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Thread: A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

  1. #4001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    If you want to play FM12, you have to have STeam and an Internet Connection. It's up to you to get it working. If you don't want to do that then don't buy FM12. It couldn't be any simpler.

    Decision has been made, you need Steam to play FM12. Either get it working or don't.
    I agree. I don't want to authenticate using Steam, so I won't buy the game. I know though I will be in the huge minority, and the number of people that don't buy it will be hugely,massively outnumbered by the number of people that grumble, but buy it anyway.

    I know I'm an exception. I've harboured a long (partly irrational) grudge against SI since CM4 due to the way that was handled. I've only bought 2 versions of the game since (despite swearing I wouldn't buy any ever again....).

    With a game as popular as this, SI will do as they please, and people will still buy it. It's like any business or industry. Why would SI change if people are still buying in large numbers? I guess they've done the maths and worked out the number of people that will stick to their guns (like me) will be outnumbered by the increase of sales due to increased piracy protection. They might be right, they might be wrong. But it is their decision to make.

    I don't have faith in SI to get it right (or is it SEGA, I'm not sure where the line is drawn these days). I lost faith in them over CM4, and I can remember the last time they tried to enforce something through Steam was a total and utter b@lls up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by valvesucks View Post
    forcing Steam to try stop piracy? FAIL.
    Nice nickname .

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    Well guys, I have all FM boxed versions since 2006, and I'm going to explain why I'm not going to buy FM 12 if it uses Steam.
    Steam takes about 20 seconds (sometimes more) to launch in my computer. If I play FM let's say 1000x a year, I would have lost in this year, 333 minutes or 5,5 hours just waiting for Steam to launch, while the guy who pirated the game (with a Nonsteam version), won't have lost this time.
    In my opinion, you have to think it over, or else, you're losing another loyal customer.

    Sorry for my bad english.
    Regards!
    Jeff

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    Waiting 20 seconds is not a big deal. It's like saying you're not buying a computer because it takes 5 minutes to boot up. Buy a better computer.

    If it is the case that it takes 20 seconds to launch, I suggest you never turn your computer off or reboot it ever again and you'll save yourself 300 hours of your life over the year.


    @thesandman - have you tried steam lately? It probably works a lot better than you remember in CM4...

    @Scaryberry - did you know that in some countries it was never available through Steam at all - and it is this year? That's right. Some countries where it took WEEKS to have the game delivered in the box. These can now buy and download from Steam. I can imagine a lot of those would be happy to buy the game instead of perhaps in some cases where they were pirating it like they did before.

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    Can you delete Steam after authenticating your copy of the game or is it forced upon me to use Steam for years to come?

    I'm not too keen to have a ***** third party software installed in the first place but there's simply no way I'm getting Steam just so I can play FM. I can only hope the sales plummet and SI admit their mistake.

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    Steam needs to be running alongside the game, so no, you cannot uninstall it and still play FM12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Waiting 20 seconds is not a big deal. It's like saying you're not buying a computer because it takes 5 minutes to boot up. Buy a better computer.

    If it is the case that it takes 20 seconds to launch, I suggest you never turn your computer off or reboot it ever again and you'll save yourself 300 hours of your life over the year.


    @thesandman - have you tried steam lately? It probably works a lot better than you remember in CM4...

    @Scaryberry - did you know that in some countries it was never available through Steam at all - and it is this year? That's right. Some countries where it took WEEKS to have the game delivered in the box. These can now buy and download from Steam. I can imagine a lot of those would be happy to buy the game instead of perhaps in some cases where they were pirating it like they did before.
    Your first statement is typical of the nonsense being ejaculated about to support Steam activation. Owning a PC to play a PC game is a physical requirement. Using DRM is a choice removed from me on the whim of a manufacturer - absolutely no comparison at all. I do accept they have the right to protect their product as they please and am trying to see a complicated list of Steam troubleshooting suggestions as a cure to any possible problem, rather than a suggestion that there is an awful lot that could go wrong, but its not easy right now! Like the idea of never turning off though ;-)

    Have to say, Scarryberry has hit the nail on the head, I believe. I have no stats to prove it though. SI's stats are debateable, but they used them in their own favour, of course.

    Am getting frustarted that DRM is linked in the main to the behaviour of our foreign "friends". I dont want to sound zenaphobic but a game made in England aimed primarily (if not soley) at fans of English football (yes I know it has a worldwide following) is made more awkward to access due to (mostly) foreign criminals.

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    This thread is hilarious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scaryberry View Post
    I hardly ever post, but this is a prime example of the failed logic behind the piracy numbers.
    Using made-up numbers, SI is assuming that they'll sell a million copies through normal channels, and a million copies will be pirated. Their OP point is that if they can convert 25% of those million pirated copies to sales *because of DRM*,
    they'll have another 250,000 units sold.

    This is the standard line given by anti-piracy groups, and it is just plain wrong. First, it assumes that there won't be any hacked copy available. Second, the numbers of people it presumes will buy are hyperinflated.

    People who pirate games fall into three groups:
    Those who will *never* pay for the game (vast majority)
    Those who will try the game, and pay for it if they like it (the minority)
    Those who *want* the game, but will try to get it hacked, and only buy it if they can't get a hacked version.

    Does SI really think that the last category really represents 1/4 of all the bittorrent folks out there? If they exist at all, they're a tiny, tiny majority. the "i use bittorrent, but I can't find a hacked version, AND I'm willing to pay for it".

    Sorry, but the numbers are wrong.
    You, like more people, seem to be missing one set of people who pirate the game.
    Those people who buy a copy of the game with someone else (friend or family member) and both play it at the same time. That doesn't seem like piracy to most people but it is and it's that form of piracy that will be most affected by this change. The license for the game only allows one user to run one instance of the game at a time.

    I suspect that at least some of the naysayers for Steam fall into that category.

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    The "if you don't like Steam, then don't buy FM - plain and simple" is the sales pitch these days. I am sure this is going to do wonders for SI/SEGA, especially for thier rsum...

    I don't think that the minority is a small as suggested, it could turn out that the procentage of people who won't buy the game due to this Steam issue might just out-weigh the one's who SI/SEGA think will purchase a genuine copy instead of a pirated one (it won't make that much a difference at best). FM has already been part of Steam for a couple of years at least, they must know (or have an idea) how many procentage of sales actually go through Steam (the ones who buy through other sources usually have their reasons) - take away the ones who don't have internet or the ones who have poor internet connections and I think you are going to see a whole other aspect. Many of the people who popped into stores to buy FM are football fans, you know, the ones who don't usually sit around and game all day, Steam and all it's advantages doesn't really mean anything to them...
    Last edited by Loversleaper; 29-09-2011 at 07:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AL-K-PWN View Post
    This thread is hilarious.
    What an amazing first Post, you should get an award! May I suggest there is a little room for improvement though going forward. Anyway, Welcome to the Forums, look forward to your sides being well and truly split.

