A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[Loversleaper]

God is this still going round in the same circles?

SEGA/SI - "this is about piracy"
Irate poster - "no its about profit"
defensive poster - "no its about piracy"
Irate poster 2 - "shut up you dont know what your talking about, before long SI will be watching us through our monitors and will know the colour of our wallpaper, not only that, but they will be sharing this info with every home decorating firm in the UK"

Not quite the theme but close, i honestly thought i was one of the worst for constantly repeating myself over and over but you guys are taking it to the extreme now.

We all now know Paradox are the only games company in the world with any morals and probably going to be the only games company left in the next 5 years because they dont protect their games, everyone else will drive their customers away. We all know that steam ruins your computer whilst stealing your personal information with the view to broadcasting it around the world in various podcasts, But can we all accept this is happening? Maybe try and help people unsure about steam??

My god, milner, what a load of horse pucky.

If you are going to address the issues then at least try to highlight the genuine concerns. We all know that if SEGA/SI tells you that you need to swallow a 13" mumbasa that you will, we are not disputing that - but you can't expect that everyone feels the same way...

It's funny that you project this image and at the same time tell people who have concerns to just lie down and except this (another way of saying shut up). Totally unfair judgment on your part...

[Eugene Tyson]

There endeth the lesson. I think you just summed it all up.

"Yeh a small percentage of people will not be able to play it. But a much larger percentage than before will be able to play it." - and you accuse others of making up stuff.

Anyway. I give up. It is now only fanbois defending the decision (because only they could at this point) so a logical argument is finished.

See what happens in the future but FM11 will do me for the next few years by the look of it
Happy gaming all

Stop calling me a fanboi? That is arrogant and rude.


And I'm not making anything up. If you read the original post it's all there. Or at least a different post by Miles, that millnerpoint posted.


The game will be available to much larger percentage than before through Steam. I think most of their sales came through Steam last year anyway.

And that's just fact.


You won't get an alternative this year. And nothing will change that.

Unless Steam activation is a complete and utter failure.

[roykela]

"Yeh a small percentage of people will not be able to play it. But a much larger percentage than before will be able to play it."

I can't find the logic in this statement.
How can a larger percentage than before be able to play it by taking away options?
Would be the largest percentage if the "regular" option still had been available, in addition to Steam....no?

[milnerpoint]

Milner, everyone passes data, your bank, your insurance company, sites you visit, its the world we live in. Even Sony had customers data nicked. No one is driving customers away, most moaning on here will buy and install, customers will be still be here as long as the product is made to a high standard.

God in 5 weeks time the same people will be moaning about SI releasing a faulty product, to many bugs, demanding patches, like there human rights have been abused!

Oh i know its madness, the funny thing is you would think this is the first kind of anti steam thread ever online, many other games have already gone through this and prospered, FM will be no different. The press dont care about threads like this they have seen them all before. SI will not lose out on this, after the hysteria dies down and these people see everyone else enjoying the game they will change their minds, the people making add ons will continue because they love doing it and the community will contiune to thrive, then come patch day the madness will start all over again and Miles will be the worlds worst person again. Its a funny world in these SI forums.

[aaron70]

Stop calling me a fanboi? That is arrogant and rude.

Sorry, I thought you had said so yourself: "That's cos I feel a lot of them are prima donnas that seem to think that SI or Sega owe them." - Didn't mean it to be rude.

[tom_numbers]

Ummm...did you read any posts. The argument is way beyond that. It has been acknowledged by everybody that Steam does not stop piracy! Steam is therefore being used for another reason. It seems that profit would be the logical choice. So it appears profit is kicking some consumers in the teeth.

I thought this had been covered about 12 pages ago?

The aim isn't to stop piracy, but rather to delay it. Miles' posts way back when said that as soon as pirated copies become available online, they see pre-orders dropping off. If it can be delayed by a month, a week, even just a couple of days, the hope is that those people who want to play the game instantly but would usually download it are prevented from doing so, thereby forcing them to purchase the game.

I fully sympathise with those people with unreliable internet connections, or the Mac users who appear to have issues with Steam using massive resources, but it would appear that whatever figures Sega have suggest that more sales can be raised by doing this than would be lost to those customers who they expect to leave the series. I would imagine no alternative is being offered because if you only have one method of encryption, you can delay the time it takes to be hacked the longest. You couldn't exactly tell the customers that you'll let them activate their product by alternative means once the game has been pirated.

And please, excuse my ignorance, but how does switching to Steam ensure a greater profit? FM12 is available from the same retailers as FM11 at the same prices.

[Barside]

Far too many they're, there & their errors recently, I think people need to start calming down.

[milnerpoint]

It's funny that you project this image and at the same time tell people who have concerns to just lie down and except this (another way of saying shut up). Totally unfair judgment on your part...

I'm not telling anyone to shut up or that they have to agree with me, but come on 30 pages later and your still making the same points without getting anywhere. Your concerns are known, SI are not daft and they can read, truthfully they will have known everything said in this thread long before anyone posting through of it. All that is happening now is people are becoming abusive nothing more can be gained in this thread except to try and help people with steam and give them proper info on the software.

[x42bn6]

Oh i know its madness, the funny thing is you would think this is the first kind of anti steam thread ever online, many other games have already gone through this and prospered, FM will be no different. The press dont care about threads like this they have seen them all before. SI will not lose out on this, after the hysteria dies down and these people see everyone else enjoying the game they will change their minds, the people making add ons will continue because they love doing it and the community will contiune to thrive, then come patch day the madness will start all over again and Miles will be the worlds worst person again. Its a funny world in these SI forums.

The loss of goodwill should never be underestimated in the long-run. Plus it doesn't matter what the press say - FM is generally not in the press anyway.

Besides, two wrongs don't make a right - why does SI insist on doing things that put people into an outrage? Should it not consider the possibility that not upsetting customers is actually a good thing for once?

[Major Raver]

Just out of interest, if some get the game a day or so early, will they be stopped from playing it to the release date by a steam activation?

[x42bn6]

I'm not telling anyone to shut up or that they have to agree with me, but come on 30 pages later and your still making the same points without getting anywhere. Your concerns are known, SI are not daft and they can read, truthfully they will have known everything said in this thread long before anyone posting through of it. All that is happening now is people are becoming abusive nothing more can be gained in this thread except to try and help people with steam and give them proper info on the software.

