(disproved on page 2) Finaly proved it, the game engine is bogus

[arfaern]

I often wonder what kind of a result would provide moving players between clubs with the data editor.

So I set off hoping I would prove my own expectations to be wrong, but unfortunately I was right, the game engine is bogus or seriously flawed.

I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) to Millwall, gave Chelsea only 1 M cash and a 30 M dept, stripped roman abramovices resources to 5. However chelsea managed to buy two players.

Chelsea squad end season:


Chelsea transfers:


Millwall squad end season:


So here are the results of my test:

End Season Premier Division:


End Season Coca-Cola league 1:


Now as you can see in the pictures Chelsea did not only survive in the Premiership, it even ended up in 15 place above clubs with significantly better players with only -6 goal difference. Amazing isn't it those managers at Chelsea do miracles (Mourihno got fired half season).

If you look at the Millwall result you will see that the Chelsea super players now in Millwall squad did not have such a perfect season in the Coca cola League 2 (2 divisions under Premiership) wining in around 50% of the games. In a league where they should be able to run circles around all the players, since they are a class or two above all other players.

Quite interesting isn't it?

But wait that is not it, Chelsea even managed to get to the Championship League Semi Finals. Yes that is right the Chelsea squad consisting of young players with the ability of only 80, have managed to beat the likes of Arsenal, Barcelona, Lyon, Werder and etc.

Here it is:

Stages


First knockout:


Quater:


Semi:


Remarkable success for Chelsea isn't it?

And let's look at the two top players of the Chelsea squad:





Great goal scoring with so low attributes right?

I only wonder what I could against such incredible managers the SI put into this game.

Thank you SI for this game engine it is absolutely brilliant, it produces such wonderful results for the AI.


Finaly I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics it the game, thank you very much.

PS. I have the save game, the database used to create this so if anyone disbelieves me, I will be more than glad to upload it.

[arfaern]

I often wonder what kind of a result would provide moving players between clubs with the data editor.

So I set off hoping I would prove my own expectations to be wrong, but unfortunately I was right, the game engine is bogus or seriously flawed.

I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) to Millwall, gave Chelsea only 1 M cash and a 30 M dept, stripped roman abramovices resources to 5. However chelsea managed to buy two players.

Chelsea squad end season:


Chelsea transfers:


Millwall squad end season:


So here are the results of my test:

End Season Premier Division:


End Season Coca-Cola league 1:


Now as you can see in the pictures Chelsea did not only survive in the Premiership, it even ended up in 15 place above clubs with significantly better players with only -6 goal difference. Amazing isn't it those managers at Chelsea do miracles (Mourihno got fired half season).

If you look at the Millwall result you will see that the Chelsea super players now in Millwall squad did not have such a perfect season in the Coca cola League 2 (2 divisions under Premiership) wining in around 50% of the games. In a league where they should be able to run circles around all the players, since they are a class or two above all other players.

Quite interesting isn't it?

But wait that is not it, Chelsea even managed to get to the Championship League Semi Finals. Yes that is right the Chelsea squad consisting of young players with the ability of only 80, have managed to beat the likes of Arsenal, Barcelona, Lyon, Werder and etc.

Here it is:

Stages


First knockout:


Quater:


Semi:


Remarkable success for Chelsea isn't it?

And let's look at the two top players of the Chelsea squad:





Great goal scoring with so low attributes right?

I only wonder what I could against such incredible managers the SI put into this game.

Thank you SI for this game engine it is absolutely brilliant, it produces such wonderful results for the AI.


Finaly I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics it the game, thank you very much.

PS. I have the save game, the database used to create this so if anyone disbelieves me, I will be more than glad to upload it.

[arfaern]

Images

[arfaern]

I often wonder what kind of a result would provide moving players between clubs with the data editor.

So I set off hoping I would prove my own expectations to be wrong, but unfortunately I was right, the game engine is bogus or seriously flawed.

I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) to Millwall, gave Chelsea only 1 M cash and a 30 M dept, stripped roman abramovices resources to 5. However chelsea managed to buy two players.

Chelsea Chelsea squad end season
Chelsea transfers

Millwall squad end season

So here are the results of my test:

End Season Premier Division

End Season Coca-Cola league 1

Now as you can see in the pictures Chelsea did not only survive in the Premiership, it even ended up in 15 place above clubs with significantly better players with only -6 goal difference. Amazing isn't it those managers at Chelsea do miracles (Mourihno got fired half season).

If you look at the Millwall result you will see that the Chelsea super players now in Millwall squad did not have such a perfect season in the Coca cola League 2 (2 divisions under Premiership) wining in around 50% of the games. In a league where they should be able to run circles around all the players, since they are a class or two above all other players.

Quite interesting isn't it?

But wait that is not it, Chelsea even managed to get to the Championship League Semi Finals. Yes that is right the Chelsea squad consisting of young players with the ability of only 80, have managed to beat the likes of Arsenal, Barcelona, Lyon, Werder and etc.

Here it is:

Stages

First knockout

Quater

Semi

Remarkable success for Chelsea isn't it?

And let's look at the two top players of the Chelsea squad:

Cummings

Nielsen

Great goal scoring with so low attributes right?

I only wonder what I could against such incredible managers the SI put into this game.

Thank you SI for this game engine it is absolutely brilliant, it produces such wonderful results for the AI.


Finaly I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics it the game, thank you very much.

PS. I have the save game, the database used to create this so if anyone disbelieves me, I will be more than glad to upload it.

Larger images

[arfaern]

I often wonder what kind of a result would provide moving players between clubs with the data editor.

So I set off hoping I would prove my own expectations to be wrong, but unfortunately I was right, the game engine is bogus or seriously flawed.

I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) to Millwall, gave Chelsea only 1 M cash and a 30 M dept, stripped roman abramovices resources to 5. However chelsea managed to buy two players.

