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Thread: A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

  1. #3901
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    This is a bad idea, I have always bought the game as it's not that expensive, but I know of certain software which is 10 times the price of FM which has been successfully hacked, and I think if Adobe and Microsoft can't stop the hackers from pirating their software, then (with no disrespect to steam and SI) don't have a chance in hell of keeping hackers obey. In my opinion this is just adding a further annoyance to buying the game and people will prefer to just download (an inevitable) pirated version instead.

    Also, what's the bets on the servers being too full to activate until about midnight of release day, like a few versions ago!!!!

  2. #3902
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    Quote Originally Posted by Do you like dogs? View Post
    Uh.... No.
    And I suppose you prefer overpriced machines that are impossible to upgrade, about three times the price of a PC I can build with those specs, and a company who has employed millions of sheep to purchase their goods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tedlotus View Post
    Also, what's the bets on the servers being too full to activate until about midnight of release day, like a few versions ago!!!!
    Don't worry, Steam has greatly upgraded the servers. It's launched some of the biggest releases in PC history recently such as Portal 2. The servers are made out for this now, you'll be fine.

  4. #3904
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    And I suppose you prefer overpriced machines that are impossible to upgrade, about three times the price of a PC I can build with those specs, and a company who has employed millions of sheep to purchase their goods.
    I can do both but prefer Macs nowadays. I don't game much outside of FM nowadays, but I do design websites and graphics as part of my business. Macs are far more advanced in these areas and are, from my perspective, worth the extra cost. I also network throughout the house with Macs and PCs. Not had a moment's trouble from any Mac, but Windows networking drives me nuts! If, however, I went back to proper gaming, I'd build a PC desktop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    I can do both but prefer Macs nowadays. I don't game much outside of FM nowadays, but I do design websites and graphics as part of my business. Macs are far more advanced in these areas and are, from my perspective, worth the extra cost. I also network throughout the house with Macs and PCs. Not had a moment's trouble from any Mac, but Windows networking drives me nuts! If, however, I went back to proper gaming, I'd build a PC desktop.
    Macs are no doubt very good for designing websites and graphics. I just don't know how I, personally, could justify spending that much money for a Mac. If that's what you do for a living, no doubt, Macs are going to be the better option in the long term, but for me, I prefer Windows 7 over any Apple OS.

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    Don't want to start a Mac Vs PC war. So here's my two cents on it. And it's just my opinion and a valid one, with over 12 years using both PC and Mac for design.

    I also do websites and graphics, and I can attest that PCs have come a long way over the last 10 years. Spend the money you spend on a Mac for a PC, and you'll get roughly the same experience. Actually in a PC you could get better everything in hardware for the same price as a Mac.

    I use a PC and Mac for my work and I don't notice any difference at all in performance of one over the other. Whether I'm doing flash animations, editing video, or creating magazines. Both run equally well, with each having their own quirks. Both have the exact same system specs.


    Thing is people go in and buy a PC off the shelf. They buy the cheapest one for €350 say. As "it will do". They cry about it being crap after a few months. Someone recommends a mac, they go out and spend €900 on a Mac. And all of sudden "Macs are great". If they had spent €600 on a proper PC first they wouldn't have had a problem.


    Problem really lies in that people don't know what they're buying. What the different specs mean and things like that. What I do like about the Macs is that they are never under spec'd and really built to last. That's because Apple control that very tightly.

    With a PC, it can be any brand, any choice of hardware lumped together, any old price thrown it, and nobody is really regulating it or keeping tight control. So of course you get bogus PCs and bad user experience.

    So in that regards, people may be better off spending a bit more on a Mac for that piece of mind of quality guarantee.

    *sorry prefixed and suffixed my post*
    Last edited by Eugene Tyson; 28-09-2011 at 14:08.

  7. #3907
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    Macs are no doubt very good for designing websites and graphics. I just don't know how I, personally, could justify spending that much money for a Mac. If that's what you do for a living, no doubt, Macs are going to be the better option in the long term, but for me, I prefer Windows 7 over any Apple OS.
    Someone I work with only buys Macs, but has Windows 7 installed as the primary OS on all of them. Now, that IS pointless.

    My own perspective is that once you adapt to OSX, it is more intuitive than Windows. You also get the advantage of easy install, almost universal plug'n'play, plus, if you buy Pathfinder, the best file browsing system known to man. I find Windows very bloated beside it. If I bought a gaming PC, I'd strip Windows down as far as it can go, install Firefox and Steam , and only run those and games. Everything else I'd do through a Mac.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    So in that regards, people may be better off spending a bit more on a Mac for that piece of mind of quality guarantee.
    The funny thing is it's really not a bit more. It's a lot more . You could just ask a hardware enthusiast on a tech forum to help you with a build that fits your budget and voila. For example, the most expensive iMac seems to be $1999. With that money, I could have you a rig with an i7 2600k, a 590, an SSD, 8gb of 1600 ram. I'm against Macs for the people who automatically think they're great because of what they have purchased in the past with no research. And I also can't stand the sheep that go and purchase everything Apple. For example, an iPad wasn't the first tablet, yet people have started calling tablets iPads which really sickens me. The only reason you should be purchasing a Mac in my opinion is if you do something similar to what wwfan does. And even then I can do it fine on Windows 7 as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    And I suppose you prefer overpriced machines that are impossible to upgrade, about three times the price of a PC I can build with those specs, and a company who has employed millions of sheep to purchase their goods.
    Well, none of that is true (but please keep spreading half-truths and misinformation about Mac, but in retort, I suppose you prefer acting smarmy and trying to break down (in typical pseudo-intellectual fashion nontheless) anyone with an opinion that differs your own. Funny though that you refer to them as "sheep," perhaps the same could apply to you about Steam? Food for thought.

    But in all seriousness, are you an employee of Steam or something? What is with the foaming-at-the-mouth, jumping in front of bullets defense of them?

    OMG, someone doesn't like Steam! Go get them Dune!

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    I know the sheep drive me insane too. They really don't know what they're buying, they're just told it's better and they go with that.

    As I say I know people who spent €400 on a computer. Then 6 months later spent €700 on a new computer. Then still weren't satisfied so then went out and bought a Mac for €1600.

    From my research lately - I can buy a laptop for €1,500 that is better than the Macbook Pro 17 inch that starts at €2500

    I can get a laptop 17 inch screen that is almost identical in specs to the Macbook Pro (a bit lower) for €900


    Personally that's why I don't buy Macs, the Price is way too high for what you get. Yeh 10/15 years ago they were needed because PCs weren't up to scratch, for design.

    But nowadays they PC is on par in terms of specs. And a bit of research you can find a computer just as good for 1/3 the price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Do you like dogs? View Post
    Well, none of that is true (but please keep spreading half-truths and misinformation about Mac, but in retort, I suppose you prefer acting smarmy and trying to break down (in typical pseudo-intellectual fashion nontheless) anyone with an opinion that differs your own. Funny though that you refer to them as "sheep," perhaps the same could apply to you about Steam? Food for thought.

    But in all seriousness, are you an employee of Steam or something? What is with the foaming-at-the-mouth, jumping in front of bullets defense of them?

    OMG, someone doesn't like Steam! Go get them Dune!
    Pretty sure you can't go out and buy parts for a Mac, so I have to assume it is true... And indeed, Steam, a company that's already beyond rich, paid me to sit here on these forums and seduce people into using Steam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    And indeed, Steam, a company that's already beyond rich, paid me to sit here on these forums and seduce people into using Steam.
    If they're not paying you then might I suggest a real job or perhaps a hobby?

  13. #3913
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    Quote Originally Posted by Do you like dogs? View Post
    If they're not paying you then might I suggest a real job or perhaps a hobby?
    Already have myself a hobby. Thanks for thinking of me though !

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    Pity somebody won't make FM work properly with Linux

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    Macs can indeed be upgraded quite easily. It's just a motherboard same as any other computer. You have to research the motherboard and what parts it can handle.

    Personally I've repaired, upgraded, and stripped down 100's of Macs over the years.

    Same with PCs.

    Funny enough, had more issues with Mac hard drives in the past 10 years. Disc Warrior has saved my ass so many times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    Pity somebody won't make FM work properly with Linux
    i read a few threads on the steam forum about them getting steam to work with Linux so you never know it might be possible sometime soon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    Pity somebody won't make FM work properly with Linux
    It will run on my Amiga thought - right???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Macs can indeed be upgraded quite easily. It's just a motherboard same as any other computer. You have to research the motherboard and what parts it can handle.