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    Sorry, after reading over 3500 posts in this thread that were made with no logical thought process, I've facepalmed so many times I must have given myself brain damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    Not original but important I think.

    So, 6 days later, any news on this?
    I've heard nothing so I've prodded where I'm able to prod, we're approaching the time when the forums are reorganised for FM12 so it could be they're waiting for that, hope to hear something definitive soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spankie View Post
    You, like more people, seem to be missing one set of people who pirate the game.
    Those people who buy a copy of the game with someone else (friend or family member) and both play it at the same time. That doesn't seem like piracy to most people but it is and it's that form of piracy that will be most affected by this change. The license for the game only allows one user to run one instance of the game at a time.

    I suspect that at least some of the naysayers for Steam fall into that category.
    Your last statement may or may not be true, it is a dangerous assumption - glad you slipped the word "suspect" in there!. However the main point you raise is an excellent one. SI would not want to come down hard, or appear to, on (for example) 2 brothers who share a copy so this is in effect a gentle nudge for them to own a copy each - fair enough. But on the other hand surely unless they turned into Pirates overnight they would both need a copy if playing separately at the same time?, so in that example SI only lose out (in theory) when the 2 brothers play separately at different times and share the disk. Yes this breaks the licensing agreement but come on, is that really worth all the anti piracy efforts - surely not in this case.

    In my experience when 2 FM'ers in the same household both want to play FM they play a 2 player game on a single game copy anyway, perhaps SI are working on a way of making that a criminal offence too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    I know alot of you guys are scared to death about this whole piracy issue, probably the sales pitch that Steam used on Miles. Pulling out figures on (general) global piracy probably freaked the crap out of him especially when Steam was ramming the ammount of money SI/SEGA was missing out on (based on statistics). They just seemed to forget to tell him that most pirating happens in places where the consumer simply can't afford it (even if you put a gun to their heads)...

    Miles: "You can stop the piracy and we can make extra buck?"

    Steam: "Yeah, of course we can.... well, almost at least... We can delay it for you, just check out this graph..." (also known as the 'peek-a-boo' trick)

    I used to sell silk boxer-shorts, and I could convince you that buying those shorts were just about the best thing that could happen to you...
    megaLOL

    definitely post of the day

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    Quote Originally Posted by AL-K-PWN View Post
    Sorry, after reading over 3500 posts in this thread that were made with no logical thought process, I've facepalmed so many times I must have given myself brain damage.
    That is extremely unfair, I admire you read them all - I have but only as I followed the thread from the start, I would not have the patience to read back though I confess. Whilst a lot of posts may be mindless there are a lot (the majority) which are well intentioned and well thought out - and I include many I strongly disagree with, although some (included some of my own) would have been well served by stepping back and thinking for a bit before posting. To be fair we have all faceplamed to the point of brain damage by now. I llok forward to a surprising smooth activation and never ever feeling I need to visit this thread again. Im sure Kriss seconds that emotion! ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post

    In my experience when 2 FM'ers in the same household both want to play FM they play a 2 player game on a single game copy anyway, perhaps SI are working on a way of making that a criminal offence too.
    Perhaps when you make some software and 40 million people steal it, you might be a bit more sympathetic to SI's plight.

  18. #4018
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    That is extremely unfair, I admire you read them all - I have but only as I followed the thread from the start, I would not have the patience to read back though I confess. Whilst a lot of posts may be mindless there are a lot (the majority) which are well intentioned and well thought out - and I include many I strongly disagree with, although some (included some of my own) would have been well served by stepping back and thinking for a bit before posting. To be fair we have all faceplamed to the point of brain damage by now. I llok forward to a surprising smooth activation and never ever feeling I need to visit this thread again. Im sure Kriss seconds that emotion! ;-)
    It's been an interesting thread, my only problem with it is that people aren't content to state their position/argument once or at least in context to other posts and then move on. i.e. it could have been 35 pages shorter and still achieved the same

    Both sides have grasped at illogic too often to prove the unprovable, the actual proof lies in the future.

    I resent some of the motives ascribed to Sega/SI, profit has to be in the equation of course (nothing wrong with that) but the abiding aim at SI Towers is , and always has been to assure the long term future of the game.
    They will have taken this decision with that uppermost in their minds.

    I find some of the logic used to object to Steam prehistoric and I say that in the confident knowledge that I'm the oldest person to post in this thread so far

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Perhaps when you make some software and 40 million people steal it, you might be a bit more sympathetic to SI's plight.
    And when you have 2 children, give them 1 copy of the latest "toy" to share, and then have to deal with the tantrums and fall out as they both want to play at the same time, you will realise the nonsense of the "Piracy" arguement as presented. Now days 30-40 is a very small outlay for something that gives so many hours enjoyment (less than a seat to a Premiership match?), pirated copies are in the vast majority held by those who would not pay the price for the game regardless (for various reasons it would be unfair for me to judge). I do not present this as a "fact" but it would seem a logical conclusion from a common sense consideration of common knowledge about piracy habits of gamers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Perhaps when you make some software and 40 million people steal it, you might be a bit more sympathetic to SI's plight.
    On the spot Eugene!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    It's been an interesting thread, my only problem with it is that people aren't content to state their position/argument once or at least in context to other posts and then move on. i.e. it could have been 35 pages shorter and still achieved the same

    Both sides have grasped at illogic too often to prove the unprovable, the actual proof lies in the future.

    I resent some of the motives ascribed to Sega/SI, profit has to be in the equation of course (nothing wrong with that) but the abiding aim at SI Towers is , and always has been to assure the long term future of the game.
    They will have taken this decision with that uppermost in their minds.

    I find some of the logic used to object to Steam prehistoric and I say that in the confident knowledge that I'm the oldest person to post in this thread so far
    Seriously?, have you noted how old i am? ;-)

    I keep visiting to see what Steam issues others are having (as I had several only at the weekend). I dont do this so I can troll, I do it so I can be prepared for Oct 21. I assure the forum, no one is hoping for a troublefree activation on 21st Oct more than me, though I accept tens of thousands will want the same ojective as much as I do. However every time someone with no Steam issues posts without consideration to others that Steam is great (hardly ever "my Steam experience has been great, I cannnot speak for others") I have to respond with balance. Just I guess as pro-Steamers do to the "Steam is the antichrist - im out of here!" posts.

    Off topic but relevant, I have a passing interest in model railways, just recapturing my youth, and somethimes buy magazines for that "hobby". Every now and again a furious poster will reply in the letters columns that some tiny detail on a new model is slightly incorrect.They will be quite vitriolic sometimes. This reminds me of the responses to many issues raised in the FM Forums. Passion is not very helpful when misdirected, but I am always touched by how passionate the FM Community are about all manner of FM issues. The day a potentially conroversial thread passes by with little notice is the day SI and us the players need really worry about, and I cannot see that day coming soon.

