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Thread: A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    This is why the whole conversation about the law doesn't make sense at all. If the government came out and said "you need a license (like the TV license issue) to play a video-game" then for sure I would get one. If the government went out and said "by law you need internet connection and Steam to play video games" then I probably would - but this is NOT the case. The whole argument regarding laws doesn't hold water for the pro-movement.
    All I can say is nobody is arguing that is the case. You clearly have no idea about software licence agreements.
    Last edited by afced7; 22-09-2011 at 14:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    Neither do I, why would they when they have the digital download route. But eggs and basket are two words that spring to mind.
    I don't think digital only is very likely for a long time to come, but I don't think the distribution of hard copy will ever be properly tied down, as I said even if Sega get their bit right there are plenty of other links in the chain(s) that don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phnompenhandy View Post
    Yes, i'm skimming the thread and glazing over it. Can someone perhaps offer a brief objective summary of the main substantive arguments and facts so far?
    You will save youself a lot of time if you start on page 30 post#2942.

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    The way it is in Ireland, you must have a TV license if you have any TV in the household, regardless if it's in working condition or not, as it's deemed repairable.

    But just so you know, they are changing this to a Media License, so if you have a computer or radio, or any form of communication, including internet, you must get this Media License.

    Similarly with Football Manager, you have a single license with terms and conditions. Whether you like it or not, or agree with it or not. That's just fact.

    And the other fact is, you need Steam to Authenticate the installation, so that SI can be sure that Licenses they sold in good faith are not being redistributed and used by 2 or more people.


    You need Steam to play FM12. Most of the posts at the beginning were about how "poor Steam is", which were mostly unfounded. With a handful of people with genuine concerns.

    Again, if your min specs meet FM12 requirements, and your machine will run FM12 - then it will definitely be able to handle Steam.


    For those without an internet connection, they will have to jump through hoops to get Steam installed and authenticate the game. That's very unfortunate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    You sign it digitally by clicking ok, out of interest which parts are not legal, i would highly doubt any company could put anything in there that wasnt legal.
    I have never seen an EULA that requires a digital signature. All ive seen so far is check this box to proceed type of EULAs.

    Cant be bothered to read one now and point out the blatantly silly things. Just read one once and you will see there are plenty of things in there that law allows you to do. Besides there is only one EULA and hundreds of different countries and states with different laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    All I can say is nobody is arguing that is the case. You clearly have no idea about software licence agreements.
    Your right, we haven't been talking about laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Think of Steam as the TV license in that situation, you buy a TV and you MUST have a TV license to be lawful, you buy FM you MUST have steam to be lawful, Steam is your license to use the product, only, ullike a TV license, its free.
    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    I don't think your making any sense in all this.

    The EULA is part of a law that states you cannot re-sell a PC game after you have installed it on your computer, nothing about having an internet connection. SEGA have decided in order to enforce the EULA, amongst various other things, that you must use Steam to activate and authenticate their product, unfortunately Steam requires an internet connection to activate the first time. There are other options of course, but SEGA have decided this is the way they are going this year. They are following suit of most major game companies who have also tried to enforce the EULA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Herter View Post
    No.. but when you buy a TV you ARE forced to pay for the license.. ;)
    Quote Originally Posted by eddymunster View Post
    Basically yes, Same as if you buy a TV you have to buy a licence if you want to watch television broadcasts on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    They are abiding by the rules of governments though, otherwise the existence of a EULA would be illegal.

    Maybe you should start standing up for the little man and take all the major game developers to court over your belief that a software licence agreement is illegal.
    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Its not about fighting for anyone, its about the law, we dont write the laws, we are only passing on the information you seem to be missing. Ok the TV one is better than the car anaolgy, you buy a TV or anything that can recieve a TV signal then you must have a TV license, even if you watch only one channel that is not related in anyway to the BBC you must have a TV license. Where is your free choice then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    Your right, we haven't been talking about laws...
    Again, nobody is saying we haven't been discussing laws. Yet another straw man, just like the majority of your arguments have been.

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    This whole thing is crazy.

    when you buy software it comes with a license, that is an agreement, a contract, that you install it for yourself and nobody else.

    FM was being sold on and being used by the person that sold it on. Clear breach of contract.

    Steps being taken now to try prevent this, delay it or whatever.

    You must use Steam and have an internet connection to activate your copy of the game.


    If you don't like Steam then that's your business, you can't play FM12.

    If you don't have an internet connection you'll have to be resourceful and come up with a plan. Laptops are easier to bring to internet cafe, hotel etc. Desktops not so much, so perhaps a friend, or someone in work, or a relative? Sort something out for yourself if you really want to play it.

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    Okay, I am fully read up (although I do type slowly) so I can carry on with why I came here.
    Where Is The Steam FAQ?
    and for that matter where is the FAQ, Helping & Advising People Without A Suitable Home Internet Connection?
    For now I will concern myself with the former.

    SI/SEGA must have taken into account the fact that they were likely to alienate and lose some existing customers by taking this activation route. Their company, their decision.
    Various reasons have been given why previous customers won't be buying FM12 due to SI/SEGA's decision, ranging from principles to a personal dislike of Steam/Valve.

    What SI/SEGA haven't done is take care not to upset or alienate previous customers whose concerns are based on the lack of information about Steam.

    It is an utter disgrace that there wasn't a complete Steam FAQ posted at the same time as the announcement about Steam activation, and only incompetence or contempt can be put forward as an excuse for there still not being one. The announcement thread contains a lot of misleading and biased information, and if SI/SEGA extend the consideration, which led them to 'not take this decision lightly', to making sure everyone has the correct information, they may find they won't lose quite so many customers or goodwill, now or in the future.
    Last edited by pigfacemonkeyman; 22-09-2011 at 15:45. Reason: typo

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    It is an utter disgrace that there wasn't a complete Steam FAQ posted at the same time as the announcement about Steam activation, and only incompetence or contempt can be put forward as an excuse for there still not being one. The announcement thread contains a lot of misleading and biased information, and if SI/SEGA extend the consideration, which led them to 'not take this decision lightly', to making sure everyone has the correct information, they may find they won't lose as many customers or goodwill, now or in the future.
    Or the more likely case of Steam having over 30 million users and they probably did not expect so many people to not know how it worked. Do not attribute things to malice which can be put down to under-estimating things. But I do fully agree that there should be a sticked FAQ about Steam and how it works.

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    FAQ
    https://support.steampowered.com/

    New To Steam
    https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...7141-OPGX-5121


    Although I did say at the very start the there should a thread about Steam and what it is an all other related info.


    Clearly SI didn't take into account that some people can't research these things themselves? And the people that didn't have the right information or seeked information came on here flaming Steam without justification, not bothering to ask questions. Some did, went off happy with the info they got.