    Personally I've repaired, upgraded, and stripped down 100's of Macs over the years.

    Same with PCs.

    Funny enough, had more issues with Mac hard drives in the past 10 years. Disc Warrior has saved my ass so many times.
    Aren't they much more painful to upgrade as opposed to PCs though?

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    Nope. Same amount of pain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Nope. Same amount of pain.
    Ah, never knew that . Thanks for letting me know .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    Yea, but that's the same number of people that saw the ads last year.

    Milner was saying that somehow making the game require Steam to activate means that more people will have the opportunity to buy it. Which clearly doesn't make sense.

    Also, a reduction in choice is a step backwards, not forwards.

    That's been the motto of the 21st century will. Technology improves but businesses use it to limit the consumer, rather than expanding their options*

    * Obviously doesn't apply to every single technology advancement, but in regards to consoles, gaming, some mobile phone advancements and so on.
    This is a great post, I simply cannot believe that some people actually swallow what is said from the top without looking at a bigger picture here. The general attitude on the pro-side is that other companies are much worse with unilock and what not, just because everyone else is 'jumping off the cliff' then SI/SEGA should do the same. Good products and good marketing that coincides with a good résumé is how you sell products - restrictions do not... (ask anyone with half a marketing brain)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    And I suppose you prefer overpriced machines that are impossible to upgrade, about three times the price of a PC I can build with those specs, and a company who has employed millions of sheep to purchase their goods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    Pretty sure you can't go out and buy parts for a Mac, so I have to assume it is true... And indeed, Steam, a company that's already beyond rich, paid me to sit here on these forums and seduce people into using Steam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    Aren't they much more painful to upgrade as opposed to PCs though?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    Ah, never knew that . Thanks for letting me know .
    If only you'd known that before making your first statement. I don't quite get what this has to do with FM12 activation though!

  23. #3923
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    Can someone from Sega answer this question for me please,

    Will you consider getting rid of the Steam issue for FM2013 if it proves a big issue for sales of FM2012 ?

  24. #3924
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    "Steamsh*t"? Calling it a virus? Really? Do you understand what Steam is and has done? Steam is the program that has saved PC Gaming. Steam is the program that took hundreds of indie developers under their wing and made some of them millions, such as Frostbyte. Believe it or not, without Steam, you might be playing FM on console as that's where the sales would be. Steam is the #1 digital distribution service in the world, and believe it or not, it's as far from a virus as it can be. I'd love to hear how it's a virus if you can explain such to me, as I've been using it for 7 years and have bought 263 items from it. It's never failed and is probably my favorite little program. So once again, why don't you tell me how this is a "virus" or "sh*t"?
    Complete nonsense from start to finish (apart from the "virus" comment). Steam exists because of PC games, if PC games ever only exist due to Steam it will be because Steam out manouvered other retailers in the market place. Do not be dumb enough to confuse agressive sucessful Corporate bully-marketting with quality of product.
    Please dont state nonsense as fact in this forum, especially if you have a pro Steam bias (understandable if your experiences are all good, by the way). I agree some seem to hate Steam in here, and some dont justify their vitriol but many, many others have the issue with enforced DRM, not Steam per se - although a few of us have had problems with Steam already after only a few days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrottop View Post
    Clearly I didn't respond to your specific issues in my post above, so could I ask what your specific issue is with Steam that you think is so bad that it's worth pirating the game over? Perhaps there's a solution that doesn't involve adding to the piracy statistics that lead to even more restrictive anti-piracy techniques. (I'll also point out that Steam is a strong reliable service. When a developer uses a third party program, they're unlikely to find one as reliable as Steam. Something that day-one purchasers of The Witcher 2 discovered when they used a third party system from Namco Bandai (a large games company, not a tiny one, but a company that didn't have a system as robust as Steam) and discovered that they couldn't play the game at all until a patch was released removing this activation. Something that the developers are now in court because Namco are telling them they should not have removed it)
    Steam is not reliable! read the previous 38 pages!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    If only you'd known that before making your first statement. I don't quite get what this has to do with FM12 activation though!
    Because he brought up how Apple was a better OS than windows if you read a bit back. I still have two other points in there as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post

    1. Please dont state nonsense as fact
    2. you have a pro Steam bias
    3. although a few of us have had problems with Steam already after only a few days.
    1. Same to be said for you
    2. Vice versa for you
    3. I'd consider that a PEBKAC issue

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    Steam is not reliable! read the previous 38 pages!
    And again vice versa. Most that have issues are due to PEBKAC issues


    (PEBKAC = problem exists between keyboard and chair is intended as a bit of light humour)

  28. #3928
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    Complete nonsense from start to finish (apart from the "virus" comment). Steam exists because of PC games, if PC games ever only exist due to Steam it will be because Steam out manouvered other retailers in the market place. Do not be dumb enough to confuse agressive sucessful Corporate bully-marketting with quality of product.
    Please dont state nonsense as fact in this forum, especially if you have a pro Steam bias (understandable if your experiences are all good, by the way). I agree some seem to hate Steam in here, and some dont justify their vitriol but many, many others have the issue with enforced DRM, not Steam per se - although a few of us have had problems with Steam already after only a few days.
    Hardly nonsense. Steam has saved PC gaming. I suggest you read some articles on developers comments about Steam as well as have a look at some graphs that show how PC gaming is growing (mainly because of digital sales.)

    http://www.destructoid.com/croteam-p...m-158329.phtml

    http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/08/13/re...g-from-piracy/

    http://theworldaccordingtojay.blogsp...pc-gaming.html

    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=25595

    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009...-distribution/

    http://www.extremetech.com/wp-conten...ta-640x357.jpg (Mainly thanks to Steam)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    Hardly nonsense. Steam has saved PC gaming. I suggest you read some articles on developers comments about Steam as well as have a look at some graphs that show how PC gaming is growing (mainly because of digital sales.)

    http://www.destructoid.com/croteam-p...m-158329.phtml

    http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/08/13/re...g-from-piracy/

    http://theworldaccordingtojay.blogsp...pc-gaming.html

    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=25595

    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009...-distribution/

    http://www.extremetech.com/wp-conten...ta-640x357.jpg (Mainly thanks to Steam)
    Well, if we all had to wipe our bums with Bambi toilet paper (because they were bullying us into it as there are no other toilet paper options anymore) and on top told all of Asia they can't use water anymore (and they actually listened plus we didn't start thinking of this option ourselves) then hell ya, Bambi sales is going to sky-rocket...
    Last edited by Loversleaper; 28-09-2011 at 16:19. Reason: gives a better picture...

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    I'd say Dune is correct here. Prior to cds/dvds, I bought games on floppy disk. And as a naive young man not understanding his actions, I installed the game and returned it to the store for a full refund due to it not being compatible with my system. Shame on me, but I was 9 or 10 or something, I had no clue what my actions were doing.

    When Cds/dvds came along when the internet wasn't available, the game came with a booklet, with some sort of code, Jet Set Willy needed a colour combination code that you had to get from the manual. And some had activation codes, like serial numbers that had to be input. It wasn't long before a friend would have a program that would generate a serial number, or some way to hack past that colour coded option in Jet Set Willy.

    When the internet came along, crack codes for demo software to make them full appeared on the internet, so now people with demos of games could fully initiate them with a code from online.

    Bring on the advent of torrents and things, and you can download cracked versions of games.

    This sort of rip off to the industry has been happening for over 30 years.


    Steam is there to try and delay it or even stop it in some cases. It provides a wealth of games and community options for people that enjoy online gaming. And now some gaming companies are seeing an advantage in having a system in place to Authenticate purchases of the game.


    I honestly don't know why people have so many issues with Steam. It baffles me. I just installed it a few years ago and it always ran, flawlessly I might add. I recently reset my computer. Reloaded Steam and everything was there for me.


    I don't really know what else to say. Except, and I've said this before - You have plenty of time to sort out your Steam issues. You have been informed that you need Steam and an Internet Connection to authenticate the game. So you have plenty of time to get this working. Just like the other 35,000,000 users of Steam that have no issues with it. And you also have plenty of time to sort out how to solve Offline Mode issues.