    God bless the double edged sword!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    And when you have 2 children, give them 1 copy of the latest "toy" to share, and then have to deal with the tantrums and fall out as they both want to play at the same time, you will realise the nonsense of the "Piracy" arguement as presented. Now days 30-40 is a very small outlay for something that gives so many hours enjoyment (less than a seat to a Premiership match?), pirated copies are in the vast majority held by those who would not pay the price for the game regardless (for various reasons it would be unfair for me to judge). I do not present this as a "fact" but it would seem a logical conclusion from a common sense consideration of common knowledge about piracy habits of gamers.
    I'd be sympathetic to a family who had to steal food to feed them. Not steal a computer game to keep them "entertained".

    You were never supposed to install the game on two computers and have two people play it at the same time. Sure you can have 1 steam account for both. And they can both have their own saves and play at different times. There is the option to password protect the games.

    That's the way you were supposed to do it. The game was sold to you with good faith that you'd abide by the EULA, and people blatantly flaunted it.

    Now it's harder for some people, impossible for others, to blatantly abuse the system that was sold to you in good faith.


    If you don't understand that then there's nothing else I can say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    Off topic but relevant, I have a passing interest in model railways, just recapturing my youth, and somethimes buy magazines for that "hobby". Every now and again a furious poster will reply in the letters columns that some tiny detail on a new model is slightly incorrect.They will be quite vitriolic sometimes. This reminds me of the responses to many issues raised in the FM Forums. Passion is not very helpful when misdirected, but I am always touched by how passionate the FM Community are about all manner of FM issues. The day a potentially conroversial thread passes by with little notice is the day SI and us the players need really worry about, and I cannot see that day coming soon.

    God bless the double edged sword!
    As a Beta tester on Railroad Tycoons 2 & 3 I empathise with that here's a link you might enjoyhttp://hawkdawg.com/forums/

    Railroad Tycoon 1 is a freebie on Steam and 2,3 & Sid Meiers Railroads are available in a package (10 the lot I think)

    Welcome to my other world

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    I've heard nothing so I've prodded where I'm able to prod, we're approaching the time when the forums are reorganised for FM12 so it could be they're waiting for that, hope to hear something definitive soon.
    Thanks inspector prod.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    It's been an interesting thread, my only problem with it is that people aren't content to state their position/argument once or at least in context to other posts and then move on. i.e. it could have been 35 pages shorter and still achieved the same

    Both sides have grasped at illogic too often to prove the unprovable, the actual proof lies in the future.

    I resent some of the motives ascribed to Sega/SI, profit has to be in the equation of course (nothing wrong with that) but the abiding aim at SI Towers is , and always has been to assure the long term future of the game.
    They will have taken this decision with that uppermost in their minds.

    I find some of the logic used to object to Steam prehistoric and I say that in the confident knowledge that I'm the oldest person to post in this thread so far
    'Age does not a wise man make, young Kriss Skywalker!'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    I'd be sympathetic to a family who had to steal food to feed them. Not steal a computer game to keep them "entertained".

    You were never supposed to install the game on two computers and have two people play it at the same time. Sure you can have 1 steam account for both. And they can both have their own saves and play at different times. There is the option to password protect the games.

    That's the way you were supposed to do it. The game was sold to you with good faith that you'd abide by the EULA, and people blatantly flaunted it.

    Now it's harder for some people, impossible for others, to blatantly abuse the system that was sold to you in good faith.


    If you don't understand that then there's nothing else I can say.
    Actually you misunderstood. My point was that it is easier for parents to spend the extra for an additional game copy than the alternatives (presuming most parents do discourage thieving) unless they cannot afford it at all in which case any amount of DRM is not going to put the price of the extra game into their familly budget anyway.

    I dont understand why you couldnt grasp that though?

    PS Pease try to remember, you are anti piracy, I am also anti piracy - no caveats.

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    What you're saying doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, that's why I'm "not grasping it".

    On the flipside, I don't know why you don't grasp what I'm saying.

    We seem to be on the same side, as you say you're anti-piracy too.

    All I know is that you need Steam to play FM12. I want to play FM12. So I'll use the Steam that's been forced on us (I've had Steam for years anyway, so not really forced on me at all, I use it anyway). I can't say I've had any issues with Steam. I'm sympathetic towards that do. But I still insist there's plenty of time to get Steam working and get their noggins around how Steam works and how to get it to work on their system.

    Steam will either be a raging success or a raging failure. I hope it's the former.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    As a Beta tester on Railroad Tycoons 2 & 3 I empathise with that here's a link you might enjoyhttp://hawkdawg.com/forums/

    Railroad Tycoon 1 is a freebie on Steam and 2,3 & Sid Meiers Railroads are available in a package (10 the lot I think)

    Welcome to my other world
    Already have them, plus Sim City, Sim City 2 etc etc (even have Amiga copies in the garage - I will buy duplicate copies for alternatives platforms - jack Sparrow I am not). Add to that every FM & SI Cm (except "Italia") and Sim Tower. Anyone remember Treble Champions on the Amiga? (& Spectrum).

    Serously for uber geeks like me the benefits of Steam are not non existant, they just completely missed the boat by several years :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    What you're saying doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, that's why I'm "not grasping it".

    On the flipside, I don't know why you don't grasp what I'm saying.

    We seem to be on the same side, as you say you're anti-piracy too.

    All I know is that you need Steam to play FM12. I want to play FM12. So I'll use the Steam that's been forced on us (I've had Steam for years anyway, so not really forced on me at all, I use it anyway). I can't say I've had any issues with Steam. I'm sympathetic towards that do. But I still insist there's plenty of time to get Steam working and get their noggins around how Steam works and how to get it to work on their system.

    Steam will either be a raging success or a raging failure. I hope it's the former.


    Agree totally (with some concerns as previously detailed).

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    Steam will not prevent piracy - I guess that has been mentioned about a million times in this thread already.. Steam has been cracked a long time ago, and SEGA knows that.

    There is only one reason for using Steam, which is to prevent the resale of used copies.

    I know some software companies think this is theft as they're not making money from resales, but I still see it as my right to sell stuff I no longer want to use.

    I've never sold a PC game since I play them for too long to ever get enough back to make it worth the hassle. Still, I'd much rather have companies admit what the real reason behind the STEAM decision is rather than referring to piracy. Face it, there is no way to stop piracy, since it has always been easier to crack copy protection than it is to develop it.

    the steam decision won't affect me personally, as I don'T sell games and use STEAM for years now. I can understand why other people think about pirating a game they can't resell since many people can only afford to buy new games when they either buy used copies (which is perfectly legal!) or are able to sell their copies once they no longer want them (perfectly legal as well)...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    Already have them, plus Sim City, Sim City 2 etc etc (even have Amiga copies in the garage - I will buy duplicate copies for alternatives platforms - jack Sparrow I am not). Add to that every FM & SI Cm (except "Italia") and Sim Tower. Anyone remember Treble Champions on the Amiga? (& Spectrum).