Chelsea Chelsea squad end season
Chelsea transfers

Millwall squad end season

So here are the results of my test:

End Season Premier Division

End Season Coca-Cola league 1

Now as you can see in the pictures Chelsea did not only survive in the Premiership, it even ended up in 15 place above clubs with significantly better players with only -6 goal difference. Amazing isn't it those managers at Chelsea do miracles (Mourihno got fired half season).

If you look at the Millwall result you will see that the Chelsea super players now in Millwall squad did not have such a perfect season in the Coca cola League 2 (2 divisions under Premiership) wining in around 50% of the games. In a league where they should be able to run circles around all the players, since they are a class or two above all other players.

Quite interesting isn't it?

But wait that is not it, Chelsea even managed to get to the Championship League Semi Finals. Yes that is right the Chelsea squad consisting of young players with the ability of only 80, have managed to beat the likes of Arsenal, Barcelona, Lyon, Werder and etc.

Here it is:

Stages

First knockout

Quater

Semi

Remarkable success for Chelsea isn't it?

And let's look at the two top players of the Chelsea squad:

Cummings

Nielsen

Great goal scoring with so low attributes right?

I only wonder what I could against such incredible managers the SI put into this game.

Thank you SI for this game engine it is absolutely brilliant, it produces such wonderful results for the AI.


Finaly I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics it the game, thank you very much.

PS. I have the save game, the database used to create this so if anyone disbelieves me, I will be more than glad to upload it.

Larger images

[Jimbokav1971]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you explain that please.

If the range is 1 to -200, how do you move players above 80 ?

[Jimbokav1971]

My first instinct was that this was a load of old twaddle, but it seems that you in fact raise some very valid points .

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I opened the data editor, and moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that had the current ability equal or above of 80 (range is 1 -200) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you explain that please.

If the range is 1 to -200, how do you move players above 80 ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry if I was not very coherent, but I was writing the post at 2:30 in the morning.

I mean i moved all the players from the Chelsea squad that have the current ability attribute above or equal of 80 (the current ability attriute can be between min. 1 and max. 200) to Millwall.

[DeadZone]

Yea, I have a feeling Club rep might have something to do with it
Perhaps you should try swapping the reputations around, and see what results you get

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeadZone:
Yea, I have a feeling Club rep might have something to do with it
Perhaps you should try swapping the reputations around, and see what results you get </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I don't give a crap why this is like it is, and what SI did with the game engine, I just wanted to show that the game engine is rigged.

Your point is right that it seams that the engine relies on the rep of the clubs to even things out.

I would like to hear a official comment from SI on this kind of game behavior.

The funny thing is that in the Coca cola league 1, Dider Drogba managed to score only 30 goals in 55 games of he played in the season, and Chech managed to coneced 53. WTF??????

[Jimbokav1971]

With the utmost respect.....

You haven't proved that the match engine is bogus at all.

You have proved that the results that can be achieved by use of the editor are strange. There are too many variables invilved for you to say with any certaintly that the match engine is responsible, (although it would certainly seem to suggest it).

Other factors, (just off the top of my head) that might be influencing this are, standard of training facilities, standard of coaching staff, hidden attributes making "stars" perform below acceptable levels and making "youngsters" overperform.

It is pretty naive of you to ignore all these other factors and concentrate solely on the one are that you wish to. The game isn't that simple unfortunately.

Well done though, you have certainly raised some excellent questions, just don't be too quick to jump to a poorly thought out conclusion.

As for a respomnse from SI, I would hope that you would get one too, but remember that it is Christmas Day and they all have families and lifes of their own too.

Merry Christmas.

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
With the utmost respect.....

You haven't proved that the match engine is bogus at all.

You have proved that the results that can be achieved by use of the editor are strange. There are too many variables invilved for you to say with any certaintly that the match engine is responsible, (although it would certainly seem to suggest it).

Other factors, (just off the top of my head) that might be influencing this are, standard of training facilities, standard of coaching staff, hidden attributes making "stars" perform below acceptable levels and making "youngsters" overperform.

It is pretty naive of you to ignore all these other factors and concentrate solely on the one are that you wish to. The game isn't that simple unfortunately.

Well done though, you have certainly raised some excellent questions, just don't be too quick to jump to a poorly thought out conclusion.

As for a respomnse from SI, I would hope that you would get one too, but remember that it is Christmas Day and they all have families and lifes of their own too.

Merry Christmas. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure if you believe that that Drogba with his stats would score only 24 in 39 league games in Coca cola league 1, and Nielsen with his finishing attribute of 12 score 17 in 33 games in the Premiership.

If that is a realistic simulation of football I will personally go to the SI headquarters and kiss everybody's ass.

[mimland]

I think the club reputation has too much influence on performance. After about 10 years into a season there has been some swapping around in players and some of the upcoming teams has managed to get a decent squad. Unfortunatly a good bunch of players and a good tactic is not enough on too many occations. If your teams reputation doesn't climb at the same rate as the team does it will be a struggle more often than not no matter what you field.

[tingting]

would love to know the number of clear chances created by each teams....i assume u made no chances to the managers of both the teams??

[Jimbokav1971]

I am not saying that it is a realistic simulation of anything.

I am saying that you have done a test and come up with some worrying/results. The problem is the conclusions that you are drawing from these results. You have proved that something is wrong. Unfortunately you have not proved what it is that is wrong.

Do you see what I mean?

If you can be bothered to take the next step, what you need to do is change some other variables to see what else affects the player performances.

Only once you have ruled all the other variables out can you say with any certainty that it is down to the match engine.

DO you see what I mean now?

[DS]

You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?
1. Open the editor
2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.
3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.
4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.
5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time.

Now if it worked correctly (or should I say incorrectly) Andorra should have played like they had crap players. I have noticed this with crap nations, even if you give them good players when matches are simulated in no detail they still play bad.

Why?
Well I think this applies to the opening post as well. Basically when matches are run in no detail then it seems the result is determined by reputation. If the same test was re run with the matches run in detail then I think we would get proper results. If the opening poster wants to he can try it but it will take a lot longer. Just put the detail level on for premier league and championship and go on holiday.

[arfaern]

I never said it was the match engine, I only mentioned the game engine in general.