    All the support is here for you. Either through these forums, or through Steam forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    Steam is not reliable! read the previous 38 pages!
    Steam was unreliable for years and I'll attest to that in a second! But it has had time to mature and develop and these days it's very reliable. This is -especially- true compared to alternative solutions. First example that comes to mind is Ubisoft's servers going down and only the pirates being able to play Assassin's Creed 2 for... A week? I can't remember.
    Steam has also recently taken a -huge- upgrade in server quality. IF your only experience of Steam is a few years old, you're perfectly justified in thinking it's unreliable (I used it for the first thing that ever used it, Counterstrike 1.6 and believe me, I refused to use Steam for anything until Half Life 2 -required- it even with my boxed copy. I complained, much like people here.) However, over recent years it's gone up in leaps and bounds...

    Also, yeah, Steam is responsible for huge leaps and bounds for indie gaming and keeping PC gaming a little bit stronger at a time when PC gaming showed a real damaging hit to sales.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    Well, if we all had to wipe our bums with Bambi toilet paper (because they were bullying us into it as there are no other options anymore) and on top told all of Asia they can't use water anymore (and they actually listened) then hell ya, Bambi sales is going to sky-rocket...
    I assume you are talking about FM, in which case, has another option. Don't buy it?


    Another interesting article I found.
    http://www.neoseeker.com/news/14691-...m-going-under/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    1. Same to be said for you
    2. Vice versa for you
    3. I'd consider that a PEBKAC issue



    And again vice versa. Most that have issues are due to PEBKAC issues


    (PEBKAC = problem exists between keyboard and chair is intended as a bit of light humour)

    1. I never have (never quoted stats to back up my points and often state that opinion in here, including my own, is to be considered totally representative of the norm.)
    2. I have issues with enforced DRM, not Steam. But in my experience Steam does not work properly - it is that simple! (and we all remember Uniloc's failings 3 years ago whilst on the subject)
    3. Pro Steamers keep telling those of us with Steam problems to do this and do that and upgrade this and download that. None or which is proven 100% succesful. Read back to SI mods posting "oh yeah just do this" then posting a while later "that shouldnt happen, they should fix this". Errr, yes you'd think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scab View Post
    Sorry if you feel like you're going around in circles, I must've missed those posts. Beats me, then. As long as the credentials are there it's supposed to play ball. Better luck with the new laptop I guess. :/
    Thats not very hard now is it when were up to 40 pages...

    Loversleaper - i assume you tired the case sensitive solution...ever since i did that i have been playing FM for days with my internet switched off, i even managed to play on my lunch hour in works car park! You really do have my sympathy mate...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    Macs are no doubt very good for designing websites and graphics. I just don't know how I, personally, could justify spending that much money for a Mac. If that's what you do for a living, no doubt, Macs are going to be the better option in the long term, but for me, I prefer Windows 7 over any Apple OS.
    Saying that Macs are better for graphics and designing than PCs is a relic of a myth that is only extended by those who buy Macs.

    There is absolutely no justifiable reason for someone to buy a Mac over a PC other than they just want one. (Which is a good enough reason for me.)

    If you spend the same amount of money on a PC that you would on a Mac, you'll get a hell of a lot better machine (especially if you build the computer yourself!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    Saying that Macs are better for graphics and designing than PCs is a relic of a myth that is only extended by those who buy Macs.

    There is absolutely no justifiable reason for someone to buy a Mac over a PC other than they just want one. (Which is a good enough reason for me.)

    If you spend the same amount of money on a PC that you would on a Mac, you'll get a hell of a lot better machine (especially if you build the computer yourself!).
    Exactly my thinking besides the last little bit of the second sentence , except I'm attempting to be a little reasonable here seeing how so many people use Macs on these forums .
    Last edited by Dune297; 28-09-2011 at 15:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    I'd say Dune is correct here. Prior to cds/dvds, I bought games on floppy disk. And as a naive young man not understanding his actions, I installed the game and returned it to the store for a full refund due to it not being compatible with my system. Shame on me, but I was 9 or 10 or something, I had no clue what my actions were doing.

    When Cds/dvds came along when the internet wasn't available, the game came with a booklet, with some sort of code, Jet Set Willy needed a colour combination code that you had to get from the manual. And some had activation codes, like serial numbers that had to be input. It wasn't long before a friend would have a program that would generate a serial number, or some way to hack past that colour coded option in Jet Set Willy.

    When the internet came along, crack codes for demo software to make them full appeared on the internet, so now people with demos of games could fully initiate them with a code from online.

    Bring on the advent of torrents and things, and you can download cracked versions of games.

    This sort of rip off to the industry has been happening for over 30 years.


    Steam is there to try and delay it or even stop it in some cases. It provides a wealth of games and community options for people that enjoy online gaming. And now some gaming companies are seeing an advantage in having a system in place to Authenticate purchases of the game.


    I honestly don't know why people have so many issues with Steam. It baffles me. I just installed it a few years ago and it always ran, flawlessly I might add. I recently reset my computer. Reloaded Steam and everything was there for me.


    I don't really know what else to say. Except, and I've said this before - You have plenty of time to sort out your Steam issues. You have been informed that you need Steam and an Internet Connection to authenticate the game. So you have plenty of time to get this working. Just like the other 35,000,000 users of Steam that have no issues with it. And you also have plenty of time to sort out how to solve Offline Mode issues.

    All the support is here for you. Either through these forums, or through Steam forums.
    I didnt realise Steam was a white knight on a charger coming to save us all! If only Post #1 had made that clear.

    Not sure offers of support to help navigate around shortcomings of something I didnt want in the first place are that "exciting" to me though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    1. I never have (never quoted stats to back up my points and often state that opinion in here, including my own, is to be considered totally representative of the norm.)
    2. I have issues with enforced DRM, not Steam. But in my experience Steam does not work properly - it is that simple! (and we all remember Uniloc's failings 3 years ago whilst on the subject)
    3. Pro Steamers keep telling those of us with Steam problems to do this and do that and upgrade this and download that. None or which is proven 100% succesful. Read back to SI mods posting "oh yeah just do this" then posting a while later "that shouldnt happen, they should fix this". Errr, yes you'd think.
    1. No idea what your point is

    2. Well software companies have issues with people nicking their stuff and giving it away for free that they feel they need to manage their rights digitally - somehow. 3 year ago failing? Steam has been updated and works better than it did 3 years ago. And 3 years from now it will work better than it does now - and so on.

    3. I'm not a Pro Steamer. I installed it and never had to do a thing to get it to work as I expected. It pretty much sits there and does what it does while I play games.

    Honestly, I find a lot of the time that people that follow simple instructions often gloss over them or make their own decision on a setting rather than follow the guideline. Granted not all the time, some people do follow them explicitly and still have issues. This then leads to something else being the cause. Like a Firewall Setting, or running a particular anti-virus software that has blocked it somehow. Or lots of other scenarios that I can't really think of off the top of my head.


    It really does suck that you have issues with Steam. And I feel for you. But I still don't know - after I don't know how many pages - what exactly your issue is with Steam is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrottop View Post
    Steam was unreliable for years and I'll attest to that in a second! But it has had time to mature and develop and these days it's very reliable. This is -especially- true compared to alternative solutions. First example that comes to mind is Ubisoft's servers going down and only the pirates being able to play Assassin's Creed 2 for... A week? I can't remember.
    Steam has also recently taken a -huge- upgrade in server quality. IF your only experience of Steam is a few years old, you're perfectly justified in thinking it's unreliable (I used it for the first thing that ever used it, Counterstrike 1.6 and believe me, I refused to use Steam for anything until Half Life 2 -required- it even with my boxed copy. I complained, much like people here.) However, over recent years it's gone up in leaps and bounds...

    Also, yeah, Steam is responsible for huge leaps and bounds for indie gaming and keeping PC gaming a little bit stronger at a time when PC gaming showed a real damaging hit to sales.
    Oh Jeez!, comparing something unreliable to something even more unreliable or saying "its much better than it used to be" is the latest Steamactivation Army War Cry. Heaven help us all!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    I didnt realise Steam was a white knight on a charger coming to save us all! If only Post #1 had made that clear.

    Not sure offers of support to help navigate around shortcomings of something I didnt want in the first place are that "exciting" to me though.
    Better than the PC gaming industry going bust, which was kinda happening. There's a bigger picture here.

    Well if you can't get it to work with all the support that is here for you, nobody from SI Sega or Steam is going to come around to your house.

