The game is too easy.
The difficulty is about right.
The game is too hard.
Random results? Probably.
For sure MP 2nd and 3rd string at 0 IMHO had not a big impact as someone says.
The ever-present DC matches the supposed issue - 8 goals from 20 attempts, 40% conversion. The other guy has 7 from 29 attempts (24%). Unless I've misunderstood, it was suggested that 1 goal in 5 attempts is realistic. Therefore this means that the ever-present has scored 4 'too many' and the other guy has maybe 1 'too many'. (For the record I have not adjusted set-piece instructions for any set-piece, other than to name the takers themselves)
Where I find it difficult is in uderstanding how these 5 extra goals across 30 games is the reason I have won 27 out of 30 and average 3.3 goals a game, especially when there was one game recently where both of them scored 2 each, so you could argue that at least 2 of these 'extra goals' came in one match
A better way to see the effect of the MP would be to use two human users. Make sure that the one team is 100% familiar with the tactic it uses (and only use that one during the entire match without any changes) and the other team far away from any familiar settings. This way you might be able to see if the MP 'familiarity' makes a difference (and how much)...
Last edited by Loversleaper; 14-11-2011 at 16:15.
Although as others have pointed out, Riz wrote the MP code so if he says it does what it does, I'm happy to go with that....
... but... still... very tempted to give this test a go just to kill off any lingering curiosity. Human manager v Human manager... hmmm.
*must resist temptation and get back to updating my DB*
Damn you Loversleaper
Yep, I understand your point and I agree.
But my point is not the same: we're arguing about what could or could not be the big "bug" (I don't like the term in this case). MP, Morale after a positive streak, set pieces etc.
We know that in a single game AI teams use 2nd and 3rd string formation more than often.
A 0 familiarity with 2nd and 3rd string tactics could signify a disaster, in real life, especially if (and it's the case) these tactics are used in emergency situations.
What I've said is "IMHO there are no evidence that MP 0 familiarity on 2nd and 3rd string formations are strongly linked with strange outcomes of the matches".
Probably a tweak is needed BUT I'm really convinced that MP is not the main issue (unfortunately).
Last edited by Erimus1876; 15-11-2011 at 09:54.
Last edited by Loversleaper; 14-11-2011 at 20:04. Reason: forgot a word...
Say that for every game you get a 'gimme' goal, you win. You also win 1/3 of your games fairly. After 30 games your record would be circa W20 D5 L5. However, if you add in some of the morale advantages that 'hangover' from winning streaks and your MP advantage, you can award yourself a few more wins. Voila, you have 27!
Scoring 7 or 8 goals is maybe not realistic for a Dc to score in a season, but it's acceptable. It surely doesn't make a game from being easy to chalenging. Far from it.
For me being able to have 20+ shots per game is just as annoying. Probably even more.
I never swap the two CDs from their left/right sides, so the default corner instructions are always the same too. Noticed that the ever present DC (who for the record has scored another in the next 4 games, from a corner obviously) always attacks the near post rather than the far.
I understand more from your answer, so the only thing I'm seeing that seems to be against the grain is that I'm having a far greater impact from the DC attacking the near post (however, he is also the much higher rated player)
Last edited by Jari Rantanen\'s Shorts; 14-11-2011 at 20:59.
I'm the earlier thread chap. They key attribute difference between the 2 DCs was that the one getting all the goals had a very high STRENGTH attribute. He was inferior in Head/Jumping. They both have poor attributes in anticipation and off the ball.
Anyways, I'm glad this thread became very useful to SI to improve the game. Thank you to everybody who contributed
BTW, just seen someone in the Tottenham thread who beat Manu 10-0
Tottenham are over-powered!!
Naturally if you have multiple tactics trained, then any changes you make during the match are checked against all the trained tactics to see if the new match tactics have been trained previously. And even if they haven't been trained, the players will still keep a part of the trained level of familiarity depending on how much the new match time tactics differ from the ones they had trained for.
Well, I have seen roughly 20-25 penalties both from AI and mine and roughly 95% of them have been scored.
This is not a shout like the easiness one, this is only a side question I posted to listen to your opinions
* eagerly awaits the next update/patch *
Nb. I get very little success from free kicks. My free kick takers don't have good attributes (neither do my corner takers), so that seems right to me.