Oh, no, we can continue to complain about Steam. Just as we have the right to do so. There is no need to push your viewpoint upon others. You think the only good thing that can be done is to inform others on Steam - others quite frankly don't care. It doesn't make you right, nor the others. The whole point of a forum is to get multiple points of view and debate.

Nothing more.

[Eugene Tyson]

"Yeh a small percentage of people will not be able to play it. But a much larger percentage than before will be able to play it."

I can't find the logic in this statement.
How can a larger percentage than before be able to play it by taking away options?
Would be the largest percentage if the "regular" option still had been available, in addition to Steam....no?

An opinion, not a statement. And perhaps poorly worded.

The idea of Steam is to delay piracy.

Last year or the year before the game was released via pirate parties before the game shipped. This resulted in pre-orders (lots of them) being cancelled.

This year they have said that more people have pre-ordered the game (a much larger percentage) since they announced it would be available through Steam authentication.

How many people do you think use Steam for other games? And they would risk having their account suspended or banned if a hacked game was found through Steam... I'd imagine.


The use of Steam will delay the pirates from hacking the game. Maybe by an hour. Maybe by a day. Maybe 3 days?

Fact is more people have pre-ordered this year. And coming up to 21st October they don't expect pre-orders to be cancelled as has happened in the past.

[Loversleaper]

I'm not telling anyone to shut up or that they have to agree with me, but come on 30 pages later and your still making the same points without getting anywhere. Your concerns are known, SI are not daft and they can read, truthfully they will have known everything said in this thread long before anyone posting through of it. All that is happening now is people are becoming abusive nothing more can be gained in this thread except to try and help people with steam and give them proper info on the software.

And what points have I been raving about for over 30 pages? Again you are projecting things that just don't do justice, I haven't been here for 30 pages...

[Barside]

One side of this argument needs to cease posting for this thread to stop going round in circles, as it's harder to quiet a descenting voice may I suggest that the 'what's your problem with Steam' people take the moral high ground & step away for a moment.

Eventually those who are against the idea will drift away when they realise that no-one is taking the bait.

[milnerpoint]

Oh, no, we can continue to complain about Steam. Just as we have the right to do so. There is no need to push your viewpoint upon others. You think the only good thing that can be done is to inform others on Steam - others quite frankly don't care. It doesn't make you right, nor the others. The whole point of a forum is to get multiple points of view and debate.

Nothing more.

Fill your boots then i guess, i'm sure another 30 pages of this will make a huge difference to the outcome for FM12.

[Kriss]

Sorry Kriss. Read it out of context . Guess I am getting the impression from people that we are acting like crackpots because of asking for an alternative method

You're not it seems the obvious solution, there are very good reasons why they decided to go Steam only (at least this time round) I know most of those reasons but can't divulge them all.

The security and secrecy that surrounds the release of any new game is akin to that which existed in the cold war, so they say as little as possible and people are reluctant to talk at all in case they give something away (I'm not making that up)

You say it's about money, it is and it should be, but please note they're trying to increase profit by increasing sales and not by putting the price up (when did the price of FM last go up in real terms?)

They are not claiming that this will prevent piracy, but if you have any in depth knowledge of how piracy affects sales you'll start to realise why this approach has been effective for other titles and therefore is likely to be for FM.

As always it's on trial and if it's not effective, or better solutions appear it won't last, my feeling is that it will and that people need to come to terms with that.

As to the evils of Steam, it'll be problematic for a tiny minority and it's incumbent on Steam kicked along by Sega to resolve any issues, they have a good track record for doing so in spite allegations to the contrary.

The objections to installing it are actually irrational given what it does because you already have more intrusive things compulsarily on your PC and because if your PC is good enough to run FM it's good enough to run it via Steam with no noticeable performance issues.
Mac users get more issues than PC users, well they do with almost any software, that's a fact because the support and investment devoted to Mac is proportional to it's market share in almost all cases.

The natural resistance to being told you must have something on your PC to play FM is totally understandable, it's a basic trait of human nature to resist doing anything you're ordered to.
I mentioned seat belts but there are many other examples of people hating to be told to do something even though they actually know it's good for them, most people who actually love FM will get over that and (like me) install Steam and forget they ever had concerns over it.
The few who cut off their noses to spite their faces will soon not have any new game to play, bar niche ones because this is the way it's going to be, that's their choice.

I feel desperately sorry for those who actually will lose the ability to play FM but their numbers are infinitesimally small and as has been said the same situation is created by other things like increased minimum spec so it's not unique to this.

[roykela]

The idea of Steam is to delay piracy.

Last year or the year before the game was released via pirate parties before the game shipped. This resulted in pre-orders (lots of them) being cancelled.

This year they have said that more people have pre-ordered the game (a much larger percentage) since they announced it would be available through Steam authentication.

How many people do you think use Steam for other games? And they would risk having their account suspended or banned if a hacked game was found through Steam... I'd imagine.


The use of Steam will delay the pirates from hacking the game. Maybe by an hour. Maybe by a day. Maybe 3 days?

Fact is more people have pre-ordered this year. And coming up to 21st October they don't expect pre-orders to be cancelled as has happened in the past.

Delay piracy, is alright with me.
Released pirated before it was shipped, i get that too.
Larger percentage have pre-ordered the game....no problem understanding that.
How many people? No idea what so ever.

But none of that was the answer to the question(s)

The quote said "....be able to play it".

I was just wondering what the logic in, what was in the quotation marks, was.
Just didn't get it. That's all

[x42bn6]

One side of this argument needs to cease posting for this thread to stop going round in circles,

The reason it goes round in circles is that the dissenters can't be convinced.

The burden of proof is always on those positing the change. The question "why is this good for me?" needs to be answered, rather than "why do you think it is bad?"

All that needs to be answered is: I don't use/like Steam. Why is it beneficial for me to be forced into using Steam?

as it's harder to quiet a descenting voice may I suggest that the 'what's your problem with Steam' people take the moral high ground & step away for a moment.

There's no "moral high ground" in debates. You either are in or out.

Eventually those who are against the idea will drift away when they realise that no-one is taking the bait.

Why are you accusing dissenters of trolling? We're not trolling - we're raising our concerns. Just as we are entitled to do so, just as you are entitled to argue against those concerns.