    If you want to play FM12, you have to have STeam and an Internet Connection. It's up to you to get it working. If you don't want to do that then don't buy FM12. It couldn't be any simpler.

    Decision has been made, you need Steam to play FM12. Either get it working or don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ting2004 View Post
    Been away for a week or so and missed all this fun!

    Approaching 4000 posts on this subject, many users posting multiple messages. Shall we say 2000 unhappy users who are thinking of not buying this years edition?

    All due respect but 2000 missing sales isn't going to make a dent, especially if people are more reluctant/unable to pirate the game and make a purchase (time will tell)

    I admire SI and SEGA for having the balls to try and combat a growing problem for pc games.

    I
    That's maybe just what you can gather from reading this forum (there are also other forums out there with similar talk going on), there are also plenty of people who do not use the forums so what they are going to say about it? Your guess is as good as mine. Add the ones that don't have internet/reliable connections and you will start to see a bigger picture here. Are people really forgetting that the FM gamer is not your normal, typical gamer - they're football fans. Most hard-core gamers don't have that much thought on football (except it's cute how they like to see them bounce them balls of them heads...), show this hard-core croud a FM press conference and you might have them running for the hills...
    Last edited by Loversleaper; 28-09-2011 at 16:08. Reason: spelling error

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Better than the PC gaming industry going bust, which was kinda happening. There's a bigger picture here.

    Well if you can't get it to work with all the support that is here for you, nobody from SI Sega or Steam is going to come around to your house.

    If you want to play FM12, you have to have STeam and an Internet Connection. It's up to you to get it working. If you don't want to do that then don't buy FM12. It couldn't be any simpler.

    Decision has been made, you need Steam to play FM12. Either get it working or don't.
    I'm positive that he got it working earlier and is just waiting for the demo. I recall that in an earlier post of his. I'm not sure why he's still complaining though. Here it is, a post he made earlier.

    I hope you are right. My experience is:
    Friday - cant log in old Steam account (due to software update apparantly)
    Friday- create new account (worked eventually, had problems though due to software upgrade....)
    Saturday - Steam Screenshot Manager starts intruding into the log off process
    Sunday & Monday so far - no problems but havent used Steam since Sat
    Within that same period others have experienced other problems accessing Steam which are well documented in previous posts.

    I have no doubt that these posts only happen when the extraordinary occurs (eg log on problems, or indeed many years use use with no issues - not many services can actually boast that),and that Steam users with no access issues are un likely to search out this thread to state that all is fine so it is impossible to guage any stats on reliability or not of Steam, but the issues discused (Sotware upgrades, ISP interference & "Terrorist" attacks on servers do happen and it is the chance of those which bothers me - a chance percentage I cannot begin to calculate.

    I suspect in ten years there will only be DRM of this type, it will be unproblematic and no one will have any issues with it (pirates aside!) BUT the experiences of the last 4 days suggest right now that reliability is a long way from being assured.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    1. No idea what your point is

    2. Well software companies have issues with people nicking their stuff and giving it away for free that they feel they need to manage their rights digitally - somehow. 3 year ago failing? Steam has been updated and works better than it did 3 years ago. And 3 years from now it will work better than it does now - and so on.

    3. I'm not a Pro Steamer. I installed it and never had to do a thing to get it to work as I expected. It pretty much sits there and does what it does while I play games.

    Honestly, I find a lot of the time that people that follow simple instructions often gloss over them or make their own decision on a setting rather than follow the guideline. Granted not all the time, some people do follow them explicitly and still have issues. This then leads to something else being the cause. Like a Firewall Setting, or running a particular anti-virus software that has blocked it somehow. Or lots of other scenarios that I can't really think of off the top of my head.


    It really does suck that you have issues with Steam. And I feel for you. But I still don't know - after I don't know how many pages - what exactly your issue is with Steam is?
    Dont worry the "point" got lost several posts ago, not worth backtracking- trust me!

    The thing is I make my posts from the position of having problems. It irks those of us with problems to hear overjoyed Steam fans telling us all is fine. We are not telling the Steam faithful that they cannot use Steam remember, we are just saying we think there must be a better way (as we feel Steam is unreliable). For what it is worth I plan to buy the digital release, probably though Steam, activating over breakfast on 21st Oct without leaving the door (all of which sounds great in theory) but my faith is shaken and if the demo download goes nippletassles up I will probably cancel any plan of buying FM12 at all. I hope all surprises going forwards are nice ones, I really do. And thank you for appreciating my frustrations (details posted previously).

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    Oh Jeez!, comparing something unreliable to something even more unreliable or saying "its much better than it used to be" is the latest Steamactivation Army War Cry. Heaven help us all!
    I'm sorry, clearly I didn't phrase it the way I meant. I don't mean "It's better than it used to be" so much as I mean "It used to be bad. Now it is good."
    And I'm simply saying that people are acting like SI made some horrible decision without thought. I'm simply saying that they probably gave it a lot of thought and decided that of all of the alternatives, Steam was the one that provided the best pro:con ratio.

    I am not defending Steam blindly. I am defending Steam with, what I feel are reasonable arguments. I'm sorry that you disagree and think I'm being a blind fan, but the last issue that I've ever had with Steam was the fact that Bioshock didn't unlock (I'd preordered it) until almost the next day... something that turned out to have been 2K's decision. That was about four years ago now. The legitimate argument I -am- hearing from people is that people don't like digital DRM systems. I completely agree that they aren't fun, but I also think they are necessary and have proven time and time again to delay, or reduce piracy. A single online activation is not "treating everyone like a criminal". It's just a simple nod that they're asking for. I don't think it's that much to ask (that said, I refused to buy Ubisoft games or Diablo 3 (when it comes out) because I think those games have crossed the barrier to causing the consumer experience serious harm with their anti-piracy measures. I'm not pro-evil-DRM, but I think that a single online activation isn't asking much... and I'll repeat... a lot of people beg developers to add Steamworks to their games and games often find that the Steam version sells more because people enjoy the benefits... This is not a DRM system without it's benefits.)
    Steam is not perfect. It sucks to have to activate online at all, but it's a two second thing that you were -always- going to have to do with one system or another. I have experienced the classic "Game is not available" error on Steam and it sucks, but I have not had it in years now.

    I guess I'm just saying that people don't act like Steam is a big evil decision that SI made. It's a decision made with customers as their first priority. If not, there are far worse DRM systems they could've used that stop piracy a lot better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Better than the PC gaming industry going bust, which was kinda happening. There's a bigger picture here.

    Well if you can't get it to work with all the support that is here for you, nobody from SI Sega or Steam is going to come around to your house.

    If you want to play FM12, you have to have STeam and an Internet Connection. It's up to you to get it working. If you don't want to do that then don't buy FM12. It couldn't be any simpler.

    Decision has been made, you need Steam to play FM12. Either get it working or don't.
    I agree piracy is a big issue though the loyal FM player who only really plays FM is not the sort of person to look for snide downloads - not saying it never happens but it is unlikely. Those (with all due respect) that have libraries of 266 games (or whatever) are the sort more likely to search for cheapies or freebies (although those of good character will not thieve, I appreciate that).

    This "its done, deal with it" attitude is poor but in line with official SI policy it seems so I cannot blame you for that. I have stated a few times my own FM12 purchasing plans and hope to be presently surprised BUT if it all goes wrong for any technical reason SI can expect a huge backlash - the size and effect of which none of us can anticipate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    Dont worry the "point" got lost several posts ago, not worth backtracking- trust me!

    The thing is I make my posts from the position of having problems. It irks those of us with problems to hear overjoyed Steam fans telling us all is fine. We are not telling the Steam faithful that they cannot use Steam remember, we are just saying we think there must be a better way (as we feel Steam is unreliable). For what it is worth I plan to buy the digital release, probably though Steam, activating over breakfast on 21st Oct without leaving the door (all of which sounds great in theory) but my faith is shaken and if the demo download goes nippletassles up I will probably cancel any plan of buying FM12 at all. I hope all surprises going forwards are nice ones, I really do. And thank you for appreciating my frustrations (details posted previously).
    Just a thing... If you can find the game cheaper in store... I recommend getting that over buying the Steam version just because installing from the DVD will probably be faster than downloading. Even if you have to add time to get out of your PJs and get to the store

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    Tiger - the issue is there's an abundant amount of posts saying "Steam sucks".