I was wondering, does the 'familiarity' have any effect on goal conversion rates (since we are talking about set-pieces/corners as well elsewhere)?
Last edited by Loversleaper; 15-11-2011 at 16:33.
about right i feel.
I am certainly being more successfull in FM12, whether thats down to me just playing better (transfers, tactics etc) or the game is actually easier, I'm not sure...
Corners goals have a bug or something?? Is so easy to score from a corner :S
Just won another 1st season save - this time Grasshoppers (predicted 7/10). I am 3/4 first time league winner now. Only Wolfsburg took me 2 seasons from the bottom of the table. Differenet tactics in each team and in the last one - not a single tactical change all season... I feel ashamed to be called "wonder-maker" by the game, for it probably everyone is.
Grasshoppers are over-powered in my game too (AI managed), I think that some of the players like de Ridder, Landeka, Bertucci, Paiva etc. are a lot better in FM than in reality.
Last edited by KUBI; 15-11-2011 at 21:18.
I just saw in the other thread , C. ROnaldo scored 19 goals in first 5 games. WHats more interesting , in same thread, P. Crouch score 43 goals in a season. This game really need some balance and realism. Peter Crouch never was scoring machine, only time he score 20+ goals was for Liverpool, but in 3 seasons, hehehe.
I really dont know whats happening with this game, but i know that you must make this game harder to beat. Put some challenge in FM13, before its too late.
Actually, its pretty sad that i didnt play with the clubs i support, for 8 years (real life), Ac Milan and Arsenal, because its too easy to play with them. YOu must make some challenge for top teams too. Many players actually support bigger clubs, not smaller ones.
Only club i like and its not in first league is Sheff. Wednesday, but im tired of playin with them.
Last edited by Matej; 16-11-2011 at 02:40.
in my 6th season the most goals i've had by 1 player in the league is 24 by suarez, that was once. he's hit 20 twice, and then never more than that. neymar gets 15-18/season. and a regen i have gets 10-15. but i'm not getting anyone with 30, 40, 50 goals...
Theres was a old football manager (i dont remember the name atm), where you pick the team you want... but always start in the 4th division.
So for example, you could pick your favourite team (Arsenal), and start the save in the 4th division.
This could be arranged in the game along side with the option to play with fictional players.
And maybe SI could arrange also a little introduction story like..."Arsenal got relegated to the 4th due to finances issues..." or something like that.
This could be a nice challenge to many players, imo... and a very easy one to implement in the game.
This is possibly one of the most important thread for years; let's not derail it with daft ideas.
I don't think this game's any easier than FM2011, to be honest. I'm playing as Lazio and I've been humbled by stronger teams (Barca, OM, PSG) etc. Haven't won the league yet in 4 seasons though I do have an italian cup. In FM11 I would be ripping the league/europe/intercontinentals apart with my B-team.
And yes, I do keep my player morals high all the time.
I'm regulary having silly amounts of shots with Real Madrid. This is a little analisys of real life squad and my in FM.
IRL Real have scored 23 goals in last 6 matches, won them all. Real has scored 3,83 goals per game.
vs Osasuna 7:1 (Real had 16 shots)
vs Sociedad 1:0 (12 shots)
vs Villareal 3:0 (13)
vs Malaga 4:0 (13)
vs Betis 4:1 (23)
vs Espanyol 4:0 (15)
Together they had 92 shots, which meens 15.33 shots/game.
Real in my FM save: we have scored 14 goals in last 6 games. 2,33 per game. If I don't count two super cup games with Barca which is also managed by me then we had 3,5 goals/game.
vs Bayer 4:0 (36 shots on goal)
vs Espanyol 2:1 (21)
vs Zaragoza 2:0 (40)
vs Sporting 4:0 (23)
vs Barca (managed by me also) 0:1 (9)
vs Barca (managed by me also) 0:1 (12)
This meens 141 total shots or 23,5 per/game. If I don't count games with Barca we had 30 shots per game on avarage.
I'm able to have twice as more shots per game than real life Real, with goals/game being lower. This is a big problem I think and surely one of the reasons why this game is easy. Especially for people who play with big clubs, or become such in few years or have a good tactic. WHich includes almost everyone at one point I guess. The reason why it is happening is in poor defensive AI and tactical system which could be easily improved.