Like it or not, there are two sides to an argument and you don't win by calling the other side a "bunch of trolls".

[eddymunster]

I did not mean to offend you at all, sorry if it came across that way, my internet mannerisms are not always the best!
Heath is right tho, ill leave it here, i have said MORE than my fair share on this topic. Happy steaming everyone!!

Followed by.....

who made you god around here??

if i compare you banning him to buying a car will you forgive me??

i wonder who it was, Laz maybe?? LOL

Can i ask one quick thing, i said i would leave this but, if you are bothered why dont you sign up for a free hotmail account, put in false info, and buy the game on disk, where is the danger then? Steam will know nothing about you or have access to any of your privy info.

nah you will have to have the computer.....

yes but its not going through you computer looking for passwords and log in details, it will gather info on your gaming habbits, system info and prob not a lot else.

hahaha poor Kriss, i bet he cant wait till release day

*waits for inevitable analogy*
Kriss conspires with the devil clearly.

Wheres Waldo?

God is this still going round in the same circles...

There is no alternative.....

Oh i know its madness, the funny...

I'm honestly not having a go, it just made me chuckle.

On a different note, I'm no longer anti-steam. (I'm still against lack of choice.)

I downloaded it last night. Redeemed my log-in details I used for FM2009 very easily, and test downloaded FM2009. It surprised me at how much better it is than last time I used it. Very easy to use. It also is very good how even though my FM2009 was a boxed copy, I could still download & install via steam (I uninstalled and lost the disc before I moved house).

Don't want to sound like a fanboy but I was really impressed and would urge others to give it a try and not to cut their nose off to spite their face.

If you love FM then it really seems to be a very minor inconvenience, if an inconvenience at all. I understand the moral standpoint people are well within their rights to take, but I personally will not be doing without FM for this reason.

I just feel sorry for those without internet connection available to them.

[x42bn6]

Fill your boots then i guess, i'm sure another 30 pages of this will make a huge difference to the outcome for FM12.

It will - it takes attention away from the game proper, and the loss of goodwill is never a good thing. It is easy to lose goodwill, and hard to regain it.

All it suggests is that those who think it is a good idea simply aren't doing a good-enough job at convincing those who think it is a bad idea.

[Menion]

Some of the comments here are a bit far fetched.

I myself don't really see the problem. The only case for an argument is if you do not have internet at home.

[Eugene Tyson]

Delay piracy, is alright with me.
Released pirated before it was shipped, i get that too.
Larger percentage have pre-ordered the game....no problem understanding that.
How many people? No idea what so ever.

But none of that was the answer to the question(s)

The quote said "....be able to play it .

I was just wondering what the logic in, what was in the quotation marks, was.
Just didn't get it. That's all

Well that was poorly worded, my apologies on that.

[greenone]

An opinion, not a statement. And perhaps poorly worded.

The idea of Steam is to delay piracy.

Last year or the year before the game was released via pirate parties before the game shipped. This resulted in pre-orders (lots of them) being cancelled.

This year they have said that more people have pre-ordered the game (a much larger percentage) since they announced it would be available through Steam authentication.

How many people do you think use Steam for other games? And they would risk having their account suspended or banned if a hacked game was found through Steam... I'd imagine.


The use of Steam will delay the pirates from hacking the game. Maybe by an hour. Maybe by a day. Maybe 3 days?

Fact is more people have pre-ordered this year. And coming up to 21st October they don't expect pre-orders to be cancelled as has happened in the past.

If that was the case then surely you would make the game download only and not allow prerelease downloads? As soon as the game has gone gold the pirate's could get their hands on the game if they have contacts wherever the physical copies are being made. Equally what's to stop them downloading it from steam prerelease and getting to work on it straight away?

[x42bn6]

Some of the comments here are a bit far fetched.

Which ones?

I myself don't really see the problem. The only case for an argument is if you do not have internet at home.

In your opinion. Remember that the world isn't made up of 6 billion Menions.

[milnerpoint]

I'm honestly not having a go, it just made me chuckle.

i know must-resist-post button!!!
Fair play adding all those quotes in tho, i couldnt be bothered with that effort!!

[Barside]

Why are you accusing dissenters of trolling? We're not trolling - we're raising our concerns. Just as we are entitled to do so, just as you are entitled to argue against those concerns.

Like it or not, there are two sides to an argument and you don't win by calling the other side a "bunch of trolls".

Both sides are trolling & that has been the case for more than a day now, nothing has progressed, I've seen factually inaccurate information & statistics mentioned by both parties in this thread in an attempt to add validity to their point of view.

The fact that SI/Sega guys are not actively involved in this thread should speak volumes, their decision is made, it will not be changed so I see no point in the same people making the same points over & over again.

I understand that people need to have a forum to put their points across but there has little or no new content in this thread for quite some time, in the absence of an authority figure bringing things to a conclusion I feel it is incumbent on the community to allow things to calm down.

The reason it goes round in circles is that the dissenters can't be convinced.

The burden of proof is always on those positing the change. The question "why is this good for me?" needs to be answered, rather than "why do you think it is bad?"

All that needs to be answered is: I don't use/like Steam. Why is it beneficial for me to be forced into using Steam?

There is no immediate benefit to you for moving to Steam only activation, this is a commercial product & based on the figures that SI/Sega have their revenue will benefit from this.

The planned long term benefit to you is that you might have a better product should that product remain in development due to the increase revenue hopefully resulting in an increase development budget.

[eddymunster]

i know must-resist-post button!!!
Fair play adding all those quotes in tho, i couldnt be bothered with that effort!!

I'm at work, what do you expect me to do to pass the time? Work? What am I some kind of mug?

[fcunitedfan]

I really don't see the problem here. So you have to install another program to play the game. So what? Would you rather everyone be able to play pirate copies of the game? If they just said "You know what, download pirate copies of the game if you like. We don't mind losing all our paying customers" would that make you happier than them trying to stop piracy of the game and keep their business going. If I have to download a program which prevents others from playing illegal copies of the game, I don't mind doing so. It could be worse. It could have been a program we have to pay to use, or some obscure program that nobody has ever heard of. At least Steam is a well known and widely used program, which is reliable. For all the rage quiters, stop being so shallow minded. I bet the majority of you have never even used Steam before. It's nowhere near as bad as you all make out. Infact it's not bad at all.

[roykela]

Well that was poorly worded, my apologies on that.