    And nobody saying what they think "sucks". It gets into a debate about civil liberties and being forced to install 3rd party software. None of which is anything new on computers. You buy a computer, your first 3rd Party software is the Operating System, Windows or Mac. You then have an internet client, a music client, a video client, etc. and now a game client.

    Yeh SI and Sega went with Steam. But in the first post they said it was their best option and forewent anything for FM10 or FM11 until an acceptable solution was presented to them. They've spent 2 or 3 years on this and figuring out the best option for them AND their customers. And they also said the decision was not made lightly. I take that there was absolute war and battles happened over this in the meetings.

    At the end of the day, it's what we all have to work with. We're all in the same boat. We all have to get it working.

    I'm advocating that any one with issues should really post about what their exact issue is, either here or on the Steam forums. If you don't want to use Steam - then fine. Announce your disposition with DRM and your unwillingness to buy the game. If you're refusing to buy the game because of Steam related issues, I can only urge people to post the exact issue, and contact the support teams already in place, or visit their forums.

    It's black and white for me. If you want to play FM12 you need Steam and Internet. If you don't want to install Steam you can't play FM12. And if you don't have the internet you'll have to figure out a way to get it to Authenticate the game, switch to offline mode and enjoy FM12, or else you won't be able to buy it. It's marked clearly on the box "internet connection necessary". Anyone that hasn't got Internet can't download it anyway. Anyone buying it in the shop will see the warning on the front of the box and can say "I don't have internet that game is not for me".


    Regards to all the people saying "Steam is great and I have no issues" that's simply because they see all the negativity portrayed by people that have a problem with Steam before they even download or try it out or have downloaded it and can't get it to work and refuse to try and fix it but rather complain instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrottop View Post
    I'm sorry, clearly I didn't phrase it the way I meant. I don't mean "It's better than it used to be" so much as I mean "It used to be bad. Now it is good."
    And I'm simply saying that people are acting like SI made some horrible decision without thought. I'm simply saying that they probably gave it a lot of thought and decided that of all of the alternatives, Steam was the one that provided the best pro:con ratio.

    I am not defending Steam blindly. I am defending Steam with, what I feel are reasonable arguments. I'm sorry that you disagree and think I'm being a blind fan, but the last issue that I've ever had with Steam was the fact that Bioshock didn't unlock (I'd preordered it) until almost the next day... something that turned out to have been 2K's decision. That was about four years ago now. The legitimate argument I -am- hearing from people is that people don't like digital DRM systems. I completely agree that they aren't fun, but I also think they are necessary and have proven time and time again to delay, or reduce piracy. A single online activation is not "treating everyone like a criminal". It's just a simple nod that they're asking for. I don't think it's that much to ask (that said, I refused to buy Ubisoft games or Diablo 3 (when it comes out) because I think those games have crossed the barrier to causing the consumer experience serious harm with their anti-piracy measures. I'm not pro-evil-DRM, but I think that a single online activation isn't asking much... and I'll repeat... a lot of people beg developers to add Steamworks to their games and games often find that the Steam version sells more because people enjoy the benefits... This is not a DRM system without it's benefits.)
    Steam is not perfect. It sucks to have to activate online at all, but it's a two second thing that you were -always- going to have to do with one system or another. I have experienced the classic "Game is not available" error on Steam and it sucks, but I have not had it in years now.

    I guess I'm just saying that people don't act like Steam is a big evil decision that SI made. It's a decision made with customers as their first priority. If not, there are far worse DRM systems they could've used that stop piracy a lot better.
    Although you may think your post still is opposed to my position I have to generally agree with all you say therein. I do however believe the decision was Sega's, not SI's but that is not really important.

    I really really hope that problems on 21st OCT are minimal and that this is the first step to exploring the convenience of digital downloading for me, I have no anti-Steam axe to grind. I just pray that faulty software upgrades and suchlike are a thing of the past now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    Although you may think your post still is opposed to my position I have to generally agree with all you say therein. I do however believe the decision was Sega's, not SI's but that is not really important.

    I really really hope that problems on 21st OCT are minimal and that this is the first step to exploring the convenience of digital downloading for me, I have no anti-Steam axe to grind. I just pray that faulty software upgrades and suchlike are a thing of the past now.
    I hope so too... 'cause if Steam crashes on 21st Oct, I'm gonna look like a right twit after all this

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    I agree piracy is a big issue though the loyal FM player who only really plays FM is not the sort of person to look for snide downloads
    See this is it - everyone thinks they are being punished and being forced to jump through hoops.

    For football manager they sold 5.95 million games in Europe, 5.77 million games in North America and 1.9 million in Japan.

    SI have said that if 1/4 of the people that pirate the game actually bought it it would DOUBLE the sales.

    Very loose stats here but a bit of thought imagination here goes a long way

    Based on sales and SI/SEGA statement
    5.95 million in Europe = 23.8 million people pirating it
    5.77 million in North America = 23.08 million pirating
    1.9 milloin in Japan = 7.6 million pirating
    =
    13 million vs 54 million pirating

    If 1/4 of each of those didn't pirate that would

    11 million in Europ
    10.5 million in NA
    3.8 million in Japan
    =
    25.3 million sales vs 27 million pirating


    Very loose figures. But you get the idea.

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    I can't believe that some people are suggesting that the gamming industry is on the verge of going broke, between the three entertainment industries (movies/tv, music and gamming) gamming just grew to the biggest of them. Has the movie industry gone bust, has the music industry? Come on, man...

    What about other industries like clothing, they are copying all over the place - have they gone bust? Prevention, has it really made a difference anywhere? Usually the more you prevent the bigger the piracy (hard to get ideology promotes it), so if the gamming industry thinks they can do it better than everyone else then who are they kidding? (except a few fellow gamers on this forum)...
    Last edited by Loversleaper; 28-09-2011 at 16:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Tiger - the issue is there's an abundant amount of posts saying "Steam sucks".

    And nobody saying what they think "sucks". It gets into a debate about civil liberties and being forced to install 3rd party software. None of which is anything new on computers. You buy a computer, your first 3rd Party software is the Operating System, Windows or Mac. You then have an internet client, a music client, a video client, etc. and now a game client.

    Yeh SI and Sega went with Steam. But in the first post they said it was their best option and forewent anything for FM10 or FM11 until an acceptable solution was presented to them. They've spent 2 or 3 years on this and figuring out the best option for them AND their customers. And they also said the decision was not made lightly. I take that there was absolute war and battles happened over this in the meetings.

    At the end of the day, it's what we all have to work with. We're all in the same boat. We all have to get it working.

    I'm advocating that any one with issues should really post about what their exact issue is, either here or on the Steam forums. If you don't want to use Steam - then fine. Announce your disposition with DRM and your unwillingness to buy the game. If you're refusing to buy the game because of Steam related issues, I can only urge people to post the exact issue, and contact the support teams already in place, or visit their forums.

    It's black and white for me. If you want to play FM12 you need Steam and Internet. If you don't want to install Steam you can't play FM12. And if you don't have the internet you'll have to figure out a way to get it to Authenticate the game, switch to offline mode and enjoy FM12, or else you won't be able to buy it. It's marked clearly on the box "internet connection necessary". Anyone that hasn't got Internet can't download it anyway. Anyone buying it in the shop will see the warning on the front of the box and can say "I don't have internet that game is not for me".


    Regards to all the people saying "Steam is great and I have no issues" that's simply because they see all the negativity portrayed by people that have a problem with Steam before they even download or try it out or have downloaded it and can't get it to work and refuse to try and fix it but rather complain instead.
    Ageed, "I hate Steam......waaahaaaaaaa boohoo" on its own does not help any cause. An interesting point, it was stated 30+ (OMG!) pages ago that some people are registering just to state they will not buy FM12, and that that proves their strength of feeling. To me posters of thousand of posts (regardless of the quality ;-) ) trouble me more when they want to walkaway from FM12.

    Anyway DRM looks like it is here to stay. One compromise would be for SI to plan a non DRM release of FM12 for October 2013 at a budget price of course. Cant see anyone getting excited about that prospect but any devoted anti-Steamer would have an acceptable route to FM12, allbeit a rather delayed one. As a "put up & shut up" measure that would be about as much as I would find acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post

    This "its done, deal with it" attitude is poor but in line with official SI policy it seems so I cannot blame you for that. I have stated a few times my own FM12 purchasing plans and hope to be presently surprised BUT if it all goes wrong for any technical reason SI can expect a huge backlash - the size and effect of which none of us can anticipate.
    I would imagine that even if steam is working 100% on release day the forums are still going to be mad, they are every release and patch day because of the number of problems that can go wrong when installing a new game, steam related or not. Rest assured SI and the mods are dreading release day because they know exactly what to expect on here, i dont think anything will take them by suprise.