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    Lets just say this is the last time I am looking in this thread. Specially when some people are just arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm not saying any names but I know one that is here, that is just here for the banter and will argue against anything that is said. Thus dragging the debate on longer than it should and not leaving this space for people with genuine issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Welsh Lad View Post
    Lets just say this is the last time I am looking in this thread. Specially when some people are just arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm not saying any names but I know one that is here, that is just here for the banter and will argue against anything that is said. Thus dragging the debate on longer than it should and not leaving this space for people with genuine issues.
    It really does block out those who are actually looking for help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    FAQ
    https://support.steampowered.com/

    New To Steam
    https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...7141-OPGX-5121


    Although I did say at the very start the there should a thread about Steam and what it is an all other related info.


    Clearly SI didn't take into account that some people can't research these things themselves? And the people that didn't have the right information or seeked information came on here flaming Steam without justification, not bothering to ask questions. Some did, went off happy with the info they got.
    A Steam FAQ is being prepared (nearly complete I understand) it may be they wanted to see what came from this thread so they could make it as complete as possible in relation to FM12, but as has been pointed out Googling Steam will get anybody the basic info and if they have the time and inclination to type whole pages on here about it then inability to read it is hardly a justification for not doing so?

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    Thanks Kriss. That is reassuring to know. I'm sure SI will be able to give all the facts about Steam.

    And I hope it's a locked sticky thread for info only - like the blogs are done.


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    I forgot my analogy: If you want to know all about a BMW you don't go to a Ford showroom

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    another car analogy





    ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    I forgot my analogy: If you want to know all about a BMW you don't go to a Ford showroom
    Just spat my coffee - nice one Kriss

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    Completely off topic, but once you get FM12 you simply must manage in Argentina Division 2, the refs wear the most lurid pink I've ever seen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    Completely off topic, but once you get FM12 you simply must manage in Argentina Division 2, the refs wear the most lurid pink I've ever seen
    This is meant literally by the way, it's in really small writing on the back of the box, anti-piracy measure.

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    when you buy software it comes with a license, that is an agreement this is rubbish ...

    once you buy something its yours to do as you please . no if , not buts .

    you buy a ford car . you sell it on , you buy a sony tv . you sell it on .... buit si want you to buy there game ...pay for there game ....but in fact it never really is yours ? WRONG WRONG

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattoman65 View Post
    when you buy software it comes with a license, that is an agreement this is rubbish ...

    once you buy something its yours to do as you please . no if , not buts .

    you buy a ford car . you sell it on , you buy a sony tv . you sell it on .... buit si want you to buy there game ...pay for there game ....but in fact it never really is yours ? WRONG WRONG
    Be careful, you're not a member of this gentleman's club. ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattoman65 View Post
    when you buy software it comes with a license, that is an agreement this is rubbish ...

    once you buy something its yours to do as you please . no if , not buts .

    you buy a ford car . you sell it on , you buy a sony tv . you sell it on .... buit si want you to buy there game ...pay for there game ....but in fact it never really is yours ? WRONG WRONG
    As has been stated numerous times before, this is how things are - like it or not - with the vast majority of PC software, including Windows, any FM...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattoman65 View Post
    when you buy software it comes with a license, that is an agreement this is rubbish ...

    once you buy something its yours to do as you please . no if , not buts .

    you buy a ford car . you sell it on , you buy a sony tv . you sell it on .... buit si want you to buy there game ...pay for there game ....but in fact it never really is yours ? WRONG WRONG
    Take it up with the relevant court in your country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattoman65 View Post
    when you buy software it comes with a license, that is an agreement this is rubbish ...

    once you buy something its yours to do as you please . no if , not buts .

    you buy a ford car . you sell it on , you buy a sony tv . you sell it on .... buit si want you to buy there game ...pay for there game ....but in fact it never really is yours ? WRONG WRONG
    Incorrect.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license_agreement

    http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/E/EULA.html

    http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/

    And google that as much as you like

    Here's the mention of the iPad Software in their EULA

    The software (including Boot ROM code and other embedded software), documentation, interfaces, content, fonts and any data that came with your iPad
    ("Original iPad Software"), as may be updated or replaced by feature enhancements, software updates or system restore software provided by Apple ("iPad Software
    Updates"), whether in read only memory, on any other media or in any other form (the Original iPad Software and iPad Software Updates are collectively referred to as the
    “iPad Software") are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple Inc. ("Apple") for use only under the terms of this License. Apple and its licensors retain ownership of the iPad
    Software itself and reserve all rights not expressly granted to you.
    Check out the iPad 2 License regarding software and transfer

    3. Transfer. You may not rent, lease, lend, sell, redistribute, or sublicense the iPad Software. You may, however, make a one-time permanent transfer of all of your license
    rights to the iPad Software
    to another party in connection with the transfer of ownership of your iPad, provided that: (a) the transfer must include your iPad and all of the
    iPad Software
    , including all its component parts, original media, printed materials and this License; (b) you do not retain any copies of the iPad Software, full or partial,
    including copies stored on a computer or other storage device; and (c) the party receiving the iPad Software reads and agrees to accept the terms and conditions of this
    License.
    Even with iPads you have to transfer ownership to someone else. You can't retain anything.

    Same goes with any Software. If you are selling it you may not keep any part of it. Same goes for FM. You may not keep a copy for yourself all of the ownership of the game must be transferred.


    Classic example:

    Do you think it's fair that you bought an iPad for $500 and then you can only use a memory hog of iTunes to update and transfer files thereto?

    Remember iTunes is a 3rd Party App too.
    Last edited by Eugene Tyson; 22-09-2011 at 16:43.

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    iPad was taken as an example.

    Go ahead and look up ANY EULA pertaining to software.

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    Lets make this clear .

    The main reason SI are doing this has nothing what so ever to do with piracy. or if they think it has they are very wrong .
    reasons.

    at most there can only be in the 100s of pirate copys each year .. you only have to look at the seeds to tell only a few 100 download pirate copys ..

    So SI why o why ... yes your sales have droped by the tens off 1000s . but trust me there are not tens of 1000s of folk that would even have the nohow in how to run a pirate copy ..

    the real reason your sales have taken a big hit . is because the game is no longer fun to play for a lot of folk ..that is the hole truth of it .

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattoman65 View Post
    when you buy software it comes with a license, that is an agreement this is rubbish ...

    once you buy something its yours to do as you please . no if , not buts .

    you buy a ford car . you sell it on , you buy a sony tv . you sell it on .... buit si want you to buy there game ...pay for there game ....but in fact it never really is yours ? WRONG WRONG
    "The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, is the current UK copyright law. It gives the creators of literary, dramatic, musical and artistic works the right to control the ways in which their material may be used. The rights cover: Broadcast and public performance, copying, adapting, issuing, renting and lending copies to the public." Taken from this site: http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/co...uk_law_summary

    EULAs are just exercising a legal right. It is not yours to do with as you please, however much you protest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Do you think it's fair that you bought an iPad for $500 and then you can only use a memory hog of iTunes to update and transfer files thereto?

    Remember iTunes is a 3rd Party App too.
    i can almost guarantee you these same people will say they dont use Itunes, just you wait

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattoman65 View Post
    Lets make this clear .