    Serously for uber geeks like me the benefits of Steam are not non existant, they just completely missed the boat by several years :-)
    I will just add if Steam can offer me a version of Battle isle 1914-1918 that actually works on Windows I will be on the road to becoming a Steam fanboi !

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    you boys should just have your own thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by bieritarier View Post

    I know some software companies think this is theft as they're not making money from resales, but I still see it as my right to sell stuff I no longer want to use.
    I think you can still resell the boxed version - as long as you deactivate your copy on Steam. And that you return all the software, discs and manuals, plus box to the store. And remove any information or software installed by the game via installation.

    This is pretty standard for most EULA.

    If you buy on Steam - I'm not sure what the options are for reselling? I don't buy games through Steam so I don't know how that works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    you boys should just have your own thread
    At least they're not on about cars, upgraded to trains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bieritarier View Post
    Steam will not prevent piracy - I guess that has been mentioned about a million times in this thread already.. Steam has been cracked a long time ago, and SEGA knows that.

    There is only one reason for using Steam, which is to prevent the resale of used copies.

    I know some software companies think this is theft as they're not making money from resales, but I still see it as my right to sell stuff I no longer want to use.

    I've never sold a PC game since I play them for too long to ever get enough back to make it worth the hassle. Still, I'd much rather have companies admit what the real reason behind the STEAM decision is rather than referring to piracy. Face it, there is no way to stop piracy, since it has always been easier to crack copy protection than it is to develop it.

    the steam decision won't affect me personally, as I don'T sell games and use STEAM for years now. I can understand why other people think about pirating a game they can't resell since many people can only afford to buy new games when they either buy used copies (which is perfectly legal!) or are able to sell their copies once they no longer want them (perfectly legal as well)...
    I will not comment on this opinion but the FM'ers I know do not sell the old games, they do keep the boxes lined up on a shelf. So am not sure the 2nd hand market would be considered a big deal for FM though SEga may see it as essential for their whole product range as a standard measure. In really imporatant ways FM is not like most other games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    I will just add if Steam can offer me a version of Battle isle 1914-1918 that actually works on Windows I will be on the road to becoming a Steam fanboi !
    This is the best I can come up with and it doesn't require you to abandon Steam phobia http://ip-70-38-122-100.static.priva..._isle_platinum

  37. #4037
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    'Piracy' <> Playing FM/Visiting FM Forums on Company time, comparable? Discuss.

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    And the real reason for Steam, since you asked, is to delay piracy - not prevent it.

    I've covered this so many times in this thread.

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    Thanks, that link may well come in useful someday soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    'Piracy' <> Playing FM/Visiting FM Forums on Company time, comparable? Discuss.
    yeah its clearly identical, next?

  41. #4041
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    This is the best I can come up with and it doesn't require you to abandon Steam phobia http://ip-70-38-122-100.static.priva..._isle_platinum
    Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssss sssss! You da man! LOL

    I knew all those wasted hours in this thread were for a reason. If FM12 activtion goes wrong guess what I'ii be doing on 21st Oct.

    Seriously, thanks. been searching for that for about 10 years, even downloaded an emulator version which fell over constantaly so fingers crossed for this little fella.

    PS I infract you for going off topic repeatedly ;-)

  42. #4042
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    'Piracy' <> Playing FM/Visiting FM Forums on Company time, comparable? Discuss.
    LOL. Im never playing Trumps with you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    At least they're not on about cars, upgraded to trains.
    maybe they should stay on track with the thread........


    ill get my coat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    I think you can still resell the boxed version - as long as you deactivate your copy on Steam. And that you return all the software, discs and manuals, plus box to the store. And remove any information or software installed by the game via installation.

    This is pretty standard for most EULA.

    If you buy on Steam - I'm not sure what the options are for reselling? I don't buy games through Steam so I don't know how that works.
    Please show me how to do it. I possess many games I activated on Steam, quite a few are actually boxed copies. Once the game is mapped to an account you can't change that - if you show me how I stand corrected.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    I will not comment on this opinion but the FM'ers I know do not sell the old games, they do keep the boxes lined up on a shelf. So am not sure the 2nd hand market would be considered a big deal for FM though SEga may see it as essential for their whole product range as a standard measure. In really imporatant ways FM is not like most other games.
    well, I have seen quite a lot of copies on ebay in recent years, must be me though. You are active on the forums, you are "hardcore FMer", but face it, the majority is not. They play the game for a month, then lose interest, and a fair share will then sell it. I would agree the percentage is probably lower than it is for shooters, but donT you think SEGA doesn't see it as a problem.

    And someone made the comment about delaying piracy - I'm not following the scene but last time I checked STEAM protected games were also cracked and available pre-release (ok, maybe not a week but just 6 days, I give you that...).
    Last edited by bieritarier; 29-09-2011 at 10:18.

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    I'm not entirely sure on the details. As I said, it's the way it is for other software I use, and I suspected it was the the same for buying the disc version of FM. But I've never done this myself for FM.

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    Ok,I havw read all the pages on this subject,So NEIL BROCK after i give my reaction will you please answer my one question at the end?
    I don't like steam but I do use it but only to activate games and if this stops piracy then good,only time will tell.
    Now the question,can you at SI make it possible in FM12 and also maybe FM11 to give an option where players can be blocked from being selected for international duties?This would allow young teams to be protected from tiredness ect.thanks.

  47. #4047
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    Steamworks games cannot be resold. The key code is permanently attached to whichever Steam account it gets registered to.

  48. #4048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    I think you can still resell the boxed version - as long as you deactivate your copy on Steam. And that you return all the software, discs and manuals, plus box to the store. And remove any information or software installed by the game via installation.

    This is pretty standard for most EULA.

    If you buy on Steam - I'm not sure what the options are for reselling? I don't buy games through Steam so I don't know how that works.
    If that is right it destroys one anti Steam arguement, which actually I aplaud.

  49. #4049
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    Again - I'm not 100% certain. I'm going off other software that I buy. And that's pretty much the EULA. I buy a lot of software for professional reasons, and I stick to the EULA.

    I'm not 100% sure. I can't find any info on this.

  50. #4050
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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    yeah its clearly identical, next?
    Interesting point of view, I take it you participate in neither then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    Interesting point of view, I take it you participate in neither then?
    of course not, im pretty much the reincarnation of Jesus, i am not allowed to break any commandments.

    "tho shall not steal"



    what does this have to do with steam?

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    of course not, im pretty much the reincarnation of Jesus, i am not allowed to break any commandments.

    "tho shall not steal"



    what does this have to do with steam?
    What does Steam have to do with SI/SEGA's activation decision?

  53. #4053
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    What does Steam have to do with SI/SEGA's activation decision?
    maybe the fact they chose steam as their activation method..........have you not been paying attention?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Again - I'm not 100% certain. I'm going off other software that I buy. And that's pretty much the EULA. I buy a lot of software for professional reasons, and I stick to the EULA.