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    OMG I had forgotten about patching issues, why did you have to mention that! :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    Ageed, "I hate Steam......waaahaaaaaaa boohoo" on its own does not help any cause. An interesting point, it was stated 30+ (OMG!) pages ago that some people are registering just to state they will not buy FM12, and that that proves their strength of feeling. To me posters of thousand of posts (regardless of the quality ;-) ) trouble me more when they want to walkaway from FM12.

    Anyway DRM looks like it is here to stay. One compromise would be for SI to plan a non DRM release of FM12 for October 2013 at a budget price of course. Cant see anyone getting excited about that prospect but any devoted anti-Steamer would have an acceptable route to FM12, allbeit a rather delayed one. As a "put up & shut up" measure that would be about as much as I would find acceptable.
    I like this idea. It's not actually new, but the last team I know that tried it had some issues getting their DRM working... But as has I said before... DRM is always a limited thing... you want to stop people pirating it week one (if possible) you don't expect it to still be working in a month... so why not release a DRM free version a month later or two months? (Admitedly when Steam is involved, I suspect that companies rely on Steam for other things that make it difficult to pull it out. For example, Steam's cloud saves that let you play from any computer and carry on your savegames or simply the patching process) but I am totally in favour of the idea! Like I said, I know a company that said "Our game will go DRM free after the first couple of days. We're only interested in stopping the piracy at the start so people don't have the option of "pirate now or wait a couple of days for it to be released properly" They sadly had issues and tears...

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    Its not so much the patching issues, but the demanding patches, and god forbid if anything goes wrong with any of the patches and peoples games auto update and not work, Polish issue im looking at you!!hahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    Still complaining are we? Can't get over the fact that Steam is a great platform and you should simply deal with it? If you don't like it, don't buy it.
    how great or not steam is is not the argument! its having the choice (or in this case not) to download 3rd party software.
    piracy my foot! ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY MONEY MONEY!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    See this is it - everyone thinks they are being punished and being forced to jump through hoops.

    For football manager they sold 5.95 million games in Europe, 5.77 million games in North America and 1.9 million in Japan.

    SI have said that if 1/4 of the people that pirate the game actually bought it it would DOUBLE the sales.

    Very loose stats here but a bit of thought imagination here goes a long way

    Based on sales and SI/SEGA statement
    5.95 million in Europe = 23.8 million people pirating it
    5.77 million in North America = 23.08 million pirating
    1.9 milloin in Japan = 7.6 million pirating
    =
    13 million vs 54 million pirating

    If 1/4 of each of those didn't pirate that would

    11 million in Europ
    10.5 million in NA
    3.8 million in Japan
    =
    25.3 million sales vs 27 million pirating


    Very loose figures. But you get the idea.
    You have no idea what you are talking about and these numbers you are pulling out is way off beat. SI/SEGA has spoke on a global perspective, so if you really go through the stats then you have the 3rd world countries (the one's who cannot afford it) that really pull those figures in a certain direction. Your post here is a real distortion of the truth, my friend, so before you start venturing down this path make sure you get your stats correct...
    Last edited by Loversleaper; 28-09-2011 at 17:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrottop View Post
    I like this idea. It's not actually new, but the last team I know that tried it had some issues getting their DRM working... But as has I said before... DRM is always a limited thing... you want to stop people pirating it week one (if possible) you don't expect it to still be working in a month... so why not release a DRM free version a month later or two months? (Admitedly when Steam is involved, I suspect that companies rely on Steam for other things that make it difficult to pull it out. For example, Steam's cloud saves that let you play from any computer and carry on your savegames or simply the patching process) but I am totally in favour of the idea! Like I said, I know a company that said "Our game will go DRM free after the first couple of days. We're only interested in stopping the piracy at the start so people don't have the option of "pirate now or wait a couple of days for it to be released properly" They sadly had issues and tears...
    I would go further - a boxed DRM free release fully patched out of the box with bonus skins to be released early Summer the following year with an added promotion & relegation update for the seasons end. Who knows, could be a whole new market. Probably not commercially viable though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Tiger - the issue is there's an abundant amount of posts saying "Steam sucks".

    And nobody saying what they think "sucks". It gets into a debate about civil liberties and being forced to install 3rd party software.
    You have this backwards, and it's what you are about that leads you to see it this way. You posted earlier "that said, I refused to buy Ubisoft games or Diablo 3 (when it comes out) because I think those games have crossed the barrier to causing the consumer experience serious harm with their anti-piracy measures" this is just what many people in this thread have done, except you chose to draw your line on a different part of the beach.
    Do you see it yet?

    The difference is, there won't be the same handful of pro-Ubisoft people repeating the same things over and over because you dared to express an opinion not wholly to their liking, clouding the real issue in the process.

    EDIT: Please see post #4010
    Last edited by pigfacemonkeyman; 28-09-2011 at 20:08.

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    Not that it matters, but I think all this angst about this move is ridiculous.

    I love Steam and have used it for years, and buy %90 of my PC games through it. I have bought the last several versions of FM on it without issue.

    A one time online activation is hardly an egregious breach of anything. It's so not like Diablo with it's 'always online' requirement (sorry no playing Diablo III on your 22 hour flight to Hong Kong, loser!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    You have this backwards, and it's what you are about that leads you to see it this way. You posted earlier "that said, I refused to buy Ubisoft games or Diablo 3 (when it comes out) because I think those games have crossed the barrier to causing the consumer experience serious harm with their anti-piracy measures" this is just what many people in this thread have done, except you chose to draw your line on a different part of the beach.
    Do you see it yet?

    The difference is, there won't be the same handful of pro-Ubisoft people repeating the same things over and over because you dared to express an opinion not wholly to their liking, clouding the real issue in the process.
    It was me who said that actually. And... Yeah, you make a good point. I think that drawing the line at "a single one time activation" or "installing a service that provides a lot of additional benefits (even if I don't care about them, they will be useful to a lot of people)" seems to be pushing it to extreme... especially seeing as these people were fine with the activation we had last year...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrottop View Post
    It was me who said that actually. And... Yeah, you make a good point. I think that drawing the line at "a single one time activation" or "installing a service that provides a lot of additional benefits (even if I don't care about them, they will be useful to a lot of people)" seems to be pushing it to extreme... especially seeing as these people were fine with the activation we had last year...
    So, what you are saying is that it is kind of like the Church - "Join us today, don't you see all the opportunities we are handing out? Save yourselves now!..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrottop View Post
    It was me who said that actually. And... Yeah, you make a good point. I think that drawing the line at "a single one time activation" or "installing a service that provides a lot of additional benefits (even if I don't care about them, they will be useful to a lot of people)" seems to be pushing it to extreme... especially seeing as these people were fine with the activation we had last year...
    Post #3991, Page 40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    Post #3991, Page 40.
    Tiger - the issue is there's an abundant amount of posts saying "Steam sucks".

    And nobody saying what they think "sucks". It gets into a debate about civil liberties and being forced to install 3rd party software. None of which is anything new on computers. You buy a computer, your first 3rd Party software is the Operating System, Windows or Mac. You then have an internet client, a music client, a video client, etc. and now a game client.

    Yeh SI and Sega went with Steam. But in the first post they said it was their best option and forewent anything for FM10 or FM11 until an acceptable solution was presented to them. They've spent 2 or 3 years on this and figuring out the best option for them AND their customers. And they also said the decision was not made lightly. I take that there was absolute war and battles happened over this in the meetings.

    At the end of the day, it's what we all have to work with. We're all in the same boat. We all have to get it working.

    I'm advocating that any one with issues should really post about what their exact issue is, either here or on the Steam forums. If you don't want to use Steam - then fine. Announce your disposition with DRM and your unwillingness to buy the game. If you're refusing to buy the game because of Steam related issues, I can only urge people to post the exact issue, and contact the support teams already in place, or visit their forums.

