(disproved on page 2) Finaly proved it, the game engine is bogus

I often wonder what kind of a result would provide moving players between clubs with the data editor.

So I set off hoping I would prove my own expectations to be wrong, but unfortunately I was right, the game engine is bogus or seriously flawed.

I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) to Millwall, gave Chelsea only 1 M cash and a 30 M dept, stripped roman abramovices resources to 5. However chelsea managed to buy two players.

Chelsea squad end season:

Chelsea transfers:

Millwall squad end season:

So here are the results of my test:

End Season Premier Division:

End Season Coca-Cola league 1:

Now as you can see in the pictures Chelsea did not only survive in the Premiership, it even ended up in 15 place above clubs with significantly better players with only -6 goal difference. Amazing isn't it those managers at Chelsea do miracles (Mourihno got fired half season).

If you look at the Millwall result you will see that the Chelsea super players now in Millwall squad did not have such a perfect season in the Coca cola League 2 (2 divisions under Premiership) wining in around 50% of the games. In a league where they should be able to run circles around all the players, since they are a class or two above all other players.

Quite interesting isn't it?

But wait that is not it, Chelsea even managed to get to the Championship League Semi Finals. Yes that is right the Chelsea squad consisting of young players with the ability of only 80, have managed to beat the likes of Arsenal, Barcelona, Lyon, Werder and etc.

Here it is:

Stages

First knockout:

Quater:

Semi:

Remarkable success for Chelsea isn't it?

And let's look at the two top players of the Chelsea squad:

Great goal scoring with so low attributes right?

I only wonder what I could against such incredible managers the SI put into this game.

Thank you SI for this game engine it is absolutely brilliant, it produces such wonderful results for the AI.

Finaly I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics it the game, thank you very much.

PS. I have the save game, the database used to create this so if anyone disbelieves me, I will be more than glad to upload it.

I often wonder what kind of a result would provide moving players between clubs with the data editor.

So I set off hoping I would prove my own expectations to be wrong, but unfortunately I was right, the game engine is bogus or seriously flawed.

I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) to Millwall, gave Chelsea only 1 M cash and a 30 M dept, stripped roman abramovices resources to 5. However chelsea managed to buy two players.

Chelsea squad end season:

Chelsea transfers:

Millwall squad end season:

So here are the results of my test:

End Season Premier Division:

End Season Coca-Cola league 1:

Now as you can see in the pictures Chelsea did not only survive in the Premiership, it even ended up in 15 place above clubs with significantly better players with only -6 goal difference. Amazing isn't it those managers at Chelsea do miracles (Mourihno got fired half season).

If you look at the Millwall result you will see that the Chelsea super players now in Millwall squad did not have such a perfect season in the Coca cola League 2 (2 divisions under Premiership) wining in around 50% of the games. In a league where they should be able to run circles around all the players, since they are a class or two above all other players.

Quite interesting isn't it?

But wait that is not it, Chelsea even managed to get to the Championship League Semi Finals. Yes that is right the Chelsea squad consisting of young players with the ability of only 80, have managed to beat the likes of Arsenal, Barcelona, Lyon, Werder and etc.

Here it is:

Stages

First knockout:

Quater:

Semi:

Remarkable success for Chelsea isn't it?

And let's look at the two top players of the Chelsea squad:

Great goal scoring with so low attributes right?

I only wonder what I could against such incredible managers the SI put into this game.

Thank you SI for this game engine it is absolutely brilliant, it produces such wonderful results for the AI.

Finaly I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics it the game, thank you very much.

PS. I have the save game, the database used to create this so if anyone disbelieves me, I will be more than glad to upload it.

I often wonder what kind of a result would provide moving players between clubs with the data editor.

So I set off hoping I would prove my own expectations to be wrong, but unfortunately I was right, the game engine is bogus or seriously flawed.

I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) to Millwall, gave Chelsea only 1 M cash and a 30 M dept, stripped roman abramovices resources to 5. However chelsea managed to buy two players.

Chelsea Chelsea squad end season

Chelsea transfers

Millwall squad end season

So here are the results of my test:

End Season Premier Division

End Season Coca-Cola league 1

Now as you can see in the pictures Chelsea did not only survive in the Premiership, it even ended up in 15 place above clubs with significantly better players with only -6 goal difference. Amazing isn't it those managers at Chelsea do miracles (Mourihno got fired half season).