    I'm not 100% sure. I can't find any info on this.
    Shouldnt be a major issue anyway. I buy a 25k car, I consider resale/devaluation. I buy a 35 PC game (which I know will be 10 retail within a year) - I dont consider "re-sale" too much.

  55. #4055
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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    of course not, im pretty much the reincarnation of Jesus, i am not allowed to break any commandments.

    "tho shall not steal"



    what does this have to do with steam?
    I believe fast reliable Broadband is rare in Nazereth and since Pontious Pilot's Gaming Stable went into Receivership, I suspect if the only way our Lord could lead Beitar Jerusalem to European glory was via a cracked copy of the game - I fear this may be his temptation too far... ;-)
    Last edited by tigerhgrrrrrr; 29-09-2011 at 11:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    I believe fast reliable Broadband is rare in Nazereth and since Pontious Pilot's Gaming Stable went into Receivership, I suspect if the only way our Lord could lead Beitar Jerusalem to European glory was via a cracked copy of the game - I fear this may be his temptation to far... ;-)
    pft its blasphemy to even suggest the holy one would be involved in pirating
    if his cracked copy had the magical win button then you might be right................

  57. #4057
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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    maybe the fact they chose steam as their activation method..........have you not been paying attention?
    Does your attention not span beyond one post? Let me refresh your memory;

    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    'Piracy' <> Playing FM/Visiting FM Forums on Company time, comparable? Discuss.
    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    yeah its clearly identical, next?
    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    Interesting point of view, I take it you participate in neither then?
    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    of course not, im pretty much the reincarnation of Jesus, i am not allowed to break any commandments.

    "tho shall not steal"



    what does this have to do with steam?
    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    What does Steam have to do with SI/SEGA's activation decision?
    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    maybe the fact they chose steam as their activation method..........have you not been paying attention?
    The only reason given for this decision is to combat piracy. I would hope that anyone who plays FM during worktime, or visits FM forums during worktime, would look to themselves if considering banging on about piracy.

  58. #4058
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    hahahahahahahahahahaha brilliant

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    pft its blasphemy to even suggest the holy one would be involved in pirating
    if his cracked copy had the magical win button then you might be right................
    wwfan to play Moses perhaps :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    wwfan to play Moses perhaps :-)
    hahahahaha wwfan leading the boys! Kriss is prob old enough that he could play the role of god

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    hahahahaha wwfan leading the boys! Kriss is prob old enough that he could play the role of god
    Commandment #4: Remember the defensive line, keep it linked to mentality.

    Is Deuteronomy something to do with "rule of two"?. Just asking....

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    Commandment #4: Remember the defensive line, keep it linked to mentality.

    Is Deuteronomy something to do with "rule of two"?. Just asking....
    Commandment #7 - tho shall not play through balls through the middle for the whole game.....

    i have no idea to be honest, my knowledge of religion stretches to about as much as i have posted in this thread

  63. #4063
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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Commandment #7 - tho shall not play through balls through the middle for the whole game.....

    i have no idea to be honest, my knowledge of religion stretches to about as much as i have posted in this thread
    Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's Cruyff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Perhaps when you make some software and 40 million people steal it, you might be a bit more sympathetic to SI's plight.
    Piracy is not theft! It's piracy.

    It doesn't matter if a million people pirate FM, or if a billion people pirate it - SI don't make less money if more people pirate, since anything times zero is zero. The number who pirate actually doesn't mean much.

    Strictly speaking, pirates buy more, so a billion pirates might actually be better...

    Developers get angry at a lack of control, rather than the actual piracy. The software is being distributed on terms they didn't agree with. This is why the games industry gets so worked-up over the second-hand market, too.

    Piracy can't be stopped, so in a lot of ways it is pointless to spend so much time and effort fighting it.

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    As FM is our religion I can't knock the most recent round of analogies so I'll probably just infract the first poster on every new page, this will either slow this thread down or appeal immensely to the inveterate gamblers

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    Shouldnt be a major issue anyway. I buy a 25k car, I consider resale/devaluation. I buy a 35 PC game (which I know will be 10 retail within a year) - I dont consider "re-sale" too much.
    You don't. Others do. 10 quid may not be a lot of money for you. It might be for others.

    What developers and publishers do not get is that someone who buys a used game in most cases is not willing to pay or even able to afford the retail price anyway. And people who sell the game could in some cases not afford another game if they didn't. Or afford something else. In an economy there is x amount of money available to spend. You spend more on product one, product 2's Sales suffer. I appreciate that the software industry, like everyone else, wants to get the "best deal" for their products. Once they start turning laws upside down and preventing something completely legal from happening (second hand sales) it becomes ugly.
    It gets worse since software companies do not properly inform their customer base of all the consequences steamworks brings. The right for re-sale is a pretty basic one that is taken away. Maybe not for you. Certainly not for me. But just because I don'T wanna make use of it does not mean it can and should just be silently taken away from everbody.

    You started the comparision to cars. they are more expensive, but that'S an argument that won'T count since expensive is relative to your income. I'm dead sure you would not buy a car that through any measure can only be used/driven by yourself, effeticely preventing you from selling the car.

    SW companies have mentioned a ton of reasons for why PC games should be treated differently. I cant see why games, or anything else, should be actually treated differently. And if it is, I expect every customer to be informed about this properly before buying the product.

    It's more about the dynamics stuff like this can create (worst case scenario is to completely prohibit second hand, which again would kill a whole industry, think about eBay, your local second hand dealer etc.). Why would the SW industry be worth more protection than any other industry, and why should we just accept that this industry wants to prevent something that is legal?
    Last edited by bieritarier; 29-09-2011 at 12:41.

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    This whole buying and selling thing is something that the consumer won't quite understand, if it is the case the you are buying a license to play the game then we need to have a clear-cut guideline that everyone understands because it's all quite confusing.

    We can start out with when we go into the local gamming store and we say:

    You - "Hello, I would like to buy a copy of FM"

    Clerk - "Hey look, pal. You are not buying anything, you are just someone who we give the permission to if you want to play our game. Now, fork over your cash..."
    Last edited by Loversleaper; 29-09-2011 at 12:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bieritarier View Post
    You don't. Others do. 10 quid may not be a lot of money for you. It might be for others.

    What developers and publishers do not get is that someone who buys a used game in most cases is not willing to pay or even able to afford the retail price anyway. And people who sell the game could in some cases not afford another game if they didn't. Or afford something else. In an economy there is x amount of money available to spend. You spend more on product one, product 2's Sales suffer. I appreciate that the software industry, like everyone else, wants to get the "best deal" for their products. Once they start turning laws upside down and preventing something completely legal from happening (second hand sales) it becomes ugly.
    It gets worse since software companies do not properly inform their customer base of all the consequences steamworks brings. The right for re-sale is a pretty basic one that is taken away. Maybe not for you. Certainly not for me. But just because I don'T wanna make use of it does not mean it can and should just be silently taken away from everbody.