No need to apologize. It's easy to get caught up in the circle here

[Eugene Tyson]

On a different note, I'm no longer anti-steam. (I'm still against lack of choice.)

YAY finally someone who tried it!

We're all against lack of choice. But that lack of choice is put there as a control measure to delay piracy.

A lack of choice is due to a lack of options to prevent piracy, and that's for any software company.

So to delay this, they put in strict controls. Yeh it annoys some people. Some people won't be able to use it.

But as others have said - it won't stop the piracy. I just hope that people who do pirate the game are the ones that can't legitimately use Steam. And that when they do get get internet access they do buy it.

[milnerpoint]

I'm at work, what do you expect me to do to pass the time? Work? What am I some kind of mug?

I have the exact same problem!! Folk in the office must think i write a lot of big emails

[Kriss]

I'm at work, what do you expect me to do to pass the time? Work? What am I some kind of mug?

I used to look forward to work as 8 hours of solid FML playing

[Eugene Tyson]

If that was the case then surely you would make the game download only and not allow prerelease downloads? As soon as the game has gone gold the pirate's could get their hands on the game if they have contacts wherever the physical copies are being made. Equally what's to stop them downloading it from steam prerelease and getting to work on it straight away?

I've thought about that before. It had crossed my mind when this post went live and I read it and thought that immediately.

I've said from the start that I don't think this control measure of Steam only activation will actually stop/delay/prevent piracy. But SI, Sega and Steam all seem to think it will delay it enough to boost sales and stop people cancelling pre-orders. And the number they are hoping for is to stop a quarter of the people pirating the software, which they reckon will double the sales. And that's the figure they came up with, they have the stats.

FM12 will access Steam, people might be put off to a hacked version if it has the possibility of causing their Steam account being banned?

[Barside]

I'm at work, what do you expect me to do to pass the time? Work? What am I some kind of mug?

We can swap places if you wish, I'm still looking for work after being made redundant.

Not all bad though, my FM career save has moved along quite nicely.

[eddymunster]

I used to look forward to work as 8 hours of solid FML playing

I'm just wandering if they'll get suspicious when I upgrade my work PC F.O.C on release day? I need more than 1GB of RAM.

[Kriss]

Equally what's to stop them downloading it from steam prerelease and getting to work on it straight away?

Very obvious if you think about the key component.

[cemendur88]

If SI are doing it the same as other games, pre-release piracy will be stopped probably by not having the game exe on the disks. That would be a day one "patch" download. So even if pirates got hold of the disks before release, there would be no exe for them to crack.

[eddymunster]

We can swap places if you wish, I'm still looking for work after being made redundant.

Not all bad though, my FM career save has moved along quite nicely.

Sorry to hear that mate, happened to me 18 months ago. I just fell very lucky, and I'm in a profession where people who do my job are usually in demand. It's getting to the point where there's more workers than jobs now though.

Any way, getting a bit off track.

[Kriss]

One irrefutable fact has been proven today thanks to remarkable keyboard skills and a bloke who admits he doesn't go to work to work, hats off to eddy for proving that milnerpoint talks too long, too loud and too often

[eddymunster]

One irrefutable fact has been proven today thanks to remarkable keyboard skills and a bloke who admits he doesn't go to work to work, hats off to eddy for proving that milnerpoint talks too long, too loud and too often

Hey, hang on now, I'm at work. I at least turn up.

Edit: read your post properly now.

I can type, but apparently not read.

[x42bn6]

Both sides are trolling & that has been the case for more than a day now, nothing has progressed, I've seen factually inaccurate information & statistics mentioned by both parties in this thread in an attempt to add validity to their point of view.

The fact that SI/Sega guys are not actively involved in this thread should speak volumes, their decision is made, it will not be changed so I see no point in the same people making the same points over & over again.

I understand that people need to have a forum to put their points across but there has little or no new content in this thread for quite some time, in the absence of an authority figure bringing things to a conclusion I feel it is incumbent on the community to allow things to calm down.

SI and Sega are not required to post on these forums, and even if they have made their decision, we should still be entitled to air grievances. Even if something has been decided, it doesn't mean it will remain that way forever.

It doesn't matter if a thread goes round in circles - that's a sign that the dissenters can't be convinced.

There is no immediate benefit to you for moving to Steam only activation, this is a commercial product & based on the figures that SI/Sega have their revenue will benefit from this.

The planned long term benefit to you is that you might have a better product should that product remain in development due to the increase revenue hopefully resulting in an increase development budget.

False logic. Assuming revenue does increase, why is that a reason for me to buy FM12?

If I buy FM12, then revenue will increase by the assumption. If I don't buy FM12, then revenue will still increase by the assumption.

You aren't answering the question - what's in it for me?

[milnerpoint]

One irrefutable fact has been proven today thanks to remarkable keyboard skills and a bloke who admits he doesn't go to work to work, hats off to eddy for proving that milnerpoint talks too long, too loud and too often

Is that a personal attack, can i report you somewhere for that???
Dont make me use another car analogy!

[Eugene Tyson]

Is that a personal attack, can i report you somewhere for that???
Dont make me use another car analogy!

Kriss mentioned seat belts earlier.

[Kriss]

Is that a personal attack, can i report you somewhere for that???
Dont make me use another car analogy!

Of course you can report me, guess where the report goes

[milnerpoint]

Of course you can report me, guess where the report goes

Im beginning to agree with lord rowell, something definitely does not fit here.

[Barside]

@ x42bn6

There is nothing in it for you personally, end of story.

You may have noticed that I am one of those who is also not happy with the decision however I realised that constantly repeating my stance & demanding a reason why I should accept the decision Sega have made was futile. SI are now fully aware that a minority of the forum is unhappy with the decision & I trust they will take this on board when making plans for future releases, I seen no reason for the same old points to be trotted out by the same people unless they truly believe that he who shouts the loudest & longest wins the day.

[Jamie Cortez]

I wonder how many of you own Iphones, and installed Itunes and quicktime without a second thought.
How many of you use Facebook? thats not intrusive at all is it......

[x42bn6]

@ x42bn6

There is nothing in it for you personally, end of story.

And then you wonder why people complain, and why the thread is as long as it is.

There are a set of people who are unhappy at this decision, for good reason, and they are being told to accept it or "bugger off".