If you look at the Millwall result you will see that the Chelsea super players now in Millwall squad did not have such a perfect season in the Coca cola League 2 (2 divisions under Premiership) wining in around 50% of the games. In a league where they should be able to run circles around all the players, since they are a class or two above all other players.

Quite interesting isn't it?

But wait that is not it, Chelsea even managed to get to the Championship League Semi Finals. Yes that is right the Chelsea squad consisting of young players with the ability of only 80, have managed to beat the likes of Arsenal, Barcelona, Lyon, Werder and etc.

Here it is:

Stages

First knockout

Quater

Semi

Remarkable success for Chelsea isn't it?

And let's look at the two top players of the Chelsea squad:

Cummings

Nielsen

Great goal scoring with so low attributes right?

I only wonder what I could against such incredible managers the SI put into this game.

Thank you SI for this game engine it is absolutely brilliant, it produces such wonderful results for the AI.

Finaly I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics it the game, thank you very much.

PS. I have the save game, the database used to create this so if anyone disbelieves me, I will be more than glad to upload it.

Larger images

I often wonder what kind of a result would provide moving players between clubs with the data editor.

So I set off hoping I would prove my own expectations to be wrong, but unfortunately I was right, the game engine is bogus or seriously flawed.

I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) to Millwall, gave Chelsea only 1 M cash and a 30 M dept, stripped roman abramovices resources to 5. However chelsea managed to buy two players.

Chelsea Chelsea squad end season

Chelsea transfers

Millwall squad end season

So here are the results of my test:

End Season Premier Division

End Season Coca-Cola league 1

Now as you can see in the pictures Chelsea did not only survive in the Premiership, it even ended up in 15 place above clubs with significantly better players with only -6 goal difference. Amazing isn't it those managers at Chelsea do miracles (Mourihno got fired half season).

If you look at the Millwall result you will see that the Chelsea super players now in Millwall squad did not have such a perfect season in the Coca cola League 2 (2 divisions under Premiership) wining in around 50% of the games. In a league where they should be able to run circles around all the players, since they are a class or two above all other players.

Quite interesting isn't it?

But wait that is not it, Chelsea even managed to get to the Championship League Semi Finals. Yes that is right the Chelsea squad consisting of young players with the ability of only 80, have managed to beat the likes of Arsenal, Barcelona, Lyon, Werder and etc.

Here it is:

Stages

First knockout

Quater

Semi

Remarkable success for Chelsea isn't it?

And let's look at the two top players of the Chelsea squad:

Cummings

Nielsen

Great goal scoring with so low attributes right?

I only wonder what I could against such incredible managers the SI put into this game.

Thank you SI for this game engine it is absolutely brilliant, it produces such wonderful results for the AI.

Finaly I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics it the game, thank you very much.

PS. I have the save game, the database used to create this so if anyone disbelieves me, I will be more than glad to upload it.

Larger images

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you explain that please.

If the range is 1 to -200, how do you move players above 80 ?

My first instinct was that this was a load of old twaddle, but it seems that you in fact raise some very valid points .

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you explain that please.

If the range is 1 to -200, how do you move players above 80 ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry if I was not very coherent, but I was writing the post at 2:30 in the morning.

I mean i moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that have the current ability attribute above or equal of 80 (the current ability attriute can be between min. 1 and max. 200) to Millwall.

Yea, I have a feeling Club rep might have something to do with it

Perhaps you should try swapping the reputations around, and see what results you get

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeadZone:

Yea, I have a feeling Club rep might have something to do with it

Perhaps you should try swapping the reputations around, and see what results you get </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I don't give a crap why this is like it is, and what SI did with the game engine, I just wanted to show that the game engine is rigged.

Your point is right that it seams that the engine relies on the rep of the clubs to even things out.

I would like to hear a official comment from SI on this kind of game behavior.

The funny thing is that in the Coca cola league 1, Dider Drogba managed to score only 30 goals in 55 games of he played in the season, and Chech managed to coneced 53. WTF??????

With the utmost respect.....

You haven't proved that the match engine is bogus at all.

You have proved that the results that can be achieved by use of the editor are strange. There are too many variables invilved for you to say with any certaintly that the match engine is responsible, (although it would certainly seem to suggest it).

Other factors, (just off the top of my head) that might be influencing this are, standard of training facilities, standard of coaching staff, hidden attributes making "stars" perform below acceptable levels and making "youngsters" overperform.