    You started the comparision to cars. they are more expensive, but that'S an argument that won'T count since expensive is relative to your income. I'm dead sure you would not buy a car that through any measure can only be used/driven by yourself, effeticely preventing you from selling the car.

    SW companies have mentioned a ton of reasons for why PC games, or anything else, should be treated differently. And if it is, I expect every customer to be informed about this properly before buying the product.

    It's more about the dynamics stuff like this can create (worst case scenario is to completely prohibit second hand, which again would kill a whole industry, think about eBay, your local second hand dealer etc.). Why would the SW industry be worth more protection than any other industry, and why should we just accept that this industry wants to prevent something that is legal?
    In no way was I suggesting 10 is not a significant sum, though to some it may be. The point was 10 retail means second hand sell on would be what 3-4 only? For what it is worth I wish I did have 25k free for a new car, though I need a new kitchen more. If I did buy a car though I would not be the only licensed driver, my partner would be able to drive it too - if that is acceptable to the manufacturers!

    Maybe what we the Customers and the retailers seem to battle with is this new rules for a relatively new industry situation. Am not saying SI/Sega are not entitled to do what they can to protect business but such measures dont work if applied to cars, clothing etc so for us to make such associations probably doesnt really help our own understanding.

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    The reason I can't buy FM12 is, I buy the game boxed in the shop SI tell me I've got to download steam, then steam says it wont run with the programs I have installed on my computer (hence the list of programs you need to uninstall or stop before using steam)


    The following applications have been known to cause issues with Steam and playing games:
    Anti-Virus Applications - Any Anti-Virus program could potentially block Steam and Steam game access, especially when not properly configured for use with Steam. Please make sure that Steam and all Steam games are listed as exceptions in these programs. If the issue persists, please try disabling or temporarily uninstalling the program to test the issue.
    • Avast!
    • AVG Anti-virus *
    • BitDefender
    • F-Secure
    • Iobit Advanced System Care *
    • Kaspersky Anti-virus
    • McAfee Anti-virus
    • Nod32 Anti-virus *
    • Norton/Symantec Anti-virus
    • Panda Anti-virus
    • Threatfire
    • Trend Micro
    • VIGuard Anti-virus
    Anti-Spyware Applications
    • Ad Aware
    • CA Pest Patrol
    • PC Tools Spyware Doctor with AntiVirus (may need to disable Full-Screen detection in the Advanced settings)
    • Spybot Search & Destroy
    • Spycatcher Express
    • Spyware Terminator
    • Webroot Spy Sweeper *
    Firewall/Security Applications
    • CA Internet Security Suite
    • Comodo (With Portal 2 running the firewall in Defense+ in training mode allows the game to run)
    • CYBERsitter
    • ESET Smart Security
    • Netlimiter
    • McAfee Personal Firewall
    • Nvidia Network Access Manager/Firewall *
    • Nvidia ForceWare Intelligent Application Manager
    • Outpost Firewall (Disabling System Guard under Proactive Protection allows Portal 2 to run)
    • Panda Internet Security
    • Peer Guardian
    • PeerBlock
    • Tiny Personal Firewall
    • Verizon Internet Security Suite
    • Zone Alarm
    • Constant Guard by Comcast
    • Online Armor
    Other Applications
    • IOBit Advance System Care
    • Airfoil
    • Alcohol 120%
    • AOLacsd.exe (AOL connection driver)
    • ATI Hotkey Poller
    • ATI Tray Tools
    • BitTorrent/uTorrent (all clients)
    • Creative Software (Alchemy, MediaSource 5 on Asus G60VX models specifcally)
    • Catalyst AI
    • Daemon Tools
    • Download Accelerators (all clients)
    • EVGA Precision
    • Garfield Daily Desktop Comic
    • GhostSurf 2007
    • Google Toolbar, Google Updater
    • GSC
    • Hamachi
    • HotSpot Shield
    • K-Lite Codec Pack
    • LimeWire, BearShare or other Peer 2 Peer applications
    • LogMeIn
    • Microsoft Screen Magnifier in Windows 7 (magnify.exe - may cause in-game cursor issues)
    • MSI Afterburner
    • nProtect GameGuard *
    • PC Time Limit
    • Skype
    • Slysoft AnyDVD
    • StarDock KeepSafe
    • SteamWatch
    • iolo System Mechanic
    • TeamSpeak (can lead to mic issues)
    • Total Recorder
    • Tuneup WinStyler Theme Service
    • UPEK Protector Suite
    • Ventrilo (can lead to mic issues)
    • VirtuaGirl 2
    • Western Digital Backup Anywhere
    • Whitesmoke Translator (may cause the Source engine to crash)
    • WindowBlinds
    • Xfire
    * We recommend that applications listed in bold with a ( * ) symbol are fully uninstalled from your system if disabling them does not resolve the issue

  70. #4070
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    This whole buying and selling thing is something that the consumer won't quite understand, if it is the case the you are buying a license to play the game then we need to have a clear-cut guideline that everyone understands because it's all quite confusing.

    We can start out with when we go into the local gamming store and we say:

    You - "Hello, I would like to buy a copy of FM"

    Clerk - "Hey look, pal. You are not buying anything, you are just someone who we give the permission to if you want to play our game. Now, fork over your cash..."

    That is exactly what publishers (and to some extent devlopers) try to achieve. These guys constantly just calculate fantasy numbers about Sales not achieved due to piracy or people re-selling games, counting each downloaded copy + each sold copy as a lost sale. It doe snot take into account the income structure of the target group, average spend on games peole are able to make, the amount of people that first download and then buy (a significant amount of people), download multiple releases, people that downloaded because the game was not released in their country and therefore is almost impossible to get hold of, etc. Granted it is hard to calculate or prove that. I don't support piracy. Just as much I don't support greed.

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    Now I might be mistaken here, but I'm struggling from the initial post to see totally how this will combat piracy? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I could install the game on my PC and then activate it via steam and then I wouldn't need to insert the disk every time. Then I could give the disc to someone else, they could install it, activate it via steam and and play it without the disc, then pass it to friend number 3 and so on.

    Is that not the case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    This whole buying and selling thing is something that the consumer won't quite understand, if it is the case the you are buying a license to play the game then we need to have a clear-cut guideline that everyone understands because it's all quite confusing.

    We can start out with when we go into the local gamming store and we say:

    You - "Hello, I would like to buy a copy of FM"

    Clerk - "Hey look, pal. You are not buying anything, you are just someone who we give the permission to if you want to play our game. Now, fork over your cash..."
    Correct me if im wrong but official adverts for FM games say RRP xyz. It doesnt say RRP (for a license to play the game only - non transferrable) XYZ.If Sega are to get so cut up about this whole issue may be they should be more clear in future......

  73. #4073
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    @pele10

    I run STEAM and I run several of the programs on that list as well.