    The main reason SI are doing this has nothing what so ever to do with piracy. or if they think it has they are very wrong .
    reasons.

    at most there can only be in the 100s of pirate copys each year .. you only have to look at the seeds to tell only a few 100 download pirate copys ..

    So SI why o why ... yes your sales have droped by the tens off 1000s . but trust me there are not tens of 1000s of folk that would even have the nohow in how to run a pirate copy ..

    the real reason your sales have taken a big hit . is because the game is no longer fun to play for a lot of folk ..that is the hole truth of it .

    Eh that's not how you figure these things out. SI and/or Sega have teams that work on this.

    Just because there 100 seeds. That only means 100 people are hosting it. Nothing to do with the amount of people that downloaded it.

    In their post they stated that if 1/4 (a quarter) of the people that pirated the game actually bought the game it would double the sales.

    So if there was 1,000,000 people buying it. Then there 4,000,000 people pirating it.


    Think about that. Wouldn't you want your software protected somehow? At least to delay?


    SI have no reason to lie to you. Nor do SEGA. Look into Steam. Look into what it was designed for.


    These conspiracies of this not being a piracy issue are bizarre. It's completely to do with Piracy. Else they wouldn't bother locking people into Steam and not giving them another option.

    They didn't do it for FM09, FM10, FM11 because they didn't have a good way of delaying piracy. Now they do. And they are using it.
    Last edited by Eugene Tyson; 22-09-2011 at 16:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    i can almost guarantee you these same people will say they dont use Itunes, just you wait
    And they'll buy an iPad or win one, or someone will buy them one and they'll be FORCED to use a 3rd party App to update it. Grrrrrr.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by playmaker View Post
    "The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, is the current UK copyright law. It gives the creators of literary, dramatic, musical and artistic works the right to control the ways in which their material may be used. The rights cover: Broadcast and public performance, copying, adapting, issuing, renting and lending copies to the public." Taken from this site: http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/co...uk_law_summary

    EULAs are just exercising a legal right. It is not yours to do with as you please, however much you protest.

    you have to laugh at you folk : most of which dont no anything about law what so ever . copyright .. thats the word read it again ... copyright .. let me break it up for you ....COPY- RIGHT .. which in the main means you cannot copy it

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattoman65 View Post
    you have to laugh at you folk : most of which dont no anything about law what so ever .
    So... do you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    And they'll buy an iPad or win one, or someone will buy them one and they'll be FORCED to use a 3rd party App to update it. Grrrrrr.....
    I must have missed the 10ft letters saying "you must have the internet and Itunes to use this product" when i bought my ipod, where's my lawyer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Eh that's not how you figure these things out. SI and/or Sega have teams that work on this.

    Just because there 100 seeds. That only means 100 people are hosting it. Nothing to do with the amount of people that downloaded it.

    In their post they stated that if 1/4 (a quarter) of the people that pirated the game actually bought the game it would double the sales.

    So if there was 1,000,000 people buying it. Then there 4,000,000 people pirating it.


    Think about that. Wouldn't you want your software protected somehow? At least to delay?


    SI have no reason to lie to you. Nor do SEGA. Look into Steam. Look into what it was designed for.


    These conspiracies of this not being a piracy issue are bizarre. It's completely to do with Piracy. Else they wouldn't bother locking people into Steam and not giving them another option.

    They didn't do it for FM09, FM10, FM11 because they didn't have a good way of delaying piracy. Now they do. And they are using it.


    they didnt sell .. because they game is not playabal to most .. its become more in depth , longer to play ..

    there is no true reading on this ... but its not all down to piracy issue .. i am saying that SI have read it wrong ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattoman65 View Post
    they didnt sell .. because they game is not playabal to most .. its become more in depth , longer to play ..

    there is no true reading on this ... but its not all down to piracy issue .. i am saying that SI have read it wrong ....
    You've spent 3 years with SI and SEGA figuring this out? You've got a company that employs 100's of people that collaborates with other companies on this and are experts in their fields?

    Please do tell?

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    And the other thing i wanna add. why risk upsetting your main customs ... because lets face it ... every single game on steam to this day has been cracked ... so there will still be priate copys off the game anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Eh that's not how you figure these things out. SI and/or Sega have teams that work on this.

    Just because there 100 seeds. That only means 100 people are hosting it. Nothing to do with the amount of people that downloaded it.

    In their post they stated that if 1/4 (a quarter) of the people that pirated the game actually bought the game it would double the sales.

    So if there was 1,000,000 people buying it. Then there 4,000,000 people pirating it.


    Think about that. Wouldn't you want your software protected somehow? At least to delay?


    SI have no reason to lie to you. Nor do SEGA. Look into Steam. Look into what it was designed for.


    These conspiracies of this not being a piracy issue are bizarre. It's completely to do with Piracy. Else they wouldn't bother locking people into Steam and not giving them another option.

    They didn't do it for FM09, FM10, FM11 because they didn't have a good way of delaying piracy. Now they do. And they are using it.
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...re-piracy-rate

    So, if SI/SEGA or anyone else thinks that they can get most of the these countries to pay for a product they can't afford to start with then your statement will make sense - everything else is simply hear-say...

    On top, we are back to EULA rules/laws plain and simply force us to have internet connections and have Steam present on our computers to run games...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    You've spent 3 years with SI and SEGA figuring this out? You've got a company that employs 100's of people that collaborates with other companies on this and are experts in their fields?

    Please do tell?
    really. do you really think it would even take a few 100s of people 3 years to work that out ... now your really sounding funny

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattoman65 View Post
    And the other thing i wanna add. why risk upsetting your main customs ... because lets face it ... every single game on steam to this day has been cracked ... so there will still be priate copys off the game anyway
    Well that's true. There's pirate copies of every piece of software that is currently available.

    The idea is to delay piracy.

    I've said this about 20 times already but I'll go again.


    In the past people who pre-ordered the game suddenly cancelled their pre-orders on the same day the pirated versions were released. So sales were lost before the game was even launched. Now not every person that cancelled was due to the pirated version being made available. But it's a pretty big coincidence.

    Now SI have said that since they released the information about Steam only activation - that preorders have sky-rocketed compared to other years.


    The idea here is it's not going to prevent piracy. But it will delay it. And the people that don't want Steam accounts banned, or people that won't trust 3rd party suppliers of a cracked game, will use Steam.


    It's already working. They've already made more sales in pre-orders compared to other years.


    So I ask, what's the difference in using a Steam (3rd party) legitimate install of the game - compared to using a 3rd party (torrent client) and downloading potentially malicious software - remember this is a cracked game - they can put all sorts of things into the download in the torrent.


    Fact remains. Pirating is stealing.

    As I said earlier. If 1/4 of the people that pirate actually pirate the game, then they will double their sales.


    That means 1,000,000 people that buy the game, there are 4,000,000 people pirating it.

    That's ridiculous.

    Can you blame them for wanting to get that figure down?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...re-piracy-rate

    So, if SI/SEGA or anyone else thinks that they can get most of the these countries to pay for a product they can't afford to start with then your statement will make sense - everything else is simply hear-say...