    It's black and white for me. If you want to play FM12 you need Steam and Internet. If you don't want to install Steam you can't play FM12. And if you don't have the internet you'll have to figure out a way to get it to Authenticate the game, switch to offline mode and enjoy FM12, or else you won't be able to buy it. It's marked clearly on the box "internet connection necessary". Anyone that hasn't got Internet can't download it anyway. Anyone buying it in the shop will see the warning on the front of the box and can say "I don't have internet that game is not for me".


    Regards to all the people saying "Steam is great and I have no issues" that's simply because they see all the negativity portrayed by people that have a problem with Steam before they even download or try it out or have downloaded it and can't get it to work and refuse to try and fix it but rather complain instead.
    i think your mistaken
    you were looking at post 3988

    I'm sorry, clearly I didn't phrase it the way I meant. I don't mean "It's better than it used to be" so much as I mean "It used to be bad. Now it is good."
    And I'm simply saying that people are acting like SI made some horrible decision without thought. I'm simply saying that they probably gave it a lot of thought and decided that of all of the alternatives, Steam was the one that provided the best pro:con ratio.

    I am not defending Steam blindly. I am defending Steam with, what I feel are reasonable arguments. I'm sorry that you disagree and think I'm being a blind fan, but the last issue that I've ever had with Steam was the fact that Bioshock didn't unlock (I'd preordered it) until almost the next day... something that turned out to have been 2K's decision. That was about four years ago now. The legitimate argument I -am- hearing from people is that people don't like digital DRM systems. I completely agree that they aren't fun, but I also think they are necessary and have proven time and time again to delay, or reduce piracy. A single online activation is not "treating everyone like a criminal". It's just a simple nod that they're asking for. I don't think it's that much to ask (that said, I refused to buy Ubisoft games or Diablo 3 (when it comes out) because I think those games have crossed the barrier to causing the consumer experience serious harm with their anti-piracy measures. I'm not pro-evil-DRM, but I think that a single online activation isn't asking much... and I'll repeat... a lot of people beg developers to add Steamworks to their games and games often find that the Steam version sells more because people enjoy the benefits... This is not a DRM system without it's benefits.)
    Steam is not perfect. It sucks to have to activate online at all, but it's a two second thing that you were -always- going to have to do with one system or another. I have experienced the classic "Game is not available" error on Steam and it sucks, but I have not had it in years now.

    I guess I'm just saying that people don't act like Steam is a big evil decision that SI made. It's a decision made with customers as their first priority. If not, there are far worse DRM systems they could've used that stop piracy a lot better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrottop View Post
    It was me who said that actually. And... Yeah, you make a good point. I think that drawing the line at "a single one time activation" or "installing a service that provides a lot of additional benefits (even if I don't care about them, they will be useful to a lot of people)" seems to be pushing it to extreme... especially seeing as these people were fine with the activation we had last year...
    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    i think your mistaken
    you were looking at post 3988
    You are both right and I apologise to Eugene Tyson. My original mistake was missing out a chunk of my post that referred to the second quote, and my second was not checking properly when the original was pointed out, and for this I would like to apologise to Carrottop.

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    Just pre-ordered on Steam. I had never used Steam before FM 09 and have bought about 15-20 games since on Steam constantly looking at their sales.

    I some people do have issues, but I for one have nothing but praise for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrottop View Post
    It was me who said that actually. And... Yeah, you make a good point. I think that drawing the line at "a single one time activation" or "installing a service that provides a lot of additional benefits (even if I don't care about them, they will be useful to a lot of people)" seems to be pushing it to extreme... especially seeing as these people were fine with the activation we had last year...
    Thing is, FM doesn't have to be exclusively availible on Steam to be availible through Steam. Those additional benefits that other people are going to be given are a totally irrelevant point, because people could chose to have them anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by viiralx View Post
    Steam Guard. nuff said.

    Unless they hack your email to nobody can get into your account.
    So, I take it that you don't have a g-mail account?

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    A point raised in podcast 3, journalists have a preview version of the game. Assuming (but I may be wrong) that this is pretty much the demo then surely they were issued on trust only, so in theory if a journo sold it to a pirate they could get a cracked version out very soon.If that is a realistic scenario and if that happens all this DRM extravaganza will have been in vain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by viiralx View Post
    Was that some kind of snide remark at google's secuirty. you guys are just silly.
    Hey, I was just trying to lighten the air - things have been getting so serious lately. Anyway the pro-side has really done enough to convince me to repent! Except my public announcement I am about to broadcast in the link below:

    I REPENT: http://youtu.be/6cjqkkxWG3o

    Please take note on the emailing part, because it comes from the bottom of my heart!

    P.S. (lighten up pal...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by viiralx View Post
    Steam Guard. nuff said.

    Unless they hack your email to nobody can get into your account.
    So Steam Guard is 100% infallible to Joe Bloggs who uses the same password for everything?

    No.

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    To be fair, the email associated with a particular Steam account is not displayed anywhere before you log in, so unless it's someone you know they wouldn't know which email to target.

    That being said, no system is infallible. Security-consciousness is, as always, advised.

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    for anyone worried, the only information that steam actually takes from your computer is info about steam(unlike EA's origin). You don't have to worry about them peeking at everything else on your computer. It only looks at your steam habits, and even then, I believe you can opt out of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    A point raised in podcast 3, journalists have a preview version of the game. Assuming (but I may be wrong) that this is pretty much the demo then surely they were issued on trust only, so in theory if a journo sold it to a pirate they could get a cracked version out very soon.If that is a realistic scenario and if that happens all this DRM extravaganza will have been in vain.
    Not unless they have to play their demo copy through steam
    The hack is not FM its self, its hacking the steam client to bypass the DRM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Not unless they have to play their demo copy through steam
    The hack is not FM its self, its hacking the steam client to bypass the DRM.
    Which, of course, is simply not possible. No games on Steam are hacked or pirated...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    A point raised in podcast 3, journalists have a preview version of the game. Assuming (but I may be wrong) that this is pretty much the demo then surely they were issued on trust only, so in theory if a journo sold it to a pirate they could get a cracked version out very soon.If that is a realistic scenario and if that happens all this DRM extravaganza will have been in vain.
    I would have thought that there would be a digital signature that SI/Sega can use to track who originally had the journalist preview and take the appropriate action. I doubt that most hackers could find and fix that; after all in previous pirated versions of FM there were deliberate errors that cropped up in them, like wrong clubs in the wrong continental competitions, that the hackers didn't find and fix.

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    I know alot of you guys are scared to death about this whole piracy issue, probably the sales pitch that Steam used on Miles. Pulling out figures on (general) global piracy probably freaked the crap out of him especially when Steam was ramming the ammount of money SI/SEGA was missing out on (based on statistics). They just seemed to forget to tell him that most pirating happens in places where the consumer simply can't afford it (even if you put a gun to their heads)...

    Miles: "You can stop the piracy and we can make extra buck?"

    Steam: "Yeah, of course we can.... well, almost at least... We can delay it for you, just check out this graph..." (also known as the 'peek-a-boo' trick)

    I used to sell silk boxer-shorts, and I could convince you that buying those shorts were just about the best thing that could happen to you...
    Last edited by Loversleaper; 28-09-2011 at 19:17.

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    True Loversleaper ...

    Another question also : How can Direct2drive, GamersGate, Metaboli, Nexway and Co can tolerate that ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynet View Post
    Loversleaper I admire your dedicating in exposing the faults in Steams process but it's wasted in this thread, people will decide on there own merit if this decision was a wise one on Sega's part, but they will lose people like me who has been a long term buyer since 1992.

    People who pirate games will still do so no matter what precautions these gaming companies take, all it has done is alienate those who have been loyal and have bought the game legit.
    I may suggest that next year they do not release an FM13 game at all, not because it is an unlucky number but because no game at all = (guarantees) zero pirated copies. The SI/Sega Strategy Reich can then slap each others backs until they are sore and have a party if they so wish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynet View Post
    Loversleaper I admire your dedicating in exposing the faults in Steams process but it's wasted in this thread, people will decide on there own merit if this decision was a wise one on Sega's part, but they will lose people like me who has been a long term buyer since 1992.