It is not up to me to find out where the fault is, and I really don't care.

I just wanted to show that the fault exists.

[Jimbokav1971]

Yes you did.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Actually I don't give a crap why this is like it is, and what SI did with the game engine, I just wanted to show that the game engine is rigged.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[DS]

Well it isnt the game engine I guess. It is more the way SI made the game calculate games not run in detail. Seems to be down to reputation. I understand why they did this...because it is faster. But maybe they could figure out a way to factor attributes into it as well while keeping it at the same speed. Now that will require much more efficient code. If they really wanted to do this then they could go and code it it in machine code for all I care. But obviously they wont. Once again it comes down to the fact that even thought the game has a lot of problems, it is still the best football management game on the market and so people keep buying it and since SI keep making money they have no reason to fix it. I ave no problem with that, I would do the same thing. SI is a business after all and they have the right to make money and fair play to them.

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:
You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?
1. Open the editor
2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.
3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.
4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.
5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time.

Now if it worked correctly (or should I say incorrectly) Andorra should have played like they had crap players. I have noticed this with crap nations, even if you give them good players when matches are simulated in no detail they still play bad.

Why?
Well I think this applies to the opening post as well. Basically when matches are run in no detail then it seems the result is determined by reputation. If the same test was re run with the matches run in detail then I think we would get proper results. If the opening poster wants to he can try it but it will take a lot longer. Just put the detail level on for premier league and championship and go on holiday. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok i will start a new game with the same database, and put it in full detail, for england and the continental competitions.

[DS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:
You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?
1. Open the editor
2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.
3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.
4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.
5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time.

Now if it worked correctly (or should I say incorrectly) Andorra should have played like they had crap players. I have noticed this with crap nations, even if you give them good players when matches are simulated in no detail they still play bad.

Why?
Well I think this applies to the opening post as well. Basically when matches are run in no detail then it seems the result is determined by reputation. If the same test was re run with the matches run in detail then I think we would get proper results. If the opening poster wants to he can try it but it will take a lot longer. Just put the detail level on for premier league and championship and go on holiday. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok i will start a new game with the same database, and put it in full detail, for england and the continental competitions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good. I am confident that you will find that realistic results occur like this. Well reasonably realistic results at least. Then we would have shown that the problem is with the simulation of no detail games

[Jimbokav1971]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ok i will start a new game with the same database, and put it in full detail, for england and the continental competitions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the spirit .

None of the "I don't care" malarkey .

If you didn't care you wouldn't be posting about it on Christams Day.

Merry Christmas .

[arfaern]

But what does that mean, that you should watch all the games of your competitors to get the accurate results?

Or that teams like Chelsea can do significantly better than you with players with lower attributes just because they have a better reputation??

Thats BS.

[DS]

yes its obviously a game flaw. But thats why the game forces you to run the games in detail that are in a competition you are part of. So if you are managing an EPL team all EPL matches are run in detail automatically so you get realistic results. But still a huge flaw in the game that non detail games are complete BS.

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ok i will start a new game with the same database, and put it in full detail, for england and the continental competitions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the spirit .

None of the "I don't care" malarkey .

If you didn't care you wouldn't be posting about it on Christams Day.

Merry Christmas . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course I care because this is my favorite game, and apart from tetris is the game i played most, and I am playing it for the last 10 or so years, and I will keep playing, but SI will have to change something to keep me buying the FM 2009.

[arfaern]

So ok I rerun the game with full detail on English competitions and European competitions.

The amazing thing is that Chelsea managed a 13th place in the Premiership, and a quarter final of the Championship League.

So the result are the more or less the same as with the game run without full detail.

So it is not in the detail level of the matches.

[DS]

Wow, that was quicker then I thought. So it is a bit better but also the manager comes into play in this. But it is still unrealistic. Hopefully SI will see this thread.

[Jimbokav1971]

arfaern. If you've got some time on your hands, perhaps you could keep running the experiment and change some of the other variables one by one.

Maybe you could swap the training facilities in one.

Maybe you could swap the coaching setup/manager in one.

Maybe you could swap the club reputations in another.

Not sure about other variables.

Then this will sort of narrow what might be affecting this.

[SkidRo]

it is true that good teams tend to underperform in leagues run with no detail in my current game arsenal finished 6th and i run that league with no detail. so it goes to show even some teams that have great squads still perform crap. oh yeh and inter milan didnt even make champions league thats how **** ther performed in italy - also run in no detail.

[arfaern]

Ha this is complete BS.

Set the reputation of Chelsea squad from 9500 to 1000, and now amazingly they finnish last in the premiership and lose all their games in Championship Leauge goal difference 0-13.

Now I would like to ask SI what has the reputation of the club to do with the result of their games??

[alutac13]

I am not too suprised that they finished 15th with rubbish players. The match engine is seriously biased against certain formations/tactics so those managers that used those will lose most of the time no matter how much better there players are. for example Pourtsmouth who were european contenders for 3 season straight are now in the relegation zone thanks to using a 3-5-2 formation.

[Soton]

In the data editor there is something like "Team Stats." Where the teams ability to perform the offside trap, the ability to use a play maker etc. are all given 1-20.

I think these stats might be factored into results, which is bogus.

[lil ole me]

that is amazing m8..........I know this is true for a fact as i made a non league side with 9000 reputation with the same squad as when the game starts and my side win the league amazingly by massive points but when i put the players on max CA with a very low reputation i am amazingly 30-1 outsiders on most games??????????

i give up

[ViG1980]

Arfaern, nice little expiriment.

Anyway, I think this is interesting and that maybe SI can divulge whether or not it is true that reputation is playing a role in the results as it does take quite a bit out of the game. For example, if a new owner buys a team that is somewhat big and has the potential to be bigger, they will never achieve this if their reputation is not high enough at the off!

[acf69]

This pretty much gives me more reasons to believe that the match engine indeed is based on only a few variables and everything else is window dressing to pretend one can influence.

Just take the CA of all players and Club Reputation, mix in some additions/substractions based on fitness level, morale and tactics and voila.