It is pretty naive of you to ignore all these other factors and concentrate solely on the one are that you wish to. The game isn't that simple unfortunately.

Well done though, you have certainly raised some excellent questions, just don't be too quick to jump to a poorly thought out conclusion.

As for a respomnse from SI, I would hope that you would get one too, but remember that it is Christmas Day and they all have families and lifes of their own too.

Merry Christmas.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

With the utmost respect.....

You haven't proved that the match engine is bogus at all.

You have proved that the results that can be achieved by use of the editor are strange. There are too many variables invilved for you to say with any certaintly that the match engine is responsible, (although it would certainly seem to suggest it).

Other factors, (just off the top of my head) that might be influencing this are, standard of training facilities, standard of coaching staff, hidden attributes making "stars" perform below acceptable levels and making "youngsters" overperform.

It is pretty naive of you to ignore all these other factors and concentrate solely on the one are that you wish to. The game isn't that simple unfortunately.

Well done though, you have certainly raised some excellent questions, just don't be too quick to jump to a poorly thought out conclusion.

As for a respomnse from SI, I would hope that you would get one too, but remember that it is Christmas Day and they all have families and lifes of their own too.

Merry Christmas. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure if you believe that that Drogba with his stats would score only 24 in 39 league games in Coca cola league 1, and Nielsen with his finishing attribute of 12 score 17 in 33 games in the Premiership.

If that is a realistic simulation of football I will personally go to the SI headquarters and kiss everybody's ass.

I think the club reputation has too much influence on performance. After about 10 years into a season there has been some swapping around in players and some of the upcoming teams has managed to get a decent squad. Unfortunatly a good bunch of players and a good tactic is not enough on too many occations. If your teams reputation doesn't climb at the same rate as the team does it will be a struggle more often than not no matter what you field.

would love to know the number of clear chances created by each teams....i assume u made no chances to the managers of both the teams??

I am not saying that it is a realistic simulation of anything.

I am saying that you have done a test and come up with some worrying/results. The problem is the conclusions that you are drawing from these results. You have proved that something is wrong. Unfortunately you have not proved what it is that is wrong.

Do you see what I mean?

If you can be bothered to take the next step, what you need to do is change some other variables to see what else affects the player performances.

Only once you have ruled all the other variables out can you say with any certainty that it is down to the match engine.

DO you see what I mean now?

You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?

1. Open the editor

2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.

3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.

4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.

5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time.

Now if it worked correctly (or should I say incorrectly) Andorra should have played like they had crap players. I have noticed this with crap nations, even if you give them good players when matches are simulated in no detail they still play bad.

Why?

Well I think this applies to the opening post as well. Basically when matches are run in no detail then it seems the result is determined by reputation. If the same test was re run with the matches run in detail then I think we would get proper results. If the opening poster wants to he can try it but it will take a lot longer. Just put the detail level on for premier league and championship and go on holiday.

I never said it was the match engine, I only mentioned the game engine in general.

It is not up to me to find out where the fault is, and I really don't care.

I just wanted to show that the fault exists.

Yes you did.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Actually I don't give a crap why this is like it is, and what SI did with the game engine, I just wanted to show that the game engine is rigged.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it isnt the game engine I guess. It is more the way SI made the game calculate games not run in detail. Seems to be down to reputation. I understand why they did this...because it is faster. But maybe they could figure out a way to factor attributes into it as well while keeping it at the same speed. Now that will require much more efficient code. If they really wanted to do this then they could go and code it it in machine code for all I care. But obviously they wont. Once again it comes down to the fact that even thought the game has a lot of problems, it is still the best football management game on the market and so people keep buying it and since SI keep making money they have no reason to fix it. I ave no problem with that, I would do the same thing. SI is a business after all and they have the right to make money and fair play to them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:

You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?

1. Open the editor

2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.

3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.

4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.

5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time.

Now if it worked correctly (or should I say incorrectly) Andorra should have played like they had crap players. I have noticed this with crap nations, even if you give them good players when matches are simulated in no detail they still play bad.

Why?

Well I think this applies to the opening post as well. Basically when matches are run in no detail then it seems the result is determined by reputation. If the same test was re run with the matches run in detail then I think we would get proper results. If the opening poster wants to he can try it but it will take a lot longer. Just put the detail level on for premier league and championship and go on holiday. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok i will start a new game with the same database, and put it in full detail, for england and the continental competitions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:

You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?

