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Thread: A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

  1. #3201
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    Software EULA has been in existence for a very long time. It's nothing new. Most people just don't seem to know they buy a license to use the software, not the software itself.

    I buy a TV and I still have to buy a license. But why do I? It's my TV surely I can put whatever I like on it?

    Here's one for Kriss I bought a car - why do I need to buy a license to drive it? (and yes you used to be able to just sign a form and buy a license in the yesteryear)

    Even with your Windows or Mac - you've got a EULA. With every font on your computer. Every piece of software. Every image. Every video. Everything is for you to use under a license with terms of use laid out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    This is a big issue, what makes the gamming industry above everyone else in the free market? Of course they are going to try to monopolise their products for their own self interrest just as Microsoft did with their software. I know you enjoy the notion that we do not live in a free democracy, but you are kidding yourself if you think everyone is just like you and will just lie down and except it...
    Don't buy games if you disagree with the terms. You keep acting as though people are continually forcing you to do things against your will. You're right, most of us live in a free democracy, and you are free to choose not to buy something if you disagree with the principles of the manufacturer.
    Last edited by afced7; 22-09-2011 at 10:06.

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    I'm still desperately waiting for a good analogy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    This is a big issue, what makes the gamming industry above everyone else in the free market?
    Yeah damn those whalers and their monopolies

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    I know some of you disagree and will fight for the big corps no matter what. This licensing issue is not exactly as Eugene pointed out in regards to having a license to drive a car, when you are moving several tons around amongst people you have to know what you are doing otherwise you can kill someone. This is not the case with a video game, it will not harm anyone otherwise we would have the whole medical institution breathing down SEGA's neck...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    I know some of you disagree and will fight for the big corps no matter what.
    And we know that you'll probably slag them off no matter what.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    I know some of you disagree and will fight for the big corps no matter what. This licensing issue is not exactly as Eugene pointed out in regards to having a license to drive a car, when you are moving several tons around amongst people you have to know what you are doing otherwise you can kill someone. This is not the case with a video game, it will not harm anyone otherwise we would have the whole medical institution breathing down SEGA's neck...
    Its not about fighting for anyone, its about the law, we dont write the laws, we are only passing on the information you seem to be missing. Ok the TV one is better than the car anaolgy, you buy a TV or anything that can recieve a TV signal then you must have a TV license, even if you watch only one channel that is not related in anyway to the BBC you must have a TV license. Where is your free choice then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    Don't buy games if you disagree with the terms. You keep acting as though people are continually forcing you to do things against your will. You're right, most of us live in a free democracy, and you are free to choose not to buy something if you disagree with the principles of the manufacturer.
    The manufacturers don't decide the rules of a free market, they can try but ultimately they have to abide by the rules passed down by the governments we chose...

    The big corps will always try to have their way, and if someone doesn't challenge them then I guess we don't live in a free democracy anymore, now will we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    I'm still desperately waiting for a good analogy
    Good analogies are like cars - they're full of hot air and sooner or later they break down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    The manufacturers don't decide the rules of a free market, they can try but ultimately they have to abide by the rules passed down by the governments we chose...

    The big corps will always try to have their way, and if someone doesn't challenge them then I guess we don't live in a free democracy anymore, now will we?
    They are abiding by the rules of governments though, otherwise the existence of a EULA would be illegal.

    Maybe you should start standing up for the little man and take all the major game developers to court over your belief that a software licence agreement is illegal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    The manufacturers don't decide the rules of a free market, they can try but ultimately they have to abide by the rules passed down by the governments we chose...

    The big corps will always try to have their way, and if someone doesn't challenge them then I guess we don't live in a free democracy anymore, now will we?
    So the people complaining on SI forums against Steam are actually freedom fighters? lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herter View Post
    So the people complaining on SI forums against Steam are actually freedom fighters? lol
    Don't you at least think it's fair that the gamming population at least has the freedom to have a choice instead of being forced to have internet connections and have Steam present on your computer?

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    I thought it worth copying this from another thread just to demonstrate that Steam does have benefits, in this case to a huge number of people.

    "Already perordered it from STEAM for myself and as a gift to my friend. The only 'fast and painless' option here (Ukraine) - otherwise you have to rely on postal service (couple of weeks delay) or shipment of Russian version to local shops (months of delay).

    Thanks SEGA and SI for making the game available for former USSR in STEAM since last year! No need to go to London for a copy"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    Don't you at least think it's fair that the gamming population at least has the freedom to have a choice instead of being forced to have internet connections and have Steam present on your computer?
    Nobody's forcing anything on anybody. Don't buy FM2012 if you don't have an internet connection. Same as you wouldn't buy FM if you didn't have a computer. There is your choice.

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    In respect to licences...

    You can't sell a suit and still wear it. You can't download a suit. You can't stick a suit in a machine and have an identical copy a few minutes later. You can't broadcast a suit and you can't pick up a guitar and play a suit or walk down the street whistling a suit. You can't damage or delete a suit, then reinstall it and have it in the same condition as it started. Software is a totally different concept.