[RubenJ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:
Ha this is complete BS.

Set the reputation of Chelsea squad from 9500 to 1000, and now amazingly they finnish last in the premiership and lose all their games in Championship Leauge goal difference 0-13.

Now I would like to ask SI what has the reputation of the club to do with the result of their games?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tbh, reputation is an important factor irl too.

If Anderlecht play against Barcelona for example, they will always start the match very cautious and very defensive.

Now, the game doesn't recognize the fact that chelsea has rubbish players (because normally a high rep is always accompanied by good players), so the oppostition will still act as if they are playing a very strong team based on reputation.

You created a situation that would never happen in the first place, so the game struggles to deal with it as can be expected. In other words, your experiment does not prove anything besides the fact that reputation is important for AI vs AI matches, which is not anything other than normal IMO.

[delibey]

This doesn't show anything about the match engine. arfaern clearly says it's "the game engine" that's troubling.

arfaern: Is there any way you can view Chelsea's matches and report what's been going on? I'm guessing if you could you'd see a completely normal match(by FM08 standards) but simply Chelsea's players converting chances as if they were the original and better players. How are matches we don't see simulated? Is there a different match engine that uses reputation instead of attributes? Is there no match engine and the game simply churns out results based on reputation? That would make sense because it helps create realistic results in the grand scale of things in leagues you don't see or care. But obviously it's very unrealistic that player abilities(or anything else for that matter) play no part in getting a team and reputation does all the work. That's just not good.

[Mikealdo]

Right.

So I could conceivably find the most obscure club in existance in the editor, transfer all their players to Real Madrid, removing all their original superstars...and your research indicates that the club reputation variable would intercede and ensure that Crap Madrid would still compete close to their usual level??

If this is true, then attributes, and by consequence, scouting & buying players takes on an irrelevance.

Arfaern, I really hope you continue this thread and perform additional experiments on the game engine. If what you've already suggested should turn out to be conclusive...then this game can go to hell.

I'll be going back to Oblivion.

[Greg Andrade]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:
You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?
1. Open the editor
2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.
3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.
4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.
5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you remove the players' actual attributes in all categories? If you change PA and CA, but you do not remove the individual attribute figures, then I think the game will use the attribute figures and compute a correct CA based on those. So changing the CA would be a waste of time, and that may be why you saw some of the results you did.

[Lucho_]

I'm happy to see more people doing experiments with FM.

As advice, you should check out the Challenges/Sign-Ups/Holiday Games forum, since lots of what people are wondering in this thread has already been answered in experiments done in that forum, and it would also give you some ideas about how to do this experiment in a better way.

Good luck!

[elsgouro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Tbh, reputation is an important factor irl too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agry with RubenJ.

Reputation is a main factor IRL, and can determine many aspects of a game - the ref's decisions, the way the opponent is facing a high rep team, even the way the players motivate themselves playing for a high rep club or the opposite (and many other aspects, of course, more important or not).

The problem is if the AI calculates the results based on reputation ONLY, which is the wrong way, IMO.

[marx]

I started a game with Premiership only on small database. After start I used FMM to lower reputation of Arsenal to 1. I went on holidays till 1 May 2008 (i don't know exactly when Premiership ends). Will report what's going on

[DerbyK]

If I worked for SI, Id be very worried by what's being said in this thread.

Frankly, if this series of experiments comes out with the results it expects, Id be quite happy to never look/touch/buy another game from this series.

[marx]

here are results.
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9485/arsenalpp6.jpg
Despite 2 games to go Arsenal falls to lower league.
Arsenal has sold almost all squad for 42M pounds.

[ViG1980]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marx:
here are results.
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9485/arsenalpp6.jpg
Despite 2 games to go Arsenal falls to lower league.
Arsenal has sold almost all squad for 42M pounds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be fair to Si, i don't think this proves anything. If Arsenal sell all of their squad then no surprise where they end up in the league...

[marx]

Transfers:
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8742/arsenal2fy3.jpg
Main factor of poor form is selling all quality players.
I will try this test with transfers switched off

[James1983]

Wow... Looking at this objectively certainly is worrying. While reputation does influence results IRL to some extent, marx's latest experiment seems to imply that reputation is the sole factor in deciding results in game (providing the reputation was the ONLY thing he changed - having more than one manipulated variable will produce irrelevant results).

[marx]

i didn't change anything else.
This time I will change reputation at 1.9.2007

[DerbyK]

hmmm, this topic certainly raises some questions SI needs to answer...

[yankee_ram]

Hmm just read through all this and I must say there are some things that are worrying to me. If the main thing behind a team getting results is club reputation then the game engine is seriously flawed. I think all these experiments are very telling and look forward to reading further results of them. If the results still keep coming back the way they are now, I will have some thinking to do about next years edition.

[marx]

ok, 1.09.2007 table:
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9756/arsenal3rk2.jpg
I changed reputation and wait on holidays till 12.08.2008

[Lucho_]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James1983:
Wow... Looking at this objectively certainly is worrying. While reputation does influence results IRL to some extent, marx's latest experiment seems to imply that reputation is the sole factor in deciding results in game (providing the reputation was the ONLY thing he changed - having more than one manipulated variable will produce irrelevant results). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the lower reputation made Arsenal sell all of its squad, and that caused the team to perform so poorly. It was probably the bad players, and not the poor reputation that caused the results.

Again, all of this has been done in the Challenges forum.

[Spagbol]

Very worrying.

I'm tempted to run a holiday game after placing ten non-league clubs in the prem with 9000 rep, then minimise the ten remaining prem clubs to 100 rep.

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Greg Andrade:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:
You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?
1. Open the editor
2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.
3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.
4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.
5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you remove the players' actual attributes in all categories? If you change PA and CA, but you do not remove the individual attribute figures, then I think the game will use the attribute figures and compute a correct CA based on those. So changing the CA would be a waste of time, and that may be why you saw some of the results you did. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not remove the players CA I removed the players them selfs

[arfaern]

Did a further test. Just to prove the result was not a fluke I started a new game with the same database, and got more or less the same results, Chelsea finished now 13 in the premiership, and made it to the quarter finals of the Championship League. Up two places in the Premiership and one round less in the Championship League, like I said more or less the same.

