are you serious?

[ReggaeBwoy]

no future patch will make this game "hard"....will just affect the morale issue.huge improvements needed to the AI and have been for a while actually.

Fact, true statement summed up in one line

[Keyzer Soze]

Alexyfoot,

This thread is not about trashing SI. Is about people talking and trying to help SI to fix the problem. Realise the difference?

[alexyfoot]

Alexyfoot,

This thread is not about trashing SI. Is about people talking and trying to help SI to fix the problem. Realise the difference?

Do you know a way to fix it? As far as I know, only SI can fix it...If you want to be responsible, go ahead, I can complain to you. I thought the money from selling FM copies went to SI, SEGA, etc...why trash someone else? I have always been happy with SI, but if things are going wrong why should I keep quiet?

If I am selling a game and know that many people are unhappy with the game, I will try to fix it. That is why I am not keeping quit and using a bit more aggressive language - I am sure developers care about the game and read these posts as it is a big issue. Hopefully, they will fix it with a patch if it is possible at all, if not maybe they will seriously think about fixing it in FM13.

by the way the thread title is FM2012 Difficulty - as far as I can see I am commenting on the topic. The thread is not called "How can I fix the game's difficulty?" - if someone has figured it out, maybe he should start one like this. Discussing would not solve the issue, we are not the game developers.

[milnerpoint]

If you made a game would you risk unbalancing the game to appease the minority of users who did not like how it worked? Therefore risking alienating the majority of your customers? There is more than just your, or my opinion here, so far the feedback SI have had is good on the most part, a small percentage seem to be having a problem. Again Si have said they will look at changing things, but only if it doesnt upset the balance of the game. You cannot really ask for anymore.

[Keyzer Soze]

by the way the thread title is FM2012 Difficulty - as far as I can see I am commenting on the topic. The thread is not called "How can I fix the game's difficulty?" - if someone has figured it out, maybe he should start one like this. Discussing would not solve the issue, we are not the game developers.

It's impossible trying to be reasonable with someone so unreasonable! I give up!

[KUBI]

Hm, some people playing the game since "99" at least, but did avoid this forum for years?

I always thought that all we hardcore FM aficionados are part of that community for a very long time. Posting issues and suggestions directly for the developers. But now some of those are entering the forums for the very first time.

[alexyfoot]

If you made a game would you risk unbalancing the game to appease the minority of users who did not like how it worked? Therefore risking alienating the majority of your customers? There is more than just your, or my opinion here, so far the feedback SI have had is good on the most part, a small percentage seem to be having a problem. Again Si have said they will look at changing things, but only if it doesnt upset the balance of the game. You cannot really ask for anymore.

With the popularity of the game these days, I'd have introduces difficulty option a few versions ago...Long time ago only die hard fans were playing FM and therefore having a hard game was popular with everyone. The game is now more mainstream, but making it only for the mainstream player is rubbish as it alienates their established fanbase. To be honest I don't see a problem with a difficulty setting even though many people are against it...What is wrong with the idea? Every other game has it...I can give you plenty of examples of games that I am awful at and that I am good at so I play at different difficulty level...If everyone else does, why does SI refuse to do it, when obviously it will going to work for today's FM? I am challenging anyone here to give me a reason why it would not work from a player's perspective, I don't know how much effort it is going to be for SI but they sold plenty of copies this year so they should have the resources to do it.

KUBI - this is not the only FM forum on the internet - not everyone has to post here. I don't post much on these forums but I've been reading this one particularly since it was created basically, I just didn't feel the need to post in it.

Keyzer - I have not come here to argue with you specifically so feel free to give up. Your irony as a tiny bit more offensive than using the word idiot for me. People that to use irony tend to think they know everything.

[Kriss]

I'll repeat (ad nauseum it seems) SOME people say they're finding it too easy under certain circumstances.

That points to something going wrong on the initial game set up or possibly during the first season, or even possibly both.

A majority of the people who voted in this poll don't subscribe to that, so to say the game is too easy is wrong.

It's too easy for some people some of the time is the way I read what evidence has been presented so far.