The attitude taken against those that are unhappy is rather shocking in all honesty... Go against the status quo, and get shouted at because they are happy, and you aren't.

You may have noticed that I am one of those who is also not happy with the decision however I realised that constantly repeating my stance & demanding a reason why I should accept the decision Sega have made was futile. SI are now fully aware that a minority of the forum is unhappy with the decision & I trust they will take this on board when making plans for future releases, I seen no reason for the same old points to be trotted out by the same people unless they truly believe that he who shouts the loudest & longest wins the day.

In reality, it is... If it is a sustained level of unhappiness, then it is more likely to raise concerns.

Concerns and complaints help the game's future quality. The more, the better. Complainants shouldn't need to employ self-censorship. If you have something to say, say it.

[x42bn6]

I wonder how many of you own Iphones, and installed Itunes and quicktime without a second thought.
How many of you use Facebook? thats not intrusive at all is it......

Facebook provides us with many useful capabilities in exchange for a loss of privacy. Just like any piece of software or service that isn't in the public domain.

Facebook is therefore seen as acceptable to the mainstream (but not to everybody, of course).

Besides, two wrongs don't make a right - "Facebook does it, so it's OK" is never a good line to trot out.

[afced7]

It doesn't matter if a thread goes round in circles - that's a sign that the dissenters can't be convinced.

It's actually a sign that not ALL the dissenters can be convinced. Several people have already said that once they've read up on steam/installed it themselves they're no longer anti-steam.

[SuperStoffer]

And then you wonder why people complain, and why the thread is as long as it is.

There are a set of people who are unhappy at this decision, for good reason, and they are being told to accept it or "bugger off".

The attitude taken against those that are unhappy is rather shocking in all honesty... Go against the status quo, and get shouted at because they are happy, and you aren't.

Well said

[greenone]

I wonder how many of you own Iphones, and installed Itunes and quicktime without a second thought.
How many of you use Facebook? thats not intrusive at all is it......

don't have any of them for that very reason.

[Barside]

It's actually a sign that not ALL the dissenters can be convinced. Several people have already said that once they've read up on steam/installed it themselves they're no longer anti-steam.

I'm heading in that direction, my original concerns were related to the very annoying compatibility issues I suffered when I first installed Steam, after an exchanged of messages with someone who's opinion I trust & decided to install the latest client to see how things have moved on, so far so good.

[eddymunster]

don't have any of them for that very reason.

So do you always buy CD's or are you not really a music buyer?

[Barnzy]

So I need to be in Steam to play the game everytime I play? I take it offline mode restricts doesnt use as much memory as online mode?

I have ACD abut whats open on my computer at any one time, this wont help

[Super Bladesman]

So I need to be in Steam to play the game everytime I play? I take it offline mode restricts doesnt use as much memory as online mode?

I have ACD abut whats open on my computer at any one time, this wont help

It's a good job your OCD isn't about spelling

[milnerpoint]

So I need to be in Steam to play the game everytime I play? I take it offline mode restricts doesnt use as much memory as online mode?

I have ACD abut whats open on my computer at any one time, this wont help

yeah in offline mode on my laptop, when the steam window is not open it uses 15mb or memory, window open about 110mb, online its a touch higher, about 18mb window closed.

[x42bn6]

It's actually a sign that not ALL the dissenters can be convinced. Several people have already said that once they've read up on steam/installed it themselves they're no longer anti-steam.

Well, yes, but then again, everyone has different requirements to be convinced.

[Eugene Tyson]

Do we have to qualify why we respond?

[x42bn6]

Do we have to qualify why we respond?

No, but it would be nice if everyone did.

[Barnzy]

It's a good job your OCD isn't about spelling

I'm dyselexic

[greenone]

So do you always buy CD's or are you not really a music buyer?

cd's or preferably vinyl

[aaron70]

You're not it seems the obvious solution, there are very good reasons why they decided to go Steam only (at least this time round) I know most of those reasons but can't divulge them all.

The security and secrecy that surrounds the release of any new game is akin to that which existed in the cold war, so they say as little as possible and people are reluctant to talk at all in case they give something away (I'm not making that up)

You say it's about money, it is and it should be, but please note they're trying to increase profit by increasing sales and not by putting the price up (when did the price of FM last go up in real terms?)

They are not claiming that this will prevent piracy, but if you have any in depth knowledge of how piracy affects sales you'll start to realise why this approach has been effective for other titles and therefore is likely to be for FM.

As always it's on trial and if it's not effective, or better solutions appear it won't last, my feeling is that it will and that people need to come to terms with that.

As to the evils of Steam, it'll be problematic for a tiny minority and it's incumbent on Steam kicked along by Sega to resolve any issues, they have a good track record for doing so in spite allegations to the contrary.

The objections to installing it are actually irrational given what it does because you already have more intrusive things compulsarily on your PC and because if your PC is good enough to run FM it's good enough to run it via Steam with no noticeable performance issues.
Mac users get more issues than PC users, well they do with almost any software, that's a fact because the support and investment devoted to Mac is proportional to it's market share in almost all cases.

The natural resistance to being told you must have something on your PC to play FM is totally understandable, it's a basic trait of human nature to resist doing anything you're ordered to.
I mentioned seat belts but there are many other examples of people hating to be told to do something even though they actually know it's good for them, most people who actually love FM will get over that and (like me) install Steam and forget they ever had concerns over it.
The few who cut off their noses to spite their faces will soon not have any new game to play, bar niche ones because this is the way it's going to be, that's their choice.

I feel desperately sorry for those who actually will lose the ability to play FM but their numbers are infinitesimally small and as has been said the same situation is created by other things like increased minimum spec so it's not unique to this.

Thank you for this post Kriss. This is a balanced answer which shows both sides have valid viewpoints, though I still believe the defense has been rather dismissive.
I know you are not speaking on behalf of SI, but I wish we got the same kind of responses from them on this issue, which we used to do back in the day.

I personally will let this matter drop now. I have always been against the decision not because I hate Steam, but because this marks a direction away from the community that SI once had. This seems to be a sign that the community is now just a big pound sign. I always have felt the community has made the game what it is and often has been responsible for improving it. In the future I may well get FM12 if it appears the actual mechanics of Steam go well, but I will never feel the same way about the game creators of SI as I did before.
Thanks again Kriss.