    I suggest you try and download STEAM, make an account and see if it doesnt work on your PC

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    Kriss is Morgan Freeman, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    In no way was I suggesting 10 is not a significant sum, though to some it may be. The point was 10 retail means second hand sell on would be what 3-4 only? For what it is worth I wish I did have 25k free for a new car, though I need a new kitchen more. If I did buy a car though I would not be the only licensed driver, my partner would be able to drive it too - if that is acceptable to the manufacturers!

    Maybe what we the Customers and the retailers seem to battle with is this new rules for a relatively new industry situation. Am not saying SI/Sega are not entitled to do what they can to protect business but such measures dont work if applied to cars, clothing etc so for us to make such associations probably doesnt really help our own understanding.
    Well, new industry? Around for more than 20 years now. The internet has made it difficult for many people, some reacted better than others.

    I'm going back to the very original point. steamworks does not prevent priacy in any way. Piracy it the problem. steamworks does prevent second hand sales, which is not a huge problem (that is what I said and you supported that view) but the only thing publishers currently can quite effectively prevent, and do prevent since they're using numbers from another reality which make them believe it is a huge problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    In no way was I suggesting 10 is not a significant sum, though to some it may be. The point was 10 retail means second hand sell on would be what 3-4 only? For what it is worth I wish I did have 25k free for a new car, though I need a new kitchen more. If I did buy a car though I would not be the only licensed driver, my partner would be able to drive it too - if that is acceptable to the manufacturers!

    Maybe what we the Customers and the retailers seem to battle with is this new rules for a relatively new industry situation. Am not saying SI/Sega are not entitled to do what they can to protect business but such measures dont work if applied to cars, clothing etc so for us to make such associations probably doesnt really help our own understanding.
    It doesn't work because software is so cheap and easy to replicate, whereas cars aren't. A car is also an asset that can grow and fall in value and gives you huge competitive and economic advantage by having easier mobility.

    Software licensing is an evil the industry now adopts and loves, and customers are largely unaware of how harmful it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pele10 View Post
    The reason I can't buy FM12 is, I buy the game boxed in the shop SI tell me I've got to download steam, then steam says it wont run with the programs I have installed on my computer (hence the list of programs you need to uninstall or stop before using steam)
    You need to be properly accurate, if you have problems running Steam and have any of those applications, they MAY be the cause, not they WILL cause Steam to malfunction.

    I have four on that list and Steam runs just fine for me.

  78. #4078
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas66 View Post
    Now I might be mistaken here, but I'm struggling from the initial post to see totally how this will combat piracy? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I could install the game on my PC and then activate it via steam and then I wouldn't need to insert the disk every time. Then I could give the disc to someone else, they could install it, activate it via steam and and play it without the disc, then pass it to friend number 3 and so on.

    Is that not the case?

    the activation code will be mapped to your account and cannot be used on another account subsequently. you are neither allowed to share or sell your account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave80 View Post
    Although I agree with your reasoning, in terms of brothers having to buy 2 copies of the game who live in the same house. The fact that you are effectively justifying piracy, which not only costs SI and other game makers but also the consumer (YOU!) is just baffling. If piracy didn't exist SI wouldn't have to spend time, money and resources having to combat it and that cost is reflected in the game price. Simple. It's also the reason why everyone has to use Steam.
    Surely that means every multi player game is pro piracy?, also if nomore than the one person who bought the game can play it why can you add manager to create one or more managers of a team? seems exactly the same to me unless the original owner had to be there as well, which as they live in the same house makes that null? Just for clarity i am in no way advocating piracy, just seems we wandered into a grey area

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    I use AVG and never stopped it to install steam or FM, its seems to have worked fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Piracy is not theft! It's piracy.
    Software piracy is the illegal distribution and/or reproduction of software applications for business or personal use. Whether software piracy is deliberate or not, it is still illegal and punishable by law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    I use AVG and never stopped it to install steam or FM, its seems to have worked fine.
    Ditto.^^^^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaTTsSpURs View Post
    Surely that means every multi player game is pro piracy?, also if nomore than the one person who bought the game can play it why can you add manager to create one or more managers of a team? seems exactly the same to me unless the original owner had to be there as well, which as they live in the same house makes that null? Just for clarity i am in no way advocating piracy, just seems we wandered into a grey area
    The license is to run one copy of the game on one computer at one time, the number of people using said copy at that time is irrelevant.

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    ok im a relative newbie so thanks for clearing that up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    You need to be properly accurate, if you have problems running Steam and have any of those applications, they MAY be the cause, not they WILL cause Steam to malfunction.

    I have four on that list and Steam runs just fine for me.
    Not aimed at Kriss particularly but can anyone enlighten me about VirtuaGirl2 ? LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Software licensing is an evil the industry now adopts and loves, and customers are largely unaware of how harmful it is.
    Software licensing has always been around, it is just now company's are trying to enforce it.

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    This is totally pointless - why do you have to have the Internet to play a game. It drives me crazy when my Internet is down or I'm not at home and I want to play on FM. This is really, really STUPID!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by robilaz View Post
    This is totally pointless - why do you have to have the Internet to play a game. It drives me crazy when my Internet is down or I'm not at home and I want to play on FM. This is really, really STUPID!!!!
    You don't need internet? Just start Steam in offline mode after you activate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Software piracy is the illegal distribution and/or reproduction of software applications for business or personal use. Whether software piracy is deliberate or not, it is still illegal and punishable by law.
    Well, yes, but you cannot compare it to theft, which has an obvious emotive response. It just so happens that it is one of those offences where the damage does not scale linearly (or greater) with the number of offences, but rather has diminishing returns, unlike theft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robilaz View Post
    This is totally pointless - why do you have to have the Internet to play a game. It drives me crazy when my Internet is down or I'm not at home and I want to play on FM. This is really, really STUPID!!!!
    Authenticate it online once. Then switch to offline mode. You won't need internet access again.
    https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...3160-AGCB-2555

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Well, yes, but you cannot compare it to theft, which has an obvious emotive response. It just so happens that it is one of those offences where the damage does not scale linearly (or greater) with the number of offences, but rather has diminishing returns, unlike theft.
    It's not exactly the same as stealing or theft, but it's a form of it. When someone pirates software it damages everyone. The software developers are hit, retail shops sales go down, and anyone that legitimately purchases the software is hit (where more sales would = more funds to improve/expand the software [in theory]). The illegal distribution and duplication of any software is damaging and has an impact on the economy. Where software piracy isn't anything new (rife since the 1960's) it is a lot more accessible with the advent of the internet. And nowadays computers are taught in the classroom and it should be taught in school what EULAs are, and how pirating software is damaging the economy, developers and the loyal customer. Even moreso in todays society. It just needs to be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    It's not exactly the same as stealing or theft, but it's a form of it.
    Form? Not really - it's under a different set of laws altogether. Piracy falls under copyright infringement, which is different to the theft and fraud acts in many countries, with not a lot of overlap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    When someone pirates software it damages everyone. The software developers are hit

    [snip]
    Debateable. As I said before, a million pirates and a billion pirates make no difference to SI's bottom line, since anything times zero is zero. What matters is sales.