But now comes the surprise. Loaded up the same database (same players etc.) and changed the reputation of Chelsea from 9200 to 1000.
The results now you ask?
Chelsea finished dead last in the Premiership, and lost all the games in the Championship League.

So lets review, shall we?
Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=9200:
15/13. Premiership
Semi/quarter final Championship League

Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=1000:
20 Premiership
Lost all games in the Championship League (0/6, goal difference 0/13)

Nice isn't it?

[marx]

ok here are results till 1.1.2008.
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1893/arsenal4am5.jpg
After this date Arsenal has sold all their key players sa next matches doesn't say anything.
As we see Arsenal is seriously underperforming
How long lasts transfer window in England?
In next test I will try to manage Arsenal in transfer window to force them not to sell any players

[Lucho_]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:
Did a further test. Just to prove the result was not a fluke I started a new game with the same database, and got more or less the same results, Chelsea finished now 13 in the premiership, and made it to the quarter finals of the Championship League. Up two places in the Premiership and one round less in the Championship League, like I said more or less the same.

But now comes the surprise. Loaded up the same database (same players etc.) and changed the reputation of Chelsea from 9200 to 1000.
The results now you ask?
Chelsea finished dead last in the Premiership, and lost all the games in the Championship League.

So lets review, shall we?
Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=9200:
15/13. Premiership
Semi/quarter final Championship League

Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=1000:
20 Premiership
Lost all games in the Championship League (0/6, goal difference 0/13)

Nice isn't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have the savegames and the time, please calculate the averaga CA of the teams Chelsea regularly fielded in both games and post them here. Would be interesting to see if they are different or similar.

Thanks!

[marx]

ok third test:
transfer switched off, half a season played
Arsenal is 11, quite bad but not disaster - so it doesn't prove anything yet
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8756/arsenal5rz9.jpg

[Apocalypse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:
Did a further test. Just to prove the result was not a fluke I started a new game with the same database, and got more or less the same results, Chelsea finished now 13 in the premiership, and made it to the quarter finals of the Championship League. Up two places in the Premiership and one round less in the Championship League, like I said more or less the same.

But now comes the surprise. Loaded up the same database (same players etc.) and changed the reputation of Chelsea from 9200 to 1000.
The results now you ask?
Chelsea finished dead last in the Premiership, and lost all the games in the Championship League.

So lets review, shall we?
Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=9200:
15/13. Premiership
Semi/quarter final Championship League

Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=1000:
20 Premiership
Lost all games in the Championship League (0/6, goal difference 0/13)

Nice isn't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

have you tried using the chelsea superstars with only a 1000 team reputation,would be interesting to see them results

[rich_barnes]

right i thought id try this the other way around, so iv made derbys reputation 9999 and gone on holiday, they dont have enough cash to alter the squad much so we shall see how it goes.

[Silver Foxx]

I can't wait to see a reply to this thread when the festive holidays are over. Sports Interactive - I feel you owe a reply to this interesting and comprehensive thread.

Let's hear what S.I.'s version on the above is, I look forward to this.

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Apocalypse:
have you tried using the chelsea superstars with only a 1000 team reputation,would be interesting to see them results </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes i tried that, Chelsea ended up 4 in the premiership trailing by 15 points, knocked out at the first knock out round of the Championship League.

Not a bad result you might say, but normally (game wise) Chelsea takes the premiership by a 5-10 point margin, and makes it to the Championship League semis.

[marx]

still third test
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1298/arsenal6ks0.jpg
all january i was managing Arsenal myself, but on holiday. I managed to stop leaving most of key players, unfortunatelly some of them has signed contract before transfer windwos has opened.
Now i has left Arsenal and will wait till end of season

[jase19]

i'm no saying these arguments aren't valid

but i have got bath city to the championship with a rep of like 3500 and i'm near top half in february (sitting 11th).

granted it was a struggle and i usually snuck in on playoffs and was lucky to get good loan players, but thats just it... i think my loaners did more than my crappy rep ever did.

[James1983]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lucho_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James1983:
Wow... Looking at this objectively certainly is worrying. While reputation does influence results IRL to some extent, marx's latest experiment seems to imply that reputation is the sole factor in deciding results in game (providing the reputation was the ONLY thing he changed - having more than one manipulated variable will produce irrelevant results). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the lower reputation made Arsenal sell all of its squad, and that caused the team to perform so poorly. It was probably the bad players, and not the poor reputation that caused the results.

Again, all of this has been done in the Challenges forum. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aha!Well that would seem obvious, strange that I didn't pick up on it. So reducing the reputation takes a realistic effect - why would the likes of Cesc Fabregas play for an unknown club?

[rich_barnes]

well so far with a reputation of 9999 derby have played 4 and lost 4,

chelsea with a rep of 1 have played 3 drawn 3 but i put that down to the fact that the players all want to leave.

[marx]

third test has ended:
Arsenal survive in Premiership, but ended at 17 place and only 4 points from relegation.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4353/arsenal7kg7.jpg
Here are transfers:
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1654/arsenal8jg1.jpg
They lost a few important players but not so much as in previous tests (7M sold vs 40M) so their power should be enough to gain higher position.

[TGD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marx:
third test has ended:
Arsenal survive in Premiership, but ended at 17 place and only 4 points from relegation.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4353/arsenal7kg7.jpg
Here are transfers:
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1654/arsenal8jg1.jpg
They lost a few important players but not so much as in previous tests (7M sold vs 40M) so their power should be enough to gain higher position. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

mate I can't agree with the test. I believe you have a few points but Arsenal losing Toure is like Chelsea losing Terry. No rosicky either and no replacements. Its obvious Arsenal will struggle.

[marx]

the've sold Thierry Henrie and doesn't struggle...