    On top, we are back to EULA rules/laws plain and simply force us to have internet connections and have Steam present on our computers to run games...
    I'd just like to point out that piracy RATE could be a little misleading, it is possible that while a country such as Armenia has a higher piracy rate than say the UK, more people overall may illegally download software in the UK.

    Once again you're wrong about EULAs but tbf you hadn't heard of them until recently so a degree of confusion is to be expected.
    Last edited by afced7; 22-09-2011 at 17:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattoman65 View Post
    really. do you really think it would even take a few 100s of people 3 years to work that out ... now your really sounding funny
    Well you're the one that knows it all. So tell us?

    Apparently 3 companies that specialise in software can't figure it out.

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    He can't Eugene

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    Forgive me if I find the repetitive replies based on party lines amusing. Pavlov would be proud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattoman65 View Post
    you have to laugh at you folk : most of which dont no anything about law what so ever . copyright .. thats the word read it again ... copyright .. let me break it up for you ....COPY- RIGHT .. which in the main means you cannot copy it
    Unfortunately for your argument I worked in the PC auditing and software licensing industry for 11 years on over 400 projects.

    The law states that the copyright holder has the exclusive right to make copies and that no-one else can do so without the copyright holder licensing them to do so. The word 'licence' is expressly used in the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...re-piracy-rate

    So, if SI/SEGA or anyone else thinks that they can get most of the these countries to pay for a product they can't afford to start with then your statement will make sense - everything else is simply hear-say...

    On top, we are back to EULA rules/laws plain and simply force us to have internet connections and have Steam present on our computers to run games...
    Do you think people pirate just because they can't afford? The usual attitude is "why should I pay for it if I can get it for free".

    The answer is "Well we're going to make it as hard as possible for you to get it for free!"

    This could be cruel - but it's a semi-joke
    SI should release their own pirated version of it with excellent download speeds and put a tracker in the code and track each and every person down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    Forgive me if I find the repetitive replies based on party lines amusing. Pavlov would be proud.
    Maybe people should stop making repetitive arguments against steam then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    He can't Eugene
    Yeh I know. I'm finding it amusing that one person thinks that they have the answer, compared to 100's of people over possibly longer period than 3 years, who are experts in their fields.

    Mind-bottling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    This could be cruel - but it's a semi-joke
    SI should release their own pirated version of it with excellent download speeds and put a tracker in the code and track each and every person down.
    Overkill - they can just release it as a torrent and monitor that. But then again, one IP address cannot be tied down to a single person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    Maybe people should stop making repetitive arguments against steam then.
    If nobody was repetitive about anything this thread would be 4 pages long;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Overkill - they can just release it as a torrent and monitor that. But then again, one IP address cannot be tied down to a single person.
    Yeh but if they nuked the general area at least they'd get them no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    I'd just like to point out that piracy RATE could be a little misleading, it is possible that while a country such as Armenia has a higher piracy rate than say the UK, more people overall may illegally download software in the UK.
    And you are basing your analysis on what?

    I'll tell you, my friend, that it is no secret that a huge ammount of the % of piracy happens in countries that have a really low income, thus the reason for them having to pirate something they simply can't afford. So, to suggest that Steam will magically make these people richer in order to buy the game is frankly a sign of people being in a state of delusion, even if we delayed it the figures won't be anywhere near 25% - you seriously don't think these people can "afford" to wait a couple of days?

    Yeah, if 25% of the people who drive VW bought a merc instead then profits for merc inc. would definatly double - just check out how much loose change you got in your wallet first. (I know I know, I'm sorry Kriss for mentioning the damn car)...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    our

    And you are basing your analysis on what?
    I'm not basing any analysis on anything, I'm just pointing out that piracy rate COULD be a little misleading. Please read the post again. Once again you've twisted what I said into an argument that suits you. NOBODY is suggesting switching to steam is going to make people in worse off countries richer.

    However if it will make you feel better, here's a little statistical analysis. There are just under 200,000 internet users in Armenia, while just over 51 million have internet access in the UK. So while the PROPORTION of people downloading pirated games is higher in Armenia, its very POSSIBLE that the actual amount of illegal downloaders is higher in the UK.
    Last edited by afced7; 22-09-2011 at 17:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    I'm not basing any analysis on anything, I'm just pointing out that piracy rate COULD be a little misleading. Please read the post again. Once again you've twisted what I said into an argument that suits you. NOBODY is suggesting switching to steam is going to make people in worse off countries richer.
    That is why it is an illusion that SI will even be close to doubling their profits. Take a look at the how many 3rd world countries are on the list before the first "western" country (which funnily enough is Greece in 60th place) appears. Plus together the ammount of population in those countries, I think India alone outbids our populations all on it's own, and come back and tell me we download more piracy then them - who are you trying to kid?
    Last edited by Loversleaper; 22-09-2011 at 17:29.

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    Nobody, I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument that switching to steam won't have any effect on piracy. I can't comment on SI doubling their profits, but tbh you are not in a position to either, the only people who ARE is SI themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    Forgive me if I find the repetitive replies based on party lines amusing. Pavlov would be proud.
    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    Maybe people should stop making repetitive arguments against steam then.
    Perfect. I believe the latest 'discussion' is about "piracy", which followed on from a 'discussion' about "EULAs". If you consider these to be 'repetitive arguments against Steam', then you have my sympathy. It is beyond strange that the same people feel the need to keep responding, sheeplike, no matter what direction the thread goes in. Mind you, by now it's probably back to Steam.

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    Also very strange that you keep responding too, while adding less than anybody else to the discussion, when this is clearly far below your intellectual level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    Nobody, I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument that switching to steam won't have any effect on piracy. I can't comment on SI doubling their profits, but tbh you are not in a position to either, the only people who ARE is SI themselves.
    Ok, but seriously - does anyone think that we download more than some of those countries - China, India, Pakistan, Bangledesh, Argentina, Brazil, Nigeria, Thailand just to name a few. Have you checked out the ammount of population that these countries have? This is the big problem when you are looking at piracy, my friend, there is a whole otherside of this story that seems to be sweapt under the carpet when people (like in the OP) are talking about stats. The justification that has been passed down just doesn't make sense when you start looking at the facts...

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    Some replies I missed a few pages ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    Ah X24bn6 you are the absolute king of analogies!!

    One quick question tho, you say you trust SI, yes? But you don't trust them when it comes to patches, so how far does this trust go, just to the point of being comfortable to install their game?
    I keep them at arm's length with my trust.

    Patches are totally different since my "contact" with SI remains with respect to patches.