    The minute you install software, it exists in more than one place - so you have the ability to copy it legally in order to use it. Since you can copy it, the only way to define theft is by limiting where it can be copied. That's all a licence does. If you don't have that limitation, piracy doesn't exist and one copy can be use by anybody that wants it. That means developers make no money, which means no more software - so you've gone from free market to no market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    Don't you at least think it's fair that the gamming population at least has the freedom to have a choice instead of being forced to have internet connections and have Steam present on your computer?
    I understand that people dont think it is an optimal solution.. but I really dont see the problem, unless you of course do not have an internet connection and NO chance of going online for a few minutes.

    It is very simple.. if you dont want steam, no FM.. if you have no internet, no FM.. I am perhaps a bit biased, but I already use steam so for me it is a good idea.

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    So, because of the whole EULA issue we are by law forced to have internet connections and have Steam present on our computers. Are people really serious????

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    Quote Originally Posted by playmaker View Post
    In respect to licences...

    You can't sell a suit and still wear it. You can't download a suit. You can't stick a suit in a machine and have an identical copy a few minutes later. You can't broadcast a suit and you can't pick up a guitar and play a suit or walk down the street whistling a suit. You can't damage or delete a suit, then reinstall it and have it in the same condition as it started. Software is a totally different concept.

    The minute you install software, it exists in more than one place - so you have the ability to copy it legally in order to use it. Since you can copy it, the only way to define theft is by limiting where it can be copied. That's all a licence does. If you don't have that limitation, piracy doesn't exist and one copy can be use by anybody that wants it. That means developers make no money, which means no more software - so you've gone from free market to no market.
    well said.. +1 from me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    So, because of the whole EULA issue we are by law forced to have internet connections and have Steam present on our computers. Are people really serious????
    Are you FORCED into buying FM? - no.. then you dont need steam and internet.. It is allowed to think before posting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    So, because of the whole EULA issue we are by law forced to have internet connections and have Steam present on our computers. Are people really serious????
    The only person saying that is you. If you were forced by law to play FM2012 then yes, by law you would also need internet access and steam. Since you aren't forced to buy or play the game, nobody is forcing you to install steam.
    Last edited by afced7; 22-09-2011 at 10:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    So, because of the whole EULA issue we are by law forced to have internet connections and have Steam present on our computers. Are people really serious????
    EULAs are difficult to enforce. Steam gives a way of enforcing them. Whether it is the best way is highly debatable, but yes, one thing does inevitably lead to another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herter View Post
    Are you FORCED into buying FM? - no.. then you dont need steam and internet.. It is allowed to think before posting
    No, but if the aim is to make money - how does this statement coincide with what you just said. What is the physical difference between buying a download compared to buying a suit - in the eyes of the law?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    So, because of the whole EULA issue we are by law forced to have internet connections and have Steam present on our computers. Are people really serious????
    Your argument is becoming increasingly hard to follow. Who is your problem with? SI, Steam, The Government, EULA laws?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    No, but if the aim is to make money - how does this statement coincide with what you just said. What is the physical difference between buying a download compared to buying a suit - in the eyes of the law?
    Answered in post #3249.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    The only person saying that is you. If you were forced by law to play FM2012 then yes, by law you would also need internet access and steam. Since you aren't forced to buy or play the game, nobody is forcing you to install steam.
    Let me rephrase:

    "So, because of the whole EULA issue we are forced by law to have internet connections and have Steam present if we want to play a video game????"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    No, but if the aim is to make money - how does this statement coincide with what you just said. What is the physical difference between buying a download compared to buying a suit - in the eyes of the law?
    In order to make money, SI have chosen to "force" people to buy their own copy as opposed to 3-4 people buying a single copy and sharing it. This will now become impossible to do. Steam probably wont stop piracy, but it will stop the "sharing" of FM. if not stop then at least drastically reduce it.

    I have no idea what suit you are talking about.. are you drunk?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    Let me rephrase:

    "So, because of the whole EULA issue we are forced by law to have internet connections and have Steam present if we want to play a video game????"
    No not forced by law.. you are forced by technology.. FM will not run without Steam. The police will not arrest you if you dont have a internet connection and have Steam installed.. but you will not be able to run FM

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    Quote Originally Posted by playmaker View Post
    In respect to licences...

    You can't sell a suit and still wear it. You can't download a suit. You can't stick a suit in a machine and have an identical copy a few minutes later. You can't broadcast a suit and you can't pick up a guitar and play a suit or walk down the street whistling a suit. You can't damage or delete a suit, then reinstall it and have it in the same condition as it started. Software is a totally different concept.

    The minute you install software, it exists in more than one place - so you have the ability to copy it legally in order to use it. Since you can copy it, the only way to define theft is by limiting where it can be copied. That's all a licence does. If you don't have that limitation, piracy doesn't exist and one copy can be use by anybody that wants it. That means developers make no money, which means no more software - so you've gone from free market to no market.
    Very very well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    Let me rephrase:

    "So, because of the whole EULA issue we are forced by law to have internet connections and have Steam present if we want to play a video game????"
    No, the law is not forcing you to have an internet connection, the idea is to force people to respect the EULA by making it more difficult to break it. Just because people have been illegally trading in second hand PC games for years does not mean it is ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herter View Post
    In order to make money, SI have chosen to "force" people to buy their own copy as opposed to 3-4 people buying a single copy and sharing it. This will now become impossible to do. Steam probably wont stop piracy, but it will stop the "sharing" of FM. if not stop then at least drastically reduce it.