    People who pirate games will still do so no matter what precautions these gaming companies take, all it has done is alienate those who have been loyal and have bought the game legit.
    You are correct in all aspects of this post, I know it's all in vain and that is why my last 5-6 posts have changed a little in tone (having a little more fun with it). The gamming industry is still quite 'young' compared to many other business's so they naturally think a little differently - and they think the money/lawyers can change the world. Good business has elements that seem to evade the gamming industry, as I have said a few times: movies/tv, music and clothes are being copied an'masse. Take Armani for example or Luis V, they are being copied all the time - and with incredible ease no matter what precautions they take. Are they going out of business? Do they come out and express self pity? No, they rely on good marketing/distibution - these people are experts in making a brand and stay on top of the game - things that the gamming industry has seemed to have missed out on. Cracking down on the loyal customers seems to be their mantra, which in it's deepest form is a sign of 'not knowing any better'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynet View Post
    To be honest Sega have had a very bad year with regards to profits, they actually lost millions through bad games and poor marketing.

    SI should be concerned with Sega as a licence promoter because in truth they are a company in dire straits making dire decisions.
    SI should not worry about stability, the loyal fanbase will keep the FM series viable in business for a while yet. They may want to worry about bad decisions being forced or pressured upon them though. So Sega & SI is not the dream marriage it was originally painted to be - quelle suprise! At least the match engine footballers are not a load of Sonic the Hedgehog's -yet! Miles would do a videoblog on why that is a good move though, dont worry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynet View Post
    Someone at Sega thought Sonic the hedgehog was still fun to play, but sadly nobody told the guy that was 1991 and not 2011
    The same ones that thought the DRM chastity belt would become a much loved fashion accessory for the "wearers"

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    Could somebody come up with something original and on topic please, this thread has once again descended to a level which would get most threads closed and quite a few people infracted for trolling/spamming etc.

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    latest steam update, now has finally started working on my Mac Roll on FM12,

    any idea how to turn off the ad's it pops up?

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    Fairly sure its the tickbox under settings that says:

    Notify me with steam instant messages about additions or changes to my games, new releases and upcoming releases.

    Hope that helps.

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    Not original but important I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    A Steam FAQ is being prepared (nearly complete I understand) it may be they wanted to see what came from this thread so they could make it as complete as possible in relation to FM12,
    So, 6 days later, any news on this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    Not original but important I think.

    So, 6 days later, any news on this?
    Been here for a few days.

    http://community.sigames.com/showthr...roubleshooting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    Yes, that is there, and the OP of that year old thread posted of it's existance 2 days ago. That has nothing to do with an official SI Steam FAQ. So, Kriss, any news on this?

    Cheers
    xxx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    And just when you didn't think the entertainment could get any better...

    But on a serious note, I wish that I had stumbled on this thread earlier. I honestly didn't know that it existed because something like this is really needed, if I didn't see the link it would have gone un-noticed, for me at least. Well worth a sticky somewhere more visible, maybe even make a pamphlet that could go with the game.

    Good stuff, Aim_less!
    Last edited by Loversleaper; 28-09-2011 at 23:30.

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    I hardly ever post, but this is a prime example of the failed logic behind the piracy numbers.
    Using made-up numbers, SI is assuming that they'll sell a million copies through normal channels, and a million copies will be pirated. Their OP point is that if they can convert 25% of those million pirated copies to sales *because of DRM*,
    they'll have another 250,000 units sold.

    This is the standard line given by anti-piracy groups, and it is just plain wrong. First, it assumes that there won't be any hacked copy available. Second, the numbers of people it presumes will buy are hyperinflated.

    People who pirate games fall into three groups:
    Those who will *never* pay for the game (vast majority)
    Those who will try the game, and pay for it if they like it (the minority)
    Those who *want* the game, but will try to get it hacked, and only buy it if they can't get a hacked version.

    Does SI really think that the last category really represents 1/4 of all the bittorrent folks out there? If they exist at all, they're a tiny, tiny majority. the "i use bittorrent, but I can't find a hacked version, AND I'm willing to pay for it".

    Sorry, but the numbers are wrong.

  92. #3992
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    forcing Steam to try stop piracy? FAIL.

  93. #3993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    If you want to play FM12, you have to have STeam and an Internet Connection. It's up to you to get it working. If you don't want to do that then don't buy FM12. It couldn't be any simpler.

    Decision has been made, you need Steam to play FM12. Either get it working or don't.
    I agree. I don't want to authenticate using Steam, so I won't buy the game. I know though I will be in the huge minority, and the number of people that don't buy it will be hugely,massively outnumbered by the number of people that grumble, but buy it anyway.

    I know I'm an exception. I've harboured a long (partly irrational) grudge against SI since CM4 due to the way that was handled. I've only bought 2 versions of the game since (despite swearing I wouldn't buy any ever again....).

    With a game as popular as this, SI will do as they please, and people will still buy it. It's like any business or industry. Why would SI change if people are still buying in large numbers? I guess they've done the maths and worked out the number of people that will stick to their guns (like me) will be outnumbered by the increase of sales due to increased piracy protection. They might be right, they might be wrong. But it is their decision to make.

    I don't have faith in SI to get it right (or is it SEGA, I'm not sure where the line is drawn these days). I lost faith in them over CM4, and I can remember the last time they tried to enforce something through Steam was a total and utter b@lls up.

  94. #3994
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    Quote Originally Posted by valvesucks View Post
    forcing Steam to try stop piracy? FAIL.
    Nice nickname .

  95. #3995
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    Well guys, I have all FM boxed versions since 2006, and I'm going to explain why I'm not going to buy FM 12 if it uses Steam.
    Steam takes about 20 seconds (sometimes more) to launch in my computer. If I play FM let's say 1000x a year, I would have lost in this year, 333 minutes or 5,5 hours just waiting for Steam to launch, while the guy who pirated the game (with a Nonsteam version), won't have lost this time.
    In my opinion, you have to think it over, or else, you're losing another loyal customer.

    Sorry for my bad english.
    Regards!
    Jeff

  96. #3996
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    Waiting 20 seconds is not a big deal. It's like saying you're not buying a computer because it takes 5 minutes to boot up. Buy a better computer.

    If it is the case that it takes 20 seconds to launch, I suggest you never turn your computer off or reboot it ever again and you'll save yourself 300 hours of your life over the year.


    @thesandman - have you tried steam lately? It probably works a lot better than you remember in CM4...

    @Scaryberry - did you know that in some countries it was never available through Steam at all - and it is this year? That's right. Some countries where it took WEEKS to have the game delivered in the box. These can now buy and download from Steam. I can imagine a lot of those would be happy to buy the game instead of perhaps in some cases where they were pirating it like they did before.

  97. #3997
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    Can you delete Steam after authenticating your copy of the game or is it forced upon me to use Steam for years to come?

    I'm not too keen to have a ***** third party software installed in the first place but there's simply no way I'm getting Steam just so I can play FM. I can only hope the sales plummet and SI admit their mistake.

  98. #3998
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    Steam needs to be running alongside the game, so no, you cannot uninstall it and still play FM12.

  99. #3999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Waiting 20 seconds is not a big deal. It's like saying you're not buying a computer because it takes 5 minutes to boot up. Buy a better computer.

    If it is the case that it takes 20 seconds to launch, I suggest you never turn your computer off or reboot it ever again and you'll save yourself 300 hours of your life over the year.


    @thesandman - have you tried steam lately? It probably works a lot better than you remember in CM4...

    @Scaryberry - did you know that in some countries it was never available through Steam at all - and it is this year? That's right. Some countries where it took WEEKS to have the game delivered in the box. These can now buy and download from Steam. I can imagine a lot of those would be happy to buy the game instead of perhaps in some cases where they were pirating it like they did before.
    Your first statement is typical of the nonsense being ejaculated about to support Steam activation. Owning a PC to play a PC game is a physical requirement. Using DRM is a choice removed from me on the whim of a manufacturer - absolutely no comparison at all. I do accept they have the right to protect their product as they please and am trying to see a complicated list of Steam troubleshooting suggestions as a cure to any possible problem, rather than a suggestion that there is an awful lot that could go wrong, but its not easy right now! Like the idea of never turning off though ;-)

    Have to say, Scarryberry has hit the nail on the head, I believe. I have no stats to prove it though. SI's stats are debateable, but they used them in their own favour, of course.

    Am getting frustarted that DRM is linked in the main to the behaviour of our foreign "friends". I dont want to sound zenaphobic but a game made in England aimed primarily (if not soley) at fans of English football (yes I know it has a worldwide following) is made more awkward to access due to (mostly) foreign criminals.

  100. #4000
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    This thread is hilarious.

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