    I somewhat trust their code - I don't necessarily trust anything beyond that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    You may hold the rights to your software - but not everybody adheres to this.
    This has nothing to do with digital rights. Digital rights are bad, full-stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    As I said in the post - you can disable updates.
    I shouldn't need to explicitly disable them. They should be disabled by default.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    So how is that any different? Why not use Steams? It's the same thing?
    Because I think Firefox is miles better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Achievements are a bit of fun. You may not like them - but others might. This is not about you. But what Steam can offer. For someone that is reluctant or never used this Steam, this might appeal to them.
    Fair enough, but I still don't see the point - I don't want to play the game in a specific way to collect "trophies". It's about managing a football club in the way you think is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Yeh of course there are. How is it any different to using the In-game than another 3rd party piece of software? People complain about lack of resources. But now they will have Skype, Hotmail, Gtalk etc. open too? Why not limit the amount of apps you need to do this and use Steams built in method?
    Because I can use this chat platform, that isn't forced into FM like Steam, and use them separately.

    FM + Steam (with chat) = 2 applications
    FM + Ventrillo (say) = 2 applications

    i.e. they are the same, but Ventrillo is not forced by FM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    You may only want to. But it's not about you. It's about what Steam can offer, again it might appeal to someone else? Perhaps with Kids or students sharing accommodation? Having multi-player online gaming would be fun them. And there are free games on offer by Steam. So it's another reason that you may like to use it.
    I thought we were on why I wasn't interested? Otherwise there is a theoretical person who fits all these benefits.

    If I wanted these games, I would get Steam but it would be independent of me obtaining FM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    I said reduce - not stop it all together. And that's Steams explanation not mine. Perhaps take up the technical garbage with them. Fact is it can help reduce fragmentation, which helps with the game running faster.
    It's absolute bollocks. If there were such a smart indexing scheme, then it would have been built into the file system. The fact is that there isn't - you have file system limitations. You cannot beat the file system in this respect!

    All that format suggests is that it has lots of "pointers" to other resources, which supposedly speeds up things. In all honesty, that makes no sense since those files could get fragmented too and the pointers end up being wrong. The whole purpose of a file is that you do not need to worry about fragmentation. On a file system with no fragmentation, such a scheme might be advantageous, but a defragmented system happens once in a blue moon and performance is probably going to be worse once it does get fragmented.

    In addition, on SSDs, fragmentation is not an issue since they have incredibly quick read speeds and don't rely on moving parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Steam even include a Defragmentation of game caches in the latest client. And for a good reason. Because it works.
    Defragmentation of a cache is totally different and yes, it does work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Same as above. Except indexing the location of files does actually speed up the process in locating them. You can find a needle in a haystack if you write down where you put it in the haystack a lot quicker than if you didn't.
    That's not how it works - when a file is fragmented, it is split into many parts and thrown all over the haystack. You end up with a bookmark to one bit of the file but still need to look for the rest of the file - and that bookmark might be wrong if that fragment is moved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    A bad idea for who? Cloud storage is ever popular. You don't need to do this. But it allows access to the files through Steam which you'll be using anyway? What's the point in using another 3rd party online cloud storage? More junk to install on the computer - dropbox, iCloud, sugarsync? Why not buy €50 storage disks? People complaining the game costs €50 anyway, do you think they'd prefer a free backup service or an online free one?
    The cost is recouped by the fact that transfer speeds are clearly going to be slower. Good luck downloading your FM game online.

    We're comparing Steam vs. nothing here. So a third-party cloud application is one application - not one "more" application. Dropbox is one application, as is Steam. So there isn't "more junk" - it's "junk".

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Not everyone has this? Same as above. It's not about you. It's about what Steam can offer.
    I thought you were talking about what benefits it offered me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Yes but then anyone can install your copy of the game on their computer. Exactly what SI are trying to prevent. People illegally obtaining their software via thefts.
    That has nothing to do with me or a customer, though. If someone pirates my copy of FM, I don't really care since it doesn't affect me - I can still play the game as always. It's SI's worry - not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Surely you'd be happier knowing that they may have stolen the game, but they can't play it! And the fact is you log back into Steam and download the game yourself again anyway.
    I don't really care if they can play the game or not - what matters is that I can play the game. Why should I spend my time worrying about pirates, when my enjoyment isn't affected? I'm going to cheer a 4-0 victory just as happily regardless of whether it's pirated or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Again, using a 3rd party website. Why not use Steams? Same thing?
    Because Amazon is a store at heart and does "store" better than Steam. I'm a long-term customer with Amazon and have been for a while - I like what they do.

    On Amazon, I'm not just restricted to software, either. I can buy goods and order them as gifts. I'm not restricted to video games.

    Not really surprising, since Amazon is an online retail store and will always be better than Steam in this respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    You're not. But others maybe. It's what Steam can offer.
    Yes, Steam offers you many ways to be defrauded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Fine for you. But others may not want just FM12.
    Covered above (talking about me?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Jumping off a building is losing your life. Not comparable to downloading and using steam?
    The logic is comparable (it's free, so it's a benefit!).

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    So let me get this straight, you want proof that a piece of software is acceptable as per your requirements but are unwilling to contact the creators of the software to address you specific concerns? You are however willing to repeat your concerns on a forum that is not dedicated to this afore mentioned software & expect people who are not experts in the field to alleviate these issues?
    Yes. I don't find this contradictory.

    If an unfamiliar company (to you) has some negative points (in, say, the media), then you would be right to repeat these concerns to others even if you haven't experienced it. You don't need to have cancer to study its symptoms.

    It is, however, up to this unfamiliar company to alleviate your concerns if they want your custom. I don't have to undergo this leap of faith.

    Otherwise, I could argue that you should go into every single unfamiliar shop in the world, since it would be up to you to produce evidence that they were bad before I agreed with you!

    Steam cannot address my concerns since they are fundamental to any DRM platform/platform that stores financial details/online platform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    Yeh but if they nuked the general area at least they'd get them no?
    I don't get this. You can't sue "an area".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    Ok, but seriously - does anyone think that we download more than some of those countries - China, India, Pakistan, Bangledesh, Argentina, Brazil, Nigeria, Thailand just to name a few. Have you checked out the ammount of population that these countries have? This is the big problem when you are looking at piracy, my friend, there is a whole otherside of this story that seems to be sweapt under the carpet when people (like in the OP) are talking about. The justification that has been passed down just doesn't make sense when you start looking at the facts...
    Like I said, I won't comment on SI doubling their profits, none of us have the necessary facts to judge whether they will or not. Also, technically speaking, population shouldn't be looked at to determine potential piracy, the number of internet users should be, or the percentage of people with internet access. You've got a much more coherent argument there now you've left the EULA stuff alone. Anyway my original point was that piracy rates alone aren't enough to support your point, now you're taking in population figures as well to support your point-much better.
    Last edited by afced7; 22-09-2011 at 17:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    Like I said, I won't comment on SI doubling their profits, none of us have the necessary facts to judge whether they will or not. Also, technically speaking, population shouldn't be looked at to determine potential piracy, the number of internet users should be, or the percentage of people with internet access. You've got a much more coherent argument there now you've left the EULA stuff alone.
    Ok, you win. In Europe we have more internet connections then the top 60 countries on the piracy statistics page (who actually threw up a bunch of numbers that hide the truth behind them). I don't know what to say anymore... :give-up-smiley:

    P.S. EULA is the reason we all have to have internet connections and have Steam present on our computers to play video games... :another-give-up-smiley:
    Last edited by Loversleaper; 22-09-2011 at 17:52.