    I have no idea what suit you are talking about.. are you drunk?
    What was it exactly that happened to the music industry again? Everything they tried was absolutly in vain, you can still download as much as you like - but you are right, my friend, lets all download Steam anyway...

    I talking about the same suit as your pal, playmaker...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    Let me rephrase:

    "So, because of the whole EULA issue we are forced by law to have internet connections and have Steam present if we want to play a video game????"
    Basically yes, Same as if you buy a TV you have to buy a licence if you want to watch television broadcasts on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    No, the law is not forcing you to have an internet connection, the idea is to force people to respect the EULA by making it more difficult to break it. Just because people have been illegally trading in second hand PC games for years does not mean it is ok.
    But what does this have to do with us being forced to have internet connections and Steam? Don't you think it's fair to have alternative solutions? You can't pull the law that this is the only way, for gods sake. Why is there no other options within that EULA law that the gamer can chose from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddymunster View Post
    Basically yes, Same as if you buy a TV you have to buy a licence if you want to watch television broadcasts on it.
    Yeah, but when we buy a TV license - we are not all forced to watch SkyB or the Steam Channel, so what's your point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    What was it exactly that happened to the music industry again? Everything they tried was absolutly in vain, you can still download as much as you like - but you are right, my friend, lets all download Steam anyway...

    I talking about the same suit as your pal, playmaker...
    But still that doesnt mean download MP3's illegally is ok.. One attempt has been to reduce the price of music such that people now buy subscriptions instead of the music itself.. here in Denmark they have f.ex. WiMP where people pay X amount every month and then they have access to millions of songs. This is a good approach IMO and very similar to what On-Live are trying.

    Hopefully Steam will go down this road eventually where we pay an amount every month (or for a certain period only) and then you have access to games. So you never buy the game, you only "lease" it.

    Playmaker isnt my pal.. I have no idea who he is - at best he is my fellow community member.. just like you I just agree more with him than you :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    But what does this have to do with us being forced to have internet connections and Steam? Don't you think it's fair to have alternative solutions? You can't pull the law that this is the only way, for gods sake. Why is there no other options within that EULA law that the gamer can chose from?
    Because SI have decided that it should be like this.. Accept or dont buy FM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    Yeah, but when we buy a TV license - we are not all forced to watch SkyB or the Steam Channel, so what's your point?
    No.. but when you buy a TV you ARE forced to pay for the license..

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    hi fifa manager, bye football manager

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    But what does this have to do with us being forced to have internet connections and Steam? Don't you think it's fair to have alternative solutions? You can't pull the law that this is the only way, for gods sake. Why is there no other options within that EULA law that the gamer can chose from?
    I don't think your making any sense in all this.

    The EULA is part of a law that states you cannot re-sell a PC game after you have installed it on your computer, nothing about having an internet connection. SEGA have decided in order to enforce the EULA, amongst various other things, that you must use Steam to activate and authenticate their product, unfortunately Steam requires an internet connection to activate the first time. There are other options of course, but SEGA have decided this is the way they are going this year. They are following suit of most major game companies who have also tried to enforce the EULA.

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    I agree there should be other options available.

    However, any company is entitled to do as it sees fit to protect it's long term profitability. Steam is how SI/SEGA have deemed the best method to do this. If you don't like it you don't have to buy the game.

    Same as, if you disagree with having to get a TV licence, you can simply not watch TV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herter View Post
    No.. but when you buy a TV you ARE forced to pay for the license..
    My god, what on earth are you talking about? Are you seriously saying that we need a Gamming license to play a video game? Everyone who thinks about playing a video game has to apply/pay for a license so we can chose between all sorts of games? Is that what people are suggesting now?... lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    Yeah, but when we buy a TV license - we are not all forced to watch SkyB or the Steam Channel, so what's your point?
    Think of Steam as the TV license in that situation, you buy a TV and you MUST have a TV license to be lawful, you buy FM you MUST have steam to be lawful, Steam is your license to use the product, only, ullike a TV license, its free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saosinfan4 View Post
    hi fifa manager, bye football manager
    You'll come back crying.. trust me.. - Fifa Manager is so bad it actually physically hurts when you play it

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    Quote Originally Posted by saosinfan4 View Post
    hi fifa manager, bye football manager
    This is like scooping your eyeballs out with a spoon so you don't have to wear glasses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    My god, what on earth are you talking about? Are you seriously saying that we need a Gamming license to play a video game? Everyone who thinks about playing a video game has to apply for a license so we can chose between all sorts of games? Is that what people are suggesting now?... lol
    Do not take this personally, but you are either very young or very old or just not very intelligent?

    Who has said anything about gaming licenses?