[RSCA4Ever]

Results calculated by reputation!!! This really disappoints me!
That is such an unrealistic approach to do, because injuries or lack of quality players won't matter at all then for big teams.
This should have been done completely different.
Why not simply add together all the PA's from the 11 starting players from both teams and calculate the games from there?
Also not perfect but at least way better then by reps.
Maybe game speed will be a little slower this way, but the way like it is now is cheating!!!

One question: What happens when you view Chelsea's matches? (if you would happen to have the time and willpower to do so)
You can run them at fastest speed to save time, but if then still they manage to produce a good season with crap players and high rep, then i am seriously disappointed.

[Miles Jacobson]

So, it's Xmas day. I should be spending the time with my family. Instead, I'm on here, looking at another "experiment" and demands for SI to answer in capital letters.

The original poster has run an experiment, but I don't know what parameters have been used. So I've restarted the same experiment and will report back on findins whilst they come in.

What I have done, for the record, is thus.

I've moved all Chelsea players with current ability of more than 85 to Millwall, along with Jose Mourinho (reasons for this below) and installed Avram Grant as Chelsea manager.

I have given Chelsea -£50m, to stop them being able to buy in lots of players. This negative amount gets wiped out pretty much straight away by season ticket revenues, but they still have a tiny transfer budget.

I have given Millwall £30m, so that they are able to pay their wage bill for a while.

I have turned up the full match engine for all matches, apart from reserves, U18's and internationals. This is the only "true" test, on whether this has an affect on the game that you are playing, as it's how the league would be if you were playing in it.

To ensure that it is working in the same way as the game would be for a club that you were managing, I've taken over as Derby manager (in the Prem) and Cheltenham (in League One) and gone on holiday with both teams.

I've moved Mourinho to Millwall because he is used to managing the kinds of players now at Millwall. As we've all seen over many years of football, many managers can't handle "top" players, so those players don't play to their full potential.

I will report back on the progress of this test every couple of months of ingame time. I would appreciate if others can wait until the experiment is finalised before commenting further on this.

As it's taken me a while to type this up, the first results will follow soon. I'll also learn how to use imageshack to put some screenshots up

Happy Mince Pie day to all, even those who have stopped me from spending time with my family on this one day of the year when work really should come second.

[Rcjuk]

[Miles Jacobson]

Please note that I have NOT touched the reputation (which someone just asked me about on MSN) for either side.

As of 12th September

Chelsea - 6 matches played. 0 wins. 0 goals scored. 31 goals against. This includes a 9-0 loss against Man Utd in the community shield, and a 11-0 loss against Arsenal.

Milwall - 7 matches played. 7 wins. 36 goals scored. 0 goals against. This includes an 8-0 win against Oldham, 7-0 against Bournemouth, and 6-0 against Leeds.

Screenshots are uploading as I type. Will post those links, along with the next set of results, once I get to Xmas in the game.

Rcjuk - why the sad face?

[RSCA4Ever]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
So, it's Xmas day. I should be spending the time with my family. Instead, I'm on here, looking at another "experiment" and demands for SI to answer in capital letters.

The original poster has run an experiment, but I don't know what parameters have been used. So I've restarted the same experiment and will report back on findins whilst they come in.

What I have done, for the record, is thus.

I've moved all Chelsea players with current ability of more than 85 to Millwall, along with Jose Mourinho (reasons for this below) and installed Avram Grant as Chelsea manager.

I have given Chelsea -£50m, to stop them being able to buy in lots of players. This negative amount gets wiped out pretty much straight away by season ticket revenues, but they still have a tiny transfer budget.

I have given Millwall £30m, so that they are able to pay their wage bill for a while.

I have turned up the full match engine for all matches, apart from reserves, U18's and internationals. This is the only "true" test, on whether this has an affect on the game that you are playing, as it's how the league would be if you were playing in it.

To ensure that it is working in the same way as the game would be for a club that you were managing, I've taken over as Derby manager (in the Prem) and Cheltenham (in League One) and gone on holiday with both teams.

I've moved Mourinho to Millwall because he is used to managing the kinds of players now at Millwall. As we've all seen over many years of football, many managers can't handle "top" players, so those players don't play to their full potential.

I will report back on the progress of this test every couple of months of ingame time. I would appreciate if others can wait until the experiment is finalised before commenting further on this.

As it's taken me a while to type this up, the first results will follow soon. I'll also learn how to use imageshack to put some screenshots up

Happy Mince Pie day to all, even those who have stopped me from spending time with my family on this one day of the year when work really should come second. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG Miles, i never expected anyone from SI on this day actually testing this!
You workaholic!

Merry Christmas to you to!

[Ste123]

*waits for the results*

Miles go get a drink and spend time with ur family.

Merry Christmas

[Kristian]

Miles, though their are serious problems with the FM08 match engine (IMO, and stated many times!) I don't think anyone could seriously expect or wish that you would be working on this today.

My advice (for what little it's worth): Switch PC off, go see family, eat turkey sandwiches and then when you're back at work get the team back doing what you do best rather than reacting to slightly ridiculous "proofs" on the forum.

All the best for 2008 to yourself, your family and all at SI

[jase19]

Miles, put the keyboard down and go spend time with your family. this thread can wait until tomorrow, surely.

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Please note that I have NOT touched the reputation (which someone just asked me about on MSN) for either side.

As of 12th September

Chelsea - 6 matches played. 0 wins. 0 goals scored. 31 goals against. This includes a 9-0 loss against Man Utd in the community shield, and a 11-0 loss against Arsenal.

Milwall - 7 matches played. 7 wins. 36 goals scored. 0 goals against. This includes an 8-0 win against Oldham, 7-0 against Bournemouth, and 6-0 against Leeds.

Screenshots are uploading as I type. Will post those links, along with the next set of results, once I get to Xmas in the game.

Rcjuk - why the sad face? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am more than glad to provide the database and the save game for all that I have done with the editor.

[arrogantio]

Now that's dedication from Miles...

Miles' initial results are more consistent with the results of other AI experiments than the original posters'.