1. Open the editor

2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.

3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.

4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.

5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time.

Now if it worked correctly (or should I say incorrectly) Andorra should have played like they had crap players. I have noticed this with crap nations, even if you give them good players when matches are simulated in no detail they still play bad.

Why?

Well I think this applies to the opening post as well. Basically when matches are run in no detail then it seems the result is determined by reputation. If the same test was re run with the matches run in detail then I think we would get proper results. If the opening poster wants to he can try it but it will take a lot longer. Just put the detail level on for premier league and championship and go on holiday. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok i will start a new game with the same database, and put it in full detail, for england and the continental competitions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good. I am confident that you will find that realistic results occur like this. Well reasonably realistic results at least. Then we would have shown that the problem is with the simulation of no detail games

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ok i will start a new game with the same database, and put it in full detail, for england and the continental competitions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the spirit .

None of the "I don't care" malarkey .

If you didn't care you wouldn't be posting about it on Christams Day.

Merry Christmas .

But what does that mean, that you should watch all the games of your competitors to get the accurate results?

Or that teams like Chelsea can do significantly better than you with players with lower attributes just because they have a better reputation??

Thats BS.

yes its obviously a game flaw. But thats why the game forces you to run the games in detail that are in a competition you are part of. So if you are managing an EPL team all EPL matches are run in detail automatically so you get realistic results. But still a huge flaw in the game that non detail games are complete BS.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ok i will start a new game with the same database, and put it in full detail, for england and the continental competitions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the spirit .

None of the "I don't care" malarkey .

If you didn't care you wouldn't be posting about it on Christams Day.

Merry Christmas . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course I care because this is my favorite game, and apart from tetris is the game i played most, and I am playing it for the last 10 or so years, and I will keep playing, but SI will have to change something to keep me buying the FM 2009.

So ok I rerun the game with full detail on English competitions and European competitions.

The amazing thing is that Chelsea managed a 13th place in the Premiership, and a quarter final of the Championship League.

So the result are the more or less the same as with the game run without full detail.

So it is not in the detail level of the matches.

Wow, that was quicker then I thought. So it is a bit better but also the manager comes into play in this. But it is still unrealistic. Hopefully SI will see this thread.

arfaern. If you've got some time on your hands, perhaps you could keep running the experiment and change some of the other variables one by one.

Maybe you could swap the training facilities in one.

Maybe you could swap the coaching setup/manager in one.

Maybe you could swap the club reputations in another.

Not sure about other variables.

Then this will sort of narrow what might be affecting this.

it is true that good teams tend to underperform in leagues run with no detail in my current game arsenal finished 6th and i run that league with no detail. so it goes to show even some teams that have great squads still perform crap. oh yeh and inter milan didnt even make champions league thats how **** ther performed in italy - also run in no detail.

Ha this is complete BS.

Set the reputation of Chelsea squad from 9500 to 1000, and now amazingly they finnish last in the premiership and lose all their games in Championship Leauge goal difference 0-13.

Now I would like to ask SI what has the reputation of the club to do with the result of their games??

I am not too suprised that they finished 15th with rubbish players. The match engine is seriously biased against certain formations/tactics so those managers that used those will lose most of the time no matter how much better there players are. for example Pourtsmouth who were european contenders for 3 season straight are now in the relegation zone thanks to using a 3-5-2 formation.

In the data editor there is something like "Team Stats." Where the teams ability to perform the offside trap, the ability to use a play maker etc. are all given 1-20.

I think these stats might be factored into results, which is bogus.

that is amazing m8..........I know this is true for a fact as i made a non league side with 9000 reputation with the same squad as when the game starts and my side win the league amazingly by massive points but when i put the players on max CA with a very low reputation i am amazingly 30-1 outsiders on most games??????????

i give up

Arfaern, nice little expiriment.

Anyway, I think this is interesting and that maybe SI can divulge whether or not it is true that reputation is playing a role in the results as it does take quite a bit out of the game. For example, if a new owner buys a team that is somewhat big and has the potential to be bigger, they will never achieve this if their reputation is not high enough at the off!

This pretty much gives me more reasons to believe that the match engine indeed is based on only a few variables and everything else is window dressing to pretend one can influence.

Just take the CA of all players and Club Reputation, mix in some additions/substractions based on fitness level, morale and tactics and voila.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:

Ha this is complete BS.