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    To compare TV licenses with playing a video game is just way out there. To watch TV I need a license, fair enough, but to suggest that I need a similar license to play a vidoe game is just stupid. Should I ask SEGA for a gamming license, or what?....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    My god, what on earth are you talking about? Are you seriously saying that we need a Gamming license to play a video game? Everyone who thinks about playing a video game has to apply/pay for a license so we can chose between all sorts of games? Is that what people are suggesting now?... lol
    I find it rather ironic and amusing that a few days ago you were trying to admonish me for presenting a false interpretation of people's opinions. Oh how the mighty have fallen. You seem to be becoming more and more hysterical, I suggest that you have a break from the computer for an hour or so, then come back refreshed, ready and raring to go.

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    Yeh you buy a TV license. But them I'm forced (living in Ireland) to buy a separate box to watch Sky Sports, to watch Setanta, to watch many many other channels. The basic channels I get without this is BBC 1 and 2, Channel 4, E4, UTV, RTE1, RTE2, and few other Irish channels.

    Then I have to pay another €50 a MONTH to watch sports? A world gone mad!!!

    Not only that I then have to PAY EXTRA to watch movies on Sky Movies?!?!

    That's awful!!!!

    Yeh but I have to pay for an extra box (3rd party software and hardware) to get those channels.


    Now what do you think would happen if I start broadcasting Sky Movies on my own little system across the airwaves to anybody with a TV?

    I know what would happen. Black helicopters and SUVs would be swooping down on my house in no time.

    Simply because I don't have the right to broadcast their channels.

    And I don't have the right to view their channels unless I get 3rd party software/hardware and pay for it.

    Just as I don't have the right to sell on FM to another party and keep using it myself. So SI have put this restriction in place to hopefully to stop people stealing and "broadcasting" their stuff.

    So yeh I'll get Steam. At least it's free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    To compare TV licenses with playing a video game is just way out there. To watch TV I need a license, fair enough, but to suggest that I need a similar license to play a vidoe game is just stupid. Should I ask SEGA for a gamming license, or what?....
    Are you just being obtuse for the sake of it?

    This is the way PC games have worked since I can remember. You don't own the software, you own a licence to use it. What is annoying you now all of a sudden? The fact that SI are actually trying to enforce it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    To compare TV licenses with playing a video game is just way out there. To watch TV I need a license, fair enough, but to suggest that I need a similar license to play a vidoe game is just stupid. Should I ask SEGA for a gamming license, or what?....
    A TV licence is a requirement to watch television. Steam is a requirement to play Football Manager.

    Why is this a particularly difficult concept for you to understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    To compare TV licenses with playing a video game is just way out there. To watch TV I need a license, fair enough, but to suggest that I need a similar license to play a vidoe game is just stupid. Should I ask SEGA for a gamming license, or what?....
    The concept was compared... not the tv license and video game itself.. - its an analogy!

    Here's another:

    Its like when you buy a car.. you have to have a driver's license before you can use the car.

    See what I did there? - A car and drivers license isnt the same as a video game and steam isnt the same, but the concept is similar and therefore it can be used as an analogy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    To compare TV licenses with playing a video game is just way out there. To watch TV I need a license, fair enough, but to suggest that I need a similar license to play a vidoe game is just stupid. Should I ask SEGA for a gamming license, or what?....
    You do need a license that is the EULA!!!!!!!!!!!! By clicking ok you are agreeing to the terms of the EULA and thus you have a license to play that particular game. You dont need a blanket license to play games, but rather individual ones for each game, is it really that difficult to understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herter View Post
    Do not take this personally, but you are either very young or very old or just not very intelligent?

    Who has said anything about gaming licenses?
    How can I take you calling me 'not very intelligent' personally? It's just fine, call me what you like. It doesn't make me look more degrading then what you have done for yourself. But, I guess Kriss won't mind, you are on the right side of the picket fence so it's all cool...

    P.S. I'm off to lunch...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    How can I take you calling me 'not very intelligent' personally? It's just fine, call me what you like. It doesn't make me look more degrading then what you have done for yourself. But, I guess Kriss won't mind, you are on the right side of the picket fence so it's all cool...
    He actually asked if you were, he didn't call you anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    To compare TV licenses with playing a video game is just way out there. To watch TV I need a license, fair enough, but to suggest that I need a similar license to play a vidoe game is just stupid. Should I ask SEGA for a gamming license, or what?....
    ANY software comes with a license to use it. And terms and conditions. By installing the software you have to tick that you agree to these. If you don't agree then don't install and return the software.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license_agreement

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddymunster View Post
    The fact that SI are actually trying to enforce it?
    I think thats the point that is annoying some people, SI up till this point have failed to try and enforce the EULA, now they can in certain situations and people do not like it because they dont know what they agreed to when clicking yes to install. How many people ever read T's and C's when installing software?

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    You do need a license that is the EULA!!!!!!!!!!!! By clicking ok you are agreeing to the terms of the EULA and thus you have a license to play that particular game. You dont need a blanket license to play games, but rather individual ones for each game, is it really that difficult to understand?
    There are over 40 different EULAs for software developers to choose from. Recently at a conference they suggested making a blanket licnese instead of having over 40 different ones. And every lawyer in the room stood up and started yelling lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    I thought it worth copying this from another thread just to demonstrate that Steam does have benefits, in this case to a huge number of people.