Anyway, reputation should affect the outcome of a match - it has a big impact on tactical decisions. Essentially the original experiment, even if it was run with the correct match engine detail settings, is based around unrealistic parameters: opposition managers and players still think that a decimated Chelsea squad is world class and a Millwall Allstars XI is average. If everyone involved persisted with this blinkered view all the way through the season, then I think it's quite plausible that Millwall would win promotion without ever looking a class above the rest of the division and Chelsea's much-feared youths would scrape enough points together to survive relegation.

[Miles Jacobson]

First batch of screenshots as a slideshow

http://img176.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img...7/1198614584g90.smil

RSCA4Ever - yes, I am a workaholic. What makes it worse is that I'm meant to be having my first holiday in 4 years at the moment too...

Ste123 - I've left my family at my Sisters house, so am back to do this now...

Kristian - this test is nothing to do with the match engine.

Jase19 - to be honest, I don't think it can be left til tomorrow. The more things like this spring up, the more negativity is spread, and I can't leave it unanswered.

Afaern - not needed, but thanks for the offer. I think I know where you've gone "wrong" with your experiment as a user would play the game, and that is that your detail settings are low to non-existant for inactive leagues, and you haven't added a manager in. Therefore all of your matches will have bypassed the match engine, only using the quick match engine which is used for inactive leagues. What you may have done with your experiment is show up some flaws in the quick match engine, but this would have no affect whatsoever on someone playing the game, as all of the matches in the division that they are playing in, and all the competitions that the team they are managing are playing in, would be using the full match engine to play out the matches.

It certainly hasn't proved anything with regards on why you seem to be finding the game hard to play, as you aren't playing the game when you run your test! If my test results are different to yours (which they certainly seem to be at the moment), it will show that it is your team or tactics that is the problem for why you are finding it hard though!

[arfaern]

So basically you are saying, that manager relay on club reputation, rather the players quality to decide how to play against them?

Does not that seam wrong to you?

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
First batch of screenshots as a slideshow

http://img176.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img...7/1198614584g90.smil

RSCA4Ever - yes, I am a workaholic. What makes it worse is that I'm meant to be having my first holiday in 4 years at the moment too...

Ste123 - I've left my family at my Sisters house, so am back to do this now...

Kristian - this test is nothing to do with the match engine.

Jase19 - to be honest, I don't think it can be left til tomorrow. The more things like this spring up, the more negativity is spread, and I can't leave it unanswered.

Afaern - not needed, but thanks for the offer. I think I know where you've gone "wrong" with your experiment as a user would play the game, and that is that your detail settings are low to non-existant for inactive leagues, and you haven't added a manager in. Therefore all of your matches will have bypassed the match engine, only using the quick match engine which is used for inactive leagues. What you may have done with your experiment is show up some flaws in the quick match engine, but this would have no affect whatsoever on someone playing the game, as all of the matches in the division that they are playing in, and all the competitions that the team they are managing are playing in, would be using the full match engine to play out the matches.

It certainly hasn't proved anything with regards on why you seem to be finding the game hard to play, as you aren't playing the game when you run your test! If my test results are different to yours (which they certainly seem to be at the moment), it will show that it is your team or tactics that is the problem for why you are finding it hard though! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't find the game especially difficult, and with some effort any human player can beat the game (win against AI managers).

I never claimed that the mistake was in the match engine, just that there was a problem with the game engine aka the game its self somewhere.

[Miles Jacobson]

Arfaern - your test is flawed though if you've been playing it without full detail or managing a club in the league, as the league is inactive. So for someone playing the game, it has no bearing on the human manager, or any competitions that the human manager is playing in.

So your quote of "Finally I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics, it the game" will, if my test carries on in the way it is, then it will disprove your conspiracy theory.

[Miles Jacobson]

It's Xmas Day 2007 in this bizarre experiment.

Millwall
21 matches played in the league.
20 wins.
1 draw (a 0-0 with Leyton Orient).
102 goals for
3 goals against
Drogba has 38 goals in 24 matches, and an average rating of 8.54
They lost to Spurs (away) in the League Cup 3rd round.


Chelsea
18 matches played in the league
0 wins
1 draw (0-0 against Portsmouth)
1 goal for
77 goals against
Knocked out of the league cup by Wolves
Champions League record - pld 6, lost 6, -27 goal difference

Screenshots are a coming. I'll then let it run to the end of the season.

[Miles Jacobson]

Screenshots for above

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?i...xtures2ah8.png

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?i...fixtureur8.png

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?i...gueTable-2.png

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=EnglishPremier...ionLeagueTable-2.png

[TGD]

lol Miles silences the critics. I never doubted fm

[marx]

in meantime i've repeated my test, but this time I've managed Arsenal personally and went to holiday. After lowering reputation at the end of the season Arsenal has finished second.
So for me it proves 3 things:
1)Reputation is important for background matches (being on holidays cause game engine to play "by reputation" all games with teams I'm not managing)
2)Reputation is not very important for matches when you manage team (even if you are in holiday mode). That's why holiday mode lasts much longer when i'm managing team vs when i'm not managing any team)
3)MJ i really workaholic

[RTHerringbone]

Have skimmed through the thread and Miles' recent posts. Surely he has proven that when the game is processing in "normal" detail - i.e. the level at which users play the game, that it is the ability of the players, rather than the reputation of the club, which drives the results? If so, lets all get back to Christmas Day and stop twatting about.

[Gundo]

If I understand it this is just ridiculous. arfaern you ticked non-full match engine or what ever it's called, what did you expect to happen? These basic settings are used to speed up the game, so the player/team swaps you made in the editor aren't going to be recognized or taken into account as such.

The basic settings are used to speed up the game, so you can't expect to see full outcomes and for the game to take all of your changes into account.

This is NO reliable experiment on such detail levels you set imo.


Miles Go get your glass of sherry and turkey sandwich that awaits you.

Merry Christmas All!

