[Discussion Thread] - League reputations at game start

The add/remove leagues function in FM '12 has made me a bit curious about league reputations, mainly because of a save concept I have (start in the lowest rated leagues, then add higher-rated ones in when/if I ever dominate the lower-rated leagues and conceivably could get a job in a bigger league).

So I've fired up a new game, and looked at all the leagues that are playable out of the box (plus a couple that I know FMCUers have used edit files to get - those leagues are listed inside parentheses).

The new game I fired up in order to check league reputations has MLS as the only playable league, and there are only 11,000 players in a large database. But I figure since this list is from the very start of the game, it's what SI has coded them as and should hold true across all game setups.

The list:

(Algeria - League One - 2 stars)

Argentina

Premier Division - 3 stars

Second Division - 2-1/2 stars

Australia

A-League - 2 stars

Austria

Premier Division - 2-1/2 stars

First Division - 2 stars

Belarus

Highest League - 2-1/2 stars

First League - 1-1/2 stars

Belgium

Pro League - 3 stars

Second League - 1-/2 stars

Third Division A/B - 1 star

Brazil

First Division - 3-1/2 stars

Second Division - 3 stars

Third Division - 2-1/2 stars

Bulgaria

"A" Group - 2-1/2 stars

"B" Group - 1-1/2 stars

Chile

First Division - 2-1/2 stars

First Division B - 1-1/2 stars

China

Super League - 2 stars

First Division - 1-1/2 stars

Colombia

First Division - 2-1/2 stars

Second Division - 1-1/2 stars

Croatia

First Divison - 2-1/2 stars

Second Division - 2 stars

Czech Republic

First Division - 2-1/2 stars

Second Division - 2 stars

Denmark

Superliga - 2-1/2 stars

First Division - 2 stars

Second Division - 1 star

(Egypt - Premier League - 2 stars)

England

Premier Division - 4-1/2 stars

Championship - 3 stars

League 1 - 2 stars

League 2 - 1-2/ stars

Blue Square Premier - 1 star

Blue Square North/South - 1/2 star

(Isthmian/Southern/Northern Premier - 1/2 star)

(Isthmian/Souther/Northern First Division - 1/2 star)

Finland

Premier League - 2 stars

First Divison - 1-1/2 stars

France

Ligue 1 - 3-1/2 stars

Ligue 2 - 2-1/2 stars

National - 1-1/2 stars

CFA - 1 star

Germany

First Division - 4 stars

Second Division - 3 stars

Third Division - 2 stars

Greece

Superleague -3 stars

National B - 2 stars

Holland

Eredivisie - 3 stars

Jupiler League - 2 stars

(Topklasse - 1/2 star)

Hong Kong

First Division - 1 star

Hungary

Division I - 2 stars

Division II - 1-1/2 stars

Iceland

Premier Division - 1-1/2 stars

First Division - 1/2 stars

India

National Football League - 1/2 star

Indonesia

Super League - 1-1/2 stars

Premier Division - 1 star

First Division - 1/2 star

(Iran - Premier League - 2 stars)

Israel

Premier League - 2-1/2 stars

National League - 2 stars

Italy

Serie A - 4 stars

Serie B - 3-1/2 stars

Serie C1 - 2 stars

Serie C2 - 1-1/2 stars

(Serie D - 1/2 star)

(Japan - League 1 - 2-1/2 stars; League 2 - 2 stars; JFL - 1

star)

Malaysia

Super League - 1 star

Premier League - 1/2 star

Mexico

First Division - 3 stars

Promotion League - 2 stars

(New Zealand - ASB Premiership - 1/2 star)

Northern Ireland

Premier Division - 1-1/2 stars

First Division - 1/2 star

Second Division - 1/2 star

Norway

Premier Division - 2-1/2 stars

First Division - 2 stars

Second Division - 1 stars

Peru

First Division - 2 stars

Poland

Ekstraklasa - 2-1/2 stars

First Division - 1-1/2 stars

Portugal

Premier League - 3-1/2 stars

Second League - 2 stars

Second Division - 1 star

(Qatar - Stars League - 2 stars)

Republic of Ireland

Premier Division - 2 stars

First Division - 1 star

Romania

First League - 2-1/2 stars

Second Division - 1-1/2 stars

Russia

Premier Division - 3-1/2 stars

First Division - 2 stars

Scotland

Premier League - 2-1/2 stars

First Division - 2 stars

Second Division - 1 star

Third Division - 1/2 star

Serbia

SuperLeague - 2-1/2 stars

First League - 2 star

Singapore

S-League- 1 star

Slovakia

First Division - 2-1/2 stars

Second Division - 1-1/2 stars

Slovenia

First League - 2 stars

Second League - 1-1/2 stars

South Africa

Premier League - 2-1/2 stars

First Division - 1 star

South Korea

K-League - 2-1/2 stars

N-League - 1-1/2 stars

Spain

La Liga - 4-1/2 stars

Liga adelante - 2-1/2 stars

Second Division B - 2 stars

(Third Division - 1/2 star)