    "Already perordered it from STEAM for myself and as a gift to my friend. The only 'fast and painless' option here (Ukraine) - otherwise you have to rely on postal service (couple of weeks delay) or shipment of Russian version to local shops (months of delay).

    Thanks SEGA and SI for making the game available for former USSR in STEAM since last year! No need to go to London for a copy"
    Very glad for all the fans in Ukraine (that have an internet connection). I think it's great SI/SEGA can offer them this option. I'd never want to force people in Ukraine to buy the disc version via postal service or any other method. In the same way I'd never want to be forced myself to install steam to play FM. Unfortunately that has just happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nessi View Post
    Very glad for all the fans in Ukraine (that have an internet connection). I think it's great SI/SEGA can offer them this option. I'd never want to force people in Ukraine to buy the disc version via postal service or any other method. In the same way I'd never want to be forced myself to install steam to play FM. Unfortunately that has just happened.
    Installing Steam is simple. It's non-obtrusive. And easy to do. Read a bit about Steam, installing and playing games in offline mode.

    You might actually like it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    There are over 40 different EULAs for software developers to choose from. Recently at a conference they suggested making a blanket licnese instead of having over 40 different ones. And every lawyer in the room stood up and started yelling lol.
    I dont think a blanket EULA would work would it? Would the same rules for windows apply to a copy of FM?

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    Quote Originally Posted by saosinfan4 View Post
    hi fifa manager, bye football manager
    I assume you'll need to use EA's Origin software with FIFA Manager 12 this year, but I may be wrong. Good luck with that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    He actually asked if you were, he didn't call you anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Herter View Post
    Do not take this personally, but you are either very young or very old or just not very intelligent?
    So, you call this a question? If I ask you "are you idiotic?" please don't take it personally. It is quite sad that when people don't have their way with what they say - they always resort to this kind of ridiculous behavior...

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    That's exactly it. There's no way a blanket EULA for all software is a good idea. I guess that's why the lawyers went mad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    So, you call this a question? If I ask you "are you idiotic?" please don't take it personally. It is quite sad that when people don't have their way with what they say - they always resort to this kind of ridiculous behavior...
    It was a question.. hence the questionmark..

    Either way the question is still valid as you simply dont understand (or you deliberately choose to twist) what we say.. Should I think you are very intelligent when you seem to not understand the simplest concepts explained in a way such that a child would understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    So, you call this a question? If I ask you "are you idiotic?" please don't take it personally.
    I did not take it personally. Why no, I am not idiotic, my IQ is fairly high and I performed well at school. Yourself?

    I don't even know what you're talking about with the second half of your post, it makes very little sense, so I won't bother with a response.

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    There's questions and then there's derogatory questions. We should leave ambiguous questions, rhetorical or not, that imply a derogatory tone to one side and move on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    So, you call this a question? If I ask you "are you idiotic?" please don't take it personally. It is quite sad that when people don't have their way with what they say - they always resort to this kind of ridiculous behavior...
    Why don't you, very simply, write a post outlining your specific grievance about the method of activation for FM this year?

    Because I've read all your posts on this page so far and they're a little hard to follow.

    I said earlier, Who is your issue with? SI, SEGA, EULA, The Government? I can't figure it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    That's exactly it. There's no way a blanket EULA for all software is a good idea. I guess that's why the lawyers went mad.
    Yeah can you imagine trying to settle on a set of rules that would cover every kind of software!! The thing is tho, to the common person they wouldnt read them anyway so they wouldnt know the difference. As this thread has shown, a lot of people were not aware of the laws, that is something that should definitely be looked at by these companies and the government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herter View Post
    It was a question.. hence the questionmark..

    Either way the question is still valid as you simply dont understand (or you deliberately choose to twist) what we say.. Should I think you are very intelligent when you seem to not understand the simplest concepts explained in a way such that a child would understand?
    So children can see your point that a TV license is the same as being forced to have internet connections and use Steam so you can play a video game by law. Right pal, real show of intelligence there I'll give you that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Bladesman View Post
    I assume you'll need to use EA's Origin software with FIFA Manager 12 this year, but I may be wrong. Good luck with that...
    It most certainly does,

    http://store.origin.com/store/eaemea...00/ccRef.en_IE

    also for loversleaper he is part of the EA EULA, this is standard practise:

    A. Grant. EA grants you a personal, limited, non-exclusive license to install and use the Application for your personal, noncommercial use solely as set forth in this License and any accompanying documentation. Your acquired rights are subject to your compliance with this License. Any commercial use is prohibited. You are expressly prohibited from sublicensing, renting, leasing or otherwise distributing the Application or rights to use the Application. The term of your license shall commence on the date that you start to download, install or otherwise use the Application, and shall end on the earlier of the date that you dispose of the Application; or EA's termination of this License.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    So children can see your point that a TV license is the same as being forced to have internet connections and use Steam so you can play a video game by law. Right pal, real show of intelligence there I'll give you that...
    Please go back and read my post again.. then compare it to what you just wrote here and see if your interpretation of my post is correct.. I'll bet you missed my point completely.. This is what we intellectuals call a "own goal" or "shooting your own foot"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    So children can see your point that a TV license is the same as being forced to have internet connections and use Steam so you can play a video game by law. Right pal, real show of intelligence there I'll give you that...
    I think you should try to answer my question, because then people can give you a straightforward answer instead of calling each other names and going round in circles.