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    I've not got the time to trawl through this thread so apologies, as I'm sure this question will have already been asked?

    Will I be able to install FM12 on my desktop using STEAM, and then also be able to play the game on a laptop without an internet connection?

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    still can't get steam working correctly on my mac (OSX Lion), shame really was looking forward to FM12

    will be sticking with FM11.

    Steam support = Useless

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    Like I said, I won't comment on SI doubling their profits, none of us have the necessary facts to judge whether they will or not. Also, technically speaking, population shouldn't be looked at to determine potential piracy, the number of internet users should be, or the percentage of people with internet access. You've got a much more coherent argument there now you've left the EULA stuff alone. Anyway my original point was that piracy rates alone aren't enough to support your point, now you're taking in population figures as well to support your point-much better.
    I'm not quite getting this, could you please explain why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hirsty1867 View Post
    I've not got the time to trawl through this thread so apologies, as I'm sure this question will have already been asked?

    Will I be able to install FM12 on my desktop using STEAM, and then also be able to play the game on a laptop without an internet connection?
    As long as you can download steam and FM onto your desktop, the computer playing FM must have at some point been online to activate the game, you cannot activate it on one computer and play it on another unless the other also has internet access.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    I'm not quite getting this, could you please explain why?
    Well, aparently we have more internet connections then countries like China, India, Bangledesh, Pakistan, Thailand, Russia just to name a few (combined naturally)...

    I think this conversation isn't going to do you any favors, pigfacemonkeyman...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hirsty1867 View Post
    I've not got the time to trawl through this thread so apologies, as I'm sure this question will have already been asked?

    Will I be able to install FM12 on my desktop using STEAM, and then also be able to play the game on a laptop without an internet connection?
    You will have to go on the internet initially to install Steam and FM, but can then put Steam into offline mode so won't need to connect the laptop to the internet again, unless you want to patch the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max-riot View Post
    still can't get steam working correctly on my mac (OSX Lion), shame really was looking forward to FM12

    will be sticking with FM11.

    Steam support = Useless
    Whats the issue? There are mac users on here who can get steam to work ok, hopefully one of them could help you out, or has maybe had the same problem they worked through.

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    I'm not quite getting this, could you please explain why?
    Basically because not everybody in a specified country has the ability to get a pirate copy.

    I suppose if you wanted to be even MORE accurate you'd want to look at the number of people with computer access to account for pirate copies which are sold/given away in physical form (i.e. somebody downloads a pirate copy, then makes multiple copies and puts them onto discs) rather than just downloaded.
    Last edited by afced7; 22-09-2011 at 18:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    Well, aparently we have more internet connections then countries like China, India, Bangledesh, Pakistan, Thailand, Russia just to name a few (combined naturally)...

    I think this conversation isn't going to do you any favors, pigfacemonkeyman...
    Now I'm getting bored of the repetition, you've made another straw man argument, my original point was that quoting piracy rates ALONE is not enough to support your point, or it was until you started misrepresenting what I'd said.
    Last edited by afced7; 22-09-2011 at 18:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Well that's true. There's pirate copies of every piece of software that is currently available.

    The idea is to delay piracy.
    Enough said. That's exactly what SI/SEGA are trying to do. It's THEIR final decision. Not yours. If you don't like it then take it somewhere else. If the decision prove costly for them in the end, you win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max-riot View Post
    still can't get steam working correctly on my mac (OSX Lion), shame really was looking forward to FM12

    will be sticking with FM11.

    Steam support = Useless
    I am using iMac OS X Lion. I also am using steam without any problem at all. So that must be your computer that's having a issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    Basically because not everybody in a specified country has the ability to get a pirate copy.

    I suppose if you wanted to be even MORE accurate you'd want to look at the number of people with computer access to account for pirate copies which are sold in physical form rather than just downloaded.
    You 'suppose', 'MORE accurate', I suppose that if you had stopped to think, you might not have needed to post a correction to your original post.

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    Well my original point, which I will state for the LAST time, since you're so bored of people repeating themselves, that piracy rates on their own aren't enough to back up Loversleapers point, still stands.

    I'd just like to point out that piracy RATE could be a little misleading, it is possible that while a country such as Armenia has a higher piracy rate than say the UK, more people overall may illegally download software in the UK.
    Care to refute that instead of just attacking me?
    Last edited by afced7; 22-09-2011 at 18:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    I don't get this. You can't sue "an area".
    It's a sad day when a joke isn't a joke if there isn't a smilie attached

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    It's a sad day when a joke isn't a joke if there isn't a smilie attached
    Yeah, it's like buying a bubble car and......finding it doesn't float.
    Last edited by pigfacemonkeyman; 22-09-2011 at 18:21. Reason: To stop people ending my sentence;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    Well my original point, which I will state for the LAST time, that piracy rates on their own aren't enough to back up Loversleapers point, still stands.



    Care to refute that instead of just attacking me?
    No need to get paranoid, who was attacking you? You stated that I was a 'straw-man' for posting a reliable link and that you were more correct then the statistics that we have more internet connections then the top 60 countries (combined) thus making the perfect argument that we download more than them due to this. I think you don't need to get defensive since you 'most likely' are the correct one in the matter. I was merely defending my viewpoint.

    I think it is best that we don't talk about this anymore so you don't feel attacked. Sorry to have made you feel the way you do.

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    Heinkel used to make a bubble car, it didn't fly either

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    No need to get paranoid, who was attacking you? You stated that I was a 'straw-man' for posting a reliable link and that you were more correct then the statistics that we have more internet connections then the top 60 countries (combined) thus making the perfect argument that we download more than them due to this. I think you don't need to get defensive since you 'most likely' are the correct one in the matter. I was merely defending my viewpoint.

    I think it is best that we don't talk about this anymore so you don't feel attacked. Sorry to have made you feel the way you do.
    Actually I was referring to pigfacemonkeyman when I said attacking. You don't understand what I mean by 'straw man', I'd suggest looking it up, especially considering you've just done exactly the same thing again, it will help your argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    Basically because not everybody in a specified country has the ability to get a pirate copy.

    I suppose if you wanted to be even MORE accurate you'd want to look at the number of people with computer access to account for pirate copies which are sold/given away in physical form (i.e. somebody downloads a pirate copy, then makes multiple copies and puts them onto discs) rather than just downloaded.
    I don't know about every country on that list, but I know of one company that had a lot of problems controlling their counterparts in China, where they could get pirated software straight off the shelves of any computer shop, complete with packaging, manuals and certificate of authenticity (no idea whether that applies to games software, but it's a reasonable assumption). As far as I am aware (keeping in mind this was 4 years ago) internet connections don't really come into it - just good old fashioned CDs.

    I've also sat through an interminably dull 113 slide presentation at Microsoft about counterfeiting (three times - what did I do to deserve that?) that talked about the scale of organised crime in China. Given the ease of availability to the 'man on the street', I'd say population would have to come into it.