In this two games just Ronaldo has as many shots as Real has on avarage in real life:
Last edited by Mitja; 16-11-2011 at 15:27.
A very interesting thread. Thought I'd chip in.
Here's a shot taken just after preseason of my match preparation (if it appears):
Attributes improving nicely, I'm sure you'll agree. Tactics 1 and 2 are both 442, but #1 is a disciplined counter-attack setup and #2 is a more fluid standard setup. This obviously explains why the majority of values are similar. There's not a great deal of difference between the two.
What I find confusing are the values for tactic #3. Tactic #3 doesn't exist. I have never trained it and have not used another tactic during a match if I remember correctly. So what do these values represent? Are they various shouts that I've used? I've experimented with most of them throughout the preseason.
Anyone else experiencing this? It seems to fall within the remit of the game being easier than I was expecting as the players seem to be gaining knowledge of tactics that I know nothing about. I do have a "fairly professional" squad, so maybe they're spending the evenings doing background reading
Last edited by FishBowlMan; 16-11-2011 at 22:58. Reason: spelling
Isnt too easy.
Almost got the sack twice in my 2nd season and once in my 1st.
But in my 2nd season, spurs signed an unknown African striker. 28goals in 10+ apps? Before January even started.
Wayne rooney was at 14, and my Leandro Damio was 3rd at 13. How did he even hit 28? ._.
So Tottenham are top of the table. Same point as united, but top of table because of GD
I agree with the people saying it isn't to easy. The problem is you have a few select forums members who have been playing the game for years who know every trick in the book in regards to the ME and how to get results. Personally I have found this version of FM far more playable and enjoyable, it reminds me of the old Championship Manager games actually.
I can't help but feel after seeing Paul C reading comments from a few 'experts' that once again they will patch the game and basically ruin what in my opinion is the most fun version of FM series for a very long time. This whole topic brings up once again the whole difficult setting option. I for one see no reason why this cannot be implemented (linked to manager starting reputation maybe), either way it is clear you have a lot of people who really enjoy the full on technical aspect and ultra micromanagement of FM, and then you have others like me who like something simpler and yes easy.
After 13 pages of very fruitful discussion with SI, we now have people offering opinions who haven't bothered to read the thread. That makes those view utterly worthless and are just degrading the debate. Have a read of what people have actually done and discovered. Since it has proved to be extremely important to Paul Collyer himself, I don't think someone who hasn't bothered to understand the issues knows better than the creator of the game.
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Paul C say himself that he needs to be VERY careful in what changes are made as it seemed a hell of a lot of people are actually loving this version of FM?
That is indeed what I said.
If I can reduce human exploitation of corners where it occurs, and also reduce extremes of morale I think everyone will be happy. But so far we havent even started testing some of this internally.........
Last edited by Mitja; 17-11-2011 at 08:38.
It's the exploitation of holes in the ME that makes the game easier than others find it. It's easy to download a tactic from various forums that has bee successful, load it in and get results without doing very much. The ME will never be perfect, but there's clear improvement. I love this years match engine, and I build my own tactics and use the roles and shouts because I feel that way you're not exploiting any holes (unless you happen to stumble on one), and your tinkering makes a difference in the game.
If you're against player naming do not read on. Although no key details revealed.
Alright this is after 50 games in a season with Stoke. Huth and Shawcross are my starting CB's and both assume the default roles of front post back post, Shawcross front, Huth back. I know for a fact that Shawcross scored all his goals from corners whilst Huth did score some long shots also. One player that is drastically skewed is Situ who has a percentage of goals to shots at 42%, and I know that he scored all but one from corners in a spell where he replaced an injured Shawcross. All these goals were scored from the FRONT post glancing the headers in, in between the keeper and the man on the post almost every time. Crouch being the big man he is, didn't score from corners at all.Code:PLAYER POSITION SHOTS/GOALS RATIO % PENS Tomas Hubocan RB - - - Robert Huth CB 4/21 19 - Kenwyne Jones ST 4/21 19 - Andras Nagy ST 2/3 66 1 Felice Natalino RB - - - Wilson Palacios CM 1/8 12 1 Jermaine Pennant RM 5/42 11 - Bjorne Helge Riise RM 2/11 18 - Karim Rossi ST 3/15 20 - Ryan Shawcross CB 2/18 11 - Ryan Shotton RB 0/2 0 - Darnel Situ CB 8/19 42 1 Johnathon Walters ST 1/8 12 - Marc Wilson CM 3/16 18 2 Danny Collins LB 1/1 100 - CORNER Peter Crouch ST 2/4 50 - NONE FROM CORNERS Yassine LM 4/40 10 - Rasmus Elm CM 0/25 0 - Matthew Etherington LM 3/33 9 - Rasmus Falk ST 1/40 2 - Gary Hooper ST 10/73 13 -
Just my findings.