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    infact this is all useful reading to this conversation,

    1. License Grant and Terms of Use.

    A. Grant. EA grants you a personal, limited, non-exclusive license to install and use the Application for your personal, noncommercial use solely as set forth in this License and any accompanying documentation. Your acquired rights are subject to your compliance with this License. Any commercial use is prohibited. You are expressly prohibited from sublicensing, renting, leasing or otherwise distributing the Application or rights to use the Application. The term of your license shall commence on the date that you start to download, install or otherwise use the Application, and shall end on the earlier of the date that you dispose of the Application; or EA's termination of this License.

    B. Copies. You may download this Application from an authorized source. The number of copies that you can download during a consecutive period of days may be limited. You may not make a copy of the Application available on a network where it could be used by multiple users at the same time. You may not make the Application available over a network where it could be downloaded by multiple users.

    C. License Validation. The Application and an internet connection are required to validate the license for certain products distributed by EA. You acknowledge and agree that the Application can automatically validate license rights for some or all EA products without separate notice to you. This means that in order to use the Application and certain EA products, you must leave the Application installed on your computer. You acknowledge and agree that the Application may use information regarding your computer, hardware, media, software and your use of the Application to validate your license rights and to update the Application.

    D. Application Updates. You agree that the Application may automatically download and install updates, upgrades and additional features that EA deems reasonable, beneficial to you and/or reasonably necessary. You acknowledge and agree that any obligation EA may have to support the previous version(s) may be ended upon the availability of the update, upgrade and/or implementation of additional features. This License shall apply to any updates, upgrades and/or additional features that are not distributed with a separate license or other agreement.

    E. Reservation of Rights and Restrictions. The Application is licensed, and not sold, to you for use only under the terms of this License. Except as expressly licensed to you herein, EA reserves all right, title and interest in the Application and all software delivered through the Application (including all characters, storyline, images, photographs, animations, video, music, text), and all associated copyrights, trademarks, and other intellectual property rights therein. The License is limited to the intellectual property rights of EA and its licensors in the Application and does not include any rights to other patents or intellectual property. Except, and only to the extent that may be permitted under applicable law, you may not decompile, disassemble, or reverse engineer the Application by any means whatsoever, or alter,modify, enhance, or create a derivative work of the Application. You may not remove, alter, or obscure any product identification, copyright, or other intellectual property notices in the Application or software delivered through the Application.

    F. Installation and Un-installation. Un-installation of the Application can be accomplished by removing the files entitled “Origin” (“Application Files”) via the “Add/Remove Programs” page in the Control Panel. Certain empty cache folders may also remain on your machine after uninstallation of the Application Files and can be deleted manually.
    #

    i dont think SI's will be massively different

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    As this thread has shown, a lot of people were not aware of the laws, that is something that should definitely be looked at by these companies and the government.
    It could easily be taught in schools. There are more and more computer classes in primary and secondary schools. Teaching law in relation to software installation should be part of the courses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post
    So children can see your point that a TV license is the same as being forced to have internet connections and use Steam so you can play a video game by law. Right pal, real show of intelligence there I'll give you that...
    Regardless of whether you have an internet connection. The EULA still applies. For any software. Not just video games.

    Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law. If children are playing the video game the parents should be aware of the EULA pertaining to the game and adhere to it.

    That's why we're at this point. Because people blatantly and openly defied EULAs and software companies suffered heavily for it.

    Apparently there are more people playing Football Manager that pirate the game than people that actually pay for it!

    That's something to think about.


    So if that was you and someone was ripping off your software - would you not seek a way to put a stop or even delay it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    I love that all these people are saying that they won't tolerate Steam so won't be buying FM, but will instead be buying x, y or z instead, which require Steam, Origin or some more heinous DRM to be installed as well. Welcome to 2012, people, like it or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by playmaker View Post
    In respect to licences...

    You can't sell a suit and still wear it. You can't download a suit. You can't stick a suit in a machine and have an identical copy a few minutes later. You can't broadcast a suit and you can't pick up a guitar and play a suit or walk down the street whistling a suit. You can't damage or delete a suit, then reinstall it and have it in the same condition as it started. Software is a totally different concept.

    The minute you install software, it exists in more than one place - so you have the ability to copy it legally in order to use it. Since you can copy it, the only way to define theft is by limiting where it can be copied. That's all a licence does. If you don't have that limitation, piracy doesn't exist and one copy can be use by anybody that wants it. That means developers make no money, which means no more software - so you've gone from free market to no market.
    But you can patch a suit. 3 times in the first 6 months of ownership (if it is particularly badly made) :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by spankie View Post
    Actually it wasn't a perfectly legal transaction. When you brought the game you paid for the license for you and you alone to play it. When you gave it to a friend or resold it that broke the EULA agreement even if you uninstalled it and never played it again.