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    @afced7

    Looking it up might not be accurate compared to what you meant, I think what you meant was that I was clutching at straws or something. Let's get back on track as we are doing no favors for the point of the whole thread. There are good arguments being thrown up and I simply don't want to have a mud-throwing contest with you. If you feel attacked then for what it's worth, take my apology (although you have stated it wasn't directed at me) and let's please let the matter lie.

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by playmaker View Post
    I don't know about every country on that list, but I know of one company that had a lot of problems controlling their counterparts in China, where they could get pirated software straight off the shelves of any computer shop, complete with packaging, manuals and certificate of authenticity (no idea whether that applies to games software, but it's a reasonable assumption). As far as I am aware (keeping in mind this was 4 years ago) internet connections don't really come into it - just good old fashioned CDs.

    I've also sat through an interminably dull 113 slide presentation at Microsoft about counterfeiting (three times - what did I do to deserve that?) that talked about the scale of organised crime in China. Given the ease of availability to the 'man on the street', I'd say population would have to come into it.
    It comes into it, although I've since amended my point to include 'computer users' although maybe people without computer access buy pirate copies too? I'm not sure

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    @afced7

    Looking it up might not be accurate compared to what you meant, I think what you meant was that I was clutching at straws or something. Let's get back on track as we are doing no favors for the point of the whole thread. There are good arguments being thrown up and I simply don't want to have a mud-throwing contest with you. If you feel attacked then for what it's worth, take my apology (although you have stated it wasn't directed at me) and let's please let the matter lie.

    Thanks
    No I know perfectly well what it means, I wasn't insinuating you were clutching at straws, but you were presenting my argument inaccurately so as to more easily dismiss it. But yeah I'm done, there's no point arguing with somebody who doesn't understand the logical fallacies in their own argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    No I know perfectly well what it means, I wasn't insinuating you were clutching at straws, but you were presenting my argument inaccurately so as to more easily dismiss it. But yeah I'm done, there's no point arguing with somebody who doesn't understand the logical fallacies in their own argument.
    I didn't present your argument inaccurately, you stated that we had more internet connections than the countries on the piracy statistic list. The reason for not continuing the discussion is simply due to the post that playmaker just wrote in response to you. He just made a very interresting post and something I was hoping came up at one point because he is highlighting one of the main cores of the problems with piracy. Please read his post because it is starting to shed light on what we are dealing with on the topic of piracy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    I didn't present your argument inaccurately, you stated that we had more internet connections than the countries on the piracy statistic list. The reason for not continuing the discussion is simply due to the post that playmaker just wrote in response to you. He just made a very interresting post and something I was hoping came up at one point because he is highlighting one of the main cores of the problems with piracy. Please read his post because it is starting to shed light on what we are dealing with on the topic of piracy...
    I'd just like to point out that piracy RATE could be a little misleading, it is possible that while a country such as Armenia has a higher piracy rate than say the UK, more people overall may illegally download software in the UK.
    Nowhere there do I suggest that we have more internet connections, just that piracy rate CAN be misleading on its own. If you disagree, please quote my post where I stated that the west has more internet connections that other countries.
    Last edited by afced7; 22-09-2011 at 18:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by playmaker View Post
    I don't know about every country on that list, but I know of one company that had a lot of problems controlling their counterparts in China, where they could get pirated software straight off the shelves of any computer shop, complete with packaging, manuals and certificate of authenticity (no idea whether that applies to games software, but it's a reasonable assumption). As far as I am aware (keeping in mind this was 4 years ago) internet connections don't really come into it - just good old fashioned CDs.

    I've also sat through an interminably dull 113 slide presentation at Microsoft about counterfeiting (three times - what did I do to deserve that?) that talked about the scale of organised crime in China. Given the ease of availability to the 'man on the street', I'd say population would have to come into it.
    I don't have the exact statistics but China definatly is one of the big contributers to piracy, they export a lot of these products to most of south-east asia. They do have fierce competition from neighboring countries that have 'caught on' to the massive underground market. We haven't even got to South America or Africa yet, but when we do I think that Europe won't have squat compared to the bigger picture. Now, if Steam got all these places to change their minds and purchase the game then I will be surprised (to say the least) - maybe even shocked...
    Last edited by Loversleaper; 22-09-2011 at 19:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    Nowhere there do I suggest that we have more internet connections, just that piracy rate CAN be misleading on its own. If you disagree, please quote my post where I stated that the west has more internet connections that other countries.
    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    Like I said, I won't comment on SI doubling their profits, none of us have the necessary facts to judge whether they will or not. Also, technically speaking, population shouldn't be looked at to determine potential piracy, the number of internet users should be, or the percentage of people with internet access. You've got a much more coherent argument there now you've left the EULA stuff alone. Anyway my original point was that piracy rates alone aren't enough to support your point, now you're taking in population figures as well to support your point-much better.
    Maybe I missed the point, it just sounded like you suggested that we have more internet access. If I was mistaken then I am sorry, now please understand if I am not going to respond to you as clearly you have the need to confront me. I have to go to dinner so it all works out nicely... ;)

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    Not at all, congratulations for finally understanding after 2 1/2 hours, and hey, you learned what a straw man argument looks like, maybe you'll be better prepared for any future debates. Enjoy your dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    basically the truth about Steam
    I'm so glad this fine young man posts all this so I don't have to. I agree with absolutely everything he posts on the subject.

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    That's one way to cure my 18 year addiction. Shame they couldn't have done this when I was at Uni ;).

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Some replies I missed a few pages ago:
    .. bunch of stuff I agree with ..
    I don't know how many folks like me there are out there. But the more DRM that appears, the less money I spend. Music, film, games. They are fun, entertaining activities that I partake in in my spare time. The more arduous and restrictive this is made, the more I feel bullied for being a law abiding upstanding member of the community, the less fun it is. I've been to more concerts than I have bought albums on iTunes (none). I've been to more football matches than I have purchased games on steam (none). And I've been to more plays than I have been to a main stream cinema (less relevant, but included for completeness).

    It's not fun any more. I don't want to play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TCBarrett View Post
    I don't know how many folks like me there are out there. But the more DRM that appears, the less money I spend. Music, film, games. They are fun, entertaining activities that I partake in in my spare time. The more arduous and restrictive this is made, the more I feel bullied for being a law abiding upstanding member of the community, the less fun it is. I've been to more concerts than I have bought albums on iTunes (none). I've been to more football matches than I have purchased games on steam (none). And I've been to more plays than I have been to a main stream cinema (less relevant, but included for completeness).

    It's not fun any more. I don't want to play.
    I feel exactly the same. I don't want to sign agreements with external companies or commit to external software to play a single videogame. I want to buy that videogame and play it when and where I want to. That is a vital part of the entertainment to me. If they take away this part, I can't see myself playing FM any more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nessi View Post
    I feel exactly the same. I don't want to sign agreements with external companies or commit to external software to play a single videogame. I want to buy that videogame and play it when and where I want to. That is a vital part of the entertainment to me. If they take away this part, I can't see myself playing FM any more.
    Yes, but you must understand that, like everything else, the software industry it's not the same as it was 15 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    Yes, but you must understand that, like everything else, the software industry it's not the same as it was 15 years ago.
    I do understand that. I also understand that this deal with steam is probably an excellent business deal for SI. Can't blame them for that.