And as I posted this Shawcross has scored 2 from a corner and a free-kick.
Poolfan, for me a key issue that sets this thread apart from many others is that it is a mature discussion. I ignore the many rant threads about how people hate the game, worst ever, rubbish ME etc etc. Nobody in this thread is saying that. Like most other contributors here, I believe FM12 to be the best version ever, but it is not flawless, and we have identified some problems for which PaulC, Riz Remes, wwfan and others involved in creating the game are grateful and want to put right.
I dont think paul is meaning intentional exploitation, the standard set ups seem to be the ones doing the most damage, but since the AI does not use the same standard set ups as we do, it does not benefit from the problem.
Off The Ball: 8
Which suggests he's a beast.
Antwi at the near post has got himself completely free of his marker, running towards the inswinging near-post corner. He has a free header and scores.
There is terrible marking from the AI at this corner. Why do Preston have 2 people on the edge of the 18 yard box doing absolutely nothing? Why has the man on the far post suddenly run towards the penalty spot?
It seems to me that the defenders and goal keeper are completely unaware of Antwi's prescence, and that the corner is aimed at the near post, thus anyone attacking this side of the pitch is posing a threat.
Look closely at the Keeper's actions. When he finally works out the trajectory of the ball, he runs towards the edge of the 6 yard box, right in the middle of the goal, presumably to be in a position to catch the ball. He has not worked out there is a danger posed by the attacking player. He either has not seen him, or assumes that he will miss the ball and wants to be in a position to catch the cross.
After the ball is headed, the keeper tries to move back to the goal line, only to bang into the person who has left his back post position.
My guess is that something is wrong with the decision making of the goalkeeper. Surely he should anticipate the main danger is from the attacking player at the near post and position himself accordingly. If the attacker misses the ball, then he must rely on a defender to clear the danger, and get himself in position to deal with the next threat.
I have noticed this behaviour many times from the AI goalkeeper dealing with corners and general crosses where an attacker gets in front of where he wants to position himself to catch the ball.
To be fair, it is a pre-season friendly. This is when players are just starting to be familiar with the manager's tactics and instructions. I see any amount of defensive howlers on both sides in pre-season.
i've been scoring heads like this all season, and although it seems to be a glitch, I don't want to NOT do it, just beacuse it's getting me a lot of freak goals. I worked on the set pieces myself so feel I deserve it!
There's always going to be exploits it's just whether you choose to exploit them. If I find my own exploits, I use them - if I read about exploits, I tend not to
The standard attacking corner tactic is exploitative because it is set up intentionally to draw everyone away from the two CD's who are attacking the near and far posts. They typically have only one opponent near them, and that is in my experience typically their shortest player.
As long as the defending corner instructions are so generalized as they are, and marking their one main aerial threat with two or more players remain impossible, corner kicks will continue to be unbalanced in this game.
Besides, too many good corner kicks come from players who are not good at corner kick taking. Making that attribute more sensitive would fix part of this problem. 15+ 1/3 hits target, 11-14 1/5 hits target, 6-10 1/10 hits target, 1-5 doesn't target... I say why not?
I could understand it if the attacking player just managed beat him to the ball, but there's often 5 or 6 yards between him and the attacker, often with a completely clear view.
It certainly isn't that simplistic. Getting the stats to match up to RL across the various levels we simulate means it's a constant balancing act.
Hardly reveals anything, Bournemouth irl got to the play-offs last season despite being tipped for relegation due to a lack of funds and only a limited amount of players where it was often the case they had to field reserve/youth players.
The rest of us just whip it in aiming at a general area and with an attempted curve... and the force of that kick is the maximum we dare to do because we know that our technique doesn't allow any more - too much force and the ball's in orbit.