Set the reputation of Chelsea squad from 9500 to 1000, and now amazingly they finnish last in the premiership and lose all their games in Championship Leauge goal difference 0-13.

Now I would like to ask SI what has the reputation of the club to do with the result of their games?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tbh, reputation is an important factor irl too.

If Anderlecht play against Barcelona for example, they will always start the match very cautious and very defensive.

Now, the game doesn't recognize the fact that chelsea has rubbish players (because normally a high rep is always accompanied by good players), so the oppostition will still act as if they are playing a very strong team based on reputation.

You created a situation that would never happen in the first place, so the game struggles to deal with it as can be expected. In other words, your experiment does not prove anything besides the fact that reputation is important for AI vs AI matches, which is not anything other than normal IMO.

This doesn't show anything about the match engine. arfaern clearly says it's "the game engine" that's troubling.

arfaern: Is there any way you can view Chelsea's matches and report what's been going on? I'm guessing if you could you'd see a completely normal match(by FM08 standards) but simply Chelsea's players converting chances as if they were the original and better players. How are matches we don't see simulated? Is there a different match engine that uses reputation instead of attributes? Is there no match engine and the game simply churns out results based on reputation? That would make sense because it helps create realistic results in the grand scale of things in leagues you don't see or care. But obviously it's very unrealistic that player abilities(or anything else for that matter) play no part in getting a team and reputation does all the work. That's just not good.

Right.

So I could conceivably find the most obscure club in existance in the editor, transfer all their players to Real Madrid, removing all their original superstars...and your research indicates that the club reputation variable would intercede and ensure that Crap Madrid would still compete close to their usual level??

If this is true, then attributes, and by consequence, scouting & buying players takes on an irrelevance.

Arfaern, I really hope you continue this thread and perform additional experiments on the game engine. If what you've already suggested should turn out to be conclusive...then this game can go to hell.

I'll be going back to Oblivion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:

You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?

1. Open the editor

2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.

3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.

4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.

5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you remove the players' actual attributes in all categories? If you change PA and CA, but you do not remove the individual attribute figures, then I think the game will use the attribute figures and compute a correct CA based on those. So changing the CA would be a waste of time, and that may be why you saw some of the results you did.

I'm happy to see more people doing experiments with FM.

As advice, you should check out the Challenges/Sign-Ups/Holiday Games forum, since lots of what people are wondering in this thread has already been answered in experiments done in that forum, and it would also give you some ideas about how to do this experiment in a better way.

Good luck!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Tbh, reputation is an important factor irl too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agry with RubenJ.

Reputation is a main factor IRL, and can determine many aspects of a game - the ref's decisions, the way the opponent is facing a high rep team, even the way the players motivate themselves playing for a high rep club or the opposite (and many other aspects, of course, more important or not).

The problem is if the AI calculates the results based on reputation ONLY, which is the wrong way, IMO.

I started a game with Premiership only on small database. After start I used FMM to lower reputation of Arsenal to 1. I went on holidays till 1 May 2008 (i don't know exactly when Premiership ends). Will report what's going on

If I worked for SI, Id be very worried by what's being said in this thread.

Frankly, if this series of experiments comes out with the results it expects, Id be quite happy to never look/touch/buy another game from this series.

here are results.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9485/arsenalpp6.jpg

Despite 2 games to go Arsenal falls to lower league.

Arsenal has sold almost all squad for 42M pounds.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marx:

here are results.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9485/arsenalpp6.jpg

Despite 2 games to go Arsenal falls to lower league.

Arsenal has sold almost all squad for 42M pounds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be fair to Si, i don't think this proves anything. If Arsenal sell all of their squad then no surprise where they end up in the league...

Transfers:

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8742/arsenal2fy3.jpg

Main factor of poor form is selling all quality players.

I will try this test with transfers switched off

Wow... Looking at this objectively certainly is worrying. While reputation does influence results IRL to some extent, marx's latest experiment seems to imply that reputation is the sole factor in deciding results in game (providing the reputation was the ONLY thing he changed - having more than one manipulated variable will produce irrelevant results).

i didn't change anything else.

This time I will change reputation at 1.9.2007

hmmm, this topic certainly raises some questions SI needs to answer...

Hmm just read through all this and I must say there are some things that are worrying to me. If the main thing behind a team getting results is club reputation then the game engine is seriously flawed. I think all these experiments are very telling and look forward to reading further results of them. If the results still keep coming back the way they are now, I will have some thinking to do about next years edition.