[tom_numbers]

cd's or preferably vinyl

Can we end the CD analogies? I have Steam, but buy CD's rather than download music They're nearly as bad as the car comparisions.

[x42bn6]

The objections to installing it are actually irrational given what it does because you already have more intrusive things compulsarily on your PC and because if your PC is good enough to run FM it's good enough to run it via Steam with no noticeable performance issues.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because we have intrusive stuff on our PC doesn't mean we should have other not-as-intrusive stuff on our PC.

Justify why this not-as-intrusive stuff is good.

I mentioned seat belts but there are many other examples of people hating to be told to do something even though they actually know it's good for them,

For non-Steam users, why is it good for them to be forced to register using Steam?

We're not looking for "it's not bad for you" answers - we're looking for "why is it good" answers.

The seat-belt analogy isn't meaningful since it's required by law in many countries, and there's a definite benefit in wearing a seat-belt (i.e. you are less likely to die in a crash).

A more apt analogy would be requiring to purchase your seat-belts from a favoured supplier whom you know will be a controversial option amongst some of your consumer base.

The few who cut off their noses to spite their faces will soon not have any new game to play, bar niche ones because this is the way it's going to be, that's their choice.

You are suggesting it's an overreaction (the idiom cutting your nose to spite your face) to not install a game given legitimate concerns. If someone has privacy or security concerns over a piece of software, then it's not an overreaction to avoid it. It's a legitimate and cautious reaction and not cutting your nose to spite your face. Not everyone thinks like you - you have no right to say it's an overreaction, since not everyone has the same level of privacy and security concerns as you.

[Barside]

I'm dyselexic

or a lousy typist

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

At a huge risk of repeating myself....why must Steam stay active?, why was the "activate & remove" option not adopted (other that because Steam wanted it that way?

[x42bn6]

At a huge risk of repeating myself....why must Steam stay active?, why was the "activate & remove" option not adopted (other that because Steam wanted it that way?

I think thi$ i$ a very hard que$tion...

That pretty much is the only reason I'd imagine.

[tom_numbers]

Justify why this not-as-intrusive stuff is good.

To the individual user looking at it short term, it is not good. However, the disruption was hoped to be minimal. To the company making the game, it is good. They have their reasons. They hope that these benefits for the company will help them to produce a better game. So no, x42bn6, if none of the points mentioned in the last 30 pages seem good, then there are zero benefits to you as an individual to install Steam. It was just hoped that there would be no to little negatives either.

At a huge risk of repeating myself....why must Steam stay active?, why was the "activate & remove" option not adopted (other that because Steam wanted it that way?

AFAIK tiger, that just isn't the way Steam works. An activate and remove technique is no better than the product key system, which evidently hasn't been working for SI/Sega. Steam double checks the authentication every time, thus adding an extra layer of security.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

I think thi$ i$ a very hard que$tion...

That pretty much is the only reason I'd imagine.

Not a hard question, but a question if answered honestly will have an unsatisfactory answer I fear.

[eddymunster]

I think thi$ i$ a very hard que$tion...

That pretty much is the only reason I'd imagine.

Subtle. But I see what you did there.

[x42bn6]

[Quoted out of order for ease]

To the individual user looking at it short term, it is not good. However, the disruption is hoped to be minimal.

So no, x42bn6, if none of the points mentioned in the last 30 pages seem good, then there are zero benefits to you as an individual to install Steam.

Thank you. Now understand why there is so much anger. The disruption being minimal is meaningless if people don't buy the software.

No meaningful benefits have been stated in the last 30 pages from my point of view - so please understand why people like me are annoyed.

To the company making the game, it is good. They have their reasons. They hope that these benefits for the company will help them to produce a better game.

That's cool, but that's nothing to do with me.

Nobody really cares about SI's bottom line - we all know it makes money, and we all know it's not going out of business any time soon. We only care about what goes on our PCs.

[Barside]

@ x42bn6

I appreciate that you have security concerns with Steam, I do not share this view but for the sake of the discussion we shall assume that Steam can & does gain access to any number of files on your PC that are not required for the purpose of playing any given game.

My question is that as someone who has presented themself as a rather tech savvy individual are you not in a position to enhance the security or encryption protocol's on files that contain sensitive personal information?

[Barnzy]

or a lousy typist

haha, actually Bristolian

[Menion]

Which ones?



In your opinion. Remember that the world isn't made up of 6 billion Menions.

As with everything, it's only an opinion. Some opinions are just more relevant than overs, fact (gets out his sheet of paper).

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

To the individual user looking at it short term, it is not good. However, the disruption was hoped to be minimal. To the company making the game, it is good. They have their reasons. They hope that these benefits for the company will help them to produce a better game. So no, x42bn6, if none of the points mentioned in the last 30 pages seem good, then there are zero benefits to you as an individual to install Steam. It was just hoped that there would be no to little negatives either.



AFAIK tiger, that just isn't the way Steam works. An activate and remove technique is no better than the product key system, which evidently hasn't been working for SI/Sega. Steam double checks the authentication every time, thus adding an extra layer of security.

Apologies, clearly I am missing the point here but how does Offline game playing work then. Surely if you went "offline" and never went online again the result would be the same?

[Menion]

Apologies, clearly I am missing the point here but how does Offline game playing work then. Surely if you went "offline" and never went online again the result would be the same?

You would still need steam installed on your computer.

[Barside]

No meaningful benefits have been stated in the last 30 pages from my point of view - so please understand why people like me are annoyed.

I mentioned many pages earlier that Steam can assist SI in getting a full picture of the systems being used to play FM which in turn will aid them in developing the game, if 75%+ of FM gamers are using a 62bit OS then there will be a reason to start looking a developing a game code able to take full advantage of the increase performance potential, if a similar percentage are able to deal with graphics far beyond the current requirements SI I'm sure they would look to develop that aspect of the game.

Steam will hopefully help provide a better game.

[tom_numbers]

Thank you. Now understand why there is so much anger. The disruption being minimal is meaningless if people don't buy the software.

No meaningful benefits have been stated in the last 30 pages from my point of view - so please understand why people like me are annoyed.

Yeah, I get your points. Unfortunately for you, I think it will be a minority of people who reject FM on the basis of Steam being used, though we'll have to wait and see.

[x42bn6]

@ x42bn6

I appreciate that you have security concerns with Steam, I do not share this view but for the sake of the discussion we shall assume that Steam can & does gain access to any number of files on your PC.