Once we have kicked the ball into that general area, the rest is up to the players in the box.
What set piece experts do is, as explained above, an entirely different story. FM needs to reflect this for the sake of realism and I believe it would fix the amount of corner goals, but not entirely - not until the set piece instructions also reflect real life by allowing multiple markers of the main aerial threats.
For me, this game is a little bit easier than FM 11 but... till april. I've played one save with HSV and one with West Ham. In both situations, my team played very good, we were leaders with great advantage, but in april everything changed. I couldn't win a single game. My players forgot how to play. Last 6-7 matches both with HSV and West Ham were without a win. I've tried changing my tactics, team talks etc., but it didn't help. Like a curse. How do you deal with such problem?
(sorry for my english)
Until you get players with high Determination, pressure handling, professionality, big matches, ambition etc... that will remain a problem for you. Reducing the pressure in the team talks can help, but at the same time, low-pressure team talks (like "go out and have fun") are typically unable to motivate the players to fight hard and give everything they have, so they can backfire.
Can you just confirm tactic used, teamtalks and goals from corners.
PaulC, do you have success with fixing corners and moral prob? When you could release next patch? Are we talking about few weeks or couple of months? Im not rushing things, just dont know should i wait week or two, or start playin. I didnt play real career (usually 10+ seasons) since FM2011.
Suggestion for FM2013. It would be good that strikers dont score so many goals, usually my striker(s) score 40+ goals per season. Last few days i didnt write much, but i was investigating that problem here and on other forums, and many players have same thinking. On this forum you have some threads where P. Crouch, for example, scored 43 goals in one season. Thats impossible mission for him in real life, if you look his career statistic.
One more thing for FM2013, i noticed that my players play much better for me, then for AI clubs. Every time i sell some player, and go to his history 3-4 years later, i see he has much worse avg. rating in AI team. That happens in 95% of the time. Same thing is when i buy some player from AI club. if he played 6.42 for AI club, im sure he will play over 7 for me. Are we so better then AI?
Last edited by Matej; 18-11-2011 at 13:03.
No timeframe decided yet Matej.
does anyone else experience a problem like your own players dont wanna play for your, because they think, "the lack of experiences could damage the team"??? Ive started a save with everton, my managerial reputation is very low, from the first day on, almost the whole team was struggling to motivate themselves to play for me. now 10 games played, 26 out of 30 points, leading the table, qtr finals in carling cup and still there are several players with the same problem. its really annoying, as I cant get the best out of my team, when some players are not motivated. in fm 11, this problem was very quickly solved, mostly after the first 4-5 friendlies, very you really convinced everyone or at least after the first couple of games. but in fm 12, in another save, even reaching the 3rd place with everton and winning the carling cup, in the next season, there were still players, who had motivation problems, because of my low reputation. what do you guys normally do? do you set your reputation to high when you manage a pl team?
When he moved to Man United, he start playing in a 442 formation, as a left winger. Of course he scored much fewer goals. Also he average rating droped just below 7 (less goals, less rating). But this could be related to the fact that the english primier division is much more competitive then the portuguese league.
I usually play in Portugal, so usually the players move to a better league (spain, england, italy, germany). It's harder for a player to get a higher rating when the competition is fiercest.
In my saves, i have lots of examples like the Gaitan one, so this is why i never thought about this as an issue (bug?).
Nb. regarding your quick question, did you notice PaulC saying a few posts back that he hadn't started on it yet? Patience ...
Keyzer Soze- i know what you thinking and i agree with you, in that part. Problem is it happens ALL THE TIME, like phnompenhandy said. Even if you sell your player in league where you play, he would play worse. Doesnt metter if the AI club is stronger or weaker then your club. Maybe 1 in 20 times player would play better in AI club. THats weird.
jdrawmer- same answer
Lots of problems with AI squad building can in my opinion only be addressed by rewriting the AI to look at players in a much more detailed and human manor.
whilewolf - yes, i think you said good reason why this is happening. I really didnt know AI sees ONLY age, pos, rep and CA. THats horrible. I knew its because of bad AI, thats why i wrote it would be good to fix that in FM13. I know they really need new AI, this one is close to the death.
Last edited by Matej; 18-11-2011 at 18:51.