Sweden

Premier Division - 2-1/2 stars

First Division Elite - 2 stars

First Division - 1 star

Second Division - 1 star

Switzerland

Super League - 2-1/2 stars

Challenge League - 2 stars

(Tunisia - Ligue Professionnelle 1 - 2 stars)

Turkey

Premier Division - 3 stars

First Division - 2-1/2 stars

Second Division - 1-1/2 stars

Ukraine

Premier League - 3 stars

First League - 2 stars

(United Arab Emirates - Professional League - 2 stars)

United Stars

Major League Soccer - 2-1/2 stars

(Second Division - 1-1/2 stars)

(Third Division - 1 stars)

Uruguay

First Division - 2-1/2 stars

Second Division - 1-1/2 stars

Wales

Premier League - 1 star

(First Division/Cymru Alliance - 1/2 star)

In general, you can see there's a logical order of descent: Leagues are rated either a half star or a full star lower than the league above them, and a half star or a full star higher than the league below them.

What is interesting to me is that pattern doesn't hold in Belgium, England, Portugal, Russia and Spain: There is a 1-1/2 star difference between the first and second divisions in Belgium, England, Portugal and Russia, and full 2 star difference between La Liga and Liga adelante in Spain.

The Belgium one is probably the bigger surprise to me, as I wouldn't think there would be that much of a difference the Pro League and Second Division (I can't remember if the Second Division is a semi-pro league. Someone who has played there can clarify that). I can see a 1-1/2 star difference between the Premiership and the Championship, just because the Premiership is a massive league worldwide. Portugal and Russia are a mild surprise, only because they don't fit the pattern.

But the 2-star gap between Spain's top 2 leagues is very interesting. Theoretically, this suggests the step up should be a major problem for teams promoted from Liga adelante (especially if your assistant reports that your players tend to be "in awe of" teams with higher reputations). But it also suggests they have a shot at players your assistant manager would leave off his search list as being "unrealistic" transfer targets.

The England setup is also interesting, because everything from the Blue Square North/South has a 1/2-star reputation, which could help explain when a poster is playing with a club that rises rapidly through the non-league structure: The next league up is really no bigger than the league it promoted from. It might also suggest that SI needs to tweak the reputation models, as 10 slots (each half-star increment) isn't enough to account for leagues being further down than Level 5.

Also, there's a 1-1/2 star gap between Italy's Serie B and Serie C1, but that makes sense to me since Serie B is a nationwide league, whilst C1 is a regionalized league.

SI's 10 slots is designed for the leagues out of the box... ie Conference North/South.

Good job putting it altogether Jason. Shame I haven't got FM2012 to give these a whirl.

SI's 10 slots is designed for the leagues out of the box... ie Conference North/South.

That's true, but it also allows for less variance in league reputation than, say, player attributes. The attributes give you 20 "slots" to pick from for each category.

Granted, those all funnel in to give you a scout report based on the same 5-star rating system (10 slots, 1 for each half star). But I suspect there's a lot less info being processed to determine that a player is 4 stars, than to determine that a league is 4 stars.

The Belgium one is probably the bigger surprise to me, as I wouldn't think there would be that much of a difference the Pro League and Second Division (I can't remember if the Second Division is a semi-pro league. Someone who has played there can clarify that).

I don't know the (real world) numbers off the top of my head, but yeah, the Belgian Second Division is largely a semi-pro league, with perhaps a few pro clubs who relegated from the top flight in the last decade or so.

Portugal and Russia are a mild surprise, only because they don't fit the pattern.

When I heard about the add/remove league feature, I looked the league reputations up in FM11 (as I had a slightly similar idea to yours), thinking that the league reputations would stay pretty much the same between '11 and '12 (there's been a lot of changes, though). IIRC, there were a lot more one-and-a-half star difference leagues in '11. I remember Ukraine and Croatia, in particular. What I noticed was consistent between these patten-breakers was that they typically featured one or a few teams that completely dominate the domestic top division: Dynamo Zagreb in Croatia, Shakhtar Donetsk and Dinamo Kyiv in Ukraine etc. This also holds true for Portugal, as there's a huge gap between "the big three" and the rest of the teams, bringing on a reputation-increase that is mostly team-dependent.

This is definitely the case for La Liga, too. Take away Real and Barca and there's no way it's a five-and-a-half-star league.

That's a good point, caravan, and one that hadn't occured to me.

I don't know the (real world) numbers off the top of my head, but yeah, the Belgian Second Division is largely a semi-pro league, with perhaps a few pro clubs who relegated from the top flight in the last decade or so.

Cheers, Flu.

There is certainly a difference from last year. This year I've seen people receiving job offers from clubs like Goias when beginning the game with Sunday League reputation, which is in direct contrast to the previous year where only South Africa/Sweden were particularly interested. It'll also be very interesting to see what it's like to get a new job after being moderately successful. I recall last year, having won won a slew of cups with Kaizer Chiefs, not even being able to find a job in continental Europe, yet out of nowhere Palmeiras offered me a gig.