My question is that as someone who has presented them self has a rather tech savvy individual are you not in a position to enhance the security or encryption protocol's on files that contain sensitive personal information?

That would be down to Steam's privacy policy really, but then again, do you really trust these things?

There is no real easy way of restricting what a process can access... You could start Steam as a limited user that cannot read or write files outside of what it needs, and wrap it round one of the many "runas" utilities out there. Programs are run at a user level - if you a user can see something, then any programs executed as "you" can see that too. It's a flaw but Windows (nor Unix, I'd add) makes it easy to enforce this.

I don't believe this is a particular problem with Steam (unless you have issues with it storing your PC configuration - I generally wouldn't, but can see why some might), however. It's really down to the anti-hacking mechanisms of the game, rather than the anti-hacking mechanisms of Steam (if it indeed has any).

Personally? I have sensitive information on my hard disk - my externally-encrypted hard disk, that is.

[tom_numbers]

Apologies, clearly I am missing the point here but how does Offline game playing work then. Surely if you went "offline" and never went online again the result would be the same?

Kind of, though as plenty of people have pointed out, Steam does have a tendency to try to force itself back online. In the most obscure of explanations, if you run Steam, FM has to ask Steam for permission to open before it actually will - if you're online, it checks you're legit. If you're not, it assumes you are since you were last time you were online (from the login details provided).

[x42bn6]

As with everything, it's only an opinion. Some opinions are just more relevant than overs, fact (gets out his sheet of paper).

And if you have an opinion on something, you are hardly in a position to judge who is right and who is wrong...

I mentioned many pages earlier that Steam can assist SI in getting a full picture of the systems being used to play FM which in turn will aid them in developing the game, if 75%+ of FM gamers are using a 62bit OS then there will be a reason to start looking a developing a game code able to take full advantage of the increase performance potential, if a similar percentage are able to deal with graphics far beyond the current requirements SI I'm sure they would look to develop that aspect of the game.

Steam will hopefully help provide a better game.

You don't need to force Steam to do this... Thanks to various bits of mathematics, you do not actually need everyone to undergo a poll - you can take smaller samples and generalise, and as long as you design your survey correctly, it's quite accurate.

However, that still doesn't help me. I, a non-Steam user who is sceptical of Steam, still has no reason to switch - SI are going to get a good picture of the hardware of their userbase anyway, regardless of whether I buy FM12 or not.

Yeah, I get your points. Unfortunately for you, I think it will be a minority of people who reject FM on the basis of Steam being used, though we'll have to wait and see.

It will be a minority, but there will be longer-lasting repercussions down the line through loss of goodwill. Plenty of companies have wished they'd listened to customers more in the past.

[Barside]

I'm lost, if you're confident that your personal information is secure why do you have concerns about Steams privacy policy? If they know nothing about you & cannot access any sensitive data surely your concerns are unfounded?

You don't need to force Steam to do this... Thanks to various bits of mathematics, you do not actually need everyone to undergo a poll - you can take smaller samples and generalise, and as long as you design your survey correctly, it's quite accurate.

I just took a stab in the dark on my example, I guess we are stuck with the one undeniable fact that Steam allows you to play FM, that is it's one true benefit, granted that benefit has been artificially created by the introduction of the activation protocol but just because you may not like the answer it does not make it incorrect.

[x42bn6]

I'm lost, if you're confident that your personal information is secure why do you have concerns about Steams privacy policy? If they know nothing about you & cannot access any sensitive data surely your concerns are unfounded?

Because I don't store everything on encrypted storage, including browsing history and most of my documents. I only store sensitive stuff (i.e. bank documents).

My point is that I cannot easily isolate what Steam accesses from what I access, without jumping through many hoops.

I'm not sure why you're bringing this up - I have no issues with Steam in this regard, since it's the games who pick what anti-hacking software they use.

[Barside]

I'm sorry, with all the various objections that have been flying around I was under the impression that your overriding concern was that of personal data security, your past posts appeared to suggest that was the case but if this is not a concern then I apologise.

[eddymunster]

@ x42bn6 - The benefit of Steam is you get to play FM2012. Any other benefits of steam are on the "about" section of steams website. However, not all of them will apply to everyone & for some people none of the benefits will apply.

[x42bn6]

I'm sorry, with all the various objections that have been flying around I was under the impression that your overriding concern was that of personal data security, your recent post appeared to suggest that was the case.

Personal data in the sense that it stores a username and password on the Steam system, in addition to many other bits of information. Even if it's fake, it's still possible to correlate it with my "x42bn6" moniker with a bit of suspicion and luck. Compromised passwords are also an issue - people simply reuse passwords (not I of course) - if one is broken, the keys to many other accounts of yours are broken too.

I am forced to accept that Steam will secure my details securely, and that my login credentials are transmitted to the Steam server and are vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks as well as sniffers on either end.

Paranoia? Not at all - unless Sega didn't realise already, one of their own systems was hacked - it will happen to Steam eventually, if it hasn't already.

You see, I trust SI, but not Steam - I have established that SI write nice software that makes me happy - I know this as I have played FM many times. I am now being asked to trust Steam for the sake of it. It's not going to happen, sorry - I need reasons.

And of course, remember that I am not the only one in this position.

[nessi]

The objections to installing it are actually irrational given what it does because you already have more intrusive things compulsarily on your PC

Can't see much logic in this argument. First, if I decide to have those "more intrusive things" it's because I've decided I'm OK (not happy, just OK) with giving up some privacy in exchange for valuable services I'm interested into. Which is not the case with steam.

Secondly, this only makes me more determined not to have other intrusive software especially when I find them useless.

Maybe steam is the future of videogames, well I don't really care as I don't play videogames except for the CM/FM series. For the last 10+ years I could just go to a shop, buy a disc, put it in my PC and play when/where I wanted. If I can't do this anymore then I'm done with FM. Simple as that.

[x42bn6]

@ x42bn6 - The benefit of Steam is you get to play FM2012.

That's begging the question - I want to know what's the benefits of being forced to use Steam to play FM12 - the answer isn't "because you get to play FM12".

If someone is blackmailed into sparing their own lives, then it is not a valid justification for blackmail because their lives will be spared.