[Gundo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marx:
in meantime i've repeated my test, but this time I've managed Arsenal personally and went to holiday. After lowering reputation at the end of the season Arsenal has finished second.
So for me it proves 3 things:
1)Reputation is important for background matches (being on holidays cause game engine to play "by reputation" all games with teams I'm not managing)
2)Reputation is not very important for matches when you manage team (even if you are in holiday mode). That's why holiday mode lasts much longer when i'm managing team vs when i'm not managing any team)
3)MJ i really workaholic </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nail and head.

Good work.

[ViG1980]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jase19:
i'm no saying these arguments aren't valid

but i have got bath city to the championship with a rep of like 3500 and i'm near top half in february (sitting 11th).

granted it was a struggle and i usually snuck in on playoffs and was lucky to get good loan players, but thats just it... i think my loaners did more than my crappy rep ever did. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is different at this is a human managing. We are looking at CPU teams only...

[Miles Jacobson]

Marx - with point 1, if you are managing any team in the league that you are in (not just the team you are testing), or you have full match on, then you the full match engine is used.

RTHerringone - I agree But will carry on til the end of the season as the original poster did.

Gundo - the mince pies are about to go into the oven, and I have some nice vanilla cream to put on them. They should be ready just after the experiment finishes.

And Merry/Happy non denominational festive season to all, whatever festival you may be celebrating at this time of year, have just celebrated, or are just about to celebrate

[Miles Jacobson]

Vig2001 - You aren't. With experiments like this one, you are looking at CPU teams in inactive leagues and competitions, only, which has no bearing on people playing the game. The key word there is "playing", as that is what is meant to be done with computer games.

Any competition that isn't being played in (in other words, doesn't have a human manager in) is inactive, unless full match detail is turned on for that competition.

[RSCA4Ever]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
First batch of screenshots as a slideshow

http://img176.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img...7/1198614584g90.smil

RSCA4Ever - yes, I am a workaholic. What makes it worse is that I'm meant to be having my first holiday in 4 years at the moment too...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please have a great vacation then, one with no internet connections and no phones!

Thanks for testing good to see it doesn't affect the league i play in, so i am very happy for that, because when i first saw this thread i felt a bit disappointed if games would had been decided by reps.

I can see now why you wanted to test this today.
In fact i can understand how it must come over sometimes reading negative posts.
Maybe we all expect perfect games that would be as close to reality as possible.
But we do forget one thing, not one computer game will ever be reality!

I don't have a negative view at all towards the game.
The AI was never this challenging as now imo, and also i do like the new features.
Even the strict board is more realistic then ever, unlike what others say!
In Belgium in the 90's we had a manager (Luca Peruzovic) sacked at mid season, while he was leading the table with 11 points with Anderlecht, because he didn't produce attacking football.
I'm a Anderlecht fan for 30 years now and i think ive seen about 25 different managers there during that time, even while we win titles on regular basis.
07 "maybe" had a better match engine on some parts but 08 certainly has some improvements as well.
Point is FM is still the king of management games!


Arfaern you almost gave me a heart attack today!
Just kidding, but i do got disappointed when i first saw your test.
BTW in above i speak about negative posts, with that i don't mean this one.

Merry Christmas all!

[arfaern]

Ok rerun the same thing with full match detail, and managers in both those leagues, and produced more or less same results as you did, Chelsea managed to get a few draws, Millwall draw also a few etc.

But as I can see from the posts here most of the users don't know what is or where to set the match detail level.

Since the match detail level will be full only in the competitions where you are managing a club, and set by default to none for all else.

So if you pick England, Italy, Spain and France as playable leagues, and manage ex. Man Utd. only English Premiership will be on Full detail by default, all else will be on none.

Thus in Italy, Spain and France the champion will be one of the top teams despite them having somewhat lesser players than other teams in the league.

Is this correct?

[RTHerringbone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:
Ok rerun the same thing with full match detail, and managers in both those leagues, and produced more or less same results as you did, Chelsea managed to get a few draws, Millwall draw also a few etc.

But as I can see from the posts here most of the users don't know what is or where to set the match detail level.

Since the match detail level will be full only in the competitions where you are managing a club, and set by default to none for all else.

So if you pick England, Italy, Spain and France as playable leagues, and manage ex. Man Utd. only English Premiership will be on Full detail by default, all else will be on none.

Thus in Italy, Spain and France the champion will be one of the top teams despite them having somewhat lesser players than other teams in the league.

Is this correct? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because those teams will typically have the better players and so will be more likely to win. If you manage in Spain / Italy, you'll see that Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U are near the top of the English Premier League. That's not because they have "somewhat lesser players than other teams in the league", it's because they have the best players.

[arfaern]

That is a big if.

Because if you progress with game far enough into 2015+ seasons, those clubs will be full of young/new/purchased players which might not be at the top of their rank.

[RTHerringbone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:
That is a big if.

Because if you progress with game far enough into 2015+ seasons, those clubs will be full of young/new/purchased players which might not be at the top of their rank. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair point. On that basis, the experiment would need to continue for 10+ seasons on teams with unedited reputations to see how things pan out.

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Vig2001 - You aren't. With experiments like this one, you are looking at CPU teams in inactive leagues and competitions, only, which has no bearing on people playing the game. The key word there is "playing", as that is what is meant to be done with computer games.

Any competition that isn't being played in (in other words, doesn't have a human manager in) is inactive, unless full match detail is turned on for that competition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you are saying that if played in full match detail the game will use the match engine used to calculate human games, but if played with none detail the game will use some sort of a quick match engine?

Then that means that the quick match engine can return somewhat inaccurate results.

[Miles Jacobson]

arfraen - I don't know if that's correct, but your experiment would suggest that that could be the case if you were trying to break the game, rather than play it in the way it was intended.

As I've said above, it wouldn't affect any human manager playing the game, which is what the game is designed for (playing). So if you moved from England to Spain, then the league you moved to would become the active one by default.

As for saying that users don't know where that option is, it was a feature added some time ago, and should be detailed in the manual. It's listed under preferences.

Do you mind if I change the subject to add "(conspiracy theory disproved on page 2 of the thread)" please?