    The market for pre-owned games is actually a grey area legally and I wouldn't be surprised if at some point regulation comes that that restricts it is some way. Possibly where the owner of the IP of the game (in this case SI/Sega) gets paid a small percentage of any resold game by those companies like Game or HMV who do pre-owned games.

    The other possibility is that games companies sell licenses for the game for pre-owned copies of the game and even multi-user licenses for those who buy one copy of the disk and install it on multiple computers with the intent of more then one person playing it at a time. I very much doubt that something like that is currently workable with Steam.
    What is your basis for this statement? Game shops sell used console games all the time, and at the very least 10 years ago I recall used PC games being sold at GameStop/EB type stores. I highly doubt major retailers like that would have been engaging in illegal business right out in the open.

    I actually just uninstalled FM2011 and gave it to a friend of mine this weekend. You're saying this was illegal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    But you can patch a suit. 3 times in the first 6 months of ownership (if it is particularly badly made) :-)
    You can also wash and burn a suit.. quite hard to do with software

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Bladesman View Post
    I love that all these people are saying that they won't tolerate Steam so won't be buying FM, but will instead be buying x, y or z instead, which require Steam, Origin or some more heinous DRM to be installed as well. Welcome to 2012, people, like it or not.
    Certainly not speaking for all the nay-sayers, but i think the timing of the announcement is one significant factor of this reaction.
    It came veeeery, very late. IMO i believe that it should've been the very first announcement.
    Certainly caused my initial reaction. I don't agree with the decision, but that's just the way it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jujigatame View Post
    What is your basis for this statement? Game shops sell used console games all the time, and at the very least 10 years ago I recall used PC games being sold at GameStop/EB type stores. I highly doubt major retailers like that would have been engaging in illegal business right out in the open.

    I actually just uninstalled FM2011 and gave it to a friend of mine this weekend. You're saying this was illegal?
    Not if you have uninstalled the game first

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Installing Steam is simple. It's non-obtrusive. And easy to do. Read a bit about Steam, installing and playing games in offline mode.

    You might actually like it?
    It is actually simple. I find it obtrusive as I need to have it in the background (be it on-line or off-line, the latter being less stable) EVERY time I'll want to play FM. Yes it is easy to do. I've read more than a bit about steam, including their subscriber agreement and privacy policy and didn't like it one bit. If you like steam and find it useful, great for you. I wouldn't want you to stop using it and do what I do. I just want another option like I always had.

    I would accept an actual ONE TIME activation with steam or any other software, but I can't accept being forced to keep that external software forever on my pc and using it to run the game EVERY time. Plus I can't accept to risk (even it's a slight risk) my privacy with a 3rd party software I don't want, I don't need and I don't trust.

    nothing new really, still enough to prevent me from buying FM12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spankie View Post
    Actually it wasn't a perfectly legal transaction. When you brought the game you paid for the license for you and you alone to play it. When you gave it to a friend or resold it that broke the EULA agreement even if you uninstalled it and never played it again.

    The market for pre-owned games is actually a grey area legally and I wouldn't be surprised if at some point regulation comes that that restricts it is some way. Possibly where the owner of the IP of the game (in this case SI/Sega) gets paid a small percentage of any resold game by those companies like Game or HMV who do pre-owned games.

    The other possibility is that games companies sell licenses for the game for pre-owned copies of the game and even multi-user licenses for those who buy one copy of the disk and install it on multiple computers with the intent of more then one person playing it at a time. I very much doubt that something like that is currently workable with Steam.
    I think it more likely there will be regulation restricting what can be put in an EULA. If EULA's were enforceable I think we'd have seen a lot more action from companies who use them, instead they are taking the DRM route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    The difference is you agree to this when you install the game, when you click yes to the terms and conditions, next time i would suggest reading them if your unsure where you stand. I'm not bothered about the rest of your post i was merely pointing out the law because you did not seem to know it, the rest of that post is for another thread and another time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Herter View Post
    1010101010
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Bladesman View Post
    See the above.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Software EULA has been in existence for a very long time. It's nothing new. Most people just don't seem to know they buy a license to use the software, not the software itself.

    I buy a TV and I still have to buy a license. But why do I? It's my TV surely I can put whatever I like on it?

    Here's one for Kriss I bought a car - why do I need to buy a license to drive it? (and yes you used to be able to just sign a form and buy a license in the yesteryear)

    Even with your Windows or Mac - you've got a EULA. With every font on your computer. Every piece of software. Every image. Every video. Everything is for you to use under a license with terms of use laid out.
    Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post
    Don't buy games if you disagree with the terms. You keep acting as though people are continually forcing you to do things against your will. You're right, most of us live in a free democracy, and you are free to choose not to buy something if you disagree with the principles of the manufacturer.
    EULA's are a set of terms and conditions laid down by individual companies, they are not the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    EULA's are a set of terms and conditions laid down by individual companies, they are not the law.
    I expect they're covered by contract law though. So a civil issue not criminal if you break the EULA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    EULA's are a set of terms and conditions laid down by individual companies, they are not the law.
    I never said they were, no idea why you quoted me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    EULA's are a set of terms and conditions laid down by individual companies, they are not the law.
    It's a contract though. Don't recall anyone saying they were laws?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    I thought it worth copying this from another thread just to demonstrate that Steam does have benefits, in this case to a huge number of people.