    If piracy didn't exist, then sales do not automatically go up. In fact, due to a lack of word-of-mouth, it might even go down.

    Lots of people pirate because the software is free, not necessarily because they would have bought it if it wasn't available to pirate. You can pirate a rubbish game but the publisher doesn't get to claim lost sales because nobody would have bought their game anyway.

    The scholarly evidence for piracy out there has mixed conclusions at best. One of the main things that is clear, however, is that pirates buy more - weaken the economy? It's not very clear-cut at all.

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    Regardless, someone is getting something for free instead of paying for it. Whether the game is rubbish or not. Someone else is enjoying that for nothing, where the person who created it is getting nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Regardless, someone is getting something for free instead of paying for it. Whether the game is rubbish or not. Someone else is enjoying that for nothing, where the person who created it is getting nothing.
    Yes, and I'm saying that if they didn't have the option of piracy, a lot of users are still not going to purchase your software, so the person who created it still gets nothing.

    For those that will, the additional sales must balance out the lack of word-of-mouth of the software (piracy spreads the popularity of the software, as does legitimate sales), as well as the fact that some pirates actually pirate then purchase which isn't going to happen any more.

    The word-of-mouth is a big factor. Piracy is part of the reason why the likes of Adobe Photoshop are so popular. If Adobe had walled-off Photoshop with incredibly tough DRM and anti-piracy measures, it would never be as popular as it is today. The word-of-mouth effect cannot be underestimated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    It's not exactly the same as stealing or theft, but it's a form of it. When someone pirates software it damages everyone. The software developers are hit, retail shops sales go down, and anyone that legitimately purchases the software is hit (where more sales would = more funds to improve/expand the software [in theory]). The illegal distribution and duplication of any software is damaging and has an impact on the economy. Where software piracy isn't anything new (rife since the 1960's) it is a lot more accessible with the advent of the internet. And nowadays computers are taught in the classroom and it should be taught in school what EULAs are, and how pirating software is damaging the economy, developers and the loyal customer. Even moreso in todays society. It just needs to be done.
    This is a joke right!

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    That's implying that word of mouth is only spread by people who pirate the game.

    I wish Adobe had walled off Photoshop and it's other software. The amount of useless ***** using Photoshop as a page layout program is astonishing. Nevermind they don't understand basic terms such as bleed, colour management, colour profiles, typography, imposition, scale, basic design principles, and a couple of dozen other things.

    Although, personally I do know people who are leading contributors to the Adobe community who admit they first pirated the software, then bought it later. But it's hardly comparable to football manager. With a Creative Suite for adobe costing in the €1000's compared to €30 for Football Manager. Yeh there are people that will Pirate then buy later. But most won't. Most will go out of their way to not pay for the game they enjoy. And if they do enjoy it and piracy is made more difficult for them, they are likely to buy it than not.



    If you can get Football Manger into a TV show, like Photoshop was introduced to CSI and the likes. The magic CSI Photoshop can zoom into a reflection of a screw to see someones face wearing sunglasses and then zoom in further to see the reflection of the sunglasses to the person who murdered him.

    Photoshop partially popular due to Piracy, which really spiralled out of control with Hollywood versions of the software.

    Piracy existed before the internet for all software. The internet just accelerates it. And I applaud any measure to slow it down.
    Last edited by Eugene Tyson; 29-09-2011 at 14:38.

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    Q. Can I play more than 1 copy of Football Manager 2012 at a time?
    A. As mentioned, you can have the game installed on more than one machine at a time, but you can only play on a single machine. If you were playing on your desktop and then moved to your laptop, you would need to log-in to Steam on your laptop, which would then sign you out of your desktop.
    Can someone please tell me what mechanism prevents the same copy being played on more than one computer at the same time when using offline mode?!

    I am asking because it is not covered in the answer above, and as this activation method is purely about preventing piracy, I would like to know that this aspect of it actually works.

    Cheers
    xxx

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    There is none. You can have one copy in offline mode and one in online mode playing at the same time, but this is in violation with the terms of use. You can't have countless offline installs as the game at some point needs to be activated and thus permanently tied to a specific Steam account, and sharing this account is once again against terms of use (and will usually result in account termination).
    Last edited by Scab; 29-09-2011 at 15:10. Reason: typos

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    I think piracy can't be stopped. This anti-piracy feature was not on FM09?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    That's implying that word of mouth is only spread by people who pirate the game.

    Piracy existed before the internet for all software. The internet just accelerates it. And I applaud any measure to slow it down.
    UBI Launcher, EA Origin, Securom and the like.

    I think we all understood your position, and I don't think anybody has actively supported piracy.

    But let'S see what the measures have brought paying customers:
    - need to be permanently online (Ubi Launcher)
    - requirement to disclose personal information to publishers or other companies (Ubi Launcher, Steam, EA Origin etc).
    - specific DRM drivers messing up your system (Securom) or even spying on you in the background (see the Sony Music scandal).
    - unskippable anti-piracy messages on Blu Ray and DVD.
    - compatibility issues with other (legal) software (Nero image drive and Securom), and therefore a shedload of work to get a game or whatever else running.
    - compatibility issues with older hardware (DVD players, DVD drives, CD players, mp3 players)
    - limited rights to copy the data (games, music, video) to other devices even for your personal use.
    etc.

    The only thing pirates have to do (sometimes) is spend some time setting the stuff up. After that, you don't have to suffer from all the invasive DRM.

    I stopped buying CDs using DRM measures 5 or 6 years ago since my car headunit had serious issues playing them. And I am not legally allowed to rip the music and copy it across to another medium (CD, USB stick). Luckily I mostly listen to indie bands and most indie labels stopped this crap.

    I will not buy from any online music store that uses DRM either. The danger of not being able to play it on either my portable mp3 player of in my car is too high - let alone the other restrictions.

    I made my peace with Steam - as long as I can activate a boxed copy of the game. I rarely buy online since STEAM in Germany is a ripoff company. I will not pay twice as much as people in the US or the UK just because STEAM only offers euro prices for Germany.
    Equally, I will not buy games of which I cannot activate the much cheaper UK version in Germany - this btw is another example that shows that it's about maximizing profits.

    That's just me and quite a lot of my friends. Now would I buy more stuff if these DRM measure were not in place? Probably not since I have bills to pay. Would the companies currently using heavy DRM be making more money from me if they removed the invasive stuff? - most likely since their product are not worse than the stuff I buy. I just don't like the package that comes with it.

    So you check the number of customers you lose because they'Re fed up with all the DRM crap. Then that a priate doesn't have to worry about all that crap. What, apart from legal action is the motivation for a pirate to shell out money for something that means a lot more trouble than downloading for free?
    Last edited by bieritarier; 29-09-2011 at 15:30.

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