Any other benefits of steam are on the "about" section of steams website. However, not all of them will apply to everyone & for some people none of the benefits will apply.

For some of us, we fall into the "none" since FM is one of the few games we actually care about. For me:

- "Instantly access your favourite games" - Well, if they're on my PC, it's more instant than if it was on Steam!
- "Join the Steam community" - Why? I just want to play FM12. I'd join a community for something I'd be interested in, and this forum is the forum for FM12.
- "Chat with your friends while gaming" - FM12 can be windowed and there's better mechanisms for discussion.
- "Automatic game updates" - It's not an advantage as SI have botched patches in the past. I'd prefer to wait and let the patch be "beta-tested".
- "Enjoy Steam-only special offers" - I just want to play FM12.
- "Play your favourite games on your Mac" - FM11 was available on the Mac... This isn't an advantage.

[BenjC]

You see, I trust SI, but not Steam - I have established that SI write nice software that makes me happy - I know this as I have played FM many times. I am now being asked to trust Steam for the sake of it. It's not going to happen, sorry - I need reasons.

You say you "trust" SI because they write nice software but you can't "trust" Steam.

First thing to point out it's Valve you're "trusting", Steam is a product, not a company. Valve are arguably the most successful and well respected games and software companies of all times, they didn't get to that position by making shoddy software that harms people's computers.

[x42bn6]

Maybe steam is the future of videogames,

I think digital downloads are the future, but remain unconvinced that Steam itself is the future. In fact, I would be a little worried if it's the only future - look at Microsoft.

Steam may not hold such a dominant position in the future - look at Altavista, MySpace, Yahoo!, AOL and so on - nobody saw them falling a decade or so ago. You can even see Microsoft struggling now. Google might struggle in the future, and even Apple might.

I don't want SI to lock themselves into Steam - I want choice. I don't want to see Sega and Steam getting into the same cosy bed together.

[afced7]

Can't see much logic in this argument. First, if I decide to have those "more intrusive things" it's because I've decided I'm OK (not happy, just OK) with giving up some privacy in exchange for valuable services I'm interested into. Which is not the case with steam.

The valuable service that you're interested in is FM here. The real question is 'are you ok with giving up some privacy in exchange for the ability to play Football Manager?' If the answer is no then you won't be able to play the game, just like you wouldn't be able to enjoy any other service if you felt it was too big of an intrusion into your privacy.

[x42bn6]

You say you "trust" SI because they write nice software but you can't "trust" Steam.

First thing to point out it's Valve you're "trusting", Steam is a product, not a company. Valve are arguably the most successful and well respected games and software companies of all times, they didn't get to that position by making shoddy software that harms people's computers.

Fine, replace "Steam" with "Valve". The same argument applies.

I still don't trust them - I have had no reason to. Sure, they've got a good reputation and all, but that's meaningless to me - I need to personally experience it. Besides, everyone is anxious or cautious should they go for something new for the first time.

Microsoft, Intel, IBM and AMD are incredibly successful companies with good reputations. Do I trust them? Hell no. Do I use their software (and hardware)? Yes. But I'd prefer not to - it is just that the benefits outweigh the negatives.

I'm not convinced this is the case with Steam.

[afced7]

I still don't trust them - I have had no reason to. Sure, they've got a good reputation and all, but that's meaningless to me - I need to personally experience it.

You have a bit of a dilemma then, in that you need to experience steam for yourself to be able to trust the software, but won't be able to experience steam because you already mistrust it.

[Barside]

That's begging the question - I want to know what's the benefits of being forced to use Steam to play FM12 - the answer isn't "because you get to play FM12"

The use of Steam benefits SI & them alone, how often do you need to hear this?

[Kriss]

I don't want SI to lock themselves into Steam - I want choice. I don't want to see Sega and Steam getting into the same cosy bed together.

Fair enough but as it's their business it's their choice to do so, I'm guessing they did it for what they see as sound business reasons.

For FM12 it's a done deal so no amount of protest here will change that.

After FM12 it'll be judged for success or failure and the future will depend on that plus the possibility of better alternatives if any appear.

[eddymunster]

That's begging the question - I want to know what's the benefits of being forced to use Steam to play FM12 - the answer isn't "because you get to play FM12".

Sorry, I didn't really put that very well.

Unfortunately, SI/SEGA have already made that decision. And I had many similar concerns as you (which I've expressed over the last however many pages), and also am not keen on Steam being essential.

All I was trying to get at, is that if you don't get steam you won't be able to get FM2012. Which is unfortunate, but ultimately it is a decision that each individual must make by weighing up the pros and cons, like any decision.

And in fairness, why do SI/SEGA have to make it beneficial for us to use steam? It is beneficial for us to use steam now because without it we can't play FM. If your personal cons outweigh the pros (being able to play FM) then unfortunately you only have one route to go down. Don't buy FM2012.

What are your specific issues with using Steam? Previous experience of it? Moral objection to being forced to use it? Security issues?

[x42bn6]

You have a bit of a dilemma then, in that you need to experience steam for yourself to be able to trust the software, but won't be able to experience steam because you already mistrust it.

Agreed, but that's the same dilemma for every company out there - it needs to sucker-up to get new customers, and needs to sweet-talk them into staying.

Valve aren't doing that to me.

I distrust any DRM platform in-general, especially one requiring me to store credentials and potentially access credit card details.

The use of Steam benefits SI & them alone, how often do you need to hear this?

That's the point I'm trying to make! There's no reason for me to trust it, which is why I complain. Which is why many others complain. And not everyone decides to throw in the towel and stay silent. Which is why it's not an overreaction. Which is why they shouldn't be told to "bugger off". And so on.

[Barside]

I still don't trust them - I have had no reason to. Sure, they've got a good reputation and all, but that's meaningless to me - I need to personally experience it. Besides, everyone is anxious or cautious should they go for something new for the first time.

How do you propose attaining this personal experience of Valve's product? Much like a child who has never eaten asparagus refusing to eat it because they do not like the taste you've already refused point blank to use it.

[tom_numbers]

Agreed, but that's the same dilemma for every company out there - it needs to sucker-up to get new customers, and needs to sweet-talk them into staying.

Valve aren't doing that to me.

I distrust any DRM platform in-general, especially one requiring me to store credentials and potentially access credit card details.

In fairness, SI (a company you trust) and saying they're trustworthy. You can't get much better than a recommendation.