    "Already perordered it from STEAM for myself and as a gift to my friend. The only 'fast and painless' option here (Ukraine) - otherwise you have to rely on postal service (couple of weeks delay) or shipment of Russian version to local shops (months of delay).

    Thanks SEGA and SI for making the game available for former USSR in STEAM since last year! No need to go to London for a copy"
    Something else that would benefit a huge number of people is SEGA sorting out it's distribution network and making sure the game is available on disk, at the same time, in all countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    It's a contract though. Don't recall anyone saying they were laws?
    Hardly a contract. Did you sign it? Did you get it notarized? Dont think so.

    Its just something lawyers wrote to keep them busy. Half of the stuff in there is not legal anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    Something else that would benefit a huge number of people is SEGA sorting out it's distribution network and making sure the game is available on disk, at the same time, in all countries.
    There are all sorts of things out of their control which contribute to that being a shambles, also retailers who have it early release it early regardless of any agreement.
    I dont envisage that ever improving much tbh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakobx View Post
    Hardly a contract. Did you sign it? Did you get it notarized? Dont think so.

    Its just something lawyers wrote to keep them busy. Half of the stuff in there is not legal anyway.
    You do sign it. You tick the box that says "I agree to these Terms and Conditions" you can't install it until you do tick it.

    Whether it's legal or not is up to the courts to decide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakobx View Post
    Hardly a contract. Did you sign it? Did you get it notarized? Dont think so.

    Its just something lawyers wrote to keep them busy. Half of the stuff in there is not legal anyway.
    You sign it digitally by clicking ok, out of interest which parts are not legal, i would highly doubt any company could put anything in there that wasnt legal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    You sign it digitally by clicking ok, out of interest which parts are not legal, i would highly doubt any company could put anything in there that wasnt legal.
    Well there could be ambiguous terms. Like using the words "maybe". If that's in a EULA a lawyer will tear that apart in a second.

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    I don't think he meant 'not legal' as in illegal, but 'not legal' as in not legally binding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakobx View Post
    Hardly a contract. Did you sign it? Did you get it notarized? Dont think so.

    Its just something lawyers wrote to keep them busy. Half of the stuff in there is not legal anyway.
    It might not be the case in Slovenia, but in English law an actual physical signature isn't necessarily required to agree to a contract.

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    Unless any of us are lawyers we can't really comment on the legally binding things in EULAs. It would be serious misinformation for anyone reading here. And none of us, unless you are a lawyer, would be equipped to dispute the terms in a EULA.

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    This thread is going off the rails a bit, consider this a redirect

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    I am at Post #3300 on page 33. the last 68 posts have been from the same 4 or 5 people repeating the same thing over and over. They have done it throughout the thread and I suspect they will continue for as long as the thread is open, adding nothing.

    So, I would ask the moderators, is it what they express, or how often they express that "what", that would result in this?:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    He's expressing it repetetively over page after page, with nothing new for several reams (figuratively) and as a Mod I've decided he's getting too much air space, okay?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    I am at Post #3300 on page 33. the last 68 posts have been from the same 4 or 5 people repeating the same thing over and over. They have done it throughout the thread and I suspect they will continue for as long as the thread is open, adding nothing.

    So, I would ask the moderators, is it what they express, or how often they express that "what", that would result in this?:
    Difficult to quantify tbh been using rule of thumb and general perception of irritant factor up to now, although as this thread will (hopefully) be superceded by a proper Steam FAQ thread soon we've let people ramble on a bit more recently.

    I'd hope that your pointing this out might persuade people to try for a bit of originality though

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    Yes, i'm skimming the thread and glazing over it. Can someone perhaps offer a brief objective summary of the main substantive arguments and facts so far?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    There are all sorts of things out of their control which contribute to that being a shambles, also retailers who have it early release it early regardless of any agreement.
    I dont envisage that ever improving much tbh.
    Neither do I, why would they when they have the digital download route. But eggs and basket are two words that spring to mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    EULA's are a set of terms and conditions laid down by individual companies, they are not the law.
    This is why the whole conversation about the law doesn't make sense at all. If the government came out and said "you need a license (like the TV license issue) to play a video-game" then for sure I would get one. If the government went out and said "by law you need internet connection and Steam to play video games" then I probably would - but this is NOT the case. The whole argument regarding laws doesn't hold water for the pro-movement.

    I know that the last stand argument is going to be "if you don't like the new set-up then just don't buy it". I am sure SI is thrilled to have that projection of their company policy thrown out to the public in this manner because it is going to do wonders for their sales...

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