    Nonetheless this decision will cause a number of fans to stop playing FM and that's a fact. From my (very) limited personal experience (which includes myself and a few friends of mine, plus what I've read in this thread) I can tell you that a fair share of those are long time customers and older fans.

    Like many others, I like to think that the success of SI and CM/FM is strongly related to the goodwill and passion of their diehard fans, and you must give credit to SI for building and developing this bond probably like nobody else. Now I think this move is a serious threat to that bond, and may eventually harm the game more than sales or numbers could ever show.

    just my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nessi View Post
    I do understand that. I also understand that this deal with steam is probably an excellent business deal for SI. Can't blame them for that.

    Nonetheless this decision will cause a number of fans to stop playing FM and that's a fact. From my (very) limited personal experience (which includes myself and a few friends of mine, plus what I've read in this thread) I can tell you that a fair share of those are long time customers and older fans.

    Like many others, I like to think that the success of SI and CM/FM is strongly related to the goodwill and passion of their diehard fans, and you must give credit to SI for building and developing this bond probably like nobody else. Now I think this move is a serious threat to that bond, and may eventually harm the game more than sales or numbers could ever show.

    just my opinion.
    I agree with you when you talk about this great bond that exists between the community and SI. It's a vital part, i believe, of the whole sucess that Football Manager is.

    But i also believe that SI respects, a lot, the bond. Every year we have proof of the great respect that SI have for all users and the dedication that they have in offering a good game.

    This decision, as Miles said, was not taken lightly and perhaps they even think..."this will **** off a couple of users". But now i ask you, where is the BOND when for a simple reason as it is this one (installing a software like steam), people that play this games for ages, just like that stop playing it?

    I not here trying to change anyone mind, yours in particulary, but i really find hard to understand that a football manager fan, a person that play this game, that love this game for 10/15 years, just turn the back to all this because of a reason like this one.

    But hey, perhaps you think..."how do these people accept to continue playing when they are forced to install steam?!?!?!?!"

    As for me, I got used to see SI as a company that has great respect for those who spend money on their products. And as such, could never consider this situation (Steamgate) as a personal attack, or a lack of respect.

    It got me thinking... if it was another company... EA, Konami....perhaps! But its ****ing SI! it's ****ing FM! If they ask... install steam! ok, no problem!

    But like you... just my opinion!

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    I was just listening to some music and it got me thinking about something, I remember somewhere that it was mentioned about how piracy was really effecting the industry (to the point where FM could actually go extinct). The same thing was talked about in the music industry and the movie industry, these industries were eventually hit really hard. There isn't a limit to what you can download for free anywhere on the net - a darn lot easier then downloading computer games with that torrent bits stuff and what not. So, I was wondering if the music has got worse? Statistically = not really, but my personal oppinion it's a yeah (but I still like The Beatles). Is the music industry on the verge of extinction? Highly unlikely.

    What about movies? Have they got any worse or on the verge of extinction? Are they going broke? Charlie Sheen just got 100m Dolores so it can't be that bad. I think somewhere it was mentioned that the gamming industry grew to the biggest of the three, so I think it is safe to assume that FM will survive. Maybe they won't make a zillion - maybe have to work a little harder for their buck, maybe make a game that blows your mind to keep themselves on top of the game. I can't see this as a bad thing, on the contrary, I can't find the power in me to feel sorry for these people. Maybe I am harsh and should show compassion, I just think there are a lot of people who comes way before them...

    I am not anti FM and have never been. I have always done work over in the T&T and most likely will carry on doing so, I have always enjoyed the ME no matter how comical it can behave at times. There are lot's of great things in FM and some things that are not so fun - but overall lots of great fun. I'm a gamers gamer, I'll stick up for a gamer over the corp anyday - that is why I have taken my standpoint. I know that we probably are kidding ourselves to thinking we can make a difference writing on this forum - but it is quite evident that this is an issue. The closed polls weren't exactly favorable for the move - and that is from gamers who have internet connection (and visit the site). I was wondering what the (retrievable) piracy rate compares to the ammount that downloaded from Steam last year is perceived - I hope of course they got it right, but I can't help feeling that we somehow have been bullied into this reality to play the game we all enjoy (and hope to keep enjoying)...
    Last edited by Loversleaper; 23-09-2011 at 00:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Even with iPads you have to transfer ownership to someone else. You can't retain anything.

    Same goes with any Software. If you are selling it you may not keep any part of it. Same goes for FM. You may not keep a copy for yourself all of the ownership of the game must be transferred.
    Is it possible to transfer ownership of a game in Steam? If so this alleviates much of my criticism of the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    I agree with you when you talk about this great bond that exists between the community and SI. It's a vital part, i believe, of the whole sucess that Football Manager is.

    But i also believe that SI respects, a lot, the bond. Every year we have proof of the great respect that SI have for all users and the dedication that they have in offering a good game.

    This decision, as Miles said, was not taken lightly and perhaps they even think..."this will **** off a couple of users". But now i ask you, where is the BOND when for a simple reason as it is this one (installing a software like steam), people that play this games for ages, just like that stop playing it?

    I not here trying to change anyone mind, yours in particulary, but i really find hard to understand that a football manager fan, a person that play this game, that love this game for 10/15 years, just turn the back to all this because of a reason like this one.

    But hey, perhaps you think..."how do these people accept to continue playing when they are forced to install steam?!?!?!?!"

    As for me, I got used to see SI as a company that has great respect for those who spend money on their products. And as such, could never consider this situation (Steamgate) as a personal attack, or a lack of respect.

    It got me thinking... if it was another company... EA, Konami....perhaps! But its ****ing SI! it's ****ing FM! If they ask... install steam! ok, no problem!

    But like you... just my opinion!
    You know, I've always been glad trying to help SI improving their game. I used to spend some of my free time (which I consider more valuable than money ;)) "working" for a friend of mine who was a FM researcher for Italy. Tried to help with some (shocking... ) translation issues too. And I was always happy to do that, as it made me feel more involved in the game I loved. And I can only say good things of people like Neil Brock, or the guys of the technical support.

    There are several reasons I simply can't accept to install Steam to play FM, both practical or based on principles and all have been well explained by users like Mantralux, Pigfacemonkeyman and x42bn6 (and many others actually). I consider you somewhat lucky as these reasons aren't enough for you to stop playing the game. Unfortunately for me and a few other people, they are.

    I don't consider the "Steamgate" a personal attack or a lack of respect towards me. I think it's a cold business decision more than anything else. Which in my eyes makes SI just like EA, Konami or any other company. As I said I can't blame them for that.

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    Just a question...

    If my laptop breaks down, will I be able to deactivate it somewhere else(since my laptop cannot be on) so that I can play on another 1 machine?
    Last edited by vasilli07; 23-09-2011 at 06:56.

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